BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:33 PM

Denial again
Another game set and match I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:33 PM

Denial again
Another game set and match I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:40 PM

They started it by delivering the killers to the site and allowing them access to their victims
THey ended it by burying the bodies under the stadium
I dare you to say neither of these things are true
That will just about put an end to an semblance of credibility you believe you have
Even your best friends.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:40 PM

They started it by delivering the killers to the site and allowing them access to their victims
THey ended it by burying the bodies under the stadium
I dare you to say neither of these things are true
That will just about put an end to an semblance of credibility you believe you have
Even your best friends.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:52 PM

They do not deny transportation.
(The camps are only 15 minutes walk from the centre of Beirut anyway.)

Bodies under the stadium is a myth.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:10 PM

One liberal democracy can be cited that accuses Israel is Ireland, the source of the vessels intended for Gaza to offer relief.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:15 PM

Ireland did not accuse Israel of the massacre, and abstained from a UN GA resolution condemning it as a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:25 PM

Irish embassy website.
"Ireland and Israel are both modern, open, export orientated economies which benefit from highly educated and dynamic workforces. Israel is one of Ireland's largest trading partners in the Middle East, with visible trade amounting to a half a billion US dollars annually. It is not surprising, therefore, that there are strong commercial links across a wide range of business areas from software and the life sciences to education and food and drinks. "

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:53 PM

Denial and charecter reference versus eye witnesses and conviction by the UN enquiriry
Eye witness account from a doctor - now let me see - who do we believe?
Jim Carroll
All lies, I tell you!!
The Massacre
The phalange militia were Israel's proxy in Lebanon, their members were recruited from the Maronite Christian community. They were payed for, trained and armed by Israel. They were effectively an extension of the IDF, and were usually sent in to do the dirty work.
After Sharon's army had taken West Beirut and sealed off all escapes routes from the Palestinian refugee camps, Sharon ordered the phalange in. The official order from Sharon read "for the operation in the camps the phalange should be sent in"*. Knowing that the camps were full of unarmed civilians - mainly women and children, only around 150 phalange were deployed. The testimonies of the survivors suggest that both Israeli soldiers and their mercenaries the Phalange entered the camps and participated in the massacre**.
The Israelis supervised the operation from their forward command post, a six story building overlooking the camps. From there they gave logistic support and relayed orders to the soldiers on the ground. Concerned that reports of the on-going slaughter would leak out, the soldiers were ordered to continue the killing through out the night - to facilitate this the Israelis lit up the sky with flares all night long. The idea was to kill as many Palestinians as quickly as possible, before international pressure would put a stop to the operation. Over 3000 elderly men, women and children were murdered. Next the evidence had to be buried quickly - so the Israelis send in bulldozers. Houses were packed with bodies and demolished to form mass graves. One such mass grave contained a thousand bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 04:15 PM

This doctor was not an eye witness.
We have been over all this.
She was in the hospital and saw nothing of it, and found out about it afterwards.
We have the account of a nurse who was with her in the hospital and they were marched out of the camp together.

You are resorting to dishonesty again.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 04:36 AM

Now you are openly lying again to defend a human rights atrocity.
Yes she was there, as was the nurse whose eye-witness testimony you attempted to use, and then to deny when it didn't work out, and the on-the-spot journalist reporting from the site, and the Israeli soldiers who gave evidence against the massacres, and the investigation teams sent in to report, and the survivors of the massacre and the Falangists who were later pressed to give evidence as to their involvement... every single account of the massacre that doesn't show Israel in a favourable light has been dismissed by you as "lies" of has been ignored.
You are a sick, sick joke - thankfully you are a one-off - not even your bigoted mates bother to invent things - they just pepper us with their extremist arguments.
Jim Carroll   
Wiki entry.
"From Beirut to Jerusalem: A Woman Surgeon With the Palestinians is a book by Swee Chai Ang, an orthopaedic surgeon who worked with civilians during the Lebanese Civil War. The book details her eye-witness account of the Sabra and Shatila massacre. Dr. Ang, a graduate of the Royal Victoria Infirmary in Britain, testified before the Kahan Commission. The commission was responsible for investigating the nature of the Israeli involvement in the massacre of perhaps 800 to 1000 Palestinians. Dr. Ang established a British charity following her first hand account of the massacres known as the Medical Aid for Palestinians (MAP) which she discusses in her work"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 05:28 AM

as was the nurse whose eye-witness testimony you attempted to use, and then to deny when it didn't work out,

Not true Jim.
Nurse Siegel gave an honest account of the experience she and Dr. Chai shared.

