BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 09:54 PM

confused? No, *grin* just consistent.

as long as you stand in the shadows and refer to a request for fairness as 'blarney', you take your chances, I'm afraid. If you choose to keep your position that you can be above common courtesy, I may choose to keep commenting when I notice...ok? You can always ignore ME and continue your shadow posting...all I can hope for is that others might see the point and cease replying to those who refuse to have ANY identity.

and I think "..those of who have kept a grasp on it." need to get a better hold, on both politeness AND editing...

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 09:01 PM

But but but Bill D, now that you have made your point again, the next time you stumble across a thread that confuses you, just move on.
Please don't interrupt it with the same old blarney as you have just trotted out. It spoils it for those of who have kept a grasp on it.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 08:53 PM

"...it still makes me "the outsider". Outsiders are easy pickings around this place."

*tsk*..we have many regulars who post with a consistent name as 'guest' for one reason or other and have NO problems being respected and enjoyed. I have NO problems with 'treewind' not being a 'member'....if I ever have a disagreement with Treewind, it will be on the basis of what he/she says....

The problem of people posting long, involved arguments and promoting political agendas while refusing to use any name is an entirely different issue. It is a rude, tedious way of behaving, and to then accuse those who call attention to it of the rude behavior is the height of arrogance. Try it the polite way..pick a name, stick to it, and you will get all the thoughtful 'discussion' you want from almost everyone! You don't have to set a cookie and leave yourself open to PMs...just give us the respect of allowing us to reply without complicated references to time and quotations!

as I have said for YEARS, being obnoxious is not confined to "guests", but when a member is obnoxious, there are ways to deal with it...and IF they go over certain lines, as a couple have done, (You will notice how generous the 'line' is by how much MG gets away with),Management has options. Non-members can ignore civility with impunity unless entire IP addresses are blocked.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 08:35 PM

Treehouse, please consider. This thread begins with insults, unnecesary rude remarks, calling some threads that nobody is asking you to participate in or read at all "boring." And calling people Brits. Nicer people than I are willing to hold your hand through confronting something obvious. You are to some people what some other people seem to you. You are, in places, insulting, tedious, mechanical, haughty, and moronic.

   Guest, I too can review and red-mark like a school-teacher. Who can't? Guest doesn't play well with others. I'm being polite enough for the tone that was established, in point of fact. I'm not using naughty words either.

   The thing to do here is to do what you do better, and draw people in by their recognition of the value, interest, and fun of what you are doing or saying. Or is positive appreciation, as in taking the time to "get" people, and modest self-regard (in my case, sadly, mock-modest, because of my freaking awesomeness) not useful toward understanding?

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 08:12 PM

And I've stuck it in there now - Mudcat Gallery of Quotations

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:42 PM

"We seem to be talking apples and orangutans" - lovely coinage Jerry. One for the Mudcat Quotations thread, which exists around here somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 03:33 PM

But Guest, as I explained, these are not examples of my hurling insults, these are my NICE ones. I posted these instead. From my point of view, you and Treehouse ARE the Mudcat majority in that you and your ilk don't think my posts are as funny as I think they are. Pointing to some Mudcat Majority apart from yourselves is therefore bogus, and does not lead to any further understanding of what I want you to understand. I have only one anonymous guest in my camp, that's all. And even I am beginning to suspect it's me, posting how much I like my own posts.

Please allow me to imagine that I've thought about this before, and to feel on the whole that any remedy would be worse than the problem. Please? Can you please let me have my opinion, then patiently teach me how to better express it in the manner you want to hear? I'm trying, honest.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:14 PM

I tend to agree with Little Hawk and Amos.   I would hate to censor anything on this forum- it gives too much power to the person who makes that choice.   

There are always 100 different threads to look at.   If you don't like one or think it is silly- don't open it. If enough people don't open it, the thread will go away.    I only have time to look at 5-6 threads a day.    Sometimes music, sometimes non music.   It just depends what cathes my eye that day.

But my eye is different than your eye.   I wouldn't expect others to have my exact interests.   Therefore, I like having all the choices. Even if some are "SHITE".   I also don't expect anyone to have my same lack of taste in humor. A person in my office said she completely understood my sense of humor and I suggested counceling.

