EFDSS proposed name change

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 04:46 AM

One unexpected consequence of this whole discussion is that I am considering joining.
Mainly because I hadn't known that membership gave you digital access to past editions of Folk Music Journal?

Does anyone (Steve?) know how many past editions are accessible? Is it a lot or just a select few? If membership allows me to browse hundreds of articles going back over decades then that for me is a worthwhile reason.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 06:01 AM

I am confused as to why there are people uncomfortable with the term "English".

Is it that they find the term too confining, wanting to include music from further afield or from recent additions to our diverse cultures?

Is it that they find it too wide a description and want to limit it to some geographic or historic restriction?

England is certainly not a single culture to anything like the same extent as Scotland or Wales. Is this the problem?

Can we find a common ground that resolves these questions?

Robin

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 06:55 AM

Matt
It will give you access to all the journals back to 1899, apart from the last few (2or 3?). The access is via JSTOR.
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 07:00 AM

I think using 'Folk Arts England' helps carry the meaning 'of England' rather than 'English'.

It's more obviously related to a geographic or administrative region. So from a cultural perspective, for example, music of NE England is 'of England' even though it may have strong influences from over the border and include players such as John Doonan. In any specific context stylistic elements that might be regarded as 'Scottish', 'Irish' or English' could be discussed using those terms.

This post is itself pedantic but I think 'of England' is less capable of misinterpretation than 'English' or being misused by some wavers of the St George's flag.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 07:41 AM

I am confused as to why there are people uncomfortable with the term "English".

EFDSS claims that there is "incontrovertible evidence that many people feel excluded by the word 'English' " but they haven't shown us that evidence. They have apparently carried out a survey, but haven't shared the results with the members, who are supposed to simply accept this.

The single response they have published says "Having grown up being continually told 'I am not English' by white people ... I find the word problematic ... there is a tacit association of 'Englishness' with 'Whiteness..." (They say this is one of several similar comments)

I don't question that, but I think it's the wrong context for this particular question. Does it apply to concepts such as English food, and if not why should it apply to the concept of English folk music? Even if the Society changes its name, will that make English folk music more attractive to someone who feels like this about their personal identity? How can the Society, whatever it calls itself, promote English folk music without using the term 'English'?

In the survey, the questions about "English and England" to me seem to be about this idea of and English personal identity, rather than its meaning to describe English folk.

It also asks whether "Folk Arts England" suggests it is the "custodians of all the traditions of folk music song and dance in England", which raises the question whether it intends to reduce its focus on English folk to include the traditions of other cultures now living in England.

EFDSS has promised to open the consultation to non-members in the New Year, when you will be able to see for yourselves.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 08:22 AM

I think 'of England' is less capable of misinterpretation than 'English'

I don't think that's right, as your mention of John Doonan illustrates. I don't know whether he thought of himself as English, Irish, Geordie, a mixture of any of those, or something else entirely, but his music was undoubtedly Irish. He played it in England, and so it could be said to be "of England", but it would be a brave person who claimed it to be English music.

There is a large Irish community in most parts of English which vigorously promotes its own musical culture. There are many other communities with their own traditions, which could also be said to be "of England".

EFDSS has never confined itself only to English music and neither has the wider folk scene. That's one thing, claiming to be the custodian of all the folk music "of England" (as one of the survey questions suggests) is quite another.

Perhaps this too is a pedantic interpretation, but it shows that the meaning of both phrases is unclear. The problem is that, however you interpret it, Englishness is at the core of EFDSS's purpose, and it is tying itself in knots trying to avoid saying this.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 10:03 AM

I didn't mean John Doonan's Irish music. He is on recordings with well known names of NE English music playing English (and probably Scottish) tunes. We hear an uncommon instrument being played in a style that borrows heavily from Ireland.

