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New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl

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GUEST,Guest. Bob Blair 23 Nov 14 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,Guest. Bob Blair 23 Nov 14 - 11:13 PM
maeve 23 Nov 14 - 11:18 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Nov 14 - 02:27 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 24 Nov 14 - 05:36 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 24 Nov 14 - 07:03 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 14 - 07:10 AM
Les in Chorlton 24 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 24 Nov 14 - 07:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Nov 14 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 14 - 08:32 AM
bubblyrat 24 Nov 14 - 09:28 AM
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Jim Carroll 24 Nov 14 - 10:42 AM
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Big Al Whittle 24 Nov 14 - 10:59 AM
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Jim Carroll 24 Nov 14 - 11:51 AM
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GUEST,Fred McCormick 25 Nov 14 - 06:19 AM
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Subject: New book - Lagacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Guest. Bob Blair
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 11:06 PM

http://www.ashgate.com/default.aspx?page=637&calcTitle=1&title_id=10679&edition_id=11003

I'm sure this will provoke a few arguments - and trolls.

Standby Jim

Bob Blair


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Subject: RE: New book - Lagacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Guest. Bob Blair
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 11:13 PM

Should be Legacies

Plus here's a proper link.

http://www.ashgate.com/default.aspx?page=637&calcTitle=1&title_id=10679&edition_id=11003

Bob Blair


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: maeve
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 11:18 PM

Here is your proper link transmogrified into a blue clicky. The book looks interesting. Legacies of Ewan MacColl


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 02:27 AM

looks very interesting - £58 for a book seems a bit steep to me. you can get the complete works of joyce or dickens for a quid on kindle. or shakespeare!

buy a kindle - its better value!


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 05:36 AM

That's the trouble with these Ashgates. They cost the earth and their subject matters are often discussed at such a rarified level, that the only people who can make sense of them are the people they're aimed at.

Think I'll wait until I can pick up a remaindered copy.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 07:03 AM

Fred wrote; "the only people who can make sense of them are the people they're aimed at."
That sounds like good marketing to me Fred ... :-)
Otherwise, yes, they are amazingly expensive!
Derek


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 07:10 AM

I was told about this a couple of years ago by Peggy and she mentioned it again last week when we interviewed her.
It does sound interesting and the chapter headings make it more so.
I have to admit, I was taken aback at the price, but that seems to be the way minority interest books go nowadays
I was quite keen to get David Atkinson's 'Street Ballads in Nineteenth-Century Britain, Ireland, and North America' (270 pages) until I found the price was £70.
Looks like it might be a case of eeny - meeny - miney- mo for Christmas this year unless I can find two wealthy friends.
Then, of course, there is the public library
Best stick with Enid Blyton Al
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM

An essential for Manchester Central Ref then?


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 07:46 AM

Derek. No. It's a case of academics speaking to academics. Before anyone accuses me of inverted academic snobbery, let me hasten to add that I'm talking specifically about those academics who write and speak in such jargon laden terminology that only their colleagues can understand them.

That's why Ashgates are so expensive. The publishers know that they will only sell in extremely limited quantities, mostly only to university libraries.

Les. I certainly hope a copy winds up in Manchester Central library, if for no other reason than that's where MacColl did most of his early reading. However, thanks to the activities of Cameron, Clegg and co., I doubt there's a public library left in the whole of the UK which could even consider spending that sort of money on a single reference book.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:04 AM

sadly the pc types have removed the Enid Blytons. unfair to people with big ears. the sort of thing you and Peggy would approve of.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:32 AM

The book Depository have it at around £47, postage free
Getting warm
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: bubblyrat
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 09:28 AM


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 10:00 AM

Jim, isn't the Book Depository now part of Amazon ?

How do they manage to send it post free from Luxembourg?


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 10:42 AM

"How do they manage to send it post free from Luxembourg?"
Don't think they're part of Amazon (hope not!!)
Whenever they're ou of stock they link you to Abe
A couple of years ago we bought The Famine Atlas - a doorstep of a book which came at a considerable discount and post-free - helps when you're living on the Atlantic coast
Good, comprehensive stock and good discounts and boasts that it posts free all over the world - never let me down yet.
I have in the back of my mind that they are based in Yorkshire (still - we've all got to live somewhere, haven't we!!)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 10:46 AM

On checking, I find they are part of Amazon - oh dear!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 10:59 AM

they save money by not paying any tax.

do you know if theres any chance of Journeyman going on Kindle, Jim?


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Guest - Bob Blair
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:00 AM

Keep taking the memory pills Jim - I told you that The Book Depository was part of Amaazon some time ago.

