BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 05:43 AM

Jim, massacres were committed by both sides in 1948.
I acknowledge now and have never denied that some Jews committed vile crimes at that time.
Morris

You claim recent massacres and atrocities.
Israel denies them, and no unequivocal evidence for them has been provided.

Do not just deny that without reminding us what it is.

You keep demanding that we respond to the work of Benny Morris.

He says,
"There was no Zionist 'plan' or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of 'ethnic cleansing'" and "the demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies—much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies."

He says,
"These are small war crimes. All told, if we take all the massacres and all the executions of 1948, we come to about 800 who were killed. In comparison to the massacres that were perpetrated in Bosnia, that's peanuts. In comparison to the massacres the Russians perpetrated against the Germans at Stalingrad, that's chicken feed. When you take into account that there was a bloody civil war here and that we lost an entire 1 percent of the population, you find that we behaved very well."

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 05:13 AM

"Mind·made·up·please·do·not·confuse·with·facts" "
As with your friends Mike, you are extremely welcome to challenge any of the facts I have put up - I dearly wish would would.
The fact that you or they have never even attempted to do so is a pretty strong confirmation that they are what I believe them to be - facts.
"Do you mean in 1948 Jim?"
You have denied over and over again that there have ever been massacres "no massacres", "what massacres" - when I put Morris's statement up you said he had been disputed - not another wriggle after so many, surely?
Or maybe you were only defending "three points".
He stated that Israel carried out 27 massacres - that is twenty seven more than "none".
Maybe "behaving well" to some people - not where I was brought up.
You stated that Morris's claims had been disputed - they haven't, you lied.
Odd though that you should be now hiding behind a single statement of a "disputed" historian - or maybe not!!
Expulsion not a war crime - the refusal to allow millions of people to return to their homes following a war goes beyond a war crime and is a crime against humanity.
The most recent expulsions/expansionism/spread of settlements/evictions of Palestinians - Bedouins included, is what makes what is happening ethnic cleansing.
"Not rue Jim.
I said that one of your quotes was faked, and the other probably was."
Do you really want me to dig our all your postings claiming Ben Gurion was "only putting the Arab point of view when he admitted stealing their land" - surely not - remember the not digging when you're in a hole" proverb.   
Your case for the massacres is that Israel carried them out (or "didn't") because they were harbouring fighters - that is supporting killing hostages - if you're not, you should vebe condemning them.
"Give your most incriminating fact."
You've had all the facts, over and over again - but their rrefusal to stand trial and to bring the International crimes court crashing in flames is fairly incriminating - you have yet to address the consequences of that.
"I just pointed out that some means of identifying those entitled to free food was required,"
That is defending something that has been compared to the wearing of yellow stars, was compulsory indoors and out, has brought about racist abuse and has now been exposed for what it is and abandoned - you lied about that as you have here - seems an inbuilt trait.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 04:29 AM

Mike, I think we should copy the last paragraph of your 12:34AM post over to the hate speech thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 01:13 AM

I did not suggest that I knew all there is to know about Israel simply because I had lived there. But I do know enough to state that it is not the country that Jim Carroll describes.
There are many people in Israel who are critical of the government, there are many Jews outside Israel who are also very disturbed by the state of affairs in Israel . I do agree with you about Likud, they will not move the country any nearer to peace. But rhetoric like Jims is not helpful. It has the opposit effect and drives people of reason crazy.
It is possible, believe it or not, that Jim Carroll is wrong! I, for one, do not believe in his infallibility!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 01:11 AM

Jim: Sorry to hear about the birthday card. Hope your sister apologised when you pointed it out

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:34 AM

Jim: Not sure why I am bothering to engage with you yet again, as you appear to me to be of all my online acquaintance the prime exemplar of the "Mind·made·up·please·do·not·confuse·with·facts" syndrome. But there are nevertheless many things I do respect about you; so will simply ask, in mild tones:-

If "disappointed" is too mild a term to satisfy you as to my feeling abut how Israel has turned out after all our youthful labours and hopes for it, so you lump me in your blanket denunciation of all who have the temerity to differ with the opinions of the egregiously impeccably-opinioned J Carroll, what word would you prefer or suggest instead?

