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Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs

DigiTrad:
A HARD RAIN'S A-GONNA FALL
GOD ON OUR SIDE
TIMES THEY ARE A CHANGING
YOU AIN'T GOING NOWHERE


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David C. Carter 21 Jun 21 - 04:12 AM
GUEST 20 Jun 21 - 02:13 PM
GUEST,# 19 Jun 21 - 08:00 PM
GerryM 19 Jun 21 - 07:41 PM
GUEST,# 19 Jun 21 - 06:56 PM
Bonzo3legs 19 Jun 21 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 19 Jun 21 - 09:46 AM
gillymor 19 Jun 21 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 19 Jun 21 - 09:27 AM
Allan Conn 19 Jun 21 - 03:40 AM
Joe Offer 19 Jun 21 - 02:42 AM
Allan Conn 19 Jun 21 - 02:31 AM
GerryM 19 Jun 21 - 12:22 AM
Bonzo3legs 18 Jun 21 - 04:40 PM
GUEST,Guest 18 Jun 21 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,guest The Sandman 28 Jan 21 - 06:20 PM
GUEST,LynnH 28 Jan 21 - 03:11 PM
The Sandman 24 Jan 21 - 03:15 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 21 - 05:55 PM
Dave Sutherland 23 Jan 21 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,LynnH 23 Jan 21 - 01:00 PM
The Sandman 23 Jan 21 - 12:38 PM
Jeri 23 Jan 21 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,LynnH 23 Jan 21 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,Jerry 22 Jan 21 - 05:26 AM
The Sandman 21 Jan 21 - 06:03 AM
The Sandman 20 Jan 21 - 12:12 AM
The Sandman 20 Jan 21 - 12:04 AM
Joe_F 19 Jan 21 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,# 19 Jan 21 - 09:58 AM
GUEST,RA 19 Jan 21 - 09:32 AM
Jim McLean 19 Jan 21 - 07:28 AM
Dave Hanson 19 Jan 21 - 06:01 AM
GerryM 19 Jan 21 - 05:21 AM
GUEST 18 Jan 21 - 12:30 PM
Allan Conn 18 Jan 21 - 12:26 PM
Dave Sutherland 18 Jan 21 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,guest The Sandman 18 Jan 21 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,# 18 Jan 21 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 18 Jan 21 - 10:23 AM
David C. Carter 18 Jan 21 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Jerry 18 Jan 21 - 08:47 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jan 21 - 08:24 AM
GUEST,The Sandman 18 Jan 21 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,guest The Sandman 18 Jan 21 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,guest The Sandman 18 Jan 21 - 07:43 AM
Jos 18 Jan 21 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,The Sandman 18 Jan 21 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,the sandman 18 Jan 21 - 07:05 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jan 21 - 05:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: David C. Carter
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 04:12 AM

In the film"The Savage Innocents" 1960,Anthony Quinn played the role of an Eskimo.Dylan said he'd seen that movie.

For some people,every Dylan song is about drugs;Yeah,right.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 02:13 PM

Mighty Quinn isn’t a nonsense song/nursery rhyme. It’s a drug song in code, Quinn - Eskimo - Snow - Coke....


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,#
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 08:00 PM

You're absolutely right, Gerry. I'm also pretty sure hasn't done either song live. If he has, it's a well-kept secret.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GerryM
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 07:41 PM

OK, I wasn't familiar with the song, "Angelina". But Dylan never sang that one in concert, either, according to https://www.bobdylan.com/songs/angelina/


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,#
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 06:56 PM

As has been said a few times, "Angelina" is a different song than "Farewell Angelina." Lyrics and where to locate Dylan's take of the former there also.

https://www.ebbemunk.dk/dylan/dylan_angelina.html


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 04:08 PM

No not Farwell Angelina, I'm referring to "Angelina"


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 09:46 AM

Oh hockey stick! Sorry Allan.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: gillymor
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 09:45 AM

Off hand I can think of a lot of Dylan songs that the man himself did the definitive version of, IMO.
Outlaw Blues
Million Dollar Bash
Tangled up in Blue
It Takes a Lot to Laugh
Highway 61
Stuck Inside of Mobile
Girl From the North Country
Tonight I'll Be Staying Here With You
I Threw it All the Way
Down in the Flood
Hurricane
...just for starters.

