BS: brexit matters

Subject: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 08:28 AM

Are we allowed to discuss this?
Papers have been leaked revealing plans for EU immigration post brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 09:03 AM

All the US immigration plans consists of Walls, Deportation, Moats, Man eating border goats and 24/7 refuse incinerator electricity plants fed by
rail cars. (?)

Signs reassure that if you are white you are all right.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 09:22 AM

Awful business. As a remainer no-one's listening anyway, all I can do is watch on in despair as the lunacy continues.

What sort of people are we becoming on these islands?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 11:41 AM

Here's my considered guess..

Tory govt will severely reduce low skilled EU workers,
then respond to outcry from businesses that depend on them
with compulsory workfare programs for UK citizen benefit claimants...???

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 12:03 PM

"That's up to you Keith - you are the one who always attempts to interfere with what people say
Your opening post and the two following indicate that racism connected to immigration will feature heavily as will comparisons with Trump's wall
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 12:25 PM

PFR....you are dead right, and about time too.

The ability to do exactly as we like whenever we like will be severely curtailed....we will no longer be able to sit on our arses and watch "someone else do it"

After five decades we will be asked once again to bear some responsibility for ourselves and our families.

All the social idiocies will be questioned, the waste of money in the NHS which at the moment is asked to be fairy godmother to all manner of unhealthy behaviour, from tobacco smoking to any number of psychiatric cop outs.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 12:41 PM

Ake - ..of course the tories will spin it triumphantly as a wonderful opportunity for new 'apprenticeships' and enhancing employment skills...
The nation pulling together in the WW2 spirit...

Thousands of urban sink estate 'jobseekers' coercively bussed out to countryside farming labour camps... 🙄

jail time for all refusing to dig up spuds and sprouts...

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 12:45 PM

That is little more that the old usual Tory rant Ake
Go to the North of England and see the empty mines and factories and tell us how Britain can stand on its own feet when Government after Government have destroyed Britain's industrial base and torn away every single advance the working man and woman has won for themselves and their children
It rook a radical Labour Government to rebuild Britain after the war (opposed by the right) and it took that right to put Britain back into the hands of speculators to milk dry fro profit - nothing to do with Europe of immigration
You might tell us how your Brave New World is going to deal with the infux of 3,325,000 returning Britons when they can no longer work in Europe
JIm Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 12:56 PM

Are we allowed to discuss this? Papers have been leaked ...

Not up to me, of course, what people can discuss. But to my taste, there is only a point if it is those papers we discuss. Simply repeating stuff that is on many other threads is not worthwhile. We have a very clear idea where just about everyone on the BS side of this forum falls on the stay/leave question, so lets just take that as understood and stixk to the papers...

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 01:07 PM

I seriously doubt that Brexit will be permitted. Either Parliament will make leaving impossible or the watered down version will effectively give us an affiliation similar to Norway or even Switzerland.
Dispute over Free travel restrictions will nail the door to our departure firmly shut.

Who agrees/diaagrees?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 01:13 PM

Have just seen the news headlines alluding to the as yet undisclosed proposals to cut the immigration of unskilled workers from Europe
If the EU reciprocates, as it almost certainly will, it will turn the so far farcical negotiations into a huge game of draughts with workers as pieces
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 01:29 PM

the tory spin has been to suggest that these very moderate and probably unenforceable regulation changes will affect anything.

its a sop to the racist vote. pretending that this do sod- all announcement will make any difference at all. style over substance.

there must be another election in the offing.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 07:30 PM

The Tories are imprisoned by their own right-wingers and by UKIP. Don't doubt that any softening of the Tory line on immigration will fuel a UKIP resurgence. Labour can't say much either, because their natural supporters include millions who resent being "swamped by foreigners taking our jobs and driving wages down." The whole thing is a reet bugger. Basically, truth is the main victim.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 17 - 09:50 PM

well whatever the truth of this situation, its certainly not a simple truth.
there are truly unpleasant people on both sides of the argument.
actually both sides is a misnomer.
the issue has a multiplicity of facets. you need to be either very stupid or very dishonest to think you know the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 04:14 AM

"there are truly unpleasant people on both sides of the argument."
Great argument for saying and doing nothing and leaving them to it Al
Maybe the Anarchists were right when the said "Don't vote, it only encourages them"
The simple truth is that politicians regard their job as a meal ticket and unless we try to change it, that will remain the case.
Pointing the finger at everybody really doesn't help
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 04:42 AM

Most sovereign countries have similar restrictions on immigration.
Not outrageous or even unusual.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 04:51 AM

Sadly you are right, Keith. Immigration restrictions are commonplace. We should be working on improving that situation so there is true international freedom of labour movement. We are now a global village and anyone should be able to work where they are most needed.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 04:56 AM

I think that more and more people are seeing what many of us knew from the outset, that brexit is a disaster in waiting. The party leaders are dragging their feet, pretending that they're somehow defending democracy (oh, and hanging on to those meal-tickets, Jim) by sticking to the pro-brexit line. I think that will change, at least among non-Tories, as we watch that arch-buffoon Davis continue to screw up and get laughed at by the EU big knobs, who are having a great time now that they realise that our leaving is going to destroy us but will leave them almost untouched. No skin off their noses if we don't "get a deal." The Tories can't change their position because of their backbenchers, May's paralysis and the spectre of a UKIP resurgence, but I think Labour can. We've already seen the call for retained membership of the single market and customs union during a transitional phase. I think we're going to see brexit fudged out of existence.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 05:07 AM

I think it's possible Brexit might not happen. It's obvious two years is not long enough to negotiate a withdrawal without serious damage to the economy. Business is very jittery about the consequences about the ending of free movement of people as it's about to decimate the workforce. Labour and the tories could have restricted immigration if they wanted to, they chose not to.

Also, this government's attitude to EU nationals living here is reprehensible. I have friends who are very concerned about the future and very aware of the hostility directed toward them by the nastier members of our society. These are people's lives.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 06:37 AM

"I think it's possible Brexit might not happen"
I sincerely hope it doesn't, for the sake of those who will be effected adversely (if they have not been already)
I remember being in a conference full of ballad enthusiasts from all over the world (including Britain) who universally condemn it.
I am no great fan of the EU, as it stands - it is no more than an assembly of capitalist states attempting to do the best (under the system) for their people - what happened to Greece underlined its dangers and weaknesses.
However, while the present system remains, it is, as Churchill once said about Capitalism, "the best we've got until something else comes along".
It isolationism being aimed at now has brought out the worst aspects of of the system we live under - racism being to the fore.
The same applies to Trump's America with its Klan marches and Mexican wall - methods of 'divide and conquor' all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 07:22 AM

Business jittery?

Don't think so in the 20 months since my shares have increased in value by 22.26%. UK Manufacturing at a three year high.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 07:55 AM

Teribus - as a bloke who stopped formally studying economics 35 years ago,
I'd suggest the level of jitters depends on the nature of the business...???

.. and make the most celebrating your shares value today... who on earth knows what they may be be worth in a post brexit future...?????

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 07:56 AM

Okay mighty one! What are you going to DO about Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 07:56 AM

U.K. growth is less than half that of the Eurozone. Inflation is far outstripping the ability of "business" to keep pace via pay increases. Your shares? Good for you!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 08:38 AM

"my shares have increased in value by 22.26%"
Dong-ding, I'm on the bus
Just been watching the BREXIT CIRCUS
The Government are intending to draw on laws brought in by Henry VIII to avoid having to discuss aspects of the withdrawal in Parliament
Jim Carrolll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 09:13 AM

Dave,
Immigration restrictions are commonplace. We should be working on improving that situation so there is true international freedom of labour movement.

Your opinion is not shared by any country I can think of.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 09:31 AM

How can a country have an opinion Keith? I am sure that there are plenty of individuals who share my views.

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 09:35 AM

Jean-Claude Juncker has voiced concern about the "stability and accountability" of David Davis and his political mandate to conduct Brexit talks, saying that Davis's "apparent lack of involvement" in talks "risked jeopardising the success of the negotiations". They're laughing at us, aren't they?

Business not jittery? So how come some bosses of the UK's biggest companies have refused to sign a letter put out by May asking them to give her public support for her approach to brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 10:32 AM

I wonder where the companies are that Teri-towelling holds shares in.

Brazil, China and India spring to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 10:36 AM

the problem with shares.....you lend your money to rich people - as i understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 11:13 AM

"you lend your money to rich people"
Sort of like the Banks, only with shares you get interest and the more you have the more you get
"There's nothing surer,
The rich get rich and the poor get poorer
In the meantime, in-between time
Ain't we got fun"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 11:17 AM

The problem with shares?

Hate to burst the bubbles of all the usual moaners but if any of you are retired and are receiving pensions from your former employment as opposed to a State Pension, it is the investment of your company or unions pension fund in shares that actually pays your pension. In it's day the NUM were one of the Stock exchanges biggest investors.

But I forgot Big Al, your rather poorly placed - you hate rich people don't you? (You've stated that in previous contributions) So your own prejudice would hold you back.

"Brazil, China and India spring to mind." - The workings of your mind Raggy? Never noticed any evidence of it ever working at all based on what you post.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 11:28 AM

Brazil, Russia, India and China have consistently given the best returns on shares over the past few years as you know if you studied the Stock markets.

I somehow doubt if your little Englander approach extends to not making a bob or three out of investment in these markets.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 11:30 AM

Unregulated "Freedom of movement within the EU" was a parasitic economic policy designed to use poorer countries from Eastern Europe to make Western developed nations more competitive. It had the added ingredient of keeping wage rates here low and saving money on real re-training programmes.
It was a huge disgusting con and anti Socialist in every way imaginable.
No wonder then that it is cheered by the faux socialists on this forum. Jim says to his credit that it is the best bad option, but he is wrong, the best option is to walk away and watch Europe beg for a deal. The remoaners are Europe's fifth column and should be treated as such.
Corbyn argued against the EU all his political life he now ditches his principles in favour of the chance of transient power.
My advice to Mr Corbyn is watch your back, the people who tried to knife openly are now standing immediately behind you.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 11:56 AM

Sigh - still trolling Ake
"you hate rich people don't you?"
Perhaps he lives in part of teh world that Mad Maggie cut adrift during her reign of terror
It's always those who have who confuse natural justice with class envy
Go look at the staedily growing gap between those who have and those who need
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 01:35 PM

Keith, on this side 'brexit matters' is a double entendre.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 02:36 PM

the actual rich in England are a very small number.
they really bugger up this country though.
i suppose, we'll get all that bollocks about how they pay the majority of the income tax.
but that's only because the sods have kept incomes so low.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: MikeL2
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 02:40 PM

Hi Steve

<" I think we're going to see brexit fudged out of existence. ">

I fear that you are right.

I voted to leave for what I think are good reasons but I don't believe that our political representatives don't seem capable to deliver.

Cheers
Mike

Ps On a lighter note - Got tickets for Man City v Liverpool on Saturday. Should be exciting to watch.

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 02:53 PM

I think our "political" representatives would love to "fudge" it, whatever that means, but they know for certain that if they do the electorate will not forgive them at the ballot box next time round.

I think the EU will attempt to string things out and the end result of that will be the "No deal" option in March 2019 - the UK will leave the EU, Customs Union and Single Market and the EU will have lost one of it's best customers inside the market and their second biggest net contributor.

The next round of talks to see how things progress after that will be driven by what Germany industry wants and Juncker and Bernier will be told to keep their mouths shut.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 02:57 PM

"the actual rich in England are a very small number."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-divided-society-social-mobility-commission-alan-milburn-a7811386.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 03:47 PM

I'll be watching the whole match on me iPhone, Mike. If you wear a very large pink carnation and wave a copy of The Guardian over your head every time a camera gets anywhere near you, I'll know it's you!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 03:54 PM

Don't delude yourself, Bill. The EU will do very nicely thank you without us, and they know that a shabby, watery compromise will make the other 27 very unhappy. In other words, we're stuffed, and, once out, we're going to find that that good old Empire of ours is no longer there for us to exploit. I have to go - more later.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 04:51 PM

The bottom line is, the EU wants our money. £11 billion a year will take some replacing. Germany already coughs up a lot. France won't want to increase it's contribution. Greece, Italy and Spain can't afford to pay more.

I know we get a part of the £11 billion back but there will be a lot of sticky EU fingers with nothing to grab.

They want our money. That is what the 'Divorce Bill' is all about. It's an attempt to get our money first so that money is out of the equation before they talk about a trade deal. They don't want us to be able to use our money as a bargaining tool.

If they stick to that we could well crash out without a deal in 2019. Without a deal we can do very well in the long term. Do you know how much food prices are inflated because of EU tariffs?

To be honest I can't put a figure on it myself but my understanding is that we will be a lot better off after leaving.

The Japanese car factories are already better off from the devaluation of the £. Their profits will probably remain viable trading on world trade rates.

The doom and gloom all comes from people who did not want us to leave. So far all doomy gloomy forecasts have been proven false. You'll still be able to take your foreign breaks. They'll still want our money. Chill.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 05:30 PM

Stan - I don't trust your over optimism.. and I'm sure your counterparts may be a tadge over pessimistic...

so where and how do we plot a sensible median line....?????????

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 05:30 PM

The EU wants the money they think we should be paying. If you have good reason to dispute the amount they're asking for, let's be having it, preferably without the little Englander hubris.

And it's perfectly right that they want a financial settlement resolved before discussing trade arrangements. Why would any rational negotiator want those two issues enmeshed? The trouble with people like you and Teribus is that you still seem to think that England rules the bloody waves. Well you have a very rude shock awaiting.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 05:58 PM

Well in our 40 years of membership we have contributed towards all sorts of Hardware Projects like actual buildings and real estate. Are we to walk away from these with nothing?

In most divorces she gets the CDs and he gets the player. The house is sold and the money split. He pays her money but she brings up the kids. The pot is divided. The EU seems to be suggesting that we leave with nothing and give away all the money.

I assume that you approve of this.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 06:10 PM

"Well in our 40 years of membership we have contributed towards all sorts of Hardware Projects like actual buildings and real estate. Are we to walk away from these with nothing?"

This remark betrays the fact that you have no understanding of the mutual benefits of our forty-year membership. It is not about tit-for-tat. It's about being part of a union that works to the mutual benefit of all the members. That means that the richer members contribute more, but, in return, they benefit more than they would have done had they been outside. Germany is the single biggest contributor to the EU, and, is also, by a country mile, the most prosperous member. Go bloody figure.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 06:18 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: It is not about tit-for-tat

But it does seem to be about tit for tat, doesn't it?

You're leaving so you get nothing.

Tit for tat.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 06:23 PM

I wouldn't mind some tit for tat... i've got plenty of tat cluttering up the house i want rid of...
but not enough tit...

I must say i do prefer european tit to British... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 06:25 PM

The chance would be a fine thing.

Is no one watching BBC 4 right now?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 07:21 PM

When I was 13 I'd stay up late for BBC2's European movies... 😜

that's probably when I first became an internationalist...

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 07:24 PM

I caught the end and will watch the whole thing on catch-up.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 03:33 AM

"that's probably when I first became an internationalist..."
When I first moved to Manchester one of the cinemas had just started an Ingmar Bergman season - I saw every one of them (sometimes two a day) - have been a manic depressive ever since!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 05:34 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Sep 17 - 05:30 PM

The EU wants the money they think we should be paying.
No, they appear to have picked a nice round figure out of thin air.
If you have good reason to dispute the amount they're asking for, let's be having it, preferably without the little Englander hubris.
If they won't tell the UK how this figure has been arrived at, how can we dispute it, either in total or line by line?

And it's perfectly right that they want a financial settlement resolved before discussing trade arrangements. Why would any rational negotiator want those two issues enmeshed?
Maybe we should agree the payment in order to get things moving, and then re-negotiate it later. But better yet, let's get on with things.
The EU may not want the two items enmeshed, but they need to take account of their own instructions.
According to European Council (Art. 50) guidelines for Brexit negotiations "2. Negotiations under Article 50 TEU will be conducted in transparency and as a single package. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately."

So, by their own rules, set out at the start of the process, we are not able to agree (and be bound by)their claim for an 'exit payment' at this point in the negotiations.

I do like your line Why would any rational negotiator want those two issues enmeshed? as I have made clear above that it is the EU that has enmeshed the two, and so, are being described by you as irrational!

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 05:40 AM

Mr Parsons. Well Done Sir!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 05:43 AM

"Steve Shaw wrote: It is not about tit-for-tat
But it does seem to be about tit for tat, doesn't it?

You're leaving so you get nothing."

What I meant is that being in the EU is not necessarily about getting a return pound for pound monetarily or in material goods. It's more about being in a bloc of nations that share similar ideals in terms of human rights, democracy and the rule of law and with whom we can freely trade and enjoy freedom of movement. Not saying that a lot hasn't gone pear-shaped, but that's the idea. And during our membership we have embraced almost all EU laws with very little dispute. In the amended words of Joni, many of us won't realise what we had 'til it's gone.

Had a letter from Calor Gas yesterday containing my renewed contract. If I want to leave, I have to agree to pay them £300-plus to remove the bulk tank. I don't like it, but If I ever do leave (unlikely as it happens) I have to stump up, don't I? After all, I did agree to it. No unseemly squabbling, as we're seeing Davis and his sorry ilk engaging in.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 06:07 AM

"Freedom of movement" was a parasitic economic policy.

What do you not understand about that? "To make us more competitive in the global economy!"......Mr A Blair (Labour)

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 06:11 AM

The social consequences were never even contemplated.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 06:38 AM

We are now a global village. The worlds resources are limited and should be used to their best advantage globally. This includes labour. Borders and boundaries were created by men in a time when we needed to defend our own resources. We should have grown up enough to realise that we now need to pool them. Sadly, judging from attitudes on here and elsewhere, that does not seem to have happened. I doubt it will in my lifetime and as long as people maintain their selfish parochial attitudes I have fears it ever will. :-(

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 07:10 AM

If I want to leave, I have to agree to pay them £300-plus to remove the bulk tank.

Perfectly reasonable.
What equivalent expense will the EU incur when we leave?

If we were a net beneficiary, would they be demanding to pay us money before negotiating trade?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 07:10 AM

""Freedom of movement" was a parasitic economic policy."

No it wasn't. One example: It enabled a seamless exchange of skills and expertise at the highest levels of scientific research and development and gave the UK a competitive edge when developing new technologies.

That's one huge advantage being pissed away.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 07:28 AM

"We are now a global village" All well and good until your village has something that my village wants.
Resource wars are only just beginning while opposing sides joust for position.
The only thing "grown up" about it is that the biggest bully aims to take all!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 08:05 AM

All well and good until your village has something that my village wants.

My village IS your village. You seem to have missed the point of the phrase "We are now a global village". Of course when the Phenglions from Betelgeuse turn up we may have a different set of problems...

Not sure what your point is about "the only grown up thing" is. I did say we should have grown up enough . Not that we have.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 08:16 AM

My point is the global village only exists as a utopian dream. You can see the reality each time you update the news.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 08:42 AM

I can only repeat what I said on 07 Sep 17 at 09:31 AM

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

And before anyone says anything about dreams vs reality remember that none of us are doing anything whatsoever to improve the situation by posting on here. Even as armchair warriors, posting on an obscure forum of interest only to a small minority, we are way down the food chain. We are neither informing anyone of anything new nor improving anyone's lot. At least we can be honest and say what we would like to see.

Pretty much like folk singers perfoming protest songs...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 09:14 AM

"Even as armchair warriors"

Speak for yourself. I am active in my local community socially, culturally and economically and attend public meetings, hustings, planning committee meetings and talk to local councillors, engage with the town council and frequently write to my MP.