Steve: Agree with you about many things too; but can't make out where you are coming from in associating yourself with the scaredikatz who denounce UKIP as being indistinguishable from the NF & BNP & such when it is a respectable party whose admirable aim is to get us out of the stinking EU which we should never have joined in the first place only pathetic·bleeding·Heath wanted his vile name to go down in history. I voted for UKIP & shall again [if I live till the next election -- 84 this year!]. & what do you want to make of it, eh!? Bloody impertinence, thus denouncing the way I exercise my own free vote! Surprised at you!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:51 PM

Not true Steve.
You accused me of partial quoting, when I had already quoted the relevant passage in full.
There was no deception as you tried to claim. Everyone knew what was in it because I had posted it already.

You had no case.

See how instead of discussing the current subject, Steve like Jim tries to slander me with misrepresentations of long ago threads.

Anything to say about Mid East conflict Steve, or are you just going to make accusations from the past about me personally instead?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:52 PM

And Keith, you made yourself a laughing stock over the Wheatcroft affair. You lied and twisted and wriggled and we all laughed our bollocks off. Even Teribus struggled with it. Please don't make me dig all that up again. Jaysus, I'm tempted...

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:46 PM

Well HiLo, I am very glad to see you distancing yourselves from Keith, Teribus, akenaton and the squalid Guest-coward. Your star is in the ascendancy, for sure. As for me, I speak only for myself and I'll criticise my ostensible allies if and when. I've done that with Musket several times and he's done it to me and we both take it like men (or women). Likewise, Dave. Even Jim has been known to give me (what we called on Radcliffe Parks Department) a small bollocking. And I he. We're honest brokers on the whole and we have rhino hides.

Now you lived in Israel for a while. Good. Unfortunately, there are people in the UK who have lived here all their lives yet who appear to be pig-ignorant about politics and society. Why, some of them even vote UKIP. I'm afraid that living there isn't much of a qualification for knowing everything about the place. After all, so many Israeli citizens vote Likud, a strategy that will serve only to keep them in fear and insecurity forever. So living there does not necessarily equate with superior inside knowledge. Two of my uncles went to live for many years in Rhodesia and they both kept "boys" in shacks at the bottom of their gardens. The "boys'" families were basically slaves. You should have heard their justifications for that. When they were finally forced back to the UK they told us that it was what the blacks wanted and that there was no other way to run the place and that we simply didn't understand because we'd never been there. Ring any bells? Perhaps, in the words of Brian Clough, we can discuss this for twenty minutes or so before agreeing that I'm right. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:23 PM

Jim,
that the Israelis facilitated the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees on the pretence that they were searching for fighters and arms - neither were ever found.

Israel denies even knowing about the massacre until it started. They then acted to end it.

There most certainly were fighters and arms in the camp and I will happily provide proof.

You have claimed that David Ben Gurion's statement was a "fake" after having accepted it and claimed he meant something else - you lied twice

Not rue Jim.
I said that one of your quotes was faked, and the other probably was.
In any case, that one even if genuine gives the Arab view not his own.

You have refused to acknowledge that Israel has not only attempted to avoid being tried for war crimes but she has attempted to have the International Criminal Court Closed down in order to do so.

It is not true that Israel "has attempted to have the International Criminal Court Closed down"
They have no power to do such a thing.
They have been co-operating with ICC not trying to destroy it.

You said that you weren't in favour of killing hostages

Made up Jim.
No-one is in favour of killing hostages, but I have made no statement that it is never justified.

You have been given reams of evidence implicating Israel in war crimes and massacres, yet you claim there is none - you are lying.

No such evidence has been provided.
Now would be a good time.
Give your most incriminating fact.

You are now defending the enforced wearing of armbands by asylum seekers,

Not true.
I just pointed out that some means of identifying those entitled to free food was required, and that wristbands were the usual way of doing that, with clear advantages over other means of ID.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:09 PM

Steve,
I demolished him over his falsehoods with regard to Geoffrey Wheatcroft.

Not true. I had already quoted him in full, and later gave a partial quote. There was no deception and your attempted "demolition" fell flat.

Jim,
Benny Morris listed 27 massacres -

Do you mean in 1948 Jim?
This is what he really says about it.

"When you take into account that there was a bloody civil war here and that we lost an entire 1 percent of the population, you find that we behaved very well."

"There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes."