You have to admire Chai's work but her accounts are loaded with dishonest propaganda.

You know this because we debated it in great detail just one year ago.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 07:40 AM

In his book, Foucault's Pendulum, Umberto Eco writes: "If two things don't fit, but you believe both of them, thinking that somewhere, hidden, there must be a third thing that connects them, that's credulity." Anti-Zionists believe the Jews have no right to their historic homeland. They also believe Palestinians have a right to the Jewish homeland. They are credulous, because they refuse to look at the "hidden thing" that allows them to connect the two things that don't fit. The hidden thing is anti-Semitism. Make no mistake: BDS is the new "final solution."

Barbara Kay - National Post

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:04 AM

Anti-Zionists believe the Jews have no right to their historic homeland. They also believe Palestinians have a right to the Jewish homeland.

Moresimplistic booshit, Bullbad.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

I am against Zionism.

Do I think that Zionists have the right to push other people off land that they want and to constantly punish and torture the generations who want to stay on their ancestral land?

What you you think?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 11:16 AM

Do you think that Muslims have the right to push other people off land that they want and to constantly punish and torture the generations who want to stay on their ancestral land?

You have said that you support that- the West Bank was made "JEW-Free" in 1948 during the Jordanian occupation, and Palestinians settled that previously Jewish occupied land.


Unless the borders of the Two-state solution reflect the LAST set of AGREED upon borders ( i.e., NOT caused by military occupation), the war will continue (IT HAS NEVER BEEN ENDED).

So, we should go back to the 1923 borders of The Jewish Homeland and TransJordan, the Arab Muslim homeland. All other borders after that have been denied by the Arab nations.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 12:04 PM

Do I think that Zionists have the right to push other people off land that they want and to constantly punish and torture the generations who want to stay on their ancestral land?

If they ever started doing that, I would be very angry about it.
No decent country would have anything to do with a people who did that.
Not the Brits or the Irish or the Duth or the French or the Swedes or the Canadians or the Australians or the New zealanders or......

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:14 PM

There are those who are not accepting Israel's suppression of Palestinians that are raising their voices about it all over the world including the countries mentioned above.
As long as the Palestinian cause continues to be non-violent political resistance, it will remain a viable force that will eventually have a win-win for it and Israel.

If the BDS lapses into the violent quagmire of military reaction found in Syria or Egypt today, which I doubt it will since BDS is predicated on non-violent political resistance, it could
dissipate it's influence.

As it stands, BDS is working toward the betterment of the Palestinian and the
people of Israel. The notion that Palestinians want to eliminate Israel
is a propagandistic lie. It is being manufactured by the reactionary so-called right-wing forces in the Zionist community as it builds new settlements and evicts the Palestinian tenants from their rightful homes. Their actions are unsustainable as a growing BDS will show.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:21 PM

"The notion that Palestinians want to eliminate Israel
is a propagandistic lie. It is being manufactured by the reactionary so-called right-wing forces in the Zionist community as it builds new settlements and evicts the Palestinian tenants from their rightful homes."


Stringgie, the QUOTE from the HAMAS charter is from THEIR website.


Are you calling Palestinians LIARS????????

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:34 PM

from the Hamas Charter

"[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.""


"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who can presume to speak for all Islamic generations to the Day of Resurrection?

This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Sharia (law), and the same goes for all lands conquered by Muslims by force, during the times of (Islamic) conquests, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection.