So there.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 09:27 AM

Speak for yourself.

Sorry, Stu, but on here you are an armchair warrior. I never intimated that doing that precludes anyone from being a real warrior in real life. Socially or otherwise.

I am also active in a number of organisations for the betterment of my fellow man.

So there to you too :-P

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 09:53 AM

Community level is the only way to make a difference. National politics is too partisan and led by corporate and establishment interests and local politics also suffers from tribalism and local authorities are pretty much corrupt to the core.

Nope, the only way things happen is when folk get out and make them happen.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 10:12 AM

Lovely stuff in the Independent :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM

"I am also active in a number of organisations for the betterment of my fellow man."
unlike some here that like to belittle their fellow man!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 10:42 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 05:43 AM

Had a letter from Calor Gas yesterday containing my renewed contract. If I want to leave, I have to agree to pay them £300-plus to remove the bulk tank. I don't like it, but If I ever do leave (unlikely as it happens) I have to stump up, don't I? After all, I did agree to it. No unseemly squabbling, as we're seeing Davis and his sorry ilk engaging in.

Fair enough, if, as you state, you agreed to severance terms in your contract you have to live by that.
When UK joined the common market, no severance terms were mentioned. So there is no correlation between the two situations, except possibly the attempt by the larger partner to prevent the smaller partner from leaving by applying a severance charge.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 10:54 AM

"When UK joined the common market, no severance terms were mentioned."

The terms and conditions were updated.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: MikeL2
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 11:01 AM

Hi Steve

<" If you wear a very large pink carnation and wave a copy of The Guardian over your head every time a camera gets anywhere near you, I'll know it's you! ">

I will probably waving an empty pint pot to my mate to get them in.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 01:51 PM

I will probably waving an empty pint pot to my mate to get them in.

Not in the stands at City :-( They were pretty strict on that whan I went.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: MikeL2
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 02:49 PM

Hi Dave


makes sense really. Do you think they will allow to take cup (Cardboard) of coffee?

Gone are the days when you used to take booze on the terraces. Sales of Daily Mirror rocketed !!! lol

Regards mike

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 05:49 PM

I think that Nigel Parson's post:

Nigel Parsons - 08 Sep 17 - 05:34 AM

Is possibly the best post I have ever read on Mudcat. Beautifully succinct, it struck down a lamentably poor argument with the efficiency of a QC.

I particularly loved this bit of it:

"Maybe we should agree the payment in order to get things moving, and then re-negotiate it later. But better yet, let's get on with things.

The EU may not want the two items enmeshed, but they need to take account of their own instructions.

According to European Council (Art. 50) guidelines for Brexit negotiations "2. Negotiations under Article 50 TEU will be conducted in transparency and as a single package. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately.

So, by their own rules, set out at the start of the process, we are not able to agree (and be bound by)their claim for an 'exit payment' at this point in the negotiations.

I do like your line Why would any rational negotiator want those two issues enmeshed? as I have made clear above that it is the EU that has enmeshed the two, and so, are being described by you as irrational!

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 07:30 PM

Clear as mud, Bill. Try again in the morning after a couple of Anadins.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 02:14 AM

Clear as crystal to everybody else Shaw:

The EU Commission cannot even follow their own rules and guidelines, apart of course for on the rare occasions where it suits them. THAT has always been the major failing of the EU Project, but what would anyone expect from a lash-up as corrupt as the EU, a cosy club whose sole purpose from the outset was to keep France and Germany sweet. After the end of March 2019 with the UK out, I don't think German industry and the German people will be all that happy as it will be them that have to take up the slack and pay in even more to keep the gravy train on the rails.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 04:00 AM

"Clear as mud, Bill. Try again in the morning after a couple of Anadins."

I see no counter argument can be given so the normal response of insult occurs.
Strange the moderators do not appear to delete these sort of responses from certain people.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 04:29 AM

There is no counter argument because there is no argument in the first place. Tezzer just sychophantically repeated Nigel's post. Carry on arguing about the argument itself though by all means but don't complain when the thread gets closed.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 04:43 AM

Do any of you think UK should pay more than is reasonable?
Would you be happy for our negotiators to accept the first figure produced by EU?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:01 AM

I should like the evidence that the EU Commission rarely follows its own rules and guidelines. Only a close observer over a number of years could have come up with such a claim. So let's be having a dozen or two examples of how the rules and guidelines are flouted. Easy to say...

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:10 AM

Anyway, it's raining which means I can't cut the grass which means I can watch Man City v Liverpool at 12.30. I predict Blues 1 Reds 3. The way politics should always be! My cousin has a City season ticket but, luckily, he doesn't read Mudcat.

Ok, Iains, let's be having one of your sneery insults as a nice follow-up to your last post. I may even give you a recipe if you oblige. Hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:13 AM

Steve, the example has already been given twice.

Here it is again, "2. Negotiations under Article 50 TEU will be conducted in transparency and as a single package. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately."

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:22 AM

"Do any of you think UK should pay more than is reasonable?
Would you be happy for our negotiators to accept the first figure produced by EU?"

So what's a reasonable figure, Keith, and who's going to arrive at it?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:27 AM

One example, which is dubious in any case, is not evidence that the EU rarely follows it's own rules and guidelines. "Rarely" means that it follows them on very few out of many occasions. I'm afraid that Teribus's remark was throwaway.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:28 AM

The apostrophe goblin strike's again...

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:35 AM

So what's a reasonable figure, Keith, and who's going to arrive at it?

It will have to be arrived at by negotiation, with EU justifying every item.
You seem to be objecting to UK questioning the figure demanded.
Are you?
Do you advocate we accept the first amount they demand without itemisation?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:40 AM

Steve,
One example, which is dubious in any case,

It is not dubious and is easily verified, e.g.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-agreed-brexit-negotiating-stance-133719883.html

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 06:19 AM

I have neither indicated that I think we shouldn't negotiate nor have I said that we should accept the first figure. Stop being a complete trolling arse. And one more time. I don't give a fig for your ONE example. "Rarely follows its own rules and guidelines" means that "ON THE MANY OCCASIONS THAT THE EU SHOULD HAVE FOLLOWED ITS OWN RULES AND GUIDELINES, IT FAILED TO DO SO IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF CASES." Now I am asking for a sufficient number of examples of those occasions, which must be set against the occasions when it DID follow the rules and guidelines, in order to substantiate what was an easy europhobic remark to make but which is very difficult to back up. If you can't debate honestly, just clear off.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 06:28 AM

I am debating honestly.

You said,
"The EU wants the money they think we should be paying. If you have good reason to dispute the amount they're asking for, let's be having it, preferably without the little Englander hubris.

And it's perfectly right that they want a financial settlement resolved before discussing trade arrangements."

It reads like we should pay what "The EU wants" and that you support them breaking their own rule by demanding the bill is agreed separately and first.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 07:10 AM

"It will have to be arrived at by negotiation, with EU justifying every item."

There are two sides in this negotiation, and it's incumbent on both of them to reach agreement, so BOTH sides have to reach compromise. By going into the negotiation with one or other saying their opposite has to justify everything, this could take forever and comes across as belligerence.

We are leaving them, not the other way around so the onus is on us to make sure we reach a compromise, not least for the good of the people of these islands. The alternative, a hard "fuck 'em all" brexit would be the worst possible outcome, as it is there will be no winners in this lunacy, but at least our idiot Tory Brexit team should be acting like statesmen and not petulant children. For all our sakes.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 08:24 AM

"The ability to do exactly as we like whenever we like will be severely curtailed."

So you want to take away from those beneath you the right to chose their career, and be told the type of work to prioritise the 'states' needs. This has the stench of Stalinism/Naziism doesn't it.

So is this going to start with redeploying those in cushy, well-paid jobs into the agricultural, personal care and sweat-shop sectors - there are plenty of skilled people from overseas who are qualified to employ into skilled, professional and management work.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 08:45 AM

Stu,
By going into the negotiation with one or other saying their opposite has to justify everything, this could take forever and comes across as belligerence.

Of course they have to justify the sum they are demanding.
Of course we should only pay what we consider we rightfully owe.

We are leaving them, not the other way around so the onus is on us to make sure we reach a compromise,

When you check out of an hotel, if you consider the bill excessive, you go through the itemised bill and check that you agree with what you are being charged for.

An itemised bill is expected.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 09:01 AM

Of course we must pay into the EU indefinitely to compensate half-billion people for the effect our pathetic little hissy fit will have on the structural development of EU member states that are economically lagging behind. If we do not continue to live up to our responsibilities, either remaining or leaving (= paying but not wanting any of the benefits). Of course there will be people here with a f*** everyone else attitude, but I do not want to be labeled as a nasty, isolationist piece of excrement.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 09:17 AM

"An itemised bill is expected."

Then brexit will take forever. Fine by me.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 09:40 AM

I am debating honestly.

You said,
"The EU wants the money they think we should be paying. If you have good reason to dispute the amount they're asking for, let's be having it, preferably without the little Englander hubris.

And it's perfectly right that they want a financial settlement resolved before discussing trade arrangements."

It reads like we should pay what "The EU wants" and that you support them breaking their own rule by demanding the bill is agreed separately and first.

It reads like no such thing. Once again you indulge in your slimy, disreputable trick of deliberately misinterpreting your opponents' posts in order to make a vacuous case against them. My words are clear. Take them or leave them but don't come on this forum with your silly, disreputable mischief.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 09:52 AM

And just get a load of this piece of little-Englander drivel:

"Of course they have to justify the sum they are demanding.
Of course we should only pay what we consider we rightfully owe."

So WE don't have to justify anything. THEY have to do the justifying. WE should tell them what's fair for us to pay. WE know what we "rightfully owe" and THEY don't get a penny more. End of.

Tell you what, Keith. Why don't you add on to your little analysis "And who won the bloody war anyway?"

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 09:54 AM

There's a live feed on FB at the moment from the anti-BrexShit demo in London. A great many of the 'comments' rolling up on it are from Pro-BrexShitters, and a considerable number of those proclaim that they 'voted for democracy', and that anyone who disagrees with them is a 'traitor' who should be forced to leave the UK,

Oh, the delicious irony! Sadly, those thick dipshits don't even get it.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 10:02 AM

By the way, the EU is NOT breaching its stated negotiating guidelines in the way you allege. From the Guardian:

[stated EU policy:] "Negotiations under article 50 will be conducted as a single package. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately."

Superficially, this sounds promising. Downing Street wants everything on the table at once, so it can use trade and security as leverage. But the EU is actually only making the point that this principle applies to article 50 talks, ie the terms of exit, not what follows after.

Try again. And do try to apply a dose of honesty this time.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 10:35 AM

"Walk away Renee".....The EU needs us more than we need them.

If that was not the case, they would not be trying so hard to stop us leaving! The walls of the monolith are crumbling and the departure of the UK will result in collapse.
Make Britain Great again!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 10:48 AM

You have that arse about face. They don't need us and they know it. In any case, do you suppose for one minute that, once we're gone, you'll never see another VW, Audi or Beamer on our roads ever again? They are being tough on the terms of our leaving not because they're desperate for us to stay (we've been a pain in the arse ever since Maggie, after all) but because they need to make it clear to all members that leaving has dire consequences and that you can't expect favours. That's not blackmail. That's real life.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 11:47 AM

Cases Shaw? what ones would you like to discuss?

Importation of British Lamb to the EU?

Importation of British Beef to the EU?

EU Fishing Quotas?

The British rebate discussions and agreements made that the EU never honoured?

The various supposedly hard and fast national debt to income ratios that were just swept under the carpet when it proved convenient?

Please, please, please DO take me on, on this Shaw because I will massacre you on the subject.

But let us take this as the starting point:

1: "The EU wants the money they think we should be paying." - Steve Shaw

No, they appear to have picked a nice round figure out of thin air. - Nigel Parsons.

So tell us Shaw how did the EU arrive at their figure? Fact is you can't, but more importantly, neither can they.

2: "If you have good reason to dispute the amount they're asking for, let's be having it, preferably without the little Englander hubris." - Steve Shaw

If they won't tell the UK how this figure has been arrived at, how can we dispute it, either in total or line by line? - Nigel Parsons

I know that you have never worked in any sort of commercial, or contractual, environment Shaw but if you present a bill to anyone you must be able to justify your entire bill item by item if requested to do so by the party you expect to pay it. If you cannot then you have to compromise and come to a mutually agreed figure. This I know presents the EU Commission with a great problem, after all they have not been able to present ONE set of audited accounts in the entire history of the EU.

3: "And it's perfectly right that they want a financial settlement resolved before discussing trade arrangements. Why would any rational negotiator want those two issues enmeshed?" - Steve Shaw

Maybe we should agree the payment in order to get things moving, and then re-negotiate it later. But better yet, let's get on with things.
The EU may not want the two items enmeshed, but they need to take account of their own instructions. - Nigel Parsons

Well then Shaw here are the EU's guidelines:

"According to European Council (Art. 50) guidelines for Brexit negotiations ". Negotiations under Article 50 TEU will be conducted in transparency and AS A SINGLE PACKAGE. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately."

So according to their guidelines it most certainly is NOT "perfectly right" to separate the issues IS IT SHAW?? The EU in adopting the stance they have are clearly disobeying their own guidelines. I take it Shaw that you do know what a SINGLE PACKAGE means don't you? The EU Commission clearly don't.

I do like your line Why would any rational negotiator want those two issues enmeshed? as I have made clear above that it is the EU that has enmeshed the two, and so, are being described by you as irrational! - Nigel Parsons

If ever there was a "Game, Set & Match" on this forum Nigel Parsons destruction of your post (Steve Shaw - 07 Sep 17 - 05:30 PM) was it.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 11:57 AM

SPB-Cooperator - 09 Sep 17 - 09:01 AM

"Of course we must pay into the EU indefinitely to compensate half-billion people for the effect our pathetic little hissy fit will have on the structural development of EU member states that are economically lagging behind."

That is a joke right?

The structural development of the EU, once we leave has got S.F.A. to do with us. Just as in exactly the same way the structural development of the EU BEFORE WE JOINED IT had S.F.A. to do with us. It is an inherently corrupt organisation and we have been doing our best to promote reform from within for over 43 years and we have got nowhere - time to draw stumps and let them get on with it - perhaps us leaving will actually stir them into action that they should have taken decades ago. One thing is for certain if they carry on as they are doing now the whole enterprise will collapse.

By the way SPB-Cooperator there is not a single person in the EU today that says it does not need to be reformed.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 12:40 PM

You have given us an unsupported list of supposed cases where the EU has allegedly breached its own rules and guidelines but you have failed to provide any details. The only one that you and Keith have supposedly backed up is one that you have completely misinterpreted. In fact, you've just churned it out again despite the fact that I've already cleared it up for you. I reckon I'd know which house was yours as I passed by as it would be the one with steam coming out of the roof and bullshit oozing from under the doors. Why don't you just calm down (dear) and think before you explode forth here? It's very unimpressive.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 01:34 PM

Steve,
So WE don't have to justify anything. THEY have to do the justifying.

Obviously yes.
They are making a charge on us. Of course they should say what they are charging us for.

If we think a charge unjustified, of course we must challenge it.

When you check out of a hotel, do you keep making offers until they accept one, or do you wait for the bill and then check it?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 02:15 PM

"You have given us an unsupported list of supposed cases where the EU has allegedly breached its own rules and guidelines but you have failed to provide any details."

how's about supplying some audited accounts as a starter for 10, or is that a bit of a problem to understand?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 04:16 PM

We are a net contributor because we recognise that it is mutually beneficial to strengthen economies that are lagging behind so that we become a community of equals. Bearing in mind that each state is coming from different postions, and have their own pressures - East Europe decades of the economies controlled fro Moscow, Mediterranean country emerging form fascism. Noone pretends that this is easy to do.

Of course there are some who believe that UK should have the right to focus on its own economy at the expense of others, and these are the lowest of the low pathetic excuses for human existance.The sooner this country has its holier than thou arrogance wiped of its face, the better. These are often the same people who resent paying taxes as they earn enough not to need anything from the state.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 04:22 PM

SPB-Cooperator wrote: Of course there are some who believe that UK should have the right to focus on its own economy at the expense of others, and these are the lowest of the low pathetic excuses for human existance.The sooner this country has its holier than thou arrogance wiped of its face, the better.

Wow. I suppose that this might be humour.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 04:43 PM

You should be asking Teribus and/or Keith, Iains, not me. Sorry mate. They are the can't-back-up-what-they-say merchants.

Keith, your silly, tedious hotel metaphor doesn't hold water, so do us a favour and give it up, will you. When I book into a hotel it's a mutually-beneficial, time-limited arrangement with all parameters amically agreed in advance. I book to stay for a specified period of time, after which I check out in an orderly and timely manner. I do not suddenly jump ship half way through my stay, leaving the hotel in the lurch, expecting them to handle all the losses they incur by my suddenly vacating my room. I should not expect to be able to leave paying nothing towards the previously-agreed part of my stay that I've welched on. Yes I know that there is no agreed time factor in the agreement regarding our EU membership. But, by suddenly deciding to leave, we are dumping on them. Not as much as we seem to think. But they are well within their rights to charge us a hefty fee for leaving. And we need to be humble and we ought to hear what they say and be extremely polite about any efforts to reduce the sum. Any other attitude to the situation would be us thinking Queen/Empire/who won the bloody war anyway/we're the dog's dangly bits and who are these Johnny Foreigners demanding money off of us. Not only that, the attitude would result in an adverse outcome for us. Davis and his motley bunch of hubris-laden little Englanders have got a lot to learn. At the moment they are being laughed at and pissed on, deservedly. Be honest and drop the Colonel Blimp shite. Once we leave, which I hope we never will, we'll soon find out what small fry we really are in this big wide world of ours. Actually, it may do us good. But I'd rather be where we are. I like the hotel, in spite of the ants in the bedroom and the skidmarks on the towels. It's warm and cosy and the view is to die for.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 04:55 PM

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: SPB-Cooperator - PM
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 04:16 PM
Of course there are some who believe that UK should have the right to focus on its own economy at the expense of others, and these are the lowest of the low pathetic excuses for human existance.The sooner this country has its holier than thou arrogance wiped of its face, the better. These are often the same people who resent paying taxes as they earn enough not to need anything from the state.

Of course, there's always the opportunity to base arguments on facts (annoying as that may be)
As far as charitable giving is concerned, the UK comes out top in Europe. According to The CAF world giving index 2016
Not bad for a country of heartless self-serving bastards, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:07 PM

No I'd say that was a pretty standard remainer view.

fuelled by hatred of the excesses of the empire, and guilt for it.

a generation who grew up in a country with virtually no industry or understanding of it cultural importance in our society.

the endless jibes of being a little Englander ......based on the lack of understanding of the history of our country - because it is no longer taught in any depth.

basically we've been tied to a gang of countries who look round and say ...nothing to with me guv when shit happens. perhaps because of our imperial past - we know that's not always an option.   our interventions have not always been well conceived - but at least they were performed by people who had to face the music at the ballot box.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:10 PM

"Of course there are some who believe that UK should have the right to focus on its own economy at the expense of others"   :0)

Isn't that exactly what has been happening under the auspices of the EU's "freedom of movement" policy? Rich countries exploiting poorer ones as part of an economic policy which disregards social consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:38 PM

Just seen a comment on FB by a BrexShit supporter claiming that long waits for appointments to see your doctor are the result of our membership of the EU.