To me, the forum is kind of like a song swap.   The less rules the better. If someone wants to sing "Kumbaya" let them.   Otherwise, somebody will be telling the rest of us what we must sing.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Treehouse
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 01:20 PM

Good question Guest 1:03.

I can only speak for myself, of course. My strategy regarding the MGs of Mudcat has been pretty consistent, though not 100%. I nearly always choose option 2. My results have been very good with that option. #1 demeans me, so I'd rather not. And #2 means it is irrelevant if I am his target, because I care not one iota what the MGs of the world have to say about me. Why would I? They are jerks.

It isn't a terribly complex forumula. It makes for a much better online experience everywhere I've ever posted except in this forum. Not only does everyone revel in this Tourette syndrome sort of behavior, ie completely out of the blue interrupting threads and hurling abuse at those carrying on a conversation, but there are membership bonus points when the interruptions are done in a thread started by non-members, and a regular lemming effect when members direct their animosity towards named or unnamed guests.

This thread illustrates my point quite well, actually. Even though I am posting politely with the 'From' line filled in, as all members insist must be done to be polite and not be viewed as a troll, I have been consistently accused of posting anonymously in this thread.

I am not anonymous, I am Treehouse. But because that name has never been used at Mudcat before (I checked before using it), it still makes me "the outsider". Outsiders are easy pickings around this place. But now, many members are beginning to feel the pain. Because if the entire forum supports members getting their jollies by abusing guests (regardless of whether or not the 'From' line is filled in consistently with the same word/name), it is a quick slippery slope to abusing one another.

Which is what has happened here. You see, these sorts of double standards for behavior never work the way people say they do. People here have been saying for years that guests bloody well deserve to be abused because they aren't members. Now, it looks as if the new Mudcat majority is deciding that if it is acceptable to abuse guests, why not members they dislike too? So then, you gets what you gets.

Which is what ya got here.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 01:03 PM

It is hard to make a collective decision regarding your 'obnoxious' members, because there is not a collective opinion.

Take your lovely MG as an example, those who have encountered him seem to fall into three distinctive camps :

1. Insult him right back.
2. Ignore him.
3. Humour him so as not to be his next target.

What kind of action would need to be taken re this member, in order to please all above camps?

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: John Routledge
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 01:01 PM

It may also be helpful to look at "Interactive Personal Dynamics in Semi-Moderated Forums"

Perhaps Bill would like to start a thread. I am not brave enough :0)

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:37 PM

Shambles:

We seem to be talking apples and orangutans. I think everyone in here agrees that there should be room for disagreements, and even heated arguments. I agree with that. If you go back to the title of this thread, it is NOT What to do about Mudcatters who disagree with us? That is not the issue, and this thread goes on endlessly not discussing the issue. The issue is people who come in to a thread, not to post their agreement, but to immediately attack other posters with obscenities and personal insults. I have not seen you do that, so you are not one of the people I am talking about.

Rather than continuously discussing freedom of speech and the right to disagree (which everyone agrees upon,) how about commenting on whether or not you are comfortable with people who come onto a thread and start attacking other Catters with a string of obscenities.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:35 PM

But you must admit you do rather go on about it. Past the point when it ceases to be helpful to anybody, in my view, and I am pretty sure. A bit more "serenity to accept the things they cannot change" might be appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:24 PM

Bill you and anyone else has every right to express your opinion.

When complaints are made and encouraged to made about what and how others posters contribute in the hope that editing action is imposed -or these posters are forced to post in the manner you require of them, that is another thing. Is it setting a very positive example?

Making ground for this, has been encouraged for a long time but will never ever satisfy those encouraged. Perhaps it is time for some of the the more tolerant among us who generally like our forum as it is, to be listened to for once? Perhaps those who do not accept the reality of what our forum is, can just be encouraged to stop complaining about other posters or to go somewhere else?

The routine imposition of editing action is a big thing for the individual concerned. I trust you agree with that? Encouraging posters to request that editing action be imposed in secret upon others by unknown volunteers is not in any spirit of The Mudcat that I understand. This example just encourages more people to feel that the routine imposition of this is acceptable and the only answer.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:00 PM

I'm not sure you quite realize, Shambles, that the logical extension of your position is that 'freedom to post what they like' INCLUDES the freedom to note objectionable behavior. McGrath & I ...and others...have long said, and by your logic, have the right to say, that we do not appreciate anonymous trolling. All those folks would have to do is pick a name and those complaints would drop to zero. (oh, sure,arguments with them would continue, but about issues).