After Blood on the Tracks I think his voice and songwriting abilities started to ebb but that's compared to his earlier brilliance. Hurricane being one exception.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 09:27 AM

Just now noticed the question RE: popular opinion from last January, assuming it was for me:

DtG: How is that different to any other forum?

It's absent (or more obviously irrelevant) in any forum discussing music's intrinsic values… duration, bpm, copyrights, publishing &c. otoh, this entire thread is just below-the-line BS about “likes.”


Joe: ...EVERYBODY sings Dylan songs better than Dylan does. - Nope!

Alan: I've never heard a version of "Desolation Row" that I like better than Dylan's recording. And I far prefer Dylan's version of "One More Cup Of Coffee" to any cover I have heard. - Yes.you.do!

See the difference?


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 03:40 AM

Joe it is pretty childish of folks to take the hump with you just for expressing your opinion. I get what you mean about a lot of songs especially if they are being sung by the likes of Baez. I's take her "Sad Eyed Lady Of The Lowlands" anyday! I'd say there are exceptions though. I've never heard a version of "Desolation Row" that I like better than Dylan's recording. And I far prefer Dylan's version of "One More Cup Of Coffee" to any cover I have heard. The one Tom Jones has out just now is not that great at all.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 02:42 AM

But "Farewell Angelina" was a trademark song for Joan Baez, and she sang it well. A few weeks ago, I said in a singaround that EVERYBODY sings Dylan songs better than Dylan does. One person said I should never say something so insulting again, and I refused. He's now threatening to never attend another singaround where I'm present.
Oh, well.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 02:31 AM

According to Baez he didn't even remember writing "Farewell Angelina" until she reminded him. She said she sat beside him as he churned the lyric out on his typewriter. He went through it several times then just threw the lyric sheet away. She thought "well if you are not going to use it then I am" and she recorded it herself. He later said "that is quite a good song - where did you get it" to which she said something like "you wrote it - you idiot"


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GerryM
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 12:22 AM

According to https://www.bobdylan.com/songs/farewell-angelina/ no, Dylan never performed Farewell Angelina in concert.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 04:40 PM

Did Dylan ever perform Angelina live?


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 01:56 PM

'Wiggle Wiggle' is definitely the least Dylan-like song, and 'Nettie Moore' is the most archetypal (according to www.dylanmetrics.com)


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,guest The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 06:20 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pid0Ud4y3XY
he sings much better then 1963 than now, it is a good version


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 03:11 PM

If it's meant that Dylan never sang 'North Country Blues' live then how come he sang it at Newport and there's a video of this on YouTube?


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 03:15 AM

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Dave Sutherland - PM
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 03:26 PM

I'm sure that I read somewhere that Dylan had never sung this song live; only for "The Times They Are A' changing" album."
Thank god for that, once upon a time Dylan COULD Sing , he wrote a good song but if he tried to sing it now, he would possibly sound like Lee Marvin with a fake oklahoma accent


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 05:55 PM

"It's a good idea to remember songwriters can have a fun, silly side. Not everything is dead serious."

Yep. Even McCartney managed that bloody frog thing... :-)


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 03:26 PM

I'm sure that I read somewhere that Dylan had never sung this song live; only for "The Times They Are A' changing" album.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 01:00 PM

Re: 'North Country Blues'_

I suspect that there's a good dose of personal experience in this song.
Hibbing, where Dylan grew up, was in the 1950s/early 60s, a fairly prosperous iron mining town where Dylan's father and uncle had an electrical goods business - fridges, washing machines, tellies etc. -most of which would have been purchased on the never-never. Then iron mining went downhill, people couldn't keep up the payments and the Zimmermann family, including Bob, had to go out on repossession trips, which probably gave him unexpected, possibly unpleasant, views behind the scenes of many families. The fathers who went to buy a paper or cigarettes and never came back, the classmate who on Friday was in class but not on Monday because the family had 'disappeared' during the weekend. Even though it's written from a woman's viewpoint I really get the impression that he knew what he was singing about.

