Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Nerd at work
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:20 PM

I don't know if that is specifically true about Aunt Molly Jackson and Lomax, though it would not surprise me. I believe it is true that various settlement schools bought Child Ballad books because they were considered appropriate materials for appalachian boys and girls. So when collectors showed up, they might get songs sung in someone's family filled out with verses learned from the books.

As for Ewan MacColl, I also don't know that he ever tried to pass a reworked song as a product of the tradition. Brian was just wondering...

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Nerd again
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:45 PM

Jim, it IS true, but it wasn't Lomax. In the Journal of American Folklore in 1956, John Greenway wrote:

To confirm my suspicion that the Sargent and Kittredge one-volume compilation of the Child ballads was the source of Aunt Molly's knowledge of the Robin Hood pieces, I wrote to Mary Elizabeth Barnicle, one of the early collectors of Aunt Molly's Songs. "Yes," Miss Barnicle replied, she had lent Aunt Molly a copy of the book in the early thirties. "I was scraping the bottom of the barrel so far as her memory of the British ballads went, and lent her the book in the hope that she might find something that would revive further memories. In a few days she came padding back to tell me that she now remembered some RH ballads. She sang them, more or less verbatim, as she had found them in the Child book."

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 07:36 PM

>> As for Ewan MacColl, I also don't know that he ever tried to pass a reworked song as a product of the tradition. Brian was just wondering... <<

Yes, just wondering. I suppose my notion that the melody of "Four Loom Weaver" is so magnificent it just *had* to be MacColl's own is in itself a compliment to his skills......

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 11:39 PM

Folkiedave-

Beethoven was indeed not the easiest person to get along with. I have no idea if any of the stories about Ewan --(which don't appear all hearsay--some in this thread have cited specific incidents at which they were present)--are true. Point is: even if the stories of Ewan being possibly at times a prickly individual are true, that does not negate his huge contributions to folk music.

Just as it might possibly be argued that Beethoven made great contributions to music.

Hence my suggestion that "Ewan McColl..Folk Friend or Foe?" makes as much sense as "Ludwig van Beethoven: Music Friend or Foe?"

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,The Big Iota
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:49 PM

Someone on this posting is erroneously claiming to have been a member of the CG. They certianly werent.

I used to box with the Briggs's brother.

Ted

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:53 PM

Hi Nerd,

Glad to see you back!

Sure, folk singers lie all the time. They call it folklore. :)

Ewan?   Compassionate human being. Sensitive about the commericialization of folk music and it's corruption in the pop field. Dictatorial? I'd say more impassioned about the music he loved. Someone who has strong opinions is bound to step on someone else's toes.


Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Tom Robinson
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 05:09 AM

Searching for information about Ewan MacColl brought me here - a fascinating read - a especially the posts from people who actually knew the man. It also brought me to these reported quotes from Shirley Collins in a The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jan/25/ewan-maccoll-godfather-folk-adored-and-feared. She may be misquoted here, or perhaps she's grinding a personal axe. But anyone else who's found this discussion as fascinating (despite occasional personal attacks by some posters) as I have, may also find this interesting...

Ewan had quite a pernicious influence on folk music, I think. People who went to the Critics Group [a study group for singers held at MacColl's home] ended up being moulded by him, sounding the same. Folk music should be about reflecting music from the regions, the different voices, the roots of it. You couldn't differentiate anything with his approach.

I first met him when I was 20 and my antenna went up straightaway. I genuinely don't want to be unpleasant, but he was unpleasant to me, quite sexist, and pretentious and pompous – words that should never be applied to a folk singer. He said to me that I shouldn't wear nail varnish. What a wretched thing to say to a young woman with an interest; what a way of putting someone down.

He was self-invented; there seemed nothing truthful about him, and that's always concerned me greatly. He was an actor, really, even as a singer. The way he'd turn his chair, sit astride it, put his hand to his ear... my heart would sink. I know it's not fair as he's not here to defend himself, but I've had my opinion since I first met him, and I've not seen any reason to change it.

