BS: Poverty in the USA

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 11:15 PM

Good job MG but it smacks a little of big brother and the ACLU would be the biggest opponent.

My eyes are screwed up tonight from pollen and cutting grass but basically the root causes of poverty is a bad family environment and a lack of education. A bad community environment, drugs, crime, gangs, Bad influences from the entertainment industry (folk music not included) run amok, in the name of profit. Bad role models being glorified for profit.

Kids should be shown right from wrong at an early age and taught to make the right choices. This is usually done by the family but it seems there is a new breed of parents now that believe this is not their job. They think it is up to the government and schools to guide their children's lives and be responsible for their welfare. All these patches applied to society reinforces that mindset, promulgates the problem and increases the number of people dependent on it.

I can hardly stand to watch most movies and TV now because of the sex, violence and, abnormal behavior depicted. Even kids movies need to have farting, nose picking, disobeying parents, lying, abusive behavior towards others etc. What's next, drugs and sex in kid's movies?

What kids see on the screen is emulated by them. By the time they get a car, they have seen so many fake car crashes where the people just get up and walk away that they are desensitized and don't really understand the consequences. Here's a movie about a cop who is supposed to be the good guy because he shoots the bad guy in the back while he is running away or beats information out of him unknown to the "Chief" and gets away with it. After a cars chase through town, through traffic and demolishing dozens of vehicles belonging to innocent citizens, he has a pistol and a bunch of bad guys are shooting at him with Uzis, firing hundreds of rounds. He draws a bead and fires one of, a bad guy crumples, then another. Of course the biggest bad guy has to die in a vat of acid or a blast furnace for extra shock value. The good guy has quite a few gunshot wounds with blood all over him but at the end of the movie he is going home to get some rest cause he has been crashing cars for three days straight through 18 gunfights. They are carting off the dead bodys as he heads for home, walking past the wreckage.

What can we expect from a society that is fed this unrealistic, violent crap?

What they should see is what really happens after you get shot or when you shoot somebody, beat up somebody or steal something. What you go through after you get pregnant and have to raise a child on your own or get jail time. Reality and the real consequences of making the wrong choices is what kids should be exposed to, not this garbage they call entertainment, it is poison. It is the exact opposite of all that is good and healthy for society.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 11:36 PM

"My eyes are screwed up tonight from pollen and cutting grass but basically the root causes of poverty is a bad family environment and a lack of education. A bad community environment, drugs, crime, gangs, Bad influences from the entertainment industry (folk music not included) run amok, in the name of profit. Bad role models being glorified for profit."

Dickey, I never thought I'd be saying this, but I will. Bravo! Your eyes might be screwed up tonight, but yer brain ain't. I think that post--the whole thing--is insightful, considered, thoughtful and smack on.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: mg
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 11:51 PM

I agree with the TV stuff especially..there is rotgut being served up to the whole nation every night. There is something very distressing..the very creepiness of some young and even not so young men being glorified. Not just foul mouthed, but dirty, unkempt, greasy..you will see a lot of them in various food commercials eating with their mouths open etc. And the cartoons are just appalling...they have to be insulting every ethnic group out there, using the foulest language possible, suggesting not just normal but inappropriate sexual behavior but wierd creepy stuff...it is very alarming to me. Might as well give the kids poison to drink. And we worry about the air pollution index. Perhaps we need an airwave pollution index. One of the worst has two not even very young men, probably in their 30s, taking a young boy, probably 13 or 14, and telling him these nasty things to say to women in stores etc. I have no idea how that is allowed to be broadcast and why it is not considered child abuse as well as sexual harrassment of the women.

