Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:14 AM

This also illustrates the value of an index that can be skimmed-- I have been making one in Excel. I would not think of searching on all those words, but if you skim the whole list, possibilities start to jump out at you as you soak up the dialect and the titling rationale. I'll have the index linked where you can see it very soon, BTW.

There is a print index I hope to have a copy of soon, as well... these make it much easier to find the relationships between things.

I think this is the first I have heard on the Oliver and Scarbourough works-- please say more about these so I can include them in the biblio I am working on for the African-American Spirituals Permathread. Any chance I could get a scan of the indexes for these?

Love to have you guys helping with that permathread, too!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:07 AM

Looks like several songs, and variants therof, have been put together in various permutations. Whoops! Quite a sentence. Verses by Odum, Oliver and Spaeth cited by Stewie seem to show what can happen, in the 150 or more years after the "original" songs, which we can never collect in their earliest form.
The verses with "'Most done ling'rin' here" from the earlier thread catches in my memory, I believe that I have heard it, but I may be deluding myself. Rich r, was there any more of it in that book? Or maybe someone can find a bit more somewhere...

Subject: Lyr Add: MOST DONE TRABELLIN'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:57 AM

rich r, I dunno if these fit, but maybe someone who has these songbooks can see:

Mos' Done Toilin' Here, in the Second Book Of Negro Spirituals
Most Done Toiling Here, in Folk Songs Of The American Negro

My index is not exhaustive-- others may have other hits on this as well.

Here's one I do have-- anything like "Lingering"? (Post it?)

~S~

=======================================================

MOST DONE TRABELLIN'
Traditonal Negro Spiritual

Oh, my mudder's in de road,
Most done trabelling;
My mudder's in de road,
Most done trabelling,
My mudder's in de road,
Most done trabelling.

REFRAIN:
I'm bound to carry my soul to de Lord.
I'm bound to carry my soul to my Jesus,
I'm bound to carry my soul to de Lord.

Oh, my sister's in de road,
Most done trabelling,
My sister's in de road,
Most done trabelling.
My sister's in de road,
Most done trabelling;

Oh, my brudder's in de road,
Most done trabelling,
My brudder's in de road,
Most done trabelling.
My brudder's in de road,
Most done trabelling;

Oh, de preacher's in de road,
Most done trabelling,
De preacher's in de road,
Most done trabelling.
De preacher's in de road,
Most done trabelling;

All de member's in de road,
Most done trabelling,
De members' in de road,
Most done trabelling.
De members' in de road,
Most done trabelling;


SOURCE: Hampton And Its Students (Armstrong, Ludlow)

@spirituals

SH

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:37 AM

Whoo-ee!, Stewie!!!!

Might we hope for more lyrics then? Puh-LEEZE???

~Susan

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: Stewie
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:33 AM

Neil, it is an example of floating stanzas. Paul Oliver notes in 'Screening the Blues' that 'at some indeterminate time' in the 19th century, the 'run nigger run' and 'some tell me that a nigger won't steal' etc stanzas became associated with the song generally known as 'You Shall Be Free'. Odum collected a version in the early 20th century and published it in 1911. He stated that it 'was originally adapted from a religious song, "Mourner, You Shall Be Free"'. The song was widespread. Oliver notes its collection under titles such as 'There was an old nigger, his name was Dr Peck', 'Ain't no use of my working so hard', 'Ole Marse John, Pore Mournah', 'Po' Mona' etc. The latter had the chorus:

Po' Mona you shall be free
Gooba-looba, Nigger, you shall be free
Keep a-shoutin', Nigger, you shall be free
When the good Lawd sets you free

Sigmund Spaeth published a version in 'Read 'Em and Weep' under the title 'Mona (You Shall Be Free) and commented that it 'represents the more sophisticated development of Negro folk music, with only a suggestion of the spiritual in the background'.

Uncle Dave Macon recorded a version in 1926 under the title of 'Shout Monah, You Shall Be Free'. Bob Hyland in his notes to 'Dixie Dewdrop' Vetco LP 101 noted that the song was of 'spiritual and minstrel popularity' and 'has had all sorts of lyrics and titles'. It was later recorded on Columbia by Bill and Belle Reed as 'You Shall Be Free', on Victor by the Carolina Tar Heels as 'When the Good Lord Sets You Free' and, as a pop song, under the title 'Oh Monah'. Uncle Dave later sang versions on radio verses that differed greatly from his 1927 recording.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 11:44 AM

Nice to see some interest in the music aspects of the subject.