If you or anyone else saw it on the


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Guest - Bob Blair
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:12 AM

Sh*** pressed the submit button above by mistake. I should keep taking the tablets.

If Jim or anyone els saw it at £47 it was a bargain - should have snapped it up

the current Book depository price is £64.17, but it's cheaper on eBay at the moment.

The publisher's site says an ebook is available but I have been unable to find anyone selling the ebook so far.

Anyway your lucky the price is as low as it is :-). When I spoke to Peggy about it almost 3 years ago the publishers proposed price was over £100 . Peggy said she would have a word with someone about and that's what maybe brought the price down

Bob Blair


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:27 AM

According to the website, you can buy it online for £58.50 (that's for the print copy, not an ebook).

If you're an email subscriber to Ashgate, they give discounts and periodic special deals... so get on their email list!

It's not actually published till December.

Derek


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:31 AM

Ethical buying is a veritable hornets nest. In this case I refuse point blank to deal directly with Amazon (as distinct from Amazon Marketplace, where a lot of small traders ply their wares), because of the lousy way they treat their workers, and because they won't pay their taxes.

The Book Depository I'm not sure about. Yes, it was taken over by Amazon several years ago, but I've seen nothing to indicate TBD workers are treated in quite the same barbaric fashion as Amazon workers. Does anybody know whether TBD workers managed to retain their trade union rights and working conditions, or whether they went by the board when Amazon took over?

I should add that I haven't bought anything from TBD in God knows how long, so from my point of view, the question is somewhat academic. However, it would be handy to know in case a raving bargain ever crops up.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:42 AM

Hang on. I've just realised. Irrespective of how their workers are treated, TBD is still part of Amazon's evil, underhanded tax dodging cartel. That places it well and truly off limits.

What wouldn't I give for the return of all those friendly local high street book shops. They may not have been able to pay their workers a decent wage, but I never heard of one that had a policy of sacking its staff members after six days sick leave.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:51 AM

I'm still getting €65,58 (Euros) as the Book Depository price which, at current rates, abut £52
MacColl book
A bit more than I said earlier, but still not £64 - sorry about the discrepancy - will send my currency converter to bed without any supper!!
Hi Bob - send me some more pills!
Don't remember the Amazon bit - don't tell Peggy!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 01:16 PM

"do you know if theres any chance of Journeyman going on Kindle, Jim?"
Doubt it Al - don't get on with Kindle since I tried to turn the corner of the page down
If you decide to go for the real thing, look out for the second expanded edition - several bargain used copies on the net
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 04:18 PM

yes but then i need reading glasses, whereas with the kindle i just make the print a bit bigger. i could only get the ellman book about yeats on paper. i do like the kindle.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 04:24 PM

its not just that though. people with arthritis in their fingers find kindles not so difficult to handle as a book. plus if you go on holiday, or in hospital you can take a few books, or with a kindle fire model - you can take an audio book. very handy for blind people.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:21 PM

Uh-oh -- one of the chapters is titled What Is Folk Music?

Wonder if he supported the 1954 definition...


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 10:48 PM

oh Michael! for godsake no....don't lets go there.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 03:38 AM

"Wonder if he supported the 1954 definition..."
He devoted his life to the idea that folk songs proper were the artistic creations of working people and they were very different from those churned out by the music industry.
I've just been working on the long interview he gave, part of which was used for four radio programmes by Charles Parker entitled 'Vox Pop', based on the pop music industry - a brilliant analysis of the difference between pop and folk.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:10 AM

cobblers - he never did working mens club gigs - he never got to grips with the idea the experience of making ordinary non folk people dance.

if you've never fronted a rock band - you have sod all idea of what constitutes the music of the people in the last sixty years. he was not equipped make any such any such distinction.

Ewan's achievements are manifest and awe inspiring. they don't need bullshit hyperbole. his analyses of folk music was at best questionable. in the 1960's folk music went one way, he went the other. and took a lot of misguided people with him.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:19 AM

Al. Just for the record, MacColl did play working men's clubs, and holiday camps, as part of Theatre Workshop.

