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BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!

Genie 05 Nov 04 - 07:42 PM
Genie 05 Nov 04 - 07:45 PM
Genie 05 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM
jaze 05 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM
Bill D 05 Nov 04 - 07:53 PM
Genie 05 Nov 04 - 07:54 PM
Genie 05 Nov 04 - 08:02 PM
Cluin 05 Nov 04 - 08:08 PM
Bill D 05 Nov 04 - 08:10 PM
Genie 05 Nov 04 - 08:11 PM
Ebbie 05 Nov 04 - 08:54 PM
Genie 05 Nov 04 - 09:06 PM
Genie 05 Nov 04 - 09:24 PM
dianavan 05 Nov 04 - 09:28 PM
Ebbie 05 Nov 04 - 09:47 PM
Little Hawk 05 Nov 04 - 10:17 PM
Ebbie 05 Nov 04 - 10:50 PM
Genie 05 Nov 04 - 10:51 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 05 Nov 04 - 11:18 PM
Bobert 05 Nov 04 - 11:48 PM
DMcG 06 Nov 04 - 04:10 AM
DMcG 06 Nov 04 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,Rasmus 06 Nov 04 - 10:29 AM
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Ebbie 17 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM
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Subject: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:42 PM

This is a situation seriously in need of immediate attention and public scrutiny.


Graphic: Exit Polls Compared to "Actual" Vote / paper ballot vs. black box voting



Many of us have been outraged, from the outset, that the US would allow its election to involve electronic voting machines that offer no way of validating or verifying the accuracy of their results and whose source code is "proprietary" to the companies that design and manufacture them (not even election officials can check the "insides" of the machines to detect fraud or random error).

Now there is striking evidence that the use of these machines probably not only gave George W Bush both Florida and Ohio -- and thus the electoral college majority -- but inflated the margin of his win in many states that would have gone "red" anyway (e.g., N. Carolina) and deflated Kerry's majority in other states that went "blue" (e.g., New Hampshire).

One major way this was done was via the unverifiable vote counts of the "black box" electronic voting machines in which over 30% of the nation's votes were cast. Lots of info on this is available at
blackboxvoting.org
and
gregpalast.com, but here is a very important graphic comparing exit polls to official vote counts in some states with and some without the electronic machines.

Exit Polls vs. Election "Results" With Paper Ballots Vs. "Black Box" Voting Machines
http://therandirhodesshow.com/todays_show.html



PLEASE PASS THIS INFO TO EVERYONE you know -- Democrat, Republican, or Independent -- who really cares about having a FAIR election. There is still a chance that we can DEMAND an investigation into these irregularities (plus other types of voter disenfranchisement) before it's too late for this year. The electoral college doesn't meet till December and new Senators and Representatives won't take office till January. Time is of the essence, but there is still time.

Our best weapon here is to bring this to the attention of the public and force the media to deal with it.

Bev Harris and Greg Palast, of blackboxvoting.org have been fighting to bring this issue to mainstream attention for several years, and now they are positioned to file multiple suits under the Freedom Of Information act to demand an audit of the electronic voting machines' programming and source codes.   Please support them in this effort, even if it's only $5 per person. Since the lapdog TV media are more interested in the Scott Peterson trial than with the survival of our democracy, this kind of pressure is about the only leverage we as voters have, and it's too important to just roll over again!

Even if we don't prevail for 2004, we MUST get this outrage fixed before the 2002 elections, and that means NOT letting the issue drop out of public awareness, the way Democrats did with the frauds and errors of the 2000 election.

Jeanene Pratt


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:45 PM

Exit Polls vs. Election Results / Paper vs. Electronic Ballot


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Subject: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM

BlackBoxVoting.org


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: jaze
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM

I heard on the radio today that in Ohio, one princinct where 600 people voted, the machine credited Bush with 4200 votes. This is frightening. How many other machines "malfunctioned"??


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:53 PM

here are a bunch of pages I have been sent about the results. I don't necessarily believe/agree with them all, as conspiracy theories are as common as cheating and vote rigging, but they all bear reading and thinking. I am SURE there were some attempts to stack the deck--whether that made the difference, I am not prepared to say. I do believe that there is at least some facts in all the hype. I also doubt it will ever be proved or make any difference. All we can do is try to find out and, IF it is true, avoid it in the future.


http://www.legitgov.org/pressrelease_stolen_election_2004_110404.html

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won.php

http://www.geocities.com/wcheated/markcrispinmiller.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1321453

http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2004/112004/11022004/1102problemsforweb

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/news/politics/election2004/110204voting.html

http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/03_200.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:54 PM

It's already been pretty much proved that Max Cleland lost his Senate seat in Georgia to the black box machines that we allow to be run totally by private companies. (There was an investigation via the FOI act and it was found there was a "patch" used to distort the vote tally.   Many in the media blame Cleland's defeat on a smear campaign by the Karl Rove machine, but as it turns out, the machine did it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:02 PM

Bill D, yes, we do need to sort the "wheat" from the "chaff," but what we are asking is a THOROUGH INVESTIGATION and ASAP.
First, the longer we wait, the more the media and public will say, "Let it go. It's over."
(We DID that after the 2000 election debacle, on the grounds of "letting the country's divisions heal." Thus, we got even more interference with fair elections in 2002 and now, especially, in 2004.) You've got to do the CHALLENGES NOW and you've got to get the public's attention NOW.

Second, given the closeness of the margin in many races, it's quite possible a timely audit can still produce a fair and just count before January.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:08 PM

Like Jon Stewart and the Daily Show titled their election coverage show on Tuesday Night:
Election Night 2004 -- Prelude to a Recount.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:10 PM

yes, as long as so many voting machines cannot be audited or monitored by some independant group, rigging the vote can become MUCH easier than stuffing ballot boxes used to be...and much cheaper than buying votes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:11 PM

Right now, the best hope of spearheading this effort for an audit of the election results in states with questionable voting practices is to join the effort to demand an audit of New Hampshire.

Note that NH officially went for Kerry, so the issue there isn't the electoral college results. It's about EXPOSING the FRAUDS.

RALPH NADER is the main one challenging the corporate-controlled ballot box!

You can help by FAXING him, as follows:

Send a Fax Now to:
202-265-0092 
 
Text should Read:
 
RALPH --
     
Challenge the election results in New Hampshire, Now.
 
Your Name,
Black Box Voting Activist 

Now's the time to forgive Ralph and help him get back to the kind of consumer advocacy he's long been so good at!

Genie


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:54 PM

Gads, I hate this kind of thing. Part of me says, Let the bush clean up his own mess! The more sensible part of me realizes that it's not just George who would suffer- it's the USA - it's US!- and the rest of the world.

In the graphs, notice the coherence of the exit polls and vote tally in each of the states that did NOT use electronic voting. There is a definite validity to exit polling. Very little difference it and the actual tally. If these graphs are correct. the differences are damning.

I keep remembering on Election Night how flabbergasted the networks were at the difference.

Here are the figures from the Electoral College on the pertinent states, states that show a major discrepancy:

Distribution of Electoral Votes
Total Electoral Vote: 538

      
Florida 27
New Mexico 5
North Carolina 15
Ohio 20

A total of 67 votes.

Dubya ostensibly won by 34 votes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:06 PM

The spin by the lapdog TV media is really inane! When confronted with an Ohio machine that gave about 4,000 extra votes to Bush (only 600+ voters used that machine), their comments were along the lines of, "But that's the only problem that's been discovered with Ohio's electronic machines."

As though that's supposed to mean there weren't any errors and there wasn't any fraud!


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:24 PM

More spin from the corporate media:
ABC news just commented on the disparity between the exit polls and the overall outcome of the election. They're saying there were problems with the polls, that they oversampled women, oversampled early voters, etc., and that Democrats are usually more willing to be interviewed.

This is IMO a feeble attempt at a whitewash.
First, exit polls have a long history of being extremely accurate in predicting election results, and the poll results cited at Randi Rhodes's site were not just the early poll results.
(The TV news has been dangling poll results in front of the viewers for MONTHS and analyzing them as though they are assumed to be done properly. NOW, when they don't like what seems to be their meaning, they're all of a sudden suspicious of their validity! Exit polls are MORE useful than pre-election polls, because everyone polled already HAS VOTED.)