And hooray. Rosie O'Donnell is gone from the View. She has a nasty mouth on her. I mean, stevedores (no offense) probably are always going to say bad words when other people aren't looking, but now they blast the air with them, on the bus, in the store......and that leads to other stuff...I think cleaning up the airwaves is a very important step we must take to reverse the fouling of America...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 12:09 AM

Thanx Peace. I reckon tonight I am the blind hog that finnaly found an acorn.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Wordsmith
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 12:31 AM

Just a little something I picked up off Yahoo:

Ore. gov. starts week on food stamps By JULIA SILVERMAN, Associated Press Writer
Wed Apr 25, 3:27 AM ET



SALEM, Ore. - If Gov. Ted Kulongoski seems a little sluggish this week, he's got an excuse: he couldn't afford coffee.

In fact, the Democratic governor couldn't afford much of anything during a trip to a Salem-area grocery store on Tuesday, where he had exactly $21 to buy a week's worth of food — the same amount that the state's average food stamp recipient spends weekly on groceries.

Kulongoski is taking the weeklong challenge to raise awareness about the difficulty of feeding a family on a food stamp budget.

Accompanied by reporters and food stamp recipient Christina Sigman-Davenport, Kulongoski headed straight for a display of organic bananas, only to have Sigman-Davenport steer him toward the cheaper non-organic variety.

The governor pined wistfully for canned Progresso soups, but at $1.53 apiece, they would have blown the budget. He settled instead for three packages of Cup O'Noodles for 33 cents apiece. Kulongoski also gave up his usual Adams natural, no-stir peanut butter for a generic store brand, but drew the line at saving money by buying peanut butter and jelly in the same jar.

"I don't much like the looks of that," said Kulongoski, 66, staring at the concoction.

Other shoppers in the store were bemused by Kulongoski's quest.

"Obviously, he doesn't shop often," Barb Sours of Salem said, as Kulongoski bounced around the aisles in search of granola. "He's all over the place."

Kulongoski did pause to chat with shoppers John and Bonnie White of Salem, telling them all about his $21 limit.

"Don't spend it all in one place," John White warned.

Along the way, Sigman-Davenport, a mother of three who works for the state Department of Human Services and went on food stamps in the fall after her husband lost his job, dispensed tips for shopping on a budget. Scan the highest and lowest shelves, she told the governor. Look for off-brand products, clip coupons religiously, get used to filling, low-cost staples like macaroni and cheese and beans, and, when possible, buy in bulk.

At the check-out counter, Kulongoski's purchases totaled $21.97, forcing him to give back one of the Cup O'Noodles and two bananas, for a final cost of $20.97 for 19 items.

After the hourlong shopping trip, Kulongoski said he was mindful that his week on food stamps will be finite and that thousands of others aren't so lucky.

"I don't care what they call it, if this is what it takes to get the word out," Kulongoski said, in response to questions about whether the food stamp challenge was no more than a publicity stunt. "This is an issue every citizen in this state should be aware of."

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 01:37 AM

You all have good points on what you claim to be the 'roots of poverty' and I especially agree with t.v. (video games an computers, too) creating a false reality and encouraging unrealistic expectations. I also think that anyone who thinks that its easy to live on hand-outs should take the same challenge as Kulongoski.

I do think that there are reforms that can be made to welfare to encourage those that are already receiving assistance to become independent. The way the system is set up at present, it is almost impossible to break away.

If you find work, its usually minimum wages and you can't afford childcare. On top of that, its immediately deducted from the monthly allowance. If you receive student loans, your children are no longer covered by welfare assistance. If your boyfriend moves in to help make your life a little better, you are cut-off or penalized. If your ex-husband is supposed to be making monthly support payments but is out of work or missing, you have to take him to court thereby ruining any possibility of a healthy relationship in the future (for you or your children).

Basically you are given no opportunity to make decisions that you think are best for your family. All decisions are made for you and you come to believe that you are powerless. The worst thing about welfare is that you have to sacrifice any degree of independence in order to qualify. If you want to escape the welfare system, you have to lie your way out. They seem unable to recognize that for most, social assistance is a temporary situation.

