EFDSS proposed name change

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 05:04 AM

Steve ... to be fair, The Full English does appear on the VWML website, here: www.vwml.org/projects Some digitisation (Take 6) appeared before The Full English, and some (Carpenter collection, I think) appeared after the project. Some of the resources that were digitised as part of TFE have not yet been placed online, sadly...
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 06:13 PM

I went to the very first and many of the subsequent meetings of EFDSS and I found that it was a pleasant get together of musicians playing tunes and singing songs that formed friendships that have lasted a lifetime. From those early days many of us have branched into other types of music and there has been a cross over of styles , but I have never been approached by anyone to say "Excuse me this is not English". I must admit to running the first Euro Session at an EFDSS meeting and it was a full house and others have introduced these sessions to other festivals. In no way would I want to lose the English Traditional music that started me off in the folk Scene, but if rules " Only English music playing " were enforced and or other rules then it would spoil all of what has been achieved since this organisation started. My vote would be to leave it exactly as it is with the flexibility that we have all enjoyed.
Al

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:40 AM

Nicely put, Howard.

Derek, I too was very happy with the title 'Full English'. Again it did what it said on the tin. Then all of a sudden when a new batch of manuscripts/broadsides came online which I was involved in they decided 'The Full English' was to be dropped, after successfully marketing it. I couldn't tell you what it is now called. Not even sure if the organisers know. VWML Online? is not quite the business, if that's what it is. However, a magnificent resource.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:37 AM

Can't disagree with you there Howard.
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:01 AM

I'm happy to be corrected on that, Derek. I don't think it alters my underlying point, which was that having staff members and trustees who are familiar with the workings of the mainstream arts world has probably helped the Society to tap into sources of funding such as this, where you have to speak the language and tick the right boxes to be successful. I'm happy to give them credit for that. At the same time, I find it regrettable that in trying to bring folk into that (largely professional) arts world they seem to be neglecting the amateur grass-roots which have always been at the core of folk.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 06:28 AM

I've been lurking! Reading almost all of these posts on a daily basis. There have been some good posts, and in particular I would commend the re-reading of posts by Howard Jones on 30 December 2.28 and 2.54. On 1 Jan 5.22 (but see below) and 3 Jan at 10.03. He seems to have got the measure of it. Just one minor correction. The Full English was funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund, not the Arts Council. HLF thought The Full English title of the project was excellent.
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 05:35 AM

Good post by Steve Gardham 04 Jan 22 - 04:03 PM I find myself in agreement with it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 04:08 AM

Whatever you think about the name, as an exercise in democracy this is pretty poor.

As I've said before, the consultation seems to be slanted to support a decision which has already been made. Not only is there no opportunity to vote on the suggested names, the questions about "Englishness" (which seems to underlie the reasons for the change) don't seem to refer to it in the relevant context.

This sort of approach to "consultation" is not unusual, but it is disappointing.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 04:03 PM

Changing the name of a long-established organisation is always going to be problematic. I wonder how many of us long-standing members (no cracks please!) have actually thought for one second that the name needed changing. I do hope they consider all the pitfalls before making any changes. I filled in my form and voted for no change on the grounds that I could not think of a good reason for doing so. If it does what it says on the tin leave it alone. If I'm discussing with folkies I'll say Effdus. If with non folkies I'll use the full title happily. All an improvement on the 'Dingdong Society' which we used disparagingly in the 70s.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 01:47 PM

The discussion is continued of fb ~ hope I haven't offended anyone by pinching posts

I have come to the conclusion that EFDSS is the only option ~ it is in my mind like a Professional body for all outside of London ~ major asset is VWML

Folk Arts England says nothing and totally disregards the goodwill built up over the years of its existence and joining with folk song and dance societies

Ray

What the EFDSS has planned in the future is the most important factor ~leave the name alone, please!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 11:51 AM

Very Poor

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 11:43 AM

Getting back to the topic, I've just filled in the EFDSS form. To my amazement, when I got to the page discussing the various alternative names (including retaining EFDSS), there was no opportunity to express a preference - just a list of the most popular names as voted for by a panel of 65 persons the selection criteria for which was not explained. Whatever you think about the name, as an exercise in democracy this is pretty poor.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 11:23 AM

'GUEST,28 Dec 21 - 09:18 AM - PM'

A bit of a cumbersome moniker, 'Guest...'. Most of us here find our actual names more convenient. However...