He was a talented man, yes – you can't get away from that – who made some fine pieces of work, but he could never reach me like a traditional singer could, someone like George Maynard or Harry Cox. His influence now? Things have opened up. Nobody has to listen to what other people are saying. People are going their own way. That's the way it should be.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 05:29 AM

Seems little point in saying anything as you seem to have made up your mind and your question is purely rhetorical Tom
I worked knew and worked with Ewan and Peg for about twenty years and have shelves full of recordings of his actually working with people and expounding his ideas and attitudes towards folk music, but I suppose there is little there to interest you
The one thing I can say for certain is that at no time did he attack his fellow performers in public, whatever he may have thought about them (especially thirty-odd years after their death, as is happening here and will no doubt be expanded on in yet another kicking-fest)
Peggy onece pointed out that he is long dead and is no longer able to answer for himself - her letter making that request is to be found on the Living Tradition forum.
It would be great if people were actually prepared to discuss his ideas - that's never going to happen as things stand
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 05:57 AM

I think we can agree that McColl is the folk equivalent of Marmite. Some people love him and some hate him. Let's leave it there and lock this and any other McColl threads.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 06:49 AM

I'd forgotten this thread, which a posted a lifetime ago as a guest
Re-reading it, I find myself struck by the then-and now differences between the friendly and helpful exchanges of information and rational criticism (with the occasional "wanker" level light relief) and the position now where it seems impossible to have such a discussion now without it ending in tears
Were are the snows of yesteryear ?
It's all Brexit's fault, of course !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 07:16 AM

In my opinion he was a fine songwriter. and a good performer
I think there are certain aspects of the present day uk folk revival which would fill MacColl and Lloyd with dismay.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 07:22 AM

In my opinion MacColl was a good songwriter, but his performances left me cold.
However, I understand that others enjoyed his performances and I respect their right to do so.
I respect MacColl’s contribution to folk music, and I respect his right to Rest in Peace.
It’s a pity others refuse to grant him that right.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 08:24 AM

Crumbs, as a newie coming out of the recently, sadly, defunct Dick Gaughan forum I was struck by the confrontational nature of some of these posts, though I have seen far worse in less respectful forums.

I don't see why people shouldn't criticise (or express admiration for) Jimmy Miller aka Ewan MacColl - and since he had been married to Joan Littlewood then he would have borne the brunt, as well as being the bearer, of robust criticism. And - this is just my uninformed opinion - I think he'd have preferred to be discussed for better or for worse than to be left to rest in peace.

Me, I like him, but I know people in my home town of Salford who worked with him and found him a bit tricky to work with (but Joan could be a lot worse). He wrote the de facto anthem of Salford and other fine songs - my own gripe is that, because The Dubliners and The Pogues have sung it, a lot of people think 'Dirty Old Town' was written about Dublin. Hardly MacColl's fault, though, that it's relevant to there and to many other cities: it's one sign of a great song.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 10:15 AM

Dick Miles:-
In my opinion he was a fine songwriter. and a good performer
Hilo:-
this modestly talented man

Just opinions, but who is closer to the truth? We need some evidence. I would suggest that a man who could write lyrics as powerful and moving as these is much more than a 'modestly talented man'. It's not even amongst his best known or most sung compositions:-

THE FATHER'S SONG
(Ewan MacColl)

That's another day gone by, son. Close your eyes
For the moon is chasing clouds across the skies
Go to sleep and have no fear, son
For your Mam and Dad are near, son
And the giants just a shadow on the wall

Go to sleep and when you wake it will be light
There's no need to fear the darkness of the night
It's not like the dark you'll find, son
In the depths of some men's minds, son
That defies the daily coming of the dawn

