BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:09 PM

"I have just produced a string of quotes where I clearly say I "deplore" it."
You have also made a string of quotes designed to present the apalling stuff as harmless by which you have well and truly your deploring the bullshit it is - pretty well on par with drowning us all in your crocodile tears for the Homs victims while at the same time sondoning the sale of arms to the killer and proposing that Britain provides the wherewithal to bang up the surviving protesters in his torture chambers.
Are you really unaware of how stupid you look making such contradictory claims?
Braindead Brucie
Both sides have committed war crimes - the relative seriousness of these are there for all top see.
One side has put its hands up to committing war crimes - the other has yet to and is unlikely to.
Amerca and Israel are now in cahoots to make sure that an enquiry into Israel's latest behaviour doesn't take place.
Israel's response to the information that I.D.F. death squads have been targeting the survivors of their ethnic cleansing campaign has been to arrest the Israeli soldier who confirmed that it was taking place.
You are now employing diversionary tactics to avoid acknowledging this fact and to avoid even commenting on the figures Ivor has just put up.
Personally I have no time for Hamas and have never put up a single word in its favour.
You, on the other hand, have openly supported the Israeli atrocities that have taken place, recently, and in the past.
You have consistently attempted to offset criticism of an extremely right-wing regime by blaming the Jews and claiming all criticism of those atrocities and being "Antisemitic".
You had the temerity to ask if my family would be proud of my ideas - I trust you haven't got round to asking yourself if those of your people who perished in the Nazi ovens would be proud of your blaming them for what these bastards have turned Israel into in their name         
Now respond t facts or piss off - you have even less to say than Acheson the Arsehole (if that were humanly possible)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:22 PM

Jimmy,

The following are direct quotes from the video:

"For fear of being taken to the International Criminal Court for prosecution, Khraishi advised his interviewer that it was best all round if the issue was not raised with the U.N. In his own words, "each and every" Palestinian missile fired on Israel constitutes "a crime against humanity," while he admitted that Israel "followed the legal procedures" when carrying out retaliatory attacks against Hamas terrorists, who purposely embed themselves within civilian populations.

Even a Hamas spokesman admitted on a TV interview recently that: "The Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. As for the missiles launched from our side, we never warn anyone about where these missiles are about to fall or about the operations we carry out."

U.N. Watch, an NGO body that monitors the U.N., reported that Ambassador Ibrahim Khraishi wasn't coy in his assertions of Palestinian war crimes. As he said himself:

"I am not a candidate in any Palestinian elections, so I don't need to win popularity among the Palestinians. The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets."

Khraishi spelled out very clearly the fact that, in his opinion, the Israeli side followed proper war protocol, unlike the terrorist factions occupying Gaza:

"Please note that many of our people in Gaza appeared on TV and said that the Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. In such a case, if someone is killed, the law considers it a mistake rather than an intentional killing because [the Israelis] followed the legal procedures."





This is HAMAS stating that the Israeli attacks are NOT WAR CRIMES.

This is HAMAS stating that what Hamas does ARE WAR CRIMES.



DO YOU DENY THIS- YES OR NO?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:24 PM

You have also made a string of quotes designed to present the apalling stuff as harmless

Another lie Jim.
Of course it is not harmless and I would never suggest any such ridiculous thing.

Everything I stated is actual, accurate fact.
(Or will you quote one statement that is not?)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 01:41 AM

I expect the cals for an academic boycott of Israel to increase rapidly during the coming months.
The bosses of many universities in Israel have already told their students and staff who fought...and slaughtered ..in gaza that they are to receive special allowances and privileges aware ward for their efforts.
In contrast Palestinian schools have been destroyed, universities have been attacked and Palestinian school children killed in droves. Hundreds of thousands are in need of psychological help and of course have to try to get through next winter with out clean water, proper shelter and adequate food..and all this in a ruined city.
Thousands of children have been seriously wounded by the bombs, shells and missile strikes.
The boycott will help show that the children and their parents are not being forgotten.
Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 03:55 AM