I sing this song unaccompanied!

The background story applies to any rundown mining and/or heavy industry region


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 12:38 PM

I also sing 'Eternal Circle'" quote LYNNE H
well i have it in a Dylan song book and it has guitar chords. This is the same book that has bob dylans dream which uses the idea of the opening lines of lord franklin, and possibly the tune, [which was the croppy boy tun]e] cant find the book now TO CONFIRM THIS. maybe it got thrown out


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:38 AM

I brought this up here, or somewhere - can't remember, and can't be bothered to look for it. It's a good idea to remember songwriters can have a fun, silly side. Not everything is dead serious.


1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Words and Music by Woody Guthrie
------------------------------------------
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,
A, B, C, D, E, F, G.
Hoodoo, voodoo, seven, twenty-one, two,
Haystack, hoe-stack, hey do the hoe-ta,
High boga, low joker, ninety-nine, a zero,
Sidewalk, streetcar, dance a goofy dance.

Choo-choo, choo-choo, chooka-chooka, choo-choo,
Choo-choo, choo-choo, chooka-chooka, choo-choo,
Choo-choo, choo-choo, chooka-chooka, choo-choo,
Choo-choo, choo-choo, chooka-chooka, choo.

One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,
A, B, C, D, E, F, G.
Blackbird, blue jay, one, two, three, four,
Trash-stack, jump back, E, F, G.
Big man, little man, fat man, skinny man,
Grasshopper, green snake, hold my hand.

Choo-choo, choo-choo, chooka-chooka, choo-choo,
Choo-choo, choo-choo, chooka-chooka, choo-choo,
Choo-choo, choo-choo, chooka-chooka, choo-choo,
Choo-choo, choo-choo, chooka-chooka, choo.

Mama cat, tom cat, diapers on the clothesline,
2, 4, 6, 8, run and hide.
Crazy man, lazy girl, pony on a tin can,
I'll be yours and you'll be mine.

Choo-choo, choo-choo, chooka-chooka, choo-choo,
Choo-choo, choo-choo, chooka-chooka, choo-choo,
Choo-choo, choo-choo, chooka-chooka, choo-choo,
Choo-choo, choo-choo, chooka-chooka, choo.

One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,
A, B, C, D, E, F, G.
And one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,
A, B, C, D, E, F, G.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 10:54 AM

'Wiggle Wiggle' - didn't Woody Guthrie have a penchant for similar songs?

Years and years ago I learned 'The Ballad of Donald White' from a book of Dylan's song texts. No tunes. So I made my own tune and,in the course of the years,I've sung it in various folk-clubs. Years later I stumbled across a certain Broadside Record with 'Blind Boy Grunt's' rendition of the song. Oh dear,'Tramps and Hawkers'! Sorry Bob but it doesn't work for me so I'll keep using my own tune!
I also sing 'Eternal Circle', which I learned from the dots in 'Bob Dylan's songs for Harmonica'. Somewhere along the line I've changed a few notes but hey,that's the folk process!


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 05:26 AM

Yes, I like the powerful yet understated lyrics, leaving the listener to paint their own pictures. The tune though was traditional surely, but I can’t quite place it.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 06:03 AM

North Country Blues, is one of his best songs,Arguably his best imo


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 12:12 AM

With songwrting,there is no such thing as lack of influence but at what point does influence change to plagiarism?,
my opinion for what it is worth is that Dylan should have just put Clayton down as co writer in the first place.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 12:04 AM

"don't think twice, it's alright" a song that became part of a legal dispute, quote wiki
Alleged plagiarism by Bob Dylan