Max has also said that the volunteers can and will continue to do some forms of editing of posts that you often object to. You seem to wish to pick & choose which of Max's edicts you will follow.


(sometimes I wonder if this whole thing is providing someone data for a PhD in Sociology... "Interactive Personal Dynamics in Semi-Moderated Forums")

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 11:12 AM

Yes Kevin......And am I glad you agree.

I feel that there are many like me who do actually like our forum - as it is, warts and all and are happy for it to reflect all of the contributions that Max has invited.

Sadly those that do not accept this have and are still constantly trying to change it by these complaints. And sadder still, those complaints, usually to judge the worth of what and how other people post, (and which is no none else's business) have been encouraged.

For example, rather than accepting that Max has invited people to post what they like and to use their own name or no name at all - Some posters continue to judge others and insist that guests use a consistent name, even when it is perfectly clear that Max has no intention of imposing this change......

Folk do have a right to express a view, folk also have a right to agree or to disagee with that view and also to ingore anything they wish or which is not to their taste...Perhaps we can finally accept this?

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 09:22 AM

Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to realise that this is a forum open to the public and that they have no control over the posts and ideas of others

Quite right, Shanbles. But it applies to you as well.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 08:25 AM

Time to start a thread about long, boring, sanctimonious threads rather than humorous ones, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:23 AM

j0hn,while I enjoy most of your posts, and suspect there is an intelligent person lurking under a lot of your off beat posts, you are becoming part of the problem, and not the solution. Personal attacks, comments, and dredging up postings from 1999 solve nothing, and are mean spirited. The title of this thread is "What to do about obnoxious MC members", it is an invitation to contribute ideas to help stop the nastiness, not to illustrate the problem.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 03:16 AM

I see Mr Shambles doesn't answer me!

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 03:13 AM

I thought Smurfs were little blue cartoon people from one of the Scandanavian countries...

There was even a Smurf Song that made it into the Hot Parade - anyone remember it?

Robin
(Now its a music thread!)

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 03:07 AM

Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to hide the bodies where they can't be found.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:40 AM

shambles=really, really big writing =SHUT UP!

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:23 AM

Subject: RE: Can we (meaning you) rename a thread?
From: The Shambles
Date: 14-Aug-04 - 02:30 AM

Wesley S came up with the following [posted in the latest 'hug and prayer complaint thread]- it says more in a few lines than I can ever manage, in my long-winded way.

Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to realise that this is a forum open to the public and that they have no control over the posts and ideas of others

As it was not a suggestion of mine, is there any chance of you putting this wonderful common sense into the FAQ and in the headings of the various forums? [crediting Wesley S of course]

The starting point is setting the example that accepts that none of us here really have any control over the posts and ideas of others - only ourselves. That is something I would have thought that the Joe Offer I first came across and greatly respected in the forum, accepted and set the best example in.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:19 AM

GUEST: I have a question for you.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:00 AM

Like Jeryy Rasmussen and others I've avoided this thread until now.

What Happened to the fun threads?
lets not forget why we came here [we share a love of folk and traditional music and song]

why so much moaning?

Shambles-And as for you!, why don't you just give it a rest?
you are a constant whinge, whinge, whinge!
you quoute Joe [who does a lot of work here for free, you are constantly on his case [because he moved/closed/deleted one of your threads?
talk about bearing a grudge eh!

LEAve the bloke alone, eventually he might say "fuck this, it ain't worth the hassle"
he could quite easily sit and watch television, or go to the pub, or loads of other stuff like that.
Max owns the site, but he is busy trying to earn a living, raise a family, pay the bills etc.
Joe is retired, and chooses to spend some of his time here helping out, waht thanks does he get?
you fucking moan all the time!
so waht if he delted/closed your thread, its just a website!
get a life!

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 11:42 PM

Fred, you know what? Referring to a poster expressing their opinion on posters disrupting and derailing threads isn't the equivalent of (your words) "futile desire to control a coalescence of social tone and manners by dictating what he or she prefers". That is just plain bogus. And adding insults about the person's opinion being "absurd, unrealistic, autistic fantasies" because you disagree with the strong opinion being expressed, isn't much of a contribution or a furthering of understanding.