Lie easy in your bed and grow up strong
You'll be needing all your strength before too long
For you'll soon be on your way, son
Fighting battles every day, son
'Gainst an enemy who thinks he owns the world

Stop your crying now let Daddy dry your tears
There's no bogeymen to get you never fear
There's no ogres, wicked witches -
Only dirty sons of bitches
Waiting to exploit your life away

Don't let them buy you out or break your pride
Don't let yourself be used and cast aside
If you listen to their lying
They will con you into dying
You won't even know that you were once alive

No more talking now it's time to go to sleep
There are answers to your questions but they'll keep
Keep on asking as you grow, son
Keep on asking till you know, son
Then send the answer ringing round the world

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 11:57 AM

I seem to recall a good few robust exchanges on the Gaughan forum, Vincent. But there's no Molly on this one, sadly! Now there's a mod...

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 01:22 PM

".I suggested that he was "moderately" talented"
Matter of opinion - it wasn't that I was referring to
That you are tired of discussions about him is neither here nor there - hopefully others aren't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 02:56 PM

MacColl had both virtues and faults, as of course do we all, but both his virtues and his faults were perhaps larger than most. I see no harm in discussing them. If discussion of the deceased were disallowed historians would be out of a job.

However I'm not sure that much can be added to the earlier discussion in response to the OP's question. MacColl did a great deal to steer the Revival. Steering it away from the heavy American influence was a good start and if he was heavy handed in what he steered it towards it has had plenty of time since then to diversify in many directions, some of them inevitably not to everyone's taste.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 03:05 PM

Obviously Jim didn't spend as much time with him as he claims. I heard him "attack" other singers. Usually floor singers for not being "indigenous" enough, me included.

He then went on to sing in a false highlands accent, (not anywhere close graphically or sounding as either his Salford accent nor his father's central belt Scottish.) Funny and inviting ridicule but we all have idiosyncratic traits.

None of this detracts from the bard status, the sympathetic genuine use of lyrics in song describing perfectly the people he was saving for prosperity, and indeed his obvious love for the living tradition.

The artiste and the person can be different. His track record stands on merit in every genre he is associated with and his talent is beyond reproach.

I happened to find the person, both when doing a floor spot with my hero listening or the two times I interviewed him to be a flawed person and not very likeable. Peggy came to my rescue in one interview, reminding him this young man was doing his best. I'm sure he may have been different with family and friends. We all are...

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 03:22 PM

Loving our world/our United Nations being multicultural (including English culture in England), I like the way he encourage folks to perform their own culture...and he had a great folk voice.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 03:43 PM

Good songwriter? None of "Dirty Old Town" even rhymes ;-)

DtG

(Ducking and running)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 03:46 PM

I can't see us agreeing on this. He seemed like an okay bloke to me

He never said anything about my nail varnish.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 03:56 PM

We’re all flawed. Every single person.

He contributed more to the folk revival than almost anyone else. Calling him a “folk foe” would only be possible if people considered the folk revival “not folk”, which in a way it wasn’t, but who wants to go there...

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 05:32 PM

IMHO the man's contribution is indisputable. Like every mortal there were faults and there's nothing wrong with discussing the full picture. I think most people here have more or less said that. He and Bert were of their time and neither were academics. Their legacy is there for all to see. As far as the British folk scene goes they were the giants of their time and any faults they may have had surely are greatly outweighed by what they left us.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 05:42 PM

"Obviously Jim didn't spend as much time with him as he claims. "
Twenty yrats is long enough for me - he certainly advised singers to sing indigenous material but some people regard advice as criticism
We've been through why he did this, but the fact that many people stopped trying to sound like Leadbelly and began to explore British and Irish repertoires speaks for itself
People can decide whether that's a good or bad thing themselves - it's certainly why Lomax suggested it to MacColl and MacColl took it up as an argument
Maybe it's time to dig Alan regularly and take him to task for that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 07:27 PM

OP:
"Did he help enormously by being so dictatorial about 'folk' music? Or has his attitude 'damaged' folk music forever?"