To think that we're being driven by these shit-for-brains twats towards the cliff-edge and on to disaster. God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:50 PM

There is a world of difference between levelling the playing field and charity, especially where our history has contributed to the inequality.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 03:30 AM

A toon for the Remoaners!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_pUgkECn9s

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 03:47 AM

well john, i've heard shit for brains remainers say that they wouldn't be allowed to go foreign holidays after brexit.

if all you listen to are the shit for brains people - well its up to you to choose your company. god keep you in that mind, as richard 111's henchman said before delivering the blow to poor old duke of something or other.

brexit is clearly in trouble. no political party believes in it. its being delivered by people who don't understand it.

i lived on a sump estate for over thirty years. my disabled wife was terrorised whilst i was out working by feral youths. in living memory those kids would have been at work in apprenticeships, learning how to conduct themselves as men, by the models of manhood and dignity that working for a living confers on most men.

the jobs started disappearing abroad almost as soon as we joined the common market. that's why ordinary people hate the EU.
it took away our culture, and replaced it with examples of 'loadsamoney' spivs. the only people who seemed to well post '74.

its the people who hate the EU - not the politicians. THey don't see it. THeir snouts are in the trough. You can sneer at the Brexshitters, I've watched your posts for months with their words of hatred and contempt for Brexshitters.

Your inability to understand ordinary people and the way and the reasons they voted does you no credit.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 03:52 AM

could the Tories want to deliberately lose the election?to leave a decision "Brexit",[ which appears to be an political gamble whose possible consequences do not appear to have been   thought through,and which the uk political establishment and civil service seem to be unprepared for,   left to some other party to sort out, an abdication of responsibilties.
before any decision was made the civil service and the political establishment should have been prepared for the consequences of a leave vote. the conservative leadership at the time were irresponsible because they took a political gamble whilst being unprepared for the political consequences, it would not surprise me at all if they elected rees mogg and lost and deliberately abdicated responsibilty, so that another party had to deal with their gamble and lack of foresight.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 03:56 AM

Steve, my "silly and tedious" metaphor stands.

When you check out of a hotel, you do not make offers until they accept one, you are presented with a bill then you check it?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 03:56 AM

I agree with Al, a LOT OFPEOPLE are disenchanted with the EU, a small majority.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 04:32 AM

"Your inability to understand ordinary people and the way and the reasons they voted does you no credit."

As does your inability to understand the 48% of ordinary people who voted to stay in the EU, any of whom were working class Labour voters who could see beyond the lies and deceit of the Brexiteers.

Brexit is simply the spilling over of tory infighting over Europe for the past 40 years that was foisted on the people by the same feckless toffs that are now fucking up the negotiations with their chaotic and belligerent approach to our friends and neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 04:34 AM

They are not behaving like friends and neighbours.
They seem determined to give us a bad deal even if it hurts them.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 04:38 AM

No, Al. We've been through this before, British industry was struggling before we joined the EU, don't tell me it wasn't - unlike you, I was actually working in Engineering in the '60s and '70s, first as an apprentice, and later in the admin and management of two companies, and we could all see what was coming because of complacency and failure to invest.

Thatcher, not the EU, decided to destroy the unions, and part of her tactics was to change the UK's economy from one based on manufacturing and production with (where the real strength of the unions lay), to a service-based economy, where unions were comparatively weak. She was very successful in that policy, and subsequent governments did little or nothing to reverse it.

I get very tired of hearing about how you were brought up on a...yadda yadda yadda. I'm also the son of working-class parents who had fuck-all, lived on council estates until I was thirty, left school at 16 and went into an apprenticeship. My experience, working for forty-nine years in both manufacturing and service industries, is that the EU brought much good into the lives of ordinary, working people and the businesses they worked for - employment protection legislation, minimum wage, compulsory minimum holiday rights, health and safety, human rights, simplified rules and standardised tax-regimes for the movement of goods, just to name a few. Do you really believe that we would have had the same if it had been left to UK governments? They are already talking about 'deregulating' the employment market, and we haven't even left the EU yet for god's sake! I'll grant that the EU hasn't always got everything right, but it's got a lot right.

You're doing the same thing that so many BrexShitters have done - linking home-grown problems to the EU. It's precisely what the small cadre of mega-wealthy families and individuals who will massively benefit financially from, and are driving, BrexShit want, and it's the propaganda that their mouthpieces, the Sun, the Daily Mail, the Express, and the Telegraph, have preached in order to convert sufficient people to get the 'Leave' vote carried.

I've been told on several occasions by BrexShitters that, by virtue of voting 'Remain', I'm a 'Traitor' who, at best, should be 'deported and forced to live in the EU' or, at worst, should be 'arrested, marched out, and shot'. This, from people who proudly proclaim that they 'voted to restore democracy' in our country. The irony would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

Nice people you're associating yourself with.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 04:53 AM

"They seem determined to give us a bad deal even if it hurts them."

Ah, the British sense of entitlement. Born of a misplaced sense of superiority to Johnny Foreigner. Poor loves.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 05:15 AM

Giving us "a good deal" will hurt the EU more, if by '"good deal" you mean giving good old Blighty indulgences and privileges that only members get, just because we're good old Blighty and think we're a bit special. If that happens there will be perfectly justifiable outrage among the 27 which would do a lot of damage. Our economic growth is the weakest of the G7 and less than half that of the Eurozone. By the time the moment of truth arrives in 2019 we'll be a basket case and our leaving may actually benefit the EU. We are not special, and the sooner we realise it and drop the hubris the better. "They" are not "determined to give us a bad deal." "They" simply don't see why we should be allowed sneaky little privileges that are outside of the rule book.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 07:06 AM

Steve Shaw - 09 Sep 17 - 04:43 PM

1: "Keith, your silly, tedious hotel metaphor doesn't hold water, so do us a favour and give it up, will you."

Well Shaw, Keith's "tedious metaphor" is a damned sight more relevant than your gas storage tank one for a start.

2: "When I book into a hotel it's a mutually-beneficial, time-limited arrangement with all parameters amically agreed in advance. I book to stay for a specified period of time, after which I check out in an orderly and timely manner. I do not suddenly jump ship half way through my stay, leaving the hotel in the lurch, expecting them to handle all the losses they incur by my suddenly vacating my room."

You book into your hotel and you indicate to them how long YOU THINK you will be staying - the only person to agree anything is YOU. YOU have accepted the hotel rates which are daily/nightly. They must accept the natural risks that your visit may be curtailed through no fault of anyone's and through circumstances completely out with your control. When you find yourself in the situation that you are forced to check-out early you pay for the accommodation and services that you have received - you do not pay for the remainder of the stay and the hotel cannot ask you to. The only thing they would be able to do would be if your, say, "two week" stay was at a preferential discounted rate and you only stayed three nights they would be perfectly entitled to charge you at their full fate for the three nights you stayed as you would not be entitled to the discounted rate for such a short stay.

3: "I should not expect to be able to leave paying nothing towards the previously-agreed part of my stay that I've welched on."

Their risk all part and parcel of the business they are in. Tell me Shaw would you then expect a full refund if the hotel immediately finds an occupant for the room that you have prematurely vacated?

There again you are probably basing your argument on "package holiday deals" - anyone taking advantage of these who does not take out insurance to protect themselves against the advent of having to fly home early is quite simply a mug.

4: "Yes I know that there is no agreed time factor in the agreement regarding our EU membership."

This in effect blows your argument above to bits. You join a club, which is more or less what the EU is, you are perfectly entitled to resign your membership at any time YOU deem fit. You automatically surrender your "joining fee" and that year's subscription - that is all.

5: "But, by suddenly deciding to leave, we are dumping on them. Not as much as we seem to think. But they are well within their rights to charge us a hefty fee for leaving. And we need to be humble and we ought to hear what they say and be extremely polite about any efforts to reduce the sum."

What was sudden? The referendum on Leaving or remaining has been on the cards since 2007. Now I make that nine years of discussions and opportunities for reform and change - all ignored by the EU.

By the way I thought you and the other remoaners on this forum took the view that in leaving the EU we are dumping on ourselves? They are only well within their rights to charge what they believe we actually owe and they must quantify and justify that figure, in that same vein we are entitled to our share of common assets that we have contributed towards and WE must quantify and justify that figure. In both cases the final outcome is one of consent of both parties - they must be mutually agreed - it most certainly IS NOT their right to dictate terms to us, as you seem to suggest.

6: "Any other attitude to the situation would be us thinking Queen/Empire/who won the bloody war anyway/we're the dog's dangly bits and who are these Johnny Foreigners demanding money off of us. Not only that, the attitude would result in an adverse outcome for us. Davis and his motley bunch of hubris-laden little Englanders have got a lot to learn. At the moment they are being laughed at and pissed on, deservedly. Be honest and drop the Colonel Blimp shite."

Good heavens Shaw!! Is that you introducing hubris-laden "Little-Englander" shite??

7: "Once we leave, which I hope we never will, we'll soon find out what small fry we really are in this big wide world of ours."

Article 50 has been triggered Shaw - Forget your hopes - WE ARE LEAVING THE EU.

The economy of the United Kingdom is the fifth-largest national economy in the world measured by nominal gross domestic product (GDP), ninth-largest measured by purchasing power parity (PPP), and nineteenth-largest measured by GDP per capita, comprising 3.7% of world GDP. It is the second-largest economy in the European Union by both metrics. Hardly small fry Shaw.

For someone who claims to be as widely travelled as yourself Shaw, I would have thought that by now you would have discovered what the bidet in the bathroom was for - enjoy your ants, skidmarks and view while ye may.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 08:25 AM

Stu,
Ah, the British sense of entitlement. Born of a misplaced sense of superiority to Johnny Foreigner. Poor loves.

No entitlement. Neither are the EU are entitled to demand money without justifying it.

No superiority. We want to remain friends and good neighbours if they will let us, trading freely if they will let us.

We just want to be politically independent like every other non-EU country in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 08:47 AM

We were politically independent before. When was the last time any of us voted for a representative in another country?

Brits love blame others for their own failings, and in this case they're blaming Europe. Soon we'll all be left to the devices of bunch of nasty tories who are exploiting the opportunity to grab more power for the government by bypassing parliament. Brexiteers have enabled this slight of hand which will eventually put power back where the tories want it: with the establishment.

Wait until the Brexiteers whine and whinge in years to come that their crap country is on it's uppers; rest assured they'll blame anyone but themselves for their own myopia and igornance.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 09:04 AM

The referendum was a vote to remain a part of, or leave the EU. The Majority said leave. If we have any sort of democracy then we will leave.
   Hurling insults and denigrating those that voted to leave changes nothing. It merely confirms that the socialist remoaners cannot accept that they are outnumbered, outvoted, and even more aggravating for them, totally irrelevant. They cannot even accept the results without squealing "unfair"
When will the remoaners start blaming the weather on Brexit? They appear to have the same knowledge of reality as they do of english grammar and spelling. One word sums them all up-PATHETIC!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 09:10 AM

"Hurling insults and denigrating those that voted to leave changes nothing"

Why? Because we refuse to get on board with your sad little project? I'll continue to work toward maintaining a way of life you are intent on taking from us. We're leaving for sure, but the way we're leaving isn't settled and I'll be damned if a bunch of nasty old white people who had it lucky when they were growing up are going to tell me what to believe. Ugh.


"remoaners"

Hyp-----o------crite.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: MikeL2
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 09:12 AM

Hi Steve

Did you watch the match ?<" I predict Blues 1 Reds 3. ">

Your prediction was slightly astray.!!!!

I was at the game and I wanted Liverpool to win against City.

I hope this was just a blip for Liverpool because on yesterday's performance the defence had more holes than a colander.

De Bruyne (sic) had the pitch to himself.

It was an unfortunate that they got red-carded - the foul looked viscious to me > But having seen it again on TV I think it was accidental, However kicking a man in the face is a sending-off in my book.

I got home in time to watch the United v Stoke game. It could have gone either way but a draw was a fair result. One unusual thing to happen in these days. Not even one Yellow card was awarded.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 09:38 AM

It was a 50-50 ball and Mané was going for the ball. His foot was high but it was a definite yellow. Never a red card. The Sky commentators all agreed that the referee was probably under orders to give reds for those offences where the clearly-injured player hits the ground like a stone, but that should never be the deciding factor, always simply the nature of the actual foul. The ref clearly didn't want to give the red but he felt under pressure. It was a total game-changer of a decision, ruining the match. Mané, Firmino and Salah were constant menaces in the first half, and that decision completely knocked the stuffing out of them. Even De Bruyne said the decision was wrong, as did all the Match Of The Day panel, all ex-strikers who all said they would have gone for the ball too. Rotten decisions are not only unfair to the players but also for the fans who saw a game that was turning into the spectacle they expected and paid to see completely ruined.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 10:07 AM

If you guys want to talk about football, why not open a new thread, or do so by PM? This thread was instigated to discuss Brexit and some deviation is expected, but not a subject COMPLETELY unconnected.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 10:11 AM

If yoyu want to discus this subject Ake, please do so rather than your insulting one or two liners
That is not discussing - it is simply trolling
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 10:34 AM

"...but not a subject COMPLETELY unconnected"

Of course it's connected. If they qualify all football teams want to stay in Europe...


*boom-tish*

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 10:54 AM

I was talking to Mike, akenaton. Mind your own business. And the members of this forum decide what goes into threads, not just you. Now just mogg off, why don't you.


Hey, "mogg off." I like it!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 10:59 AM

Well please yourselves, but abruptly changing the subject in a debate or discussion is usually a sign of defeat.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 11:02 AM

Perhaps the remoaners are talking about football because, once again, they are loosing the arguement about Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 11:11 AM

Jesus wept. Not another who thinks that these threads are to be won or lost. They aren't. This is not a debate. If you want to debate, go to a proper debating forum with proper rules and winners determined by an independent panel.

All you are doing in here is mass debating...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 11:53 AM

One can "lose the argument" in a discussion, especially the discussions which are entered into here.
Thread drift can and does happen, but to start wittering on about a subject with no connection to the thread is at least bad manners?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 12:04 PM

From: akenaton - PM
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 11:53 AM
To start wittering on about a subject with no connection to the thread is at least bad manners?

Ah! Bad Manners

More thread drift, and trying to turn this into a music thread?

Cheers ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 01:27 PM

"One can "lose the argument" in a discussion,"
Only when your reason for being here is to win competitions
you, keith and teribus are the only ones who persistently do so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 02:41 PM

"Perhaps the remoaners are talking about football because, once again, they are loosing the arguement about Brexit."

Aw, no need to be like that. They'll reintroduce birching the poor, dog fighting, badger baiting, poking the unemployed with sharp sticks, otter hunting, beating up brown and black people, queer-bashing and hanging poachers once we leave the EU and as they're sports you like, you can talk about them can't you?

There y'go. Soon it'll be just like the old days.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: MikeL2
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 02:44 PM

Hi Steve

I agree with much of what you said.
However " going for the ball" and missing it is usually ( not always ) given as a foul. I agree there was no intention to foul but he got it wrong and kicked the keeper in the face. The game was held up for nine minutes because of the goal keepers' condition. That is why the ref gave a red.

You are correct in that the incident spoiled what was becoming a really good game.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: MikeL2
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 02:50 PM

Hi

Akaeton.

I thought that thread drift is what the below the line thread all do.

read this one for instance.

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 03:31 PM

Discussing football on a thread about politics is not "drift".
What's wrong with the PM button, you seem to be an acquaintance of Steve's?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 05:06 PM

Sod off and mind your own business, akenaton.

But Mike, he sent him off straight away, not after eight minutes! Thing is, Edison was out of his area and couldn't use his hands, right? His only option was to use his head. It was a definite fifty-fifty, there was no malicious intent, Mané was watching the ball and, like any striker, he had the right to go for it. Yes his foot was high. So a yellow for that. Also, just think - had Mané been half a yard quicker, he would have got the ball, which was his one and only intention, Edison would have clattered into him and Edison would have been sent off for denying a clear goal-scoring opportunity. It was a sporting moment between two incredlibly committed and talented players, not an act of war. The ref bloody ruined the match without good reason. What was turning into a great match was wrecked by a moment of sheer refereeing stupidity. Not fair on the players, not fair on the supporters who pay good money to see the greatest players in an exciting, evenly-matched contest at the highest level.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 06:05 PM

Do any of the other members involved in this discussion think that this departure from the subject is anything other than a tactic to derail the thread?
We expect bad manner in discussion with Steve, but usually his sneers and insult are in some way connected to the discussion.
I know nothing of Mike, but he and Steve are obviously friends and this intervention is incongruous in the extreme, to presume that it just happened out of the blue is beyond belief. It is also extremely insulting to those wishing to conduct a serious exchange of views.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 06:18 PM

Such a polite little fellow. The brexit controversy is becoming a little too taxing for him. But the boring babbling about weeds has changed to football. I prefer croquet, Jaques of London, the oldest games manufacturers in the world, first wrote down the rules of croquet. The game is a race around a circuit of hoops. The Blue and Black balls play against the Red and Yellow balls. The first side to get both of their balls through the 12 hoops in order and hit the peg is the winner. Once a ball has completed the circuit and hit the peg (is pegged out) it is removed from the game. When the striker's ball has been through the last hoop it is known as a rover. It can then score a peg point by striking the peg (pegging out) and be removed from the game. It may also cause another's rover to be pegged out.
Jaques of London also invented ping pong and Happy Families. A fascinating game of skill and discernment.Croquet became highly popular as a social pastime in England during the 1860s. It was enthusiastically adopted and promoted by the Earl of Essex who held lavish croquet parties at Cassiobury House, his stately home in Watford, Hertfordshire, and the Earl even launched his own Cassiobury brand croquet set. By 1867, Jaques had printed 65,000 copies of his Laws and Regulations of the game. It quickly spread to other Anglophone countries, including Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, and the United States. No doubt one of the attractions was that the game could be played by both sexes; this also ensured a certain amount of adverse comment.
By the late 1870s, however, croquet had been eclipsed by another fashionable game, tennis, and many of the newly created croquet clubs, including the All England club at Wimbledon, converted some or all of their lawns into tennis courts. There was a revival in the 1890s, but from then onwards, croquet was always a minority sport, with national individual participation amounting to a few thousand players. The All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club still has a croquet lawn, but has not hosted any significant tournaments.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 07:29 PM

"Do any of the other members involved in this discussion think that this departure from the subject is anything other than a tactic to derail the thread?"
You don't take part in discussions Ake - you post hate mail - Muslims, homosexuals -Liberals - members of this forum
All targets for your vitriol
Can you actually point out where you have ever taken part in an exchange of ideas rather than a vomit of vitriolic abuse?
Your runnimg mate seems quite happy to discuss sport (if you can desctibe croquet as sport) so your own side appears to have abandoned you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 07:47 PM

Ake is about the only left of center poster below the line who actually does offer non party-line ideas. The fact that no one accepts then does not change the fact that he does have ideas and they are not standard left wing dogma. The rest of you just post invective, insults Labour manifesto positions.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 07:56 PM

If you honestly think that akenaton is "left of centre," then I fear you need to consider whether you ought to be making the voyage back to planet Earth. You've been away for too long. Are there fairies on your current planet? You do appear to be away with them!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 08:09 PM

I am heartily sick of being called a remoaner. I am not moaning I am exercising my democratic right to argue against and, if necessary campaign legally against an action that I believe will be profoundly damaging to the UK and anyone who calls me a traitor for exercising that right does not properly understand democracy.

After all, what have those who call us remoaners been doing for the last 40 years but moan on about the "corrupt" EU.