Sure, there are chronic welfare recipients but those that can be helped need more than worthless, back to work programs, more layers of bureacracy and endless hoops to jump through. Lets face it, by the time you are able to meet the criteria for assistance, you're too exhausted to have time to do anything else. It soons becomes a chronic condition for you and your children.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 12:11 PM

"JUAN GONZALEZ: Wal-Mart, the nation's largest employer, has formed a coalition with labor unions and other large corporations to call for quality affordable health coverage for all Americans by 2012. The coalition includes AT&T, Intel, Kelly Services, the Service Employees International Union and the Communications Workers of America. Three public policy groups are also backing the campaign dubbed "Better Health Care Together." Wal-Mart's CEO Lee Scott said, quote, "Our current system hurts America's competitiveness and leaves too many people uninsured." This is SEIU president Andrew Stern.

      ANDREW STERN: Today, I stood on the stage with leaders of American business, civic organizations, a former senator, to say it's time for every American to have quality affordable healthcare. I stood with Lee Scott, the CEO of Wal-Mart, a moment I never would have expected would have happened in my life, along with business leaders from Intel and Kelly Service and AT&T and another union leader from CWA. We stood together for a very simple reason. We share a common value and belief that by 2012, every man, woman and child in America needs to have quality affordable healthcare."

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/09/1614226&mode=thread&tid=25

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:12 PM

Well, okay, Dickey.... Good to see that the pollen, if nuthin' else, has gotten to you... Your "root" causes are purdy much accurate...

Now, if the pollen is still in control of your thinkin', can I see your roadmap for this very wealthy nation to move large nyumbers of folks outta of poverty???

And, BTW, do you know why Wal-Mart would be behind wanting affordable health care for it's workers???

Hint: Most of their employees live near or under the poverty line...

Hint #1: Five of the 10 richest Americans are Wal-Mart heirs...

Bobert

p.s. BTW, you seem to never have much to say about the Halliburton's of America who are the biggest welfare leeches on the tax payers... What's you view on them??? Do the tax payers "owe" them something???

p.s. Part B... Just like to follow-up on your crack that I, as a builder, don't shop for materials:

3000 ft. STK cedar sidin'
450 ft. STK 1X6
750 ft. STK 5/4X4
150 ft. STK 5/4X6

Lowes: $10,241
84 Lumber $8,257
Valley Bloc $6,957
Gilliam Lumber $4,275

Yeah, I shop... And guess who got the order???

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:39 AM

Been trying to follow the thread, without much time to post-or think-for that matter. It is good to read your 'voice', Dickey.

I agree with the comments of Dickey, mg, and others in that they highlight major societal problems. (And also tend to agree with Dickey's comments about big Brother and the ACLU.) I think they are universal issues for our modern culture that negatively effect nearly all families, schools, children. Among the poor, their impact is multiplied. Address those issues, and we would see a decrease in a number of the ills of modern society.

However, at the macro level, to the extent any of these issues or problems are more prevalent among the poor, they are much more a product of the conditions of poverty than cause. They are in no way 'root' causes of poverty. Some of them represent descriptive attributes found more commonly among people who live in poverty than among those who don't. But attribute and cause should not be confused. I think I said in an earlier post that the skills needed to survive are often not the same skills needed to thrive. They can, in fact, be mutually exclusive. And it may be necessary to have a different set of values in situations where physical, psychological and/or social survival is precarious. Ask Barry. Read his own story. Once he was put in an environment where the survival skills he had learned from an early age in the projects were no longer necessary, they were also no longer appropriate. But it is a good thing he learned and used them while he was in that environment. And it was a lot of work to set those survival ways of being in the world aside to a significant degree, and to learn a different set of skills and social values.

The 'root' cause of poverty is, and always will be, not enough resources. In societies where there are actually enough resources, but access to those resources is severly restricted by public policies that favor gross inequitable distribution of resources, what you are calling root causes, are actually simply some of the ways a society evolves to insure the playing field remains uneven. To the extent you address these issues, you are indeed creating greater opportunity for people to compete for resources. But the system itself will insure those resources will still be distributed in a grossly inequitable manner.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:47 PM

Well good for you Bobert for shopping around. What I meant was, as a former purchasing agent, contractors get bids or compare prices unlike a person who goes to a retail store and shops. I think Lowe's and HD rip people off after they drive the locals out of business. I have noticed that they are cutting back on their variety too. I saw a program about the rice of HD and at one point they would actually send a black wreath to their nearest competitor when they opened a new store.