Neither.

Consumers don't get "Down" votes, just "Up," and one can hardly be friend or foe to a meaningless genre tag.

Reduced to MacColl's product it's the same old story. The attitude and politics is part of the packaging and the product. If a consumer liked it they bought in.

If not... you'll never know. Maybe they went with a genuine Belafonte calypso instead; maybe they skipped music altogether and played canasta. Maybe, like the vast majority of the planet, they never even heard of the guy.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 08:48 PM

This is speculation not an assertion of fact. It appears to me that over several hundred years Americans absorbed music from England, Scotland and Ireland and other areas of Europe and from Africa and welded them into what is now called American folk music, Americana, Jazz, blues and even Pop music. A rich and diverse American National harvest.

Just as we in the United Kingdom began to reciprocate this cultural combining someone comes along and proselytises cultural purity versus cultural combination. Has this success left us culturally poorer? Is English Folk music a cultural fossil, no longer alive and no longer capable of change or growth?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 09:08 PM

yes - indeed. what the academics consider to be English folk music is getting further and further away from the generality of English people.

Sad - but there it is.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 12:36 AM

I wonder if he was alive today how different the uk folk scene would be?despite his faults I think it might be a more interesting experince musically,possibly less commercial?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 01:21 AM

He might have come to positively embrace
the new developments of affordable good quality electonic instruments
and Computer recording software,
that has democratised music making for all.
Particularly working class kids in deprived communities,
forging their own underground music cultures and identities.
The real 'folk' music of now and the future......

Who'll ever know...???

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 02:52 AM

"Did he help enormously by being so dictatorial about 'folk' music"
He wasn't 'dictatorial' and it shows a lack of respect to those involved in the clubs bck then to suggest they would have allowed him to have been - we weren't a flock of sheep responding to the snapping jaws of a collie
The policy of singing songs in styles from your 'cultural backgrounds' (not town or city or county) was suggested by Lomax to get people to open up the British and Irish repertoires
As Peggy pointed out in a letter to 'The Living Tradition (still archived ana available on line), it was a club policy aimed at the residents - Ewan occasionally raised the matter with visiting singers as a suggestion, but it was never a rule - not even among the residents
Once it became clear that the revival had fully embraced its own national material fully it was never an issue - it never needed to be
The Singers Club was fully entitled to adopt such a policy - every club I have ever been to had a policy of one form or another, even if it was 'anything goes'

All this nonsense concerns something that was happening over four decades ago - the only time it ever raises its head is during discussions like this one - a stick to beat a dead man (same as name change)
That MacColl continued from its inception to shortly after his death, and still drew in international audiences for what it did says everything that needs to be said about having a policy based om integrity and a single form of music - I'd have retired decades before I did if I had been paid for every time I've had to queue to get in, or stand up,at the back or sit on the stage when I did.
Those were great, enjoyable nights of listening to the songs I love sung well enough to be able to appreciate them - it really doesn't get any better than that for me
More later, I'm sure
Jim Carroll

By the way Steve
"and neither were academics"
That is simply not the case
Neither may have considered themselves members of the academic Magic Circle, nor did they want to be but their contribution to the understanding of folk song as an art form is totally unsurpassed, even to this day
Both Ewan and Bert were very much leading members of a scene that knew exactly what the term 'folk' meant and spent their lives promoting exactly that
The confusion that now hangs over the term and the (hopefully not irreparable) damage that that confusion has created is very much a post Ewan and Bert phenomenon - people like them were the glue that held us all together
I'll explain what I mean when I wake up

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 03:09 AM

He made an impact. He is not going to make any more. What does it matter?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 04:10 AM

I remember going to The Brown Cow in Mansfield and laughing at Big Al's nail varnish. Ewan had warned me to look out for it and laugh.

---

OK, time to close the thread, kiddies.
-Joe Offer-