On another tack how about Scan Tester's repertoire? Quite a bit of that was from outside England. He was an English folk artist and his music was part of the the 'folk art of England' - in my book even when he was playing 'Edelweiss' at a festival session in the 60s. (I'll back off on that line before we get to folk clubs and Buddy Holly)

VWML did well on funding over the archive material, and pushing 'English Tradition' to the fore over that made sense. But what the folk do in clubs and pubs and what they listen to at concerts is wider than that but 'of England'

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 12:21 PM

Scan Tester played EDELWEISS, so what, Why should i want to play it or hear it just because he played it.
whatever folk do in pubs or clubs, does not automatically make it folk music, and none of that justifies changing the name.
When I played yesterday on the concertina i did not call it folk music, when i played in a pop group and playedsmall faces sha la lee[ what dross], i did not call it folk music

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 12:33 PM

As someone who has done most things in the Folk world the EFDSS has had no input, it has always appeared to me as a London luvvie thing . We the true folkies will continue as we have done before and the what ever it call itself will slip back into obscurity . I have also heard a dance team has been practicing at C#house have been asked to leave as they are hurting the floor Don’t think you could make it up

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 01:36 AM

"I have also heard a dance team has been practicing at C#house have been asked to leave as they are hurting the floor"

Floors have to be fit for purpose ~ and heavy footed cloggies and similar can cause expensive damage

Looks like EFDSS is suffering a reckoning as to who and what is and is not doing and its future existence?

I do hope that some realignment and home truths can be reached and restated!

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 06:52 AM

Dick wrote: -
Scan Tester played EDELWEISS, so what
What is interesting is not the fact that Scan played "Edelweiss" or "Puppet On A String" but the changes that his playing on a C/G anglo-concertina brought by his interpretation. Scan could see the potential for those tunes and they went through the process that Scan's playing brought to them. He played the keyed bugle in a militia marching band as a young msn and some of these tunes he returned to as dance polkas later in his life.
It is what happens; traditional musicians hear a tune from another genre and realise that they can consciously or consciously adapt them for their own purposes.
How many hornpipes came into the wider English repertoire from the entr'acte tunes of clog dancers with travelling theatre companies?
Why did so many Tex-Mex musicians become entranced with "The Birdy Song"?
What made the magnificent Malian balafon player, Kélétigui Diabaté, realise that he could bring something new and exciting to George Gershwin's "Summertime" to make it sound like an old Manding classic?
A Finnish waltz whose title in translation is something like "A Walk in the Woods" was taken across the Atlantic, words were put to it and several top artists recorded it in the 1950s as "Mocking Bird Hill". It came back across and was taken up as a waltz with variations in the north of Ireland.
It is what happens. The tradition becomes richer for it. We should celebrate it.

Sorry if this takes us off topic. I have just renewed my EFDSS subscription this week but if I see the organisation continue to move from being a grassroots organisation to being part of the Arts msinsteam mainly benefitting professional exponents (and I see the proposed change of name as part of this process) then I think that shall not be renewing next year.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 08:07 AM

Vic, "but the changes that his playing on a C/G anglo-concertina brought by his interpretation."quote
That is your subjective opinion about his playing.,it is not a fact.
I recorded-"yesterday" and played it on a concertina ,it does not make it a folk tune, it might be a beautiful tune, That is neither here nor there, it is still a composition by Sir James Paul McCartney
Edelweiss is a composition by Richard Rodgers, That is a fact.
in theory, anyone getting paid for playing it should pay royalties, the fact that folk musicians might occasionally play composed poptunes does not suddenly make the composition a folk tune

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 08:15 AM

Well, I'm no big fan but, in defence of EFDSS:

No one flooring material is suitable for all dance forms. The group organizer and whomever is/was in charge of permitting the space should have known better from the start. If memory serves, Sharp House has (had?) a sprung pine floor. Fine for social dance but totally unsuitable for any percussive genre, eg: step, tap, flamenco &c.

Maple or hard oak is the only way to go for the right sound and durability. These days it costs a medium fortune to do it right.