More importantly, -- HELLO! -- it's not a question of how accurate the polls are. The question is
Why were the polls more accurate when paper ballots were used than when people voted via electronic machines that had no paper trail or other means of doing a recount?

Geez, Jennings!

Genie


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:28 PM

What I don't understand is that all this known KNOWN before the election. Why didn't anyone do anything to prevent it from happening? You would have thought the democrats would have insisted on machines other than Diebold. Everyone (at least outside of the U.S.) knew this was going to happen and yet everyone inside, kept debating about who was the 'better' candidate. Fat lot of difference it makes.

Its time to wake up, America.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:47 PM

Zip it, dianavan. LOTS of us in the US have been talking about it.


More Thougts on the Vote Discrepancy


I remember reading already at the time of the 2002 election that if electronic voting machines were used to defraud an election, the way you would be able to tell is that there would be a mismatch between the exit polls and the reported vote.

"Two states are critical now: Florida and Ohio. Both states make significant use of electronic voting machines. Both states have Bush ahead, even though exit polls indicated a definite Kerry victory.
Because electronic voting machines do not leave a paper trail, we simply have to take the word of the people and corporations that program the machines that they accurately register votes. But why should we take their word for it? Elections are based on transparency, and there is nothing less transparent than a computer running proprietary software. "

He goes on to say that the one thing Kerry must not do, and that is concede before this has been investigated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:17 PM

Uh-huh. "Take the word of the corporations." With no paper trail. Rightttt! Big business will always cheat if there's a big payoff to be made and no way to prove that they cheated. Always. It's their way of life. Only the end result counts, and it's only "wrong" if you get caught.

You've been robbed, America. Votes without a paper trail is sheer madness if you want fair elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:50 PM

Little Hawk, we know that. We've been talking about it. We've been writing letters to the editors. Several states and communities within states have, in the last year, literally forbidden touch-screen voting until the system can be modified to accept a paper trail. We are very aware of the pitfalls. You may remember that it has been said here on the Cat that if Bush 'wins', we will have no way of knowing whether it was an honest election. And now it seems that we are face to face with the worst case scenario.

So what would YOU do or have done? And what do we do next?
Beating this dead horse won't make it rise again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:51 PM

You're right, LH, and Ebbie's right that lots of people HAVE been talking -- SCREAMING -- about it ever since 2001.

One Congressman -- Ken Holt, I think -- even introduced a bill a year or two ago to REQUIRE a recountable paper trail for all electronic voting machines. The bill had the support of over half the House Of Representatives, including both parties, but the Republicans who controlled the relevant committee refused to allow it to come up for vote!   That's the kind of concern TPTB in the Republican Party of today have for democracy and the will of the people!

Dianavan, the biggest roadblock to getting anything done about this has been the corporat-owned media. They've been informed of the situation all along and begged to give it the air time and emphasis it deserves, but they've pretty much kept saying "We';; get to it later." Then when they do give it any air time, they treat it like it's about as important as the coverage they give to Kerry's windsurfing or Bush's golf game. The reports I saw about the issue on TV took the attitude that as long as no problems were KNOWN, we should assume everything would be okey-dokey.

BTW, Dianavan, Diebold is not the only culprit. The machine in Ohio that was just found to yield a ridiculous result was not a Diebold machine.

Dianavan -- "Everyone (at least outside of the U.S.) knew this was going to happen and yet everyone inside, kept debating about who was the 'better' candidate. Fat lot of difference it makes. "

Exactly! That's why I'm abandoning all talk of what the voters' issues were and why "the Democrats lost." WE DON'T FRIGGIN' KNOW THAT THEY DID!   Unless and until we get a full, accurate vote count, doing post-mortems on what the results mean is WORSE than FUTILE.

There's mounting evidence that Kerry WON, as probably did some Democrat Senate and House candidates -- maybe even governors, etc. IF that's the case, for the Dems to try to heed the "Republican base's message" would be counterproductive!



BTW, that computer "patch" that was discovered in the black box machine in Georgia that robbed Max Cleland of his Senate seat --
its name (on the cyber folder) was "Rob Georgia!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:18 PM

You are one "twisted little sister!"

PLEASE!!! read over your thread postings.....before you post again.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:48 PM

Well, I've been sayin' it for months. Dielbold, E.S.S. (or what evr Diebold's Cwo's bother's company is...) are having their way with democracy...

Throw in a few pollsters to say that "morals" was on the top of voters concernes and you havea somewaht believable story... Operative word here is "story"...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:10 AM

I've been thinking about how I would rig the machines IF I had the ability. I wouldn't add a fixed number of votes onto a candidate because, at the lowest level, its too easy for the votes to outnumber the electors, as mentioned for "one Ohio precinct" above.
My first inclination would be either to count every vote for the person I didn't want to win at, say, 0.95 of a vote and the desired winner at 1 for each vote, but any audit investigating the software (should it come to it) would immediately declare using non-integer counts of the number of votes suspect. More subtle would be to count each nondesired vote as 95 and each desired vote at 100 and divide by 100 somewhere. However, as the machines use a mechanical tachometer, I understand, this would also be difficult.

No, the easiest and safest way is to either omit a proportion of the nondesired vote or, better, transfer it to the desired vote (this is better because it would mean the total number of votes cast equals the number of voters, allowing another audit test to be passed.)

All this is, I suppose, fairly obvious. But what you could then do is ask what proportion would have to be transferred to make one state (shall we say Florida?) give the same result for the reported vote as the exit poll. You could then try exactly that same proportion of transfer in all the other states and see how well they then match the exit poll. If they were much closer than the 'real' results, the evidence of something going on would be extremely strong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:31 AM

I suppose I'd better point out that the hypothesis being tested is that the SAME proportion was being transferred in each case. Since it wouldn't be very difficult to transfer a different proportion for each machine, a negative result does not show there is a problem, merely that the specific hypothesis is wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Rasmus
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:29 AM

Gee. The electronic machine I used was not black.
How many of them are black?
Why are people calling them black?

Sounds like a racist plot to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Jessy
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:41 AM

Dammit! Why do folks call anything that is evil black?

That is social injustice! Those evil boxes that stole the election form Kerry should be called white boxes.

The Rev


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Rangell
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:46 AM

I insist they call them Afro boxes.

Chuck R


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:57 AM

Genie, I don't have access to a fax machine right now. Do you know if there is any other way I can give my support to Nader's efforts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Gitmo
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:59 AM

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Maybe we should ask Haliburton.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:06 AM

Oh, go slug back another Coors, guys.

Okay, Ebbie, here's what I think you (Americans, I mean) should do. Gather as much evidence as possible on the exit polls as compared to the final vote tally...and then compare the discrepancies between ridings where there were voting machines and riding where there were paper ballots. Have a look at what I mean here:

paper ballots versus machines - big difference!

The results speak for themselves. It's ground for a much bigger problem than Watergate.

What you should do is dig up all the evidence possible comparing exit polls to final voting tallies, and pointing up the gross differences in final results in the computerized voting districts as opposed to the others. Publicize it. And start indicting people for it. Contact your congressmen to do this.

Given that you have a corporate-controlled media that has apparently been instructed to soft-pedal or ignore this subject, it won't be easy, but surely Ralph Nader and the Democrats between them have enough guts and clout to do something about it? After all, they've been robbed blind, so why wouldn't they do something about it?

I wondered about those voting tallies on election night, because they were not in line with pre-election polling, and because there is hardly any population in the World today that would freely elect George Bush after what his administration has done in the past 4 years. It's utterly extraordinary that he could get re-elected, given his record. Well, the fact is, he didn't...in truth. He didn't the first time, and he didn't this time either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 12:33 PM

Genie --

On what do you base your accusation of election fraud or miscounting in New Hampshire?

There are 3 types of ballots in NH -- the two machines, Accuvote with ovals to be filled in, and Optech which requires filling in the center part of an arrow. Coding around the edges of the ballot and in the positioning of the ovals or arrows is what enables them to be tabulated by machine. The physical paper ballot with the filled in oval or arrow is archived in case of a recount.

I've worked for the company that prints the ballots and I know the precision of printing and trimming, proofreading, closeness of working with the Secretary of State's office, and testing of the ballots in the machines prior to election day. I also know the Secretary of State and Assistant Secretary of State's dedication to fair elections and of the continuing to use ballots that provide a paper trail.