Carry on.

~S~

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: GUEST,Irish Sergeant
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 08:11 AM

Again, is this the same song as "Run Mourner, Run" ? I didn't get an answer to that one. Neil

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:10 AM

Ummm...........last word thing again, eh? Well good, I hope it provides the necessary affirmation for you. But, kat, I don't need your advice on how to present the discussion. In fact, neither does my friend. I think I will just direct him to the thread, without comment, and see what he comes up with. You just stick with presenting your opinion, and I will present mine. But thanks for caring.

Mick

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:58 PM

Sure hope you will make it clear that we were ONLY talking about the title of the thread.

You all have gone off as though we have said there is no way this song should be posted, discussed, sung, or anything else.

No one has questioned the legitimate discussion of this song.

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM

Now we are getting somewhere. Thanks for the link, Joe. That is exactly what I was asking for. I am going to look up a folk/blues singing friend of mine in Detroit who happens to be African American and a folklorist of sorts. It is going to be interesting to hear his take on this, as well as his opinion on our little fracas.

Mick

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: raredance
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:00 PM

Since I am responsible for posting the set of lyrics that supposedly gives "spriritual" connotations to this song, I will at least offer and explantion of what I think may have happened. I have rexamined the Scarborough book and have a theory. Parts of both RNR and Lingerin' are found in two different places in the Scarborough book, p 12 and p 24-25. I think it is a type-setting error in the book. A title "Most Done Lingerin' Here" and four line tune with words are found at the top of p 25 right in the middle of a discussion of RNR with no explanation at all. On p 12 there is a title "Run, Nigger, Run" and four lines of music and words which is followed by text of the Lingerin' song. The two tunes are quite different and neither set of lyrics scans to the other tune. Both blocks of music are the same height and I believe they were transposed by the typesetter, i.e. the RNR music block should be on p 25 and the Lingern' music block should be on p 12. In that format the two songs are no longer even remotely connected. The key, I think, is Scarborough's lead-in text on p 12 which I will quote to support my thesis.

"Sometimes I have chanced upon songs unexpectedly, as in Louisville, Kentucky, several years ago, when I was waiting for a belated train. An old. old colored man, in ragged felt hat and clothes scarcely more than a collection of tattered patches, came along, followed by a flea-infested yellow dog. (I did not see the fleas, but the dog gestured of their presence) In spite of his garb, the old man had a quaint, antique dignity, which seemed to say that clothes were of small moment; I am sure he had a soul above patches. As he walked along, singing to himself, I followed him to hear and take down his song. His voice was cracked and quavery, and with the peculiar catch that aged Negroes have in their singing, but it was pathetically sweet."

I would argue that this description does not fit RNR at all but would fit with Lingerin'. I don't think RNR would be described as sweet. I believe there is no credible evidence that these two songs ever existed as a medley and therefore I propose that RNR and "Most Done Lingerin' Here" be completely separated. To me that eliminates any hint of a "spiritual" in RNR, although other list makers and linkers are free to make their own judgements. I hope this makes sense and I apologize for not recognizing the problem sooner.

rich r

Subject: Run Nigger Run
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 10:18 PM

The first thread I could find on this song is Run, Jimmie, Run. Take a look at the fascinating background information Abby Sale posted there.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 10:04 PM

The word causing so much contention here was originally Latin (Niger, etc.) but entered into European languages in the 16th C.(see OED, under Neger and Niger, as well as Negro (Spanish), nigger). I agree with Dick Greenhaus and Big Mick on this. McGrath is correct, there is no substitute for the correct name in an index.
If you check Allen et al. at the North Carolina- Hampton site, the 1874 fragment given is NOT a spiritual, but an old slave party song. It was also associated with the underground railway. The words given by McGrath belong to a spiritual that is unrelated to the song being discussed here. Several "spirituals" have been posted in the DT that are combinations or arrangements for gospel singers or white (dare I use the word?) choirs. The Black cable channel has been added here in Canada; Black stand-up comedians use the word in their routines, as stated in a post above.
Deletion of any word, to me, is censorship; the recent tendency toward sanitizing the language is the worst kind because it subtly erases the past. Dialect is also under attack; at least the Scots preserve much of their language (see the Scottish dictionary that has been posted here).

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 06:26 PM

Well, these lines from one of the versions on the arlier thread look pretty much like a spiritual to me:

I'm goin' away, goin' away,
I'm 'most done ling'rin' here;
I'm goin' away to Galilee,
And I'm 'most done ling'rin' here.

