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What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?

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Dita 01 May 01 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,Pete Peterson 01 May 01 - 04:24 PM
Kim C 01 May 01 - 04:30 PM
Tedham Porterhouse 01 May 01 - 04:33 PM
Justa Picker 01 May 01 - 04:33 PM
Clinton Hammond 01 May 01 - 05:11 PM
Bert 01 May 01 - 05:30 PM
Dita 01 May 01 - 05:31 PM
Clinton Hammond 01 May 01 - 05:37 PM
Dita 01 May 01 - 05:50 PM
Dita 01 May 01 - 05:50 PM
Bill D 01 May 01 - 06:15 PM
Little Hawk 01 May 01 - 06:41 PM
BanjoRay 01 May 01 - 07:32 PM
Little Hawk 01 May 01 - 07:34 PM
Bert 01 May 01 - 09:25 PM
catspaw49 01 May 01 - 10:00 PM
rangeroger 01 May 01 - 10:30 PM
Blackcatter 02 May 01 - 01:37 AM
GUEST 02 May 01 - 06:46 AM
Suffet 02 May 01 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,Pete Peterson 02 May 01 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,Pete Peterson 02 May 01 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,petr 02 May 01 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,petr 02 May 01 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,petr 02 May 01 - 04:19 PM
mousethief 02 May 01 - 05:15 PM
Burke 02 May 01 - 06:20 PM
Little Hawk 03 May 01 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,Steve N. 03 May 01 - 02:29 PM
Little Hawk 03 May 01 - 07:12 PM
catspaw49 03 May 01 - 07:29 PM
Sorcha 03 May 01 - 07:58 PM
Little Hawk 04 May 01 - 05:57 PM
Peter T. 04 May 01 - 06:30 PM
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Subject: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Dita
Date: 01 May 01 - 04:13 PM

A few years ago, while reading a book on genetics, I encountered the following statement-

"All known cases of Huntington's Disease (chorea)in the United States can be traced back to one person who travelled over in the Mayflower. If he had been advised not to have children, then the disease would have been eradicated from the USA".

If this statement is correct, if he had been so advised and had headed the advice, no Woody, no Arlo.

Certainly the quality of my life would have been much deminished if they had not existed, indeed I wonder if I would ever have discovered the traditional folk music of Scotland if Woody had not gone before, and influenced all the folks who influenced me.

lovr, john


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 01 May 01 - 04:24 PM

Congratulations, you're a science fiction writer! One of the subgenres is Alternate History. . . what if a given historical event had turned out diffently? (Midwife to Anne Boleyn: "It's a boy!" Midwife to Mary: "It's a girl.")THEN, how would SUBSEQUENT events be different?
I can't imagine folk music as it exists today without Woody. . . quite aside from the songs he wrote, he encouraged Pete Seeger to drop out of Harvard and go out on the road with him. . . . I'm glad we live in the universe that had Woody in it. Toward the end of the joe Klein biography he does some speculation of his own of how the disease helped Woody's synapses slip and spark a little differently from "ordinary" people. . . not sure I agree but one wonders. . . I find myself slipping into Dr. Pangloss' belief that this is the best of all possible worlds.


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Kim C
Date: 01 May 01 - 04:30 PM

Mister and I saw Arlo in concert several years ago. Now, me having come of age in the 80s, I didn't know a lot about him except for Alice's Restaurant, which I always thought was a hoot.

I have never seen anyone have so much fun on stage. It was a great show. Very laid-back, like having Arlo in your living room. And he seems like the kind of person who really would come to your house if you invited him.

'Course, if there had been no Woody, I never would have been forced to sing "This Land is Your Land" in the first grade.... ;-)


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 01 May 01 - 04:33 PM

Pete Peterson,

Not to sound picky, but Pete Seeger dropped out of Harvard two or three years before he met Woody.


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 01 May 01 - 04:33 PM

Then Bob Dylan as we knew him in the 60's would have ceased to exist as well (musically.)


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 May 01 - 05:11 PM

I doubt anyone has ever had THAT much influence on anything... if Joe Mayflower hadn'ta brought Huntingtons over, somebody else certainly would have...

In a world where Woody Guthrie never existed, Woody Guthrie can't possibly be missed!


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Bert
Date: 01 May 01 - 05:30 PM

What if England had sent Wellington instead of Packenham?


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Dita
Date: 01 May 01 - 05:31 PM

Clinton, the book stated that all known cases were traceable to the one genetic line (that was the whole point of the post). It does not exist outwith this set of genes. No Joe Mayflower, no Woody.
I know I wouldn't have been aware I missed him but, I'm not egotistical enough to think it wouldnt have changed me.
love, john.


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 May 01 - 05:37 PM

Do you happen to remember what the book was called? 'Cause it sounds spurious to me... it's not like Joe Mayflower (nice name eh! LOL!!) was the first guy to have Huntingtons right?

or maybe he was...

Now I'm even more curious...