A substantial amount of towns in New Hampshire, including Nottingham where I vote, use a paper ballot where the voter manually makes an X in a square. These ballots are hand counted.

The ballots in New Hampshire are straight forward and easy for the voter to understand.

Where's the problem? There are most likely problems and unfair practices in other states -- especially Ohio and Florida, but I don't see it in NH.

Linn

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:11 PM

"the machine did it. " To paraphrase the NRA, "machines don't defraud voters,
people do". Jeb Bush, W Odell (chairman of Diebold) and Ken Blackwell take a bow!

Anybody want to guess how smooth the elections will go in Iraq (if we can't get it right in our own country)?

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 08:44 PM

Well, Bat Goddess, do the machines in NH tally with the paper audit trail, or not?

And what is the third type - you say three types and then cite two machines that do have paper trails?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 08:52 PM

DMcG

If I were trying to rig the vote by doctoring the machines, I would select the larger population districts that I expected to WIN, and just add enough votes in addition to take the entire state. THAT is what I see in MD, PA, and other places. No one will question that Kerry won there- but by how many votes? If it is enough, it gives the entire state to him. Just a few districts in each state, and little chance that anyone can show that there were more votes cast than people voting...

But of course, no one would consider that anyone other than Bush might be playing with the numbers...


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:13 PM

And, btw, it is usually the LOCAL jurisdiction that decides what machines to use. ( at least in MD, and the other places I have knowledge of.) Prince Georges County, Montgomery County, and Baltimore City are all SOLID Democratic areas- If there is any fixing of the machines, it HAS to be by the Democrats- no-one else has the access or control.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:25 PM

BB: Hubba Hubba. You got it right. They could have been blue boxes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:49 PM

bb, what is your opinion on the use of electronic voting machines without having the possibility of a paper trail? By anybody, in any 'free' country. (That word is asterisked because dictatorships have often gone through the motions of election.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:15 PM

I think there needs to be AT LEAST two, INDEPENDENT means to verify the count. I did not like the present electronic machines, I do not like the idea of voting by email, and I do not think that there will be any way to stop it- the LOCAL incumbents get too much of a benifit to stop them.

And in my state, that means the Democratic Party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Herby
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 10:04 AM

What was wrong with the old system?

It was not managed correctly. The management should have been fixed instead of replacing it with a supposedly "foolproof" system. Get rid of the fools not the system.

Who wanted the old sytem replaced anyway? The losers of the 2000 election?

Now, when they lost the 2004 election, they bitch about the new system. Would they be bitching if they had won?

Herby the love bug


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Ragnar
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 10:49 AM

Is anybody scrutinizing the Evil Black Box voting machines in the blue states?

Could it be that just as many machine votes went to Kerry?

RAG


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 11:10 AM

Dishonest elections are bad for this country no matter who wins. So I'm sure Ragnar and Herby the love bug will agree with me when I say we need to audit all of the paperless voting systems, and make sure that all voting precincts have verifiable voting systems in place for the next election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Nerd
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM

beardedbruce doesn't know what he is talking about. "Just a few districts?" In PA, MD, etc, roughly the same number of districts went for Kerry as for Bush. The Kerry districts happen to be closer together (in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, for example). But a district serves a given number of voters, at least in PA. So you would have to jimmy an awful lot of districts to get the results bb is suggesting--the same number that Bush would have to jimmy, in fact.

BB is acting as though Philadelphia used one voting machine or counted as one district or something. Preposterous! And he's spouting this nonsense on several different threads, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Herby
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 12:46 PM

Didn't see any answers.
What do we need paperless systems for?

H


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 12:56 PM

Herby, we want honest and verifiable voting practices. And yes, I would be promoting this even if Kerry won. I'm not a partisan voter and I would like to live in a democracy. We don't want paperless voting systems. We want voting systems that leave a paper trail and that can be verified. Punch card ballots are stupid and in some states illegal. But paper ballots that use a pen to mark the vote are an excellent system, as long as members of both parties are involved in the counting process every step of the way, as long as voters can use provisional ballots when necessary, and as long as all votes are counted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 04:29 PM

Doesn't matter where you live. Hackers can rig the election any way they like.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Stewart
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM

Here's a simple verifiable electronic *open* voting system. To learn more and try out a prototype go to The Open Voting Consortium. web site. And federal legislation should mandate such a verifiable system in all national elections.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

________________________________________________

Do you trust black box voting machines?

Over one-third of the nation used electronic voting machines in Tuesday's Presidential election that have no audit trail and cannot effectively be recounted. Discrepancies between the exit polls and the reported election results are hard to investigate because there is no independent paper record of all the individual votes. And those electronic voting machines have inner workings that are trade secrets and the reports of the certification tests for them are also trade secrets.

If you believe that voting systems should be open and publicly inspectable, then please join the Open Voting Consortium at http://www.openvotingconsortium.org The Open Voting Consortium is a group dedicated to the promotion of *open* voting systems. We recently demonstrated a prototype system that was called a "Touch

Screen Holy Grail" by the San Jose Mercury News. We helped pass SB1438 in California to require voting machines to have a paper trail. And we helped pass ACR242 in California that directed the study of using open source in electronic voting machines.

In the coming months, we plan to promote similar legislation in other states. We also plan to continue development of open voting systems. Help begin a process to transform the voting system from a fraud-prone, blackbox, proprietary, expensive, idiosyncratic, unreliable system to a technically sound, accurate, secure, inexpensive, uniform and open voting system. Visit the Open Voting Consortium at http://www.openvotingconsortium.org and donate or become a supporting member today.

Best regards, Arthur

Arthur M. Keller, Ph.D., 3881 Corina Way, Palo Alto, CA 94303-4507


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 06:02 PM

Thanks for posting that, Stewart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

Nerd,

As usual, you are incorrect. I said counties- The level at which the choice of voting macnine is made. EACH COUNTY uses a machine in all the "districts" (precincts in MD) of that county. In Maryland, at least- You might actually be right in PA, but that does not negate the point of my post.

SO, perhaps you should reconsider just who here is presenting nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Metchosin
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 06:43 PM

I still don't understand the stampede to electronic voting of any kind.   What is so difficult about putting an X or check on a paper ballot, putting it in a box and then opening the box and counting the marks in the presence of scrutineers of the various political parties? The number of votes to count too large? Then provide more polling stations in the area. Perhaps I'm missing something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 07:00 PM

Nerd-

My apologies- I DID use the word "districts" in a post. The maps I had posted from CNN were by county, but as I said, here the county election board determines the method of voting FOR ALL areas in that county. ANd the maps I posted from CNN were by county, as far as I know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 07:22 PM

"And he's spouting this nonsense on several different threads, too. "

my post that I tthink you refer to:

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:17 PM

PA by county DEMS win, of course...

MD by county.... DEMs win, of course...

NY state by county... DEMs win. of course...

Michigan by county... DEMs win, of course...


It seems to me that if there is an indication of fraud, a good case could be made that the Democrats really lost by a much larger margin. Or do you really think that the Dems would not stoop to such tactics?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 07:30 PM

sorry, the blue clickies did not copy... see the original for the links to maps.


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Subject: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 09:33 PM


 

 

Info and links re Election Audit Demand and "Count Every Vote"

http://www.redhottopic.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=215&t=32419&st=720#

Responding to a few questions that have been thrown my way or thrown
out in general:

CarolC, If you don't have access to a fax machine right now and want support to Nader's efforts, you can send him a check.  I think you can get the address from therandirhodesshow.com or from Bev Harris at www.blackboxvoting.org.

But it may be as important to support Bev Harris's FOIA suits as to
support Ralph's investigation.   She's mounting a major FOIA
suit for access to the "proprietary" source code in several states and
really needs contributions -- even if only a buck or two apiece -- and
you can use PayPal if you like.

CONTACT: Bev Harris

Office: 425-228-7131

E-mail:

blackboxvoting@aol.com

Location: Renton, WA

Time Zone: PST

www.blackboxvoting.org

 

 

LittleHawk - "What you should do is dig up all the evidence possible comparing exit polls to final voting tallies, and pointing up the gross differences in final results in the computerized voting districts as opposed to the others.  Publicize it.  And start indicting people for it. Contact your congressmen to do this."