As if that was your intention.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 09:03 PM

As usual, McGrath chooses to deflect the conversation by focusing on the identity of the poster, rather than the content of the post.

Not so, nameless friend. The point in question wasn't one of identity as such - I don't know anything about the identity of more than a handful of people here - it was about the intention of the post which launched this thread, and the subsequent posts by the same person.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 08:40 PM

Thanks for clarifying that, Cluin - and that was a good example of why it's not a good idea to snap back too strong when you think someone's aimed something at you.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 08:10 PM

Why don't I address Bobert's concerns instead of attacking Treehouse. Let me explain. For one, Bobert's concerns weren't on this thread when I posted, and even if they were, I'm not required to respond in the way that someone, later, wishes I would've. This goes back to my point about absurd, unrealistic, autistic fantasies of social interaction.

Second, I'm not really attacking Treehouse, or his futile desire to control a coalescence of social tone and manners by dictating what he or she prefers. A previous post in which I simply made fun of Treehouse in my preferred pathetic manner didn't take, for some reason. So I then decided to post "seriously" in my best version of what manner I can gather that Treehouse prefers. If I'm now also required to share Treehouse's point of view and concerns as well, because Bobert seems to reflect some of them in another post, then you are an absolute moron, no joke intended, and you should try to get help that I'm not qualified to provide.

I've answered those concerns anyway. I obviously don't share them and can't be drafted by hook or crook. I know where to go for more polite discussions, on subjects of particular interest to me, where more on-topic ettiquette suits me better. Here I'm satisfied with letting others post in ways I may not like, if I can post in ways they might not like. Treehouse simply doesn't like it, and as simply, I do. I'm sorry, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 08:05 PM

I wholly agree with Jerry in finding absurd the notion that "If you insult someone, it's their fault for being insulted". At the same time I don't think that the fact we've been insulted in a forum like this ever means that we are justified in throwing insults back. "It takes two to tango."

You mean like these examples (for others to follow) from our volunteers?

Shambles, go whine somewhere else, or maybe we should start threads about you and the sheep or something.

But Shambles believes in this sort of thing, so I think that maybe this would be a good opportunity to smear his reputation. Shambles, I'm sick of you and your shit.

Ah, Shambles - we make an exception for you, since you seem to think it's a good thing to have personal attacks. We want to keep you happy, after all. Your whining is so annoying.

Now there are some worse examples, if you wish me to find them?

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 07:59 PM

No, McGrath, my post was not directed at you. If it was I would have PMed you. Sorry it looked that way and also sorry for the late reply; I was on the road this weekend.

And WYSIWYG, what you refer to above is known as:
Smurfing - smacking your partner in the face with your penis, also known as a "Danza Slap" because of an urban legend that Tony Danza did this in a porno movie early in his career, as in the sentence... "It's a real Danza Slap if you say `Who's the Boss?' while you're doing it; otherwise it's just plain old Smurfing, man."

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 07:50 PM

Argument is a funny word - it can mean a discussion between people who disagree about some thing, or it can mean a quarrel. And those aren't the same thing by any means.

Discussing disagreements is a useful thing to do. Letting that turn into a quarrel isn't.

Some people seem to find it hard not to turn discussions into arguments. Sometimes I get the impression that it's not that the disagreement build up into a quarrel, it that people are looking for a quarrel for its own sake, and just about any pretext will serve.

I wholly agree with Jerry in finding absurd the notion that "If you insult someone, it's their fault for being insulted". At the same time I don't think that the fact we've been insulted in a forum like this ever means that we are justified in throwing insults back. "It takes two to tango."

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Pogo
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 07:23 PM

It all reminds me of the Monty Python Arguement Clinic skit, actually.

Some people love to argue. I can't say I see the point of it. Perpetuating contention for the pure love of contention is just annoying, it doesn't prove how smart or sophisticated you are.

As for dismissing the humor threads I say this...

" A little nonsense
Now and then
Is cherished by
The wisest men "

I like a little side of whimsy every once in a while, it's a breath of fresh air. Life would be unbearable if we were serious all of the time.

So there. My two cents...

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 06:53 PM

I've avoided posting to this thread because it looked like it would quickly evolve into an "Oh yeah, you're stupid" call and response. Somehow, Treehouse's opening statements didn't sound much like a sincere effort to communicate.