Getting back to poverty. I am not a social engineer and I don't know how the fix the mess created by various forces but putting more and more patches on the situation is not working. If a feasible plan to clean up the social environment that these people live in could be drafted I am sure that rich folks and big corporations alike would back it. They are bristling with foundations that while being a tax dodge can still benefit the lower class. Get rid of drugs, rid them of bad influences, provide them with good influences, keep the financial predators off their backs.for starters. I have seen over and over again slums being replaced with decent brick apartments which turn into crap after ten years or so and the people are no better off. Something needs to change in their social fabric.

Like I said the ACLU would fight anything that would curtail these peoples right to self destruct. Like birth prevention, vaccination for cervical cancer or drugs.

Some companies would fight it like the entertainment industry who wants to feed them social poison, credit card companies who want to get them in a credit trap and some others I can't think of right now that prey on the poor. But others that would profit due to their increased income would be behind it. You mention Exxon. How do they profit from poor people? The more money they have the more cars they own and the more gas they buy. How does Microsoft or Bill Gates profit from poor people?

You have to give me some concrete reasons why the rich people and big corporations profit from the existence of poor people, not just some straw man stats from a left wing, pro-socialist, anti-capitalistic outfit.

Do you know that the third richest person in the world lives in Mexico? The next American is #6 on the list. Out of the top twenty, Americans are #1,2,6,11 and 12.

Here is one example. It is admittedly Company PR and hype BUT the money still gets given and somebody benefits:

Corporate Social Responsibility - AT&T Foundation

Our Giving Record

For more than 60 years, AT&T and the AT&T Foundation have committed $1.8 billion to philanthropic programs supporting education, community development, the arts, health and human services, and technology access in communities across the country. With its strong giving record, the foundation was ranked by Forbes magazine as being among the most generous corporate foundations in 2006.

With the creation of the new AT&T, the predecessor charitable organizations of the former BellSouth and Cingular are being combined. The new company will maintain historical commitments of charitable contributions and community activities. One example includes continued support for the 20/20 Vision for Education, designed to integrate technology into education in order to improve learning throughout the Southeast — particularly among low-income and minority students — to address the growing achievement gap and increase graduation rates.
http://www.att.com/gen/corporate-citizenship?pid=7736

$1.8 Billion is a crumb compared to what they made but multiply that by thousands and thousands of companies and you have some real money to fix the problem with.

Instead of engaging in class warfare, blaming and beating on these big, greedy, evil, companies and private citizens, they should be cajoled, wheedled and milked for that grant money and the money should be spent to eliminate the root causes of poverty, not just to ameliorate the effects and do nothing to stem the tide.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:51 PM

I am starting to like you!

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:29 PM

In case anybody thinks I am talking through my ass about grants from foundations, there is a search site for foundations. I searched on Virginia and found at least 1875 charitable foundations. They let you see their 990 tax returns and how much they contributed to what. After a random viewing of three, I found this:

ALLOY FAMILY FOUNDATION, INC.
Form 990 -PF(2005) C/O STANLEY MARTIN COMPANIES, INC. 20-31427 87 Page 10 Part XV Supplementary Information (continued)
3 Grants and Contributions Paid During the Year or Approved for Future Payment
Recipient If recipient is an individual,
show any relationship to Foundation Purpose of grant or
Name and address (home or business) any foundation manager status of contribution Amount or substantial contributor recipient Paid dunng the year

BOYS & GIRLS CLUB OF PUBLIC GREATER WASHINGTON, 8555 CHARITY 16TH ST., SILVER SPRING, MD 20 /A GENERAL 25,000.