This is all I have to say on this. This thread has typified the nastiness that the referendum in 2016 has unleashed, particularly from the Leave side. After all it was a leaver who murdered an MP but the remainers here have been little better and do the remain cause no credit so for goodness sake, unless you have something constructive to say SHUT UP.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 08:24 PM

Oi, Tootler, it's dead grand to see you here, and I agree with every word you say (you knew I would!), even though you are a bit hard-hitting. My sister, a head teacher in Yorkshire, knew Jo Cox from childhood and is a good friend of Jo's mum. Stay with us and post your wisdom. We could do with a bit of that!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 10:18 PM

i don't like being called a brexshitter, any more than you like being called a remoaner.

i'm really sad to hear people whom i like , like backwoodsman using that sort of name calling. i think its not productive in any way.

the economists seem pretty evenly divided about brexit. the politicians are virtually all anti brexit. i can't recall unanimity about anything like this since the decision to invade Iraq and the decision to join the ERM.

we're allowed to disagree, and we're allowed to doubt the inevitable wisdom of our rulers.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 11:10 PM

The politicians are anti-Brexit because they would like to get on the EU gravy train. Had David Cameron managed to keep us in the EU he would have been in line for a top EU job. Commissionaire at least and maybe president. Why do you think Tony Blair is so anti-Brexit. He would also have been in line for a top job, ahead of D C. No chance of that, of course, if we leave. It's not just the enormous salaries, it's the pension benefits. My pension gets me £600 a month. The Kinnocks pension pot is said to be worth around £10 million. Paid mainly by the German and UK tax payers. Am I bitter?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:48 AM

The plot to leave the EU (I was going to say 'plan', but there is no 'plan', so 'plot' will have to do) is shit. Therefore it is BrexShit, and will remain so AFAIC. I care not one jot for the feelings of the small minority of madmen/madwomen whose votes have brought us to the brink of disaster, despite there being an overwhelming majority of the electorate who did not vote to leave in a seriously-flawed referendum that was only ever intended to be advisory - a 'finger in the air' to test how the wind was blowing. If those of us who wish to remain are 'Remoaners', I reserve the right to refer to those who support leaving as BrexShitters.

The Tory leadership is pro-BrexShit because that is the instruction they have been given by their mega-wealthy supporters and funders, whose only desire is to avoid the new EU anti-tax-avoidance/evasion regulations which come into effect in May 2019. Theresa May's husband makes a considerable amount of money from advising those very same people on their financial and tax affairs - well, who'da thunk it? No conflict of interest there then!

The BrexShit Brigade of Buffoons are still crowing about 'Taking Back Control', even as this corrupt Tory government is busy changing the rules so that they can make laws without Parliamentary scrutiny or approval. At the time of the referendum, some of us tried to persuade those feeble-minded enough to fall for the 'Take Back Control' bullshit that they would, in fact, be giving complete control to the Tories but, as usual, we were told we were 'traitors' who should 'get behind this country', and that we deserved to be 'arrested and shot' for preferring to remain in the EU. Well, eat shit you thickos, it's happening, right now, under your noses.

The other line squawked non-stop by the BrexShitters is the one about how they 'voted to bring back democracy' yet, whenever Remain supporters exercise their democratic right to debate and protest BrexShit, out comes all the BrexShitter's bollocks about 'traitors', 'arrested', and 'shot at dawn' again. Idiots, the lot of 'em.

Many BrexShitters (including some on here) seem to have this dream in their heads that, before the UK joined the Common Market (as it was called back then) we lived in a paradise, where everything was wonderful, everyone was fairly-treated and well-paid, there was no unemployment, there was no crime, no 'foreign Johnnies', and all was well in the Kingdom. Well I was brought up in the '50s and '60s, and guess what - it wasn't like that and, even if it had been, leaving the EU won't bring it back, so Dream On.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:55 AM

Exactly Stanron! They are only supported by so called socalists on this forum to save their crazy PC agenda, this agenda is in no way socialist, socialism is about a new economic system and a workable social system.

The battles of the 20th century only proved that progress cannot be made by strife and violence.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:24 AM

This from Backwardsman:

"this corrupt Tory government is busy changing the rules so that they can make laws without Parliamentary scrutiny or approval"

Hate to point this out to you Numbnuts but the only way for anything to be passed into Law and appear on the statute books in the UK is for it to go through both Houses of Parliament for "scrutiny" and "approval".

The 1950s & 1960s were considered to be one of the most affluent periods ever enjoyed by the population of the UK. The 1970s considered the worst.

By the way give my regards to the Musktwats.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:27 AM

Did I just hear someone fart?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:31 AM

Oh sorry, it was Terribulus indulging in his standard MO of name-calling and insults.
Sorry, old lad, it won't work.
Standaaaaaat........Ease!!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:54 AM

"Ake is about the only left of center poster"

I think you'll find Ake is on the opposite side of the political spectrum, and I guess this is a wind-up. He's about as left wing as his idols Farage, Johnson, Trump and Goebbels.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:57 AM

The plot to leave the EU (I was going to say 'plan', but there is no 'plan', so 'plot' will have to do) is shit. Therefore it is BrexShit, and will remain so AFAIC. I care not one jot for the feelings of the small minority of madmen/madwomen whose votes have brought us to the brink of disaster, despite there being an overwhelming majority of the electorate who did not vote to leave in a seriously-flawed referendum that was only ever intended to be advisory - a 'finger in the air' to test how the wind was blowing. If those of us who wish to remain are 'Remoaners', I reserve the right to refer to those who support leaving as BrexShitters.

As far as the referendum was concerned, you need to look at the results from those who actually voted.
To use the "majority who did not vote to leave" ignores the fact that (by the same logic) there was an even greater "majority who did not vote to remain".

The "finger in the air test" was seeing the results of elections where the Conservative party were concerned about the votes they were losing to UKIP.

David Cameron announced the referendum, first with a clear statement of the many reasons he believed we should stay part of the EU, but then:
"Three years ago I committed to the British people that I would renegotiate our position in the European Union and hold an in-out referendum.

"Now I am delivering on that commitment.

"You will decide.

"And whatever your decision, I will do my best to deliver it.

From Here

That seems fairly clear-cut. We were given the choice, and David Cameron (presumably speaking for his party) would do his best to deliver on that choice.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:09 AM

Not quite Backwards, I did take the trouble to correct one of probably many misconceived notions that you have regarding life in general and Parliamentary procedure in particular:

"the only way for anything to be passed into Law and appear on the statute books in the UK is for it to go through both Houses of Parliament for "scrutiny" and "approval".

Got it??

If so, good, I have done you service and advanced your knowledge and clearly shows that this, from you, is patently untrue and easily recognisable as being the complete and utter, undoubted ill-informed tripe that it is:

"this corrupt Tory government is busy changing the rules so that they can make laws without Parliamentary scrutiny or approval"

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:20 AM

That dirty fucker's farted again! For fuck's sake open the windows! If he does it again, chuck his bedding out of the billet and let it get soaked in the rain! That'll teach the cunt.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:29 AM

How's that countdown of yours goin' Backwards?

There you go Jom, Backwards, who has a posting style remarkably similar to that of Musktwat, has just given you an example of polite, civilised, discussion.

Care to tell us your version of how something becomes Law in the UK Backwardsman - I could do with a good laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:33 AM

Oh dear someone having a hissyfit. Perhaps a kind forum fairy will delete him! or are some allowed to post what others cannot?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:34 AM

My, we are all a tad scratchy this morning aren't we? Have a brew and calm down muckers!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:38 AM

Henry VIII...

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:44 AM

Thanks Shaw that was a good laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:59 AM

Simple answer. If leavers really believe in UK sovereignty, then let them pay for a referendum on every proposed SI on a departure from implementing EU laws in then UK to the letter. Let leavers pay for a referendum on whether or not to implement future EU laws and regulations where they would have had an impact in UK. Let the people decide, not excrement like May, Rudd, Johnson, Gove.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:08 AM

"After all it was a leaver who murdered an MP"
What a remarkably stupid, divisive statement. According to that font of socialist wisdom the gruniard, the man was an extreme rightwing terrorist. To include him with those that voted leave is the hall mark of a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:23 AM

"After all it was a leaver who murdered an MP"

Not only stupid but inaccurate.

Jo Cox MP was murdered on the 16th June 2016. He murderer, Thomas Mair, was arrested almost immediately after the murder on the same day. Mair was charged on the 18th June and appeared at the Old Baily on the 20th June.

The EU Referendum was held on the 23rd June, 2016. Being in custody Thomas Mair could not cast a vote, so he can hardly be described as a leaver unless of course you want all those who did not vote classed as "leavers".

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:26 AM

Mebbe. But there's a good chance that that particular hate crime, committed by a white supremacist, along with many others following the referendum, would not have happened had it not been for the divisive, xenophobic, racist leave campaign. As with hurricanes and global warming, individual crimes are not predictable nor able to be ascribed to brexit, but there can't be much doubt that months of spouting inflammatory racist nonsense about the country being taken over, swamped by foreigners coming here for a benefits lifestyle or taking our jobs, driving down wages, burdening our health service and filling our air with nasty foreign languages led to consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:37 AM

Tell me Shaw. Are fairy tales your forte?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:44 AM

You think that the considerable spike in hate crimes had nothing to do with the referendum campaign? My word. Anything else you'd care to deny?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:44 AM

So Hurricanes and global warming are now crimes according to Shaw, but perhaps cannot be blamed on brexit. What an imagination the boy has- he is totally batshit crazy of course!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 07:00 AM

How silly you are.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 07:12 AM

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu - PM
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 08:47 AM

We were politically independent before. When was the last time any of us voted for a representative in another country?

22 May 2014

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 07:15 AM

Nope, sorry to piss on your strawberries, Teribore, I'm not any of The Muskets (although I do know one of them in The Real World).

Anyway....Here you go...

And, to give us all a laugh at the very silly, Union-Flag-underpants BrexShitters...Arrff, arrff, arrff...!!

Now, I have a life, songs to write, tunes to learn, and a dog to walk, so I'll leave it here and come back to say "I told you so" in three or four years' time

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 07:32 AM

The delicious Isabel Hartman on 'Daily Politics' right now, talking about the Tory government's power-grab which I mentioned in my earlier post, and over which Teriboring is in complete denial.

Are you watching, Tez? You really do need to.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 07:41 AM

Odd how everyone agrees it's power grab except the grabbers.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 09:32 AM

That would be Isabel Hardman I presume, John. I'm quite a fan meself...😜

Interesting how Jezza is manipulating and shifting the brexit agenda. Whether these diehard and blinkered brexiteers like it or not, he has an audience. He was very sure-footed in the World At One interview.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 09:36 AM

Interesting how we heard so much about taking back control and the sovereignty of Parliament in tbe campaign, yet here we are with a minority Tory government wanting to grab sole control over thousands of laws away from parliamentary scrutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 09:37 AM

"Corbyn is whipping his MPs to vote against Brexit even though he privately supports it. Caroline Flint says MPs should rebel against the Labour whip. Thanks to Keir Starmer Labour officially want to stay in the single market during the transition, even though Corbynistas think the single market is a neoliberal tool of the bosses and want to leave it. Tom Watson says Labour could stay in the single market forever, yet John McDonnell says we have to leave it to respect the referendum result. Frontbenchers Jon Ashworth and Jenny Chapman say Watson is wrong, Heidi Alexander and Alison McGovern say he is right. Diane Abbott and Clive Lewis say Labour must support free movement, Corbyn and Starmer say free movement will end after Brexit. Barry Gardiner says staying in the customs union would be a "disaster", yet Starmer says we should remain in "a" customs union during the transition. Watson says we could stay in indefinitely. Tony Blair says we should just stay in the EU. Got that?"

Perhaps they should swap parliament for the Edinburgh fringe.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 09:59 AM

I call that honest and healthy and good for debate. At this point I suppose we don't need to talk about those right-wing Tory eurosceptics who made Cameron feel obliged to call a disastrous and undemocratic referendum, or Theresa May to call a completely unnecessary election which had the sole aim of shaking them off and which had nothing to do with the interests of this country. And nobody mention Ken Clarke, of course. And I hope you don't want the Tories to agree with the DUP, without whom they wouldn't be in power by now. Gosh, now there's another broad church then! Eurosceptic backwoodsmen (with apologies, John), the DUP, little Englanders, chaps who can't decide whether they are Tories or Ukippers, Moggites, Camorons, plotters, the Davis buffoon and good old Ken. Let me remind you that the vilification of Corbyn and Labour that appeared to be the one and only tactic of the Tories in the election rebounded very badly on them. I see you haven't learned that lesson yet. You should listen to Jezza's interview. You probably don't agree with a single word he says but just note the calm and measured delivery. That's how he did it and that's how he's going to do it even better next time. Be very afraid, Theresa!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:11 AM

No worries, Steve, although I don't agree with everything the EU does, I'm far from being a Eurosceptic!👍😄

Another good laugh here!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:21 AM

I enjoyed that!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:31 AM

Backwardsman - more final appearances than Frank Sinatra

"so I'll leave it here and come back to say "I told you so" in three or four years' time"

Go on then Arsefirst - Do it your way.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:33 AM

JAMES WHO???????????????????????

Let us see what reuters has to say:



https://order-order.com/2017/09/11/textbook-despitebrexit-from-reuters/

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:37 AM

It's Guido Fawkes, chaps and chapesses. Nice to know before you click.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:40 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 09:59 AM

! Eurosceptic backwoodsmen (with apologies, John), the DUP, little Englanders, chaps who can't decide whether they are Tories or Ukippers, Moggites, Camorons, plotters, the Davis buffoon and good old Ken. Let me remind you that the vilification of Corbyn and Labour that appeared to be the one and only tactic of the Tories in the election rebounded very badly on them.

Yes, explain that vilification of Corbyn didn't work, while vilifying your opponents by the use of terms like 'little Englanders','buffoon' and 'Camorons'.

Double standards anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:44 AM

I don't think Steve's use of those terms matches the gutter press campaign against Corbyn, Nigel.

Not so much double standards as trying to compare apples with hand grenades.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:49 AM

I was showing you that Labour hasn't got a monopoly on internal divisions. That was the point of my post. I should think I'm entitled to respond in that way if I disagree with a post that implies that Labour is the only party that needs to work on unity. This is a discussion forum, by the way, not an election campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 12:05 PM

Here you go - a bit more about the dirty work the minority Tory government are up to right now...

Attempted Whitewash of Tory Power-Grab Jiggery-Pokery

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 12:05 PM

Here you go - a bit more about the dirty work the minority Tory government are up to right now...

Attempted Whitewash of Tory Power-Grab Jiggery-Pokery

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 12:26 PM

Stupid argument. The composition of the committees reflects the membership of the house. The government of the day has the majority
until such time as it falls. Whether it be Tory, Labour, coalition, it matters not a jot.
"Attempted whitewash of Tory power Grab jiggery pokery" can be simplified. Try RUBBISH!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 12:37 PM

Backwardsman is just a bit of an "Alarmist" who hasn't a clue how Parliament works. It appears to be a bit of a failing of our coterie of middle-class, past it, trendy lefties - yabbering on about things they know nothing about.

He probably misses the Epworth Perma thread where he, Rookery4 and Musktwat spent all their time telling each other how good they were.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 01:41 PM

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:23 AM

"After all it was a leaver who murdered an MP"

Not only stupid but inaccurate...

OK you can argue that technically my statement about Thomas Mair being a leaver was inaccurate. Maybe Imshould have said "Leave supporter" but stupid? Justify that statement because I contend it's not.

As far as "Brexshitter" and similar terms are concerned I no longer use such terms. I normally refer to leave supporters either as "Brexiters" or "Leavers" and I ask Leave supporters to treat us with respect and use similar terms for Remain supporters.

We are not traitors. We believe that Brexit will profoundly damage the UK and we don't want that to happen and have a perfect right to argue against Brexit. The UK is a democracy and part of being a democracy is the right to disagree and to do so lawfully. The extreme Brexiters seem hell bent on shutting any debate down, possibly because they believe in their heart of hearts they have a very weak case so they invoke the word "democracy" to do the opposite and stifle democratic debate.

As to Cameron's "we'll implement the result". Although they didn't put it that way, the Supreme Court in the Miller case made it pretty clear he had no right to make that statement as it was up to parliament to decide what to do about the result as the referendum was advisory.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 01:55 PM

"Stupid argument. The composition of the committees reflects the membership of the house. The government of the day has the majority
until such time as it falls. Whether it be Tory, Labour, coalition, it matters not a jot.
"Attempted whitewash of Tory power Grab jiggery pokery" can be simplified. Try RUBBISH!"

Not rubbish, I'm afraid. It matters a big jot, because this is a minority government that has a confidence and supply deal with the DUP. A true reflection of this in committees would mean that no committee had an overall majority of Tories. It is not a coalition government and the Tories do not have a Commons majority in any constitutional sense whatsoever. The deal with the DUP is an informal arrangement that is neither legally nor constitutionally binding. Gina Miller this week has demonstrated that it was improper to offer the deal to the DUP without parliamentary approval. This attempted usurping of powers malarkey knows no bounds with this lot. You guys blathered on interminably during the campaign about "taking back control." So here we have a prime minister who failed to win a mandate improperly grabbing as much control as she can. Ironic really.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 01:57 PM

Tootler.Of 168 polls carried out since the EU referendum wording was decided last September(2015), fewer than a third (55 in all) predicted a leave vote.

The actual result on the night came in at 51.9% leave, 48.1% remain. Just 16 of 168 individual polls predicted a 52:48 split in favour of leave.

Polls did give a sense of the swing to leave in the first weeks of June, but edged back to favour remain in the final days before the vote. Just two of six polls released the day before the referendum – those carried out by TNS and Opinium – gave leave the edge.

Just goes to show that no politician should take things for granted.
Plan A was shambolic, plan B was not even contemplated. The present is the result.
It is a shame many others cannot post in your measured fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:00 PM

The government is a minority, not a majority - that's the reason it had to spend one-and-a-half billion pounds of taxpayers' money to bribe the DUP to enter into a Confidence and Supply Agreement. The C&SA is not the same thing as a Coalition, and does not make the DUP a part of the government.

The Tories are a minority government, and it is completely undemocratic of them to expect to hold a majority on Parliamentary committees (thereby enabling them to railroad through amendments to EU Laws, and other subsequent Law-making, which otherwise may be defeated at the committee stage).

Confidence & Supply v. Coalition

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:04 PM

The only good thing to come out of Brexit is the display of idiocy by the Tory Party which lost them their majority and undermined their credibility
It has also exposed how thin their take on democracy is their joining league with a Party with terrorist links and bunging then a billion of taxpayers money- you couldn't make it up
Long may they reign
Other than that it has been an utter disaster so far and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:14 PM

Iain's - there are plenty of Brexiteers who post very aggressively. Your friend Terriblyboring is a prime example - rudeness and name-calling from the outset, naysaying without providing any kind of evidence for his claims.

I have personally been told on numerous occasions, on other forums, that I'm a 'traitor' because I voted Remain, and that I should either be deported, or arrested and shot. I've also been frequently told that I have no right to oppose Brexit, and that I'm denied that right 'because we voted for democracy', so I must 'shut up and get behind my country or suffer the consequences'.

I have never made death threats against Brexit supporters, I've never told them to shut up or suffer the consequences.

Democracy involves discussion and constant review of issues and decisions made, and it provides for changes of heart, and changes to decisions, in the light of changing circumstances. Democracy encourages open discussion, it does not stifle it.