I also find the argument that if you insult someone, it's their fault for being insulted kinda stange. There is a big difference between disagreements, even heated disagreemnts, and outright mean-spirited insults. I've seen what has happened to Don Firth and if people wish to brush that off as just a "disagreement" or suggest that Don was being overly sensitive, then I question how they carry on a respectful conversation with anyone.

What bothers me is that I've seen another music community destroyed by a few people who thought that they could say anything they wanted, no matter how cruel-hearted and that if people didn't like it, they should leave. That's exactly what finally happened. What had been a lively, mostly mutually supportive community of people is now a ghost town. I still have several wonderful friends that I made in that community, and I have many here. It bothers me that fewer and fewer of them seem to be participating these days.

One of the arguments I hear is that this is like the Wild West and only those who are "strong" survive in here. That's confusing strength with volume. There is something unrealistic about a internet community because in 3D people would never get away with the guly insults they toss around so casually in here.

I like the people in mudcat. I enjoy having a conversation, and I appreciate the generosity and kind-heartedness I've come to know in here. I just hate to see it diminished.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:07 PM

weelittledrummer,

I have never found you to be obnoxious. So, what have I been missing?

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Friend of Treehouse, Amos, and Victor Meldre
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:49 PM

Jon and Shambles, would you mind please moving the conversation to a thread where your perfectly legitimate issues, are relevant? We are trying to discuss a very specific problem behavior that is currently nearing epidemic proportion here, cause largely by obnoxious members.

We aren't suggesting/discussing censorship, as we have stated, censorship isn't the antidote to this problem. Nor is moderation. While creating a well moderated forum back in the day would have circumvented the very problem of which we speak here, discussions of censorship and moderation really aren't relevant anymore in this forum.

The only possible solution to the behavior of obnoxious members, is for members and guests alike who behave well and decently here, to ignore obnoxious members and guests.

Shunning those who engage in the obnoxious behavior would be a swift antidote for those who typically refuse to control themselves (and most of us don't seem to be having much problem coming up with a 'worst offenders' list).

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:31 PM

Shambles, perhaps I should have said that, or if I had done, been more clear. I was not talking about member posts. What I was trying to say was if some idiot guest just came along and just posted a link to something sexually explicit, there wasn't a question that it should go, at least not if it was caught straight away before other posts had been added.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Victor Meldrew.
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:29 PM

The odd non sequitur will always creep in, and the off-beat, off topic funny remark is not totally beyond the pale. However some eedjit jumping into an otherwise sober and sensible thread (Remember them!)with cries of, '100 Yippee' is beyond a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:17 PM

"I get a feeling that "GUEST,Treehouse" may be the same as that last GUEST."

As usual, McGrath chooses to deflect the conversation by focusing on the identity of the poster, rather than the content of the post.

No one has suggested anything "be done" to people. What has been suggested is that members who keep disrupting threads in which they have no interest other than disrupting the thread, control their "on a whim" trigger fingers on the 'Submit Message' button.

If you aren't one of the people engaging in such behavior, and disrupting threads you don't like just for the hell of it because you can, then nothing being said in this thread is of relevance to you. There is no need for you to be personally offended. There is no need for you to come to the rescue of other members' dishonorable and rude behavior, unless you are interested in protecting your personal right to be a jerk here.

As Shambles has noted, each and every poster to this forum has the ability to control what they post, and where they post.

All this thread is really, is a thread begging members to EDIT THYSELF.

Or as I asked in my last post, is the true goal of the members posting to this thread to entrench and maintain an anti-social forum for anti-social misfits--or as Bobert put it, a forum that is the cyber equivalent of TV wrestling?

It is up to each and every poster to this forum, what type of forum this will be, because what and how we post is what determines it.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:59 PM

cough

gasp

aw, shit, now I have to wipe off the screen and the keyboard

I just read daylia's post.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:43 PM

What tough questions? I haven't seen smoke at member's feet, let alone fire. :rolleyes:

I'm still waiting for treehouse or any complaining person to come up with ideas to fix what they see as a problem.....

I laugh at people who say 'this is wrong, this is crap, this is unfair' yet never seem to come up with the ideas to fix what they see is wrong, crappy or unfair.