Bob Dylan's friendship with Clayton dated back to 1961, Dylan's first year in New York City. Dylan traveled cross-country with Clayton and two other friends in 1963, during which they visited poet Carl Sandburg in North Carolina, attended Mardi Gras in New Orleans and rendezvoused with Joan Baez in California.[30]

In an interview published as part of a history of Greenwich Village folk club Gerde's Folk City, folk singer Barry Kornfeld described how Clayton's "Who's Gonna Buy You Ribbons (When I'm Gone)" morphed into Dylan's "Don't Think Twice":

    I was with Paul one day, and Dylan wanders by and says, 'Hey, man, that's a great song. I'm going to use that song.' And he wrote a far better song, a much more interesting song – 'Don't Think Twice, It's All Right'.[31]

Dylan's and Clayton's publishing companies sued each other over the alleged plagiarism. As it turned out, Clayton's song was derived from an earlier folk song entitled "Who's Gonna Buy You Chickens When I'm Gone?",[32][33] which was in the public domain. The lawsuits, which were settled out of court, had no effect on the friendship between the two songwriters


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 06:18 PM

Dave Van Ronk (or possibly Elijah Wald), in _The Mayor of Macdougal Street_, says of "Bobby":

"He always seemed to think that it was easier to write a new song than to fix an old one."

In other words, don't think twice, it's alright. (Some of the time, it seems to me, he didn't bother to think even once.) That probably explains why I lost interest in him. I was much taken by him when he first appeared (early '60s, was it?); I thought "Fancy that! A human voice coming out of a loudspeaker." I had a friend, at the time, who was one of those "I can get it for you wholesale" types, and he wanted to get me a turntable. I let him after reflecting that if I had a turntable, I could listen to Bob Dylan any time I wanted. By now I have hundreds of LPs, tape cassettes, and CDs, but only a couple are of him.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,#
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 09:58 AM

Well, whether one likes Dylan's work or not, he garnered a Nobel Prize and $300,000,000 for his songs. May you all have such good fortune.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 09:32 AM

Allan Conn - "I think he did write a lot at speed".

He probably wrote a lot ON speed too!


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Jim McLean
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 07:28 AM

I wrote Henny Munro, a Highland Clearance song, in my sleep. I woke up with the complete song still in my head.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 06:01 AM

Ewan MacColl wrote ' The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face ' over the telephone to Peggy who was in the USA [ where Ewan wasn't allowed ] and needed another song for a show, it took him 5 or 6 minutes.

BTW a mega hit for Roberta Flack.


Dave H


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GerryM
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 05:21 AM

Concerning how long it took Dylan to write a song, I like this story:

David Remnick’s stellar profile of Leonard Cohen in the New Yorker repeats the well-worn tale of the time that Bob Dylan asked him how long it took to write “Hallelujah.” “Two years,” he told him. “I really like ‘I and I.’ How long did it take you wrote that?” Dylan told him a mere 15 minutes. As Remnick pointed out, it actually took Cohen five years to write “Hallelujah,”....


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 12:30 PM

Dave, I have not criticsed,Dylan for using traditional tunes.
Farwell Angelina an anti war song,interesting, I suppose someone, some where will state categorically that LAY LADY lAY, was written to encourage egg production for chickens and to expose the cruelty of battery egg production


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Allan Conn
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 12:26 PM

"Wiggle Wiggle is just a glorified nursery rhyme, and probably a hasty album filler at a guess. But then, so what? Haven’t we all written some poor stuff at some time?"

Spot on Jerry. I think everyone knows that Dylan has low points as well as all the high points. He turned out lyrics and songs like a production line through much of the 60s but for some of his later career some of his output was not of the same high standard - and seemingly went for long periods not being able to come up with much at all. Call it writer's block or whatever. He's produced a few great albums in the last quarter of a century all the same.

And yes I think he did write a lot at speed. Seemingly "Farewell Angelina" was written at speed and dismissed by him almost instantly. Baez seemingly thought "well if you're not using I am". She said that he later forgotten he'd written it when he first heard her version.