Think about that.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:37 PM

Nothing wrong with discussion, it can continue up to the wire. It is what democracy thrives on. It all goes pear-shaped when opposing sides turn their differing points of view into an insulting hate fest.
Perhaps some use this as a ploy to have threads closed when the ayes seem to have it. Possibly we should have the tune from Deliverance
softly playing in the background as we compose our responses, it may temper them.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:41 PM

"I have never made death threats against Brexit supporters,"
Bet you didn't ask non-British residents when they were going home on the day after the referendum either - or were part of the rapid rise in racist incidents following the result
This vote succeeded in what it achieved - it made scapegoats of immigrants for a government no longer to control the economy and serve the people it was elected to represent.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:34 PM

The insulting hate-fest is your stock-in-trade, Iains, as you've been reminded of many times. By far the worst offender by a country mile is your chief ally Teribus, whom I have never ONCE heard you criticise. It behoves you to keep quiet about insults, etc., at least until you have been free of the habit for a goodly while. It seems that you share the Teribus school of thought, which dictates that you think it's right and proper to insult, ridicule and abuse the names of people simply because you think you're right and they're wrong. It's even worse than that, actually. You KNOW you're right, so you think. I'm not exactly innocent myself (I'm trying harder), so I tend to avoid diversions of this kind, so please just cut the sanctimonious bullshit. It really doesn't suit you, literally. Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:41 PM

Jimmy and Shaw I could do a Father Christmas Ho Ho Ho after reading your respective posts. Just too funny for words. When do you start your comedy duo?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:29 PM

the other side is calling names - so i'm going to call names. i'm going to out-stupid the stupidest bastards in the world.

i'm not saying we will recreate jerusalem in england's green and pleasant land.

what i am saying is that our parents lived through periods of mass unemployment, and they taught most of us there was an intrinsic value in being someone that was useful enough to society to have gainful employment.

it wasn't going to be fulfilling, a dream come true - but it was going to feel better than being superfluous to society and living on what the rich allowed to trickle down.

membership of the commonmarket has entailed losing those jobs. we couldn't control it. the way we sustained fullish employment was subsidy. according to eu rules - that is unfair competition - despite the fact that all our eu friends are in deadly competition with us, and practice many forms of protectionism on the sly.

calling me names won't alter those facts. the out vote was a reaction from all those areas of our country where the commonmarket has caused mass unemployment with all its social problems.

now give us some tdea of how we would call self interested other countries to account - should we stay in the EU, which is what you and most uk politicians want......or you could just go back to name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:33 PM

"That dirty fucker's farted again! For fuck's sake open the windows! If he does it again, chuck his bedding out of the billet and let it get soaked in the rain! That'll teach the cunt." - Backwoodsman

And he's the TWAT complaining about - "rudeness and name-calling" - Priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:36 PM

Er, what "mass unemployment," Al? That is not what we're being told, is it? We certainly had mass unemployment under Maggie. Would you care to explain how that was linked to our EU membership? You're not making a lot of sense to me...

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:40 PM

Cast out the plank, Billyboy, cast out the plank...😂

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:53 PM

You started it, Terriblyboring:-

11 Sep 17 - 03:24 AM

"This from Backwardsman:"
Same post: "Hate to point this out to you Numbnuts"

You've got a very short memory. Or you're a cunt. I'd like to think it's the former, but I've got a strong feeling it's the latter. You've got that reputation.

When people give me shit, they get it back. Start behaving like a civilised human being, and you'll get the same in return. Your choice, I don't give a damn.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:55 PM

"This vote succeeded in what it achieved - it made scapegoats of immigrants for a government no longer to control the economy and serve the people it was elected to represent."
That I am afraid is a unique Jimmy interpretation of the referendum result. In reality it was a vote to indicate whether we should stay or leave the EU. Why people voted the way they did may or may not be demonstrated by subsequent polls. Recently the accuracy of all polls has been shown to be questionable,

To say " our parents lived through periods of mass unemployment" is perfectly true-as the economy crashes so do job opportunities. For the same reason employment in heavy industry and mining declined steadily post WW2 in the UK. Structural changes and globalism forced change.
Production will go to the location where the costs of production are lowest. Why mine coal in the UK when it can be shipped in at less cost? Why make steel when China can provide it for less cost?
It is an extremely naive view to think it is deliberate government policy to destroy any industry just to spite the unions. It is purely an economic decision, although when pip squeak union leaders think they can dictate to government I am sure the government of the day does not mind a slight investment to poke them in the eye and demonstrate who is boss. Government does not create the changed economic realities, all it can do is react to them. It is the type of reaction from government that requires censure.
A typical example is the aircraft industry through the fifties. A total clusterf*****k of companies, projects, wasted investments....
The list goes on. The industry should have been rationalised and shrunk long before events forced the changes. Market leaders in the late 40's

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 06:05 PM

You didn't give us a list.

Very Thatcherite of you. The trouble is that you are are crediting, in sentiment if not expressly, that Tory harpy with vision. The same vision that destroyed our industrial base, let loose the city spivs with virtually no regulation (that eventually led to the crash in 2008), put millions on tbe scrapheap for ideological reasons, destroyed whole communities and virtually had her making love to a murderous fascist. My word, what vision. And it's one that you share.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 06:16 PM

Do you really believe that racsim had no influence on the vote in the referendum? Do you really believe that those who voted to leave were not influence whatsoever on the leave campaigns promises? Do you really believe that the assurances by the leave campaign that there would be serious discussions about UK being part of EAA or EFTA were nothing but a pack of lies? Do you really believe that those who voted leave did so on that basis of reliquishing European democracy to the rights of havngfacism impoosed by the UK government.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 06:46 PM

Well Shaw you clearly demonstrate your grasp of how the real world operates is sadly lacking. Less time in the classroom and more time experiencing reality would have probably helped you. Sadly not a vision Shaw but economic reality.If you cannot compete with challengers overseas on cost, where are you going to sell all this excess steel, ships and whatever else heavy engineering used to provide for export. Do you think sticking a union jack on the item suddenly makes it sell? You live in a dreamworld of little pink socialists, where everyday is sunshine and roses.

SPB-Cooperator. was not "do you really believe" a former hit by the Spice Girls? Interesting change of lyrics. Is that some sort of political statement?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 08:00 PM

He's on late-night booze mode again, SPB. Worry not. An analyst would be able to write a whole thesis on his hysterical insecurities. Your post is spot on. Unfortunately, no leaver will admit that they voted leave on racist grounds now that they have had quite a long time to rationalise their "decision" to us.

Here's what's happened so far.

EU citizens are either leaving in droves or deciding not to come here at all. Why? Because they have heard about the hate crimes and the hostility towards "outsiders." If they come here they will endure severe job insecurity from now on, if they can get a job at all, not to speak of vilification from brainless xenophobes. They'd be mad to come here/stay here! But no worries! There are LOADS of trained-up skilled BRITS who can step into the breach! British jobs for British workers, old boy! The Empire strikes back!


NOT!!

The CBI are shitting themselves and the FTSE companies won't sign Theresa's letter. They know that they can't make it without those EU workers. Theresa can't make it without undemocratic Henry VIII laws, a dirty deal with a bunch of near-fascists and an unconstitutional attempt to stuff Commons committees with Tories. Meanwhile, the EU bigwigs, who have come to realise that, by the day of brexit, the UK will be an economic basket case (we're more than half way there already by every measure), they'll be a damn sight better off with us out, are laughing at the absolute buffoon who we've put in charge of brexit. Fifteen months on, less than eighteen to go, progress? Nil or backwards!

We're half-way down the skyscraper in freefall, but why look at the tarmac below when the little puffy clouds look so nice!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 08:28 PM

you don't get it. industries aren't like maggie thatcher said, a shopping basket and if theres threepence off you buy from someone else.

they are interdependant. when you lost the coal. you lost the steel.. you lost the mining equipment manufacturing - we were world leaders in that. you lost huge swathes of transport. huge reasons for running trains.

of course our competitors could sell better things cheaper - try and buy a cheap car now though. of course you always tell your competitor that his product is no good, and the thing to do is go out of business. and if you've got the newspapers on your side and a hatred of the unions, some daft bastards will believe you.

membership of the eu just means more stagnation and diminution of our industries. go for it if thats what you want for your kids and grandkids. of course there lots of new jobs Steve. fries with that?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 08:57 PM

Yeah, plenty of new jobs, Al. A million on zero hours. Five million self-employed, largely bogus (aka your employer no longer pays sick pay, holiday pay, maternity pay, your stamp...). Hundreds of thousands on fake apprenticeships on half the minimum wage. Loads more working for wankers like Mike Ashley who docks your pay if the bus was five minutes late and who has people to check on how many times you've been for a piss. Loads more on short hours. I know couples who are both in full-time work who can hardly afford to rent a modest two-bed house on an estate here in Cornwall, the poorest area of England. We didn't lose those industries, Al. They were deliberately thrown away by Thatcher so that she could establish her yuppie spiv economy with no-one keeping an eye on what the spivs were up to. And just look where that got us in 2008.

A really serious question or two, Al. If there are so many spiffin' new jobs, can you explain why our economic growth is less than half of that of the eurozone and the worst of the G7? Can you explain why the productivity of this country refuses to take off?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 01:44 AM

"When people give me shit, they get it back. Start behaving like a civilised human being, and you'll get the same in return."

Take a good long look a long way back I tried what you suggest above and with those on this forum it did not seem to make the slightest bit of difference, so I adopted the stance that you yourself outline in your first sentence above. As you go on to say - "I don't give a damn."

When people come out with complete and utter crap - such as bills being passed through Parliament without "scrutiny" or "approval" and expect others to swallow it I will challenge them and pull them up on their ill-informed and incorrect statements.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 01:49 AM

By the way Numbnuts this was your first post to this thread:

Backwoodsman - 09 Sep 17 - 09:54 AM

There's a live feed on FB at the moment from the anti-BrexShit demo in London. A great many of the 'comments' rolling up on it are from Pro-BrexShitters, and a considerable number of those proclaim that they 'voted for democracy', and that anyone who disagrees with them is a 'traitor' who should be forced to leave the UK,

Oh, the delicious irony! Sadly, those thick dipshits don't even get it.

So in this thread, in any exchange between me and thee chum it would appear that it was YOU who started the name calling. Mind you maybe the above IS YOU treating others with respect - wouldn't surprise me for one second.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:05 AM

SPB-Cooperator during the recent EU \referendum Campaign, as far as my vote went, the Leave side of it did not have to say a word. At any point from about 1982 onwards my vote would have been LEAVE - Don't think I am alone in that. The EU is a totally corrupt organisation who cannot even follow the rules and guidelines they themselves lay down.

If your mined coal is costing £250 per ton and you are relying on that to provide power to your industries because no-one else will buy it then everything you produce must absorb that cost which in turn means that your products are priced too high then your industries are going to go out of business irrespective of what Government is in power, especially if the country is part of a trading block (EU) that clearly states that government subsidies are illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:25 AM

2008 financial crisis Shaw has S.F.A. to do with a British Prime Minister who had been out of office for 17 years before it happened.

The person who caused the 2008 world financial crash was a President of the United States of America and his administration. The President's name was William Jefferson Clinton and he did the damage in 1998 when he told the two largest mortgage brokers in the US to ensure loans were arranged for people who should never have been lent a penny. He did this and those mortgage brokers complied on the inferred promise by Clinton and his administration that these loans would be guaranteed by the Federal Reserve Bank. Only problem was the Fed knew absolutely nothing about it. That sub-prime debt was sold all over the world based on that lie and when the bubble burst the world caught a cold. Very early on in the crisis GWB asked Congress for $731 million to cover the crisis and the request was refused - Obama and the Democrats wanted to be seen as riding in to the rescues, which they did the February after he took up office. Unfortunately it was far too late, confidence had been lost and the $840 million he had to spend could not stop the run - GWB of course should have been given the money when it could have done some good. So Shaw, nothing whatsoever to do with Thatcher, and in the years that our banks made enormous profits I didn't hear a squeak of protest or any objection from Labour who were in power.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:52 AM

I hate to (at least partially) agree with Teribus, but the whole financial crisis was a result of irresponsible lending by financial institutions on both side of the Atlantic. I think though it goes back further than Clinton. Neither GWB nor Obama should have been given the money to bail out the banks, and though I think Vince Cable is right on brexit, he was an early advocate of bailing out banks in the UK which should never have happened. The banks should have been allowed to go bust, and depositors compensated up to the FSA limit.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:26 AM

"Mind you maybe the above IS YOU treating others with respect - wouldn't surprise me for one second."

"Hate to burst the bubbles of all the usual moaners "
"Clear as crystal to everybody else Shaw: "
Cases Shaw? what ones would you like to discuss? "
"So tell us Shaw how"
"Well then Shaw "
"That is a joke right? "
"or is that a bit of a problem to understand? "
"A toon for the Remoaners! "
"is a damned sight more relevant than your gas "
"By the way I thought you and the other remoaners on this forum"
"For someone who claims to be as widely travelled as yourself Shaw, I would have thought that by now you would have discovered what the bidet in the bathroom was for - enjoy your ants, skidmarks and view while ye may. "
"When will the remoaners start blaming the weather on Brexit? They appear to have the same knowledge of reality as they do of english grammar and spelling. " "One word sums them all up-PATHETIC!!!!! "
"This from Backwardsman: "
"Hate to point this out to you Numbnuts"
"By the way give my regards to the Musktwats. "
Not quite Backwards, I did take the trouble to correct one of probably many misconceived notions "
"Got it?? "
"How's that countdown of yours goin' Backwards? "

There you go Jom, Backwards, who has a posting style remarkably similar to that of Musktwat, "
"Care to tell us your version of how something becomes Law in the UK " "Backwardsman - I could do with a good laugh. "
"Oh dear someone having a hissyfit. Perhaps a kind forum fairy will delete him! or are some allowed to post what others cannot? "
"Thanks Shaw that was a good laugh. "
"What a remarkably stupid, divisive statement. "
"Not only stupid but inaccurate. "
" What an imagination the boy has- he is totally batshit crazy of course! "
"Backwardsman - more final appearances than Frank Sinatra"
"Go on then Arsefirst - Do it your way. "
"Try RUBBISH! "
"Backwardsman"
"And he's the TWAT complaining about - "rudeness and name-calling" - Priceless."
"Such a polite little fellow. The brexit controversy is becoming a little too taxing for him. "
"Jimmy and Shaw I could do a Father Christmas Ho Ho Ho after reading your respective posts. Just too funny for words. When do you start your comedy duo?"
"That I am afraid is a unique Jimmy interpretation of the referendum result. "
"When people come out with complete and utter crap"
"By the way Numbnuts this was your first post to this thread: "
"Oh, the delicious irony! Sadly, those thick dipshits don't even get it. "

This is a list of ill-mannered and personally insulting postings from just two people on this single thread alone – there are hundreds of others on other threads, mainly closed down by such behaviour
Yet another interesting thread has just been closed as a direct result of the same behaviour of one of these people
There are a tiny number of other bad-tempered postings, invariably in direct response to insults by this pair.
If this behaviour is allowed to continue, this thread also will cease to exist, and so will this forum
Perhaps that's the purpose of peple who find themselves out of their depth and substitute bullying, sneering and personal insulting as a substitute for intelligent argument
I suggest that, if they are unable to control themselves, somebody in authority should take the situation in hand
We really cannot carry on decent, intelligent debates in the face of aggression such as this
The fact that there are only two main, persistent culprits should make it easy enough to deal with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:32 AM

I've just opened Dave the Gnome's "You're not welcome on this thread"
Maybe it should be a permathread 'romper-room' for those who find themselves incapable of of behaving respectfully and intelligently, and let the rest of us get on with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:02 AM

A dose of reality-nothing to do with Maggie.
The first from the Guardian, so it must be correct!

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/29/crisis-british-steel-tata-40-years-making

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/nostalgia/way-were-cotton-king-manchester-6085736

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2013/01/meeting-our-makers-britain%E2%80%99s-long-industrial-decline

Very easy to generate the links for any industry and check the statistics yourselves. There is no point in singling out Thatcher for blame, she became premier with an inherited situation. Guilt can be shared in all directions. The major problem with government is that it only recognised the severity of the problem with hindsight. Consequently solutions offered were too little, too late. Sticking plasters do nothing to aid a corpse.
DEREGULATION was the mantra of Reaganomics and was adopted indiscriminately.
de regulation
Some would argue it was the best thing since sliced bread, others that it created an uncontrollable economic nemesis. All depends where you are coming from.
To blame the underlying structural changes of British Industry on a sinle politician is patently absurd and naive in the extreme. Socialists need to learn basic economics and history.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:06 AM

The rot started when the Thatcher regime lifted almost all regulation from financial institutions. True, Labour did not restore it. But that was the seed in this country. Blaming Clinton for banking irresponsibility in this country is ludicrous. You love to preach to us about taking personal responsibility, remember?

"The EU is a totally corrupt organisation who cannot even follow the rules and guidelines they themselves lay down."

Utter nonsense. That's the second time within a week and I'm still waiting to hear from you and Keith about this plethora of examples of the EU not following its own rules, etc. So far, you've given us one which I've disproved. Get to work, Bill (just trying to keep him quiet for a few hours, you understand...)

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:31 AM

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-ticking-euro-bomb-how-the-euro-zone-ignored-its-own-rules-a-790333.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11207721/Why-do-France-and-Germany-keep-breaking-EU-rules.htm

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:34 AM

Decline of Manufacturing not just a British problem

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/economic-policy-papers/competition-and-the-decline-of-the-rust-belt

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 05:20 AM

"The rot started when the Thatcher regime lifted almost all regulation from financial institutions"

London, the capital city of the United Kingdom, is the world's leading financial centre for ... London generates approximately 22 per cent of the UK's GDP
London generates 30% of UK taxes

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 05:26 AM

Even Labour's PM Wilson saw a structural problem with British Industry in the early 60's.

white heat of technology speech

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:32 AM

Jom - Shaw's name is ..... well Shaw? What is wrong with using it?

Jom is the name you yourself once signed off on - during one of your interminable, incoherent rants and I rather liked it so it stuck.

In most of your "examples" Jom put them in context and you will discover they were written in response to comments made by others.

Now then Shaw? EU cannot abide by the rules it lays down - Go and take a look at the supposed rules for the ECB - they say what the bank can and cannot do - compare that to what the ECB is currently doing and has been doing for some time now under Mario Draghi on the orders of the EU Commission.

London is the largest and greatest financial hub in the world - it will continue to be so. WHY? Because it is independent of political interference unlike any bank in the Eurozone, if you doubt that ask the Greeks, the Cypriots, the Italians, the Spanish and the Irish. The world of international finance just simple will not trust the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:40 AM

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 08:28 PM
you don't get it. industries aren't like maggie thatcher said, a shopping basket and if theres threepence off you buy from someone else.
they are interdependant. when you lost the coal. you lost the steel.. you lost the mining equipment manufacturing - we were world leaders in that. you lost huge swathes of transport. huge reasons for running trains.

Yes, and rather than just blaming Maggie, look at the actual history.
Callaghan & Wilson closed more pits than Thatcher.
But they were the labour party, so presumably that's Ok.

Even when Maggie did close them, some had already had a year of non-production due to strikes (or maybe walk-outs). The strikes were also endorsed by the Labour Party.