Little Hawk, you're right about gathering evidence and contacting Senators and Representatives and the media about it.  One person who wants as many e-mails as she can get about this is

Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-TX.     
Sheila Jackson Lee's website

She will be bringing the issue up in Congress and needs these emails to bolster her effort -- not just stuff about e-voting, but ALL problems people had getting registered, voting, etc.

Bat Goddess, I'm not sure why Ralph singled out New Hampshire
for his first 'target."  One report I read said that the exit polls and election results in NH were very close.  It may be that it was only certain counties that used paperless machines and the results seemed odd there.

But take a look at the graph here:

 Election
results vs. Exit Polls / Paper ballots vs. e-voting

But it is not just the e-voting machines that are suspect, it's also
the electronic machines that COUNT paper ballots such as optical scan machines. 
Yes, if there's a paper trail, a hand recount could be done, but if the
"results" are not CLOSE, states usually won't do that.  It's still
important for the source code to be public.

And, Goddess, DMcG, bearded bruce, etc., the election officials can be as fair-minded as Socrates, but if the source code is "proprietary"
to the machine manufacturer -- which it is in most cases so far --
even the election officials can't prevent e-cheating.  Only the companies, like Diebold, Sequoia, ES&S, etc., have access to the "innards" of the electronic machines.

 

Herby, you asked "What was wrong with the old system?"

Plenty, but sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

In this case, HAVA (Help America Vote Act) was intended to make the
election results faster and more clear-cut -- which in many ways has happened. 
Only problem: Congress didn't FUND HAVA properly, so it ended up being
implemented in a half-assed way and on the cheap.  (At least that's what the pols would LIKE us to believe was the reason for not requiring recountable paper ballots.  As to why they didn't require public source codes, I DK if that was negligence or deliberately intended to allow cheating.)  I think HAVA also didn't have "teeth."  We need new and stronger legislation.

And, oh, BTW, just wait till a popular Republican Senator loses to a
Democrat upstart in a Dem-controlled state via an unverifiable e-voting
machine.   We'll soon be getting bipartisan support for a paper trail.  LOL

CarolC  -"paper ballots that use a pen to mark the vote
are an excellent system, as long as members of both parties are involved in the counting process every step of the way, as long as voters can use provisional ballots when necessary, and as long as all votes are counted."

Ah, yes, Carol.  An important string of "ifs."

It seems Warren Co., Ohio, at the last minute announced it would keep the press and all other observers away from the vote-counting room -- "for security reasons" (related to terrorism threats).  [I saw that kind of thing coming the first time I heard Bush & Cheney talking about the need for "extra security" for this year's election.]

More importantly, I've learned that MOST states DO NOT count all
the votes
.  Unless specific races are very tight, they often don't even bother counting absentee ballots (including military ballots) and provisional ballots.

There's a move to require all the votes to be counted this year, especially in the "swing states."

 Count Every Vote.org

Other important sites:

 OpenVotingConsortium.org

 Article on Voting problems (verifiedvoting.org)


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 10:46 PM

Oops! That last post was mine. I switched over to Netscape to do my post formatting, and I didn't realize I wasn't logged in on Netscape.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 11:38 PM

Very good. Thank you, Genie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Herby
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:29 AM

So why do we have paperless voting machines? Who asked for them?

Herby the Love Bug


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Metchosin
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 01:26 AM

Genie, I still don't understand. Canada is a paper and pencil ballot country whose voting system seems to be fairly straight and those "ifs" have never appeared to be a problem.

Where and specifically what problems have occurred in the past in the US with paper ballots and pencils? Do you have any ideas what, other than the larger scale, would cause these problems in the US and not in Canada?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Kim C
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 11:13 AM

If Kerry had won, would we be asking for an investigation of the voting process?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 05:28 PM

Thanks for confirming that your point about the number of districts was nonsense, just as I said it was, bb.

My point is, just because the county board decides what TYPE of machine is used does not mean they can easily fix an election. To do so they actually have to rig all those machines. Not so easy, especially when they are not the paperless kind (which they are not in PA). Remember, the Republicans are allowed two poll-watchers PER DISTRICT (thousands in Philly) to make sure that the vote count was reasonable. I haven't heard of a single complaint from them in PA, except an erroneous one about machines with votes on them at the start (turns out they were looking at the wrong counter, and the non-partisan Philadelphia election watching group known as the Committee of Seventy cleared the machine for use). In PA, the vote counting is done right there in the polling place at the end of the day, with Dem and Repub lawyers looking on, then called in to the elections commission. Again, I know of no complaints from Philly's republican poll-watchers.

Conversely, there are many complaints from both Ohio and Florida. Keith Olbermann was talking about running a story on it today or tomorrow on countdown--and he's not exactly a raging leftie! In one Ohio office, the poll-watchers were kept out of the room because--get this--the DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY called and said there was a terrorism risk so the building had to be locked down while the votes were counted. So basically the Secret Police had control of the ballot boxes...real Democracy, folks!

The Cincinatti Times broke that story. I'm late for my train, but I'll post the link later tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:20 PM

One of the articles cited in one of the websites makes the point that the founding fathers created a scenario whereby functions that are for the public good should be the responsibility of the government---i.e. public safety, health (that came later), etc; What, pray tell, is more important than transparent elections (the article goes on to say). That should be the function of the gov't and not left to private for profit companies who's results cannot be audited. The article goes on to say that in (heaven help us) Germany has the most honest and simple way---paper ballots---hand counted with supervision by government empoyees. The cost---less than all this high tech stuff--just overtime for human beings.

It seems to me that this new unaudited computer voting has the possibility---if it has not already---to make LBJ's ballot stuffing in his early years in TX look almost amateurish.

Now I do not claim to know if there was hanky-panky in OH or FL or anywhere else. But, the perception surely suggests such. My dissapointment in the Dems not following through on their original--every vote counts and every vote will be counted---saddens me. More than "sadden"--upsets me.


Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:22 PM

All I have to say is, if they're not going to count all the votes, why bother to vote at all? After all the "your vote counts" garbage...


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:03 PM

Every vote should be counted, including the votes of Americans in other countries. If not, why bother.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:49 PM

Hey, the computer ate my last post, too!

In brief this time, then. Olbermann ran the story on tonight's countdown. Plenty of irregularities in Ohio, and I was only wrong about one detail: it was the Cincinatti Inquirer that broke the Homeland Security story. There were many other irregularities in both Ohio and Florida, where counties with 77% Democratic majorities are voting 80% for Bush, and only where Optical Scanners are being used. In every other county, the majority of registered voters carried the county.    Fishy enough yet? 6 congressmen are calling for an investigation from the GAO and the FBI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:54 PM

Metchosin , to put is plainly, I think there are only two reasons why the US insists on complicated voting machines and electronic counting rather than paper ballots that are hand counted.
1. The recent obsession with immediate results. (Though, as we saw in 2000, the high-tech, complex methods -- differing from county to county -- actually delayed the final result.
2. High-tech and mechanical voting machines make it easier for pols to cheat. The people who are in power don't really want that power threatened by anything as trivial as the will of the people.
(Had the Democrats been in charge of Ohio and Florida, they might have cheated as much as it looks like the Republicans did. Richard Daly and Lyndon Johnson were experts at that. But this year the Republicans were in control of most of the "swing" states.)
3. The general cultural fascination with all things high-tech. (E.g., we now use expensive, polluting and noisy leaf blowers instead of inexpensive rakes and elbow grease.)

A simple solution to the problem, which would preserve states' rights, would be to pass a law requiring
a. all votes for the Presidency and maybe for for all federal offices to be cast on a STANDARD, simple PAPER ballot
b. all votes to be counted by nonpartisan government workers -- with all parties who have candidates on the ballot allowed to participate in or observe the countig
c. all ballots to be preserved, securely, until all candidates and parties represented on the ballots give written permission for their destruction.

This kind of law will never pass as long as there's such a lopsided Congress and a SCOTUS with somewhat questionable integrity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:37 PM

Since we don't have a list of "related threads" at the top, here's a sister thread: Bev Harris (blackboxvoting.org)


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:57 AM

Thanks Genie, I think I have a somewhat clearer picture now. I believe the observation of the voting and the counting is crucial and therein lies some of the the difference between the voting procedures of the two countries. I didn't realize that scrutinizing the vote was not a standard practice in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,The Mudcat artist
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 08:16 AM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/scales4.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Herby
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 08:52 AM

Does anybody know who asked for paperless voting machines?