"This is HAMAS stating that what Hamas does ARE WAR CRIMES."
No it is not
The ambassador makes it clear in his statement that it is his personal opinion and he is speaking on behalf of nobody but himself.
His point is a valid one - Hamas rockets are a war crime as war crimes are judged by U.N., though they have killed less than 20 people in 12 years.
Whether Israeli actions are war crimes remains to be seen.
The discrepancy between the casualties of both sides (exceeding 20 to one to date) and the number of non combatants, particularly women and children dead and injured indicates a massacre.
From the beginning, those at the receiving end have claimed the warnings given were less than useless.
Hospitals claimed they had no time to even begin to evacuate their patents before the announced attacks - many patients were killed and injured - one hospital for incurables simply declared it was staying put.
Shortly after the bombardments began, those on the ground said they simply had nowhere to go - all the likely refuges were already full to overflowing -thousands crowded onto open fields and beaches.
As far as established refuges - the organisers of one of the early U.N. shelters that was destroyed supplied the co-ordinates of the position to the Israelis 17 times, including on the morning of the attack.
They had been instructed by the Israelis to get everybody inside and stay were they were - and then they were bombarded - if that is not a war crime, I'm fucked if I know what is.
Incidents such as these have been common.
I have no idea what prompted the ambassador to say what he did, but he certainly was not speaking for Hamas, who have declared Israel's action a war-crime throughout.
The Israeli death squads constitute war Crimes - Israel has arrested the soldier who reported that they were taking place.
The use of flechette. DIME and White Phosphorus on civilians constitute war crimes.
The deliberate - or even indiscriminate targeting of non-combatants is a war crime.
The whole inhuman mess is a war crime, and what falls under permissible shouldn't be as far as civilian victims are concerned.
The Israeli army has behaved like uniformed thugs acting under the instructions of exactly the same brand of right-wing monsters that filled the ovens of Auschwitz.
Any Jew claiming that what has happened is in any way "Jewish", has disgraced the Jewish people by associating them with this slaughter.   
The United Nations has voted 29-1, with 17 countries abstaining, to set up a commission to investigate possible war crimes in this conflict.
Characteristically, Israel and the U.S. are attempting to prevent any enquiry from taking place.
There you go Weirdie Beardie - pick the bones out of that
Jim Carroll
Incidentally - your Ambassadors statement seems to have come from the somewhat shoddy 'Inquisitr' site which you chose not to link
It includes a film clip of the ambassador speaking, as do most sites carrying the story, including those from Israel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:47 AM

The use of flechette. DIME and White Phosphorus on civilians constitute war crimes.
The use of any weapons on civilians constitutes war crimes., but no evidence any of those used in Gaza this year.

The deliberate - or even indiscriminate targeting of non-combatants is a war crime.
Yes, but no evidence of IDF doing either.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:08 AM

"Yes, but no evidence of IDF doing either."
There is every evidence of both - has to be one or the other
Piss off Keith - you've done enough yto justify your wage packet as an Israeli propagandist.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:31 AM

No evidence of them targeting non-combatants Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:57 AM

BDS is an anti-semitic hateful movement calling for the desctruction of the State of Israel. AVAAZ has joined the campaign and endorsed it.

Not only does it provide a platform for the hateful campaign, it also goes through un-precedented steps to promote it sharing op-eds supporting BDS with AVAAZ members!

It is sickening for such a great organization to be used in such a horrible and hateful way.

Please-

Stop standing with Hamas Terrorism and start standing with Israeli democracy.
Stop standing with Palestinian Hatred and start standing with Historical Justice.
Stop standing with Anti-Israel Lies and start standing with HOPE.

Remove your support from the Boycott movement and start supporting the only democracy in the middle east, fighting for its right to exist and for the survival of liberal values in this chaotic area of the world!

Join the Campaign

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 08:51 AM

Now then, mad minnow. BDS is neither antisemitic (it calls for boycott and sanctions against Israel, not "Jews" - two million Arabs, Christians and none of the above live in Israel, remember?) nor does it call for the destruction of Israel (it wants boycott and sanctions until Israel complies with its international obligations). It's all there on the website, which you forgot to check out. Just because some frenetic Zionist starts a petition on AVAAZ, it doesn't make lies come true, chump.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:08 AM

I like the Desmond Tutu letter that accompanied the pro-BDS petition.
I signed it, and also donated to the Middle East Children's Alliance.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:19 AM

"No evidence of them targeting non-combatants Jim."
Then they are indiscriminately firing at everything that comes within range
From your great depth of wisdom, can you confirm that this is a war crime
Have you anything other than denial to offer as information?
Jim Carroll

INFRASTRUCTURE

CIVILIANS

FLEEING CIVILIANS

U S ROLE IN COVER_UP

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:27 AM

From your great depth of wisdom, can you confirm that this is a war crime

It would be if it was true, but it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 11:25 AM

So you are confirming that, in spite of past denials, Israel is indiscriminately firing on hospitals, schools and,.... well, everything in range really
That seems to have that sorted - put it on the out tray along with Sabta/Shatila, wite phosphorus, DIME and flechettes, et al.
No comment on the clips and none of your own to disprove them - same out-tray then
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 11:57 AM

Sorry, Jimmy boy.

Israel is neither " targeting non-combatants", NOR are they " indiscriminately firing at everything that comes within range" as YOU claim.


Haas on the other hand is deliberately targeting non-combatants, as well as using protected sites for military purposes in volition of the Geneva Conventions. You seem OK with that- after al, it is only Israeli non-combatants they TARGET- The hundreds of Gazan Palestinian civilians being killed by Hamas anti-personnel rockets that misfire are certainly NOT targeted at Gaza- that is just an unplanned byproduct of their strategy that they take full advantage of.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 12:03 PM

If there are legitimate targets present, then the attacks are not indiscriminate.