Let's put the blame where it belongs.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:46 AM

Iains
"How the Euro Zone Ignored Its Own Rules" - was written in 2011 when Britain was a full member of the EU was a member and had ever4y chance to complain if it found that to be true - in fact, if it is, Britain was as guilty as any and is pert off that "ignoring"
To complain about it now is somewhat ingenuous
"Making its own rules" is a somewhat stupidly meaningless term - the EU is an organic organisation whose job it is to adapt to changing circumstances by "making its own rules" - whose job is it to do so if not the EU itself?
Comparing what happens in the EU is equally as meaningless - all that it means is that the entire system we live under is in the clarts, not just Britain, which as far as I am concerned is the point.
Britain cannot "stand on its own feet" without an industrial base
Our industrial base was destroyed long ago so, unless it is replaced, we have no feet to stand on.
It is immaterial who destroyed industry - it was killed off for profit for the investors, not for the benefit of the British people as a whole
We are now reliant on imports, largely from the labour of workers working in slave-like conditions, which, apart from the moral issue, which creates another massive problem for us in that those wishing to seek a better life turn to Britain as a haven from the hell we have helped create an are perpetuating with our trade.
Our demand for oil and our support for the most despotic regimes has led to a flood of refugees seeking safety from wars we have helped create.
This is not just about economics - it involves the well-being and future of the whole planet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:57 AM

"Jom - Shaw's name is ..... well Shaw? What is wrong with using it?"
I don'tt know if it is his real name, it could be a pseudonym - but his chosen name is "Steve Shaw" - "Saw is an attempt to talk down to him (if he is a him" - a deliberate ploy on your part to foulf the atmoshere and in doing so to gain some sort of an advantage
"Jom is the name you yourself once signed off on"
It was a typo and you have been tod that numerous times - it repleced your equally unimaginative "Christmas"
What I said abou "Shaw" goes equally for this an attempt fo establish some sort uf upper ground by talking down to people
Both were a minute part of a massive list of insults, not just on this thread but on dozens of others
Far from from being a response to others (aka "he hit me first sir", they have been part of your bullying behaviour from the beginning
Some time ago, Joe Offer, in his reasonable way, suggested that we stop behaving like name-calling schoolchildren
Most of us did, you you persist - maybe because you have little else to offer
I up to you to prove that is not the case by behaving like an adult
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:30 AM

Just got back, who closed the JRM thread...and why?

I told you to calm down Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:41 AM

There was a lot of interesting responses and more posts in a day than any other.......this thread is full of cursing and obscenities by Backwoodsman, but its still open.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:43 AM

Jim you need to be put in a case and displayed alongside T REX in a museum unless you can argue from the 21st century, not the timewarp of nonsensical argument you are trapped in. No doubt you would argue we need apprenticeships for fletchers and bowmen.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:49 AM

"I told you to calm down Jim."
Read what has gobe before Ake - you insulting rolling is as much a part of the state of this forum
I was sixty miles away from my computer when the Mogg thread was closed down - Teribus and Iians posted six times between them after my last posting
- they included three personal insults or attempts to 'talk down' , which I reckon was the reason the thread got coles down
It's about time you cleaned up your act too
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:56 AM

Steve Shaw is my one and only name and I'm a big hairy bloke, Jim. Woodcock here, aka Teribus, was the first to call me Shaw, and his little puppydog Iains came along and copied him like a sheep. Everybody in the world who knows me calls me Steve except for those two. Well, Mrs Steve has been known to be slightly less complimentary....

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:58 AM

""How the Euro Zone Ignored Its Own Rules" - was written in 2011"
and??????????????????????

Here is a view of reality: It has it's upsides and downsides.

https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/articles/west-economy-misbalanced-services-manufacturing.html

If you want to argue a service economy is not ideal I can understand your view.
If you want to argue our economy is too dependent on financial service and therefore potentially vulnerable I would agree with you.
Much of what you trot out is just a tired old mantra with no supporting statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:22 AM

"""How the Euro Zone Ignored Its Own Rules" - was written in 2011""
You aare putting it up as how it affects Britain after Brexit
Britsin was part of ignoring its own rules if the complaints are accurate - a culprit, not a victim
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:33 AM

Continue..
You are ignoring what I wrote about Britain being incapable of "stonding on its own feet" without an industrial base
Also, the implications, both morally and practically of Britain dealing with despots and importing goods being produced by slave labour
Inevitably, Brexit will make Britain even more dependent on such tainted goods
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:53 AM

"Britain being incapable of "standing on its own feet" without an industrial base"
and what does the emerald isle have as an industrial base- peat and cow s**t perhaps?
For the rest- in a global market change can only occur when all act in unison and I do not mean the union.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:58 AM

"and what does the emerald isle have as an industrial base- peat and cow s**t perhaps?"
No it does not thanks to Britain developing industry in the North East, giving the best land to settlers than hanging on to that bit after independence
Immaterial anyway - Ireland is remaining in the EU
"For the rest- in a global market change can only occur when all act in unison"
The isolationist nature of Brexit rules that one out then?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

Sould have added - under British Rule, all the major industry was centred in the North East - the bit that still remains under British rule
The Republic has never recovered by the massive loss of population by death and forced emigrations of the mid nineteenth century, the aftershocks of which are still very much a part of Irish life today
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

"For the rest- in a global market change can only occur when all act in unison"
The isolationist nature of Brexit rules that one out then?
Jim Carroll

In what strange example of a dictionary can you equate 'Global' with the UK membership of the EU?
Brexit allows us to deal on our own terms with the rest of the world (i.e. 'Globally'). This includes allowing us to deal with the EU.
Brexit is not an isolationist policy, it is a globalist policy. We do not wish our trade with other nations to be restricted by some of the silly rules originated within the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:09 AM

250

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:45 AM

"The Republic has never recovered by the massive loss of population by death and forced emigrations of the mid nineteenth century,"
Strange you trot the above out every opportunity yet never mention the highland clearances. Were they just a walk in the park?

" thanks to Britain developing industry in the North East, giving the best land to settlers than hanging on to that bit after independence"
Rubbish. The protestant majority wanted to remain part of the UK.
Should we root out the angles and saxons and vikings on the basis od their DNA and ship them out after x hundred years. This makes as much sense as you using the term "settlers" just to make a pathetic divisive argument. The development of industry in the north not the south was primarily due to geography Take away shipbuilding and linen and there ain't a lot left, and both have been in serious decline for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:55 AM

"In what strange example of a dictionary can you equate 'Global' with the UK membership of the EU?"
Iains raised the question, not me
Britain outside the E.U., because it is unable to "stand on its own feet", becomes dependent on being "Global"
Brexit is very much an isolationist policy - that is how it was sold - not unsimilar to Trump's "making America Great again"
Both are based on getting rid of foreigners - Trump is somewhat more forthright in blaming all America's ills on immigrants, the Brexit campaign was largely based on 'the urbanned menace' and the effects of that were seen immediately in the rise of racist incidents.
Even within the E.U., Britain's policy of importing goods produced under appalling conditions was immoral and detrimental to the British people as a whole by doing exactly what Ake and others have accused immigration of doing, undercutting British labour.
Can I make this "Irish" thing quite clear
I am a British citizen living in Ireland - I own no loyalty to or bear any responsibility for the actions of Irish politicians
My feeling is that, under the system we all live under, membership of Europe is better for both in the short term
If you want to propose a system that is to the advantage of the British (and Irish) people as a whole, you have me ear, and probably my support
As it stands, Brexit seems a return to the dark days of boom and slump, permanent high unemployment, accelerating differences between haves and have-nots and an economy run for the already over-privileged.
As I said earlier, the E.U. is an organisation of capitalist states - fine in the short term; in the long term, it has my support as the rope supports a hanging man - Greece confirmed that for me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 10:00 AM

"In what strange example of a dictionary can you equate 'Global' with the UK membership of the EU?"
Iains raised the question, not me

And I was questioning your response, which is where the claim that Brexit makes UK 'isolationist'.

I'll quote the whole post just so you can't say I'm quoting you out of context:
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:58 AM

(Iains) "and what does the emerald isle have as an industrial base- peat and cow s**t perhaps?"
(Jim)No it does not thanks to Britain developing industry in the North East, giving the best land to settlers than hanging on to that bit after independence
Immaterial anyway - Ireland is remaining in the EU
(Iains) "For the rest- in a global market change can only occur when all act in unison"
(Jim) The isolationist nature of Brexit rules that one out then?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 10:06 AM

"Rubbish. The protestant majority wanted to remain part of the UK."
The Protestant majoority came from 'Pnater' stock and immediately set about creating a 'Planter' based State which discriminated against one third of the population and in doing so, forfeited any right to describe itself as "democratic"
Britain became part of that non-democracy in its reaction to the attempts of the third to improve the balance and so became instrumental in bringing about the bloody 'Troubles' we all lived though.
Nobody, The Unionists, The Nationalists or the Brits came out with clean hands, but the ultimate blame lies with the nearly half-century of inequality and bigotry
Sorry - this is becoming a triologue
I suggest that, unless you have nothing new to add, we leave it there and give others a chance
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 10:06 AM

Is it a storm in a teacup?will not the poor still be poor and the rich, wealthy?I hope that the Labour party wins and thatthast poor people in society get protection from unsrupulous employers

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:01 PM

The Protestant majority may have wanted to remain in the UK in the 1920s, but the UK of today is a far lesser place. I think it would be worth checking what the majority of the population want now.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:40 PM

David Carter. A partial answer for you(towards the end)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:02 PM

"David Carter. A partial answer for you(towards the end) "
Your WiKi article is undated
The D.U.P are now a minority part - they still have the largest number of votes, but should their opponents combine they will be outnumbered - all three are opposed to Brexit and have no great aversion to a United Ireland.
The majority of the Republic would now vote for a United Ireland
Within the next couple of years there will no longer a Protestant majority in Ireland - they will be in the minority numerically.
Hopefully the Catholics in ascendance will not treat the Protestants the same way they have been treated since 1922, one wa of guaranteeing this will not happen will be to make the power sharing negotiations to work in everybody's favour.
Brexit has put this at risk - a hard border and direct rule from Westminster will guarantee return to the early 70s
I was announced today by the police that toe U.V.F, - the paramilitary group with links to the DUP (the Party Britain has just bunged a billion for their support for Brexit) is now heavily involved in the drugs trade -NOTHING NEW THERE, linking Britain not just to terrorrim but also to narcotics
Wake up and smell the coffee lads
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:17 PM

Here you are Jim. The bit(with dates) that you did not read.



"A 2011 survey by Northern Ireland Life and Times found that 52% of Northern Irish Catholic respondents favoured union with Great Britain over a united Ireland.[42][43] This is despite the fact that most Catholics who vote do so for political parties that are Nationalist.

According to a 2015 opinion poll, 70% expressed a long-term preference of the maintenance of Northern Ireland's membership of the United Kingdom (either directly ruled or with devolved government), while 14% express a preference for membership of a united Ireland.[44] This discrepancy can be explained by the overwhelming preference among Protestants to remain a part of the UK (93%), while Catholic preferences are spread across a number of solutions to the constitutional question including remaining a part of the UK (47%), a united Ireland (32%), Northern Ireland becoming an independent state (4%), and those who "don't know" (16%).[45]

Since the 2016 Brexit vote, support for reunification has increased, with 22% of respondents favourable towards reunification, up from 17% in 2013.[46] 43% of Catholics would now back reunification, up from 35% in 2013. According to this survey, support for a referendum stands at 53% of Catholics, while 72% of Protestant respondents were opposed to the idea."

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:35 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:46 AM

brilliant post! agree with every word

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:17 PM

The rot that started with Thatcher's release of financial institutions from scrutiny was enthusiastically maintained by New Labour and the recklessness of this policy was reflected across the Atlantic. All the signs were there but we were all doing oh so well (except for the poor, who found themselves falling further and further behind). The US housing market was the most unbelievably irresponsible place. Once that shivered we all caught flu. But we were doing very bad things here too. Banks not having the equity to support risky lending. You could borrow 125% of the value of the house you were buying, no deposit needed, few checks, borrowing six times your income. It wasn't Clinton doing that in the UK, Teribus. It was Northern Rock and all the rest of 'em. But we haven't learned. Trump is deregulating again, deregulation is in the Tories' blood and indebtedness is as bad here as it was before 2008. Whilst I would never dream of doing it, even on my modest income I could go out tomorrow and buy a hundred-grand sports car if I wanted to, no deposit, no problem. My "credit rating" is absolutely spotless. No-one's watching me!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:22 AM

you'd need more than a hundred grand.

the other thing about the Thatcher/ Blair period was the bit where bankruptcy became good business practice. you embark on a project . raise loans, live the high life - but the business is registered somewhere outside the jurisdiction of England. It became an intelligent way to exploit the the THatcherite liberalisation of credit. quite an acceptable way for business to be conducted.

the iceberg hit....you start another business. Larry Lamb and Tim Spall were in a tv play about it at the time.

I know to my cost because a record/publishing company who were doing my songs at the time did it to me and a lot of other people.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:48 AM

"The rot that started with Thatcher's release of financial institutions from scrutiny"
"the recklessness of this policy was reflected across the Atlantic."
You have that ass about face!
Try this!
" In the 1930s, the Glass-Steagall Act prohibited retail banks from using deposits to fund risky stock market purchases.

In the 1980s, banks sought deregulation to allow them to compete globally with more profitable financial firms. In 1999, they got their wish. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act repealed Glass-Steagall.

The banks promised to invest only in low-risk securities. These would diversify their portfolios and reduce the risk for their customers. Instead, traditional banks invested in risky derivatives to increase profit and shareholder value.

Foreign countries blame these lax U.S. banking regulations for the global financial crisis. In 2008, the G-20 asked the United States to increase regulation of hedge funds and other financial firms. The United States refused, saying deregulation was needed for companies to compete globally.

Two years later, the G-20 got several things it had asked for when Congress passed the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform Act. First, the Act required banks to hold more capital to cushion against large losses. Second, it included strategies to keep companies from becoming too big to fail. The biggest was insurance giant American International Group Inc. Third, it required derivatives to move onto exchanges for better monitoring."

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:56 AM

Iains
Two of those dates predate Brecit
What you choose to ignore is that in the speed of the shift of of opinion that is taking place
At the time of the Troubles 98.9% voted to remain
Since then the position has rocketed to where it is now
Sinn Fein has for the first time called for a referendum, confident that it can win.
The ruling party no longer has an overall majority and will not survive without the co-operation of the other parties.
Let's face it - the idea of a large section of a nation voting for whether it should be ruled by another is a bizarre and grotesque one anyway and always has been
Transfer the same logic to Britain and imagine the six Eastern counties having to vote or take up arms to decide whether is should still belong to Germany (had it once been part of the Hapsburg Empire)
All this is a bloody throwback to the time when a large section of the world was ruled by an Empire on which "the sun never set nor the blood ever dried" - a predatory system of world enslavement that was given the kiss of death when entire generations of young men gave their lives in its defence.
I have never been a nationalist of any sort - English or Irish, but I have come to realise the importance of a people being allowed to create their own future and make their own mistakes.
Ireland was ruled by a long-term attempt to deliberate and systematic destroy its culture, militarily, politically and socially -
The Irish renaissance in the 19th century proved that that failed miserabl soy, when it became necessary, Britain turned to annexation under the treat of war.
That has filled body bags ever since and will continue to do so until "The Irish Question" is finally laid to rest.
We've been over this a hundred times on this forum - I really think we should leave it there and give everybody else a chance
I really am tired of these arguments with Empire Loyalists who salute flag like pets who "roll over and die for the queen" at the commands of their masters
Thank you Al - nice to have a meeting point with someone I have no real argument with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:35 AM

You can buy an MX5 new for low twenties, Al. Mrs Steve has a beaten-up ten-year-old soft-top job. You can have it for three grand. It's a peach. Basic, noisy, occasional wet carpets but more fun than a barrelful of monkeys.

Demonstrating your fiscal knowledge in that unfocused way is not addressing points, Iains. It's just boring.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:37 AM

Jim. The last poll showed a slight majority to remain. How that pans out in the future is any one's guess. The issue of the existing border is another long running sore. It is in everyones interest to have a peaceful resolution whatever the final decision may be.

My previous post has a bit of a timing gap that requires explanation.
During Maggie's reign Big Bang occurred that turned the city inside out.
Difficult to summarize briefly but technology was introduced, dealing became way more efficient and outside banks came to play. Also the first major UK privatisations occurred involving record sums. Now whether you wish to argue it reflected the inevitable march of progress or it was a cunning Thatcherite plan you can argue for ever.
"Competition, innovation and globalisation were unleashed on London, breaking up the "cartel" and smashing into the "fortress of protectionism," as city grandee David Buik puts it.
In the months before the Big Bang, the average number of trades in London-listed shares was 20,000, amounting to around £700m in value.
This year, the average has been more than 45-times as many: 976,000 with an average of £5bn worth of equities changing hands every day.
The changes introduced during the Thatcher years are ongoing.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:42 AM

its getting increasingly opaque.

i don't see why anyone should get angry with anyone else for not agreeing with or understanding the reasons for a point of view on this subject.

its SO complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:56 AM

"Competition, innovation and globalisation were unleashed on London, breaking up the "cartel" and smashing into the "fortress of protectionism"

Fine talk from yer man. But another way of putting it is that the City was put into the hands of spivs who no-one was watching.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 05:34 AM

"The issue of the existing border is another long running sore. It is in everyones interest to have a peaceful resolution whatever the final decision may be."
I've saidd that a hundred times Iains - I've also pointed out that Brexit has put that in grave danger
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 06:27 AM

"In the months before the Big Bang, the average number of trades in London-listed shares was 20,000, amounting to around £700m in value.
This year, the average has been more than 45-times as many: 976,000 with an average of £5bn worth of equities changing hands every day.
The changes introduced during the Thatcher years are ongoing."
This is th truest word anybody has written
Unfortunately they fail to mention that all these advances have been made at the expense of working people (many of whom are not working).
Thatcher divided Britain sharply into haves and have-nots, cutting adrift whole swathes of Britain to live in poverty - two of her greatest cons were turning homes into "investments" and respectabalising greed.
Sure - investments have risen and the haves now have far more -go look at the gap and tell me that is not the case.
We have no industry and workers are treated as expendable - forced to take anything on offer or starve and in doing so destroying any stake that had in the country
Working people are now treated worse that the slaves in the southern states who may have been ill treated beaten and abused on a daily basis but at least they were recognised as valuable financial assets by their masters - now it's "there's plenty more where that came from - wherever they come from" that prevails.
The largest percentage export in Britain today is money, which benefits only those in finance
If a firm avoids paying billions in tax ther are regarded as 'successful' - if a worker fiddles a few quid out of his or her tax they are criminals.
You want to see a lifelike depiction of life in Britain today, go see 'I Daniel Blake' - if you don't go away angry, you are not human.
I really don't understand what king of people can accept what is happening today without comment
There y'ar lads - another "rant" for you
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:01 AM

All true, Jim. What Thatcher did was to make spiv culture permanently respectable. The financial institutions are behaving today exactly as they were doing up to 2008. There WILL BE another crash. It's just a matter of when. And the icing on the cake for us is the upcoming brexit catastrophe. Thank your lucky stars, baby boomers like me. Nobody's ever had it so good and never will again.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:03 AM

i don't think people are treated worse than slaves in the antebellum confederate states of the USA.

i agree with a lot of what you say - but really that's wrong on so many levels. And i think you know it is.

Many black Americans would find that dreadfully offensive, and i wouldn't blame them.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 08:15 AM

"Many black Americans would find that dreadfully offensive, and i wouldn't blame them."
Are you really suggesting that British workers are valued higher than someone who has been prchased as an investment - which is the point I was making Al?
Convince me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 08:42 AM

Working people are now treated worse that the slaves in the southern states who may have been ill treated beaten and abused on a daily basis but at least they were recognised as valuable financial assets by their masters - now it's "there's plenty more where that came from - wherever they come from" that prevails.