'Was something like re-enactment what the founders had in mind?'

Clearly not, if Cecil Sharp's piano arrangements are anything to go by. 'In their original forms' was presumably meant to refer to the core material, rather than forbidding contemporary arrangements of it; some would say that the core material was being altered as well, though I'd say the second Revival did far more of that than the first.

There is, however, a potential contradiction between the 'original forms' clause and the emphasis on 'new work' apparently demanded by arts funding organisations. That doesn't mean that new work shouldn't be encouraged, but there remains a question of the extent to which it should be expected to conform to the musical conventions of the 'original forms', and by what criteria conformity should be judged.

In a recent discussion of 'authenticity' I asked whether we should regard as 'more authentic' the Copper Family's rendition of 'Shepherd of the Downs', or a pleasure garden re-enactment orchestra performing 'The Shepherd Adonis' - the song's original form. Answer came there none.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 08:18 AM

‘The English Folk Dance and Song Society’ is cumbersome and is usually shortened to the acronym EFDSS — meaningless to the vast majority of the population, and even to many people who already enjoy folk music and dance.
"There is incontrovertible evidence that many people feel excluded by the word ‘English’.
‘Dance and Song’ neglects our significant activities on music.
To many, ‘Society’ suggests an inward-looking and reactionary bureaucracy.
In summary, the name is no longer appropriate for the organisation’s multi-faceted activities as the national champion of the folk music and dance of England.
It would be easy to keep the status quo. But our Aims and Objectives include an undertaking to ‘celebrate diversity and promote equality’. We must now consider a change of name if we are to fulfil our essential ambitions of widening the appeal of the folk music, dance, customs and traditions of England.

The Board consider Folk Arts England to be an appropriate name."

What do you reckon? Looks like the consultation is over Jan 5th ~ so back to basket weaving then??

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 02:54 AM

"I'm not aware of anything EFDSS is currently doing which could be said to clearly fall outside its charitable objects, neither am I aware of any intention to change the charitable objects. At the moment it seems to be just the name itself. However I am struggling to understand how it can promote English folk if the term "English" is to be eradicated."

No change to the name is needed in my view ~~~

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 12:31 PM

you cannot promote English Folk if the name is dropped.
Why not call it the anything goes dance and song society

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 10:03 AM

The charitable objects are worded in fairly broad terms, and I don't think the wording Guest quotes means EFDSS is meant to encourage performance only in its original forms, or that it prevents EFDSS from promoting other interpretations. If the Trustees felt that the objects were too restrictive they could change them, and indeed charities are encouraged to review their objects from time to time to ensure they remain relevant. As long as the revised objects still fulfil a charitable purpose there should be no difficulty changing them. What emphasis a charity puts on different elements of the objects is entirely a matter for the trustees.

I'm not aware of anything EFDSS is currently doing which could be said to clearly fall outside its charitable objects, neither am I aware of any intention to change the charitable objects. At the moment it seems to be just the name itself. However I am struggling to understand how it can promote English folk if the term "English" is to be eradicated.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21 - 09:18 AM
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 09:06 AM

(I quoted the objects and last Guest was me)

"there is undoubtedly an identifiable English tradition which it is the purpose of the EFDSS to uphold." (Howard Jones).

Yes, but being picky about the "objects" "...AND TO ENCOURAGE THE PRACTICE OF THEM IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORMS" could suggest something more like reenactment, which term came up above or on the adjacent 'folk a dirty word' thread.

Was something like re-enactment what the founders had in mind? Or do they mean something more like practice in modern day equivalents of their original context. So rather than singing in the cart on the way back from the fair it might be on the bus on the way back from the match. Or is a folk club, or a pub session, the descendant of the cart from the fair? Either way you might get Buddy Holly instead of the latest broadside or something from the pleasure garden.