As for the idea that you have to have fronted a rock band, before you can comment on pop music, Jeezzzussss!!! Come on now. How many pop musicologists, can ever claim to have "fronted a rock band"? Answers on the back of a postage stamp please.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:39 AM

I avoid Amazon. I try to buy books online via Waterstones .... now someone will tell me they don't pay taxes either ....
Derek


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:42 AM

Like I said, trying to be an ethical shopper is like treading through a minefield.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:50 AM

Fronted a rock band - what planet do you live on Al?
MacColl was born and brought up in the poverty-stricken Salford Engles based his'Condiditions of the Working Class in England' on - his father was an iron oulder (out of work mainly due to his trades union activity) and his mother did what she could to support the family, including, mainlt house and office cleaning.
He left school at 14 and began to educate himself while sheltering from the rain in the reading rooms of public libraries.
His first contact with the media wa when he was discovered by a BBC producer, busking to a cinema queue in Manchester in th 'Hungry Thirties'.
As Fred pointed out, when he and Joan Littlewood st up Theatre Workshop, they played to factory gate audiences, strike meetings, public parks... wherever working people gathered.
He left Theatre Workshop when it ceased being agit-prop and became established in London - he felt that was a betrayal.
One of his early achievements was The Radio Ballads, where he interviewed Railwaymen, roadworkers, deep-sea fishermen, boxers, miners, working-class teenagers and Travellers.
He spent much of his career as a singer collecting from working people, and helping some of us to become singers.
I spent all of my working life wiring houses, working on the docks or on building sites or in pubs, as an electrician - in the half century or so I never met a single worker who "fronted a rock band"   
You must be joking
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:50 AM

"I was told about this a couple of years ago by Peggy and she mentioned it again last week when we interviewed her."

@Jim – why were you interviewing Peggy? Was that for a book or anything? Curious to know if there's an interesting project on the boil there.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 07:32 AM

yes well he was of his period. people have been slagging off Kathleen Ferrier for nor not singing blow the winds southerly in the style of Sam Larner on another thread - so I thought I'd point out that it cuts both ways.

if you're not groovy cat like me bopping away to Leapy Lee and Herman's Hermits - you really don't know where its at, man.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 08:23 AM

"Jim – why were you interviewing Peggy?"
Pat and I are in the process of putting together two hour-long programmes on Ewan for Irish radio station Lyric FM - they have been scheduled for broadcasting in January to coincide with the 100th anniversary of his birth.
They will cover his early life and his theatre work, and include his approach to singing and songwriting; a great deal of the time (we hope) will be taken up with his work with The Critics Group.
Beacuse they are aimed at an Irish audience, some time will be taen up with his and Peggy's contact with performers such as Joe Heaney, Dominic Behan and Seamus Ennis - also his songwriting for The Travelling People, Song of A Road, and the film, The Irishmen.
Lat weekend, the producer, Paula Carroll (no relation) and I spent two glorious days recording Peggy in Oxford - to say we were gobsmacked at what we were given would be to put it mildly.
There is a biography of Peggy in its final stages and the family are putting together a 4 CD box set of Ewan's singing for Topic.
As the Festival of Fools once remarked, "It's all happening now".
"bopping away to Leapy Lee and Herman's Hermits"
Lucky old you - spent most of my life dodging those 'Little Arrows'!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 10:01 AM

a hundred.....god that's depressing! oh, we're all going that way!
seems like only yesterday!


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Bob Blair
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 02:55 PM

The book arrived today and have spent a couple of hours or so skimming the book.

Initial feelings are that it is worth getting ........ BUT

The bibliography is good - I think need to check some items out..

The list of radio programmes is limited and not comprehensive - no mention made of the Song Carriers or Romeo and Juliet although the latter is mentioned in the text. Parsley, Sage, and. Politics???

The TV prorogramme list only has 3 items

The Vacca interviews take up too much of the book and I have reservations about them. Vacca has his own agenda and punts it from time to time.   I suppose that folk who have never heard any of Ewan's interviews will find them interesting but they need to be listened to in conjunction with other interviews that Ewan gave. As is known he sometimes varied - just as he did with his songs :-)

The Laing chapter on Ewan and the revival has serious errors for any publication that has pretences to be an academic study.

In particular there are glaring errors when he talks about the Critics Group, most of which are easily checked by any competent researcher, and let me hasten to add that as a member of the Critics Group I am in a position to know.

His (Laing's) objectivity goes out the window when he says about the Critics Group reading list -

" it seems likely that MacColl the autodidact had simply listed every book that he had consumed".

That's far, far from the truth and insulting to boot. I wonder what grounds Laing had for saying such a thing.

The Laing errors and lack of objectivity must call into question the value of any book published by an avowedly educational publisher.

To be fair however his (Laing's) chapter has some interesting material.


Moore's musical analysis of Ewan and some other trad singers is interesting an deserves longer study with the recordings he analysed in front of you.

The best bits so far are Peggy's intro and the final para of the intro although I would quibble with some of that... Now there's a surprise. :-)

Maybe more later, but the book is definitely worth having for those interested in MacColl's work.