It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Muslims, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land - whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Muslims, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit, but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine , is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 04:10 PM

Don't confuse the man with facts BB, it spoils his delusions.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 01:21 AM

Stringsinger, which of those countries treat Israel as the pariah it would be if those accusations are true.
You claimed that about Ireland and I already showed that you were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 06:34 PM

"You claimed that about Ireland and I already showed that you were wrong."
You have shown nobody any such thing.
You showed yourself a racist idiot on Ireland - your evidence was as invented as was your "cultural implant" witnesses.
You appear to have slunk away from the Irish thread to lick your wounds, so please don't try to turn your defeats into victories.
Israel has been condemned time and time again throughout the world for tis terroris behaviour and human rights abuses.
Up to now, the only support they have had is from the U.S. (with its 100+ vetoes which have prevented the regime being indicted as war criminals.
There is a large opposition to the present policy from Jews within and outsidee Israel (all Anti-Semite, no doubt) and even America has stepped away from supporting its behaviour over the peace negotiations.   
"Anti-Zionists believe the Jews have no right to their historic homeland."
Why I am no longer a Zionist
Zionism is a temporal political movement - to suggest that to be Anti-Zionist is to be Anti-Semitic is equivalent to suggestion that to oppose political organisations like The British National Party, whose basis is a claim to represent the interests of the British people, is Anti-British.
It is also equivalent to skulking behind the dead of Auschwitz to defend war crimes and atrocities.
Only an Anti-Semite would accuse Jews of horrors such as Sabra/Shatila when it was Israel who facilitated the massacre.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 11:07 PM

Jim, I showed that Ireland enjoyed warm and friendly relations with Israel.
Like any decent government, it would not if it believed all that shit.

I have not slunk away from the Irish thread.
You just did not respond to my last post.

Instead of making up shit about me, try to address what I actually say.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:37 AM

"I showed that Ireland enjoyed warm and friendly relations with Israel"
Another figment of your sick and inventive mind.
This is actually a summary of Ireland's "friendly relations with Israel"
"Both countries established diplomatic relations in 1975. Prior to 1975, Ireland had refused to establish relations due to Israel's alleged violations of UN Resolutions. In 1981, however, Ireland condemned Israel's attack on Iraq's nuclear reactor. Ireland did not allow an Israeli embassy to open until 20 December 1993. Two weeks prior to that, Ireland had allowed PLO Leader Yasser Arafat to visit and open a delegation.
Ireland annually provides €7.5 million in aid to the Palestinians, including €3.5 million for UNRWA"
Not that it matters anyway
Britain has friendly relations with China, who is at present, one of her greatest trading partners.
Does that negate China's record on human rights - I presume so?
Our (Britain's) relations with despots is legendary
Gaddafi
Bahrain
In the past, Britain and the US has had "friendly relations" with some of the world's despots - like, for instance, the Salazar regime in Portugal, which was regularly declared as Britain's greatest ally
Salazar
While the Greek and Chilean fascists were torturing and 'disappearing' many thousands of its opponents they were enjoying "friendly relations with Britain and America - Margaret Thatcher's "friendly relations" with Pinochet the Torturer could have come straight out of a Barbara Cartland novel.
"Friendly relations" are a political and economic expediency and have nothing whatever to do with the human rights records of those concerned - whatever "facts" one cares to invent about them to defend human rights abuses and terrorist behaviour.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:08 AM

Irish embassy website.
"Ireland and Israel are both modern, open, export orientated economies which benefit from highly educated and dynamic workforces. Israel is one of Ireland's largest trading partners in the Middle East, with visible trade amounting to a half a billion US dollars annually. It is not surprising, therefore, that there are strong commercial links across a wide range of business areas from software and the life sciences to education and food and drinks. "

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:34 AM

As I said - immaterial - the "business links" says it all, especially since the death of the Celtic Tiger.
You have been given Ireland's official position on Israel - wherever tweakings are taking place to keep the trade flowing, Ireland's support for the Palestinian people remains unaltered.
It doesn't matter anyway - as I have shown, "friendly relations" and political mouthings do not alter one iota the human rights records of any country - or were Gaddafi, the present Hamad bin Isa bin Salman Al Khalifa,s Bahrain, Salazar's Portugal, Papadopoulos's and Makarezos's Greece, Pinochet's Chile all misjudged souls because of their "friendly relations" with the west.
And what about 'China, me old China' - hotbed of democracy or what?
Did you know that with Syria's 20 year record of torturing and disappearing its opponents, Syria's present leader, Assad, was in line for an honourary British knighthood - gawd bless 'is democratic socks!
Pratt!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 08:23 AM