;-)


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Dita
Date: 01 May 01 - 05:50 PM

No Clinton, I don't recall offhand what it was called because it was a number of years ago that I encountered it. I was writing an essay on alpha feto protein screening. As I did not have a forum such as Mudcat to share my thoughts with at the time, they had to be private between me and my examiner (I got an A). However the concept of what the consequences of the suggestion, which the author of the book obviously presumed to be the correct course of action, has haunted me ever since. I wonderwd what would Woody's choice have been.
love, john


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Dita
Date: 01 May 01 - 05:50 PM

No Clinton, I don't recall offhand what it was called because it was a number of years ago that I encountered it. I was writing an essay on alpha feto protein screening. As I did not have a forum such as Mudcat to share my thoughts with at the time, they had to be private between me and my examiner (I got an A). However the concept of what the consequences of the suggestion, which the author of the book obviously presumed to be the correct course of action, has haunted me ever since. I wonderwd what would Woody's choice have been.
love, john


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 May 01 - 06:15 PM

without Woody, we'd have to sing

"Go for a ride in the bus, bus
Go for a ride in the bus...."

and the Ladies Auxilary wouldn't have such a meaningful theme song.


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 01 - 06:41 PM

Bob Dylan would probably still have been heard from, but he would have been a lot different, that's for sure! Woody was a difficult guy to live with, but he made an immense contribution to folk music.

Anybody seen Arlo lately? He looks like the old man of the mountains with all that white hair.

- LH


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 01 May 01 - 07:32 PM

Bert asked What if England had sent Wellington instead of Packenham? weeell - he probably wouldn't have been around for the battle of Waterloo, and Napoleon would have won - consequently the USA would now be a French colony! Merde alors!!

Cheers
Ray


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 01 - 07:34 PM

Naw...if Napoleon had won that one, he would have lost the next...or the next after that. His time was running out.

- LH


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Bert
Date: 01 May 01 - 09:25 PM

Oh I dunno, I think he could have made it back by 1815 after winning over here.


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 01 - 10:00 PM

Pete nailed the plot line here and Kim hit my next point.

We don't know who would have stepped to the fore or which direction things would have gone...........Too hard for my sorry mind to imagine. Dylan? Hard to tell where he would be.......and a whole lot of others too. damn near everyone in American folk owes something to Woody.

I'd like to hear from Art, Sandy, Jean, Hedy and others who were closer to the source and time, so to speak.

And Hawk.......Up Yours!!! Arlo looks great and that spirit within him is as bright, if not brighter, than ever!...........(:<)).........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: rangeroger
Date: 01 May 01 - 10:30 PM

We're going to have Arlo at the Fall Strawberry Music Festival and I"m really looking forward to his show.

The last time I saw him was in San Diego with John Prine.They were billed as the "Rolling Blunder Revue"

rr


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 02 May 01 - 01:37 AM

the woman who wrote Shakespeare's stuff would have written it (or maybe she did) I can't recall her name though-

Oh yeah - Anonumous.


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 01 - 06:46 AM

Well we would all be a bit more certain that "Bound for Glory" was a trad song instead of ascribing it to Woody. Woody tried correct the misconception but the title of his autobiography rather confuses the issue.


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Suffet
Date: 02 May 01 - 07:12 AM

I believe that genetics textbook is out of date. There seem to be several clusters of Huntington's Disease in the New World, including one in Venezuela. All are traceable to England, but not necessarily to that one Mayflower carrier. But it is fun to imagine Nora sipping tea with the Colonial Dames of America.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 02 May 01 - 01:10 PM

CRS strikes again; I rememberd I was wrong about when Pete Seeger dropped out after I posted. Crosschecking between David Dunaway's Seeger biog and Joe Klein on Woody, both agree that Woody was the one who encouraged Seeger to go travelling and "meet the people" which sure helped make Pete into Pete. Catspaw-- it's very hard to imagine today's folk scene without Woody because we're living in the world he WAS in; still my bet is that many songs would have been written along the same themes, maybe not as well.
Bert-- (sorry we had so little time together this past weekend!) Wellington would never have gotten trapped into a frontal attack as Pakenham did. By 1814 the British government was using him as an advisor on grand strategy and they had the sense to know that their national interest was NOT threatened by the American war (Wellington's was one of the stronger voices in saying this) -- in fact, W wrote a dispatch saying "You don't need me, you don't need a good general, what you need is naval superiority on the lakes; without that you shouldn't be demanding anything at the peace conference except status quo ante bellum." -- and that's what they settled for,two weeks BEFORE the 8th of January 1815.