Not that it matters here but, neither of the above would be optimal for the really physical stuff like ballet, urban or modern.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 08:42 AM

Dick,
I was merely pointing out that many tunes that now exist in many traditions can be traced to known composers or have been adopted from other ethnic musics and changed to fit different functions - and that the majority of modern folk ethnomusicologists consider that process and adaptation are as worthy of study as origin. You obviously think differently and that is fine - except that a close observation of the way that traditional musicians transmute written pieces is an observable fact and not an opinion.
No more from me on this.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 09:22 AM

Vic, the weakness of the style not repertoire determining folk music, lies when Cliff Richard and Peter Pears record The Water Is Wide, IMO stylistically THEY WRECK IT, but it is still a folk song.
The way that Traditional musicians transmute written pieces varies considerably, an example is IRISHFIDDLE styles.

imo the fact that Scan played Edelweiss possibly illustrates the weakness of the English TRADTIONAL INSTRUMENTAL REPERTOIRE of that time, compared to Scottish and Irish tradtional music.
The only reason I listen to other players is to listen to their musicality and enjoy their music.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 09:35 AM

that should read southern English repertoire,I am Excluding NORTHUMBRIAN Repertoire from that statement

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 02:47 PM

Quoting from another thread:
"In England there isn't even the desire for a sense of national identity which makes the Scots, Irish and Welsh at least recognise and acknowledge their traditional music even if they don't choose to listen to it for pleasure. The English have ignored their own traditional music heritage, and are embarrassed by it when it comes to their attention."
Would EFDSS's proposed name change help or hinder?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:48 PM

It would be difficult to assess whether there would be any benefit from a name change - other than helping (maybe) with the begging bowl.
The cost of implementing the change would be the first thing to put in a grant application for!
I am still waiting for a reply from either the treasurer or the membership department - obviously busy?
As I predicted no one from the Society has reacted to this thread.
Hey Ho

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 10 Jan 22 - 08:56 PM

Seems I have become persona non grata yet again

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 02:28 AM

apply for membership don't do a Djokovic

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 06:15 AM

Quoting from another thread:
"In England there isn't even the desire for a sense of national identity which makes the Scots, Irish and Welsh at least recognise and acknowledge their traditional music even if they don't choose to listen to it for pleasure. The English have ignored their own traditional music heritage, and are embarrassed by it when it comes to their attention."
Would EFDSS's proposed name change help or hinder?

That was in the context of attitudes towards folk music. The majority of English people have forgotten their folk traditions, and unlike the other nations of these islands don't feel these form part of their cultural identity or that they need to be maintained for that reason. The proposed name change will neither help nor hinder this, since for the majority it is a complete irrelevance. Most people neither know nor care that EFDSS even exists and have no interest in anything it does. Calling it "Folk Arts" won't change that.

So who should it matter to? The EFDSS's justification is that this is to include those of other backgrounds who, although born and brought up here, don't feel themselves to be English. However it has offered no evidence that they would feel any differently about English folk music if the name of the organisation were changed. It feels as if it is being done simply to tick a 'diversity' box.

Secondly there are the funding bodies and other arts organisations EFDSS works with. The EFDSS hasn't mentioned them so we don't know their points of view. It is very possible that they will want to see the diversity box ticked, whether or not this actually achieves anything. This might actually be the best reason for a name change, if it would help to secure future funding, but it is not one the EFDSS has put forward.

Thirdly there are all those involved in folk music who the EFDSS claims to represent, although it is difficult to see on what authority they can do this, given the tiny membership. I suspect that many of them see "English" as actually being quite important, but I guess the consultation will show if this is the case.