" Compared to the wars of other nations, the number of these criminal acts is low. But it is true that if you compare this to the behavior of the Israeli army in other wars, there were more black deeds in 1948. There were people who lost control of their inhibitions. There were people who came out of the death camps in Europe and this stuck in their minds. They wanted to take revenge on the goyim [non-Jews]. There were men who fought for an entire year because the Arabs forced them to fight. They felt they were coerced into war, and they wanted to avenge the deaths of their comrades in arms. Every nation has stains on its history. And the black deeds in this war are one of the stains on our history. "

"One also should remember that we did not win easily, and to lose 1 percent of the population (around 5,800 killed on the Israeli side) is a very high percentage. Numbers like these would be intolerable in a normal society."

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:26 PM

Keith
Benny Morris listed 27 massacres - you said there were no massacres - you said that his claims had been disputed - you lied.
You said that there have never been any massacres - ever - you lied
You have denigrated the Holocaust survivors and their families and associates.
You have supported the Israeli regime rather than the Jewish people.
You have denigrated eye-witnesses to the Sabra/Shatila massacre in order to deny what is an established fact - that the Israelis facilitated the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees on the pretence that they were searching for fighters and arms - neither were ever found.
Youu claimed that no massacres of prisoners took place after the Six Days war yet that fact is still available for viewing on the 'Storyville' film which you claim to have watched - you lied.
You have claimed that David Ben Gurion's statement was a "fake" after having accepted it and claimed he meant something else - you lied twice.
You have refused to acknowledge that Israel has not only attempted to avoid being tried for war crimes but she has attempted to have the International Criminal Court Closed down in order to do so.
You said that you weren't in favour of killing hostages yet you are now basing the support of 2015 massacres on just that - killing hostages.
You have been given reams of evidence implicating Israel in war crimes and massacres, yet you claim there is none - you are lying.
You are now defending the enforced wearing of armbands by asylum seekers, practice that has been compared to the enforced wearing of Yellow Stars by Jews - which makes you what you are.
Mike says he is "disappointed" which makes him what he is.
I was "disappointed" when my sister forgot to send me a birthday card.   
What a sad, squalid bunch you all are, without exception.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:41 PM

First of all Steve, I have no "mates" here. And I am not biased, I have no problem with legitimate criticism of Israel.    Why would anyone attempt to "pick apart" his kind of nonsense Jim hurls up here. . If you cannot see what is obvious in his stance, that is not my concern. your observation about those arguments supported only by zionists viewpoints don,t seem to extend to anti Israel viewpoints . Work as hard as Jim, Jim only works, if you wish to go fishing for support of one sided views. I am critical of Jim , not because of his viewpoint, but because he has no viewpoint. He has only one objective, to vilify Israel. How does one reason with that.
As for others who disagree with him, and there are many, that is their business. but it does not equate to them being my mates. so let us be clear about that. are all those who agree with Jim your mates. You need to get off that "you lot" hobby horse Steve!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:40 PM

Care to list those anti-Israel websites, if you're so sure about them? Thought not! Talk is so easy...

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:34 PM

The trouble, HiLo, is that you're biased.

Do you think that might be because HiLo lived there and knows the reality of the place first hand unlike those who just surf anti Israel websites for their information?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:30 PM

Simply whine about name-calling and you just won't.

Kind of like constantly whining about the house rules eh! Kettle meet pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:26 PM

These are small war crimes. [but war crimes nonetheless]

Even though we are oppressing the Palestinians

Amen, brother Benny.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:16 PM

The trouble, HiLo, is that you're biased. That's fine. So am I. There comes a time when you have to look at your opponents' viewpoints to see whether they've supported them. I note that you you do not criticise our vacuous Guest's viewpoints, which are generally either unsupported or are supported by Zionist sources only. Jim goes to considerable lengths to support his arguments. It's up to you to pick over his points and links and demolish them if you don't like them. That's what I do with Keith when I can be arsed. I demolished him over his falsehoods with regard to Geoffrey Wheatcroft. It was easy because you can't erase your lies on this website. If you don't agree with Jim it's down to you, if you can be arsed, to pick him apart. You don't do that. You just complain because you don't agree. Not good enough. So there's a challenge for you. Work as hard as Jim and you might get somewhere. Simply whine about name-calling and you just won't. Why not? Because your own mates here do it all the time, you don't bollock them, and we can all see that.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:50 PM

"There was no Zionist 'plan' or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of 'ethnic cleansing'" and "the demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies—much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two."