We know such facilities have been hit.
Some undoubtedly by faulty hamas rockets, but who knows how many?
Some undoubtedly because hamas was operating illegally close.
Israel denies any indiscriminate firing, so what evidence is there Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 12:32 PM

The National Union of Students in the UK has voted recenmtly to back the academic boycott of Israel.
It has been a long haul to win this vote but the British students are sickened at seeing their Palestinian contemporaries shot down by snipers and by IDF soldiers armed with everything from rubber bullets on the West bank to tank rounds and artillery in and around Gaza.
Not only have school students been shot down or blown up but their schools and colleges have been attacked on the West Bank and in Gaza.
Moreover their teachers and lecturers have been shot or arrested and thrown into cells often without even a trial.

And the Palestinian children are stranded in Gaza with little food , no shelter and facing a bleak winter and all kinds of illnesses and deadly diseases in the months ahead.

It is clear that across the world there is a grassroots movement gaining momentum to label Israel for what it is..an apartheid regime that not only oppresses the Palestinian people but is sanguine about the mass murder of its children and young people.

There is nothing anti semitic about this.

Indeed there are many Israeli citizens , both Jewish and non Jewish, who see the injustices done to the Palestinians on a daily basis [ the bulldozing of homes, theft of land, the roadblocks and 'security controls' , the casual shootings of Palestinians on the West Bank and the armed Zionist mobs terrorising villagers ] etc and they support the boycott.


In addition, across the world Jewish people are marching with their non Jewish friends and work mates to oppose the bombing of Gaza and the lifting of its blockade.
ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 01:59 PM

"Israel denies any indiscriminate firing, so what evidence is there Jim?"
Bck to the alternative then - they deliberately slaughtered 2000+ people and made a hugh swathe of Gaza unlivable.
Don't know who Haas is targeting - total rocket deaths by Hamas are less than 20 in 12 years and 100 Israelis in the fighting
"The hundreds of Gazan Palestinian civilians being killed by Hamas anti-personnel rockets that misfire are certainly NOT targeted at Gaza- that is just an unplanned byproduct of their strategy that they take full advantage of."
You have evidence of this other than Israeli claims - no?
Thought not.
We do know that Israeli soldiers have gone around shooting survivors, but don't suppose they count.
Have we finished with the "war crimes" bit then?
Suppose so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 02:25 PM

Israel says it targets Hamas, but Hamas hides among the people.

If they are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more male than female.
If they are lying, you would expect parity.
What do we find Jim?

If they are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more adults than children.
If they are lying, you would expect more children than adults.
What do we find Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 03:41 PM

Jimy boy does NOT deal in facts. He objects to them


If Israel was TRYING to kill Palestinian civilians, the death tole would be more like 1,500,000 dead now.

You keep saying how crowded Gaza is, and how there is NOWHERE to escape to, yet of 1,500,000 Gazans, with NO SHELTERS (Thanks again, Hamas!) constantly being shelled, about 2,000 have been killed ( How many by Hamas rockets and executioners) and about half of those were likely combatants ( see the figures from the previous time- Hamas is STILL claiming EXACTLY 82% civilians, just as they did last time. Boy, those Israelis are precise!

And as for not enough Israelis being killed, it is not due to a lack of Hamas effort- Rather it is because of the efforts Israel takes to DEFEND its population, and PROTECT THEM,UNLIKE HAMAS who use the civilian population to protect their weapons and fighters.


And where is YOUR evidence of ANY israelis "death squads", or "shooting survivors"?

POST IT.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 04:45 PM

"When I was in high school, my synagogue was firebombed, as was another about 20 miles away. A couple of years after I finished college, one of our synagogue members was held hostage by Arab militants who took over the building housing the Jewish organization where he worked.

I didn't grow up in Paris or Paraguay, but in a quiet suburb of Washington, D.C., and it's been almost 40 years since I last lived there. Which is the point: the dramatic surge in anti-Semitic violence prompted by war in Gaza and documented by a recent report from the Anti-Defamation League is not a one-time phenomenon. Rather, it's just the latest manifestation of decades of anti-Jewish prejudice deliberately instigated by Israel's opponents and indulged by the West.

The poisonous impact is deeply personal for every Diaspora Jew. My family and many others pay what I've dubbed the "Jew Tax;" that is, the portion of our suburban Chicago synagogue dues that goes for surveillance cameras, alarms and a security guard on duty during services and when kids are in Hebrew school.