'Folk Arts' could be a short form of "FOLK DANCES, SONGS AND MUSIC, TALES AND DRAMA". But is it Folk Arts of now or of the past?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 06:42 AM

Mr Red, the discussion arose because of the question whether the dropping of the word "English" might also imply a move from promoting English folk music to promoting all "folk arts" in England of any origin. Whilst English folk music does not exist in a vacuum and some songs, dances and tunes may have originated elsewhere, there are as Brian says distinctive styles which are recognisably English. Whilst I agree that too much discussion about what is meant by "English folk" may be a distraction, there is undoubtedly an identifiable English tradition which it is the purpose of the EFDSS to uphold.

Ray, the whole point of the proposed name change is because the term "English" has indeed apparently become taboo in some quarters. As you say, gawd 'elp us!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 02:58 AM

"** "it" being the use of the word English in EFDSS's charitable objects."

I really do hope that the word "English" is not now a taboo name that is no longer acceptable and needs to change ~ gawd 'elp us!

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 05:45 PM

Let us not fall into the trap. All Folk songs were written. And not all authors were A. Non. in centuries past (pick a number, any number)

And not all dances (or dance tunes) we dance to are from the EDM (pick a year, any year), some are er... um... modern & credited.

The message is: we are moulded by the times, and to quote some relatively modern Folk plagiarist "The times they are a-changing". EFDSS has to change with them.

The whole question of what form the changes take is not the subject of the thread. The subject is a name change and riding on the back of that is how it will be perceived by the disinterested public. Its a marketing exercise - for a cohort who are largely, by definition, not interested in commerce.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 01:33 PM

'I have noticed in music sessions, tunes that I think of as English cropping up from Sweden, or Wales.'

No argument there, Mo. I remember 20-odd years ago being thrilled to hear a Danish band playing a tune I knew from Bob Cann as 'Double Quadrille' but which they'd got from their local tradition. The old English village tunebooks often have a few tunes with French titles, and there's certainly overlap with Northern Europe, Wales, and especially Scotland. But I would still argue that there is a recognizably English dance music repertoire, and style of playing it (like when Tex-Mex accordionists play 'The Beer Barrel' polka). The same is true even more for English songs.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 12:28 PM

So EFDSS will be happy with the dance participation for all using largely established dance tunes and others which are fit for purpose and of course whatever classification of dance ~ traditional sword and couples etc

Now songs are and have "traditionally" been just that, however defined but this is now being augmented by new songs either using existing tunes as was the way in the broadside ballads and professionals are also using and creating "new" folk songs and are reviving existing traditional songs by creating new tunes and versions and indeed new songs "in the tradition" If you are still following me

So it seems to me that the future for funding may also be following the "new" song pathway ~ PRS and copyright issues may also be a reason for this trend

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 12:16 PM

"You can read it** any which way you want. The exercise of a name change is to inculcate something meaningful to the wider public! And good luck with that."

** "it" being the use of the word English in EFDSS's charitable objects.

No, we can't read it any way we wish. We should read it how the charitable objects would be read under UK charity law. EFDSS isn't just any old non-profit that simply change itself to suite the views of it's current officers and members. It's a long-standing UK charity with considerable assets, some of which it may not have gained had it not been a registered charity.

The 'objects' can be changed to move with the times, but I think you will find there is a very formal process for coming to an agreement as to "what the EFDSS is for". The current exercise may be part of that.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 07:11 AM

Funny old world. The was a time when things )sport etc) were divided into Professionals and Gentlemen, with the pros regarded as servants (like a ceilidh band at a wedding still sometimes are). Now there are Professionals and Amateurs with amateurs sometimes looked down on, though their skills can be high.
I see your point Howard. I'm just rambling at a tangent.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 05:22 AM

Mo, the folk scene is built around participation and many professional folk performers are very generous with their time and advice. This was not what my comment was referring to.