I have hard trials on my way
'Most done ling'rin' here;
But still King Jesus hears me pray,
'Most done ling'rin' here;

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 06:11 PM

I don't understand how this song (whatever you do with that middle word) can be called a spiritual.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 06:04 PM

I still can't see where ======= can be dealt with in an alphabetic index. I mean, would it come before or after ********? I'm not being sarcastic here, aside from that kind of practical problem, it seems a sensible way of dealing with a song where a key word varies a lot, .

That being said, I'd have serious objections to anyone trying to take the "croppies" out of a song like "croppies lie down" or the "papishes" or the "papists" out of other songs of the same ilk. Though before I'd accept anyone singing them in my presence without objection, I'd want to know they were singing them as historical documents, and not because they agreed with the sentiments.

Sanitising the past is in a way a betrayal of the people who were oppressed ad insulted in the past. The way I feel uneasy when I see cleaned-up "period" drama in which it is pretended that, for example the American West was free from racism. It reduces the pain, but it also reduces the heroism of those who resisted it, even maybe without knowing why, the real life Huckleberry Finns.

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 04:11 PM

OK, kat. You can have the last word on our disagreement. I know that is important to you.

Now, back to the discussion. In the original post, it was suggested that the song was written by blacks for blacks. Is there any other reference that can be provided? I am interested in this as a possible group discussion with other folkies of songs whose titles would be controversial now, but when sung in the context for which they were written were fine. That seems to me to be a legitimate discussion.

Mick

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: Troll
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 04:11 PM

The word "nigger" is an anglicazation of the Spanish word for the color black; negro. I'm afraid that Ms. Lewises explaination owes more to urban myth than actual fact.

troll

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 04:04 PM

I have a problem with making the ugly parts of our culture dissapear, and using euphemisms or 'talking around' terms, to me, implies that we're playing hear-no, see-no, speak-no-evil, and also implies that people are unwilling to tackle the subjects head on. Hiding monsters in the closet only makes the monsters stronger.

Anybody who wants to know the truth will not rely on simply recognising the word in a thread title and making an immediate judgement. When we think "somebody might be offended," or "I'm personally offended because it might hurt somebody else" we are taking away the right of the person/people we think we're protecting to make their own decisions. We are possibly eliminating honest discussion.

There is a word: "nigger." It is used today by people who hate and demean others. It's also used by people to refer to themselves. It may have been used in the past, possibly with less hatred, but possibly just as much, if not more contempt. It was used in a lot of songs by African Americans, and a lot of white people now sing those songs. If they sing those songs without changing them (or post they lyrics, or start a thread), they may just be honoring the historical truth of the song, or they may be trying to convey hate. If the singers/posters don't indicate their intentions, and you don't ask, it's just another door slammed shut. The lyrics are in the DigiTrad the way they were collected because we need to remember the bad things along with the good.

I personally think we need to quit being so afraid of language and communicating openly. It's the fear that gives the word its power.

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 03:55 PM

I was not the first to question the efficacy of the title, Mick. I posted in support of mary and Susan. And, you ascribe way too much power to me, if you think I, alone, can end any discussion on music or anything else, for that matter, around here.

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 03:48 PM

That was easy, kat. It is called demagoguery. I could pull up the discussion where people of color speak of how it is fine, as long as they are using it. You see, it is all about context. Amateur debaters use this gag all the time. The context of the discussion was simple. A musician asked about the song. S/he got what he wanted, as well as a good discussion of it. Then you come along and interject into the legitimate discussion a new element. I guess that is your right. But did you notice how you ended the discussion of the music?

Mick

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 03:47 PM

One more time, no one was asking that the song be changed or tellng Leadbelly he was wrong. We were only making note of the title and asking for an addition of explanation to it.

How about you leave it alone, too?

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 03:38 PM

Actually Mary, there have been any number of threads with words in titles that I found offensive. I never brought it up because it was a discussion. I just stayed away. In fact, I stayed away from this one for a long time because I disliked it. During the "Songs of the Orange Tradition" discussion there were several. You see, I can't defend my position and ability to use words if I am attacking others. This horrible word is used in a song title, and was likely used by the slaves themselves. I guess I have a problem with a bunch of well intentioned white folks trying to tell someone like Leadbelly that he was wrong. It is a discussion on a song. What is the use of changing a song to make it nicer, when one is discussing the song. To illustrate further, if the discussion had been about what we do when we sing a song that we find offensive, that would be one thing. This thread was a request for lyrics and information about a song. And the response was something akin to "OK, but only if you change the name of the song so it doesn't offend me". I don't know if I am being clear, but that seems to me to be wrong. As I tried to explain to Kat, I understand her premise, I just disagree. Leave it alone.