Half a billion is a fraction of Ireland's total trade.
If Ireland believed all that shit about Israel's evil doings, they would have nothing to do with them.
Like all intelligent and informed governments, they know it is all propaganda and bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 10:03 AM

You are clinging onto Ireland and ignoring her official stated policy while at the same time deliberately ignoring the ludicrous idea that silence on Israel's crimes have nothing to do with those crimes being a fact
Israel's actions speak for themselves
!00+ vetoes speak for themselves
America's outright condemnation of Israel's behaviour at the Conference table (described as "Antisemitism by the Israeli regime) just about says it all
Only the atrocity deniers remain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 10:56 AM

Jim, liberal democracies like Ireland know that Israel is not the evil tyrant of the propaganda lies.
Those hundred vetoed motions were not supported by any intelligent, informed government.
The other sort are a majority at UN.

Ireland's "stated policy" is strong links with Israel.
They obviously do not see a "terrorist state."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:01 AM

"Jim, liberal democracies like Ireland know that Israel is not the evil tyrant of the propaganda lies."
Load of crap in the light of "liberal democracies" arms trading with terrorists record
"Those hundred vetoed motions were not supported by any intelligent, informed government."
So the UN is a load of crap and should be scrapped - must write that down!!
Sheesh - deeper and deeper every time you post - keep digging please
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:09 AM

There you go - one example from the United Nations News centre.
The U.S. veto had overwhelming support from all liberal democratic nations - my arse
Jim Carroll

UNITED STATES VETOES SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION ON ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS
18 February 2011 – The United States today vetoed a Security Council resolution condemning all Israeli settlements established in occupied Palestinian territory since 1967 as illegal, saying that while it agreed that the settlements are illegitimate the resolution harmed chances for peace talks.
The other 14 members of the Council voted for the resolution, which demanded that "Israel, as the occupying power, immediately and completely ceases all settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem and that it fully respect its legal obligations in this regard." But as one of the five permanent members, the negative US vote is the equivalent of a veto.
The resolution, co-sponsored by over 120 of the UN's 192 Member States, also called on both parties to comply with their obligations under the Road Map plan, sponsored by the diplomatic Quartet of the United Nations, European Union, Russia and US, which seeks to establish a two-State solution of Israel and Palestine living side by side in peace and security within recognized borders

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 10:42 PM

How times change. Shopping the other day I was looking for some oranges, and just about to buy some that looked OK, when I noticed the label - Jaffa. And I remembered a CND march long ago on a sweltering day and a couple of lads running up and down the line selling oranges and saying - "boycott South Africa, these are Jaffa oranges" .

I look forward to the day when I"ll be able to buy Jaffa oranges, the way I can now buy South African.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:38 AM

I was not talking about settlers, although decent countries welcome them.
I was talking about claims if Israeli "terrorism" and " constantly punish and torture the generations who want to stay on their ancestral land"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:51 AM

Those who wish to remain on the land where their ancestors have lived for many generations are tolerated, under sufferance. Those who wish to return home are excluded, unless that claim relates to where ancestors are believed to have lived several thousand years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 01:36 PM

The people who defame Israel and wish to undermine its status in the world are not anti-Semites — or so they will tell you, every chance they get. Their denial of anti-Semitism is essential to their moral position. In their own view they are good progressives, therefore absolutely innocent of racial or religious discrimination. Their propaganda campaign, which they hope eventually will escalate into economic warfare, is intended merely to reshape Israel's policies.

What they oppose, they want to assure us, is Israel's position in the West Bank. Their increasingly loud and self-confident BDS movement (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) is not, as they tell it, a struggle against the Jews. They simply want to bring Israel into line with enlightened leftist opinion in Europe, the U.S. and Canada.

