BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:11 AM

Update
1 conviction.
1 guilty plea.
2 charged awaiting trial.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8045200.stm

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 06:33 AM

I've just gone through the postings to this thread:

On "Intelligence"
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:38 AM

"And the government knew all about these non-existent stocks of WMDs in Iraq?"

GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland. - PM
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:13 PM

"And the government knew all about these non-existent stocks of WMDs in Iraq?"

Sure they knew, they knew they were wrong"

And:

From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 07:13 PM

"When I hear on TV that "intelligence sources have confirned", I can't help thinking if these are are the same "intelligent sources" who confirmed the existence of Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq."


Well both MGOH and Guests are wrong. NOBODY in Intelligence knew about those non-existent stocks of WMD's in Iraq, the only people who clearly stated that they MAY exist as they were currently unaccounted for were the UN's own UNSCOM Inspectors. That was the whole point to establish whether they existed or not. I am not going to argue the matter, but anyone who doubts the above should just go back and read what was very clearly stated at the time.

The collapse of the GFA:
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 05:28 PM

"I see NI slipping back into conflict again ,after the false dawn of the Good Friday Agreement.

The blame lies on the shoulders of the Irish and UK governments, and the loyalist people of NI."

Eh; Its now November Ake, have I missed something or has, "the false dawn of the Good Friday Agreement" given way to an extremely quiet conflict? As this one of your many predicted apocalypses has failed to materialise (like all the others) are you were so prominent in aportioning blame for its cause, are you prepared to give those same parties credit for staving off what you always see as the inevitable in your dire predictions.

Also from Akenaton the Prophet:
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:47 PM

"Tiocfaidh...The IRAs' purpose is to construct a United Irish Republic, a sentiment I fully agree with.

The problem lies with the Loyalist population of the North, who will always be in a position to block this purpose."

Really Ake, by the bye this also goes to someone, who like Ake here staunchly espouses the cause of a united Ireland and states he supports the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland. Well the results of a survey taken in 2004 showed that quite a sizeable majority of the people of NI wished to remain within the United Kingdom, it also showed that the majority of Catholics wished that Northern Ireland should remain as part of the UK - That good enough for you, are you prepared to accept that.

Now this one was just bloody hilarious:
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 05 - 11:21 AM

"Some brits are unbelievable. If your country had been occupied by a foreign army and your people persecuted for centuries, not only would you be having red, white and blue street parties to celebrate the end of the occupation, but you would be singing twenty verse songs about the whole debacle for the next few centuries."

Hey pal, have you EVER read ANYTHING about the history of the British Isles? Judging from your you OBVIOUSLY HAVE NOT.

Lastly
From: polaitaly - PM
Date: 10 May 05 - 04:52 AM

"The nationalist community was so well protected that the first thing the army did was Bloody Sunday."

Not true, the first thing the British Forces did was to enforce the disbanding of the B-Specials and disarm them. In doing that, while protecting the Nationalist enclaves in the cities of Northern Ireland the British Forces came under attack from the "Loyalist" paramilitary groups. By the way polaitaly that is not an opinion, it is not something gathered from reading history or articles on the internet, it comes from personal experience.

Another thing that should be realised - in history, there has never been, prior to the inception of the Republic of Ireland, a country, a nation, or a State called Ireland. There has been an island called Ireland or Erin. Same misconception applies to Palestine, which is a modern invention.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 01:43 PM

Absolutely nothing to do with the robbery but reading Den's post of 12 May 05 - 09:49 AM. I have a couple of questions, that I would most certainly have liked to put to Robert J. Breglio the American ballistics expert, and to the other ballistics expert, Dr. Hugh Thomas.

They are both linked as the evidence of both men seems to rely strongly on suppositions, that they may, or may not have grounds for making.

The first is to the American expert - How by examining the autopsies and medical reports did he conclude that the 'sniper' was using telescopic sights? In his study of the angle of the trajectories is he assuming that the three victims were standing upright? Did he verify this, or was it confirmed in evidence by others? If this is an assumption did he then extend the line of trajectory to a fire position most likely then conclude that the shooter would have had to use a telescopic sight.

The second relates to Dr. Hugh Thomas's comments in the interview with channel 4 in which "he claimed that these three victims could not possibly have been hit at street level as was the official statement. He said, "It would be almost impossible for those three men in the few seconds that were available to them to bend to exactly the same angle and face exactly the same way and be shot in exactly the same fashion."

Now I believe that in the British War Museum there is a photograph that demonstrates exactly how this circumstance regarding the possibility of quite a large gathering bending "to exactly the same angle and face exactly the same way" The photograph is of a collection of fighter pilots taken during the Battle of Britain. Apparently as the photographer took the shot a weapons armourer tested the guns on one of the aircraft. Everyone in that photograph is crouched, I was noted that those who were right-handed were looking over their right shoulders because the firing came from behind, while those who were left-handed were looking over their left shoulders. It prompted a change in formation where left handers if available were put out on the left side of the formation.

Now to get back to the three victims and Dr. Hugh Thomas's evidence, is he too assuming that these men were standing up-straight? Under fire it is not uncommon and quite natural to crouch, you try to make as small a target as possible, you double up, in this position I can certainly see how it would be possible to have an entry and exit would indicate a shot fired at a downward angle of 45 degrees, when in actual fact it was fired along a horizontal plane.

The walls of Derry were being patrolled that day by members of the Anglian Regiment if memory serves me correctly, but I am in no wat sure. Now they would not be carrying arms fitted with telescopic sights, it was not standard issue at the time, but that surely would have been examined in detail during the Inquiry. The timing as stated by the ballistics experts seem to indicate a semi-automatic rifle. It would be interesting to know. The above were merely the questions that immediately came to my mind, very interesting, thanks for the post Den.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 09:44 AM

Today a man is charged with the robbery, and imprisoning a hostage.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 10:24 AM

I don't eat everything I see. And I don't believe everything I read or hear on the Media. It takes little to either start a rumour or whispering campaign, especially if the person or persons are disliked in the first place. I am sure you will admit like myself there are people around where you live and if someone in a position of trust or respect told you that he or she did an unpleasant deed last week you would believe it, especially if the individual had in your eyes the ability to carry it out. I hope this helps someway in my explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 09:31 AM

May not be a court case now.
How do you discipline your mind not to speculate on the evidence available? (that is all I was doing, I thought everyone did)

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 09:27 AM

Unlike some of your previous posts KAOH which I have just read I would prefer to wait to see who goes to court and what the case against them is. Then look at the evidence, does it point to the accused. What the jury think and then make judgement. But then again I am Irish, I think if memory serves me right your nation got it wrong a few times with Irish men and women.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 07:53 AM

Someone knows!
Obviously there is insufficient evidence for a prosecution.
I would be most interested in who you suspect Sweeney.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 07:11 AM

Who did do it Keith A of Hertford ? Does some credible source know for sure who did it ? Should be worth watching as one of the producers lead the mid seventies campaign to FREE GEORGE DAVIS. Yes the man sent to prison for bank robbery. They got him out of prison after a long public outcry. Three weeks after his release he was caught robbing a bank ! So the team who made this production can't be wrong !

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 06:21 AM

Anyone still interested in who dunnit?

Channel 4 (UK TV) is running an investigative programme in it's "Dispatches" series, Thurs 22nd Sept

Don't miss Spooks though.

keith

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:41 AM

Very few people are aware Dave, that Brookeborough's line is still the mindset of the Unionists "....as it pertained to 'Northern Irish' public opinion, and I'm afraid, that was the day to day reality for us." (if you want to quote me, it's handy to quote the context as well....)

Because it is always the Nationalists who seem to be under pressure all the time to hand in their weapons, from here and in Britain, the British public either wittingly or unwittingly buy into the same argument...., and ideology.

That's why it's handy to know the situation.

They (The Unionists) do not want to share power with us, Full Stop.
The more they are put under pressure to show their blatant sectarianism, the better the chances are of the Jeremy Paxman's of this world nailing them to the floorboards.

Just like they used to to to us.

Literally.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:15 AM

In order to try and nail somebody in an interview, you must hold the moral high ground

Never worried Angus Deyton:-)

Still disagreee on the silent majority thing as it is the vocal majority that seem to cause most of the problems on all sides. At least I think I know where you are coming from. How you think Lord Brookeborough is representative of the majority of the British public, however, is, quite honestly, beyond me.

Keep up the good fight! (The one done without guns and bombs!)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:03 AM

Jeremy Paxman, my arse!
In order to try and nail somebody in an interview, you must hold the moral high ground, and Britain never was that in relation to Ireland

"I still don't know who the vast majority are"

The silent ones, Dave.

... and the significance of the 37 years lies in the last words of Brookeborough, linked to a few posts up, in that nothing has changed as far as they are concerned.

The vast majority can 'tsk tsk' all they want in front of the evening news, and 'want' this and that for the Irish people.
Action however, is what is required

OK, you are not the platitudinal type, and that's dead on, and I genuinely thank you for that. But you do not need to defend the vast majority, by stating that you are not one of them.

Let them state it for themselves

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 05 - 06:39 AM

sorry,

...if lobbying MPs, voting and stating categoricaly that I am against both the violence and the division of Ireland are platitudes which mean nothing.

Itchy send finger Syndrome. Perhaps I need to disarm;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 05 - 06:36 AM

And not ONE person has yet come and said that the Loyalists should throw down their weapons.

I have said it many times before and will say it many times more but, just so no-one has to look it up...

I disagree with ALL armed politics. To make matters clearer this includes Northern Ireland and includes all parties concerned. I will not state specificaly that the Loyalists should throw down their weapons nor will I say the Nationalists should. To do so would imply that one side should while the other should not. I will simply state again ALL parties concerned should give up their weapons.

Happy?

I know 1968 and 2005 are 37 years apart. I don't understand the significance though. Good politcal answer though, Tiocfaidh, cast confusion and avoid the question. Now, at the risk of sounding like Jeremy Paxman, will you please answer my questions.

I still don't know whether this 'vast majority' want to fire neuclear missiles at Ireland while the people of that country wave sticks at us or whether they are honest friendly working class heroes who would love to share a pint of the black stuff with you. I still don't know who the vast majority are. I still don't know whether you agree that "(and by their silence, the vast majority of the British Public) wants us to be defenceless once again" is one of those "uniformed statements" that you dislike so much. I still don't know what you want me to do about whatever it is I am accused of if lobbying MPs, voting and stating categoricaly that I am against both the violence and the division of Ireland.

I look forward to your direct answers.

Ta.

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 05:58 AM

... and we can start another thread where people can post to and say that they've lobbied their respective MP's

Platitudes mean absolutely nowt

Tiocfaidh an Samhraidh

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 05:55 AM

1968 and 2005 are 37 years apart, Dave.

And not ONE person has yet come and said that the Loyalists should throw down their weapons.

You included.

Say things like that, and mean it, and I think I might start believing you.

Cheers.

Tiocfaidh ar lá

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 05 - 05:26 AM

Ian Paisley, for his part (and by their silence, the vast majority of the British Public) wants us to be defenceless once again

Tiocfaidh, how on earth can you say things like that and in the same post put Where the problem occurs is where uninformed statements that tend to trivialise our situation

I'm sorry but the 'vast majority of the british public' does NOT want you to be defenceless. It is uninformed statements like that that not only trivialise the situation but set people against you, whether they agree with you in the main or not!

I am also astounded that anyone so obviously literate and intelligent in other ways can have "the vast majority of the British Public wants us to be defenceless" and "I have no doubt that public opinion in Britain would have been behind the continuing Civil Rights movement" just 14 lines away from each other. I will put it down to the heat of the argument.

I am completely at a loss as to whether you are saying the British Public are with you or against you. I can assure you that everyone I know is highly supportive of the nationalist views, if not always the methods of making them known. Who on earth is this 'majority of the British Public' anyway? Those who voted for this government? (36%) Those who voted for the Conservatives? (37%) The remainder? (27%)

Are ALL memebrs of one or more of those groups for you or against you? Or is it only part of them? I am honestly not being pedantic or purposely dense. I realy don't know what you think of us. Are we the honest and open people from the working class neighbourhoods? Or are we the demonised imperialistic warmongers that want you to be defenceless?

What would you have this mythical vast majority do to show our support?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 13 May 05 - 02:57 AM

No problem Keith. And vice versa, I might add.

I have no objection to discussing these subjects, and I'm sure that goes for a lot of the Nationalist posters here. Where the problem occurs is where uninformed statements that tend to trivialise our situation; especially in these days where News gets a few rounds in the washing machine, before it is served up to us.

I have no doubt that public opinion in Britain would have been behind the continuing Civil Rights movement, but Lord Brookeborough summed up the situation as it pertained to 'Northern Irish' public opinion, and I'm afraid, that was the day to day reality for us.

I think you know in your heart of hearts what we Irish people are like. We are honest, decent people; welcoming and friendly at the best of times.

They say that where there is hardship and deprivation, the people are more honest and open..., and that goes across the board, in working class neighborhoods, be they in Yorkshire, Lancashire, London, or Belfast.

But I could see then, and I see now, why the northern hemisphere's equivalent of the South African National Party are unwilling..., nay, adamant that the status quo should stay in place.

It is sad to admit that it took us to be pushed literally to the ground, and under it, for us to rise up and stand that ground for once and for all.

Read that link above, which I borrowed from another thread, especially the last answer Brookeborough gives.