Bob Blair


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 02:13 AM

thank you Bob for your review.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 09:11 AM

I hope that soon I may be able to make a more informed contribution to the everlasting debates...... a review copy of Legacy of Ewan MacColl: The Last Interview has just dropped through the letter box.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 10:31 AM

"a review copy of Legacy of Ewan MacColl: The Last Interview has just dropped through the letter box."
At the asking price, I assume it was delivered by Securicor!
Look forward to reading your opinions - who are you reviewing it for?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Hagman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 07:32 PM

Jim Carroll wrote about The Book Depository:

'Don't think they're part of Amazon (hope not!!)
Whenever they're out of stock they link you to Abe'

... and that's because Abe is also owned by Amazon! You can run, but you can't hide...


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 03:41 AM

" it seems likely that MacColl the autodidact had simply listed every book that he had consumed".
an auto didact is someone who is self taught, which in itself is not insulting,although I agree, when I read that statement it did not appear objective to me, my first reaction was that it was harsh upon MacColl.
could you throw any light on this one.. what was the Critics reading list?.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 08:35 AM

when i was a kid, i used to pretend i'd read every book i'd ever heard of...

academics are people who keep up the practice - its a sort of poker game, they enjoy catching each other out at.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 09:46 AM

I seem to remember from 'Journeyman' that Ewan considered himself an autodidact, with pride in the way that he had spent time of unemployment educating himself in Salford Public Library.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 10:18 AM

Yes I was thinking that too remembering it from both the book and the TV documentary on him "What Did You Do in the Strike?" where he claimed to have disciplined himself to learn three new words per day.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:20 PM

yes, i think being self educated is not something to be ashamed of.
I left school at fifteen, and spent my o level year, not at school but reading Conrad,Maugham, Tolstoy,Chekhov, etc in a public library.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:45 PM

Yeah, me too, but in Bolton library. And Chekhov is still far and away my favourite Star Trek character.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 03:03 PM

MacColl used to end most of the Critics Group meetings by launching into a soliloquy on song, theatre, literature..... anything that arose from the night's work
It was during these he introduced me to what have turned out to be my favourite authors.
Cervantes was probably the first - he recounted how the author was captured (I think, during the Battle of Lepanto) and became a galley slave, escaped, was recaptured....... "and went on to write one of the world's finest novels"
Those evenings became life-changing.
His own favourite was 'The Good Soldier Schweik' which tells of the feeble-minded soldier whose idiocy got himself drafted into the army during W.W.1 (for commenting that the flies in the local bar had shit on the portrait of The Kaiser). - that same idiocy kept him alive for the duration of the war - I'm about to embark on it for the fourth time.
Another one he introduced me to was the trilogy 'The Scots Quair' - magic.
I was quite proud when I was able to return the complement and managed to introduce him to the novels of Victor Serge - he strongly disapproved of Anarchist Serge's politics, but he took to them like a duck to water.
"academics are people who keep up the practice"
I'll think you'll find that academics read books Al - their various callings make it compulsory.
What you seen to be describing are middle-class pseuds who collect books but tend not to read them
For a while I had a number of extremely wealthy customers in London, in Knightsbridge, Kensington and Chelsea.
It used to amuse me to brows through their libraries of first editions enviously then nip off to work upstairs in the bedrooms to inevitable find Jeffry Archer at one side of the bed and Barbara Taylor Bradford at the other.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 05:31 PM

from Peggy Seeger's newsletter:

Item: A new book about Ewan MacColl, highly readable, has just come out. Legacies of Ewan MacColl, The Last Interviews, edited by Giovanni Vacca and Allan F. Moore. Unfortunately it costs £65 (£58.50 on the website) but there are plans to bring it out in about 12 months at a better price (ca. £18). It is a wonderful book - Ewan speaks for himself for most of the book. The direct link to the webpage is http://www.ashgate.com/isbn/9781409424307

Thomas.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 06:55 PM

'Jeffry Archer at one side of the bed and Barbara Taylor Bradford at the other.'
Too much information, Jim!


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Darby O'Leary
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 07:15 PM

$58 for print edition through the website... fair enough, I guess it's a hard back book on a limited print run.

However, $65 for the eBook is outrageous.

Which is a shame, as this book looks very interesting!


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 07:32 PM

it was in the 1960's a genuine academic told me how everyone quotes the same paragraph from Godwin's Political Economy - a book that at the time hadn't been available for decades. yet they all pretended that they'd read it, Jim.

Apparently they ALL do it. no one can read EVERYTHING - its common sense really. yet some people pretend they have - they have to. its their job. its like the guy who fixes your plumbing, or who fixes your car or mends your guitar.

confessing ignorance is not a confidence inspiring strategy. when's the last time in PM questions, someone said - fuck me! i didn't know about that!