Similar expenses burden synagogues and major Jewish community institutions in Washington, New York, Los Angeles, Miami and other areas where anti-Jewish violence or its threat is all too real. Some organizations take down identifying signs visible from major roads. Others, unable to hide, deploy other measures. One Jewish day school in a high-profile location protects its parking lot with thick steel gates designed to deter would-be car bombers. It is a depressing sight. The anti-Israel anti-Semites cannot put us in ghettos, but they've slowly forced us to build our own walls.

For the record, my home synagogue was firebombed in 1968 by garden variety anti-Semites, not anti-Zionists, while the recent firebombing of a Jewish center in France was an ostensibly anti-Zionist act. It is a distinction without a difference. The terrorists who took my fellow shul member hostage at B'nai B'rith headquarters in Washington back in 1977, killing two people in the process, sent a clear message about the definition of "Zionist" targets. These days, it's commonplace for Jewish institutions in Europe, South America and elsewhere to be surrounded by military-scale security precautions.

Indeed, if you go down the list of some 100 nations on six continents with affiliates of the World Jewish Congress, and the vast majority are places where anti-Zionist anti-Semites pose some level of threat, with or without a Mideast flare-up as an excuse.

Stop and consider that for a moment. No Christian, Muslim or practitioner of any other faith faces anything remotely close to the worldwide threat of unexpected violence that shadows Jewish religious and communal activities from Austria to Argentina to Australia -- and, yes, even in the United States. It is truly unprecedented.

So what can be done?

As Palestinians and Israelis continue to struggle to turn the Gaza cease-fire into something more permanent, Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal may have provided an inadvertent path forward. In his recent interview with U.S. journalist Charlie Rose, Meshaal wanted it clearly understood that Hamas is not anti-Semitic.

"We are not fanatics, we are not fundamentalists," Meshaal protested. "We do not actually fight the Jews because they are Jews, per se. We fight the occupiers."

Inconveniently for Meshaal, Hamas's charter is filled with explicit anti-Semitic language. Still, that charter is more than a quarter-century old. What might happen if the world publicly took Hamas, among the most radical of Israel's enemies, at its word? (Presuming, of course, that Hamas' protestations about prejudice include "Zionist" Jews, meaning almost all of us.)

The first step would be to challenge Hamas leaders to repeat in Arabic on Al Jazeera and in the mosques what they (and other Palestinian leaders) are willing to say in English. That demand would be most effective if it came not just from Israel's traditional friends, but from nations who insist their ire is directed at Israeli policies, not Jews. Perhaps the Qatari or Turkish governments could pay to restock those British supermarkets that removed all their kosher food due to threats of "anti-Israel" attacks.

But there's also a much more important economic element. Those vocal liberal activists who've urged boycotting, divesting from and sanctioning Israel due to the occupation must step forward and demonstrate that violations of Jewish rights concern them as deeply as those affecting Palestinians. Here's one suggestion: in the spirit of Christian fellowship, the Presbyterian Church should publicly announce that it will suspend support of anti-occupation activities -- boycott the boycott -- until its allies undertake clearly defined actions to combat anti-Jewish activities in Europe and elsewhere.

More is at stake here than freedom from fear. A clash of religious beliefs, as Muslims should understand better than anyone, offers nothing but endless bloodshed. In contrast, a dispute over boundaries of even a much-promised piece of land in the Middle East holds some hope of resolution. On the way there, it's time to end the "Jew Tax." The war against the Jews must stop, and it's long past time to pressure the anti-Semitic anti-Zionists to take concrete steps to end it."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:31 PM

Zionism has turned Israel into one of the most violent countries on earth.
It is a country where the 20% minority non Jewish population is harassed and discriminated against as a matter of routine and even its elected members of the Knesset are threatened and intimidated.


But it is aso a country where, on a weekly basis, the non Israeli population of the illegally occupied territories are shot, arrested or beaten up.


These people see on a regular basis homes demolished , houses ransacked, the elderly humiliated and orchards and trees destroyed.


They see land stolen by Israeli paramilitary settlers armed with guns who drive shepherds from their grazing land and farmers from their olive groves.


Water is stolen and in the Negev Desert in the south of the country Bedouin arabs are routinely attacked and their villages destroyed. All this on a routine basis.


Palestinian schools are denied funds and Palestinian universities closed or attacked. Palestinian students are disciplined for speaking and threatened by organised gangs of Zionists.


But it is not only Palestinians who are suffering in this violent and racist state. African migrant workers and refugees are routinely harassed and threatened.

Eithipian Jewish women have been sterilised against their will such is the racism of the zionists.

Other 'guest ' workers, from Thailand for example, have been shabbily treated while even the original minority Jewish population of Israel has been treated badly for having a Jewish-Arabic culture


I am amazed at the arrogance of the new Israelis often from the USA or Russia who end up totin' uzis on the West Bank and terrorizing the Palestinian population. These are characters who have probably never met a Palestinian unless he is pointing a gun at one!