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 02 May 01 - 01:11 PM

CRS strikes again; I rememberd I was wrong about when Pete Seeger dropped out after I posted. Crosschecking between David Dunaway's Seeger biog and Joe Klein on Woody, both agree that Woody was the one who encouraged Seeger to go travelling and "meet the people" which sure helped make Pete into Pete. Catspaw-- it's very hard to imagine today's folk scene without Woody because we're living in the world he WAS in; still my bet is that many songs would have been written along the same themes, maybe not as well.
Bert-- (sorry we had so little time together this past weekend!) Wellington would never have gotten trapped into a frontal attack as Pakenham did. By 1814 the British government was using him as an advisor on grand strategy and they had the sense to know that their national interest was NOT threatened by the American war (Wellington's was one of the stronger voices in saying this) -- in fact, W wrote a dispatch saying "You don't need me, you don't need a good general, what you need is naval superiority on the lakes; without that you shouldn't be demanding anything at the peace conference except status quo ante bellum." -- and that's what they settled for,two weeks BEFORE the 8th of January 1815.


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 02 May 01 - 04:12 PM

actually the thread raises an interesting point. In the early 80's a test became available for those who might be at risk of Huntingdons disease. The disease is a terrible degenerative one as you gradually lose your physical functions with your mind being the last to go. There is no cure. The onset of the disease is not until early forties. In a NOVA documentary the test was offered to several people including Arlo Guthrie who declined to take the test. One lady who did take it was devastated to find out that she will get it. The advantage of having this test really is to test during the preganancy and then there is a choice to terminate the pregnancy... It is unlikely that Arlo Guthrie has the disease as it would have occurred by now. The question is if that test was available to his mother and she would have made the decision to abort there would have been no Woody or Arlo and their subsequent legacy. There are similar tests now for certain types of cancers (ie some people carry a gene which makes them more likely to get cancer). The movie GATTACCA (which admitedly I havent seen, but know a little about) raises those very same points although to an extreme. Im not sure if Id take the test Id rather not know, on the other hand its better to prepare ones family. What would other people choose if that test was available?


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 02 May 01 - 04:16 PM

I just re-read my post, sorry that should read "Woodys Mother".

there is another intriguing historical scenario regarding and 18th French naval expedition which was shipwrecked with all crew lost at sea. One officer who applied for the expedition and was turned down was none other than Napoleon Bonaparte. Imagine that.


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 02 May 01 - 04:19 PM

I just re-read my post, sorry that should read "Woodys Mother".

there is another intriguing historical scenario regarding and 18th French naval expedition which was shipwrecked with all crew lost at sea. One officer who applied for the expedition and was turned down was none other than Napoleon Bonaparte. Imagine that.


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: mousethief
Date: 02 May 01 - 05:15 PM

So let me see if I understand.

If Joe Mayflower had never had a woody, he would never have had any kids, and thus Arlo Guthrie would never have been born?

I'm confused.

Alex


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Burke
Date: 02 May 01 - 06:20 PM

I'm looking at some online articles on Huntington's chorea. In Barranquitas Venezuela almost half of the 10,000 population has it. Most cases apparently trace back 200 years to one woman who had 10 children. The identification of the gene for it found testing the families there. With such a large population of carriers, they are more likely to marry & continue the high concentration. (see Business Week, May 29, 2000 i3683 p4EU2)

While predictive testing is possible the Lancet reported in Dec. that only 5-25% (several countries surveyed) of those at risk for the disease decide to receive it. This is mainly because there's no cure, so no point. In the US fear of loss of insurance is also a factor. Prenatal testing is also very low. (The Lancet, Dec 9, 2000 v356 i9246 p1944)


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 May 01 - 02:23 PM

Right around 10 PM on May 1st I got a sharp pain in my nether regions, and I'm blaming you, Spaw. I don't know how you did it, but I'm going to get you back. You've seen how Cletus skins a pig, haven't you? That only begins to suggest what's on the way for you... :-)

While we're on the subject, why don't we start a thread on "What if Wayne Newton had never existed?"?

I should think that could lead to some quite useful discussions on the state of the music business in 2001.

- LH


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: GUEST,Steve N.
Date: 03 May 01 - 02:29 PM

Great men/women arise to fill a gap at times of great need. If Woody had not been born, some other kid born in the "Dust Bowl" would have become the quintessential American song writer. That kid, of course, would have been Woody's soul, stuck in another body, and his great legacy of songs would be still sung today.


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 May 01 - 07:12 PM

Now there's an interesting thought. I think you may well be right about that, Steve!

- LH


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 May 01 - 07:29 PM

Well.......Guys I know someone else would have come along and all, but Hawk and Steve......uh, I was wonderin' if y'all could send me some of that stuff you're smokin'??

Spaw


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 May 01 - 07:58 PM

I call these "Green Cheese Questions".....as in
What if the moon was made of green cheese?
It's irrelevant, Counselor.


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 May 01 - 05:57 PM

I would send you some of that stuff if I thought it would do any good, Spaw! :-)

- LH

p.s. What if Sorcha had never posted?


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Subject: RE: What if Woody Guthrie had never existed?
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 May 01 - 06:30 PM

Well, I guess this is an interesting thread, but it is worth remembered that reading about Woody's mother is about the saddest thing you ever want to do.

yours, Peter T.


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