Perhaps tree wouldn't be dismissed so quickly if he/she offered ideas to fix what they see is the problem. Ideas have been implemented at mudcat before - the splitting of the music and BS threads into their own sections was a direct result of people at this forum asking for a separation, and a perfect example of constructive criticism leading to changes.

I haven't seen tree or anyone else in this thread offer constructive criticism or solutions to their own complaints. Just a bit of laughable BS. At least its in the right section.... :D

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:43 PM

I suspect LH just wants to enjoy the sun, GUEST. I know he's not much into conflict and confrontation, especially when it serves no useful purpose.

If I don't like the tone of a certain thread, I've learned not to post on it.

If I don't care for someone's on-line manner or find I'm always butting heads with them for some reason or another, I've tried making it a policy to skip their posts. (WARNING: if you try the ignoring tactic and the person does decide to extend the olive branch at some point, you'll never know it)

When it gets really unbearable, I just stay away from the Cat completely for a while. But I'd rather be here than on a site so heavily censored and monitored the discussions sound like they're piped in from the good ship Lollipop!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:33 PM

The official line with Joe Clones is that they do not delete posts. This is not quite true as I for one would delete a clear case, eg. a thread opening with a link to a porn site, knowing it would have to go and knowing such an action would be supported from above. Overall though, Joe would be alerted rather than a Clone making judgement themselves.

If it is not true, then the whole official line is based on a lie and this lie just encourages many who do not wish the forum well, to constantly point this lie out. What is Joe, if not another poster who has volunteered to judge and impose this judgement upon other posters? I feel that the official line should be what is actually happening and this then can always be defended and if someone finds their post has gone and asks why their contribution has been deleted, the reasons for this can be explained.

I have demonstrated and evidenced so many occasions when this offical line was not the case and all of these have always been defended and nothing has changed. Rather than accepting that nothing is perfect and everything can be improved, those holding a different view and who write suggesting improvements, are subject to their motives being questioned and to personal abuse from these volunteers. Not, I feel the best example to give if one of the main objectives is meant to be the prevention of such things.

But can this single measure actually work, when the post appears and the 'damage' has aleady been done? Do we not as individual posters have all the editing tools we require? Do we have to open the forum at all? Do we have to open threads that from their title are clearly not to our tastes. Do we have to read every post even if we have opened the thread? Having found something that is not to our taste, Do we have to make such a fuss about it that other posters, who would have not even seen it - are alerted to it?

There will be no shortage of folk vounteering to judge and impose this reactive judgement upon the worth of other's postings. This example just encourages posters to feel as if it is their duty to request editing to be imposed upon others. My concern is less that some form of editing takes place but that there is thought to be only one type of editing - i.e. the imposition deletion of posts or the deletion or closure of entire threads. Whatever the nature of the 'offence', this is imposed by volunteers upon the contributions of those Max has invited to contribute.

Can at least it be accepted that to find one's invited contribution has been subject to imposed editing - always remains A BIG THING to the individual poster. This general and routine imposition is just not in the spirit of the Mudcat, especially when the posters only 'offence' is to post to a entire thread that is deleted. Is it really too much to ask that, when and where it is possible, (as it very often is) to consult the poster before any judgment and imposed editing action is taken on their contribution, that this attempt be made?

That judgement and imposition based on this judgement is used sparingly and always as a last resort? And that posters are encouraged by the good example being set, to shape our forum by their postive contributions and not by being encouraged to request editing to be imposed upon the posts of others?

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:26 PM

I get a feeling that "GUEST,Treehouse" may be the same as that last GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:18 PM

And avoid the tough questions, right Little Hawk? You seem to be one of those who led the lemming charge over the cliff in this thread, so it comes as no surprise when someone holds members' feet to the fire, you start squirming.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:12 PM

Nice weather out there today. I think I'll get some sun.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:07 PM

If people believe the forum to be unmoderated it must be so, sort of like the prayer chain working to cure all ills.

If the moderation is done in secrecy, there must be a good reason, we just can't be privy to it.

If this is a moderated site, what exactly, is being done to moderate the immoderate behavior that is so disruptive to thread continuity and alienating to people like Jerry Rasmussen and Bobert, well liked members of the forum who started complaining about the anti-social behavior before Treehouse did?

Could it be that everyone attacks Treehouse (an easy target) not Bobert and Jerry, because Treehouse can be easily attacked and dismissed, while Bobert can't be?