Why do we have them?

Herby the Love Bug


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,MIT math professor
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 10:08 AM

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=405


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:41 AM

Math professor, thanks for that article. It deals with several aspects of flaws and sources of possible cheating or error in our current election system (or lack thereof). While some data -- e.g., comparison of e-voting vs. other systems -- may not be statistically signifiicant, that's only part of the story. There are many aspects to the reported abnormalities and out-and-out abuses. That's why a comprehensive investigation of all irregularities and potential election fraud -- including attempts to disenfranchise minority voters -- is needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,indieman
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:37 PM

blackboxvoting.org is down. Does anyone know what's going on with that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:06 PM

Hey indieman! I started a thread for the address info. Hopefully it'll help some:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=75394


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:13 PM

We have paperless voting machines because:

1. It enables the people at the top to easily fix the vote with no paper trail.

2. It secures their buddies who manufacture those voting machines a lucrative contract.

It is true that the Democrats were quite clever at vote fraud in various past elections. They probably actually lost in 1960, for example. The Republicans are also clever at vote fraud. Give them paperless machines, and you can guarantee that they will cheat. Either one of them will. The main cheating will occur in the crucial swing states. It's a game. They play, the public loses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 11:52 PM

Little Hawk, you speak truth.

That's exactly why the American people MUST speak out against insane notions such as:
-- e-voting with no paper ballot trail
-- state laws (e.g., Florida's) that don't allow a recount unless the oficial results are "close"
-- destruction of provisional ballots -- ANY ballots or raw data -- for a period of at least 6 years after an election, or until ALL interested parties have signed off on their destruction
-- the use of "proprietary" software for recording and/or tabulating votes
-- ANY use of modems for transmission of precinct dats
-- any non-transparent procedures for ballot counting
--overtly partisan people, e.g., Katherine Harris, Glenda Hood, Ken Blackwell, being in charge of state election policies and procedures
-- and a few other idiotic notions.

Hackers & Hanky Panky in the 2004 election


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 11:05 PM

Looks like the machines ate some California votes too!   Diebold agreed to pay about $2.5 million to Alameda Co. to settle a lawsuit brought by blackboxvoting.org's Bev Harris. DK the details, but apparently the infamous Diebold machines messed up some election results in that county, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 06:16 PM

I wonder how much they got paid for each false vote?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 11:24 PM

Quote:

"How could the exit polls in this year's presidential election have diverged so drastically from the results that election officials and the media announced?
Professor Steven Freeman, a statistician at the University of Pennsylvania, offers a disturbing answer. Looking at the exit polls and announced results in Ohio, Florida, and Pennsylvania, he concludes that the odds against such an accidental discrepancy in all three states together was 250 million to one.

"As much as we can say in social science that something is impossible, it is impossible that the discrepancies between predicted and actual vote counts in the three critical battleground states of the 2004 election could have been due to chance or random error."

"Read Dr. Freeman's well-reasoned, well-written argument, and make up your own mind. -- "

CARP


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:18 PM

Thanks, Ebbie.

Y'know, the law is in many ways an arse. It allows eye-witness reports as "sound" evidence, but usually rejects some of the strongest kinds of scientific evidence and arguments as "evidence," as long as something isn't "conclusive proof."

In this case, we have the TOTAL ABSURDITY of allowing UNVERIFIABLE vote counts to stand unchallenged -- i.e., the state puts its blind trust in them -- but will probably not (if history is any judge) allow such a compelling statistical case as Freeman's to be considered as "evidence" at all!

Mind you, juries often convict people of murder on much weaker statistical (circumstantial) cases than Freeman's.

Isn't it interesting how much credence the press and the candidates give to polls when it's to their advantage? Pre-election polls are much less valuable than exit polls, but now everyone's awfully quick to discredit exit polls that don't match the numbers generated by seriously flawed vote tabulation processes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:25 PM

Hell, we waged war against Iraq on flimsier evidence than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:50 PM

I think this part from the truthout site is very interesting:

"Last fall, international foundations sponsored an exit poll in the former Soviet Republic of Georgia during a parliamentary election. On Election Day, the pollsters projected a victory for the main opposition party. When the sitting governmnent counted the votes, however, it announced that its own slate of candidates had won. Supporters of the opposition stormed the Parliament, and the president, Eduard A. Shevardnadze, resigned under pressure from the United States and Russia."


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 06:09 PM

Oh, but, CarolC, our election is different. It's our bat and ball, if I may stir the metaphors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM

Yes, but it was their ball and bat, as well.

If the opposition in the U.S. stormed congress, don't you think that Canada, France, Germany, etc. might exert some pressure on Bush to resign?

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:34 PM

We don't seem to have that kind of system. Short of impeachment - fat chance of that with the GOP in firm control of both house and senate - there isn't ever much likelihood of forcing out a president. Protests and uprisings could convince a president not to run for re-election- like LBJ - but Dubya is in the lame-duck phase anyway. Even with Nixon, it took two years- and impeachable offenses were already an issue before his re-election.

.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 01:28 AM

How many years of 'trying to change the system from within'...?

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 01:20 PM

Well, we're at 228 years now. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 04:15 PM

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE- all of you continue to think that you won the last election and that it was stolen from you by fraud at the ballot box.    I beg you to continue thinking that for the next 4 years.   Ignore those silly articles in Time and Newsweek about what an inept campaign Kerry waged. Ignore those moral value questions which defeated gay marriagne in 11 of 11 states.   Continue believing you won the election.   Don't ever change.   You may want to save these e-mails to explain why you will have lost in 2008 as well.

And finally continue to believe that exit polls are far more accurate than actually counting the vote.   George Orwell will be proud of you. I would suggest, bases on this theory that there is no need for an actual vote in 2008.   If polling is more accurate, than whoever is ahead in the poles should be declared the winner and we can all avoid waiting in lines an having to actually count the vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 05:00 PM

"
Bearded Bruce:

Ohio and Florida were expected to win for Kerry particularly in the heavilly populated Democratic counties where they had a shortage of voting machines to cause the long lines to suppress the vote.

They did it better than your suggestion.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 05:39 PM

Larry K, what most of are asking for is just that:

COUNT EVERY VOTE

That means:
1. Don't blindly trust the "count" done by a machine with proprietary software, or votes counted behind closed doors by partisans (e.g., in Warren County, OH).
Nobody is suggesting we use exit polls -- despite their long history of great accuracy -- to determine the outcome. But when observable methodolody yields results highly discrepant from an unverified "outcome," it's time for verification of the count.

2. Every eligible voter should be allowed, to the extent possible, equal access to the ballot box.
   That means you don't have a lot more voting machines per capita in one district than in others. That means no one's registration is deemed invalid based on trivial technicalities (e.g., failure to check a box that does not add any informatin beyond what's already beedn given. That means you don't disenfranchise 10 legal voters just so you can maybe prevent one ex-felon from voting. That means you must have enough provisiona ballots available to meet the needs of the precinct. That means you don't make phone calls and send out literature falsely threatening citizens with various sorts of legal problems if they dare to try to vote. And that means that low-income counties shouldn't get less reliable machines than wealthier counties.

Who the heck knows who won this election? The process was so frought with error, fraud, intimidation, and just plain untestable results that it's crazy to be analyzing the policy reasons why one candidate or another "won."

Genie


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:55 PM

LarryK just shows his ignorance every time he opens his mouth:

"If polling is more accurate, than whoever is ahead in the poles should be declared the winner and we can all avoid waiting in lines an having to actually count the vote."

Exit Polling can only be done AFTER we stand in lines, dumbass. THOSE are the accurate polls.

According to independent analysts, including one here at the U of PA, it is essentially a statistical impossibility for the exit polls to have been that far wrong by random chance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Rick
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:25 PM

Ate TN votes too, apparently. It just seems strange that at least 90% of my friends, relatives and work acquaintences claim to have been for Kerry or at least against Bush. I guess I must be hanging around with the right crowd and that there must be a lot more uninformed or brainless dolts in this state than I had realized. I have yet to comprehend this, even in a nice southern redneck state such as this. What were people thinking? How can someone vote for that man (dubbya) and still face his friends, neighbors and loved ones the next day? And what kind of morons do they conceive us to be in other countries right now. God/Goddess help us!