SHELTER HOUSE, PO BOX PUBLIC 4081, FALLS CHURCH, VA CHARITY 22044 /A GENERAL 1,000.

http://lnp.foundationcenter.org/finder.html

I paid for one of my wife's formewr students tuition to clown college once and deducted it from my taxes. She had every intention of paying it back But I told her the only thing she owed me was her sucess. When you donate to a general charity, a lot of the money is eaten in over head, telemarketers, abvertizing, salaries etc. but when you give direct, more of the money gets to the destination.

I guess a lot of people do not trust the government or even a charity to spend their money in the places they would want it spent so they would rather have some control. Like Harry Reid wanting $20 million in pork to eradicate Mormon crickets.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:28 PM

Why Wal-Mart would be behind wanting affordable health care for it's workers???

Because that is what you are demanding Bobert. Now that it looks like they will comply you are still bitching.

Halliburton was given LOGCAPS by the Clinton administration under competitve bids in order to cut down on military spending. They were hooting and hollering and praising Halliburton about how much money they saved but now that Halliburton won the competitve bid again, under the same terms as the Clinton administration, Halliburton is suddenly declared evil because of Dick Cheney.

Do you believe in Witchcraft too?

Halliburton Foundation           
.
Established in 1965, the Halliburton Foundation supports education at all levels and charitable organizations in the following ways:

    * Matching U.S. based employee donations on a two-for-one basis up to $20,000 annually per employee for accredited junior colleges, colleges and universities;
    * Matching U.S. based employee donations to accredited elementary and secondary schools on a two-for-one basis up to $500 annually per employee;
    * Making direct donations to U.S. based elementary and secondary schools and colleges and universities; and
    * Recognizing and supporting active U.S. based employee volunteerism with direct donations through the Halliburton Volunteer Incentive Program.

http://www.halliburton.com/Default.aspx?navid=367&pageid=1003

Now Halliburton is being chased offshore so none of the money paid to Halliburton will come back into the US. Another drain on the trade Deficit and loss of jobs in the US.

But that did not keep George Soros from buying $62.6 million worth of Halliburton stock.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:52 PM

"When you donate to a general charity, a lot of the money is eaten in over head, telemarketers, abvertizing, salaries etc. but when you give direct, more of the money gets to the destination."

Now that I can agree with. There should be a tax deduction for those who want to pay tuition for others. In fact, why not a tax deduction for those who want to donate directly to the support of mothers who need childcare? I can think of alot of people who would rather directly donate to those in need.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:57 PM

Nah, Dickey... You still have a few bolts that need torqueing... The corporations, be it Wal-Mart or Whatever, Inc. have no interst in the poor... If they did they would step to the plate and give campaign money to candidates who favor restoring the "War on POverty" programs... But, no, they run like pigs froma gun from those kinds of cabdidates... They give to candidates who they think can win and who will keep the playing field unlevel in favor of the, ahhhh, corporations....

This is why I make the statement that the real welfare state has nuthin' to do with the poor among us, but the rich...

What Janie has pointed out about dwindleing resources to fight the supposed "War on Poverty" is the problem and it doesn't come around to a general lack of national wealth but national resolve... The rich have squeezed the middle class so hard that the middle class is now just 2 or 3 pay checks away from the poor house... They are living on the edge and "Boss Hog" knows it and knows that he can bust unions and bust the middle classes' rssolve to support funding for programs that "Boss Hog" has spent millions on PR folks to be made the scapegoats of why the middle calss is so close to ruin itself...

So, what we have right now is "Boss Hog's" ***perfect storm***... They have outsourced everything they can... Thay have hidden their profits from the tax-man... They own the governemnt lock, stcok and barrel and here we folk singers are talking about how to reverse these trends toward a nation that actually gave a danged about the poor among us??? Yes, a "perfect storm" indeed for "Boss Hog"... A "trifecta"... But the win for "Boss Hog" has a hollow sound to it in that he has won while having the power to change the rules allmost at will...