This thread, with a guest as the originator, is now well over 100 posts attacking the guest, but with rare exceptions like Amos, not actually addressing the issue Treehouse raised.

Compare this to the Can You Say Acrimony thread which only garnered 23 posts.

So why are the members here ignoring the same concerns expressed by Treehouse, being expressed by the likes of Jerry Rasmussen and Bobert?

Could it be the ease with which the automatic Mudcat lemming response, which causes all of you leap off the 'attack the guest' cliff in such huge numbers? That you use the 'attack the guest' ploy as a means of avoiding discussions of subject matter that concerns you, and makes you feel uncomfortable with the way you are behaving? So once the lemming express gets rolling, the tactic for refusing to discuss ultimately results in the whole subject discussion being shouted down and drowned out, so you can comfortably settle back down into your dysfunctional ways?

Here is what Bobert had to say about all this just a few days ago:

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 11:36 PM

Well, Jerry, I couldn't have said it better.

Yeah, I've been known to get up on a soapbox now and then but I'd like to think when I get to discussin' issues (okay, debating them, if you will...) that I do it with respect for those on the other side. I mean, I cannot fathom either DougR or Teribus resorting to the base-ness of what I've seen here at Mudcat over the last month or two.

It has gotten so bad that even well thought out threads get hyjacked by the same few folks who just want to find another thread to attack one another. It doesn't make me want to contribute.

Throw in the "slam book" threads that I was asking about and Mudcat has just about been reduced to somethin' akin to TV wrestling. It is gettin' dumbed down at breakneck speed and I'm finding less and less joy in coming here...

So, Fred Miller, et al, how about you address Bobert's concerns, instead of attacking Treehouse?

And really, what is anti-social about commenting upon people's anti-social behavior? Why is the anti-social behavior being so rigorously defended by so many here? Is a community of anti-social misfits the goal here?

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 07:21 AM

OK Shambles, Ill try to be as objective as possible and as am speaking as an ex Joe Clone (one who resigned but not for reasons of editorial policy).

My own preference was to be known as a Joe Clone but I can't argue with those who want to remain "hidden" or with Joe's "protection". In my experience, nothing underhanded goes on in terms of actions from the clones and ultimately, it is Joe, not Max, who tends to end up carrying the can for any editorial decisions.

Hidden editors, are not uncommon either. I did read you comment on the BBC boards in the help forum saying you at least knew who the mods were. Nothing could be further from the truth. We know who the hosts for the boards are but there is a team (I think called the mod squad) that nobody knows anything about. Posts have dropped off the BBC F&A board without Mel (host) knowing anything about them.

The official line with Joe Clones is that they do not delete posts. This is not quite true as I for one would delete a clear case, eg. a thread opening with a link to a porn site, knowing it would have to go and knowing such an action would be supported from above. Overall though, Joe would be alerted rather than a Clone making judgement themselves.

That brings me on to the close thread option which did not exist in my time and one possible application of it. To understand this, you have to understand the nature of Mudcat and some MC members. I, like you, are familiar with unmoderated places like uk.music.folk and we both know that people over there do not get excited over things like my porn example. They are controled enough not to react but over here it is guaranteed that some will have to express their shock and horror, etc. and in no time a long thread has developed...

You may wonder why I said a possible application of closing a thread in relation to this but if you bear in mind that Clones are not supposed to delete posts and Joe is not around for 24/7 consultation, it gives another and perhaps better option. The thread can in theory be put on hold to prevent further trouble and later be re-opened if appropriate.

Where I would be inclined to agree with you, is that if moderation is to exist (and I am not going to argue it should or shouldn't or if it does the appropriate level - those sort of things make a site different to another and contribute towards "uniqueness") I do believe that everyone should be clear as to the rules (and no that doesn't mean a need to know who applies them) and that what rules exist are applied equally.

My personal opinion is that MC perhaps could improve a little more towards those goals but overall plays pretty straight on this.

Subject: RE: BS: What to do about obnoxious MC members?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 06:50 AM

look I admit I'm the obnoxious one. I come from an obnoxious family. I never really had a chance in life to be anything except obnoxious. I live in an obnoxious house with my obnoxious dog. There are no redeeming factors in my obnoxiousness.

It was me doing it all the time to get attention.

Jaysus..... what a thread!