There's still no sign of the EFDSS engaging in any debate, despite the number of comments on its own Facebook page, for example.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 06:18 AM

Ray
I do have membership - it just keeps making me log in about once a month which is obviously a pain. I don't know if others have this problem.
Unlike Djokovic (kick him out Oz) I am fully vaccinated and boostered thank you.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 09:23 AM

I suspect it's your computer that makes you log in after an update. I tend not to notice, till I see my posts come up as Guest

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 09:42 AM

Somewhere, there' a browser setting, where you tell it to delete cookies upon logout, or keep them.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 04:41 AM

You lose membership if you change your virus protection settings or some such change ~ I lose my membership that way, ease to get it back Malcolm

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 09:04 AM

I repeatedly tell microsoft not to do any updates - do they listen - the hell they do!!
But thanks for your comprehensive advice Ray.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 10:49 AM

The consultation has been extended to 14 February. So far it still seems to be open only to members, although they have promised they will open it to others at some point.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 01 Mar 22 - 06:46 PM

I was happily remembering songs I used to sing - it's not illegal - yet - and the Seeds of Love came to mind.
Cecil Sharp blamed this song for his involvement and large part in bringing about the English Folk Dance & Song Society.
Sharp collected the song from one John England - how very apt!
If the current clowns at the society have their way then by definition Sharp's source must become John / Johann / Jean / etc etc Everyman in order not to offend anyone!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 02:51 AM

Malcolm Storey or Malcolm étage
how about Jean Angleterre, that neatly circumvents the problem

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 07:15 AM

This has all gone a bit quiet. I think the members' consultation has now closed, but there's no sign yet of the promised consultation with non-members.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 07:36 AM

Dick - I think Angleterre would be far too English for some offended parties.
Incidentally on the 18:30 comedy slot on BBC Radio yesterday there was a sketch about people being offended at not being offended and discussing ways to correct the problem - amusing but alarmingly accurate.

Howard - I should not hold your breath on that one.
Even when I was vice chairman of the society I still had to wade through evasive tactics. I was once asked to stop asking the then treasurer awkward questions!
He was a fairly high up in the Bank of England so knew little about real life - nice chap though.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 01:37 AM

New "EDS" magazine received and no decision yet reached on future name or change ~

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 03:13 AM

it is in my opinion about "is it important to change the name,
EFDSS in my opinion should be promoting itself and its insurance scheme to get young people to organise festivals. As a festival organiser my experience is that it is good to start with one day festivals. Young people have to be encouraged to organise festivals, if they do not there will be nowhere for them to play. Instead of giving out gold badges Encourage young members to organise festival with a subsidy

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 03:35 AM

In my opinion, one really positive fact about the Society is the insurance scheme for members organising events, promote this to young pro and semi pro performers to emncourage them to organise events.
The PROPOSED name change is OF the ilk of Don Quixote, the famous tilter at windmills

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Guest Anon
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 03:57 AM

It reminds me of a parody of the carter family song Gold Watch and Chain
Oh, I'll pledge you, my gold badge and name love
And I'll pledge you, my gold wedding ring
I will pledge you, this heart in my bosom
Only say that you'll love me again
Darling, how could I stay here without you?
I have nothing to ease my poor heart
This whole world would seem sad, love, without you
Tell me now that we never will part
Oh, I'll pledge you, my gold badge andname love
And I'll pledge you, my gold wedding ring
I will pledge you, this heart in my bosom
Only say that you'll love me again
Take back all the gifts you have given
A diamond ring and a lock of your hair
And a card with your picture upon it
It's a face that is false, but it's fair
Oh, I'll pledge you, my gold badge and name love
And I'll pledge you, my gold wedding ring
I will pawn you, this heart in my bosom
Only say that you'll love me again
Oh, the white rose that blooms in the garden
It grows with the love of my heart
It broke through on the day that I met you
It will die on the day that we part
Oh, I'll pledge you, my gold badge and name love
And I'll pledge you, my gold wedding ring
I will pledge you, this heart in my bosom
Only say that you'll love me again
Only say that you'll love me again