Robert Fulford: The BDS smokescreen

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 03:15 PM

Ho- hum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 03:19 PM

Well said, bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:28 PM

Same old garbage, eh BooBad?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 07:07 PM

Same old insightful and erudite post, eh Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 09:01 PM

Hard to be insightful and erudite when what one is responding to is pure bullshit, BooBad.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 09:02 PM

Right Greg, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 05:34 PM

>Stringgie, the QUOTE from the HAMAS charter is from THEIR website.>

Hamas is one faction of the Palestinian struggle but doesn't represent the BDS movement in its entirety. If that quote is in fact legitimate on their website, the lie is that BDS represents a violent solution to the problem, a propaganda technique that is propagated by AIPAC and the Zionist controlled Israeli government.

>What they oppose, they want to assure us, is Israel's position in the West Bank. Their increasingly loud and self-confident BDS movement (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) is not, as they tell it, a struggle against the Jews. They simply want to bring Israel into line with enlightened leftist opinion in Europe, the U.S. and Canada.>

Actually, the same old fallacy, equating the oppressive actions of Zionism in the West Bank
with "leftist" politics, the same old red-baiting, the labeling and the complete denial of
any oppressive move that Israel makes, in short, part of the hackneyed propaganda that pervades US and Israeli policies. What the BDS movement wants to do really is have
Israeli government hacks see what they are doing to their country, isolating it with a
hawkish ideology that will preclude any solution to the mid-east crisis. It's the same
old "dreck".

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 05:49 PM

Not quite sure what anyone means by this use of the term "Zionism" & its derivatives in a pejorative sense. It was the name of an international Jewish movement from late C19 to the proclamation of Israel in 1948, to re-establish a Jewish state in the original, traditional biblical region where the Jews had lived until the Roman conquest & the diaspora. What its unfavourable connotation may be in the senses it is being used at present by Israel's denunciators, as eg in Stringfellow's post above, is something I can by no means fathom.

This is in no way intended as a defence of those parts of Israeli policy which are agreed to be regrettable: simply a semantic enquiry.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 07:14 PM

The people who defame Israel and wish to undermine its status in the world are not anti-Semites — or so they will tell you, every chance they get. Their denial of anti-Semitism is essential to their moral position. In their own view they are good progressives, therefore absolutely innocent of racial or religious discrimination. Their propaganda campaign, which they hope eventually will escalate into economic warfare, is intended merely to reshape Israel's policies.

What they oppose, they want to assure us, is Israel's position in the West Bank. Their increasingly loud and self-confident BDS movement (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) is not, as they tell it, a struggle against the Jews. They simply want to bring Israel into line with enlightened leftist opinion in Europe, the U.S. and Canada.

Allow me to redraft the above misrepresenting piece of bile.

The people who criticise Israel government policy and who wish to remove its US-led immunity from true scrutiny are not antisemites. To be an antisemite you must display unreasonable and blanket condemnation of all Jewish people. The critics of the Israeli government are often moved towards denial of the antisemitism they are routinely accused of, mainly by ardent, blindfolded and insecure supporters of the Israeli regime, but they are seldom otherwise troubled by the term which, after all, does not apply to them. They are a mixed bunch (including a good number of Israeli Jews as well as many Jews outside Israel), but they do not claim to be progressives and would never make saintly assertions about their total freedom from racial or religious prejudice, though they often try quite hard to avoid stuff like that. Their campaign to raise awareness of the Israeli government's unjust discrimination against Arabs in both Israel and the occupied territories, as well as the ever-worsening grabbing of the best land for the exclusive use of Jews, not to speak of the dividing of Palestinian families with a concrete wall (we can discuss their military atrocities another time maybe) is certainly intended to persuade Israel to reshape its policies.

We do oppose Israel's land-grabbing in the West Bank. The "BDS" movement, for want of a better term, is an attempt to persuade the Israeli government to treat all it citizens fairly, not just Jews. It has nothing to do with some hidden leftist agenda (let's leave those fairy tales to the conspiracy theorists), and is certainly not a "struggle against Jews". Jewish people in history have endured more than their fair share of discrimination and level-headed people of whatever political persuasion know that further discrimination against Jews would leave us all in just as miserable state, or worse, as we're in at the moment. And, not least, it would be morally indefensible.