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 12:38 PM

A fascinating read!
Lots to agree with vigorously, lots to disagree with radically. Lots of interesting points that I would like to know more about. Lots to challenge.....

Let's start with this one. MacColl's antipathy to Bob Dylan has been dealt with in books and magazine articles before, but in this book it is dealt with at length. I must say that his critique that Dylan is seriously over-rated is carefully thought out and well argued.

What I'd like to know is whether MacColl had a good opinion of any of the folk scene's songwriters that he would have been likely to have heard of - R. Thompson. C. Tawney, D. Goulder etc. I mean anyone outside his sphere of influence.
Anyone with any knowledge of this? Bob Blair? Jim Carroll?


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 01:48 PM

As far as I'm aware, h never expressed ann opinion on any of those mentioned, though Cyril was a regular guest at the Singers.
Peggy edited a songbook entitled 'New City Songster' which ran into 20 issues (several hundred songs) and was based on contributions from new and relatively unknown songwriters from all over the English-speaking world - of the top of my head I can remember Eric Bogle, Ed Pickford, Graeme Miles, Pete Smith, Helen Fullerton, Trevor Crozier, John Pole, Claudie Gould, Sheila Douglas, Peter Bellamy, Paul Wilson, Don Minifie, Jack Warshaw, Miles Wooton, Don Lange, Don Perrigrove, Hazel Dickson (a load of Australian songwriters following their Australian tour)....
Will happily provide a fuller list once the 'pah, humbug' season is over - been meaning to index them for a long time
Songwriting was one of the major objectives of The Critics Group throughout its existence.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 02:44 PM

Back in the seventies, some poor soul, obviously in need of care and protection, walked into the Singers Club and handed Ewan and Peggy a beautiful, leather-bound, 9 volume set of the first edition of Child's first selection of 'The English and Scottish Ballads'
At the end of the evening, Ewan announced that a jury would be selected and the books would go as a prize for the best song written that year.
John Pole (the bastard) won it with his 'Punch and Judy'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 02:58 PM

Thanks, Jim. I'd forgotten the New City Songsters when I was thinking of this.

You have sparked off a memory, though. Miles Wootton once cornered me in a folk club interval and said that he was contributing a song to New City Songsters and he was singing it to what he thought was a tune of a traditional tune. If he hummed it, could I identify it? He started humming and straight away I knew it was the tune of "Nicky Tams".


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 03:12 PM

Here is A Short Article on the New City Songster.
I'm sure that I have some of them amongst the vast piles of folk song and music magazines and ephemera that I have in my loft. Memory tells me that I thought that the standard of songwriting in them was pretty high.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 14 - 03:16 PM

the new city songster, one of the contributors was Jon Macnamara who runs bishops stortford folk club


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 03:40 AM

Great series of books with loads of good songs.
There were 20 in the series (Number one was issued twice in different formats) and when Peggy stopped doing them she circulated an unbound 20A of the residue of the songs she had left on file, which included 2 from Malvina Reynolds and one from Ian Campbell I had entirely forgotten about
In 1968, a supplement of the songs for that year's Festival of Fools was issued and had to be withdrawn because one of the the songs (based on the Beatles song Eleanor Rigby) might have infringed copyright, and the club couldn't afford to take on the might of the music industry.
Dave Scott's idiosyncratic art work made them collectors pieces.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 04:16 AM