Judging him on "Wiggle Wiggle" though would be like judging Bowie on "The Laughing Gnome"


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 12:18 PM

The late Derek Brimstone used to introduce “Farewell Angelina” as the greatest anti-war song that he had ever encountered; sadly he is no longer around to expand upon that statement.
In “The Singing Islands” the notes to “Farewell to Tawathie” state that the tune has been used for other traditional songs while A.L.Lloyd declares that George Scroggie was the author of the song so he was doing exactly what Bob Dylan did some 120 years later.
I don’t know whether Dylan regrets writing the song but in more recent years he has stated that he wishes that he hadn’t recorded “Ballad in Plain D” and anyone who knows the back story to that bitter piece would see his point.
“Wiggle, Wiggle” has been universally derided as Dylan’s all time worst song the only thing that gives it a shred of credibility is that on the album, “Under the Red Sky” a seriously disappointing follow up to “Oh Mercy”, Slash plays guitar on that track. The album is apparently a collection of children’s songs but personally I don’t see that.
All that is from a 70+ year old who stood for twelve hours in Hyde Park in 2019 in order to listen again to the man and who went away very satisfied.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,guest The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 10:34 AM

Stalin has nothing to do with this thread,
MacColl was a songwriter, whose songs have entered the folk tradition,
he was certainly not beloved by me.
,I made a conscious decision to avoid his club,
      however i acknowledge that he was a professional and poular performer who presented his songs and music in a carefully presented polished manner, he along with others was responsible for establishing a network of clubs, for which i am grateful
i think his songwriting was generally of a high standard, i think his work on the radio ballads was outstanding.
MacColl gave generously of his time to others, on the first occasion i met him , i took a dislike to him, however in hindsight and with maturity[ i was a teenager when i met him].
I realise that his influence on the uk folkascene had many positives, imo, more positives than negatives.
it is hilarious, that David Carter, should post and say THE SANDMANS BELOVED., When over the years here on mudcat . i have criticised him, and had many arguments with Jim Carroll about him.
However, in 2021, i believe that THE UK Folk revival would have been a poorer place without him, his legacy lives on in the songs that he wrote that are regularly sung and recorded by others


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,#
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 10:33 AM

Here is a Wikipedia list of people who have covered various of Dylan's songs. (Note that Pete Seeger is on the list.) :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artists_who_have_covered_Bob_Dylan_songs


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 10:23 AM

A bit unnecessary. Don't take the bait.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: David C. Carter
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 10:09 AM

I was wondering how long it would take before The Sandman's beloved Stalinist,self appointed Commissioner of "folk music",a certain person by the name of MacColl would get a mention.
Nice man Stalin;How many millions was it who died in the camps?

I once had the misfortune to have to listen to MacColl.
Like listening to beige wallpaper.

Don,t talk to me about David Bowie.Ciggy Sawdust and the Spidermen in Jars!Let's Dance;Very profound indeed.


Fred Spoons,and his Knife 'n' Fork Ensemble.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 08:47 AM

I have to say that I certainly prefer song lyrics that are also poetic, and because there are many folk songs (trad and contemporary) that manage to be that, as examples mentioned above, I have always been more drawn to that particular genre. My point was that songs of any genre don’t have to be poetic though, and some of the most memorable ones certainly are not

I’m not sure why broadening a thread out is a wild goose chase, although I know thread creep can be irritating, but haven’t there been enough inconclusive debates about Dylan? Someone above here got me thinking rather about the difference between lyrics and poetry, which I though might be a more productive diversion, but obviously not then.

So, back to the well worn track. To my mind, Dylan’s vast catalogue includes a whole range of material from poetic to simple nonsense lyrics, again as demonstrated above in this thread. Is that not his prerogative though? It’s only the music media that chose to call him a poet; in his own words, he was never more than ‘just a song and dance man’. Leonard Cohen was a published poet before turning songwriter, and most of his songs do work as poetry as well, in my view, but even he recorded some non-poetic throwaway stuff as well.