We should not be surprised at this sick culture of violence and intolerance. Netanyahu is a child killer but the gangs of zionist youth shouting ' Death to the arabs! and Death to the leftists! show exactly where this racist and violent society is heading.
ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:36 PM

Source for: 21 Aug 14 - 04:45 PM , Bullshot? Or just more made-up bullshit per your usual nonsensical spew?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 06:43 PM

Hey Greg, why don't you ask comrade Ivor for his sources for the anti semitic bullshit he posts?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 06:46 PM

Is that supposed to legitimize Bullshot's spew, Boo?

Thought you espoused the antithisis of relativisism.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 06:55 PM

Ivor expresses his opinions. Mad-minnow bobad and prancing beardie-weirdie copy and paste. So lazy. Usually sans attribution. Zionist stooges!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:37 AM

"When I was in high school, my synagogue was firebombed"
You have a habit on not linking your postings Brucie.
This one comes from Michael Millington, an extremist Zionist who equates Anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism.
You conveniently left out part of his statement which demands that those who disagree with Israel's action in Gaza should be boycotted and the Christian Church should be part of that boycott.
The article is entitled 'The Jew Tax' and I've pasted the bit you missed out below.
"Israel says it targets Hamas, but Hamas hides among the people."
Wouldn't she just say that.
So far, the nearest she has offered in proof to that statement is two young men on a motorcycle who were blasted to unidentifiable smithereens.
Keep it up Keith - you'll get there eventually - not
Jim Carroll

The Jew Tax (continued)
Michael Millington
"The first step would be to challenge Hamas leaders to repeat in Arabic on Al Jazeera and in the mosques what they (and other Palestinian leaders) are willing to say in English. That demand would be most effective if it came not just from Israel's traditional friends, but from nations who insist their ire is directed at Israeli policies, not Jews. Perhaps the Qatari or Turkish governments could pay to restock those British supermarkets that removed all their kosher food due to threats of "anti-Israel" attacks.
But there's also a much more important economic element. Those vocal liberal activists who've urged boycotting, divesting from and sanctioning Israel due to the occupation must step forward and demonstrate that violations of Jewish rights concern them as deeply as those affecting Palestinians. Here's one suggestion: in the spirit of Christian fellowship, the Presbyterian Church should publicly announce that it will suspend support of anti-occupation activities -- boycott the boycott -- until its allies undertake clearly defined actions to combat anti-Jewish activities in Europe and elsewhere.
More is at stake here than freedom from fear. A clash of religious beliefs, as Muslims should understand better than anyone, offers nothing but endless bloodshed. In contrast, a dispute over boundaries of even a much-promised piece of land in the Middle East holds some hope of resolution. On the way there, it's time to end the "Jew Tax." The war against the Jews must stop, and it's long past time to pressure the anti-Semitic anti-Zionists to take concrete steps to end it."
As Palestinians and Israelis continue to struggle to turn the Gaza cease-fire into something more permanent, Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal may have provided an inadvertent path forward. In his recent interview with U.S. journalist Charlie Rose, Meshaal wanted it clearly understood that Hamas is not anti-Semitic.
"We are not fanatics, we are not fundamentalists," Meshaal protested. "We do not actually fight the Jews because they are Jews, per se. We fight the occupiers."
Inconveniently for Meshaal, Hamas's charter is filled with explicit anti-Semitic language. Still, that charter is more than a quarter-century old. What might happen if the world publicly took Hamas, among the most radical of Israel's enemies, at its word? (Presuming, of course, that Hamas' protestations about prejudice include "Zionist" Jews, meaning almost all of us.)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 04:34 AM

To Bobab,
I am not at all anti semitic. Millions of people across the world have just seen the refugee city of Gaza being destroyed and its children murdered or wounded in their hundreds by Israeli war planes, tanks , artillery shells and so on.

Israel is an 'apartheid state' that keeps committing mass murder ,or as one of its leaders so charmingly put it, 'mow the grass'.

There are many Jewish people across the world who are strongly opposed to the murderous policies being committed by Israel's right wing government.

The accusation is that they are 'self hating Jews '...actually they just can't stand the the Palestinian population being slaughtered time after time by the IDF.


There have been at least four huge national demonstrations and numerous local rallies in support of Gaza in the UK in the past few weeks .Jewish and non Jewish people demonstrating together against the violent vicious and racist Israeli state.
ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:02 AM

Zionism has turned Israel into one of the most violent countries on earth.

Says who?
It is about the least violent place in the whole region.

Jim,Israel says it targets Hamas, but Hamas hides among the people.

If Israel are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more male than female killed.
If they are lying, you would expect parity.
What do we find Jim?

If they are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more adults than children.
If they are lying, you would expect more children than adults.
What do we find Jim?

If they are telling the truth you would expect young men to be over-represented.
What do we find Jim.