Or is it, as I fear, so many voted for him because he has our poor disillusioned troops over there killing and torturing Arabs and Muslims? I so, what have we become as a nation. I shudder to think!

So, I am an ex-resident of Canada... no problem moving back there except the winters tend to be a bit nippy.

Blessings all,

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,tiabanjo@yahoo.com
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 05:07 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 05:09 PM

link to study to which Nerd refers


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:49 PM

One election result has been overturned. I can't remember where they said it was, but it was for something fairly local like county commissioner or something. But that election result has been changed from Republican to Democrat because of a computer problem that resulted in an incorrect counting of the votes.

Also, I heard today that the Green Party has raised the necessary $100,000 for a recount in the state of Ohio.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 02:59 PM

Interesting articl here. Seems Ralph Nader has requested a vote recount in some of New Hampshire's precincts.

"Most people would have expected John Kerry's performance at the polls this year to be similar to Al Gore's in 2000. And in 229 out of 300 voting districts, or wards as they're called in New Hampshire, that was the case. Kerry either matched the percentage of votes that Gore received in 2000 in those wards or did better than Gore. But in 71 wards, Briggs found, Bush did better in 2004 than he did in 2000.

"When Briggs broke the 71 wards down by voting equipment -- separating wards into those that used traditional paper ballots and those that used optical-scan machines -- she discovered that 73 percent of the wards used optical-scan equipment, while only 27 percent used traditional paper ballots. Even more interesting was the breakdown per brand of voting equipment. New Hampshire wards used optical-scan equipment made by Diebold Election Systems and Election Systems & Software. About 62 percent of the wards with anomalous results used Diebold machines. "

Checking New Hampshire's Votes


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 03:48 PM

Nerd: I apologize for being so stupid that I thought you were intelligent enough to understand my satire.   I promise to never make that mistake again. I will also try to use small words as much as possible to not confuse you.

The exit polls should be the accurate polls but they weren't this elelction. Dick Morris feels there should be a congressional investigation about fraud on these exit polls.   PS:   Zogby and Gallup weren't any better.   The Zogby final poll showed Kerry with 311 electoral votes.   And people paid money for that research?

Genie:   We basically agree that every vote should be counted. That includes all military votes as well.   Something the democrats try to prevent every year.   I am also concerned with the Detroit Free Press runs headlines about voted fraud from democrats with registrations of dead and non existant people.   I am also concerned about Philadelphia which had 2,300 votes counted before the polls opened.   The mayor explained they were left over from 2002 and they forgot to clear them.   And the dog ate my homework.

If Diebolt systems were so easy to manipulate, the democrats would have stolen the election years ago.   According to Diebolt employees, they are self contained and impossible to hack or manipulate.

But hang on to your fantasy.    If it gets you through the day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: DougR
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:38 PM

Hilarous!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Nerd
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:53 PM

LarryK,

Don't flatter yourself. If I did not recognize your "satire" it's because it was completely unfunny.

Your apology for being so damn stupid, however, is accepted.

The problem with your claims is that the only evidence that can invalidate the exit polls is a complete vote count, which has still not occurred. "Overvotes," "undervotes," and all those nightmarish bullshit categories created by our obsessive need for instant gratification (computers counting votes is just a bad idea, and serves no purpose except to speed up the news cycle) ensures that we don't have an accurate vote count. Since we KNOW the vote count cannot be accurate, why assume the exit polls were not accurate? What evidence can you supply, besides the vote counts, which everyone knows are faulty? I have supplied references to a statistical analysis, and TIA supplied the link. I'll bet you're too scared or closed-minded to read it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 11:19 PM

This story is just breaking, and as with all blog swirls, could be total crap, but I'm going to track it because it is scarey if true...


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 11:51 PM

Well, here's the affidavit if anyone's interested;

http://www.rawstory.com/images/pdfs/CC_Affidavit_120604.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:07 AM

If there is any WAY to cheat on voting results and get away with it (theoretically, I mean)...it WILL be done. By either Republicans or Democrats. It will. Depend on it. Computerized voting machines with no paper trail are a marvelous opportunity for cheating. All you have to do is purchase someone's services to alter the softward to change the result. That someone can either be at the top echelon of the company which manufactures the voting machines...or part way down the chain.

To imagine they would NOT try to cheat under such circumstances would be naive. To imagine that everyone in the companies making the voting machines and software is so honest and morally upright as NOT to be willing to accept a payoff for arranging such cheating would be even more naive.

There simply HAS to be a verifiable paper trail on every vote cast in an election. And, believe me, even that leaves room for cheating, because paper ballots can be forged, "lost", or destroyed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:10 AM

99


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:11 AM

It's mine!


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:13 PM

Little Hawk, you're absolutely right!

It should not be necessary to prove that someone DID tamper with the electronic vote count. The point is that if cheating of this magnitude CAN occur and be difficult or impossible to detect, THERE'S SOMETHING HORRIBLY WRONG WITH THE PROCESS.

No voter should be disenfranchised by making it extraorinarily difficult to vote. Attempts to suppress voter turnout through intimidation, deception, etc., should be treated as the serious crimes that they are -- with rigorous prosecution and with penalties strong enough to discourage such activities.
Ballots should never be discarded (destroyed) until years after an election. They clearly should not be destroyed until the parties involved in the election have had opportunity to mount legal challenges to their disqualification if they desire.

Not only are paper ballots necessary, but hand recounts should be available as a remedy in any case a candidate or party has reason to believe the machine count may be in error (provided they pay for the recount, if the initial results are not close). In fact, hand recounting of a scientific sample of ballots should be done routinely as a check on the electronic results.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:23 PM

I hope that people in the USA can learn something from what happened in the Ukraine over the past few weeks.

Powerful people do set out to steal elections. And if you want to stop that happening it takes courage and determination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:26 PM

This story (bloke who claims to have worked for a computer company, and actually wrote vote untraceable vote switching software for a Republican politician in Forida) is popping up in several places now. Links are here....

The bloke (Clinton Curtis) has posted the code here...

He challenges computer geeks to look at it and state whether it would work or not. He claims it does. He says he gave a CD with a detailed report and the code to his boss (who was working for a Republican pol. in FL) who told him to shut up and forget about it.

All a hoax? Possibly.

Should this be examined thoroughly? Absolutely.

Am I speaking in Rumsfeldian? You bet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 03:54 PM

A very scarey compilation (fully-referenced) of all of the irregularities appears in Rolling Stone, and is reprinted here.

When I see it all in one place, I (no conspiracy nut, but a thorough *gasp* skeptic), it's hard not to arrive at a pretty obvious conclusion. If this is true, what's left but revolution?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:57 AM

This part here is especially telling (emphasis mine)...


    "What's more, Freeman found, the greatest disparities between exit polls and the official vote count came in Republican strongholds. In precincts where Bush received at least eighty percent of the vote, the exit polls were off by an average of ten percent. By contrast, in precincts where Kerry dominated by eighty percent or more, the exit polls were accurate to within three tenths of one percent - a pattern that suggests Republican election officials stuffed the ballot box in Bush country. [39]

    "When you look at the numbers, there is a tremendous amount of data that supports the supposition of election fraud," concludes Freeman. "The discrepancies are higher in battleground states, higher where there were Republican governors, higher in states with greater proportions of African-American communities and higher in states where there were the most Election Day complaints. All these are strong indicators of fraud - and yet this supposition has been utterly ignored by the press and, oddly, by the Democratic Party."

    The evidence is especially strong in Ohio. In January, a team of mathematicians from the National Election Data Archive, a nonpartisan watchdog group, compared the state's exit polls against the certified vote count in each of the forty-nine precincts polled by Edison/Mitofsky. In twenty-two of those precincts - nearly half of those polled - they discovered results that differed widely from the official tally. Once again - against all odds - the widespread discrepancies were stacked massively in Bush's favor: In only two of the suspect twenty-two precincts did the disparity benefit Kerry. The wildest discrepancy came from the precinct Mitofsky numbered "27," in order to protect the anonymity of those surveyed. According to the exit poll, Kerry should have received sixty-seven percent of the vote in this precinct. Yet the certified tally gave him only thirty-eight percent. The statistical odds against such a variance are just shy of one in 3 billion. [40]

    Such results, according to the archive, provide "virtually irrefutable evidence of vote miscount." The discrepancies, the experts add, "are consistent with the hypothesis that Kerry would have won Ohio's electoral votes if Ohio's official vote counts had accurately reflected voter intent." [41] According to Ron Baiman, vice president of the archive and a public policy analyst at Loyola University in Chicago, "No rigorous statistical explanation" can explain the "completely nonrandom" disparities that almost uniformly benefited Bush. The final results, he adds, are "completely consistent with election fraud - specifically vote shifting.""