The mainstream arts world has tended to focus on supporting the professional arts. Whereas a considerable amount of public funding is available to encourage participation in sport, the same doesn't seem to be true of the arts. Whilst there are some signs that this is changing, it is still limited. I note that whilst funding is to be made available to community groups to develop creative and cultural activities as part of the Queen’s Platinum Jubilee celebrations later this year, they are expected to engage with Arts Council approved 'creatives', so really this is just disguised support for professionals.

EFDSS clearly wants to be taken seriously in this world. Its emphasis on professional artist development, education, crossover projects and the development of new work (rather than folk in its original forms) all seems aimed to tick the required boxes. In fairness, knowing how to engage with the arts establishment has enabled it to secure the Arts Council funding for the Full English project, so credit where due. I have no objection to it doing any of this work, provided it does not mean that the grass-roots participatory side of folk is not even more neglected than it is at present.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:55 PM

English Dance Forget Folk Song

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:22 PM

An emailshot from EFDSS about events coming up in the New Year refers at one point to "EDFFS". Merely a typo or yet another possible name?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 08:42 AM

Some of the professional performers are very generous in encouraging participations at all levels.
E.g. at my favourite week of the year, in Whitby.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 08:39 AM

Brian, my "Was there ever such a thing as 'English' Folk" was a question rather than a statement.
I know more about dance than song, though I have noticed in music sessions, tunes that I think of as English cropping up from Sweden, or Wales.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 06:39 AM

Like Ray, I fully agree with Howard about consumption versus participation.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 05:04 AM

English Music and Periferal Activity for Today's Youth (EMPATHY)?

Robin

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:39 AM

"What worries me about this is that the arts establishment has always given the impression that arts should be left in the hands of the professionals for the rest of us to consume, rather than be encouraged to participate ourselves. That is the opposite of what folk music is, and what EFDSS should be for."

Important statement in my view!

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:04 AM

But I read 'English' as being used in a geographic ethnomusicological sense, as if maybe it stems for Sharpe's 'English national music' ideas.

You can read it any which way you want. The exercise of a name change is to inculcate something meaningful to the wider public! And good luck with that.

Anyone remember the advert for Strand cigarettes? Powerful, well crafted with haunting music, everyone noticed it. And they missed the one thing that the buying public reacted to. That to fetch out a packet correlated with being a lonely middle-aged git. Correlation ain't causation, sure - tell that to the wider public.

And bar-room jocularity is your clue folks.

An acronym like F.A.M.E.D would go a long way, anyone care to fill in the gaps............

Folk A____ Music E______ Dance (Endeavour perhaps)

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:01 PM

but then they arose in an environment of geographical and racial mixing, which (again historically) isn't true of most of the repertoire in England. quote Brian Peters
Interesting.. The Bonny labouring Boy source Harry Cox was learned fron an Itinerant Irish Labourer,
Also some of the fishing songs [not shanties]were learned because of travelling fishermen between Scotland Ireland England

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:54 PM

I agree with Brian, and especially his final paragraph. I can't shake of a feeling that at least part of the motivation for this is a desire to fit in with the mainstream arts world, and that the current name is seen as a bit of an embarrassment. I also wonder whether that is where the perceived barriers lie, rather than among people who actually might want to get involved.

What worries me about this is that the arts establishment has always given the impression that arts should be left in the hands of the professionals for the rest of us to consume, rather than be encouraged to participate ourselves. That is the opposite of what folk music is, and what EFDSS should be for.

The other thing that worries me is that the 'consultation' seems to have been designed to justify a decision which has already been made. No one from the EFDSS seems to be willing to engage in the debate.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:28 PM

In response to my statement "It was necessary to show how the grant would be used attract disadvantaged people" 'Guest' responded "Maybe that was something to do with how they got the funds"

Quite possibly. Diversity and inclusion are a big issue these days, and is clearly a priority for EFDSS. Quite rightly - I entirely support the principle. However it was the timing that was inappropriate - we were just emerging from lockdown and activities were resuming but many people were still strangely reluctant to get close to and be breathed on by a group of strangers.