Those three young men on a motorcycle were targeted as Islamic Jihad fighters.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:50 AM

"Jim,Israel says it targets Hamas, but Hamas hides among the people."
Israel has provided no such proof and even if it had, you were extremely outraged when I suggested you supported the killing of hostages - you are now supporting the killing of hostages.
"If they are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more adults than children."
What an incredibly stupid piece of circumstantial evidence to justify the killing of 2000 human beings (the vast majority of them civilians and a large percentage of them children)
The only 'evidence' of the killing of Hamas has been the blowing to unidentifiable smithereens two men on a motor cycle - every other fatiliy has been claimed to be among the 2000+ - without substantiation.
"Those three young men on a motorcycle were targeted as Islamic Jihad fighters"
According to and unproven by Israel alone, nobody has backed that claim -
Israel regards every critic of its policy as Antisemitic so it is likely that they regard the entire population of Gaza as "Hamas Fighters".
While I have your attention, would you like to comment on the fact that Britain is selling arms to the three main states who are providing arms to Isis - no - thought not!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 06:39 AM

Well Ivor, you say you're not an anti semite then turn around and say Israel is an apartheid state, which it, by any stretch of the imagination, is clearly not. You are demonizing Israel which, by the EUMC definition, is anti semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 06:47 AM

Israel has provided no such proof

How could it?
However, the hard facts of the casualty statistics are strong evidence that it is true.

and even if it had, you were extremely outraged when I suggested you supported the killing of hostages - you are now supporting the killing of hostages.

No I am not.
They are human shields not hostages.
Hamas has made it impossible for Israel to strike back at them without hurting civilians.
They try to reduce the harm to civilians by giving warnings and by allowing pilots to abort missions where civilian casualties would be too heavy.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 07:00 AM

"However, the hard facts of the casualty statistics are strong evidence that it is true."
No they don't three dead motorcyclists prove nothing
No news on whether you disapprove of arms sales to those selling arms so those who sell arms to Isis - no surprise than
You are a miserably hypocritical little twat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 07:09 AM

Not the three on a bike Jim, but all the casualty statsistics.

If Israel are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more male than female killed.
If they are lying, you would expect parity.
What do we find Jim?.

If they are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more adults than children.
If they are lying, you would expect more children than adults.
What do we find Jim?

If they are telling the truth you would expect young men to be over-represented.
What do we find Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 07:42 AM

Jimmy the illiterate,

I posted the ENTIRE article- INCLUDING the " bit you missed out "

TRY to learn how to read before you make your posts.

This has been a constant problem with you- YOU MAKE STATEMENTS BASED ONLY ON WHAT YOU THINK OTHERS SHOULD HAVE POSTED, and not on what they DO post.

I POSTED ALL- YOU post only a part- what does that say about YOU?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 11:20 AM

Apologies O Bearded One - misread your posting
I posted the bit I mistakenly thought you missed
What does it say about me?
It says that I am as capable of making mistakes as anybody else but, unlike you, I am prepared to acknowledge them
If you weren't such an insecure, loud-mouthed thug, you would do the same occasionally instead of covering your own ignorance and insecurity with bulling bluster
Please feel free piss of and bully someone who is impressed by such things you braindead lout
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 11:29 AM

"Not the three on a bike Jim, but all the casualty statistics."
There is no serious breakdown of casualties in regard to who are combatants and who are not - only numbers
If israel is telling the truth - there is no truth to tell, and if there was, a bunch of terrorists who facilitated the massacre of three and a half thousand refugees and then stood by and watched it take place would be the last place to look for it.
You do not take the word of the accused on trust, especially while it is still in the process of slaughtering civilians.
Do you have anything to say about the fact that Britain is selling arms to States who are supplying arms to Isis, I wonder.
The states are Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar.
Care to comment?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 12:07 PM

Jimmy boy,

"It says that I am as capable of making mistakes as anybody else but, unlike you, I am prepared to acknowledge them
"

Then where is YOUR acknowledgement that the UN school "bombardment" that you blamed on Israeli shelling was due to the HAMAS anti-personnel rocket that landed there?


Or is that a mistake you refuse to acknowledge?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 12:12 PM

Damn right Israel is an apartheid state!

Firstly, it has oppressed the Palestinian population of what is now Israel and the illegally occupied territories since its very inception in 1948.

It has driven large numbers into exile, imprisoned , often without trial, hundreds of thousands of Palestinian men and women over the years.

It has illegally occupied the West Bank and other areas in defiance of both International Law and the United Nations.

It has bulldozed tens of thousands of Palestinian homes .

It has practiced 'collective punishment' .

It has built an Apartheid Wall or separation wall across Palestinian land cutting off villages and farms from their surrounding fields and neighbouring towns etc.

It has pauperised an entire people stealing land, houses , orchards and desroying villages.