A bit large, but this is an index of totles up to volume 15
Jim Carroll

A Plea to the Undeserving 38
A-30 (15)
A-83 (7)
Acceptable Risks 6
Advice to the Lovelorn (4/5)
Age in Between (7)
Agent Orange Song        34
All Used Up        10
Allende's Song (10)
Alvediston Shepherd (9)
Angel in Black (9)
Anti-Carol (7)
Apathy Joe        22
Asbestos Song(12)
At the Centrepoint(4/5)
At the Raleigh(9)
Automobile Song(12)
Backs Against the Wall(3)
Bad Beer(15)
Ballad of Accounting(3)
Ballad of Alison Kraus(11)
Ballad of Ho Chi Minh(6)
Ballad of Jack Lynch(4/5)
Ballad of Real Ale(13)
Ballad of Rosie (3)
Ballad of the Big Cigars(l)
Bampton Fair(12)
Band Played Waltzing Matilda(13)
Banks of the Tees(7)
Barney Hughes ' Bakery Van(4/5)
Belfast Song(12)
Bermondsey Ballad(8)
Big Man(10)
Big Mansion House(12)
Big Pneumatical Drill(3)
Big Stockbroker Country(9)
Bill From Exskineville(15)
Black and White (13)
Black Boy Ballad(2)
Black Lung(6)
Blair Peach        18
Blast Against Blackguards(14)
Bloody Wakes Week(11)
Bogside Doodle-bug(7)
Bogside Men(3)
Bold Enoch Powell(3)
Bold Librarian(13)
Boots and Laces (4/5)
Brass Band Song(15)
Breadmakin' (15)
Bridget and the PILL(3)
Brother(4/5)
Brother,Did You Weep?(l)
Buffalo Holler(7)
Building Speculator(10)
Bum Again(14)
Caged Bird(14)
Canine Eneuretic(12)
Canteen Tea(12)
Captain Reynolds(7)
Car Mechanics Song(12)
Cargo of Dread        14
Caviar on the Rent Book (7)
Che Guevara (2)
China Rag (2)
Clayton Aniline Song (3)
Coal Hole Cavalry (11)
Coldbath Fields (14)
Come Tae Your Dad (10)
Crazy Mixed-up Bull (9)
Cut-Price Hero (4/5)
Darling Annie (7)
Day I Took the Vow (7)
Deep-Sea Fishermen (10)
Different Therefore Equal(15)
Do You Wanna Come Clean? (6)
Doing Time (15)
Down at Our Canteen (11)
Dryin' Green (10)
Economy Game (14)
Emily (14)
Empires of Plenty        24
Exile Song (14)
Exploration (7)
Factory Lads (12)
Farewell to Ireland (8)
Father's Song (14) Fields of Vietnam (4/5)
Four Minute Warning        8
Fred the Computer (6)
G.M.H. Song (15)
Generations of Change (12)
Giant Leek (9)
Girls in Our Town (11)
Grape-Pickers' Tragedy(4/5)
Graveyard Shift (10)
Grey October (1)
Happy Pappy and the Funny un-People (9)
Hard Times (11)
Hello, Friend (2)
Henry Kissinger (11)
Herring Grounds o' Forth(8)
High Claylands (13)
High St. Motorway (15)
Hippies and the Beatniks (4/5)
Hollow Hill (7)
Home,Soldier,Home (13)
Homeless Man        3
Housewife's Alphabet (13)
Hull Trawler Disaster (2)
I am Homeless (14)
I Support the Boycott (1)
I Want to Lie Here in the Sun (9)
I'm Gonna be an Engineer(7)
In Canning Town (4/5)
Instant Food (6)
Internment (10)
Invader (14)
Iron-Moulder's Wedding(4/5)
Isle of May (12)
It's Really Me to Blame(15)
Jack the Lad (3)
Jack Wilson (10)        .
Jeelie-Piece Song (4/5)
Jenny Bell (6)
Jimmy Gray (7)
Jobs (12)
Juggernaut (10)
Kent Massacre (6)
King Kong (13)
Kingaroy King (13)
Labouring Man (13)
Ladybird (12)
Lairds field Disaster (8)
Lament for the Death of a Nobody (1)
Layabouts (10)
Legal Illegal (14)
Let Us Praise Famous Men and Women
Let's Pretend (9)
Lily (4/5)
Little Girl Child (15)
Little Sashes (2)
Live Wire (9)
Look at You (9)
Looking for Work (15)
Lullabye for a Very New Baby (9)
Maggie Mary        32
Manner of the World Nowadays (9)
Mary and Me (13)
McCoy Hotel (6)
McFadyen's Motor Car(10)
Men o' the North (10)
Migrant Labourer (9)
Miss Heroin (14)
Modern Army Can't Fight Song (11)
Moor o* Hograh (8)
Mr. Fox (6)
Multigrab and Unibrew (11)
My Old Man        4
My Son (4/5)
My Wedding Day (9)
Mysterious Lover (3)
Nation of Animal Lovers (8)
New Boys (6)
New Song on the City of Belfast (10)
Night Rider (9)
Nightmare (4/5)
Nightshift (6)
Night-Visiting Song (6)
Nine-Month Blues (12)
Now I'm Easy (12)
Nowhere Now (8)
O Mither, Mither (12)
Old Glasgow Town (10)
Old Grey London (12)
On the Assembly Line (14)
One Miner's Life (12)
Ones That Got Away (13)
Orange and the Green (7)
O'Reilly and the Big MacNeill (4/5)
Orient Company (4/5)
Out of My Pocket (11)
Parliamentary Polka (11)
Piddlethwaite Jug Band Hits the Charts(9)
Pit Away Your Fancy Dress(15)
Pitside is Quiet (12)
Prime Minister Cut Down in His Prime (2)
Prince Philip's Lament (4/5)
Propeller Song (11)
Punch and Judy (7)
Queensland Whalers (13)
Rambling Boy (9)
Reclaim the Night (15)
Regular Randy Dandy (10)
Requiem for a Steel Town(ll)
Roving Fifer (11)
Royalty Royalty Shock        12
Rubber Bullets (7)
Sea-Coal (7)
Sheik of Araby (10)
Shellback Song (7)
Shift-Worker's Lament (14)
Shira Dam (8)
Sick Note (12)
Simple Life (13 & 14)
Sludge-Boat Song (7)
Smuggling Men (7)
Someone Up There (8)
Song for an Irish Colleen (14)
Song for Calum (11)
Song of Choice (1)
Song of the Immigrant (13)
Song of the Sheet-metal Worker (15)
South Stratford Lady (9)
Soweto Song (14)
Stan (8)
Still He Slumbered (10)
Student Edward (1)
Swallow and Trout (11)
Sweet Thames,Flow Softly(6)
Talking Exam Blues (9)
Talking Want Ad (10)
Tall and Proud (6)
Tam Bridie (S)
Tankerman's Song (13)
Taxing Pleasures (15)
Teachers Need to do Homework (3)
Tea-Leaf Song (6)
Tees-side British (8)
Tenant Farmer (14)
Testimonial (9)
The Androids 16        
The Casuals(13)
The Channels (13)
The Children (3)
The Companeros <2)
The Dead Men (2)
The F-One-Double-One
The Harvest Home (11)
The Southern English labourer        2
The Word (10)
They All Do It        30
They'll be the Lads (7)
Three Quid a Week (9)
Tidbits for Tenants (3)
Today is his Signing Day(14)
Too Much of a Good Thing (6)
Transport Cowboy (10)
Travellers Came to Red- Bridge (4/5)
Trico Strike (13)
Trouble in Coal Country 28
Tunnel Tigers (4/5)
Uncle Sam (6)
Unknown Soldier (4/5)
Up in Wisconsin (11)
Voices from the Mountain (14)
Wasteland Lullabye (4/5)
Watergate (9)
We Are the Engineers (6)
We Are the Young Ones (6)
We Don't Want to Live Like That (3)
We'll All be Home & Dry(15)
Western Trader (6)
Westgate Bridge (8)
What Care I? (15)
When the Bells Ring (15)
Where is Your Daddy,Son?(15)
White Tornado (3)
Wild Colonial Boy (13)
Winnie and Sam (14)
Winter Song (11)
Winter Song (12)
With Love to Angela(7)
Wolviston Rook Shoot (7)
Workers' Christmas Carol(ll)
Workers' Song(13)
Work-Study Song (11)
Yankee Doodle (6)
You and I (14)