Amen brother Benny.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:18 PM

Jim, some Benny Morris quotes for you.
I can also list some of the many historians who refute his work.

Morris summarized his current political views of the Arab-Israeli conflict in the Irish Times (and other publications):

"There was no Zionist 'plan' or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of 'ethnic cleansing'" and "the demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies—much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two."

"You have to put things in proportion. These are small war crimes. All told, if we take all the massacres and all the executions of 1948, we come to about 800 who were killed. In comparison to the massacres that were perpetrated in Bosnia, that's peanuts. In comparison to the massacres the Russians perpetrated against the Germans at Stalingrad, that's chicken feed. When you take into account that there was a bloody civil war here and that we lost an entire 1 percent of the population, you find that we behaved very well."

In the Haaretz interview, he said:
"There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes."

"True, I always voted Labor or Meretz or Sheli and in 1988 I refused to serve in the territories and was jailed for it, but I always doubted the intentions of the Palestinians. The events of Camp David and what followed in their wake turned the doubt into certainty. When the Palestinians rejected the proposal of [prime minister Ehud] Barak in July 2000 and the Clinton proposal in December 2000, I understood that they are unwilling to accept the two-state solution. They want it all: Lod and Acre and Jaffa."

"The bombing of the buses and restaurants really shook me. They made me understand the depth of the hatred for us. They made me understand that the Palestinian, Arab and Muslim hostility toward Jewish existence here is taking us to the brink of destruction.... Palestinian society is a very sick society. It should be treated the way we treat individuals who are serial killers. Maybe over the years the establishment of a Palestinian state will help in the healing process. But in the meantime, until the medicine is found, they have to be contained so that they will not succeed in murdering us.... Something like a cage has to be built for them. I know that sounds terrible. It is really cruel. But there is no choice. There is a wild animal there that has to be locked up in one way or another."

"We are the greater victims in the course of history and we are also the greater potential victim. Even though we are oppressing the Palestinians, we are the weaker side here. We are a small minority in a large sea of hostile Arabs who want to eliminate us. So it's possible than [sic] when their desire is realized, everyone will understand what I am saying to you now. Everyone will understand we are the true victims. But by then it will be too late."

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:01 PM

Jim,
I didn't bring it up - Mike did, but but Israeli youth wearing Neo Nazi insignia is very much an issue here and elsewhere

You know that Nazi insignia has not been worn by any Israeli youth.
You are being dishonest Jim.
Someone had a T shirt with the logo, 'Good night left side'
That is the whole story.

Answer their points,

What points? All I see is claims and accusations, all unsubstantiated.

I've been thinking about your scummy dismissal of the Survivors and their friends and families

I have not dismissed them.
They are entitled to their opinion, which is shared by many but not all. What is your point?

answer the evidence you have been given, from Jewish a historian whose accounts of massacres have never been challenged by you,

I have given the Israeli side of the story on Gaza and Beirut.
What other so called massacres or atrocities do you want me to address next?

ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO WALK AWAY FROM YOUR CLAIM THAT MORRIS'S EVIDENCE HAS BEEN CHALLENGED?

If you think that all historians agree with him you are deluded.

5* Hotel in Britain you would be subject to the same demand,

I am not aware of any UK hotels offering all inclusive stays, but in foreign resorts many do and rely on wristbands (NOT armbands.) I have stayed in eight in recent years.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 04:55 PM

No Steve, I am in no way in awe of his thoroughness,. He links only to those things which support his views, that is called cherry picking. see his comments on holocaust survivors.. He mentions no other views, especially the views of Other students of the holocaust. Nor does he mention who these "survivors are . Very one sided, just a blatant statement about the condemnation of Israel by these people as representing all holocaust survivors.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 04:29 PM

Well, HiLo, you may disapprove of Jim's form of response but you really can't mean him when you say "only form of response". Jim responds largely by tightly and effectively arguing his corner in considerable detail and he provides more links than anyone else. You may not respect his viewpoint but you've got to be in awe of his thoroughness.