We were trying to put on an event with no certainty that anyone would turn up (in normal times we could expect up to 80 or 100). Our concerns were people's safety and the potential for a substantial financial loss. Assistance with covid security measures and an underwriting of any financial loss might have helped. In more normal times we might have gladly considered ways to help more disadvantaged people to attend our events, for example by being able to offer concessions, but it was not what we needed to focus on at the time.

The offer was well-intended to address a real need to get people dancing again, but the conditions and language used did not to me seem to understand the circumstances facing small unfunded volunteer-led community groups. I hope some groups were able to take advantage of it, but we were put off by it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 01:36 PM

Wot Brian said! Fully endorsed.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Brian Peters
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 01:24 PM

I'm surprised that a couple of comments by Mo the Caller haven't received more comment.

'So many folk tunes crop up almost the same from different parts of Europe... Was there ever such a thing as 'English Folk'?

And, regarding 'Folk Song in England', that 'it contains folk songs sung in England' as opposed to 'English folk songs'.

There is certainly some overlap between historic English and European dance music repertoire, and there are the parallels F. J. Child recognized between Anglo-Scottish and European ballads and folk tales, but I know of no evidence that the English folk song repertoire closely resembles a comparable repertoire on the continent, even if we discount the obvious language barrier. Are tunes from, say, the 'Dives and Lazarus' family widespread throughout Europe? Perhaps they are - please enlighten me.

There is much more overlap in terms of folk song and dance music between England, Scotland and Ireland, but are you suggesting no distinction can be drawn between those repertoires and styles? You might encounter some objections from across the border, or the Irish Sea...

Both books titled 'Folk Song in England' - Lloyd/RVW and Roud/Bishop - are based on a repertoire of songs written mostly by mostly anonymous but almost certainly English composers, and passed down generationally in England. Shanties are definitely a multi-cultural phenomenon, but then they arose in an environment of geographical and racial mixing, which (again historically) isn't true of most of the repertoire in England.

Where we go from here is another matter. Nick Griffin's unwelcome attentions aside, nationalism has played no prominent role in English folk music since the days of Cecil Sharp. I'm fine with EFDSS involving itself with more diverse acts, and nor do I have a stonewall preference for 'English' over 'of England' - even though I doubt whether such a fine adjustment in terminology will actually attract anyone who wasn't attracted before. 'Folk Arts', to me doesn't adequately describe what EFDSS does, nor what I'm interested in, and this all looks to me like a rebranding exercise aimed simply at disposing of a name some of those involved find cumbersome and anachronistic.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 01:10 PM

There is no excuse for not trying if one has the ability.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 12:42 PM

"It was necessary to show how the grant would be used attract disadvantaged people"

Maybe that was something to do with how they got the funds

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 12:28 PM

I'm sure the EFDSS does give financial support to some organisations, although it is far from clear what it does or who benefits. It is one of several organisations shown as supporters of Soundpost, for example, although what this involves is not clear.

It also offers bursaries to developing artists and supports a number of specific projects, which are shown on its website.

In my experience it doesn't offer much support, financial or otherwise, to small grass-roots organisations. When I tried to contact it with a query about GDPR (which would affect any folk club with a membership list) I was ignored. Other organisations I am involved with provide extensive resources to assist club committee members, EFDSS provides next to nothing, and what there is can be difficult to find.

It recently offered micro-grants to dance clubs to get re-started post-Covid, but the "artspeak" language used in the application form suggested you would need to be familiar with making grant applications and the appropriate formulations in order to be successful. It was necessary to show how the grant would be used attract disadvantaged people - a worthy objective but not a priority at a time when it was difficult to attract anyone, and when holding an event at all was highly uncertain and with considerable financial risk. Presumably some clubs were successful, but my own was put off from even applying by the language and conditions attached.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 11:01 AM

EFDSS does seem to run and support activities largely at Cecil Sharp House (in normal times)

Was and I am surprised to see that Halsway Manor is also a separate concern though no doubt encouraged by EFDSS ~ wrong again?