It has committed systematic massacres against the Palestinians at places like Tantura and Deir Yassin as recorded by the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe in his book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.

It has denied the 20% of Israeli citizens of Palestinian origin the legal or civic rights enjoyed by other Israelis.

It has driven Palestinian people out of neighbourhoods in the illegally occupied East Jerusalem which Israel now claims to be its capital; but which no other country recognises.

It has destroyed mosques and attacked universities.It has underfunded Palestinian universities and schools and again imposed collective punishment on students.

It has beaten up and imprisoned hundreds of Palestinian children and teenagers. Take a look at the youtube short film of an American Jewish youngster who spoke out in defence of Palestinians and just see how he was roughed up by some Israeli thugs in uniform. What a brave young man!

The Palestinian people on the West Bank are barred from using Israeli only roads built in recent years on their own land..land which has been confiscated by the occupying power.

Palestinian workers have been effectively removed from the Israeli economy through a variety of measures including the hated road blocks which keep Palestinian waiting for hours at the side of the road and at the whim of smirking 19 year old soldiers.

This denial of work to the Palestinians goes back to the beginnings of the conflict when 'Hisadrut' the Jewish trade union, set out to ban Palestinian workers from working in Jewish owned businesses.

Armed zionist fanatics are able to scare or terrorise Palestinians quite openly in cities like Hebron but also in the villages on the West Bank.

It is quite clear that Israeli politicians have whipped up hatred of Palestinians for decades. They believe that Palestinian life is cheap. One poor young girl a few years was deliberately shot dead after she wandered too close to an Israeli guard post.

Zionist gangs threaten and attack in East Jerusalem and elsewhere.

Interestingly enough Israel was big pals with apartheid era South Africa and only last week 200,000 South Africans marched to demand an end to the blockade of Gaza and a free Palestine.

Those people now a racist state when they see one.
ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 12:38 PM

There is no serious breakdown of casualties in regard to who are combatants and who are not - only numbers

We have break down by age and gender.
If Israel are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more male than female killed.
If they are lying, you would expect parity.
What do we find Jim?.

If they are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more adults than children.
If they are lying, you would expect more children than adults.
What do we find Jim?

If they are telling the truth you would expect young men to be over-represented.
What do we find Jim?

Re selling arms to Isis, some states did to help to them fight Assad, which you would have approved.
They no longer need to buy arms. They capture more than they are ever likely to need.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:19 PM

What the fuck is your point Keith?
The first thing any community does when under attack is to move all women and children out of range of fire - "women and children first"
Men will always be the highest on the casualty list, women and children much lower.
Had it been the other way around you would have been pointed at the cowardly male bastards hiding while the women died.
Had irt been , as you scum are suggesting, that Hamas been using civilians as human shields then women, elderly and children would have made up the greatest numbers.
The fact that so many non combatants have died is due entirely to the indiscriminate nature of the attacks - either that or the Israelis are deliberately targeting them.
To make sure, they have had death squads wiping out survivors
"They no longer need to buy arms. They capture more than they are ever likely to need."
You have been given the facts of the supplying of arms to Isis by the states mentioned (plus Kuwait) -
Throughout this period sales of arms by Britain and America continued and still happen in the case of Kuwait, Qatar and Turkey - so even if those sales stopped tomorrow, the arms Isis have used to get where they have almost certainly came from those States and originally from Britain and America.
As I poited out on the other thread - you are back to defending Britain selling arms to terrorists, just as you did on the Homs thread about selling arms to Assad.
I,m afraid you seem to have another conflict of interest - how do I condemn Isis while at the same time acting as proxy armes supplier to her forces.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 04:24 PM

Right Ivor, I guessed you didn't know the definition of "apartheid" and you proved me right with your anti semitic bullshit rant.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:29 PM

The first thing any community does when under attack is to move all women and children out of range of fire

Er, why did the men not also move out of range of fire?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 01:37 AM

I think you have started from a position of support for Israel come what may.

There are many like you but support for your position and support for Israel is dwindling.

I am not suggesting that Israel is suddenly going to change its ways and negotiate fairly with the Palestinians..
The prospect of a two state solution is gone...probably forever.

It is gone because the illegally occupied territories are now settled by hundreds of thousands of armed Zionist settlers and are covered by settler only roads and an apartheid wall.
But the Palestinian people are not going to accept the small separate bantustan areas that apparently seem to be their future under Israeli rule. Bantustans that do not even have access to the outside world .
Israel doesn't want a one state democratic state with guaranteed civil and human rights for all and looks set to continue it's pulverising of garza and it's brutal control of the West Bank for the years ahead.

So it's seems to be vicious attacks every few years and during the intervening periods more heavy controls and intimidation etc.

All this adds up to a ort of process without peace.