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 21 Dec 14 - 04:56 AM

just got tickets for a celtic connections gig -'Blood and Roses:the songs of ewan MacColl' with kate st john, dick gaughan, eliza and martin carthy, karine polwart and...... jarvis cocker. 25 jan at the royal concert hall -see you there, comrades!


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Feb 15 - 09:47 AM

The latest issue of English Dance and Song contains a perspicacious and thought provoking review article by Vic Gammon.

It also contains details of an offer whereby EDS readers can buy the book from Ashgate at 50% discount. IE., £32.50. That is:-

a. One hell of a reduction, which brings it into line with the RRPs' of many other hardbacks.

b. One hell of a handy reason for joining EFDSS, and thereby enjoying all the benefits of membership. What's more, if you're an old time old age pensioner like me, it means you can join EFDSS at the reduced rate of £31-00, buy the book, and still be £1-50 up on the original Ashgate purchase price.

Congratulations to Derek Schofield (if it was he) for negotiating the deal. May it be the first of many.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 04:29 AM

Thanks Fred. Glad you enjoyed the review article and, when it arrives, hope you enjoy the book. Hopefully enough people will buy the book and so encourage ashgate to do deals on some of their other books.... Derek


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 04:40 AM

Ewan was very nice to me. and i am very proud to have had a song in NCS.

still - i don't want to seem ungrateful, but the books still a bit on the pricey side - especially for someone with guitar strings to buy and other staples.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 04:57 AM

Were the legacies of Ewan MacColl covered by the trouseracies of Ewa...

Oh, never mind.

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 06:06 AM

The book arrived yesterday, si Haven't had time to delve into it. However, I was glad to see Doc Rowe listed as a contributor for the use of some of his photographs. Also that there is a chapter in there about MacColl's singing style. Considering the importance he placed on style and interpretation, it is surprising that we have had to wait until now for a detailed analysis.

However, photograph No 1, which seems not to be one of Doc's own, has the tagline "Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger collecting in the early 1960s". It shows Ewan and Peggy in a pub, talking to an old bloke in a cloth cap and muffler. Unfortunately his face is obscured and I can't for the life of me think who he could be.