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,guest anon
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 04:11 AM

or
"Here's your gold badge and the shackles for your brain
And your piece of paper to say you left here sane"
"And if you've a son who wants a good career
Just get him to sign on the dotted line and play for fifty years"
He asked me how many jobs I'd had before
He nearly had a heart attack when I answered, "Four"
"Four jobs in twenty years, oh, this can never be"
"We only take on men who play until they die"
"Here's your gold badge and the shackles for your brain
And your piece of paper to say you left here sane"
"And if you've a son who wants a good career
Just get him to sign on the dotted line and work for fifty years"
He took me to SharpHouse to where the gravestones stand in line
"This is where we bury them, in quick-stone and in lime"
"And if you come to play for us, on this you must agree
That if you're going to die, please, do it while on stage"
"Here's your gold badge and the shackles for your brain
And your piece of paper to say you left here sane"
"And if you've a son who wants a good career
Just get him to sign on the dotted line and play for fifty years"
This story that you heard you may think rather queer
But it is the truth you'll be surprised to hear
I did not want no job upon the board
I just wanted to play a guitar and take the bloody floor
"Here's your gold watch and the shackles for your chain
And your piece of paper to say you left here sane"
"And if you've a son who wants a good career
Just get him to sign on the dotted line and play for fifty years"

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 07:34 AM

Less than 700 responses from members according to EDS!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 08:11 AM

Fewer

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 09:18 AM

700 is about a third of the membership so actually not a bad percentage given that the thing was meaningless and could only point to one conclusion.
What is really needed is an accurate assessment of the true cost of not only changing the name but also the articles etc.
Lawyers don't come cheap or cheep - not even in nightingale courts.
Any decision should be based on facts.
Not seen a lot of those floating about.
The society is still a members society even though some of the officers would appear to prefer it not to be.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 09:22 AM

So should there be greater effort to promote financially and activity wise the song side as opposed to the dance side?

Songs ~ festivals, folk clubs, research and workshops and contemporary song writing

Dance ~ from morris, sword, social dance, clog etc

The activities are wide ranging and a great deal of private venture already exists

What should EFDSS focus its attentions on ?

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Guest nom de plume
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 12:01 PM

EFDSS should focus its attentions on promoting both equally, they can do this by providing subsidies for young people to promote festivals in either dance or song or both

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 12:50 PM

Guest, I agree it would be good to see EFDSS doing more to support the grass roots. However there is hardly a scarcity of folk festivals. The UK Folk Festivals website lists 139 festivals in England this year, 37 in Scotland, 18 in Wales and 18 in Ireland. This is probably far from complete - I know of a few (admittedly small and eclectic) events which are not shown.

Nevertheless you have a point about the insurance. EFDSS provides this as a benefit to members, but not only does it do little to publicise this, it does nothing to raise awareness that this is something event organisers should consider.

I get the impression it is not really interested in attracting members (its membership is tiny, at around 2200). It seems to function quite happily as an arts body channelling third-party funding into whatever activities the trustees and staff consider suitable. I see no evidence that they are much interested in what the membership thinks - this consultation is very much an exception.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Guest Anon
Date: 15 Mar 22 - 08:57 AM

There is a scarcity of young people running folk festivals and folk clubs, by publicising it to young people and encouraging young people with grants there is a possibilty young people may take over as organisers it is called financial incentive, but it needs to be publicised efficently

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: treewind
Date: 15 Mar 22 - 03:51 PM

"Folk Arts will always be abbreviated, portmanteaued, pesudonymed - talk "about coonotations!"

Not to mention parodied. I'll be calling them "Woke Arts England".

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Mar 22 - 01:01 AM

oh WARTS and FARTS ~ leave well alone

Ray

Long live EFdus

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 22 - 05:54 PM

EFDSS for the London luvvies get did of it and it’s so called reincarnation it hates the north

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,another guest
Date: 11 Apr 22 - 06:12 PM

It not only hates the north(?) it just hates the membership.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 08:57 AM

I have found it useful. I am using their insurance

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 04:45 PM

Would that be for an event in Ireland ? Are you sure that will work in event of a claim ? Just curious.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 04:51 PM

Yes.I have read it thoroughly