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 10:55 AM

Thanks again Howard Jones ~ this puts me straight of course ~ and EFDSS in a different light

Does The Society not offer certain grants to specific organisations?

and yes I do know of VWML but I am, as I said earlier unlikely to make that particular trip!

Name change is even more of a low priority and the accent on its core activities much more important ~ BUT maybe I have the cart before the horse with EFDSS perceived as simply an organisation to provide expertise and advice to established groups?

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21 - 09:22 AM
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:55 AM

Soundpost looks good. I see EFDSS is one of several sponsors. Digging around led me to this: https://www.efdss.org/images/present/Docs/Library/DiversityConference2021ProgrammeWWW.pdf

which seemed to touch on many aspects relevant to this discussion. For example I think many would regard shanties as part of 'English folk music' but, as discussed in great detail on mudcat at times, it's really not that simple.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:42 AM

"EFDSS can and does do a fine job in promoting its aims and objectives"

Maybe, but what it promotes seems to be concentrated in a few niche areas, and with a strong London bias. Do you have examples of events or activities away from London which are run by EFDSS (and not by local organisations such as Soundpost).

"perhaps was and still is a leader in English folk dance"

I'm not sure what you mean by "leader". As I see it, social dance and ceilidh are in the hands of local clubs. These may be affiliated members of EFDSS for the insurance, but speaking as an organiser of one I can say that they provide them with very little support. When I have asked EFDSS for advice they have either been unable to help or have ignored me.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:26 AM

Soundpost does excellent work, but it is an independent community arts organisation run by a number of musicians from the Sheffield folk community. Nothing to do with EFDSS.

https://soundpost.org.uk/about

It is just one of many local organisations which have stepped into the breach since EFDSS closed its regional branches.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:16 AM

Interesting stuff from Howard ~and yes "folk" music and dance and song has existed largely in parallel with the world of EFDSS whatever that does encompass for many years and no doubt has its own merit and following

EFDSS can and does do a fine job in promoting its aims and objectives and perhaps was and still is a leader in English folk dance and its events certainly around Sheffield such as "Sound post" and other workshop events ~ it seems to be very active in encouraging the young people in folk activities ~ and good luck to them

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 06:26 AM

Mo, I am not suggesting that English folk exists in a vacuum. It shares much of its repertoire with the rest of the UK and Ireland, as well as taking influences from elsewhere. Nevertheless that does not mean there is no such thing as English folk music. It has its own distinctive styles, even when performing music which may have originated elswhere.

Neither am I opposed to EFDSS encouraging cross-over collaborations. I don't believe folk music should be preserved in aspic, it should be explored and enjoyed. I am certainly guilty of "taking liberties" with it: my band's version of the Rochdale Coconut Dance was described as "starts in Lancashire and moves ever rapidly eastwards, finishing somewhere near Chicago" although one reviewer said "I reckon it's more like New Orleans". However you should always keep in mind the core tradition. I can't help feeling that EFDSS is a little too keen to promote these collaborations and doesn't do enough to encourage the performance of basic English folk.

However there is a difference between music from elsewhere being assimilated into English traditions and English styles of performance, and the folk music of the other immigrant cultures who are now part of our society which are now performed in England. I am not for a moment suggesting this music is of any less value, or that those communities should not be regarded as English or British, simply that is not what the term "English folk music" means. I question whether it is EFDSS's role to promote this music as well, and whether those communities would actually want it to.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:59 AM

John, with respect you seem to have misunderstood my point. No doubt Comhaltas can be criticised for many things. What it is unlikely to be criticised for is not being "diverse" enought because it does not encourage the playing of music from other traditions. It is understood and accepted that its purpose is to encourage traditional Irish music (how well it does this is not the point here).

It is this quest for "diversity" that I fear is behind the proposed name change. I have a sense that the very idea of focussing on "Englishness" is seen as exclusionary and therefore suspect, whereas a minority community focussing on its own culture would be encouraged. I think it is entirely proper that there should be an organisation dedicated to the promotion and preservation of English folk music, and it should not flinch from saying that is what it does.