As for you, Guest-coward, I do not complain about the forum rules. I've said about ten times more often than anyone else here that this is not my gig. What I do is comment on the lack of forum rules. I hope that my suggestion of unique monikers and logged-in posters only will be seen as a helpful notion in trying to clear this place of the kind of abuse and bigotry that cowardly and dishonest people like you infect it with.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 04:00 PM

Not a threat, not shaming the Jewish people
https://jewishphilosophyplace.wordpress.com/2014/07/14/black-shirt-jewish-neo-nazis-israel-2014-good-night-left-side/
The Survivors have every right to be ashamed and angry at what Israel has become
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 03:25 PM

"The photo Haaretz is referring to was supplied by an extremist left wing (the usual Marxist-Leninist bores) "
Is there no lengths you people wil go in order to smear opponents of this right wing regime - where is your proof that who took this photo or what he is - the Journalist, Ofer Adaret is a tried and trusted israeli Journalist who regularly writes in Haaretz.
The same story appears elsewhere anyway - I chose Haaretz forgetting it was a Marxist- Leninist rag
You really are the pits
"Insignia" is not an issue, as you just conceded Jim."
I didn't bring it up - Mike did, but but Israeli youth wearing Neo Nazi insignia is very much an issue here and elsewhere - it confirms everything my Manchester Jewish friends shocked we with backi in the sixties - and it confirms what the ex head of Mossad said in The Gatekeepers..
I've been thinking about your scummy dismissal of the Survivors and their friends and families.
To be an actual survivor one would have to be around 75 years of age - to have been an adult during the Holocaust you would have to be approaching 90 - on yours, and Israel's reckoning The Holocaust no longer has a voice in Israel because but for a few, those that were there are now dead (sort of like your dead/living historians argument.
That's how disgustingly low you people have sunk to in defending these mass murderers.
Answer their points, answer the evidence you have been given, from Jewish a historian whose accounts of massacres have never been challenged by you, ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO WALK AWAY FROM YOUR CLAIM THAT MORRIS'S EVIDENCE HAS BEEN CHALLENGED? - SUPPOSE YOU ARE and all the eye witnesses and investigators who have challenged every claim you have ever made.
Some people have thrown a wobbler at being accused of Antisemitism, despite the fact that they have all, at one time or another, accused critics of the Israeli Terrorist regime of the same.
Running concurrently with this is a thread on which at least one vociferous defender of Israel here is arguing on behalf of making asylum seekers wear identifying armbands, which have been compared to the Jewish, yellow stars', and the siting of red plaques on their homes, both of which have exposed them to racist abuse and actual attacks and have now been abandoned due to nationwide protest.
The star of this disgusting argument is putting forward and equally vociferous defence hear, his main claim being that if you stop in a 5* Hotel in Britain you would be subject to the same demand, that you would have to wear an armband.
I make no apologies for describing the level of some of this discussion as being "Antisemitic" - if it goose-steps - it is what it appears to be.
I'm off -not a bad night on Tele - bit of light relief from this squalidness.
Jim Carroll
Just spotted your reply Mike - sorry if I misjuged your part in this - multi-tasking again

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:55 PM

Steve -- Thanks for clarifying above that it wasn't me you meant. Sorry for my thus mistakenly truculent response. This is a somewhat heating-up sort of thread, leading to

"...in this upshot purposes mistook
Fall'n on the inventors' heads"
          Hamlet, Act V

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:47 PM

"we are arguing that the various regimes have thrown away the dream of Israel and turned it into an oppressive state." ---

Yes, Jim; that is what is so disappointing
.....

"Wonder what Mike is making of all this?"---

Well, I've just told you ...
.,,.,.

"Whoops - he seems to be supporting it."---

Whoops! No he bloody doesn't. How the hell do you possibly make that out, Jim? You make a point of refusing to listen, or of impugning my integrity & sincerity every time I say what I really think; stuffing your fingers in your ears & shrieking 'lipservice' like a bloody parrot; & I am getting fucking pissed off with it - you should be fucking well ashamed

(& you know how often I sue that sort of locution)---

but I don't expect you are

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:21 PM

The photo Haaretz is referring to was supplied by an extremist left wing (the usual Marxist-Leninist bores) Occupy Judaism. There are two unidentified individuals in the photo. They don't show what the caption shows, namely attacks on anyone let alone (extreme) left "activists". They are cleverly cut off, showing only a part of the situation. This is image manipulation, so it casts doubts about the authenticity of the images and the objectives of those who publish them.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:13 PM

'Good night left side' is said to be a neo-nazi slogan.
"Insignia" is not an issue, as you just conceded Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:09 PM

Jim,
You'll have to follow this one up I haven't teh time nor the inclination

All it says is,
Right-wing Demonstrators in Tel Aviv Wore neo-Nazi Shirts
Not only did the demonstrators beat leftists, they wore 'Good night left side' T-shirts, photographs show.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.605234

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:04 PM

They deserve having their points addressed an do we all.