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 05:56 AM

All circumstantial evidence, and I doubt anyone will ever prove it, short of a confession by someone involved....but I can't say I'd be a BIT surprised if it were true.

Two elections in a row, huh? In a country that prides itself of free elections....gee.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 09:22 AM

Six months later, this thread is revived (as if it had any life to begin with?) and for what???????

I am very familiar with the Columbus, Ohio voting stats - call the Franklin County (Columbus) Director of Elections and get his views on any irregularities in '04. This is the only place in Ohio where there were charges of vote problems. The only other area was in the Northeast part of the state where Democratic poll workers were given false directions to Republican voters. but that doesn't really count.


And, when you contact that Elections Director, he will tell you point blank that the election results were filed with no irregularities noted. Any charges to that regard were groundless.

Don't take my word for it, contact him. And by the way, when you do, ask him what his other position was during the election. He will inform you that he was also Chairman of the Franklin County Democratic Party.


Do it! And then just get over it!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 09:30 AM

By the way, the voting machines do provide a complete paper trail.

Did anyone here stop and think if the Democrats really, really thought there was election fraud, that a major lawsuit would have been instigated by now. Not by Congress, but, by the Party.

(or the NY Times, CBS news, Washington Post, CNN, etc., etc., etc.)

Again, Just get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Mack
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 10:44 AM

Hey!

Before we can settle this, we first have to settle the outcome of the war Confederate States of America against the Union.

Then we can whup the shit out of the political party that bitched about the problems they created with the existing voting system and demanded the electronic system.

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:57 PM

You clearly didn't read the article, Guest,03 Jun 06 - 09:22 AM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:34 PM

It's also pretty obvious, Guest, 03 Jun 06 - 09:22 AM, and 03 Jun 06 - 09:30 AM, that you don't have any confidence in the results of the election yourself, or you wouldn't be trying so hard to stifle discussion about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 11:42 AM

Read Bobby Kennedy's blockbuster article in this month's Rolling Stone!

It wasn't just in Ohio or Florida but a systemic national problem.

You still think there's Democracy left in the U.S.?

Can anyone here prove that the 2000 or 2004 elections are valid?

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 11:51 AM

From a correspondent on IP LIst:

Subject: RE: [IP] more on Was the 2004 election stolen? Yes.

Dave - As an Ohio resident who also personally observed and recorded
the 2004 election vote recount in Greene County, I can attest to the
fact that the systematic manipulation of the recount process was
managed by phone calls and directives from SoS Blackwell's office. I
was there when the calls came in. I observed that the statutory
procedures we fledgling observers had been recently trained in were,
in fact, not followed - and when challenged, the Board of Elections
officials merely stated "they always did it this way." The Cuyahoga
County BOE was indicted for election law crimes for conducting their
2004 recount using the same process, because they had prosecutors
willing to take on the case. The illegal recount process was
systematic and controlled by the Secretary of State, now candidate
for Governor.

As far as Manjoo goes, or Steve Hertzberg for that matter, they have
been consistently publishing the same position since 2004, and I
invite them to reopen the issue themselves. To look at the mountains
of evidence compiled by grassroots Ohio activists - collaborations of
statisticians and math professors among them - and national groups
such as the one I copy below. I welcome people to read Kathy Dopp's
statistical analysis based on Ohio precinct data which knocks dead
Warren Mitofksy's weak and handwaving response suggesting there was
bias in his exit polls which showed Kerry winning Ohio. See: http://
uscountvotes.org/ Which is now the National Election Data Archive
project, a people's project to collect vote actuals data in all
future elections to prevent this kind of catastrophe from occurring
again.

The National Election Data Archive publicly released a paper "2004
Presidential Election – Compendium of Attempts to Dismiss Vote Fraud"
which solidly rebuts, in 6 short pages, the academic arguments which
claim to have shown that there is no vote fraud/miscounts in U.S.
elections.

The short compendium of academic attempts to dismiss vote fraud
includes claims made by the Democratic National Committee and
pollster Warren Mitofksy among others:

http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/
IncorrectElectionDataAnalysis-06.pdf

Every argument that Mitofksy, Election Science Institute, the
Democratic National Committee, and others have made which purports
that there is no evidence of vote miscount in U.S. elections is
refuted in a page or less in this short compendium by the National
Election Data Archive's volunteer statisticians and mathematicians.

Warren Mitofsky is very well respected within AAPOR due to his past
work and leadership. Consequently Mitofsky's position, that exit
poll discrepancies were caused by partisan response bias rather than
vote miscounts is given great weight within AAPOR. However, the
National Election Data Archive, describes recent Mitofsky analyses
which were presented by Mitofsky and Fritz Scheuren at recent ASA.org
and AAPOR.org conferences, as "sophistry" rather than mathematically
valid analyses.

The National Election Data Archive points out that the National
Election Pool (NEP) and Mitofsky have not yet released any exit poll
data or analysis publicly that supports this response bias
hypothesis. Yet all the data regarding pollster conditions which
Mitofsky claims they analyzed would not pose any risk to voter
confidentiality to release.

The National Election Data Archive invites everyone to read its
concise paper which solidly rebuts all the arguments made to date
which claim to demonstrate a lack of evidence of vote fraud in U.S.
elections.

(Leaving my contact info out)



Hmmmm?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Mack
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 11:32 AM

I saw Elvis yesterday. Damn he has lost a lot of weight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 03:26 PM

I've said it before, and I'll say it again,
Can't you manage a paper and pen?
Why a computer, Why a machine,
Or is simple somehow obscene?

No, seriously, why not paper ballots? Lots of counties manage just fine with them.

Unless those in power have something to fear from a vote that can be verified and recounted easily that is......


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 09:31 AM

CarolC - Stifle? I gave sources for you to go to. How is that an attempt to stifle? You seem to always get defensive when someone offers an altenate point of view with a source of verification to fgo to. I am completely happy with the election.

As far as exit polls go, would not an area with 80+ percent of Kerry supporters come close to matching. If the Dems would learn to fib to the exit poller, perhaps they could generate increased interest in the voting process. They have to be the only ones who give the correct info.

My thoughts are it is no one's business how I vote. And using unverifiable info from the web, NOT priceless.

How about this;
"Dave, as a resident of Ohio who observed and recorded the vote in Greene County, I can attest to the fact that it was completely above board.....".

There, you have another source.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Mack
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:49 AM

Let me see. If I wanted to make the opposition think they were winning I could tell them I voted for the opposition on exit. Then they could quit slashing tires and chainsawing campaign signs thinking they were winning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 12:08 PM

Sorry, but the slashing and chainsawing took place in the days before Election day.
That type of behavior would not accomplish much in the afternoon. The Dems did tire slashing (caught in the act in some instances) the night before the election. These were the vehicles Repub workers were to use to transport voters to the polls.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 01:29 PM

CarolC - Stifle? I gave sources for you to go to. How is that an attempt to stifle?

Oh.... I don't know... maybe it was this bit here...

Again, Just get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!


That sure looks like an order to me. And dig all those exclamation points. How many is that... 12?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Mack
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 04:56 PM

Who wanted the electronic machines?

Who designed and approved the famous butterfly ballot in 00?

Who "ran" the polling places in Fl in 00?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 05:10 PM

Who wanted the electronic machines?

Who designed and approved the famous butterfly ballot in 00?

Who "ran" the polling places in Fl in 00?



Dont know. Don't care. Doesn't matter.

The only thing that matters is for us to have free, open, fair, and verifiable elections. That's the only way we can call ourselves a democracy. Everything else is just obfuscation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Mack
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:13 PM

You know, you care and it does matter just like the DHS/FEMA demands.

The Electoral College is the way someone can win without getting the most votes. It was created to suit travel and communications conditions as they were in Colonial times.