I can't agree that British working people are treated worse than slaves.
They may be valued less (which is what your comment goes on to suggest) but that is not the same as being "treated worse".
Who, in Britain gets beaten on a daily basis?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 09:33 AM

Sorry Nigel - that's what I meant to say - my mistake
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 09:48 AM

now it's "there's plenty more where that came from - wherever they come from" that prevails.
I can only assume that by your statement you imply that immigrant labour drives down wages by way of excess labour. The answer is not that simple.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:02 AM

"I can only assume that by your statement you imply that immigrant labour drives down wages by way of excess labour"
Assume nothing - I mean that employers are willing to use immigrant labour o drive down wages and always have done, the Irish famine being typical
It lies within theremit of the government to establish a minimum living wage, they don't, which leaves the field open for those inclined that way to blame immigrants
Government statements have actually stressed the contribution of immigrants, but have ignored the solution of a living wage
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:02 AM

"I can only assume that by your statement you imply that immigrant labour drives down wages by way of excess labour"
Assume nothing - I mean that employers are willing to use immigrant labour o drive down wages and always have done, the Irish famine being typical
It lies within theremit of the government to establish a minimum living wage, they don't, which leaves the field open for those inclined that way to blame immigrants
Government statements have actually stressed the contribution of immigrants, but have ignored the solution of a living wage
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:15 AM

The answer actually is very simple. The only people who can drive down wages are the people who pay the wages. There are not many unskilled/temporary/seasonal workers, especially if they have come to find work to support their families overseas, who have the choice to say to an employer, stuff your low wages, I won't work for you, go and find a Brit instead. Blaming EU workers for driving down wages is xenophobic and was a mainstay of the racist brexit campaign. Just try to remember that we are talking about large numbers of people who are not organised to fight back and who the Tories have made sure enjoy no employment security. The Tories refer to them as the flexible labour market. Us lefties refer to them as vulnerable human beings. And where they come from is immaterial.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:33 AM

The fault lies with the EU.   The economic policy of Free movement of Labour drives down wages, stops proper training programmes for UK citizens.

Of course the bosses will use cheap labour that is why Free Movement is an ECONOMIC policy! Of course immigrants will come here in their millions, the money they earn is worth three times as much in Poland or Romania!

Neither of these groups can be blamed for working the system, the fault lies with the EU dictatorship and the sooner we get out the better.....Deal or no deal.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:44 AM

its a bit like Monkey World - have you seen that programme. One day - all the troupe ganged on old Rodney who had been the leader of the troupe. They found old Rodney's mangled body and a new younger guy had become the troupe leader.

The late wonderful Jim Cronin ( founder of Monkeyworld) was explaining it. He said - There are no villains. There are no bad guys - its just what monkeys do.

You can't blame Lincolnshire farmers for not paying the minimum wage - they never have. Its just that now there are people who will work for even less. Irish people used to come over. Bob Geldof was in Boston at United Canners when he was a a young 'un. the wages were always shit. when i was a kid i used to pick daffodils and beans for two bob an hour.

there are no bad guys. its just what monkeys do. the trouble is that there is widespread ignorance about how people in different parts of the country live.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:16 AM

There is no "EU dictatorship." All the countries of the EU are democracies that must operate under the rule of law. This country has agreed to over 95% of thousands of EU laws and directives, disputing very few, and has played a major part in drawing them up. For an unwieldy organisation consisting of 28 countries containing half a billion people, the degree of harmony is amazing. There is no little man in a Brussels bunker telling us how long our courgettes should be. And I'm a very simple man, as you all know. So let me repeat. The person who pays the wages is the employer. Subject only to the law of the land, the employer is the man who decides what wages to pay. Yes the government of the country can have policies that make it harder for him to pay higher wages or employ more people. But this government has made it easy for employers to shirk responsibilities such as paying sick pay, maternity pay, holiday pay and national insurance. This government has made it easier to employ people then tell them there's no work today, tough luck, try again tomorrow and you won't be paid. This government has made it easier for employers to offload workers without reason and with little notice, without fear of redress. This government has emasculated trade unions, making it next to impossible for them to step in to protect workers who are under any kind of threat. It's called "the flexible labour market" and its aims are to keep employees firmly in their places by maximising job insecurity, to keep wages low and to persuade us that there have never been more jobs in the history of the nation. What they fail to explain is why growth in this country is the weakest in the G7 and EU and why productivity has been bumping along the bottom for years. Funny, that. Not one person goes to work wanting less money. Blaming immigration for "driving down wages" is unfair, bonkers, xenophobic and often downright racist.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:24 AM

"You can't blame Lincolnshire farmers for not paying the minimum wage - they never have. Its just that now there are people who will work for even less."

If they won't pay the minimum wage they are breaking the law. If they deliberately pay a desperate man less than someone else for doing the same job, they are unprincipled. So you seem to be saying that you can't blame Lincolnshire farmers for being lawless and unprincipled. Well I can, hastening only to add that I'm sure it isn't all or even most of them.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:32 AM

""EU dictatorship." "
Don't feed a troll who ignores facts and uses these threads as a soapbox for his racism Steve
He will keep putting this extremism up and ignoring responses as long as he is fed "the oxygen of publicity"
He knows as well as the rest of us that there are no jobs to accommodate mythical training schemes#The Government has admitted that the problem lies with the education system not turning out applicants and that is what needs addressing, not the influx of immigrants who arriving with skills and are essential to the economy
Immigrants are essentially filling in a gap, not taking training places
HORSE'S MOUTH CONFESSION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:42 AM

Nothing to do with any UK Govt Labour or Conservative.

"Freedom of Movement" is one of the pillars of the European Dictatorship.....whichever government is in power in the UK must accept Free Movement or leave.
Thankfully the people of Great Britain had the sense to vote in favour of leaving the EU and regaining control over the affairs of the United Kingdom.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 12:04 PM

That's your trouble Steve,
you believe in myth.

Perhaps you haven't noticed but we live in a capitalist society you and the other faux lefties vote for the continuation of that type of society, so don't come whining to me that it's "just not fair".

Nobody said it would be "fair"....it isn't "fair" ....it will never be "fair"......   in fact the system would collapse if everything was "fair".
I could take you to areas where most of the folks haven't worked for generations, places where the "drug culture" and criminality are the local economy.......Fair, don't talk to me about what's not fair, you seem to be quite comfortable on your pension reasonable lifestyle, think yourself fucking lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 12:15 PM

Toldy you Steve - no response, just rantt
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 12:37 PM

A very peculiar post, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 01:17 PM

"A very peculiar post, that's for sure."
Nurse - the screens !!
Jm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 01:59 PM

are you sure its not you two that's got it wrong? with the best will in the world, what Ake says isn't a rant. that is really how it is in many parts of the country. i'm happy for you that you have missed seeing poor people living in desperate conditions - willing to work for less than a living wage, work on the black, work for gangers, work on commission....its always been half the economy of this country. that's what the unions were made to combat - and its why they're not allowed in many industries.

you really do need a reality check.

i disagree with Strolling Johnny/Backwoodsman about Brexit - but I'm pretty sure he will tell you how the hard drugs became the mainstay of the economy when the mines went in the north notts area. working men became the lumpenproletariat - willing to work in out of the way factories for a hundred quid a week to blow on a weekend. things really were that bad, and into this hell broth came the economic refugees from every corner of the globe.

if you lived somewhere where this didn't happen count yourself bloody lucky - but be assured it happened.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 02:21 PM

Toldy you Steve - no response, just rantt
Jim Carroll

"A very peculiar post, that's for sure."
Nurse - the screens !!
Jm Carroll

Strange. I can understand perfectly what Ake is saying. As the economic cycle progresses job oportunities expand and contract as a direct response. Shortage of labour drives wages up, surfeit drives them down.
The unskilled at the bottom of the heap suffer the most grief. This is a harsh reality but anyone sucking on the public teat like teachers are well insulated from such facts of life. Just continue living in your deluded bubble. You probably also support that maniac Len McCluskey with his threats to break the law. You armchair socialists have not got a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 02:28 PM

that's an unpleasant and unnecessary thing to say Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:08 PM

Well I suppose we have to conclude from your posts that you had bloody awful teachers, Iains. You certainly weren't sucking on any of their teats.

One thing that we teachers come to realise is that the real bloody idiots of this society are the people who don't see the value of the education they had at school. There are two egregious examples on this forum, Iains and Teribus, both completely pig-ignorant of what being a teacher entails and both as rough in their manners and demeanour as a vulture's crutch.

And fer chrissake, Al, if you really think akenaton had it right in that post, then there's no bloody hope for you.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:09 PM

"Just continue living in your deluded bubble. "
Unncessary and nasty indeed
I was brought up on council housing estateds and worked for a living - I am now livin g on a staaate pension with no oyther income
We buried a sister earlier this year - one of twins 9 years younger than me
Both left school with good marks but were unable to get higher education because it wasn't available to us in those days and my parents would not have been able to afford keepin them
They went to work in a factory - labouring for a third less than the maen were getting for the same job
Mora - the one who died was a stacker in a warehouse and dri=ove a fork-lift truck as part of her job
Both of them earned a pittance as unskilled workers.
Five years ago Moira had a fall and broke her femur which led to a mini-stroke and kidney infection, which eventually demanded dialysis
Her treatment caused another infection which needed hospitalisation - which Ake and Teribus dexscribed as "oh my sore back" and scrounging off the state to pay for holidays"
She went blind bust was assured it could be cured by an operation (which she never got because the waiting lists were too long)
Eventually, she had her toes removed, but due to overworked, underpaid and underappreciated hospital staff, the operation was botched and the removal of the leg became necessary - she gave up, demanded we let her die
She died in early July
When you scum talk about "sucking on the public teat" and "bubbles" and "breaking the law" take a look at how the real world is for the majority of Britain's population
HOW FUCKING DARE YOUR, YOU INHUMAN PRiCKS?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:11 PM

Plenty of Typos there for you turds to feed from
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:13 PM

Freedom of Movement is one of the pillars of European Democracy. Its our right of Free Movement, which the likes of you Ake, want to take away from us, and our children and grandchildren.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:32 PM

Heartily agreed, David.

This "armchair socialist" was brought up in a slum for the first ten years of my life. I had planty of experiences to keep me grounded, thank you Iains. You need to stop copying Teribus. I told you that you come across as his puppydog. Like him, you make assumptions about people who you've never met and know about only from what you read here. That isn't safe.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:32 PM

Back to my over-emotional post
I've become tired and rather bored with being called "anti-British" even "rcist" by Keith, Tribus and Ake, because of my attitude to British politicians and what they have done to my home country
I don't think I have ever come across three people who hate the ordinary British people as much as they do - scroungers. greedy - malingerers - bed-blockers- stupid - lazy, ruiners of the economy, begrudging and jealous............. you name it, these people have accused the British people of being it, over and over and over again.
And now we have Iains - with his little more than a 'Cap'n Flint parrot-like repeating the insults of Long-John Silver Terinbus
"Hatred and contempt" sums up the attitude of these people, without whom we wouldn't have lights or homes or running water.... or the wherewithal of everyday living.
If all the bakers dropped dead tomorrow, life would go on more or less as normal
If the same thing happened to our tradesmen we'd all be up to our necks in shit, stumbling around in the dark
Personally, I am proud to be included in their hatred - I would take it as a slight if I wasn't
I much prefer the company of those they hate,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:34 PM

"If all the bakers dropped "
If all the Bankers, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 08:19 PM

Every time I read a post from Iains, especially one of his "Jimmy" or "Shaw" ones, I think to myself that I've seen that somewhere before. And of course I have! It's precisely what Teribus has been trying on for years. Iains has no mind of his own. He's latched on, totally unoriginally, to Teribus's modus operandi. Now why would anyone want to do that! Gosh, if there was a trick cyclist in the house, I'd ask him!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:21 AM

It is just a ploy to get the thread closed, Steve. They do it when they have nothing but insults left and then accuse others of doing the same. As soon as a moderator sees that this has turned into yet another platform for playground taunts it will go the way of all the others.

Pound to a penny one gobshite or the other will respond in a completely expected way ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:36 AM

I agree this is what happens Dave, but these people really mean what they say - their value is that they represent the values that decide things like Brexit and deals with shady regimes
Time to mobe on and have a sensible discussion aubot Brexit without the name calling and all too often strutting arrogance we have to deal with here - and not just on this thread
RIP to all this, eh lads?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:42 AM

To Shaw & Mr Carter,

Here is how it works. The immigrant seasonal workers do not work directly for a British employer. They are employed by a labour gang boss on contracts signed in their home countries, where that contract is enforceable in law. Gang boss has a contract to supply labour at legal wage limit plus a margin - otherwise the British party would be breaking the law. Gang boss pockets the money pays out the amount agreed with the worker then deducts travel and accommodation at extortionate rates. THAT Mr Carter is what your EU freedom of movement allows.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:29 AM

Getting a few rather hysterical people here. Need to take a few deep breaths and calm down. Good to see you behaving as normal. Nothing sensible to offer so just throw out a few insults in the hope the forum fairy will close this thread as well.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:33 AM

Who says we're only talking about seasonal workers, WOODCOCK? Free movement involves a hell of a lot more than just them. Not only that, if they come to the UK for seasonal work only they are not "immigrants."

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:53 AM

Look further down the thread SHAW, the subject under discussion did centre around seasonal agricultural workers. Of course paying attention to what others have to say is not one of your strongpoints. Same thing applies in other types of work. The EU has not dictated a standard hourly minimum wage - member states would not tolerate that so it is perfectly legal to get contacts for low wages signed in one country for work in another as I described.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:55 AM

"Getting a few rather hysterical people here. Need to take a few deep breaths and calm down. Good to see you behaving as normal. Nothing sensible to offer so just throw out a few insults in the hope the forum fairy will close this thread as well."

From: Iains - PM
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:41 PM

Jimmy and Shaw I could do a Father Christmas Ho Ho Ho after reading your respective posts. Just too funny for words. When do you start your comedy duo?

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:58 AM

What a surprise. Inane but consistent :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:59 AM

"SHAW,"
Is it totally beyond your capabilities not to fuck up yet another thread with your arrogant bullying behaviour Teribus
Do you not realise that people regard your strutting and posturing with contempt?
Please give it a rest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:02 AM

Of course we should realise that the terrible twins do not indulge in childish insults. It is sophisticated wit and cutting edge repartee when they do it. Makes them feel better about themselves I suppose.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:16 AM

If you wish to discuss the immigrants who work here permanently for UK employers, Bill Woodcock, you are not talking about those seasonal workers who work for yer Lincolnshire farmers. They are not immigrants. You conflated them with real immigrants. Not only that, they are not the people "driving wages down." Those seasonal workers have no control over what they get paid. It's those gangmasters and the employers here who collude with them who drive wages down, and it's illegal if the pay is less than the minimum wage. Any worker, seasonal or not, migrant or not, who works in this country must by law be paid the minimum wage at least. The only allowable deductions from their wages that can reduce them to below the minimum wage are for supplied accommodation and there are limits on what can be deducted for that. If there are employers or gangmasters or whoever who cause workers to receive less, they are BREAKING THE LAW. This whole discussion about migrant workers is bogus unless we home in on the real culprits. Why don't we ask why the law isn't being enforced? It is within the government's gift to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:17 AM

Please don't react to their "sophisticated wit and cutting edge repartee"
Dave
Iains has made it quite clear that'
s exactly what they want.
Still plenty more to discuss on brexit without hem
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:23 AM

Introduction: migrant workers in the UK

Migrant workers are people who come from other countries to work in the UK. Migrant workers include seasonal workers, full-time and part-time employees, and contract or self-employed workers.

Registering for a national insurance number

To work legally in the UK all migrant workers, including those from the European Union, must register for a national insurance (NI) number. You can start work before you have an NI number, but you will be charged emergency tax until you have one.

Pay rates for migrant workers

As a migrant worker you are protected by the same laws that protect other workers in the UK. You should receive equal pay to British workers doing the same work.

The national minimum wage

The national living wage and national minimum wage set minimum hourly rates that employers must legally pay workers in the UK.

Check your pay rate

The national living wage and minimum wage does not apply if you are genuinely self-employed.

If you are being paid per piece of work you finish rather than per hour, the total that you are paid must at least be equal to being paid the national minimum wage for the hours it takes you to do the work.

Payslips

You should receive a payslip either before or on the day you are paid. This should clearly show your total pay before tax and any deductions, as well as the amount you are actually being paid (your take-home pay). All deductions must be clearly listed.

Deductions

Tax and national insurance (NI) will be taken from your pay. How much is deducted depends on how much you earn.

No other deductions can be taken from your wages, unless they are written in your contract, or you have agreed to them with your employer before they are made. Any agreement must be confirmed in writing.

Even if you have agreed to a deduction, your employer cannot take off money so that you end up being paid less than the minimum wage, except for accommodation. Even for accommodation there is a limit to how much your employer can take from your pay.

If you think your employer is deducting too much for accommodation then call the Pay and Work Rights Helpline on 0800 917 2368 or speak to your UNISON rep.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:25 AM

That last post went prematurely - sorry. I meant to edit it but I won't bother now. It's from UNISON's website.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 06:22 AM

From the Guardian, a month before the referendum.

"The Office of National Statistics says that while the numbers of EU workers in Britain has risen by 700,000 since 2013, they are outnumbered by the extra one million Britons who have gone into employment in the same period. The number of British citizens working in the UK labour force is now at the near-record level of 28 million. That compares with 3 million foreign nationals.

As the economist Jonathan Portes has pointed out, it is not a zero-sum game in which there are only a fixed number of jobs to go round: "It's true that, if an immigrant takes a job, then a British worker can't take that job – but it doesn't mean he or she won't find another one that may have been created, directly or indirectly, as a result of immigration."

HMRC figures also show that EU migrants more than pay their way. Those who arrived in Britain in the last four years paid £2.54bn more in income tax and national insurance than they received in tax credits or child benefit in 2013-14. The Office of Budget Responsibility has estimated that their labour contribution is helping to grow the economy by an additional 0.6% a year...

...The Uk Statistics Authority also stresses that the number of people in work is not the same as the number of jobs in the economy. The ONS figures are estimates of the numbers of people in employment, so it is nonsense to talk about them showing "foreigners taking British jobs". They also stress that the figures do not reflect new migration, since they only cover those migrants who come to work, and some of those newly employed may well have been in the UK for some time.

What about the claim that they are depressing wages, particularly for the low-paid?

The most recent research from the centre for economic performance at the London School of Economics says "the areas of the UK with large increases in EU immigration did not suffer greater falls in the jobs and pay of UK-born workers. The big falls in wages after 2008 are due to the global financial crisis and a weak economic recovery, not to immigration."

Several studies have shown a small negative effect of migration on the wages of low-skilled workers in certain sectors in certain parts of the country, particularly care workers, shop assistants, and restaurant and bar workers. The effect has been measured at less than 1% over a period of eight years.

The LSE's Jonathan Wadsworth said: "The bottom line, which may surprise many people, is that EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons. In fact, for the most part it has likely made us better off. So, far from EU immigration being a "necessary evil" that we pay to get access to the greater trade and foreign investment generated by the EU single market, immigration is at worse neutral, and at best, another economic benefit."


If you're too impatient or blinkered to read that, or think that everything in the Guardian is automatically a pile of poo, the bulk of it is utterly factual. Admittedly it's about 16 months out of date by now but it confronts arguments used that persuaded people to vote leave. What emerges is that:

Migrant workers do not take British workers' jobs.

Migrant workers do not "drive wages down."

Migrant workers do not overload public services.

Migrant workers actually create extra jobs by coming here.

Migrant workers make a significant net contribution to the economy and are in no way a financial burden to the country. In fact, they contribute significantly to our economic growth. We could do with a bit more of that.