What points?
All I see is unsubstantiated claims accusations. None were anywhere near Gaza.
Please identify any actual point you would like me to address.

Your response is still "Israel didn't do it"

My response has been to put Israel's side of the story, that it acted within International Law against war criminal terrorists who flouted it, thereby placing their own civilians in harms way to protect their fighters.

No evidence has been put forward by anyone to contradict any of that.
Will anyone produce something now?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:01 PM

You'll have to follow this one up I haven't teh time nor the inclination
Haaretz
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:55 PM

"The answer is that they are entitled to their opinion"
They deserve having their points addressed an do we all.
Your response is still "Israel didn't do it"
By the way - the Neo Nazi insignia refers to logos on Tee shirts.
Similar accusations were made by the Former Mossad lewader who appeared in The Gatekeepers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:48 PM

"imagine a logged-in member to expect to get away with calling someone a Jew-hater"

Have you spotted any Islamophobes today, Shaw?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:47 PM

So, their opinions are just opinions, not evidence
As are your's and Bearded Fred's, Professor.

Yes. Also yours and Jim's.

So the Holocaust Survivors don't deserve an answer ?

The answer is that they are entitled to their opinion, which some share and some do not.
Either way it is not evidence for or against.
What is the point of posting anyone's unsubstantiated claims and accusations?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:41 PM

So the Holocaust Survivors don't deserve an answer ?
"says they are a minority.
So minorities don't deserve an answer either?
"
"Most Holocaust survivors, like most Jews, are Zionists and are strongly devoted to the welfare of the State of Israel."
Who is ****** suggesting we aren't or the Holocaust survivors aren't?
They and we are arguing that the various regimes have thrown away the dream of Israel and turned it into an oppressive state.
And all you can produce if pro-Isreali propaganda denigrating those survivors and their relatives
Try answering the points they mad - that would be the honest thing to do instead of smearing them as the Israelis have
You are every bit as disgusting as they are.
Wonder what Mike is making of all this?
Whoops - he seems to be supporting it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:37 PM

Too many guests spoil the thread

I'd say it's those who, instead of making constructive contributions, make comments about other posters. But that's just MHO.

I might also add that it is those who complain, repetitively, about the forum rules. Again IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:37 PM

So, their opinions are just opinions, not evidence

As are your's and Bearded Fred's, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:24 PM

Jim,
Are you suggesting that the Holcaust Survivors statement was a fake?

Of course not, but what is your point?
There are many people who strongly support one side or the other, but quoting them is not evidence for one side or the other.
They are expressing opinions not evidence.

Alvin H. Rosenfeld (professor of English and Jewish Studies and director of Institute for the Study of Contemporary Antisemitism at Indiana University.) says they are a minority.

"Most Holocaust survivors, like most Jews, are Zionists and are strongly devoted to the welfare of the State of Israel. The IJSN/IJAN group is exceptional in its fierce opposition to Israel and is hardly representative. That fact, however, did not keep the BBC from quickly publishing a story with the title "Holocaust survivors condemn Israel." The impression conveyed is seriously misleading."

He says,
"What makes the IJSN statement noteworthy, therefore, is not the litany of emotionally-charged accusations against Israel but the identities of those making these accusations. They present themselves as "Survivors," "Children of survivors," "Grandchildren of survivors," "Great-grandchildren of survivors," and "Other relatives of survivors."
They total 327 people."