One more thing about being afraid that people you recommended this place to and are afraid they will misunderstand. Have a little faith in them. All they have to do is read the first six posts and they will see a legitimate discussion. Probably would even jump in.

Mick

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 03:34 PM

Don't take my word for it:

People of colour discuss the word "nigger" and its negative and positive connotations and use. Scroll down, it's a good discussion.

From: Queens College:

"I'm a twenty year old African American female. During my lifetime, I've heard many stereotypical names used to describe African Americans, but one that disturbs me the most is the name 'nigger.' Nigger is more than a word. It is like a weapon used against African Americans. The word nigger first appeared in the 1700s, and it was derived by the white man to imply a creature so degraded that they must represent a lower level of humanity. This was the white man's way of justifying slavery. But the word nigger can represent characteristics found in all people and races."

Latina Lewis

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From:
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 03:10 PM

Mick..I disagree. I can't think of a word as offensive that would be applied to the Irish...but take a fairly mild one..Run Priest-Ridden Mackeral-Snapper Run. Would you not be offended? Run Papist Run...I think the title itself does not sound like a scholarly discussion...it sounds threatening and I am all for using euphamisms, if necessary like Run O*&*(**__ Run mg

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 02:15 PM

Dick, that is pretty much what I was saying in the other thread. The word is ugly, but it is real and used in the lexicons of several groups. I tire of folks that think that people of African descent would somehow not be smart enough to read the thread and see its intent. It smacks of the same paternalistic crap we see too often. True liberals and intellectuals would trust that folks, any folks, would not get hung up at the title and move on to the discussion. While I applaud friend Susans attempt to solve what she sees as an argument, it did nothing to answer the question being raised.

Mick

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 02:04 PM

Yes, but the logic here is that the song exists in versions using different words.

The problem that occurs to me is, how does ======= work in an alphabetic index?

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 01:58 PM

Am I the only one who feels that using typographical euphemisms like n***r lies in the purview of Victorian pornography--you know, "...his throbbing p***k approached her quivering v****a...? It was silly then, and I think it's silly now. Nigger is an ugly word, unpleasant in its connotations, but it's a word. And it's a word that won't disappear until black comedians on cable TV stop using it.

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: GUEST,Irish Sergeant
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 01:26 PM

Susan: It is so good to hear from you again! I have been off line for the past two weeks. My sweetie and I went to Maine for our anniversary and I got a new computer. I haven't seen the other thread but there is also a slavery era song titled "Run Mourner, Run" that I will try to dig the lyrics up for. Things may finally be starting to click in the writing arena and I was cast as an extra in a movie. Very small part if I don't end up on the cutting room floor but that is for later. Sorry to blurt all of that but it has been awhile since I contacted all my friends at the cafe. Kindst reguards, Neil PS- Susan my best to Hardy and Monica and e-mail me so I can fill the address book up properly.

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 01:37 AM

Susan

You have certainly come back full force...a recent multitude of marvelous new lyric postings and research...what has happened? Unemployment or vacation? Whatever, it is an inspiration... may it ignite an epidemic contagion through your example of dedication.

A most sincere THANX,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 12:50 AM

All we can do is try. Someday the world will be much smarter. I'm sure of it.

~S~

Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 12:49 AM

Thank you, so much, Susan. An elegant solution and well done.

kat

Subject: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 12:42 AM

This is Part Two of a discussion that began HERE.

The titles for this song vary, such as:
"Run, Slave, Run"
"Run, Nigger, Run"
"Run, Chillun, Run"
"Run, Jimmie, Run"
"Run, Johnnie, Run"
"Run, Boy, Run"
"The Pateroller Song"
"Fire on the Mountain" (esp for the tune)

The song is usually understood to refer to slaves escaping patrols after Nat Turner's Revolt of 1832 (US history). Other applications of the song have included such things as "Run, Preacher, Run."

Part One of this thread includes detail on the above, verses, discography, and information about when it may have originated. A link is provided to another earlier thread, also containing good information. It also includes a discussion about the use of the term "Nigger" in a historical context, in a diverse, multicultural forum.

This "Part Two" thread , since it provides links to the earlier discussions, is the one that will be included in the Mudcat index thread, "Spirituals Posted at Mudcat," along with an increasingly-large number of other songs from the US slavery era.

~Susan