The Palestinian resistance won't accept this situation. In garza for example the Palestinian leaders say that with the choice of a quick death by bombing or a slow death by malnutrition or disease they may as well continue fighting.

The child killer Netanyahu thinks he is on a winner but Israel is heading into a militarised racist dead end...with friends like you mr baobab and some rich neo cons in America but with dwindling grassroots support across the world.
Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 03:44 AM

"Er, why did the men not also move out of range of fire?"
Er - because there is nowhere for them to go - that has been the case from the early days and has been stated so by the aid agencies.
Nowhere is really out of range - the hope has been that the U.N. shelters would have offered some form of refuge - not entirely the case, the Israelis have treated refuges, hospitals, clinics, shelters for the elderly.... as legitimate targets - 70 odd schools were destroyed in the first week.
This is indiscriminate bombardment.
If this is your only evidence that Israel "is telling the truth"....
What kind of a moron are you Keith?
There is not a single shred of evidence that the boys and men on the casualty list are in any way combatants - there are no claims that they were carrying arms or are in uniform - unless you are suggesting that the medical staff are taking time off to strip them of weapons and uniforms and find a convenient hiding place.
There are no claims of actually targeting Haas fighters - unless you believe the shit that they are using Gazans as human shields (presumably they are all passively happy to be going to their death by allowing this to happen)
You are defending an atrocity with arguments that appear to have been scribbled on a cigarette packet in a hasty attempt to justify mass-murder.
"I think you have started from a position of support for Israel come what may."
You are obviously a newcomer to all this Ivor - welcome to Keith's "Let's Defend the Atrocity" show
Keith has defended every extremist right wing cause their is, British wartime Fascism, the Sabra/Shatila massacre, selling arms to Assad, ethnic cleansing of Bedouins, Israel's Apartheid state policy, the use of chemical weapons in Gaza - even the persecution of Travellers in Britain.... all grist to Keith's mill.
His "all Muslims are culturally implanted to have underage sex" is one of his prize-winning contributions.
As the man said - "you ain't seen nothing yet".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:02 AM

So Jim, why are males in general and young men in particular over-represented in the casualties, while females and young children under-represented.

It can be explained by believing Israel when it says they only target Hamas but they hide among civilians.
It can be explained if Hamas is just lying again about the status of many casualties as civilian when they are fighters.

They did exactly that on previous incursions.

You are obviously a newcomer to all this Ivor - welcome to Keith's "Let's Defend the Atrocity" show

No. I am just putting Israel's side of the story.
Why does that make you so angry.
Your unquestioning belief of obvious lies only amuses me.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:16 AM

"So Jim, why are males in general and young men in particular over-represented in the casualties,"
You have just had your answer - it is obvious you are going to ignore it.
In case you missed it
It is the case in every example of military attack that women and children are given priority "WOMEN AND CHILDREN FIRST" (ever hear of that one?
In the case of there not being sufficient places of relative safety older boys and men take their chances where they can and invariably bear the brunt of having to do so
Please point out which bit of this is difficulty to understand.
"No. I am just putting Israel's side of the story."
You never put, or even listen to any other side of the story.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:40 AM

No-one is turned away from " places of relative safety."

Civilian men would stay with their families.
Fighting men would suffer more casualties than civilians, if Israel is honest about not targeting civilians.
That is why most of the dead are males of fighting age.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 06:45 AM

"Civilian men would stay with their families."
For Christs sake Keith THERE WAS NO FUCKING ROOM FOR THEM TO DO SO - THAT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT FROM THE EARLY DAYS BY THE U.N.
I don't know what king of shit your Israeli masters are feeding you, but it appears to have effected your brain, what there is of it.
You seem to be totally out of control now your favourist toy has been removed from you
Not even Israel has been able to come up with reports of militants being killed in any numbers - none at all, just vacuous claims like tihis one.
And you have to remember, everybody who takes up a stone to defend his wife and family from one of Israel's death squads will be automatically listed as a Hamas fighter - even if he is the local greengrocer.
Give it a rest - you've blown it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 10:40 AM

Not even Israel has been able to come up with reports of militants being killed in any numbers - none at all, just vacuous claims like tihis one.

Yes they have.

"The Israel Defense Forces cannot refute the images of dead women and children that are broadcast abroad, so instead the army is trying to construct a narrative proving that its targets — and the aftermath of its attacks — are legitimate.

The Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center is a vital partner in constructing this narrative. The center, which is checking the name of each Palestinian said killed in the Gaza fighting (it has gotten to 450 so far), estimates that some 46 percent of them are "terrorist operatives." This figure may change in accordance with further investigation.

The center's lists are accompanied by photographs of posters and death notices of some of the militants. Each name is marked "non-involved," "unidentified" or "terrorist operative." The source for the information of each person's "involvement" is not mentioned, apart from operatives whose photograph appears in death notices or public reports of the militant organization to which he belonged"
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.611924