One cannot negogiate with logic like that.
Ian Paisley, for his part (and by their silence, the vast majority of the British Public) wants us to be defenceless once again, while the people who kept this 'statelet' of ours afloat all these years hold not only all the aces, but the rest of the deck as well.

Including, I might add, a very sizeable arsenal of their own.

If the British people really want to see peace in the north, it has to get those weapons off the streets too. Yet no one has ever called for that. Not in Westminster. Not in Mudcat.

When they do (in Westminster, I mean) maybe then we can get to the stage where there is 'an acceptable level' of crime and violence, that passes for the norm in every so-called 'civilised' society.

Personally, there is no such thing, but I'm a realist also.

No problem Keith, certainly from my part. I, and I'm sure the rest of us here just want to see it all end.
But I'm not prepared to see the job half-done.

And I certainly will not stand by and take flak from all sides about what bastards we all are, while those who call us that guard some rather sinister skeletons in their own cupboards.

"John Bull he boasts and he laughs with scorn
And he says that Irish man is born
To be always discontented for at home he cannot agree
But we'll banish discord from our land
And in harmony like brothers stand
To demand the rights of Ireland let us all united be!
Our Parliament in College Green
For to assemble 'twill be seen
And happy days in Erin's isle we soon will have once more
Then dear old Ireland soon will be
A great and glorious country
And peace and blessings soon will smile all 'round the Shamrock Shore!

Tiocfaidh ar lá

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 05 - 06:40 PM

You are right.
It is not worth making Irish friends angry. I make no more comment on events in Ireland.

I will say from this side, that the Civil Rights movement had and would have continued to have the support of British public opinion , that it would have been hard for our politicians to ignore, and without apportioning blame, that it was a tragedy that was lost.

Lastly, that we ceased to be an imperialist country long ago, giving our colonies independence willingly and without a fight, and remaining friends. The present troubles are nothing do do with a non existant wish to cling to empire.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:34 PM

One young soldier seems to have lost it and a couple more joined in.
This is a description of Bloody Sunday? The person who wrote these words is possibly a fool but I don't think so. It seems more likely that he was being deliberately dishonest. If he really believes it to be accurate then he really is too stupid to commenting on Irish affairs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:23 PM

Apropos shooting people in the back.

Your buddies had a very marked predilection for doing exactly that.

Running them down with Saracens.

Get a life, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:12 PM

250

This should be called the Mother of all Britshit Thread

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:11 PM

Did you read the article Den linked to, Keith?

"According to British Army evidence 21 soldiers fired their weapons on 'Bloody Sunday' and shot 108 rounds between them. Two soldiers were responsible for firing a total 35 bullets. Soldier F fired 13 shots and Soldier H fired 22 shots and both soldiers were in the area of Glenfada Park at the time of the shooting."

What's this '13 killed and 13 injured suggests only around 20 fired into the crowd.... Others may have been attempting to return fire at real or imagined gunmen in the flats' tripe?

Are you trying to re-write history again?

You're bloody right it's painful.
Especially when assholes like you try to somehow excuse the murdering bastards.

Accept that your time in the North of Ireland was a shame and a disgrace.

And then get on with your life

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 05 - 03:05 PM

Thanks for that Den.
I had not heard the sniper on the wall theory.
If that did happen, would the Paras believe the incoming fire was meant for them?
Re the 108 shots. If you fire a rifle at close range into a crowd you are boound to hit someone, and a single body would not stop a 7.62 high velocity round. 13 killed and 13 injured suggests only around 20 fired into the crowd. It could still be one out of control man. Others may have been attempting to return fire at real or imagined gunmen in the flats.
Something drove the Paras to take cover behind the low wall. they can be accused of much, but not nervous timidity.
Also there was a low velocity injury, and the brave priest saw an armed man in the crowd.

I realise this event is still painfull to many alive today, and fully accept that all the slain and injured were shot without any justification.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:11 PM

Thanks for the correction, 12 May 05 - 08:55 AM

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 12 May 05 - 10:42 AM

Try this http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bsunday/circum.htm

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 12 May 05 - 10:40 AM

I know I'm drifting off the original thread topic but go http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bsunday/circum.htm for more information.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 12 May 05 - 09:49 AM

I get angry when I read misinformation regarding Bloody Sunday. Bloody Sunday happened for one reason and one reason only. It was to put the fear of God into the people and to make Paddy lie down but Paddy didn't lie down and the rest is history.

Keith said that, "One young soldier seems to have lost it and a couple more joined in.
Most maintained their discipline. How many shots were fired?

But you see it didn't happen like that. At least three of the people murdered were systematically targeted from sniper positions high up on the Derry city walls. When Robert J. Breglio (an American ballistics expert) examined the autopsies and medical reports of William Nash, Michael McDaid and John Young he noted the similarities of the angle of trajectories of the fatal wounds. I quote, "I will further conclude that in my professional opinion the projectiles that struck William Nash, John Young and Michael McDaid originated from an area up in the vicinity of Derry's walls and were fired by a high powered weapon using telescopic sights."

Another ballistics expert, Dr. Hugh Thomas a consultant surgeon at Prince Charles hospital, Merthyr Tydfil in an interview with channel 4 claimed that these three victims could not possibly have been hit at street level as was the official statement. He said, "It would be almost impossible for those three men in the few seconds that were available to them to bend to exactly the same angle and face exactly the same way and be shot in exactly the same fashion. When speaking of the shooter he said, "Its likely to be a marksman, an exceptionally good marksman, firing towards, obviously and in actual fact, firing quite fast at the three suspects (his words) who were clumped in the same area. You would only need a fraction of a second to align the next individual and complete the job."

The trajectory of the bullets which killed all three of these men was strikingly similar. The bullets entered their heads from the front to the back and from above to below at an angle of 45 degrees. Doesn't sound like the shooter was panicking or at street level.

According to the British Army report if you want to believe it (from the Cain website) there were 108 rounds fired by 21 soldiers. That would dispell the myth of the panicky rookie and the discipline of the others. I'm not sure but aren't the Paras one of Britains most professional, highly trained and aggresive units? Probably not the best choice to police a civil rights rally.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 08:55 AM

What is 'unvoluntarily', Wolfgang?
and how is it contextualized in that sentence?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 06:03 AM

Means 'speed', doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 06:02 AM

I love the word 'fart'

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:43 AM

Yeah, everybody makes typos including me, but this particular typo has an unvoluntarily funny side (for a German):

Spiegel is 'mirror'
Speigel is 'spit-jelly'

And then add to that the content of the post in which a poster complains about the magazine 'Spit-jelly' publishing libel. That's why I did laugh.

I love sense altering typos, like when Bobert spells Israel Isreal. The best I ever read at Mudcat was when someone spelled the Austrian chancellor 'Schussel' instead of 'Schüssel' making him 'dimwit' instead of 'bowl'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 11 May 05 - 06:42 PM

Speigel, smeigel

I can't speak for anyone but myself, Wolfgang, but I saw that, and I assumed the poster said that because he was pointing out an attempt at impersonation.

Sense altering, or tense altering?
...because there is no 'Tir' in the Irish Language

Typos are fine, we all make them (even you!!)
But if you are trying to misrepresent someone, and in the process spell their name wrong, I think Tír Eoghain's reaction was justified, Wolfnag.

I mean Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 May 05 - 07:19 AM

Tír Chonaill,

thanks, you made me laugh when spelling Spiegel 'Speigel'. That could be considered libel assuming you did what you did on purpose. But I guess it was only a typo.

What is the decent Irish way to react to a typo? I learned it from Tír Eoghain in another thread recently:

Learn to fucking spell Irish properly...

Fucking dimwit Brit

My way to react to a funny sense altering typo is to laugh.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:41 AM

10. CONCLUSION

10.1 In our submission, the events which took place on Bloody Sunday amounted to the summary and arbitrary execution of unarmed civilians who were the victims of soldiers acting under the military and political command of the United Kingdom government.

For those who just want to cut to the chase. This is the conclusion of the report I linked to below.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:39 AM

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bsunday/birw.htm

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:24 AM

(Bugger me, bugger is getting through today)

Did the whole army open fire on unarmed protesters in an act of state sponsored genocide?
I am only remebering from news reports, and hesitate to make a comment before members who were there, but I recall it was a single plattoon at Bloody Sunday. Troops whose whole training was for fighting an armour/infantry war in Western Europe, and utterly unprepared for the situation.
They had no anti riot or crowd control kit, only their rifles.
One young soldier seems to have lost it and a couple more joined in.
Most maintained their discipline. How many shots were fired?
A shameful episode for sure, and the authorities actions afterwards fueled the understandable anger.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 05 - 04:53 AM

Keith you don't protect people by shooting the unarmed ones. And I'm buggered if I am going to say that again.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: polaitaly
Date: 10 May 05 - 04:52 AM

The nationalist community was so well protected that the first thing the army did was Bloody Sunday.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 05 - 03:48 AM

OK, I am not from NI and misjudge many things.
I started the thread to discuss the heist, but then people started talking about the glorious armed struggle, and I wanted to say that there is another way of looking at what happened.
The Nationalist community was I know under persecution and violence, and that is why the army was sent in to protect them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 10 May 05 - 03:17 AM

Bugger all, if you ask me.

Are you at work yet, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 May 05 - 03:14 AM

Sorry to keep bringing this up, but it is the crux of the matter, where is the money?, and no arrests yet, any leads Keith?.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 10 May 05 - 03:03 AM

I have forwarded the Der Speigel link to one of U2's Press Officers not 2 mins ago, Wolfgang.

Libel is libel whichever way you look at it

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 10 May 05 - 02:25 AM

Looks like its time for 'One Man One Vote' in the States again.

Not being intimate with the US voting arrangements, can any of our Stateside brothers or sisters inform me of how one gets disenfranchised in this day and age, please?

This should make for interesting reading I'll bet, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 05 - 08:01 PM

Look at the housing situation in American cities, the prison population, education, employment prospects, the disenfranchisement of black voters in Florida and tell us again how sucessful the Civil Rights Movement was. No, don't tell us. Go to housing projects in, say, Chicago and tell the inhabitants that they have achieved equality with their white brothers and sisters.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 09 May 05 - 04:33 PM

The Civil Rights Movement was beaten back to the ghettos they were reviled as being coming from.
In 1969 The IRA was the only buffer the Nationalist community had against the State Forces/Loyalist Paramilitaries.
Non-violence was not an option.
Especially in Belfast, where the 'Blacks' were surrounded by very large group of hungry 'Whites'

You are, of course entitled to you opinion, Keith, but whereas discrimination can be legislated against, the above quote from Randy Newman shows the reality of these kind of situations.

I'm afraid the Nationalist people of the north of Ireland wanted a little bit more than that, and its the old maxim, really, isnt it?
You push a person so far, he'll eventually hit back.

And when you have dirty tricks brigades pulling bank heists to try and bring you back down in the mud again (where they think we belong), there's always people like you who sit in your ivory Hertford-like towers, and tell us what you think WE should do.

There was a NEED for barricades, Keith. Or do you think all the news reel footage was recorded for television on the same vacant lot in Hollywood where they staged the moon landings?

Either get real, or stop for a moment and try and empathise with the situation for a little bit longer than it takes you to sing one of those protest songs of yours.

And take your finger out of your ear!

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 05 - 04:01 PM

Waffling?
Well OK, but I was responding to a lot of posts at once.
My point was
Civil Rights movements arose in both countries
Both were subject to lethal violence from state forces
In US they persued non violence and were successful
In NI the leadership of what became PIRA used the opportunity to enlist the angry young men and began a killing spree out of all proportion (Amnesty International attribution of killings)
The Civil Rights movement was replaced by a movement reviled by most people outside the nationalist community, and a few inside.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 09 May 05 - 03:25 PM

Keith... you're waffling again

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 09 May 05 - 03:02 PM

Your point being?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:36 PM

Oh yes, and predjudice does still exist in the US and every other country, but every citizen is fully enfranchised and it is illegal to discriminate.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:33 PM

The Empire was gone by the 70s
We did sing old rebel songs.
Have you not seen the old news footage of ranks of State Troopers facing the Civil Rights protesters?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,William Gates
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:05 PM

He could always try a de bugger

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:03 PM

That's great, Keith.

Now we know how to bugger your system up at work

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 09 May 05 - 10:12 AM

Tell your browser to recognise 'Civil Rights'

Then tell your government

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 05 - 09:41 AM

I can not read recent replies here at work because someone must have used some rude words and the system rejects the whole lot.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 09 May 05 - 09:36 AM

Which has bugger all to do with any robbery.

Did you ever sing Irish Civil Rights songs in your folk clubs, Keith?, or was Civil Rights something that other cultures demanded.

I laugh away to myself at the idea that the English always supported the 'underdog'... like the cause of the black South Africans, for example.

The British Empire was based on some of that milk of human kindness, Keith.
Would you agree?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 05 - 09:29 AM

Den,
before the Civil Rights movement we did not know. As I have said, we used to sing all the US Civil Rights songs in the folk clubs, and it came as a shock that the same cause was being argued in part of our country.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 07 May 05 - 08:27 PM

Come on Keith we're talking about an army of occupation murdering innocents which is far, far removed from the situation in the US. Do you really, truely believe that the civil rights movement has prevailed in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: podman
Date: 07 May 05 - 07:51 PM

A braw brave paen to all ye sons of Erin:

The Gaelic Song Lyrics
by
The Arrogant Worms


Through the ages, through war, pestilence and sleet, the Celtic culture has survived, it's songs and dances passed from father to son, from mother to daughter, from uncle to goat. And though few still speak Gaelic, the ancient language of the Celts, all hearts are still stirred by the beautiful tones of this mellifluous tongue.

Ah ma wee hach patew mae bo clee hach maneagh
Heow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow BARK meow
Saigh hough loo loo cheow dach hagh vreigh chouach mouheaugh
Douauh meah mae couchah moo ma meagh pach hooragh

And though other cultures tried to destroy them, driven no doubt by their jealousy of the Celts' fine fashion sense and edible cuisine, they did not surrender. Actually, they surrendered quite often, but they were never entirely wiped out, clinging to the corners of small islands, their voices raised in song, the clarion call of the pipes ringing out to the heavens.

(Undescribably beautiful penny-whistle solo)

Ah ma wee hach patew mae bo clee hach maneagh
Heow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow BARK meow
Saigh hough loo loo cheow dach hagh vreigh chouach mouheaugh
Douauh meah mae couchah moo ma meagh pach hooragh

Ah ma wee hach patew mae bo clee hach maneagh
Heow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow BARK meow
Saigh hough loo loo cheow dach hagh vreigh chouach mouheaugh
Douauh meah mae couchah moo ma meagh pach hooragh
Meach bo meah mea bloh meah hoo noo euach moo doo beah

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 07 May 05 - 06:46 PM

"Now your northern nigger's a Negro
You see he's got his dignity
Down here we're too ignorant to realize
That the North has set the nigger free

Yes he's free to be put in a cage
In Harlem in New York City
And he's free to be put in a cage on the South-Side of Chicago
And the West-Side
And he's free to be put in a cage in Hough in Cleveland
And he's free to be put in a cage in East St. Louis
And he's free to be put in a cage in Fillmore in San Francisco
And he's free to be put in a cage in Roxbury in Boston
They're gatherin' 'em up from miles around
Keepin' the niggers down"

That kind of Civil rights, Keith?

.... Rednecks, Randy Newman

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 05 - 04:36 PM

We never rolled over and played dead Keith. Perhaps you should have lobbied your govt to act a bit quicker eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 05 - 04:19 PM

The US Civil Rights protesters were also attacked and fired upon.
They continued their dignified, peaceful protests and achieved all their aims, while Republicans in Ireland still wait 30 plus years later.
Would US Civil Rights have been advanced more quickly if they started back shooting young GIs, National Guardsmen and Police Officers, and planting bombs in shopping malls?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 05 - 04:26 PM

Dear guest 2.50pm will you please deter from muddying their rose tinted view of everything british. It confuses them.

They have truth bafflers fitted to their ears which deflect all fact . It is a little known private operation that has distinct side effects. One being they start to talk through their collective arses.


We have some sensitive souls here who still believe the Irish are savages that needed saving, and boy were they the ones to save us.

Sorry chaps. You never enhanced our beautiful country and we can't wait to see the backs of you. But please come back in the summer and boost the tourist trade now.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 05 - 02:50 PM

Kieth A said, "And I remember that everyone on the mainland sympathised with and supported the NI Civil Rights movement. A couple of years, months even, and public opinion would have forced the changes you are now anticipating.
But then came the bombs."

But the first bombs were British, i.e. the UVF. The first killings were by the British, the RUC and the B-Specials. Or perhaps acts of violecnce don't count if they were carried out by British forces.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: The Curator
Date: 06 May 05 - 01:41 PM

Jimmy, every time Sinn Fein made gain within the last few years there were forces working against them, Stormont spying raid, Castlereagh barracks raid and the Northern Bank robbery (no one ever charged with any of them) but it created enough stink and for Unionists to say it was the movement. Each of these occured within days of a sucess. And as ard said about the charges to be brought against a man for Omagh, that was the day before the election! Dirty tricks branch, we seen it all before, it failed then and will fail again. Martin just won his seat a few minutes ago.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Jimmy C
Date: 06 May 05 - 01:25 PM

"But getting back to the Bank riad, I believe that this operation was too sophisticated for even the P.I.R.A. My money would be on the possibility that it was the S.A.S."

I LOVE DAVID IKE AND HAVE 2 PILLS FOR BREAKFAST FOLLOWED BY A PROPER LUNCH

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: The Curator
Date: 06 May 05 - 01:12 PM

In 1969 Catholics got off their knees and the result has been the electoral sucess that we are watching unfold now. Gerry Adams vote is up again in West Belfast dispite the churned out propaganda against the party in recent months. As I have always stated on this site, before you run of at the mouth about the Northern Bank robbery what proof have you besides the words of parties who fear the sucess of S.F. and a police force who has the worst record of any European Police force in the courts of human justice/rights. The D.U.P/Third Force are going well too, Paul Berry said he is well up ! and wants a rub down. Sammy Wilson said it's like a bare buff nature walk ! ( You will need to be from North of Ireland to understand this).

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 06 May 05 - 11:44 AM

Kieth A said, "And I remember that everyone on the mainland sympathised with and supported the NI Civil Rights movement. A couple of years, months even, and public opinion would have forced the changes you are now anticipating.
But then came the bombs."

Wrong Keith then came Bloody Sunday. That changed everything. I know. I was there. There was little or no support for the IRA at that time but when British Paratroopers assassinated 14 innocent people at that now infamous Civil Rights rally things changed for ever. The IRA's numbers swelled.

As far British public oppinion of the nationalists cause in N. Ireland I think Guest May 5, 10:00 am is closer to the mark in terms of empathy, just another Paddy right Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Rat
Date: 06 May 05 - 11:34 AM

Nurse get the medication!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 05 - 11:21 AM

Some brits are unbelievable. If your country had been occupied by a foreign army and your people persecuted for centuries, not only would you be having red, white and blue street parties to celebrate the end of the occupation, but you would be singing twenty verse songs about the whole debacle for the next few centuries.

And you would also justify any means used to achieve that end, martyr those who died defending your country and decorate the living.

Get over yourselves. Move on. Empire builders sometimes have to watch the bulldozers move in and put right what you have spent so much money, life and time trying to destroy.

Meanwhile we will gloat for the next few centuries. Sounds fair to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 06 May 05 - 09:05 AM

Keith A, there may be an element of truth in your comment:
"And I remember that everyone on the mainland sympathised with and supported the NI Civil Rights movement. A couple of years, months even, and public opinion would have forced the changes you are now anticipating".

But how come public opinion didn't force those changes anytime during the long years between the 1920s & the 1970s?

The fact remains, that successive British Governments for over fifty years, were well aware that discrimination & jerrymandering were rife in NI, and they did nothing about it.

Having said that, this in no way excuses murder or terroriosm by any group, which is something I condemn without exception.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 06 May 05 - 04:07 AM

This is a nasty little thread, but 200 is 200. Eat my shorts Terry!

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 06 May 05 - 04:06 AM

199

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: The Curator
Date: 05 May 05 - 05:58 PM

Sorry the above post is from me. This is the second time today my name hasn't come up, Someone must know I will be posting our election wins shortly !

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 05 - 05:53 PM

Sorry but if you are to enter a post it is always wise to either know your facts or at least look them up. Robert Gerard Sands died whilst on hunger strike on the 5th May 1981.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 05 - 10:05 AM

Bobby Sands - Irish slimmer of the year 1972.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:36 AM

Hasn`t anyone noticed the timing of this man being charged for the Omagh bombing, the day before the Election, how cunning of the powers that be, and it won`t make the slightest difference to the Sinn Fein vote, they will become the strongest nationalist party after this Election.

Peter Corrigan the Solicitor for Sean Hoey, stated, " Absolutely no evidence has bee brought to date againsy Sean Hoey, the fact that the latest allegations has been leaked shows that it is a media stunt, Sean Hoey is a prine candidate for bail, he has never been convicted of any offence, my client denies all charges put against him.".

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 05 - 05:57 AM

Tiocfaidh you write
As far as the average Brit wanting to 'wash their hands of Ireland'--, that wouldn't have happened without a successful Armed Struggle. Painful to admit, eric, but true nonetheless.

Whatever you think of British people, as a group they always support the underdog.
I remember the boycott of appartheid S Africa, refusing to play sports with them and ejecting them from the commonwealth. I remember how Rhodesia was forced to declare independance fro us because we would not tolerate their regime.
I remember the universal support here for the US Civil Rights movement.
And I remember that everyone on the mainland sympathised with and supported the NI Civil Rights movement. A couple of years, months even, and public opinion would have forced the changes you are now anticipating.
But then came the bombs.
I still remember those scenes of the bus station. A fireman using a shovel on a bloody mess with long blonde hair. A wave of revulsion swept the country and set your cause back 30 years.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: The Curator
Date: 05 May 05 - 05:52 AM

The above post is from me, but for some reason my name didn't come up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 05 - 05:49 AM

Is a charge automatic guilt ? Ask those innocent Irish men and women who lay in English prisons throughout the seventies and eighties. Also those mothers who were released within the past few years for killing their own children. I would advise we wait until the trail displays the evidence at hand before we pass the guilty verdict.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 05 - 03:17 AM

I see that a suspect has been charged with 29 murders, by planting a bomb in Omagh.
It is years since the massacre (victims including Spanish schoolchildren on an exchange visit, and unborn twins) and the police and many people inside and out of the Republican movement knew well who the killers were.
He had already been convicted on a lesser charge, but advances in forensic science now allow the murder charge to be brought.

I mention this because some contributors persist in citing lack of charges as evidence of innocence.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 04:23 PM

Is this the same David Trimble who called the Catholic people of Portadown DOGS in 1995 ? I wonder did he regret going on stage with short ass from Dublin ?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:35 AM

Den, Trimble will disappear after he loses out to to DUP candidate David Simpson in the Election on May 5th.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 06:57 PM

Misleading tripe. U2 glorifying the IRA. Would that be the U2 with the lead singer Bono who during a concert in the Waterfront in Belfast trotted John Hume and David Trimble out on stage raising thier arms in salute and declaring them the architects of peace. Now really what does this wee man from Dublin really know about the north of Ireland. John Hume I can see but Trimble, an architect of peace. Trimble who stood on a stage at Drumcree and was photographed shaking the hand of Billy Wright the loyalist hitman. The same Trimble that danced arm in arm with Paisley down the Garvaghy road when the parades commission caved-in to loyalist demands and allowed them to march against the will of the local residents. Some architect of peace. Now Belfast, when it comes to racism I think the Germans know a thing or two. Wait a minute now there I go painting all the German people with the big brush. I think that statement qualifies me to write a magazine article.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: belfast
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 09:32 AM

Maybe the article loses somethin in translation. Or perhaps the journalist should have worked harder on his bits of local colour. If you told anyone in Belfast that you were going for a meal in the Europa Restaurant you would receive a blank look. Enter the name on a search engine and you will only be guided back to the Der Spiegel article. There is, of course, the famous Europa Hotel whose bar is a fovourite hangout for ladies on the night and journalists - honest whores and dishonest whores, if you will excuse the phrase.

And does anyone imagine that the words which the loyalists screamed at
the schoolchildren of Ardoyne was "little Catholic tarts"? The phrase sounds almost endearing. Perhaps "little Catholic tarts" is one of the delicacies served in the Europa Restaurant.

All this is good knockabout fun and we shouldn't take this trash too seriously but look at this
bit.

It doesn't matter that the Protestant Ulster militias are criminals and drug dealers, that they assault Chinese immigrants, paint swastikas on walls and have managed to turn Belfast into the world's most racist city.

It doesn't matter?!? Let's ignore for a second that lazy, stupid, journalistic "world's most racist city". That is possibly the least offensive thing about that appalling sentence.And no doubt someone will say that I am taking the sentence out of context. Go and look at the context and explain to me some way to read that sentence in which it is not disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 05:20 PM

Just read the article, what a load of crap. For one thing there is no "catholic district in Belfast" there are several to be precise.

Also the slight insult that started the fight leading to the death in Magennis's bar was actually a patron whose wife had been insulted by McCartney and who himself ended up with a slash across the neck, put there by Mc Cartney and his companion ( a well known hood). The patron and his wife had left the bar and were on the way to the hospital when McCartney got into the second argument.

As far as the bank heist is concerned, it has now been quite some time since it occured and NO POSOITIVE PROOF has been produced. So far it has all been rumours and hearsay.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: The Curator
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:56 PM

Waste of time ard explaining this to Wolfie, he is an authority on this and other subjects.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:02 PM

And of course I should have added, to date, the Police are no further in producing any evidence regarding who was responsible for the robbery.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:58 PM

Wolfgang, The reporters suggestion that that U2 supports the IRA, will certainly be viewed with incredulity by anyone from Ireland, the truth is, they are the IRAs biggest critics.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: belfast
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 01:53 PM

That anyone can find that article a powerful piece of writing is a strange notion. I find it, for the most part, a careless and tired regurgitation of propaganda. But that is largely a matter of opinion. That anyone can believe every word of it seems more like a simple impossibility.

Consider this.

the aura of martyrdom surrounding "Bloody Sunday" is today, an aura the rock band U2 has used to permanently enshrine members of the IRA in the roles of victim and heroic resistance fighter

U2 as supporters of the IRA? This is not the view of an outsider. This is the view of someone from another planet.

Or this.

Sinn Fein does little to address these problems. It appears to have no interest in democratic rules. In parliament, it had opponents bugged

This is not merely untrue (I hesitate to call it a lie because of the possibility that the writer actually believes it) it is the opposite of the truth. It was the leaders of Sinn F�in whose offices etc. were bugged.

All in all a fairly average piece of journalism.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 09:05 AM

Excellent! I agree with every word.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 02:56 PM

Thanks Wolfgang.
A powerful piece of writing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:05 AM

Sometimes an outside view may be interesting:

The Madness of Belfast (English translation of an article in the moderately left German magazine DER SPIEGEL)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:14 PM

walsh?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:00 PM

wrong accent. you lose.

Hey... I'm not Welsh !

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:58 PM

I hear that 'Hello' and 'OK' magazines have been outbid for exclusive rights to Charlie & Camilla's wedding... 'An Phoblacht' have offered £23m provided they get 2 clear shots....

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:57 PM

wrong accent. you lose.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:52 PM

G'po ?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:44 PM

It couldn't have been them. They haven't the time. Too busy buying widescreen tv's. Jaysus where did they get the money. I have meself thinking now.
Here's one for you GPO.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:41 PM

Where's the 'ra', then?

No need to answer...
They've been wondering where they've been for years...

They even think they pulled off that robbery...

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:36 PM

eksehtra.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:33 PM

How does one pronounce ETC?

Hate to be a pedant, belfast..., but you know the craic...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 04:56 PM

yewdeyeff?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 04:41 PM

Define 'word'

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 04:40 PM

Uddif?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: belfast
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 03:56 PM

Nit-picking pedants' corner. Surely it's only an acronym if you can pronounce it like a word, e.g. Nato, scub, UNESCO, ETC.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 12:26 PM

The UDF was something Andy Tyrie came up with in 1969, up around Magilligan... (He probably couldn't spell UDA right). It lasted to the degree that it made it to the list of official acronyms provided on the CAIN website, here.

I heard of the set of initials (vaguely) when I was growing up, like Den, in the midst of the conflict. They were never a player in the bigger picture, and it was soon forgotten about, once they got the spelling right.

brucie, on the other hand is just a fool, who spends his time on this forum, apologising for getting it wrong for some reason or another.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 03:16 PM

"IRA are not so stupid to believe that they can do what the British government couldn't ie. bomb and terrorise people into submission."

But they did exactly that, eric.... Bomb the British to the table

And a United Ireland is just around the corner.
Read my above post: 20 Feb 05 - 06:06 PM " that that aim is almost complete (a much un-accepted fact, I might add), its function is likewise almost complete.

Whoever else may have carried this out, eric (and others) it was not done in the name of a United Ireland. Ergo it was not The IRA

Naiveté is one thing eric. Pure ignorance is a different matter altogether.

As far as the average Brit wanting to 'wash their hands of Ireland'--, that wouldn't have happened without a successful Armed Struggle. Painful to admit, eric, but true nonetheless.

Makes you sick, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: belfast
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:43 AM

"Sean O'Callaghan, former head of IRA Southern Command"?

For an understanding of the mind of Mr O'Callaghan look at James Thurber's story about Walter Mitty. The major difference being that Mitty did not earn a living from his fantasies. For my own part I have not idea what everyone on this island thinks. I certainly do know some republicans who believe the bank raid was the work of the IRA. It seems what they actually mean is that they want to believe the IRA did it. Others, of course, don't believe it. In other words, no matter where you go, there would appear to be a wide range of opinions and speculatations.

And up to this point not a single, solitary, tiny shred of evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:19 AM

Tiocfaidh, why do you have so much difficulty in believing that IRA/Sinn Fein ever did anything wrong ? Is it becauce Gerry Adams says so ?
I can admit that the British government have committed great crimes against Ireland and the Irish people but one crime doesn't excuse another and IRA/Sinn Fein are not so stupid to believe that they can do what the British government couldn't ie. bomb and terrorise people into submission.

If a united Ireland was achieved tommorrow IRA would have no reason to exist, they only exist for their own sake.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:13 PM

eric the red seems to be another Pro-British Imperialist who has difficulty telling the difference between what one person thinks hardly anyone in the island of Ireland believes........

.... and a shred of evidence to support his theory.

(he probably thought The Guildford Four & The Birmingham Six should have been hanged at the time, as well)

Go on, tell me I'm wrong...
.. and I'll tell you (using your own logic) that I don't believe you.

And where would that leave us, eric?

A little redder on your part, perhaps...

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:25 AM

Please do not forget that the military wing of the British Government have been involved in murder and torture in Iraq, just carrying on from were they left off in every country they disgraced with their presence.
Look at how many MPs from Britain have been involved in fraud, some of the unlucky ones have done time in prison, squeaky clean was never the perorgrative of any power.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:13 AM

If it is proven that the IRA were involved in the robbery, we will see the effect this has on the electorate, judging by Nationalist reaction to the onslaught on Adams and co, it will strengthen their hand.
People I have talked to are disgusted with the political commentators on the media, there browbeating of every Sinn Fein spokesperson who appears is obvious to every viewer.
So when the election comes around we can then judge if Aherne, and the Unionists in the north have banished the Shinners forever, somehow I don`t think so.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:02 AM

Guest Tiocfaidh seem to be another IRA/Sinn Fein apologist or very naive.

Quote from Sean O'Callaghan, former head of IRA Southern Command [ Yorkshire Post 22/2/05 ] " There is hardly a single person in the island of Ireland who does not believe that the IRA carried out the Northern bank robbery. Why did they do it ? Because it's what the IRA does and because they have got away with murder,racketeering, mutilations,arms smuggling, training narco-terrorists in Colombia and much else without suffering much more than a slap on the wrist from either the British or Irish governments. "

Not bad eh!

eric

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 04:24 PM

It is interesting that no one has mentioned that almost all of the people questioned regarding the cash find in the republic have been released, including one who was a member of Sinn Fein.

There is also the scene where a large sum of money was found in a Police Sports club, of course it was planted by some republicans to take heat away from other matters. So let me see, the republicans were able to enter this police sports club, walk all the way into the toilet area carrying a parcel and walk out again without being stopped or questioned ?????>. Imagine a police club in N.Ireland with no security. GIve me a break.!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:32 PM

Bertie Has No Hard Evidence

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 09:29 AM

Some good analogies there Gervase. The fact is though. Sinn Fein is really the only National party in Ireland with members holding seats north and south of the border. Now I'm sure that Berti is nervous about that too. And just who on the loyalist/unionist side wants to embrace a united Ireland? Anyone? Lets try to answer some more questions how does this whole fiasco benefit Sinn Fein? They more than any other party have worked in accordance with the Good Friday Agreement. Why would they move away so radicaaly from the political path they have taken and one that has given them so much credibility among the undecided nationalist vote. Why haven't the authourities convicted anyone yet. They say the have the intelligence reports but still have not made any arrests. Nationalits do not trust the Police or the British Government with very good reason. So anything they say on the subject means nothing to Nationalists. See we've heard it all before.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Gervase
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:31 AM

I think Wolfgang's probably nearest the truth. There are plenty of hardliners who have no truck for Adams and the Good Friday process, and the republican movement is in the process of splitting all the time.
The Contunuity IRA, the Real IRA (thought to be behind the Omagh bomb) or some other independent faction could well have carried out the robbery, and I would imagine that Sinn Feinn and what's left of PIRA are spitting nails about it, because it plays into the hands of the die-hard 'no surrender' lunatics who will blame anything and everything on SF - much like the way the PLO gets blamed by Israeli hardliners for the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah on the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:08 AM

Keith ..We may want to get out, but our disgracful historical treatment of NI and its people means that we are inextricably linked to the loyalists .

We cant get out without being perceived as abandoning our most fervent supporters.

SF/IRA will quite rightly use this anomaly to their advantage.

There is no advantage to be gained by the British in trying to weaken SF/IRA position, as that tactic will surely speed the return to the bomb and the armalite...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 03:18 AM

Tioc
Something I can respond to.
There is no desire in mainland Britain to cling on to NI
We want out more than you want us out.
When demography gives the Nationalists a majority there will likely be street parties here.

Does anyone else still believe that the robbery was a huge conspiracy to smear the Republican movement?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:47 PM

Tiocfaidh...The IRAs' purpose is to construct a United Irish Republic, a sentiment I fully agree with.

The problem lies with the Loyalist population of the North, who will always be in a position to block this purpose.

Acceptance of the GFA and participation in the Assembly has actually weakened the position of SF/IRA.

While the armed struggle went on the British govt were desperate to make concessions, now that SF/IRA are safely in the "democratic" box ther is no need for urgency.
I think the penny has dropped with SF/IRA, that they're hopes are unachievable through "democratic " means and this situation has been cleverly engineered to give them an exit strategy.

SF will publically distance themselves from IRA, and continue to work for a democratic solution, leaving IRA to take up the struggle again and pile the pressure on Westminster.

Poor Tony, maybe he'll resign before the election!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 06:06 PM

The Irish Republican Army has only one purpose:- to get the British out of Ireland.

Now that that aim is almost complete (a much un-accepted fact, I might add), its function is likewise almost complete.

Whatever else is going on here; and remember also the much more serious, proven cases of collusion between the actual Law Enforcement Agencies of the six counties, and the illegal Loyalist Paramilitary Organisations, this robbery is not the work, nor the sanction of the Provisional IRA.

Fact of the matter is (much to the annoyance of many more, I further to add), that Sinn Féin is fast becoming an extremely viable party both north and south of those change in road signs that 'The Border' has become.

All the rest is just Party Politics, and so it will continue to be.
'The IRA' is a decent enough stick to brow-beat Sinn Féin with, especially if it gets you a sympathy vote at the next election.

And God help us, but Bertie and the bhoys need all the deflection they can get these days in the wake of the Ray Burke fiasco.

Nice to see all the Brits (both Eastern and Western) getting their collective knickers in a twist over this one.
You must be feeling rather impotent as you watch Britannia lose one more wave.
(as if you hadn't enough problems of your own these days....)

The Intelligence may well be sound (although would you take your country to War over it...., again?).
The bitch, though, really lies in the interpretation of it, don't you think?

And where have we heard that one before?

Grow up, for Christ's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:26 PM

As Wolfgang pointed out "Some subgroups reminiscent of the former glorious action days and not feeling fit for the political way of Sinn Fein, could use their military training and knowledge of weapons for a more private purpose.

This seems a far more likely explanation than one involving a deliberate action by the IRA in consultation with the Sinn Fein leadership.

If there was any political motive behind the robbery, this could only have been intended to stymie the peace process, and damage Sinn Fein. That could still be consistent with it having been carried out by Republicans opposed to the process.

Always remember, any speculation here is done from outside the loop, with only partial information, which is drip-fed to us through the media.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:11 PM

This just in: Irish government names three top Sinn Fein officials as IRA members.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:11 PM

It is getting harder to believe the denials of responsibility.
If as seems likely PIRA did do it, what of their tactic of withdrawing from arms decommissioning on the grounds that it was outrageous that they should be accused?
What of their refusal to allow photography of decommissioning?

Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:34 AM

If anyone thinks there is a differenc between Sinn Fein and the IRA they are at best niave at worst stupid.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:45 PM

wonder who the SF representative is that got scooped, at most as part of the Northern Bank raid gang and least part of money laundering for good old SF/IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:43 PM

"Why is it that some mudcatters have a screwed up sense of history? The British government, in cahoots with a bunch of transplanted folks, take a country from its inhabitants, discriminate against them in housing, schooling, employment. They detain them without charge, and harass little schoolgirls. When someone speaks up for them and takes the challenge, they are called an apologist. Why didn't you ask the question as to why so many think this Northern Irish policy implemented by the British government to keep control in Parlamaent to the detriment of the Irish folk living there is a good thing?

Pretty stupid question. And why didn't you question the apologists for the loyalist thugs?"

Interesting thing on t.v about "Tin Town" ? De va Lera's certainly did nt handle the IRA with kid gloves, he interned them for for years on end. What bias would he have been exhibiting, given his roots?

As for harassing little girls, atleast they were not murdered in their mothers womb.

If the title of the thread or the content of the post included the loyalist terrorists then your arguement would be valid. Ask the questions you want answered, see how soon people throw up the SF/IRA link.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:57 PM

With no immediate aim and much less of the former training and action, any paramilitary organisation can fall apart, even the IRA. Some subgroups reminiscent of the former glorious action days and not feeling fit for the political way of Sinn Fein, could use their military training and knowledge of weapons for a more private purpose.

'Rafia' is a name used to describe that development. Similar developments happen to the Loyalist paramilitaries, but they may lack the ability for such a coup.

It has been reported that people are being intimidated or prevented from assisting the McCartney family in their search for truth and justice.

We wish to make it absolutely clear that no one should hinder or impede the McCartney family in their search for truth and justice. Anyone who can help the family in this should do so. (IRA)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Steven
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:36 PM

I am certainly no expert on the Northern Irish question, either past or present but I think it makes little or no sense that the IRA was behind the Belfast robbery. If it was behind the robbery it did not do a very good job as it has been caught already (after only a month or so). Why would the IRA do this now? In the past I think they would have, yes when the 'war' was going on, but why do this just as the process is going forward? This may sound naive on my part but I don't think it is, after all what have they gained? What would be their motive aside from the purely financial? Of course those opposed to the peace process would have a motive, namely to derail the process itself. Logically speaking it makes sense (if the robbery was primarily politically motivated) that this robbery was planned and executed by those who are against what most sane people would see as progress.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:17 PM

Irish police investigating the funding of PIRA have arrestes people in Dublin and Cork, and recovered millions of pounds in Northern notes.

The IRA have denied the killing of Robert McCartney. Mr. Adams has not said whether or not he believes them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:29 AM

Gerry Adams will never ever say anything anti IRA for the simple reason IRA have a history of murdering their own if they speak out.

Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness are little more than terrorists themselves, and they made McGuiness minister of education for fucks sake

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:00 AM

"The IRA has said it was not them. I believe them. But maybe I am wrong....What I can say categorically is that Sinn Féin was not involved." (G. Adams, in an interview)

Interesting wording.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:21 AM

Akenaton,
On one of your points, I can respond.
NI situation is not used by UK government to manipulate domestic voting. Sadly, there is not sufficient interest here to make it an election issue.
None of the main parties use it in campaigns.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 05:28 PM

I see NI slipping back into conflict again ,after the false dawn of the Good Friday Agreement.

The blame lies on the shoulders of the Irish and UK governments, and the loyalist people of NI.

Both governments are indicted of cowardice and the use of the NI situation to manipulate domestic voting.   Also in failing to recognise publically the historical wrongs which led to the supremist position of the loyalist section of the NI population.

The loyalists are wrong in expecting their priviliged position to be allow to continue.

The two factions are so polarised, that I believe all the expectations generated by the GFA were false, as the loyalists never wanted power sharing ,and the republicans never really believed that a united Ireland was achievable "democratically".

Like Iraq, it seems there must be more bloodletting before the sins of the fathers are finally cleansed...Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:25 PM

Den,
I have no proof at all.
Hertford is in England.
I merely observed that the police on both sides of the border, and the London and Dublin governments all say PIRA was responsible for the robbery, and sought the views of others.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:18 PM

Now they are being accused of a murder.
The victim was a Sinn Fein supporter from a Republican area of Belfast. He was stabbed and his throat slit.
His family, including his wife and sister, say it was a PIRA killing and that senior Sinn Fein persons are involved in a campaign to intimidate witnesses.
The local community staged a candlelight vigil in protest.
RTE report

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 10:37 PM

Keith, can you detail your proof that the Bank robbery was in advanced planning by the IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 10:20 AM

This idea of having a serious discussion on the issue of the troubles isn't new on the Mudcat. We had quite an interesting one, with observations from both sides of the issue some years back. It revolved around the lyrics of "Back Home In Derry". You can read it HERE

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 07:44 AM

Pretty well all history isn't so much a matter of right and wrong, as of right and wrong and wrong and right.

It's not speculating as such I'm against, and I do a fair amount of that myself - it's when speculation is built on speculation, and people start treating the initial guesswork as fact, and forgetting how speculative it is. That's more or less what the British and Irish authorities have done in this case - and I think it's a good idea for the rest of us to guard against following their lead.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 04:50 AM

Sorry to double post ,but talking to friends from NI, I feel there is still an underlying sense of occupation in a large section of the population.

It might be helpful to try to explore how the representatives of those people deliver their expectations ,within the current political set up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 04:30 AM

Well McGrath .,as i think you know the history of NI inot a matter of bias, but one of clear right and wrong.
I have no religious or national bias, but can recognise the wrong that was done to NIs Catholics, by succeeding UK governments.

In these circumstances I think its permissible to speculate on the current problems. Every thread on Mudcat is in the most part speculation, so why should NI, or the conduct of the different factions be beyond the pale.
Could a discussion of the actions and motives of these people be a bit uncomfortable to certain folk on Mudcat?

You are correct in stating that any thread on NI usually ends up a shouting match between Republican and Loyalist sympathisers, but I think a bit of serious speculation might open a few doors in peoples minds...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:07 PM

I grew up in Montreal and am very familiar with most of the province. Things have levelled out in Quebec. I wish they would in Ireland. It is awful that people are treated poorly--discriminated against because of the religion they profess or were born into. I hope I haven't made light of that or given the impression I condone it. I do not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Jimmy C
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:28 PM

Brucie,
You are right of course about Quebec, it should never have happened as Canada is supposed to be a bi-lingual country, and I suppose if they had to change all the signs in Quebec to bi-lingual then would have to do it in all other provinces and territories and that would be a huge expense. I am not a french speaker but have travelled widely in Quebec, not only to the tourist attractions like Montreal and Quebec City. I have been to Riviere-du-loup, Trois Rivieres, Cap-du-la-Madeleine, Ste Anne du Beaupre , Berthier de Mer. Bromptonville, Magog, Charlesbourg and similar places and I have always found people who can speak english, sadly the opposite is not true. Quebecers are expected to speak english in Ontario and elsewhere. Being a French province I don't blame them for trying to preserve thair language and their culture, I just think they went a bit overboard with the signage question, as we say in Ireland - Tir gan teanga = tir gan anam. (A land without language is a land without soul).

The situation in the north of Ireland is different in that the nationalists want only civil rights, they want democracy, they want to be treated as equals, they don't want any favouritism whan applying for a job, they just want a fair chance of being hired based on what you know and not who you know, and the knowledge that being a catholic will not hinder your chances in any way.

By the way - Quebec is a beautiful province and I will be there again this year July 9th to 12th.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:35 PM

That's the kind of scenario that I had in mind by saying "probably". I don't exclude it, but I'd think a lot of other possibilities are more plausible. But I'd say Big Mick was quite right in that last post of his.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:29 PM

Agreed McGrath... But what if the SF/IRA leadership decided that the peace process was not going to deliver their objectives,due to the immovable stance of NIs loyalist community.
Personally I cant see a United Irish Republic being delivered through the ballot box any time soon.
Im very much afaid it will take another round of murder and mayhem from both sides before the politicians bow to the inevitable...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:21 PM

I don't see the point in the speculation. It is just as wrong to speculate that "The Brits" did it as it is to speculate that "SF/IRA" did it. That is just posturing on the basis of one's bias.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:09 PM

One can speculate and speculate and have all kinds of theories about why anyone could have set this one up - I listed a few possibilities up the thread, and I didn't by any means exhaust the range.

But as yet there's no convincing evidence pointing in any particular way. The one thing that is pretty unarguable is that whoever set it up, if they had any political motive (which they may well not have had, in fact), that would have been to try to stymie the peace process, and ensure that there wasn't going to be any administration involving Sinn Fein in the near future.

I'd say that probably rules out the core Sinn Fein leadership and the core British Government leadership - but it leaves an awful lot of other possibilities.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:58 PM

About 1/3 way down the page

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:10 PM

Bit of a conundrum this, could be as jimmy c says dirty tricks by the british government in colusion with loyalist interests to discredit SF/IRA and give an excuse to remove them from the political process.
But would the UK govt really want the return to the "armed struggle" that this would inevitably lead to?

The other scenario ,is that the IRA, realising that their objectives (united Ireland)were never going to come to fruition though the ballot box, pulled off the robbery leaving enough evidence to ensure that the UK government had no alternative but to expell them from the assembly.
This would ensure that SF/IRA could still portray themselves as the injured party and go back to "armed struggle "to deliver their objectives...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 05:18 PM

"My money would be on the possibility that it was the S.A.S., deliberately staged to discredit Sinn Fein and the I.R.A"

The SF and IRA have done a good job discrediting themselves at it is. I don't think they required help from the Special Air Service.

A similar sort of thing happened in Quebec when English language rights were taken from the English speakers of the province. Canada stood by and allowed it to happen. Approximately 800,000 English speakers had their language rights taken away. So, while I do make an effort to understand the Troubles--a process started by the British, I fail to see that Irish killing Irish brings the difficulties to a close or to a satisfactory conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 02:18 PM

What a wonderful wedding present and so much appreciated by Charles and Camilla, a half million Pounds of Northern Bank notes, this is real power sharing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 01:51 PM

After that Google I did which threw up one meaning for "UDF" as United Dairy Farmers, I've been thinking what some of the other sets of initials in the Northern Ireland Alphabet Soup could be used for, when they are no longer needed.

IRA - Irish Rastafarian Association
UVF - Universal Vagrant Fellowship
DUP - Dialectical Urban Proletariat
UDA - Urinal Disinfection Agreement...

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Jimmy C.
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 11:26 AM

Hi all, I haven't been here for a while but have been reading the submissions with interest. I would really appreciate it if some who write on this topic would read a little about the history of Ireland, especially the 6 counties. We have at the present time armies fighting all over the world for the cause of democracy, - That is what the root of the problem in N.Ireland is all about democracy or the lack of it.

This statelet was set up against the overwhelming majority of Irish wishes. It has been maintained ever since for one purpose only, that is to keep the northern catholics in line as second class citizens, discriminated against in housing, jobs etc.

What other countries call rights, the loyalists call concessions when it applies to nationalists. For the past 80 odd years the world has stood by and watched this happen, but if the same things were taking place in any other country the world would be furious, the U.N. etc would demand corrective action, but not in Ireland.

As far as the actions of the british and the british army I think you all know where I stand, they are a bunch of thugs in uniform, If they were not in the army they would be following the soccer teams to Europe and causing havoc wherever they go.

But getting back to the Bank riad, I believe that this operation was too sophisticated for even the P.I.R.A. My money would be on the possibility that it was the S.A.S., deliberately staged to discredit Sinn Fein and the I.R.A.- Think about it, all was going the way of the nationalists, they have adhered to the ceasefire - but that was not enough - They carried out decopmmisioning, witnessed by the selected people , but that was not enough, they offered to destroy all their weapons, and have it witnessed by a protestant and a catholic clergyman, but that was not enough. All this was leading to a lot of questions as to what do they have to do next.

To prevent them getting an increase in public ralations something had to be done to set them back - thus the bank job. In the middle of the day, in the city centre of the largest city in the north, where one cannot walk 20 yards without bumping into a policeman they were able to steal 26 million pounds and get clean away. No witnesses ?????. All of a sudden the accustaions come out - it was the P.I.R.A. - show us the proof, that is simple enough - show the proof. It is obvious that the authorities are stalling hoping against hope for some thread of evidence or hoping that some nationalist gets mad enough to do something stupid like setting of a bomb etc.

It is clear to me that loyalists politicians do not want the Good Friday Agreement to succeed, if so why is 80% not implemented yet. The loyalist want nothing less than to go back to the old days, with a complete surrender of the nationalists and the nationalist dream - well it ain't going to happen.

Show the evidence or shut up about it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:44 AM

Well you'd better widen your net there Eric. The British Army/UDA/UVF (remember the collusion reports or did we just make that up) deliberately targeted innocent victims like ALL terrorists do. Let me see Bloody Sunday springs to mind. Oh and you might want to talk to the parents of 10 year-old Stephen Geddis, chased down by a British soldier in the street and shot dead at point blank range (40 yards) with a plastic bullet. Then there's ex 13 year old Brian Stewart. Shot in the face with a plastic bullet from 10 yards by a British Soldier on foot patrol. Julie Livingstone made it to the ripe old age of 14 years old when she was shot in the head by a British soldier from a distance of 7 yards. Her crime, she was returning from the shop on an errand for her mother. Little Carol Ann Kelly who's family I know personally, aged 12. Shot dead by a British soldier from a distance of 5 yards. She was bringing home a carton of milk. Mind you they never checked the carton. She could have been carrying anything. A point that I'm sure was taken into consideration by the inquest because this soldier and none of the others I mentioned were ever convicted of any wrong doing.

Sadly I could go on and on Eric but I think your point is well made.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:34 AM

I have no disagreement with that, eric. My problem comes from one sided rhetoric. By omission, you give the loyalist thugs a free ride. Happens all the time. One talks of Irish terrorists and SF/IRA pops out, but rarely the various loyalist acronyms. The root of the Irish struggle is just, even if some of the tactics are not. I never agreed with targetting civilians, especially children. I just tire of folks that have a onesided view, and use the IRA as a convenient way to remain intellectually lazy.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:19 AM

Point is Mick we don't make excuses for what Ai Qaida did in your country, terrorism is terrorism full stop. and IRA/SF deliberately targeted innocent victims like ALL terrorists do, I don't care what the history is, chldren can never be legitimate targets, only the twisted ideals of terrorists accept this.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:03 AM

Unionists and loyalists do not want to share power. That's been the way of things since this state was brought into being. If you have been following any of this sorry scenarion since the introduction of the Good Friday agreement then you will see it has been one stall tactic after another to bring the fledgling assembly to its knees. If it wasn't Sinn Fein it would be any other Nationalist supported party that significantly challenged the establishment.

There you go, being an apologist again, he says with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Well said, Den.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 09:54 AM

Bruce, the public apology wasn't neccesary but I admire you for doing it, you're a civil man. I was satisfied that we had ironed out our differences privately, thanks again. It goes to show that communication is still the best medicine.

McGrath I did do a check on UDF before posting. Obviously I didn't check enough. What did you turn up? Mostly I was going by my own experience. I have already apologised for jumping to my feet a little quickly and Bruce knows the rest. UDF in the grand scale of things is still insignificant when it comes to the other organizations mentioned above.

I've said it before and I will say it again. Unionists and loyalists do not want to share power. That's been the way of things since this state was brought into being. If you have been following any of this sorry scenarion since the introduction of the Good Friday agreement then you will see it has been one stall tactic after another to bring the fledgling assembly to its knees. If it wasn't Sinn Fein it would be any other Nationalist supported party that significantly challenged the establishment.

Now the IMC has said that it has information linking high ranking Sinn Fein members to the robbery but guess what they are not divulging it. Funny though how they had no problems making empty accusations to the press.

The comedy continues. A major search operation in west Tyrone linked to the Northern Bank robbery has ended with nothing found, police today confirmed.

A business and two homes belonging to brothers Michael and Liam Donnelly from Beragh were searched by police for 36 hours.
During the searches, an area of land was dug up and police used radar equipment as well as divers to search a pond.

Nice to see all that intelligence gathering being put to good use.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:56 AM

Yeah, Kevin, I was thinking that as I wrote it. I apologize for snapping off there, but folks are always so damn onesided when it comes to this discussion.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:43 AM

The British government, in cahoots with a bunch of transplanted folks, take a country from its inhabitants... - be fair though, Mick, that could as well refer to the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:18 AM

Why is it that some mudcatters have a screwed up sense of history? The British government, in cahoots with a bunch of transplanted folks, take a country from its inhabitants, discriminate against them in housing, schooling, employment. They detain them without charge, and harass little schoolgirls. When someone speaks up for them and takes the challenge, they are called an apologist. Why didn't you ask the question as to why so many think this Northern Irish policy implemented by the British government to keep control in Parlamaent to the detriment of the Irish folk living there is a good thing?

Pretty stupid question. And why didn't you question the apologists for the loyalist thugs?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:23 AM

Why are so many mudcatters IRA/SF apologists ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:21 AM

Well, it only takes about ten seconds to check that about the UDF, Den. Not that keeping track on all the daft initials the paramiitaries used from time to time is too easy or maybe has much point. But it was you who put in a correction to a previous post by brucie, and the correction was in fact wrong.

One encouraging thing though - when I put UDF + Northern Ireland in Google, to check how long it took, the first UDF that came up was the United Dairy Farmers....

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:28 AM

Just heard on TV British Govt are considering re-convening the NI Assembly and excluding SF from the political process.

This bodes ill for peace in NI, as SF have the support of over 350,000 NI voters.

These voters will of course become dis-enfranchised should SF become excluded.
This would seem a strange stance for a UK government which espouses support for democracy in other parts of the globe...Ake


good point, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 05:27 AM

Brucie, I haven`t a notion, I had no problem with your apology, but thanks for giving me the chance to give Ian Og a faceful of dandruff.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 12:46 AM

The apology was given honestly, openly and without condition. Den and I have exchanged a few messages and he's a really nice guy. Thanks for that, Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 07:23 PM

Just heard on TV British Govt are considering re-convening the NI Assembly and excluding SF from the political process.

This bodes ill for peace in NI, as SF have the support of over 350,000 NI voters.

These voters will of course become dis-enfranchised should SF become excluded.
This would seem a strange stance for a UK government which espouses support for democracy in other parts of the globe...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 06:48 PM

Unless I missed something, it seemed like a straightforward apology, well given, and without condition. Well done, Bruce.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 06:21 PM

Hey, Ard,

I too am sorry you were the GUEST. What specifically got your shorts in a knot with what I wrote to Den?

BM

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 05:02 PM

You do that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:31 PM

Sorry I was the Guest, now i`m back after seeing Ian Og, nursing a sore pair of Henry Halls, but you should see Ian Og.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:27 PM

Brucie you have really touched me, now i`m off to give Ian Paisley JR a kic kiss.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:48 PM

Den,

I wish to apologize for my 'idiot' remark. That was uncalled for. The situation is idiotic, not the people. You are correct that your view growing up in NI is much more 'real' than is my view from books and movies. You have been a gentleman about all this, and I hope you'll accept my attempt at amends. I can be a real ass when I set my mind to it, and it seems this is one of those times. From the messages we've exchanged, it's easy to see that I'm the idiot in this equation. Thank you for your kindness and understanding.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:40 PM

Oh alright then, have it your way, no jokes. Den

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:31 PM

No.
Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:29 PM

Just a little joke Wolfgang. Den

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 02:51 PM

No.
Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 02:37 PM

No.
Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 10:11 AM

Wolfgang, just wondering, were you a hall monitor at your school by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 10:36 PM

All I was trying to 'prove' is that the UDF was not a typo on my part. The posts are quotes from various sites. I have also learned that they are not the generic label for organizations of that nature in NI.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 09:16 PM

McGrath, since you seem to know so much maybe you would like to enlighten me. I grew up in N.Ireland through the worst of the troubles, lived in Belfast and never was aware of the UDF. If it was some boy's brigade feeder group for the UDA then I stand corrected.

Brucie, "Ulster Defense Force (UVP) Description", not sure what you wanted to prove with that post but you then went on to describe the UVF. The UVF have been around for a long time.

If I have made a mistake then I apologise to all and sundry but the UDF if they were as you describe a training or youth group they were not major players as per the context of the posts above. Certainly not killers in the same league as the UDA and some of its off-shoots,such as the UFF and the Red Hand Defenders/Commandoes.

Its all very well to have the time on your hands to go searching through the internet for info. Its a very different matter to be on the ground and know what to look out for.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 07:41 PM

Den,

I could supply more if you wish. I think all groups have certainly committed terrible crimes in the name of the Cause. The people I have admired most: Mairead Corrigan and Betty Williams and their efforts in the mid 1970s. I likely don't know as much about Northern Ireland as you would like me too, and maybe I never will. But I do know I don't admire either side of the issue, nor do I care for what the English government has done, and you can take that for what it's worth.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 07:26 PM

Den,

From: http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/report/2004/pgt_2003/pgt_2003_31759pf.htm


"Ulster Defense Force (UVP) Description
Loyalist terrorist group formed in 1966 to oppose liberal reforms in Northern Ireland that members feared would lead to unification of Ireland. The group adopted the name of an earlier organization formed in 1912 to combat Home Rule for Ireland. The UVF's goal is to maintain Northern Ireland's status as part of the UK; to that end it has killed some 550 persons since 1966. The UVF and its offshoots have been responsible for some of the most vicious attacks of "the Troubles" including horrific sectarian killings like those perpetrated in the 1970s by the UVF-affiliated "Shankill Butchers." In October 1994, the Combined Loyalist Military Command, which included the UVF, declared a cease-fire, and the UVF's political wing—the Progressive Unionist Party—has played an active role in the peace process. Despite the cease-fire, the organization has been involved in a series of bloody feuds with other Loyalist paramilitary organizations.

Activities
The UVF has been active in Belfast and the border areas of Northern Ireland where it has carried out bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, hijackings, extortion, and robberies. On occasion, it has provided advance warning to police of its attacks. Targets include nationalist civilians, republican paramilitary groups and, on occasion, rival loyalist paramilitary groups. The UVF continues to observe a cease-fire.

Strength
Unclear, but probably several hundred supporters, with a smaller number of hard-core activists. Police counterterrorist operations and internal feuding have reduced the group's strength and capabilities.

Location/Area of Operation
Northern Ireland. Some support on the UK mainland.

External Aid
Suspected in the past of receiving funds and arms from sympathizers overseas.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 07:22 PM

Den,

"Ulster Nine-county province of ancient Ireland. However, the term is now commonly used by Unionists to refer to the six counties in Northern Ireland
Ulster Defense Association (UDA) Founded in September 1971, the major Loyalist paramilitary group, now outlawed
Ulster Defense Force (UDF) Loyalist paramilitary training group created in 1986 by UDA
Ulster Democratic Party (UDA) Founded in 1988 as ULDP (changed name in 1989), led by Gary McMichael. Links with UDA
Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF) Loyalist paramilitary group
Ulster Loyalist Democratic Party (UDLP) Former name of UDP. First formed by John McMichael of the UDA in 1981. Re-established in 1988
Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) Largest Unionist party, led by David Trimble, also known as the Official Unionist Party
Ulster Volunteer Force (UFV) Originally formed in 1912 to oppose Home Rule, re-established in 1966 and is now a banned Loyalist paramilitary group
Ulster Workers' Council (UWC) Loyalist organization founded to generate wide-scale strike action and civil disobedience in protest against the Sunningdale"

You might want to correct the people at this site:

http://home.att.net/~IrishPeace.com/Glossary.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,McGrath
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 02:02 PM

Of course there was a UDF. I wish people would take the few seconds necessary to check categorical statements like that before they put them up. There's enough confusion about this whole business anyway, without adding more.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 12:31 PM

Mural Number: 444
Location: Lisburn, Co. Antrim
Type: Unionist / Loyalist
Year: April 2000
Status: Still exists at location
Description: Symbols of UFF, UDA, LPA, UDF with Ulster flag, Union Jack and St. Andrew's flag, "In memory of Brig. J. McMichael. Murdered by the enemies of Ulster on 22nd Dec 1987. Never will be forgotten."

from the CAIN website (my emphasis)

maybe someone can go over there and have a look?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 12:20 PM

I don't think you know very much about N. Ireland at all. There isn't an organization called the UDF. Never was and probably never will be. (Den)

Perhaps you are right and there are more than 1000 typos on the web (google for "UDF Ulster") but there are lots of websites even giving a date when a UDF was founded. So if this is an error, it has been made by many.

One example (of many)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 01:10 PM

Brucie, I'd like to hear how your comments weren't meant to insult. I come from a nationalist background in N. Ireland, so are you calling me an idiot? I don't think you know very much about N. Ireland at all. There isn't an organization called the UDF. Never was and probably never will be. The Loyalist paramilitaries (funny how the loyalists belong to Paramilitary groups and the Nationalists belong to terrorist organizations) are as follows: Two main groups the UVF (Ulster Volunteer Force) and the UDA (Ulster Defence Association). The UVF are old school much like the official IRA are old school. UDA members also operate as the UFF (Ulster Freedom Fighters). The two main groups combined for a while until a violent split. Out of this split emerged the LVF (Loyalist Volunteer Force) and The Red Hand Defenders and another smaller group called The orange Volunteers who are largely UDA and UVF members operating under a different name. Thought I'd clear that up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 12:50 AM

"Paisley's mob or anyone else fools"

I'll call Paisley's mob's fools, idiots war mongers, but I will not point the finger at them and say you were the sole cause and the only asshole doing it.

Nor will I point the finger at Protestant people and say they are the sole cause.

We all forget that since before St Paddys time the Irish and English have been intertwinned.And not all bad that happens in Ireland can be blamed only on the English no matter how much I would like to to take the moral high ground some people try to do.

Accept it all our hands are dirty, you will never convince me that predjudism is unique to one side. Get real.

To get into the indepth reason of why such misguided people yell at school children takes honest dialogue, something that is sadly lacking on this board.

We have idiots dividing us on religous grounds rattelling on about the buck ejits in the orange order but not questions asked why they came about, maybe if the catholic's of that time had not attacked out laying protestant farms killing and maiming people than the OO would not have come about.

Both sides forget that Catholics fought alongside protestants with William, with the support of the Pope. And at that stage what would have been United about Ireland anyway, under a king who was a tyrant.

Do people forget about the Free Irish men, what was their religion Presbyterian, who have the most fluent Irish speaking people among their ranks today.

Life is not as black and white as it seems and no I am not defending loyalists nor the OO but trying to understand them. Just as I try to understand the IRA.

Look at the underlying reasons as to why things are done, maybe the people on the Ardoyne were driven to the action they took. Not much was reported on the trouble they had. And yes maybe those who were doing the ethnic cleansing of the protestants people from the Ardoyne had their reasons.

Something has to snap to make people react like that, its wrong, but maybe its understandable.Something makes them think their actions are just, just like the IRA bombing Omagh killing babes in the womb.

None of it is right,but finger pointing and deliberitly not understanding the other side solves nothing.

But of course there are those on both sides who see no wrong in their own.

Shame on you, narrow minded bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Guest The Observor
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 06:55 AM

Welcome back Belfast/ N.Ireland, or should I say Ireland, good to see your neutral loyalist views again.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 06:40 AM

Until someone in authority produces solid evidence, like some of the cash that was stolen, I and everyone else who have a mind to, can tell Orde, Ahearn, Blair, etc, that they are fools, produce the evidence, and then point the finger.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Com Seangan
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 05:32 AM

Freda; There are two very distinct issues. Please don't confuse them.

1. Is evidence needed before you make serious allegations against an organisation or against indiviuduals.

2. What is the solution to the mess in Northern Ireland?

Because contributors cannot present you with a quick fix solution to a complex problem does not that they don't have the right to refute the illogical stance of politicians in condemning Sinn Fein without evidence.

The problem of Northen Ireland is a a matter "of domestic British concern" as Margaret Thatcher was so fond of saying. And in a way she was right. The Problem was created by the British - they wanted control - (as they originally created the problems of the Middle East)- so the British should solve it democartically and according to the norms of natural justice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 10:28 PM

Mick, thank you.

I really wasn't trying to offend anyone: North, South or British. I do know the history fof Ireland--not as well as a scholar, but I know it. I know that historically the Irish had their country split by England. I know that Protestants and Catholics have difficulty getting along, maybe nowhere so much as in Ireland. I do understand 'gang' menntality because I came from a district that had gangs because we needed to have gangs for protection.

I look at the country--no, the Island of Ireland--and I see from afar a beautiful place with myth and legend intertwined; with what I really think is the most beautiful music on Earth; with writers and poets who can hold thjeir place with the giants of literature of this or any other time--and I also see evil, ugly, perverted bastards who would kill a child to further their cause. We see this in the mid-East. We see this with self-appointed fanatics who would corrupt the very heart of Holy to reach a place from which to declare, "Hey, boyo, we WON." What can anyone win by spilling the blood of people whose real heroism lies in living life, raising families, and just going about the daily things we take for granted. No, sir, I think the things done in the name of this cause and parenthetically most other causes degrade humanity. The Cause has a life of its own, and it is not dedicated to justice now--if indeed it ever was.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 09:44 PM

You weren't offending, Bruce. I just wanted to hear how you arrived at your conclusion.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 09:42 PM

I wasn't trying to offend anyone, Mick. My introduction to what has been called "The Troubles" was Leon Uris' book "Trinity". I looked further.