The leave campaign was largely predicated on "taking back control of our borders." The facts show how bogus that argument was. We were being lied to.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 06:31 AM

What is more, Teribus completely fails to address the huge benefits of Free Movement for our young people, increased opportunities to work and study, improve their knowledge and cultural understanding. The argument against is entirely bogus. The arguments for are compelling.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 06:47 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XZzglak-q4

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 06:59 AM

More useful input to the discussion. Carry on if you want to see the thread closed but don't moan when it is.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:00 AM

Iains, this thread, less than two hours ago.

"Nothing sensible to offer so just throw out a few insults in the hope the forum fairy will close this thread as well."

Who's the real clown around here, Iains?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:04 AM

Steve Shaw:
The national minimum wage
The national living wage and national minimum wage set minimum hourly rates that employers must legally pay workers in the UK.
Check your pay rate
The national living wage and minimum wage does not apply if you are genuinely self-employed.

Unfortunately, quoting from a Union's website may not always get you a full or factual answer.
From HMRC Here the list of those who may not be covered by National Minimum Wage is somewhat longer:

The following types of workers aren't entitled to the National Minimum Wage or National Living Wage:
• self-employed people running their own business
•company directors
• volunteers or voluntary workers
•workers on a government employment programme, such as the Work Programme
•members of the armed forces
•family members of the employer living in the employer's home
•non-family members living in the employer's home who share in the work and leisure activities, are treated as one of the family and aren't charged for meals or accommodation, for example au pairs
•workers younger than school leaving age (usually 16)
•higher and further education students on a work placement up to 1 year
•workers on government pre-apprenticeships schemes
•people on the following European Union programmes: Leonardo da Vinci, Youth in Action, Erasmus, Comenius
•people working on a Jobcentre Plus Work trial for 6 weeks
•share fishermen
•prisoners
•people living and working in a religious community

Work experience and internships

You won't get the National Minimum Wage or National Living Wage if you're:
•a student doing work experience as part of a higher or further education course
•of compulsory school age
•a volunteer or doing voluntary work
•on a government or European programme
•work shadowing

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:15 AM

"You won't get the National Minimum Wage or National Living Wage if you're:"
Wonder if itt's considered that all those on the list are not worth it or just that the poor, hard-pushed employer can't afford it?
God knows - the minimum wage is minimum enough as it is - nobody can live decently on it

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:26 AM

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:15 AM

"You won't get the National Minimum Wage or National Living Wage if you're:"
Wonder if it's considered that all those on the list are not worth it or just that the poor, hard-pushed employer can't afford it?
God knows - the minimum wage is minimum enough as it is - nobody can live decently on it
Fortunately the list you're referring to is very short, and there would be valid reasons to exclude the following from the minimum wage legislation:
•a student doing work experience as part of a higher or further education course
•of compulsory school age
•a volunteer or doing voluntary work
•on a government or European programme
•work shadowing

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:33 AM

"More useful input to the discussion. Carry on if you want to see the thread closed but don't moan when it is."

But as the "effin and blindin" in some of the posts above above came from a leftard then that is perfectly ok and to be encouraged?
The post is not even deleted!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:46 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeHN92SX-5Y

A very interesting speech from the European Parliament building.
A perspective of where we are!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:54 AM

"But as the "effin and blindin" in some of the posts above above came from a leftard then that is perfectly ok and to be encouraged?"
And the personal abuse and hate comes from you and the rest of the right
"Fortunately the list you're referring to is very short, a"
O that's alright then - it's ok to force people to live on a pittance as long as there's only a few of them
One of the great injustices of our society is that there isn't an enforceable Living Wage - as I keep saying - go and look at the growing gap between haves and have nots and the amount that the nation is deprived of by the rich not paying its tax
Of courres, all those greedy workers moonlighting their labour to pay for their second homesin the Bahamas and Jags must be crippling our country
Lock 'em all up and throw away the key, I say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:06 AM

"effin and blindin" may be not acceptable in polite company but it is neither abuse nor insulting in itself. No matter how politely you put them, insults are still insults.

Talking down to someone is far more insulting that telling them to fuck off. In my opinion.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:06 AM

So, Nigel, how is that germane to the discussion about EU migrants working in agriculture? If you don't trust a union's website I assure you that the same information is available elsewhere. I'm making the simple point that migrant workers working in this country on whatever basis must be paid at least the UK minimum wage. That's the law. The only deduction that may be made, apart from tax (probably irrelevant in many cases) and NI, is for any accommodation provided, and there are strict rules about the quality of that accommodation and how much may be deducted. It isn't very much. Of course, what actually happens may not comply with the law. But that is the law, and no gangmaster or UK employer may LEGALLY concoct a situation in which foreign workers get less than the UK minimum wage. The leave campaign made great play of the lies that the country is being swamped, social services couldn't cope, British workers were being discriminated against by foreigners taking their jobs and "driving down wages." The counter-argument (aka the truth) that migrant workers provided a net benefit to the economy to the tune of billions a year, were significantly aiding economic growth, were NOT taking jobs away from British workers, were NOT driving down wages and were not unduly burdening public services was lost in the sloganising and populist pandering to the lowest instincts of people emanating from the leave side. Had those truths prevailed in the campaign, we would never have voted to leave. Immigration was the main plank of the leave campaign and the whole thing was predicated on a pack of lies sold to a public who had been groomed in this kind of xenophobia for years.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:27 AM

i used to work for this headmaster. we were in the inner ring of brum, and they'd imported him from Wales. they used to believe that headmasters were a bit like bloodstock, and to improve the line - you didn't get someone who knew the kids - you got someone who'd been a whizz amongst the sheep rustlers.

so the guy sat in his office , not daring to walk the corridors of his own school. making up rules we couldn't enforce. making jokes in assembly - he'd got from the readers digest, and we couldn't give a shit about and the kids couldn't understand.

laughter is the best medicine when you're confronted by an idiot.

Steve - the legal entitlements that you speak of have been unenforceable for generations. the agricultural workers are dependant on the gangers for work. the farmers are having their balls squeezed by government regs, they are squeezing the gangers.
they are vulnerable. they have an insurance card etc. but that is their situation - always has been. along come the seasonal workers. it used to be their wives and kids and traveller families. then along comes the economic migrants. they work for even less.

there are no bad guys. its what monkeys do. if you're not a monkey you won't really get it.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:33 AM

Steve.
If your message was "Germane to the conversation" then my correction of the 'facts' it contained must also have been.

As to your 'simplification of what the Guardian said:

You: Migrant workers do not take British workers' jobs.
The Guardian: "it is not a zero-sum game in which there are only a fixed number of jobs to go round: "It's true that, if an immigrant takes a job, then a British worker can't take that job – but it doesn't mean he or she won't find another one that may have been created, directly or indirectly, as a result of immigration". I doesn't say that he will find such a job, or try to state whether mass immigration creates more or less jobs than the number of immigrants.

You: Migrant workers do not "drive wages down."
The Guardian: "Several studies have shown a small negative effect of migration on the wages of low-skilled workers in certain sectors in certain parts of the country, particularly care workers, shop assistants, and restaurant and bar workers. The effect has been measured at less than 1% over a period of eight years." A small negative effect is, nonetheless an effect.

You: Migrant workers do not overload public services.
The Guardian: mentions this matter only in passing: "EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons."

You: Migrant workers actually create extra jobs by coming here.
The Guardian, does mention the creation of jobs because of immigration, but does not state whether this is a net gain in job numbers, or a net loss.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:35 AM

Mayfly proudly announced yesterday the unemployment was now at its lowest level
What she forgot to mention was this is because unemployed workers are now nbeing forced to take jobs they are not suited for, that they don't want an they come with unlivable-on wages - they are there to make the figures look good rather than halp the unemployed
It took Corbyn to point out that the real wages of those in work are gradually being driven down because of the steady rise in inflation
'And the gap grows wider, and wider and wider…." As the song nearly said
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:35 AM

Nigel Parsons, exactly which of the groups on your fairly long bullet pointed list do you think should be entitled to the National Living Wage? None of those groups are workers at all. The one group I am slightly surprised to find on there is Members of the Armed Forces, though I would think that they would in any case be paid considerably more. What your list does not say is Immigrants or Seasonal Workers, these are entitled to the NLW just the same as anybody else.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:52 AM

You are clutching at straws, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:56 AM

From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:35 AM

Nigel Parsons, exactly which of the groups on your fairly long bullet pointed list do you think should be entitled to the National Living Wage? None of those groups are workers at all. The one group I am slightly surprised to find on there is Members of the Armed Forces, though I would think that they would in any case be paid considerably more.
I am not making a claim for any of the listed groups. I am just providing the official guidance to which people are not entitled (at present).
For you to go on and say: What your list does not say is Immigrants or Seasonal Workers, these are entitled to the NLW just the same as anybody else.
That argument falls down as you equate them to "anybody else". As many others are excluded, then which 'anybody else' are you comparing them to?
Immigrants or seasonal workers may also be 'Company Directors' or 'Self-employed' and thus included in the list quoted.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:04 AM

So, Al, the gangers and the farmers are breaking the law. The migrant workers are not. They are being exploited by law-breakers. Saying that 'twas ever thus and sort of implying that there's no point fighting it is blinkered and defeatist, and that attitude has been allowed to make the innocents, the migrant workers, into scapegoats. It's the FOREIGNERS (the innocents) who were targeted by the leave campaign, not the farmers or the gangers (the criminals). Dunno about you, but I want to live in a country that operates under the rule of law. And the irony of the leave side's constant claiming that the dictatorial EU imposes it laws on us isn't lost on me. We can't even impose our own laws on ourselves.

By the way, we haven't had the minimum wage "for generations," Al.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:14 AM

If you're interested in "clutching at straws" you should read, Mr Juncker's speech from yesterday.

When Brexit was being debated (before the referendum) we were told that Brexit represented a leap into the dark, compared to the status quo of remaining in the EU.
Brexit argued that the status quo would not last, and that to remain would be a "leap in the dark".

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:28 AM

That post demonstrates nothing as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:41 AM

When people who wished to leave predicted a move towards a United States of Europe, those who wished to remain dismissed the idea as fantasy. It is now clear that that is the true European destiny. The same applies to the idea of a European army. Another idea, dismissed by those trying to persuade us to stay, confirmed by Mr Junker yesterday.-

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:47 AM

i want to live in Buckingham Palace - but that's not how it is.

what the fuck would the guardian know or care about the facts of life as lived on this island?

they're journalists with cushy jobs, a political agenda to push....

thus the stunned amazement at the result of the referendum. well bugger me sideways...there is a reality out there that we weren't aware of! How dare they disagree with the good people of Planet Radio 4?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 10:09 AM

Juncker has been prattling on about a European army for years and it's getting no closer. Eurosceptics here have been prattling on about a United States of Europe for decades without actually explaining how the EU, with its highly-disparate states and cultures, each with its own strong sense of nationalism, not to speak of all the multiple languages and currencies, is ever going to become an across-the-pond copy of the US. It's one man's vision, there are plenty of powerful naysayers in the EU and, deep down, even you diehard brexiteers know that you will see neither in our lifetimes. Of course he wants more harmony in a frequently-turbulent EU. That's his job. But jumping on one man's very unoriginal speech in order to say there, told you so, we wuz right all along...very valiant of you. But I absolutely promise you that you won't be saying that in two years' time. If I'm wrong I'll eat Paddy Pantsdown's hat and appear on Match Of The Day in my underpants (if I can find any).

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM

well if he really wanted harmony and England not leaving the EU. He and all other EU big wigs should have treated David Cameron more courteously and left him a figleaf of self respect so that he could homeward in triumph.

they didn't . they treated the english pm like shit. and the english people got a very clear vision of the role they had in mind for us, and the regard they had for us - apart from our money - which they still seem to think they've got some sort of right to.

in truth we'll be holding our guts in for years after the years of filleting england's industry. 2 years doesn't even begin. but if you're in business with an asshole who has no respect for you. lose him ASAP.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM

Juncker has been prattling on about a European army for years and it's getting no closer. Eurosceptics here have been prattling on about a United States of Europe for decades without actually explaining how the EU, with its highly-disparate states and cultures, each with its own strong sense of nationalism, not to speak of all the multiple languages and currencies,
The disparate currencies won't be a problem. There was already a requirement for any new members of the EU to adopt the Euro. In yesterday's speech Mr Juncker call for more work to get rid of the disparate currencies.
Juncker proposed more help for all EU countries to join the euro, so that it could be truly "the single currency of the European Union", along with a wide range of institutional changes, including the creation of an EU finance minister and the widening of the Schengen area, in which passport-free travel is allowed.
(from The Guardian)

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 10:55 AM

I certainly agree with him about Schengen and I can't see that having a finance minister would be so bad. My feeling about the euro is that it was a massive mistake. It has certainly done very little to promote harmony or unity and has crucified at various times some of the poorer countries. There are times when your currency has to be allowed to float. The euro has benefited Germany way more and above all the other eurozone members. The architects of the single currency must have thought that there would be much more harmonisation of the relative wealth of the different economies. It was a nice idea but it was never going to happen.

As for showing Cameron more respect, what respect did he show the EU? He went in there guns blazing, full of hubris, promising us the earth, trying to kid them that they needed us so badly, with tbe blackmail of his referendum the only weapon in his armoury. He got next to nowt and that's precisely what he deserved. One thing's for sure. He doesn't deserve the respect of anyone in this country any more. Tragically, David Davis has the same attitude. The EU will manage very well without us. He doesn't see that. Juncker saw it precisely correctly yesterday. It took Farage's brainless intervention to draw it undiplomatically out of him.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 11:20 AM

As for showing Cameron more respect, what respect did he show the EU?
Showing Cameron more respect? I think you've just made that one up.
Respect needs to be earned. However, courtesy is due to anyone.
What Big Al actually said (not how you translated it) was:
should have treated David Cameron more courteously and left him a figleaf of self respect

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 11:33 AM

You are being deliberately obtuse Nigel. If Company Directors are immigrants, then their entitlement or otherwise to the NLW is exactly the same as any other company directors. As for seasonal workers being company directors, that is just silly.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 11:36 AM

Good heavens Shaw - the world as it should be according to UNITE - Wow.
Only Problem is the foreign contracts are legal and binding and because of EU law that permits gangs of labourers to be taken on in Bulgaria, Poland, etc and sent to work in the U.K. The ganger has a Company that has a contract with a British employer. The latter by the way IS paying the hanger' company the going rate.

Remember the Chinese "cocklers" in Morecombe Bay Shaw - they were working for Gangers who were connected to the Triads - not the most law abiding of organisations.

Try to limit you input to what happens in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 12:18 PM

"i want to live in Buckingham Palace - but that's not how it is."
Why should anybody want to surround themself with such poor taste and ostentation?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 12:18 PM

"i want to live in Buckingham Palace - but that's not how it is."
Why should anybody want to surround themself with such poor taste and ostentation?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 12:23 PM

i've always liked the van dykes.
you can think - chopped that bastards head off!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 12:31 PM

No foreign contract that ends up with workers in this country receiving less than the UK minimum wage is legal in this country. You are wrong about that. The information on the Unison website is no different from that on the government website. Your comment on that was pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 12:41 PM

I'm really enjoying this.....the most intelligent and well versed contributors giving the remoaners the bums rush.

Also good stuff from Big Al straight from the heart.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:02 PM

If Cameron wanted more self respect, for a start he should not have done that thing with the pig. As it is I have far, far mor respect for Juncker, Barnier etc., even though their competence may cost the UK dear, than I do for any of those on the UK side of the current negotiating table. I can only hope that they remember that at least 48% of us did not want the current shambles, and hold out for us an offer of something like paid for associate EU citizenship

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:07 PM

Triads of course being a well known EU organisation. Illegal employment practices must be cracked down on and the government, specifically HMRC, is often remiss in doing so.

Steve is of course right, and Teribus is wrong, any contract which results in workers in the UK being paid less than the NLW is illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:15 PM

Hate to burst your bubble by introducing reality Shaw. What you state with regard to foreign companies trading within the EU just ain't so. Not surprised by your lack of knowledge wrt the real working world you've never worked in it. 👨🏻‍🎓

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:29 PM

Wrong Carter, what you started as being the case would amount to restraint of trade. Illegal within the EU as part of free movement. What jurisdiction applies to a commercial contract depends entirely on where that contract is signed. That great screed that Shaw pasted would apply to any worker signing up with a British employer with the contract signed in the U.K.

Oh just to clarify things for you, Cameron and the "pig thing" - it never happened - sorry to piss on your fireworks. If you doubt it you could always waste your time and energy by trying to find some substantive evidence that it did. So far many with far greater and better resources and contacts than you have tried and failed.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:30 PM

"Hate to burst your bubble by introducing reality Shaw"
"Not surprised by your lack of knowledge wrt the real working world you've never worked in it."
"giving the remoaners the bums rush."
Nice to see the level of friendly, intelligent debating level is being maintained y our superiors!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:35 PM

yes Ake you've let the side down with that remoaner jibe

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:51 PM

"The side," Al? Not picky, are you?

Bill "Teribus" Woodcock, I don't doubt, and have said so, that there are workers in this country who are paid below the legal minimum. But it is illegal. Against the law. A contract signed outside this country that breaches our laws is not valid in this country. And did you have such terrible teachers? You have one hell of a chip on your shoulder about us, you poor thing.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:02 PM

"yes Ake you've let the side down with that remoaner jibe"
Trolls live alone under Bridges
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:52 PM

http://www.gla.gov.uk/media/1584/jrf-forced-labour-in-the-uk.pdf

http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/zero-tolerance-for-severe-forms-of-labour-exploitation-in-the-uk/

note the date below!

http://www.cpc.ac.uk/publications/cpc_working_papers/pdf/2012_WP20_East_Central_European_Migration_Perspective_of_Employers_McCo

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:02 PM

"Remoaner"....call that an insult?   I think that it's an accurate description.

Now if it's insults you want dear readers, just trawl back through Jim or Steve's contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:17 PM

the point is its name calling. and it doesn't contribute anything to the discussion except animosity

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:30 PM

A foreign company employing people in the UK has to comply with UK labour law. What you may be saying is that a foreign company which wins a contract in the UK can bring its own workforce with it under its own terms and conditions, and pay them under their domestic law. First, this will not be stopped by ending free movement, only by ending free trade. Second, it works both ways, British companies can take their own workforce with them to fulfil contracts abroad. But this is irrelevant to the situation where the end user is a domestic company. It isn't that a domestic company is contracting a Hungarian one to pick fruit on its farms. It is employing Hungarian workers at UK rates, probably because Hungarian workers are just more productive.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:58 PM

"the point is its name calling. and it doesn't contribute anything to the discussion except animosity"

This is mental midget here (Jimmie's favourite desription of me), that seems to have a habit of talking down to people, and I agree with you. Tell me Stevie, do I talk down to you as well? This concept does raise some interesting ideas about self worth. Seems to be those same people that like to call others insecure are in reality the ones with a problem.
I suppose they must have their little jest, but who is laughing at whom I wonder?

Now for some accurate figures concerning gangmasters:

http://www.gla.gov.uk/our-impact/conviction-totals/

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:02 PM

Which seems to suggest that non-compliance with the law is a diminishing problem.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:21 PM

David Carter(UK) We would hope that your interpretation is correct. But it is also true that the number of convictions is also influenced by the weight of resources utilized to address the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:31 PM

Your second sentence has got it. Your third is nonsense - it is solely because of the right of free movement that they get away with it - even Jeremy Corbyn twigged that.

Oh dear 👨🏻‍🎓 I must be really getting to you - told you about that "tell" of yours before. Fact is 👨🏻‍🎓you've never worked in the real world one day in your life - let's face it you got paid for attendance only - hmmmm gold plated final salary pension too that the tax payer has to subsidise. What a poor return for their money.