Get your bloody blinkers off, will you? Just because some of us don't share your unthinking brand of right-wing extremism doesn't mean we're all bloody commies, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 08:06 PM

Boobad knows, all right, Steve. He just doesn't CARE.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 11:36 PM

Agree, Steve, so far as it goes. However, would point out yet again that in 2005 the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now Fundamental Rights Agency) published a working definition of antisemitism, which drew particular attention to the common practice of disguising antisemitism as being merely political objection to Israeli policies. It is by no means always a simple matter to determine when anti-Israel comment is just a disguised form of antisemitism. Often the context can help -- Israel is often denounced in BNP publications etc; but the distinction cannot always be so simply made.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 03:32 AM

It seems that the now common (on Mudcat) practice of the use of "Antisemitism" as a defence of criticism of the behaviour of the Israeli government has one purpose only - to stifle debate on the issues - if those using it can make the subject "Jewish" rather than Israeli, the subject becomes a no-go area.
Some of the bitterest critics of the Israeli government I have met have been Jewish friends, some of them active in the early days of the State of Israel, in the kibbutz movement.
The first time I heard Israel policy referred to as "fascist" was by a Manchester Jewish girl friend who had lost many of her family in the Holocaust.
Was she "Antisemitic"; are the American based 'Jews for Justice' all "Antisemites" - or 'Haaretz', or the many Jews who criticise Israeli policy, including from within Israel - often to the extreme.
There is a debate within Israel itself as to whether present Israeli policy can be described as promoting an 'Apartheid' state - an 'Anti-Jewish' plot from within maybe?
Last year I watched half a dozen former Israeli Secret Service heads discuss their work, on camera, in the film, The Gatekeepers.
Even if there was not enough evidence of the disturbing nature of Israeli Government policy shown via film clips, all of the six were critical of the present government, some extremely so.
One drew breath at the end of his sentence and stopped himself from using the term "fascist", shaking his head and choosing "unthinkable" instead.
Describing criticism of Israel as "Antisemitic", is not only cowardly apologist, is is extremely Antisemitic in itself.
It attributes all the crimes and human rights abuses that are being committed in Israel today to "the Jews".
Antisemitism has been responsible for the worst crimes in history, it has never gone away.
If Marine LePenn, who has been tipped as a future French Prime Minister, has her way, it will become a feature of European life in the not-to-distant future.
I watched an interview with her on television last week, and was fascinated to hear her talk about her overtures to Nigel Farrago, of Ukip, whom she apparently regards as a soulmate, which brings it all nearer home - the latest controversy of the racist nature of Ukip election publicity, indicates she may have a friend-in-waiting.
Crying "Antisemitic" wolf really isn't going to help in all this.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:24 AM

Agree with almost all that, Jim; except that I note you fail [not for the first time] to take account of the points I ref'd in the post before yours, ie those made in a significant report [you can google it] by an objective officially appointed European body. Criticism of Israel is in general just that; but if you persist in claiming that in 100% of cases it is not used as a mask for antisemitism, neverevereverever!, to give that prejudice a veneer of acceptability, then you are asserting more than you can possibly know, in direct contradiction of those who have gone more deeply than you into the question, about which they are better informed than you by the very fact of having dedicated much time to the production of an official, and respected report on it. You are often in the right on a lot of topics, Jim; but an occasional attack of uncharacteristic modesty, an admission that there might just now & then be occasions when your views are not those of an Infallible, would not come amiss.

Regards
~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:35 AM

I have never at any time dismissed or denied Antisemitism Mike, and it's more than a little disingenuous to describe by attitude as "an occasional attack of uncharacteristic modesty"
We all believe we have a case, and we put it as well as we can, but you, shamefully, have been one of those who have hidden behind the "Antisemitic" defence.
I stand by by attitude towards Israeli policy and past actions, and have stated as clearly as I am able why I believe as I do.
I also believe it to be one of the most dangerous policies in the world today because of where it is and who is involved.
In the end, all my postings have been on the effect of all this holy warfare, which is what it has become, on those who only stand and get slaughtered.
Religious and politicians can all burn in their own chosen hell as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll