BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up

Subject: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up eh?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 05:30 PM

Huh?

Within a week of taking office, Garge said he couldn't wait to meet with the Predident of Mexico, the USA's most important trading partner. Then, he didn't even know the name of our President, a la Rick Mercer and 22 Minutes (a Canuck news parody). Then, he waits a few years, pops into Nova Scotia for two hours and screws up thanks for all the help back in "9/11".

Fucked on the beef. Fucked on the potatoes. Fucked on the softwood lumber. Fucked on the missles. Fucked on Iraq. Fuckin guy wants to extend an olive branch? Why now, Garge? Gonna actually spend a few bucks on the Katrina victims and want our help... at a good price?

You like our oil. You like our potash. You like our iron ore. You like our nickel. You like our uranium. You like our diamonds. You like our electricity....

Why don't you like us? Or, is it that Garge has no fuckin clue, that fuckin guy? Olive branch? Olive the other reindeer.... fantasy?

Of course, Canada will not gouge the Katrina victims. Never gouged any of the other natural disaster victims. Hell, after Katrina, Canuck civilians and the Canuck Navy were there before Garge.... for free.... fuckin guy!

I suppose asking for a lift on the ban of seal products is out of the fuckin question?

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 05:39 PM

I thought this thread would be aboout Gargoyle...

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 05:46 PM

Well, Australia got the FTA treatment mate.

We have now worked out that means F*** The Aussies...

so looks like you got the FTC treatment...

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 05:54 PM

Nah, Kevin, Gargoyle just sucks, not sucks up.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 06:14 PM

How about a ban on baby seal hunting, Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 06:23 PM

You can't really call that stuff "hunting". There has to be more to "hunting" then going up to an infant lying there on the ice and clubbing it to death.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: bobad
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 06:33 PM

Yeah, like Chaney potting farm raised quail.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: bobad
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 06:36 PM

Oops Cheney, the intrepid hunter is to whom I am referring.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 06:54 PM

Can't get the link to work, gnu. Has baby bush opened his mouth and inserted his foot again? Sorry. We say that a lot here.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 08:00 PM

So, Gnu, how do you feel about George Bush? :}

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Peace
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 08:05 PM

. . . doin' what he does best . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Peace
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 08:12 PM

Almost like binary--just on or off, in or out, up or down, . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 08:12 PM

Foolestroupe, many Americans honestly think that by signing a free trade agreement with them we agree that the USA is free to trade any damn way it wants.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:15 PM

"How about a ban on baby seal hunting, Canada?" (michaelr)

Typical, arrogance!

How about the U.S., Britain, Japan. Italy and Australia stop killing innocent women and children in Iraq?

If you live in the outports, you kill seals so you can pay the rent and put food on the table. Its been going on for so long, its part of the culture. I may not agree with it but I can understand the seal hunt much easier than I can understand the slaughter of human beings.

Get you priorities straight.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:40 PM

They don't club baby seals any more. They stopped doing that in the early 1970s.

Are people in the US willing to give up eating veal in order to stop the killing of baby lambs? Are people in the US willing to take a good hard look at their own practices when it comes to animal cruelty?

One thing you can say for wild animals that are killed in a hunt... at least they got to live out in their natural environment for a while before they are killed. The conditions animals live under in most livestock factories (in the US and elsewhere) is nothing less than appalling.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Peace
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:48 PM

The images (photographs) here may disturb some people.

Inside some slaughter houses.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:55 PM

Carol you keep saying that but the seal hunts are back on.
Back to a new old way of life.

"free to trade any damn way it wants" yeah that's the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: number 6
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:56 PM

This is what happens to Sparky when he can't cut the grade and make anymore money at the track.

greyhound slaughter

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:01 AM

They hunt seals, but they don't club baby seals any more. It's against the law in Canada to club baby seals, and has been since the early 1970s. The reason I know this is because I'm married to a Newfoundlander.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:03 AM

"Since 1987, when Canada outlawed commercial hunting for whitecoat pups, the main focus of the hunt has been molted pups...." -- National Geographic, 2004. Additional links and resources for info can be found at the bottom of that page.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:06 AM

Right. They have to be at least two weeks old before you can beat their little heads in.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:10 AM

Let's get back to clubbing Bush (metaphorically). The seal hunt issue was beaten to smithereens recently on the Paul McCartney thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:12 AM

When they hunt seals these days, they use high power rifles to shoot young seals that are swimming in the water.

Most Newfoundlanders believe that clubbing is a much more humane way to kill a baby seal than by shooting them. The skull is very soft when they are very young, and death is instantaneous when it is hit with a club.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: number 6
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:15 AM

A lot more humane than an air strike on a civilian populated area in Iraq ... where some child gets his leg blown off, if not killed.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:17 AM

Over 9 billion animals are slaughtered in the U.S. every year.

If you are worried about seals being killed in Canada, you might want to follow your conscience to the site I've linked. Interesting read. I am posting without comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:31 AM

(sorry, thurg)

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:47 AM

heric - hmmm - do I detect a note of sarcasm?

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:54 AM

no you don't I meant it.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 01:11 AM

So what are you saying, it's a non-issue because there may be worse things? I am as outraged as most sane, reverent people about the Iraq "war". That doesn't preclude me from noticing other wrongs.

dianavan says "It's been going on so long, it's part of the culture." Is that supposed to make it OK?

I must say I'm surprised at (what I've been thinking of as) my fellow liberal Cats. We should feel outrage about Iraq and the beef industry, but not the cruel and inhumane slaughter of infant animals in the wild?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 04:06 AM

to give up eating veal in order to stop the killing of baby lambs

Pedantic point: veal is from calfs, not lambs.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 04:11 AM

Its part of the fishery. Are you going to cry for the fish too?

Its pretty easy for urbanites who shop at Safeway to condemn the seal hunt when they know absolutely nothing about depending on hunting and fishing as a way of life. If you have a house and a job to offer, maybe you can help these outporters to relocate but to mess with another person's traditional, livelihood just doesn't seem right. I don't think these people have ever threatened you or your livelihood in any way. Its not like this is some kind of sport.   

I could never club a seal and won't wear the fur but I just don't feel the same outrage that I do about children being killed in war, or from disease or famine. I am also far more alarmed by the condition of stock animals and animals that are killed by trophy hunter.

Its a matter of priorities. Maybe seals are more important to some people. My guess is that the people who are concerned about the seal population, are people who are not living around them and have no idea how invasive seals can be. Its sort of like being overly sentimental about possum or pidgeons or rats. Baby seals just happen to be cuter than the average animal.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 04:22 AM

michaelr

What is the Fuck is an "infant animal"? Do you eat eggs? Wear leather? Live on land that used to be animal habitat. Morally, each of those are about equal. So toss the log out of your own eye before you complain about the dust in mine.

The seals that are killed now, are killed from open boats with high powered rifles. These "infants" as you call them, hunt on their own and live with out the help and support of any adult. I wonder from you attitude if you yourself are as weaned as they. Do you think that the meat you eat grows on a tree behind the supermarket? Do you care as much about the "infant" beef in your hamburger. You do know that beef cattle are also harvested as juveniles don't you?

No one is saying you don't have a right to be outraged, if you choose to. But your priorities seem, childish, ill informed and hypocritical. Outrage over a whitecoat hunt that hasn't been practiced in thirty years and which has been illegal for 18, seems odd considering much worse outrages being committed by your own country. You'd think that Newfoundlanders were morally inferior to other people because they get their meat from the sea rather than the feedlot or the supermarket. Maybe you just want someone to piss on and you don't want to piss on yourself because you'll ruin your nice "infant" cow leather shoes.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 04:32 AM

Oops. Darn, that hurt. Oh well. Back at it. If you don't know, don't pay no nevermind.

Poor judgement to put that last sentence in the first post. Sorry.

The link did not work for some, so, here is the text, less the first sentence. I could not copy it without getting a pic in it and screwing it up. The first sentence just says that Garge is into a new word, "genuine".

*******************************************************************
Bush, in interviews before the Cancun meeting Thursday, said he wants to prove to Canadians that the United States "genuinely cares" by working to resolve tough issues like softwood lumber and plans to require new security cards at the border.


And while it's unclear exactly what he'll propose, analysts say all the goodwill boosts chances for some breakthroughs in the coming months.


"I honestly think he wants to renew the relationship with Canada and he sees the Harper government as the vehicle to do that," said Scotty Greenwood, executive director of the Canadian American Business Council.


"You've got to suspend cynicism and take him at his word. It's an enormously positive step."


And not really all that surprising, said Charles Doran, a political analyst at John Hopkins University who specializes in bilateral issues.


"He just needed a counterpart he could trust. There wasn't much ground for interaction before."


More like friction. Ties with the two previous Liberal governments were clearly strained by Iraq and Canada's decision not to join Bush's missile defence plan.


But they hit a low point with Martin's pointed criticism of American environmental policy and Liberal television ads during the election campaign that were widely viewed here as anti-American.


And while Bush made a point this week of saying he got along well with Paul Martin and Jean Chretien, it's clear he's viewing Harper as the best bet to help him with a big image problem in Canada.


"It's a vital relationship but it's also one in which there is a certain skepticism about the United States," he admitted.


"I will do my very best to find common ground and, through my relationship with the prime minister, convince the people of Canada that we genuinely care about our friends and neighbors to the north and will work to resolve different issues in an above-board way that is mutually beneficial."


In a roundtable session with journalists, he emphasized that he's not resentful about some "harsh words" that have characterized relations in the past few years, acknowledging that Canadians have every right to their own opinions.


"Part of the problem that we had was because of my decision to go into Iraq," he said.


"The government of both countries didn't agree. And I understand that. War is terrible, it's an awful thing," he said in remarks released Tuesday by the White House.


"I bear no ill will whatsoever and I understand the strategic importance of being close to our friends."


Bush's outreach to Canada comes at a low point in his presidency. He's facing record-low approval ratings, increasing anger among Americans about the Iraq war and global grumbling about a host of issues like how the U.S. treats prisoners in the war on terror.


That makes working closely on continental issues with Harper and Mexico's President Vicente Fox all the more appealing.

The three leaders will focus this week on the Security and Prosperity Partnership, an extensive accord on continental co-operation in security and economic matters.

"He very much looks forward to this trip," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan, who mistakenly referred to Harper as Martin a couple of times during Tuesday's daily briefing.

Harper's sit-down with Bush will allow him to push some of Canada's biggest pet peeves, including the softwood battle and U.S. plans to require a passport or other secure document at land crossings by the end of next year.

On Tuesday, Harper said he's not certain there will be progress on the touchy trade front and he'll vigorously defend Canada's interests, even if it means continuing litigation.

Softwood negotiations ended last summer after the U.S. refused to abide by a free-trade ruling in Canada's favour. Unofficial talks apparently were going fairly well but were stymied by the Canadian election campaign.

"We were close to getting it done at one point," said Bush, who acknowleged that the bitter battle had provoked ill feelings north of the border.

"I'd like to get the issue solved. I've told our folks that. Let's work hard to bring this issue to conclusion. . . . My strong signal is, yes, let's get this behind us."

But, said Bush, the Canada-U.S. relationship "is much deeper than softwood lumber," and he predicted there would be other trade tiffs to take its place.

"It's just very important to be in a position to have a relationship such that we can work through these problems."

Meanwhile, tourism and business groups fear a new PASS card being developed in the U.S. is too costly and will severely impede visitors and commerce.

"I'm pretty confident that if we work closely, we can develop . . . a card that can be dealt with on a scanning device," said Bush.

But he suggested that he doesn't favour the option of using enhanced driver's licences, promoted by many groups on both sides of the border.

"We have found in our own country that driver's licences aren't necessarily a secure document," he said. "Document forgery is a significant problem for our country, primarily for people coming in from the south."
********************************************************************

Genuine Garge and the olive branch. Right... and I am extra virgin.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 09:01 AM

But the thing to do, rather than kick him when he's down (way down), is to stifle a smile and look for the advantages to be had in the situation. They had him portray the lumber issue as a trivial dispute among many - Maybe that can be made his (their) first real olive branch (as opposed to mere words). One thing they're right about is that forever hammering through the issues is the only option.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 09:12 AM

I wonder where the terms "pet peeve" and "tiff" originated (to describe the lumber trade violations.)

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 09:29 PM

I don't think these people have ever threatened you or your livelihood in any way.

Irrelevant.

Do you think that the meat you eat grows on a tree behind the supermarket?

What an idiotic question.

a whitecoat hunt that hasn't been practiced in thirty years and which has been illegal for 18

So why is it happening now?

much worse outrages being committed by your own country

It's not my own country -- are you so stupid to think I make policy here?

Whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 09:36 PM

What about the UK being the center for childporn and female slavery?

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: bobad
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 09:42 PM

"So why is it happening now?"

It isn't. There seems to be a lack of information as to the subject of the slaughter in the seal hunt. Those dark-eyed, white-coated cuties that the celeb protesters are so fond of posing with are not being dispatched, it is the seal at a later stage when the fur is coarser and mottled grey in colour that is being hunted. It's just that the younger ones make for a better photo-op.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 12:18 AM

michaelr, it isn't happening now. Please read the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 12:24 AM

Oops. Sorry bobad. I seem to have missed your post somehow.

bobad made the critical point, though. I'm very much in favor of animal rights. But I don't approve of the way some animal rights organizations are blatantly misrepresenting what is actually happening with the seal hunt. They are using the white-coats in their fund-raising materials because white-coats are one of the best fund raising tools they've ever had. But they are being incredibly dishonest when they represent the seal hunt in that way, and I can't support people who use dishonesty as a tool, even for a cause as worthy as animal rights.

They need to find a new symbol for their fundraising efforts. Until then, they do not have my support.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 12:44 AM

Carol? Carol.

You said they aren't clubbing baby seals.

They're clubbing (and shooting)two and three week old seals (after their mothers have expended the energy weaning them).

You're still doing it AND you have the audacity to take a stand for truth in advertising??

By the way, O Sensitive Ones. McGrath merely pointed out that "hunting" was an overly glamorous word for this harvesting. Do you really want to argue with that? (And I have no doubt that clubbing is faster and less painful than shooting, btw.)

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 01:04 AM

heric, please provide a source other than the animal rights organizations to document your assertion that they are still clubbing. My source of information about this is my father-in-law, who, while not infallible, does live there and is pretty up to speed on what is going on in the vicinity.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 01:13 AM

Fisheries and Oceans Canada
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/faq_e.htm
"Harp seals can be legally hunted once they have moulted their white coat, which occurs at about 12-14 days of age. However, they are not usually hunted until they reach the "beater" stage of development at around 25 days old. Blueback (hooded) seals moult their coat as early as 15 to 16 months of age, at which time they can be hunted. The seals hunted are self-reliant, independent animals."

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 01:16 AM

Oh, sorry. You asked about clubbing. Answer on the same page. (It's the predominant method in the Gulf of St. Lawrence; much rarer (but permitted) off the Coast of Newfoundland.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 01:20 AM

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 01:25 AM

The animal rights organizations are still being dishonest about the white-coats. If they want my support, they need to be totally honest in their representations of what is going on. If they want to use the image of a seal as their fundraising tool, it needs to be the kind and age that is actually being hunted.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 02:36 PM

From: michaelr
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 09:29 PM

I don't think these people have ever threatened you or your livelihood in any way.

Irrelevant.

Yet you would threaten their livelihood.

Do you think that the meat you eat grows on a tree behind the supermarket?

What an idiotic question.

I'll defer to your judgment on that one. Anyone who would use a phrase like "infant animals" in a moral argument is obviously an expert on idiocy.

a whitecoat hunt that hasn't been practiced in thirty years and which has been illegal for 18

So why is it happening now?

Thank you for so clearly demonstrating your ignorance on the matter.

much worse outrages being committed by your own country

It's not my own country -- are you so stupid to think I make policy here?

Are you so arrogant as to judge my country when you will actually be able to vote in your own when you grow up and make a difference? Afraid to piss on your own shoes? LOL

Whatever.

Ah! A verbal indication of your maturity. The last resort of the infant critic!

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 03:09 PM

from a site (frequently asked questions) of the Canadian Fisheries and Aquaculture Management:

6. What types of weapons are used to kill seals?

Sealers use a variety of tools to hunt seals. Ninety per cent of sealers on the ice floes on the Front (in the waters east of Newfoundland), where the majority of the hunt occurs, use firearms. Sealers in the Magdelen Islands (Gulf of St. Lawrence) and on Quebec's Lower North Shore traditionally use clubs or hakapiks. A hakapik is an efficient tool designed to kill the animal quickly and humanely. Marine Mammal Regulations state that sealers must strike the seal on the skull until it's crushed, and administer a blinking eye reflex test or manually check the skull.

Together with heric's post that point should be clear now.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 03:19 PM

The official FAQ page that some may want to read.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 05:45 PM

Guest, JTS -- what is your problem? Forgot to take your medication?

I was expressing my distaste for the baby seal hunt. Such a comment is no threat to anyone's livelihood.

The baby seal hunt is happening. Whitecoat or grey seems a cop-out on a technicality.

This concludes my interest in discussing the subject with you. I don't like your tone.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: gnu
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 06:22 PM

This thread was about Garge clubbing Canucks. But, who gives a fuck about Canucks? Certainly not you seal huggers. You ain't never been as hungry as a Canuck clinging to a rock in the middle of the freezing North Atlantic Ocean.

Fry me up some baby seal lips. I am up fer a good feed... can't sell me beef... can't sell me spuds... can't sell me lobster... can't sell me crabs...

Oh, but if I had oil, and potash, and uranium, and iron ore, and nickel, and electrickety... ah??? What's wrong with this picture?

Back to the olive branch, eh? Shove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 09:29 PM

Jackass Hypocrites like you are the reason that there is no white coat hunt. Not that there is anything wrong with killing a seal of any age. There is no moral difference between killing a one minute old seal and a one year old cow, or a six week old chicken.

The only difference is in your feeble, Disneyfied, processed food from the supermarket, would starve to death if you had to raise or gather your own food little narrow mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: number 6
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 09:55 PM

The killing of baby seals resulting from human greed.

The killing of human beings resulting from human greed.

The killing of greyhounds resulting from human greed.

The killing of animals in traps resulting from human greed.

The killing of elephants resulting from human greed

the killing of ...

well, which ever way ya spin it, it's all gotta stop.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:27 PM

It's about food?

You mean the Canadian government lets its people go hungry?

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:31 AM

"You mean the Canadian government lets its people go hungry? "

... in some situations yes. Every major community has a food bank in Canada. Why, because there are people living below the poverty line, and when you live below the poverty line you are left hungry and in need for many of the basic necessities of life. On the rock, a whole community can be in need for food such as these villages out on the outback shores of Newfoundland and Labrador , and when that whole community is in need, there is no food bank. So one scratches out the best living they can do.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:10 AM

Harvesting seals has nothing to do with greed. It is dirty, dangerous work and it doesn't pay all that well. Its about a man making a living for his family any way he can. Its what men do and the motivation isn't greed. It is self respect.

Anyone who expresses the points of view that Heric and Michaelr are expressing is ingnorant of their own impact on animals. Someone killed a pig for the bacon they had for breakfast. Someone killed a cow for their shoes. Someone drowned a buch of animals for their electricity. Someone bulldozed habitat and "infant" animals to construct thier homes. The ship that brought the computer they type their complaints on may well have maimed whales and manatees on its way from Asia. It almost certainly poisoned fish and marine mammals with its bilge. So if you really want to help animals, go live off the grid and hunt and gather for yourself as one of them.

Keeping you conscience clear by whining about someone else's "sins" against animals is not an honorable option.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 11:47 AM

I haven't expressed any views at all, Jack, except that bludgeoning would be more humane than shooting. McGrath expressed a view, but you don't want to call him on it? You're just all over the board on these things. I can't tell if this is about food, as you started to imply.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:22 PM

Harvesting seals isn't greedy ... it's the demanding market for the pelts that is greedy.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:23 PM

Over 9 billion animals are slaughtered in the U.S. every year.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: gnu
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:03 PM

9B!! Goodness gracious. I had no idea. Approx' 30 per person. Something seems wrong with a number that high.

Ya know, I have often walked by the meat displayed at large grocery stores and thought, especially with the prices as high as they are lately, "I wonder how much of this stuff doesn't sell and I wonder what they do with it."

By the way, since the thread is no longer about Bush and Yankee business screwing over Canada on the "free" trade, and, since we seem to talking about animal cruelty (not animal rights... they have none), my pet peeve (pun intended) is the lobster tanks in those large stores. I have to avert my eyes. Surely, they could put the tank somewhere where the lobsters don't have to cringe with fear everytime someone walks by? And, in the Sobeys just up the road from me, the lobsters in the tank have a clear view of the cooked lobsters on ice... it's sickening. Am I the only one that finds this cruel?

Yeah, I know... I hunt and I fish and I BBQ every chance I get, but I don't torture any of them.

By by the way... does anyone else find "hook and release" a tad upsetting? My old man taught me never to shoot anything you were not going to eat. Applied to fishing, that means, if you ain't gonna fry the fish, don't torture it by hooking, playing, landing, and releasing it. AND, Bob Izumi, you REAL ignorant fuck, don't let it suck for air for five minutes while you yap about how pretty it is. If yer gonna put it back, put it back.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:12 PM

Each year, 10 billion cows, pigs, chickens, sheep, and other innocent, sentient animals are caged, crowded, deprived, drugged, mutilated, and manhandled in US factory farms. They are then hauled to the slaughterhouse and killed under atrocious conditions. Nine percent (over 850 million) never make it to the slaughterhouse, dying from stress-induced diseases or injuries.

Additionally, it is estimated that more than 17 billion fish are killed for food in the United States each year.

The above is from here.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:18 PM

"According to the Food Safety Inspection Service (FSIS) of the United States Department of Agriculture, 6.2 million cows, 12.4 million female calves, and 1.3 million male calves were slaughtered in 2001."

and another bit of info:

"Record numbers of chickens and turkeys are being raised and killed for meat in the U.S. every year. Nearly ten billion chickens, and half a billion turkeys, are being hatched in the U.S. every year. These birds are typically crowded by the thousand into huge factory- like warehouses where they can barely move. Chickens are given less than half a square foot of space per bird while turkeys are each given less than three square feet."

The second quote from here.

FYI

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:19 PM

I wonder why they don't count as much as 325,000 seals.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:05 PM

Heric.

Did you really argume about what you technically did or did not say then talk about what I implied?

No wonder you can't tell an infant from an animal!

LOL!!

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: number 6
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:15 PM

Regarding the seals ... the reason they are slaughtered are for their pelts ... to satisfy such demands and wants such as some pimp in Brussels who thinks it is very fashionable as to wear the pelt of some baby seal for underwear ... otherwise who else wants the pelt of a young seal, I dunno anyone who wants one, but there obviously is a demand ... as to the statsitics posted on this thread regarding the numbers of pigs, cows, and fish slaughtered .. well, everyone I know consumes the carcasses of those animals.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:40 PM

Thanks for talking sense Number 6.

I'm otherwise quite dismayed by the level of discourse in this thread. Your last post, JTS is utterly incomprehensible to me. Your infant/animal dispute, whatever that is about, is with michaelr, not me.

I told you I didn't express any views, other than that I agree that head bashing is the more humane way to go. I also agree that culling them very young is not only as good as, but in fact better, than killing them at a few weeks or months. Yet you can't even be bothered to learn that in fact I approve of the hunt. (I would rather have been discussing lumber, which is a subject near and dear to my heart.) What I do not like is anyone trying to justify something with falsehoods. Bad PR.

I don't blame you for being irate, Jack. You got caught not only misinforming your wife about the bludgeoning of pups, but allowing her (who is such a careful fact-checker around here) to unwittingly repeat your falsehood. You must be in a heap of shit. Man, I don't envy you. I'll bet an ice floe off Greenland is looking pretty good from where you're sitting, eh?

It USED to be about the whitecoats, but now it's about the food. But it's still the same tradition. But we're spitting mad about the whitecoats. That's as hard to digest as boiled seal meat. You should pick a story and stick with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 01:11 AM

I told you I didn't express any views,

Yeah you told me that. I guess that means you don't have any respect for my reading skills or my memory.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:06 AM

Right. They have to be at least two weeks old before you can beat their little heads in.

Excuse me for considering the above to be a condemnation of the practice. No views expressed there at all eh? I'm starting to see the reason for favoring animals over humans. It is your empathy for and resemblence to the common jackass.

There weren't aren't any falsehoods expressed. Carol said they don't club baby seals. She is correct on two counts. The only time the phrse "baby seal" is used is by protesters and critics of the hunt. The "baby seal" that Bardot coddled was a different stage of development than the ones that are now allowed to be killed.

The other thing is that there is no such thing as a baby FUCKING seal. Perhaps you are familiar with the word anthropomorphize. They are seal pups. They are meat and they are clothing and omega 3 fatty acids. They are not your little fucking brother. They are not Bambi and they are not thumper.

I'm not irate about anything my wife or I have said. I'm irate because liars and charletons who call them selves enviromentalists and idiots like Bardot and MacCartney. Are making fortunes and racking up sympathy points because the fisherman of my home province are easy targets. They won't attack the beef or poultry industry because those have the resourses to fight back.

My grandfather went out on the ice at sixteen years old and risked his life to make a couple of dollars to get his family through the spring. He "beat their little heads in" to use your phrase but he was no worse than a rancher or farmer where you grew up. Bardot called people who did what he did "savage". The MacCartneys called them barbaric. My Grandfather was NOT a barbaric savage. If he was everyone who wears leather, eats meat, lives in a house or uses technology is a barbaric savage.

I'll thank you not to imply that my Grandfather was a savage.

Number Six.

Everyone I know back in Newfoundland eats seal meat. I can't stand the taste, but my dad looks forward to the spring more than most people look forward to their mom's Thanksgiving turkey.

I've looked at the seal protesting industry, which seems to be much more lucrative than the seal harvesting industry, for thirty five years and mistruth and lies have been their only products. The seals are cute. The seals are babies. Their mothers cry.

On Larry King Danny Williams invited Paul McCartney to come to Newfoundland and see for himself, to see our side of the story. McCartney's reply? I'm here, I'm in Newfoundland. He was on Prince Edward Island. This is what we have to deal with. Ignorance, self imposed ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 03:18 AM

I would say this to my good friend sIx:

It is not necessary to eat meat. (I am aware there are exceptions that should be made for people with conditions like thalassemia, pernicious anemia, etc.) Most people do not need meat in their diets. And certainly not to the extent it is eaten in North America.

I do understnad where you are coming from to do with the sael slaughter being for pelts. So it is with beaver, muskrat and many other fur bearing animals. But either way, the animals end up dead to satisify human 'needs' or 'wants'. Frankly, I don't blame the hunters, trapper or slaughterers. If there's a market for it--whatever IT is--someone will supply it. It has ever been thus.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: heric
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:30 PM

JTS: I should have qualified one statement. I "approve" of the hunt on the facts as I currently believe them to be. But good facts are hard to come by. My opinion doesn't count for squat, except as a newspaper reader where you have a worldwide PR campaign going on against you. If, as they would have us believe, about half of the animals are maimed and left to die slowly, then YOU need to be concerned about, and addressing that. Ditto on the allegations of animals skinned alive and conscious. (They don't even do that in a slaughterhouse.)

That said, of course it was a miscommunication to Carol, caused by the near absence of clubbing in Newfoundland. Maybe I shouldn't have taken advantage of that. I realize this issue is far more significant to your family than the lumber futures market is to mine.

Be well.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 01:01 PM

Ah, screw the thread drift....

Maimed and left to die slowly? Skinned alive?

Well, gee, I guess I can only talk common sense regarding those statements.

Why would anyone waste their time being so inefficient? Time is money. Sealers ain't stunned. Whoever said that must be.

Why would anyone try to skin a live animal? Even Mrs. Saint Paul knows the little suckers bite if you are cruel to them. She's got first hand experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 01:09 PM

My father-in-law doesn't participate in the seal hunt, but I think he is a very good representation of a Newfoundlander, and I can assure anyone who cares to know, that he would NEVER leave an injured animal to die slowly. And he would NEVER skin an animal that was unconscious but still alive.

Anyone who would try to promote the idea that his is a common problem is committing a serious slander, and has a very dishonest and unethical agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,dianvan
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 01:13 PM

what gnu said

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 01:38 PM

Heric, You have to understand that the seal hunt protest industry is worth hundreds of millions per year, they generate more revenue when they lie and there is absolutely no penalty for lying.

Gnu is right. Newfoundland seal hunters who are on a tight budget, do not practice "maim and release" When you think about it. The idea that half the seals are maimed is silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: number 6
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 03:40 PM

Peace ... I most agree with you that we don't necessarilly require meat in our diet .. and you are certainly correct with the statement 'And not to the extent it is eaten in North America'. Being a vegetarian who falls off the wagon every now and then to savour the exquisite taste of a barbecued hamburger and Italian sausage I can attest to that.

We are humans and we have our 'wants' and we will go to all extents to acquire those 'wants' ... and in most cases the 'havenots' who have only the basic 'needs' at their exposer are the ones performing the harvesting.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 03:42 PM

The question I have posited has remained unanswered: Why are 325,000 seals more important than 9,000,000,000 other animals?

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 03:48 PM

sIx: I cross posted with you. My remark was NOT aimed at you. It's a general question. My own meat consumption is likely near 20 lbs per year; dairy about ten gallons of milk per year, five pounds of cheese per year and maybe ten dozen eggs. The balance of my 'diet' is largely composed of grains, legumes and vegetables. I admit to having a Pepsi per month and I LIKE it.

I have trapped and skinned animals for their hides. I no longer do that. Haven't fro decades. But then, if my family's well-being depended on me doing that, I would in a flash. I think sealers are faced with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: number 6
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 03:56 PM

OH I agree Peace .... I'm not against the sealers at all, in fact my posts have or should imply that I am NOT against them .... in fact far from critizing them at all. I understand and know these people.

I guess my statements regarding the 'harvesters' is a global one of the faults of capitalism ... the harvesters get the basic amenities of life, while the recepients get the pot gold.

Hey, this is a good thread for thread drift ... thanks gnu!

My biggest complaint against this hunt is the hypocracy of the American Humane Society.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 04:57 PM

sIX... hehehe... you are welcome. I really wish I hadn't put in that last sentence in the beginning post. But, perhaps we all know and agree that Garge is an ignorant prick and that big business is a club of very savvy and ruthless pricks.

So... the discussion goes where it wants to go. I guess I'll take credit for the thread drift, thrust upon me as it is. I don't get credit for much these days.

Now... I must tend to my salt cod what I got simmerin for cakes. Tongues and cheeks and cakes... and a wee drop o the pure. Heaven.

BTW, I prefer my onions diced and not minced fer cakes. How's by ye?

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:02 PM

Onions make me fart.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:06 PM

But, do you like onions?

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:06 PM

YES.

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: number 6
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:09 PM

Thanks Peace ....havin fishcakes for supper tonite, and yes with onions, now you've put me off of it ...... Jeeeezuz!

Garge is a bastard .... now I'll have to have a passport just to go down to shop at Mardens in Calais Maine.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM

Here's a good article on the subject from someone who lives there...

http://www.cbncompass.ca/index.cfm?iid=1197&sid=8333

(hopefully this will not be too big to fit into Joe's large screen)


"They are the rage in Europe, but the question is where do they get them?

We see them on television - white and blue sealskin coats - on the catwalks of Europe and the runways of New York.

They are on the news every night now - those fancy fashion models - wearing white and blue sealskin coats, slinking down the runways, one leg directly in front of the other, like a fox tracking a rabbit.

While they strut their time upon the stage, the news announcer in the background quotes the most recent aged celebrity who claims we Newfoundlanders are barbarians.

As we all know in this province, we are not allowed to sell the skin of a whitecoat or blueback seal. It is a criminal offence for our sealers to do that.

Ottawa made sure, about seven years ago, that we ordinary Newfoundlanders and Labradorians would not forget the law when they ordered law enforcement officers to raid the homes, business premises, and trucks of all buyers of sealskins in this province.

Law enforcement officers seized all records of the buyers and any blueback sealskins they found. Every person who sold bluebacks in this province was charged with a criminal offence.

I know all about it because I am still in court representing some of the sealers in ongoing court cases at several communities on the Northeast coast.

Over and over we see the whitecoat and blueback clothing on CBC, CTV, CNN and other news networks, while they talk about us, shamelessly suggesting something that we know is one big fat fib.

The truth is that those beautiful whitecoat and blueback sealskins come from Europe, Asia and the United States where it is legal to sell whitecoats and bluebacks.

In those other countries the law states that every seal can be killed and the pelts sold as long as the seal is weaned from its mother - this means they can be taken about 10 to 12 days after birth. A blueback can remain a blueback for a couple of years.

So, these European and U.S. protesters who are objecting to the killing and selling of whitecoats and bluebacks should stay home and protest in their own front yard.

But they come to our province, where it is illegal to do the very thing they are protesting against, and where the penalties are so severe for breaking this law that nobody does it!


Of course the real reason why the protesters are here is because Canada is the only nation that allows them to get close to a seal, let alone a seal hunt.

The law in the United States is called The Marine Mammals Regulations of Alaska. That law says that no person, other than a sealer, can come to within 100 yards of a seal. A film crew in an airplane cannot come to within 1,500 feet of a seal. There is also no provision in U.S. law to allow a protester to be given a license to do what the aged celebrities are allowed to do on our coast.

Norway, renowned for its very high standard of living, directly subsidizes the seal hunt with cash paid for each seal pelt. Norway even issues hunting licenses to tourists to kill seals if they want but Norway does not allow protesters to approach a seal or be in the area of a seal hunt.

The UK law respecting seals even allows fishermen to kill all seals that approach fishing gear or salmon rivers.

Greenland has an unlimited quota to kill seals.
They estimate they killed in excess of 150,000 pup seals last year. Norway and Russia recorded 177,000 kills and they count their seals differently. They encourage sealers to kill whitecoats and bluebacks in their first year of life because of their high incidence of natural mortality. Their quotas are set so that three seal pups are counted as two adult seals.

While Canada is the only place in the world where television cameras are welcome to witness and film, on site, the killing of seals, you might have thought there was hope for change with Newfoundland's own newly-appointed federal fisheries minister Loyola Hearn in charge.

Last week the minister claimed that it is probably better to licence the protestors to come and film the seal hunt to show the world that it is well regulated and humane. Perhaps it is too obvious to point out to the minister that cameras aren't allowed in abattoirs (nor should they be) and they shouldn't be allowed on the pristine white ice fields. The abattoirs are closely regulated and inspected, and so are the ice fields."

Subject: RE: BS: Garge... kinda late fer suckin up
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 10:47 PM

*musing*....(since the thread has long since drifed)...I wonder when NOT eating meat became a semi-common thing? We are descended from animals who were omnivores, and in some societies, being a vegetarian is not even much of an option.

There are several reasons to abstain from meat...health issues, religious feelings, economic reasons...or BBES........the dreaded Big Brown Eyes Syndrome. I will shrug at the first 3, even the religious one...but BBES bothers me. I have known a number of people whose concern for animals seemed to be related to how 'cute' they are.

I am certainly aware that raising ANY animals for food usually involves some compromise in the animal's situation in its brief life, but I have no idea how to put meter on it....does a chicken 'suffer' in mass feeding areas? Is half a billion animals for slaughter better than 10 billion? Sorta...yes...but why? For which of the 4 reasons moted above? A simple numbers game doesn't tell me much.

I am rather of the opinion that MANY fewer people would be a step in the right direction, and allow 'enough' animals to be raised or otherwise acquired that their condition would be far less an issue.

I don't thing there was much 'moral opprobrium' attached to Inuit hunting seals...for fur OR food...or to native Americans using masses of Bison for their livlihood.

There is an entire recent sub-branch of the Philosophy of Religion called "Situational Ethics" which attempts to get a handle on problems like this.....but like any subjective theory, it is largely a matter of whether one LIKES it or not.

Yes, I eat meat....ate quite a batch today (Easter), though I am trying to cut back on it a bit....but I guess much of it is the economic factor.