How come nobody has introduced a bill to do away with it?

If you ask me, those jerks in the senate shouldn't be allowed to do our voting for us. They are a throwback from colonial times also.

We should have a system so that all voters can vote on those bills. the crooked bastards get swayed this way and that by lobbyists special interest groups and pressure groups.

Right now they are putting off doing something about illegal aliens by fiddling aroung with making English the official language. Now that it is official de we still have to see everything written in Spanish and English so the Latinos can avoid learning english?

All those sorry suckers including GWB have to do is enforce the existing laws instead of weakening and watering them down.

If it means a head of lettuce costs $2 instead of 1$ so be it. If all the companys that employ illegals have to pay real wages and withhold taxes they will all be on the same level playing field and none of them will loose anything.

Businesses that employ those illegals are saving money and producing cheaper goods but any savings we get are more than offset by having to support thos illegals in other ways with out tax money.

Ever go to a Walmart and send a moneygram? 90% of people in line are Latinos sending money to Mexico. It costs less to send money to Mexico that it does to send it to the US. The Mexican economy depends on that money comming from the US.

Guess I got into a rant here but I feel better now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:19 PM

I'm not going to comment on your take on immigrants, but I am not in substantial disagreement with your stance on the election process here in the US. Although I suspect that most voters would never take the time to read the bills they were voting on, which would make them just as ineffective as the people in Congress (who also do not read them).


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Mack
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:46 PM

Then what would be loss except a bunch of overpaid, posturing blowhards?

The bills should be broken down into smaller easier to digest parts.

And anybody too lazy to read them and vote deserves what they get.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 12:06 PM

Then what would be loss except a bunch of overpaid, posturing blowhards?

Can't think of any.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:14 PM

It appears ever more possible that the 2004 election was in fact rigged.

Apparently Diebold machines are DESIGNED to be tampered with (using only a simple screwdriver) and leave no trace.

More here...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/080106E.shtml


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: TIA
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 02:29 PM

Researchers at Princeton have devised easily-inserted malicious code that can be loaded in less than a minute by literally anyone, can steal votes, make all electronic and paper copies consistent (and fraudulent), and then erase itself leaving no trace. Worse, it can be installed as a virus that migrates from machine to machine on Diebold's memory cards.

See a demonstration and details here.

My faith in the results of our last several cycles of elections is now zero.

If electronic voting is not forbidden or made truly secure (by a non-partisan consortium), our Democracy is dead.

Okay Bush people, go ahead and call me a sore loser. But what if our hackers are better than your hackers in November, or in 2008?

Will you be sore losers then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 03:13 AM

We all will be losers.
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 07:26 AM

seems like you still have your blinders on- The Dems would lose votes if they had to forgo using the Diebold systems...

"A week after the primary election was plagued by human error and technical glitches, Maryland Gov. Robert L. Ehrlich Jr. (R) called yesterday for the state to scrap its $106 million electronic voting apparatus and revert to a paper ballot system for the November election.

"When in doubt, go paper, go low-tech," he said.

Linda H. Lamone, the administrator of the Maryland State Board of Elections, quickly denounced the plan to swap voting systems just seven weeks before the general election as "crazy." And Senate President Thomas V. Mike Miller Jr. (D-Calvert) said it "cannot happen. It will not happen."

Ehrlich said that, if necessary, he would call a special session of the Maryland General Assembly to change the law to allow paper ballots. But Miller and House Speaker Michael E. Busch (D-Anne Arundel) dismissed the idea of a special session, saying elections officials should focus instead on fixing the current system."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/20/AR2006092001356.html


Of course, as long as the "correct" side gets the votes from the election, I guess it is ok......


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: TIA
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 07:02 PM

"The GOP's cyber election hit squad
by Steven Rosenfeld and Bob Fitrakis
April 22, 2007

Did the most powerful Republicans in America have the computer capacity, software skills and electronic infrastructure in place on Election Night 2004 to tamper with the Ohio results to ensure George W. Bush's re-election?

The answer appears to be yes. There is more than ample documentation to show that on Election Night 2004, Ohio's "official" Secretary of State website – which gave the world the presidential election results – was redirected from an Ohio government server to a group of servers that contain scores of Republican web sites, including the secret White House e-mail accounts that have emerged in the scandal surrounding Attorney General Alberto Gonzales's firing of eight federal prosecutors.

Recent revelations have documented that the Republican National Committee (RNC) ran a secret White House e-mail system for Karl Rove and dozens of White House staffers. This high-tech system used to count and report the 2004 presidential vote– from server-hosting contracts, to software-writing services, to remote-access capability, to the actual server usage logs themselves – must be added to the growing congressional investigations.

snip

On Election Night 2004, many of the totals reported by the Secretary of State were based on local precinct results that were impossible. In Clyde, Ohio, a Republican haven, Bush won big after 131 percent voter turnout. In Republican Perry County, two precincts came in at 124 percent and 120 percent respectively. In Gahanna Ward 1, precinct B, Bush received 4,258 votes despite the fact that only 638 people voted for president. In Concord Southwest in Miami County, the certified election results proudly proclaimed at 679 out of 689 registered voters cast ballots, a 98.55 percent turnout. FreePress.org later found that only 547 voters had signed in.

snip

The most eyebrow-raising example to emerge from parsing precinct results was finding 10,500 people in three Ohio's 'Bible Belt' counties who voted to re-elect Bush and voted in favor of gay marriage, if the official results are true. That was in Warren, Butler and Clermont Counties. The most plausible explanation for this anomaly, which defies logic and was not seen anywhere else in the country, was Kerry votes were flipped to Bush while the rest of the ballot was left alone..."

the whole article


Remember what Stalin said about elections.

If any of this is true. A second American Revolution is in order.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 07:20 PM

The people who are aware of that have spoken to it often on Mudcat. The people who don't know don't care. Democracy in the USA is dead. Knowing or not knowing means nothing anymore. Hell, even the Democrat-controlled Senate and House is doing bugger all to change anything. Just more cosmetics and charade.

You can't have a revolution if people won't leave their TVs. Simple as that. Best of luck to you and your country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Alice
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 09:38 PM

Thanks for the link to that article! I emailed it to a long list of people.
Time to bring this to the nation's attention and get an investigation in the public eye!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 09:41 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 09:43 PM

You will find the second 2 chapters of this short film extremely relevant.
http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.tv/orwellrolls.php

or you can just listen while browsing


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: TIA
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 10:54 PM

Peace -- maybe I'm coming to your country if I can. Is it any better?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 11:16 PM

Depends on whether or not Harper gets re-elected. However, there are only 32 million people here and we could use more. I'd give you a sales job on Canada because I love the place, but the short version is this: Our first Prime Minister was Sir John A Macdonald. He still impresses Canadians for two reasons: the CPR which is alternately referred to as what made us a country OR the biggest land grab in history, and his prodigious bar bills. That man could DRINK! As a rule, we are really proud to have had him as our first Prime Minister.

Depending upon where you decide--if you do--to move to, the 'climate"--we call it weather--can range from hot to severe cold. It is worse when you leave the house.

Our beer is often bad. That's because we allow beer companies to get away with selling crap. We are a gullible people. We believe what the commercials say. And we tend to trust our government people because if they steal too much we throw the bums out.

That aside, if you message me, I'd be glad to try and answer questions you might have about this place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 10:46 AM

I've more than once counted votes (paper votes) in Germany. We have the idea that counting should be done in such a way that the actual result is given to the next higher stage where the votes are added.

So if someone from the opposite party says he has counted 143 votes for his party and I count again (we always double check), most likely I will count 143 votes too and if I count 144 or 142 we'll count again together with a third party parson watching.

I would never trust computers.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 11:06 AM

It is done that way in Canada also.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 11:15 AM

Sorry. The Democrats ( in charge here in Maryland) kept the former Governor ( a Republican) from requiring a paper trail for our electronic voting machines...

It IS ok if the count is off, as long as the CORRECT side controls the numbers.- Or so many believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: TIA
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:09 PM

Like who for example?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 25 May 07 - 02:55 PM

Nope, I apologize. The computer did not eat the votes. The voters were "caged" by the RNC. The evidence is in the "missing" Rove emails. Details here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Aug 07 - 11:49 AM

Florida finally officially admits the possibility.
Miami Herald story here.


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