As for Farewell Angelina, I see it as pseudo poetry, probably written ‘under the influence’, using some rich imagery but not making a lot of sense to the listener, other than as a wistful, meandering love song. Ballad in Plain D was a rewrite of the traditional I Once Loved a Girl, but done in a hurry I imagine, because the lady in question was about to walk out of his life. Wiggle Wiggle is just a glorified nursery rhyme, and probably a hasty album filler at a guess. But then, so what? Haven’t we all written some poor stuff at some time?


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 08:24 AM

I think I've got a good idea. Let's all send our posts to Dick for his prior approval before we put them up in the thread. That should keep it friendly!


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 08:06 AM

‘I am still unable to see in him anything other than a youth of mediocre talent. Only a completely non-critical audience, nourished on the watery pap of pop music, could have fallen for such drivel.
quote Ewan MacColl
I think my assesment of Dylan and my criticisms are kinder and more positive, however I note i still get attacked by Dylan fans notably Jeri.
Jeri seemed to think it necesary for me to be a songwriter to offer a critique.
Most music critics who publish reviews need no such qualification., most of them are not professional musicians, singers, performers or songwriters
I would not dismiss Angelina as total drivel, i am just puzzled how a songwriter can mix cliches and peotic imagery to me the song is a curates egg


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,guest The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 07:50 AM

Farewell to Tarwathie Dylan took this trad melody and wrote farewell angelina, which song has a clearer message imo it is Farewell to Tarwathie.
If anyone can, perhaps they would explain what Angelina is about, imo dylan seems to mix cliches with poetic imagery, was he having a bad trip?


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,guest The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 07:43 AM

Jos, the discussion is about Dylan song writing and his songs not "what is a folk song",
Dylans better songs and not so good songs can be discussed without it being necessary to mention genre, let us discuss his songs in a friendly way, without going on an intellecual wild goos chase about something that is not relevant, that is "are they folk songs"


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Jos
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 07:29 AM

I thought this was supposed to be a friendly discussion - not an A-level exam where marks will only be given to pupils whose answers are strictly relevant to the exam question.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 07:25 AM

jerry, your arguments have more flaws, examples of poets that generally recognised as being of above average Kipling, C Fox Smith, whose poems have been set successfully to music.


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,the sandman
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 07:05 AM

Song lyrics of well written songs often do stand up as poetry , that is why.
examples
john of dreams[ the whole of the song]   


Bogies bonny belle[ her name was isabel the lily of the valley and the primrose of the dell]
we expect songs of any genre to be well written [ that does not mean they have to be good poetry] , however..
wiggle wiggle ballad in plaind d, are neither poetry or well written.
   some of dylans songs have good tradtional melodies some have good original melodies, some do not, some are well written some are not, but what has it do with folk song ,other than he occasionally borrowed trad melodies
Many tradtional songs or folk songs are well written, and have stood the test of time that is why they are still being sung, and have interesting tunes, but it is irrelevant to this discussion, we are discussing dylans songs not their genre which is arguable, and not relevant.
    because something is popular or a hit it does not mean, it deserves to be popular or is good, it can be a result of funding, money spent on promotion, it can perhaps have a good tune and crap lyrics, that does not make it a well written song.
Finally we were discussing Dylan songs whether they are the badly written ones or the well written ones, it is debatable whether they are folk songs, so please desist from leading us on an intellectual wild goose chase
Jerry, you in your post are calling them that, but it is not relevant . whether they are folk songs or not is a red herring.
we are talking about the songs of Dylan, please do not bring in genres, it muddies the waters
I know hundreds of good tradtional songs that have a good melody a profound message, a good narrative and some of those contain first rate poetry, so bloddy what, i also know some iffy ones,
it has nothing to do with the songs of Dylan any more than it has to do with the songs of or rodgers and hammerstein,ray davies or lennon macCartney or nanker phelge or flanders and Swann or gilbert and sullivan


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Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 05:38 AM

I won't get into that. I did put the word "poetry" into speech marks for a reason. I'll just say that many of the allusions in the lyrics referred to didn't hit too many nails on the head for me.


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