Does anyone know?


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 06:21 AM

Well, you could try asking Doc himself, Fred. I'll send you his email address - and if he can't remember. I'll scan it and put up a link here to it.

My money would be that the photo is taken in a pub in East Anglia.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 08:42 AM

someone out of the shot is holding the microphone... I'm guessing that could have been Charles Parker and that it was during the Radio Ballads research....
Derek


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 10:37 AM

I'm guessing that could have been Charles Parker and that it was during the Radio Ballads research.
I would have thought not, Derek, The photo is dated "early 1960s" which most probably cuts out the first four. The fourth The Big Hewer was broadcast in early 1961 so recording/research/preparation would have been before that.
The second four were The Body Blow (1962) polio, On the Edge (1963) teenagers, The Fight Game (1963) boxers and The Travelling People (1964). Well the first three do not look as though they relate to the photo in the book and unless it is something that did not make it anywhere near the final programme, it is not the last one either.

Of course, if the Doc Rowe collection were all on-line and searchable it would make things easier - but that would be a bit of a task as there are more than 40,000 photos alone apart from:-

   * audio and video recordings (with related documentation and transcripts); photographs and transparencies (both archival and contemporary);
   * written and printed material (photocopies or published volumes);
   * field notes;
   * correspondence;
   * artefacts and posters;
   * newspaper cuttings.
Etc.etc.....


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 02:42 PM

well, Vic, I was assuming that the dating of the photo might have been a bit of a guess :-) I assume it's not a photo that Doc took, hence the credit "Doc Rowe Collection". Presumably the photographer is not known, hence the lack of a credit...
Who was Ewan collecting from the in the early 1960s..?
Derek


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 02:59 PM

I assume it's not a photo that Doc took, hence the credit "Doc Rowe Collection".

Well, you may well be right, Derek. He certainly would have been young in the "early 1960s" of the estimated date. I was going by the photo credits page where it says:-
List of Photos
Unless otherwise stated, all photographs are © Doc Rowe. Reproduced with kind permission of the photographer.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 03:00 PM

He did some recording of Harry Cox along with Alan Lomax - not sure of the date.
Before that, he worked with Joan Littlewood on a programme entitled 'The Ballad Hunter' but that was way back
Doc once said that he was recording in Padstow at one time - not sure when.
Radio Ballads were made between 1958 and 1962 - Singing the Fishing in 1960
The actuality was recorded within a couple of months of them being broadcast.
Ewan also did some documentary work for the Beeb with Denis Mitchell.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Mar 15 - 03:25 PM

He did some recording of Harry Cox.....

Certainly a possibility. It was the sort of cap that Harry wore. It is just a pity that the jaunty angle of it obscures so much of the face.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 02:35 AM

Have yet to see the photograph
There are a series of photographs of Ewan recording speakers for 'Singing the Fishing', Norfolk fisherman Ronnie Balls among them - MacColl spoke of him often.
Some of these are included in 'Journeyman'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 07:11 AM

Vic ... you wrote:

"" Well, you may well be right, Derek. He certainly would have been young in the "early 1960s" of the estimated date. I was going by the photo credits page where it says:-
List of Photos Unless otherwise stated, all photographs are © Doc Rowe. Reproduced with kind permission of the photographer.""

yes, and against that photo, there is the comment "Photo: Doc Rowe Collection". I interpret that as meaning ... not copyright Doc Rowe as he didn't take the photo... but he has a copy of it. There is no similar comment for the other photo credits so we assume that they were all taken by Doc. But not this one.

Jim .. the photo is not in either edition of Journeyman..

Derek


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 07:26 AM

Didn't think it was Derek - I said there were a series taken at the time of the making of 'Singing the Fishing' and wondered whether the one in the new book compared in any way - will look when our copy arrives (thanks, btw)
I know that Doc had access to Charles Parker's photos and recordings because of their friendship,
The fact that it is captioned as "Photo: Doc Rowe Collection", makes me suspect that this is one of those.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 07:37 AM

Ewan MacColl was the best thing before and after sliced bread.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Mar 15 - 10:41 AM

Actually, Dick, I have often wondered why people think sliced bread is so great? It's OK, but doesn't compare with the delicious light rye loaves I used to make in my Panasonic breadmaker before I got too lazy. Must make effort to get back to real bread, not this makeshift sliced substitute...

Or maybe you were subtly trying to imply that Ewan was not a real, but a makeshift substitute, folksinger?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 10:11 AM

Legacies of Ewan MacColl is reviewed in the new April edition of fRoots which has just dropped through the letter box.


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