"If we take their self-descriptions at face value, some (a small number) had been in the Nazi ghettos and camps or claim to have been resistance fighters. Others had been children spirited out of Europe on the Kindertransports or were hidden by Christians during the war. Some say they are "cousins of survivors," or "friends of survivors," or "relatives of victims," or "relatives of many victims," or the "spouse of a hidden child," or grandchildren and great-grandchildren of "refugees." One identifies herself as "the great niece of an uncle who shot himself"; another as a "3rd cousin of Ann [sic] Frank and grand-daughter of NON-survivors."
http://forward.com/opinion/israel/204790/moral-emptiness-of-holocaust-survivors-who-took-on/



So, their opinions are just opinions, not evidence against Israel, and
few of them are really "survivors" at all.
http://forward.com/opinion/israel/204790/moral-emptiness-of-holocaust-survivors-who-took-on/

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:54 PM

I do agree about the guests Steve. Unfortunately,guests are not alone in this name calling business! There are several regular posters who excell T it and it seems, in many cases that it is their only form of response, and it. Is ugly name calling, crude and offensive at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:29 PM

To confirm, I was addressing the Guest, not Michael. And my last one was to HiLo.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:27 PM

It doesn't make me agree. The most civil forum I'm on is one on which everyone's real name is in their profile, which all logged-in members can read. You're allowed a pseudonym if you don't want to get googled, but it's surprising how many people don't bother with one. Crucially, and mods are you listening, your moniker is unique, there are no "guests" and you don't get to post unless you're registered and logged in. There is occasional bad temper but the need for moderation is rare. The Guest in this thread posts illiberal, bigoted nonsense BECAUSE he can hide behind his anonymity. You wouldn't imagine a logged-in member to expect to get away with calling someone a Jew-hater, would you? It isn't even possible to distinguish one guest's posting history from another. Ridiculous. His constant "explanation" for his anonymity is just a lie. Don't be fooled. May I just call him another name? He's a charlatan, and I think you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:24 PM

Tho it appears from your crossposted next post, addressed to me, Steve, that it wasn't me whom you were addressing last time after all. Oh dear. Think I'll just come back after Liverpool v W Ham which is about to kick off.

Down with Likud!

CU·later

Mebbe

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:20 PM

I did read it, Steve. That is precisely the bit I quoted & queried. No idea what you are on about this time. Sorry. Really no idea quite what you meant:-

but why were you being so sarcastically rude? Thought you had just proclaimed that you, like me in general, find it best to eschew such a tone.

Regards: ≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:16 PM

Well, Steve, as you say it is not a competition. My objection to the name calling has nothing to do with me being thin skinned, it has to do with the total irrationality of it. Because I disagree with Jim, I am accused of all sorts of evil things. I do not hold you or anyone else responsible for Jims assnine accusations. However, It seems to me that there are those posting here who seem to think that this type of name calling response is an actual form of debate.
It does make you half agree with "guest" postings. Why would someone turn themselves into a target for that kind of abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:15 PM

Well, Michael, I'm a lot more sympathetic to ordinary Israeli people than it may sometimes appear from my posts (though I've never once criticised them). Your sentiments are also mine. There will be a lot we disagree with apropos of what goes on in that benighted part of the world, but you may agree that there will never be peace while the Likud philosophy prevails.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:08 PM

I think you need to read Jim's post just after "full text of letter". Oops, sorry, I forgot that you don't read Jim's posts. You seem to have just proved it.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:08 PM

This struck me particularly from above article

"right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia"

Can anyone provide details of how such insignia appear? Any illustrations?

≈M≈

Oh, but I'm finding all this so profoundly depressing. None of all this is the way we meant it to be all those years ago. We would have laughed to scorn any suggestion that Likud, the unspeakable Begin's party, could ever become the more or less perpetual majority party. I could literally cry.

I expect Jim will come up with his 'lip·service' parrot-cry yet again: tho what grounds he has ever imagined he had for such gross impertinence, or what satisfaction it ever brought him, are things I have never contrived to make out.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:04 PM

Well, HiLo, I think I win hands down in any competition with you with regard to having been called names, but I'm not that bothered. I decided a while ago to try to avoid calling people names. Note that you are HiLo and that Mr Woodcock is Teribus and that Keith is Keith and that akenaton is akenaton in my lexicon (I do believe that I called him a twit the other day - cor, strike me down! - and I call the excruciatingly unwelcome Guest a coward. I'll burn in hell, eh?) Even Joe Offer calls me names. What I've found, oddly, is that I have an infinitely greater capacity for annoying people by keeping cool and not calling people names. I can't explain that, but it works for me! Jim name-calling is his business. I'm not my comrade's keeper! (Sorry, Jim!)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:03 PM

Too many guests spoil the thread

I'd say it's those who, instead of making constructive contributions, make comments about other posters. But that's just MHO.