I grew up singing with a fellow named Trevor who was an Orangeman. My own grandmother was a gal from England who seldom had a good word to say about 'The Irish' until she discoverd after receiving the family papers (when her older sister passed on) and found the birth certificate of her mother: she was Irish Catholic. My grandmother grew up in England. In this hodge-podge, I was thoroughly confused. Who to believe about what?

I will go get internet sources to show that the IRA, UDF and Brits kill savagely and without any remorse in the name of their 'causes'. Sorry, but with regard to Ireland, I have no respect for any of them. The three groups have their killers: tehy use them. SAS, IRA, UDF. They put a nice look on things with front parties, but what I see is a group of people who have deluded themselves into the belief that their cause is just. No cause is just when little kids are killed. Wheteher it's a drill bit through the knee or a bullet to blow off the cap, a sniper shot from a thousand yards or a bomb that is less discriminate, these people are not heroes in my opinion. And I don't care who's side they are on. That's what I meant. Nothing more and nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 09:37 PM

Lest my position be misunderstood, no, I don't support violence as a solution. Anyone who thinks it easy to call the Irish, the Brits, Paisley's mob or anyone else fools there had better show their superior intelligence to come up with a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 09:24 PM

Bruce, I mean no offense, but that response is usually reserved for those that haven't been able to sort out the facts and come to an opinion. I wonder if you would be so good as to explain how it is that they are all idiots. I am not being a smart ass here, I just need to know. Freda has demonstrated her position with cites and information. Could you do the same?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 08:15 PM

And lest anyone mistake the intent of my post:

"They're idiots on all THREE sides." NI, Erin and Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:24 PM

What are the actual political options for a solution?

possibilities, options, arguments


who would want to live in Northern Ireland? It's so easy to criticise from afar.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:14 PM

why the IRA splintered

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Com Seangan
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:12 PM

Well Mow Mowlam (former UK Secretary for N. Ireland) put the cat amomng the political pigeons when asked on the Late Late Show if she thought the IRA was responsible . She said she didn't know. When asked if she personally believed that the IRA did it she said "I believe nothing without evidence".

That should be the response of Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair and all reasonable people. No accusations without evidence. IT is an acute embarrassment to the so-called "intelligence", who now claim that the raid was planned six months in advance and that Gerry Adams knew all about it. A good theory for poiticians who are scarec of the progress of Sinn Fein in elections North and south.

I agree with those who say -it would make a good movie. They did a reconstruction on TV Prime Time in collaberation with the Police. It was really hilarious and a reflection both on the bank security system and the police "intelligence".

Can you imagine any night Security staff at any bank not raising an eyebrow - when a Bank Manager arrives in after midnight and begins pushing out trolleys of "Rubbish" - and loading it on to a lorry - not once but twice ?? Did any of you ever see a Bank Manager push anything ?? And even after the job was done - no questions were asked by Security staff on duty who witnessed the dedicated Bank Manager wirking his but off with Rubbish in the small hours of the morning !!. It was a passer-by who became suspicious and called the Police - who arrived after two hours.

Yes - it woiukld make a good moview - with John Cleese as the Bank Manager and Rowan Atkinson as the Security man on duty.

Aw, yes. It had to be the IRA !! Lig dom.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:12 PM

One thing is clear - if the people who pulled this off had any kind of political intention, that must been to scupper the peace process. That in fact makes it a lot less likely to have been an officially sanctioned IRA job. Of course there are a fair number of people on all sides who might have that sort of agenda.

And if it was just about the money, without any political intent at all, that doesn't really sound as if the IRA would have been likely to have authorised it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:07 PM

It's yet another legacy of the British stragey of divide and conquer. Still divided, still conquered..

Ulster was part of Catholic Ireland until the reign of Elizabeth I (1558–1603) when, after suppressing three Irish rebellions, the Crown confiscated lands in Ireland and settled the Scots Presbyterians in Ulster. Another rebellion in 1641–1651, brutally crushed by Oliver Cromwell, resulted in the settlement of Anglican Englishmen in Ulster. Subsequent political policy favoring Protestants and disadvantaging Catholics encouraged further Protestant settlement in Northern Ireland.

When the Republic of Ireland gained sovereignty in 1922, relations improved between North and South, although the Irish Republican Army (IRA), outlawed in recent years, continued the struggle to end the partition of Ireland. In 1966–1969, rioting and street fighting between Protestants and Catholics occurred in Londonderry, fomented by extremist nationalist Protestants, who feared the Catholics might attain a local majority, and by Catholics demonstrating for civil rights. These confrontations became known as "the Troubles."

35 years later, still divided, Britain is still in control.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:51 PM

Bruce, don't mistake the intent of my post. It was simply to point out that anyone who calls these fraternal organizations isn't paying attention to the name. My beliefs with regard to the legitimate aims of the Irish people in the North of Ireland are another matter entirely.

I agree, Freda.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:47 PM

Just visit Belfast and you'll understand. Just watch some young Catholic kids trying to go to school on their first day, through a gauntlet of screaming Protestant abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 06:11 PM

Too true, Mick. Makes a guy wonder why the very people who saved the English language and produced some of the greatest song and literature take such joy in the killing of each other. The Irish in me is less than 10%, and the family then was Catholic. I grew up Protestant. They're idiots on all three sides. IMO.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 05:58 PM

Brucie, as you know, the acronyms are very clear as to what these organizations are. Irish Republican Army and Ulster Defense Force don't leave much room for interpretation.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 05:07 PM

"If people from the Isle in the North or in Ireland really believe that organisations like IRA or UDF are fraternal clubs, post under your real names."

This post was from me. I did it when the 'cat was down. Back door.

"Rather than follow the practice of unnamed GUESTs?"

So good to have your remark, McG of H. Brought to my attention that my name wasn't attached.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 04:41 PM

You first.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 12:03 PM

Rather than follow the practice of unnamed GUESTs?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:56 AM

If people from the Isle in the North or in Ireland really believe that organisations like IRA or UDF are fraternal clubs, post under your real names.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:50 AM

But there's no reason to assume that the IRA and the loyalist paras are the only players.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 03:27 AM

Not strange at all considering it came into the north I forget the name of the port that sails from Wales to Ireland. And you will not convince me that the IRA do not have sympathisers in Wales.

Believe me the loyalists simply do not have the gumption for such an adventure. They would be boasting about it in the local knee breakers.

"area for provies, and quite close to Thiepval British Army barracks."
Now that would make sense would'nt it, lets pull a robbery and have surveillance tape show it coming out of or around Thiepval.

Pathetic thing about this affair is, if the IRA said we did it all the hoo ha would be over with, as TB want N.I. off his hands he will accept almost any transgressions from SF/IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:57 AM

How strange that the Van used in the Northern Bank robbery was stolen in north Wales, not a known IRA stronghold, this part of Gwent is close to a British Army Barracks, video footage of the van was also seen in Lisburn, not exactly a welcoming area for provies, and quite close to Thiepval British Army barracks.



The DUP and their ilk tell us that "the dogs in the street know who did the robbery", I foolishley bid an old street cur "good morning" but i`m afraid there was no response, could be old Ian has worked his magic on the prod dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 06:53 AM

Perhaps we have to forego accountability on all sides for the sake of the peace process or else we will be constantly mired in the consequences of past crimes (however you wnat to define them).

What is more disturbing is the lack of moral leadership provided by all the leading parties in NI, as demonstrated by McLaughlin's remarks on McConville, the attitide of Paisley et al and the British Government's consistent avoiding of responsibility for collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries etc.

Moral integrity is the key to making the peace process succesful; at some point someone is going to have to show some.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 05:39 AM

Better to see the killing of Jean McConville not so much as " a criminal act" but rather as as a "war crime". That doesn't in any way make in any sense less criminal, in some ways worse indeed, but like other war crimes it has different origins from ordinary crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland.
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 08:40 PM

I have to correct myself.

Gerry Adams stated that the murder of R.Connolly(sp?) was not a crime, in other words the IRA do not commit crimes, and people buy into that.

Should be Jean McConville, SF chairman McLaughlin also asserts that her killing was not a criminal act.

Taken from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4186887.stm

"The party chairman said the killing of Jean McConville - one of the Disappeared - was not a criminal act. "

Also "The Sinn Fein member also agreed with a remark that the IRA was "the only legitimate government of Ireland".

Mrs McConville, from west Belfast, was abducted and murdered by the IRA after she went to the aid of a fatally wounded British soldier outside her front door in 1972.

The 37-year-old was one of the nine so-called Disappeared people who were murdered by the IRA and secretly buried during the 1970s.

The mother-of-10's remains were found at Shelling Hill beach in County Louth in the Irish Republic in August 2003.

So SF?IRA murder people but that's not crimminal,accepting that they are robbing banks does not take too much of a leap.

Is some accountability too much to ask for?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:28 PM

"Now they can go back to terrorizing 8 year old Catholic schoolgirls as they walk to school"

And nothing of the sort ever happens with protestant school children, I suspose stones throw themselves. I do not condone the actions taken by these people during the Holy Cross row, but if I apply the same understanding to the protestors that some apply to SF/IRA I can understand their frustration.

Maybe go as far as calling what is happening in that area as ethnic cleansing, or does violence just visit the Catholics.

In no way do I agree with any terrorist,loyalists are a spent force, as they should be. For me personally I can't wait to see the back of them, they are nothing but bigots out to get what they can. I do not wear rose tinted glasses.

Gerry Adams stated that the murder of R.Connolly(sp?) was not a crime, in other words the IRA do not commit crimes, and people buy into that.

The point is simple I am not saying the IRA did the robbery, what I am saying is that Orde and Ahern have the resources to make the statements that they made.

When we have people who live in a genuine fear of terrorists the concessions that SF has got does not make it look like SF/IRA are bending over backwards, quite the opposite TB is bendin over and taking it up the --=--= How many Army posts ,police stations etc are being taken down much to the dismay of people in the border areas. Maybe their feelings should not be taken into consideration.

This is the problem with supporting terrorists of any kind, it is the people who just want to get on that are caught in the middle.And what happens to them if they speak out, they get labelled with the same old tripe they are either loyalist or nat/rep thugs.

If the truth be told many in Ireland accept that it was the IRA behind the robbery, no agenda just the fact.

Thankfully all this will not stop the peace process if people want it they will have it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 06:49 PM

Holding people above suspicion because they are the favourite terrorist organisation is wrong.

It would indeed be wrong. Obviously the IRA is under suspicion. However, they aren't the only ones.

For example: breakaway Republicans raising funds; one-time IRA people using the skills they have acquired; the recognised loyalist paramilitaries; breakaway loyalists; ex-loyalist paras who've gven up on the politics, but are still into the crime; there could even be ex-IRA and ex-loyalist professional gangsters, in it together for the money. Then there's freelance military or police, from either side of the border; or dirty tricks from within the security services, authorised or unauthorised...

Some of these are far-fetched, some less so - but the thing is, nobody actually knows. And the officials who say they do know, but who haven't produced a shred of evidence, cannot be assumed to be trustworthy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 05:39 PM

Say what you want, but the simple fact is that it is all a dance. SF/PIRA have gone far and away beyond what the Loyalists have to make the peace process work. The Loyalists have done everything they can think of to sabotage the process for a very simple reason. They don't want to share power. Their gerrymandered system was set up to give them more power than their numbers indicate. It was designed to keep them at the top of the heap, and they don't want to give it up. And they might have finally succeeded in their desire. They might have scuttled the best chance they had to give the children of the North of Ireland peace instead of war. How nice. Now they can go back to terrorizing 8 year old Catholic schoolgirls as they walk to school

And you folks can go back to blaming everything on the IRA and the Republicans. Congratulations.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:40 PM

Quite simply, supply the evidence before you point the finger at the most convenient target, we have been listening to government lackeys for years spouting out propaganda, the facts buddy the facts, that`s all we want.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:36 PM

Blair giving Siin Fein chances? You seem to missing the bottom line and that is Loyalists don't want to share power. They never did. The DUP have only taken up the UUP mantle. Its the same old story stall tactic after stall tactic and if it weren't Sinn Fein on the receiving end then it would be any other Nationalist party that could challenge them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland.
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:13 PM

The point being the police named individuals and took action against them. IMO it was a disgrace which deserves a full apology to all concerned.

We have to get away from this untouchable attitude, no natter who it is that breaks the law has to be caught. Holding people above suspicion because they are the favourite terrorist organisation is wrong.

"And the government knew all about these non-existent stocks of WMDs in Iraq?"

Sure they knew, they knew they were wrong, but to suggest TB has any agenda on this issue is wrong. TB wants to dump NI like a hot stone, why has he given SF so many chances.

SF/IRA wants to be part of a democracy and part of that not holding yourself above the law or being your own law maker.

The bottom line is that loyalist would not have the intelligence to know the details that the robbers knew. If you think that loyalists can walk Poleglass and Twinbrook unnoticed you are seriously wrong.

I can understand how people can be sceptical of the government but only to a point.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:38 AM

Maybe it was an IRA operation, maybe it wasn't. But unfounded allegations mean bugger all. Or rather they just mean there is some political game being played.

The police knew who did the Birmingham bombings didn't they? And the government knew all about these non-existent stocks of WMDs in Iraq?

Trusting any of these guys is always likely to be a step too far. Sometimes they get it wrong, and say more than they know; sometimes for policy reasons they say things they know aren't true.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland.
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 10:06 AM

"The IRA may or may not be involved. But there is a little thing called the JUSTICE SYSTEM where these things are rightfully followed through upon, NOT A PRESS CONFERENCE. "


"Agreed Guest, and in UK individal suspects must not be labelled by police or press as probably guilty, nor evidence given against them."



"Personally I have no idea who carried out this raid but I do find Hugh Orde's assertion that he knows it was the IRA is, to say the least, unconvincing."

All above applies to individuals, not a criminal gang,the police have every right to say who they think carried out the robbery, until it comes down to naming individuals, therefore the criticsm is wrong.

In the bad old days when robberies etc were carried out by terrorists the police said either the IRA or UVF etc carried this out. What has changed to make this announcement wrong?

Take the blindfolds for goodness sake, Orde is far from stupid and Aherns advisors know what goes on also. Do not be naive enough to think that SF?IRA does not have a few people planted deep within their ranks.

I just hope that those who support the terrorist do not get on their wrong side, justice is swift and sometimes brutal, just like the latest stabbing.

But then it seems that republicans are complete angel's and can do no wrong, just like their loyalist counter parts. What was their cry "My only crime was being loyal".

Get the F--- off our backs and let us all live in peace, SF?IRA, UDA\LOYALIST apologists should be ashamed off yourselves, defending terrorists, while we in Ireland pay the price.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:54 AM

So far no sign of any Northern Bank notes being decommissioned.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:10 AM

IRA are so hurt and offended that British and Irish governments think that they could commit such a crime, that they are refusing to decommission any more weapons.
They are vey sensitive people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,DERRY MAN
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 06:35 AM

if were gone give up our guns .well we had 2 get the money from some were 2 buy nice ones so 26.5 milion wiv help us buy a few new stinger missiles .

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 10:11 AM

If he moves to Killiney there'll be questions. It amazed me how twenty men/women could hoist that amount of money without raising a finger to cause bodily harm. In England at Xmas a shopkeeper was killed for a couple of bottles of spirits.
Fair play.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 09:48 AM

Judging by his baps he may have included some of those notes in the mix.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 09:25 AM

Aha so the baker's the banker?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 05:41 AM

There is an awful lot of that paper money floating about here, Orde and his men have been made to look foolish, to date not a trace of the money, apart from the that which is being used to buy baps, our bread server will take any Northern Bank notes,and he`s not using them to wallpaper the house.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: belfast
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 04:37 PM

There seems to be a disturbing wave of commonsense and reasonableness sweeping through Mudcat. It is interesting to compare the postings in this thread to that which followed the "Stormont Spy Ring" raids. Some of the postings on that thread verged on the hysterical.

Personally I have no idea who carried out this raid but I do find Hugh Orde's assertion that he knows it was the IRA is, to say the least, unconvincing. It does, however, seem to distract the attention of the media and politicians from the amazing incompetence of the RUC/PSNI. Blaming the IRA and raiding the houses of a few republicans seems to keep everyone happy. There was a stolen container full of cigarettes, the Castlereagh break-in, and so on. Then the announcement, "The IRA did it", the raids (with the tv cameras etc invited along) and then …? And then the story goes away. No arrests. No convictions. I can't recall a single IRA member having been arrested and convicted since the ceasfire. The idea remains that the IRA were responsible and the police are doing their job.

A guest back there compares it to the intelligence which proved the existence of WMD in Iraq. Mr Orde actually goes further. He doesn't pretend to produce evidence, not even a dodgy one. We just have to take his word for it.

Here's a good response for other police forces suffering from similar lack of ability. "The big boys did it and ran away."

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:12 PM

Agreed, Kevin. Which is why motive behind the introduction of the speculation about the PIRA is completely suspect.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:00 PM

You could equally say, John J, "How is that the people who say the IRA did do this can say that, if they are not part of the IRA command structure?"

And in both cases the logic would be highly suspect.

At this time it is all just speculation. The only thing certain is that there has been this robbery, and that most of the notes taken are, in effect, so much waste paper.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Red Eye
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:31 PM

If they did it (PIRA) then good luck to them. I hope the money is spent wisely, rebuilding the lives of men and women who have spent much of their existence in British institutions fighting a great wrong.

Lete hear it for the Republican Prisoners.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 01:02 PM

You really have to ask?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: John J
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 01:01 PM

I have no axe to grind regarding the NI situation other than finding it all to be terribly sad and sincerely hoping that peace will prevail. However with regard to the bank robbery: Adams says he has nothing to do with the IRA, PIRA or whatever. Fine. He also says the IRA / PIRA had nothing to do with the bank robbery. How come a person who has nothing to do with the IRA / PIRA be so well informed?

John

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 07:13 PM

Gee. I love this site. Not because you agree with my views. But because you people think things out. When I hear on TV that "intelligence sources have confirned", I can't help thinking if these are are the same "intelligent sources" who confirmed the existence of Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq. The same "intelligence souces who found "incontrovertibe evidence" against the Maguire Family, against the Birminghamn Six and against The Guildford Four. Lig dom.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 05:25 PM

That's what it seems to be to me, Com.

Mick

Subject: BS: NI Bank Robbery and IRA
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 05:16 PM

IT would seem to me that the accusation of Sinn Féin being in the know, is a politically motivated ploy by political people who fear the political advances made by Sinn Féin both North and South of the border. Would fair minded members disagree ? WE are still waiting for any concrete evidence that the IRA were the culprits.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 01:16 PM

A few moments ago from BBC NI News, no sign of the white van used in the robbery, no trace of the money, and no arrests yet.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 12:53 PM

Henry McDonald has always been a virulent opponent of the PIRA, his nationalist background is Official IRA certainly no lover of Adams and co.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 12:45 PM

Hardly incontrovertable. It is just speculation like so much of the press about the North of Ireland. I don't know if PIRA was involved or not, if the loyalist para's were involved or not, and I don't see the point of suggesting it publicly. UK has a legal system, let them use it.

I am much more interested in the way Sinn Fein is seen in the Republic and in the North of Ireland, in the wake of the unsubstantiated charges. This seems to me to be just one more play to discredit, and jeopardize, the legitimate aspirations of Irish people.

Time will tell. JMO.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 12:35 PM

Incisive, insightful, interesting,and incontrovertable.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 11 Jan 05 - 11:41 AM

The politics of daylight robbery (found on the Guardian website)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 07:55 PM

...give the people who have been taking the fight to terrorists some credit...

Why? What I mean is, there's no particular reason to trust anyone in this sort of business. There've been lies in plenty from all parties, and dirty tricks of all sorts.

Obviously it's quite possible that this robbery was carried out by people in the IRA, acting officially or even independently. But there are lots of other possibilities, and mouthing off with firm accusations at this early stage just seems like playing games.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 05:41 PM

Sure Bertie's only worried in case they use the money to finance a Sinn Fein candidate to run against him next election.
Giok

I hardly think that is the case, when the likes of Carson, who came from where btw? Had A CHANCE IN 1922 to make something of the six counties he cocked it up. Prod Ulster for a Prod people, and loyalists wonder where they go wrong.

2005 and it seems lessons are not being learnt, a terrorist is a terrorist no matter how they are packaged, just take the rose tinted glasses off and look at them in the real light of day.

As for the charges being speculation, give the people who have been taking the fight to terrorists some credit, they do know what they are talking about.

My worry is this, "the lads are at it again" attitude, dismissing the actions as not that serious will do nothing but damage. This does nothing but instill's fear and if that is not counteracted nothing that SF/IRA say will resolve the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 04:28 PM

And that was something much more worth calling "the UK's worst robbery"...

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 02:24 PM

Carson and his ilk were the armed terrorists in 1922 the whole creation of the 'Sick Counties' was at the point of a gun or two, between the threatened mutiny at the Curragh and Ian paisley's role model in Belfast. Referendum! Democracy! What bloody democracy.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 Jan 05 - 12:32 PM

I agree with guest the terrorists were in power from 1922 and had free rein to do whatever they liked.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 10:29 PM

You can photograph all the weapons getting decommissioned now that there may be £2mill in hip pockets to replace them.

Asshole's the lot of them rep and loyalists, why do they not piss off and let us live in peace, maybe then a UI will come about.

As for our police, to assume that they are hand in hand with the loyalists indicates a complete lack of knowledge of the situation in N.Ireland.

Rep have their areas tied up just like the loyalist and the police will not go near either areas. As a local loyalist thug put it to me when I stood up to some hoods, the hoods got a kick'in, I got an apology, all I had to do was not involve the police, as they did not want any police to see what they are up to.

This crap Goes on in rep areas also and we still have misguided people looking upon tham as heroes.

To top it off, it was my neighbourhood police who suggested talking to the hoods. Our Housing exec actually go to the local hood commanders to sort housing issues out.

We miss the point when any terrorist gets their hands on power we all lose, it is just a matter of time til some crap happens to you, be you the terrorists supporter/apologists or not they do not give a dam.

What chance do we have???

BTW the reason that the IRA are being blamed is simple, the loyalists would have told everyone how they did it by now. Also the daft attempt to misguide the police by spending money in loyalist part of Belfast fooled no one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 06:46 PM

Sure Bertie's only worried in case they use the money to finance a Sinn Fein candidate to run against him next election.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Grab
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 06:45 PM

Robo, that's absolutely correct. The IRA and loyalist gangs run all the drugs etc. and do all the same sort of crap like intimidation, torture and murder that the Mob would. It's bilateral - the IRA and loyalist paramilitaries just provide a convenient cover for the thugs of both sides.

At one time this wasn't the case, but the paramilitaries on both sides have long since ceased to have any political meaning.

Personally I reckon it's a bit crap that they'd just say this and not back it up though. If they know something, then tell us, don't just say "oh, I'm sure it was them". I don't mind them saying that the paramilitary gangs are suspects - you'd be stupid to rule them out - but to pick one group out without giving evidence just makes you look biased and gives ammunition for all the bigots out there (which means every NI politician).

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 04:01 PM

Without some kind of evidence it's all complete speculation. And the fact that Bernie Aherne has come out with more of the same means bugger all - he's got an agenda here, as they say, just the same as all the other parties involved.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 05 - 02:52 PM

Ard Mhacha, I was hoping you would post. Joking aside, do you think it was them? Does it matter that it was being planned during negotiations? What of Adams and McGuiness' denials?
Also, joking aside, this was a terrifying ordeal for the family members taken hostage at gun point by hooded men.
Bertie Aherne has just blamed IRA.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 04:42 PM

Of course, in a movie, the police chief who was so eager to point the finger would turn out to be up to his neck in it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 04:38 PM

Seamus, Correct, I hope head cop Orde is right, we wouldn`t want the money falling into the wrong hands.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 04:05 PM

Saw the flick "The General" When the IRA wasn't involved in a big heist they felt slighted. I had a friend in Alaska who was playing tourist once driving through the North he was stopped on the road and his rental vehicle was 'requisitioned' by an armed party. Didn't seem to make any difference that he was a priest. I've got the impression that the IRA has maintained a patina of political respectability whilst filling in the activities of what we in the US call 'The Mob'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 03:51 PM

Shouldn't the thread title be UK BEST robbery, PIRA?

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 03:23 PM

Think you mean 'raze' Ake. 'Raise' is the opposite of 'raze'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM

It could be good news really. If the IRA are finally willing to disband to facilitate the peace process this might well be the funding for a "redundency package" to enable their members to have reasonable severence payments in recognition of up to 30 years service to the organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 12:42 PM

After 'Alexander the Grate', might it be with Ian Paisley junior this love interest?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 09:34 AM

If ever they get caught and the plot discovered...it's going to make a great movie.

Gripping, witty and with a heavy dose of human fraility I reckon. A superb soundtrack, beautiful wild scenery and probably Colin Farrell looking mean with a gun whilst at the same time, maintaining the love interest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: John Routledge
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 08:30 PM

Very sad Ake but not guaranteed to be untrue. :0(

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 08:05 PM

Could be wrong, but the police "incompetence" in stopping the getaway of the robbers ( apparently it was 2 hours before they responded) points more towards a loyalist operation,given the links between the police and loyalist groups.

An excellent wheeze to completely derail the peace process.

Just goes to show what a morass N Ireland still is, while we try to teach the world how to practice "democracy".

Maybe the yanks will need to come in, raise Derry to the ground and install a puppet government...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:13 PM

Still think they did it!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:11 PM

Agreed Guest, and in UK individal suspects must not be labelled by police or press as probably guilty, nor evidence given against them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:01 PM

So sez the NI police chief, under a tremendous amount of pressure from above to point a finger at someone, so he conveniently points it at the IRA, offering no proof whatsoever, and sending the DUP echo chamber into high gear.

The police are certtain of this? Brilliant. Let them prove it in a court of law, rather than the court of public opinion, then.

The IRA may or may not be involved. But there is a little thing called the JUSTICE SYSTEM where these things are rightfully followed through upon, NOT A PRESS CONFERENCE.

Subject: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:36 PM

We recently discussed the DUP insisting on photos of IRA decommissioning. (thread deleted?)
It now seems that while Sinn Fein were negotiating, a huge bank robbery was in advanced planning by IRA.
The police are certain of this, and hostages were taken to Republican areas.
Sinn Fein deny IRA involvement, but they did about IRA involvement in Columbia, etc.
Do any NI members doubt IRA involvement?
Keith.