This is really what this is about...

Corporate greed and excess of power...

I have mentioned that it will take yet another revolution to get these greedy bastards to realize that it "ain't all about them" and I believe this strongly... Revolutions take their time to ferment and I can guarentee everyone that such a fermentation has begun... I hear it everywhere... Even the "rednecks" and "huillbillies" that I live around have no loyalty to corporate America...

So we can talk about solutions, and I don't think it takes a rocket surgeon to figure out that it's going to take some redistribution of wealth, but until the next American revolution, which in MO will involve "Southern Man", we're not going to be revisiting the "War on Poverty"... And poverty levels will continue to rise...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:04 AM

Bobert: You still have not given the motivations for all the evil corporations and rich folks to keep poor people poor. You assume the worst about everybody.

You keep talking about the real this or that like only you can see the way things really are. That is thinking from the dark ages. Things are what they seem. Talk about being in denial, You take the prize.

Companies are not going to donate to the campaign of politicians who are against them. Whould you donate to a candidate that goes around badmouthing contractors and blaming them for keeping people poor?

Now show me a working model of the redistribution of wealth. It it Cuba? Is it North Korea? They don't have all those greedy rich people and corporations and all of the people get the same thing equally, they get shit.

Did the French Revolution of 1789 do all that much for the French? The Islamic revolution of Iran? The Mexican revolution? the 4 Russian Revolutions? The Chinese Revolution?

Show me where a revolution, other than the American revolution or war of independance, has brought human rights up to American standards.

You just need to get your head screwed on straight and figure out a way to keep those people from falling in the poverty trap to begin with.

I know a contractor in Oregon who has been going down to New Orleans with a whole bunch of other contractors in a church group and fixing up peoples houses for them. Your idea of helping folks is starting a revolution that will force the government to make up for everything that might happen to people. Like a nursemaid for everybody in the world and have someone else pay for it. That's real charitable. By the time you get through, there won't be anybody able to pay for anything including yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 03:40 AM

"I know a contractor in Oregon who has been going down to New Orleans with a whole bunch of other contractors in a church group and fixing up peoples houses for them." - Dickie

I don't think this is going to solve the problem of poverty in America.

What needs to happen, Dickie, is that corporations need to start paying their fair share of taxes and those taxes need to go into social programs instead of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:52 AM

You can't make any generalization about all "contractors", Dickey... You have two basic models: Fat-cat corporate buildersw like Til Hazel in NoVa and small custom builders like me... And, yeah, just like everywhere else, the corporate guys ain't exactly my buddies... They cheat... The use their muscle to beat on the independents and the playing field isn't level in the building industry...

I'll give you an example... I Have had 3 exterior double door with transoms ordered from a certain building supply house in Harrisonburg now for over 2 months... When I call, I'm told that the "factory" got in a big order for 1100 doors from a corporate fat-cat... When I ask when the 1100 door order came in I get the "Well, ahhhh, geeeze, man, you know how it is, blah, blah, blah" BS...

See, "Boss Hog" ain't happy just throwing 'round his weight to rig the game with rules that hurt the poor but also the middle class...
This is the point I've made over and over... If the middle class is gettin' squeezed you can bet that the poor, whyo had a lot less in the way of resources, are gettin' a major ***trickle-down-squeeze***...

Now, you ask what I would do???

Well, first of all, a guarenteed "national minimum income" for anyone who wants to work that is higher than the poverty threshold, which, BTW, would be revisted based on real cost of living differences from one region to another... I would finance this by rollin' back the Bush tax cuts for the upper 1%, creating a value added tax for anything corporate America produces in foriegbn sweat-shops and close the $100B off-shore tax shelters that only the upper 1% benefit from...

That's just for starters...

Secondly, a publicly finaced ***single payer*** sliding scale national health insurance program similar to Medicaid paid for from income taxes, which would rise for everyone but not to the extent that would not reduce any families after-health-insurance net income that is less than $100,000 a year...

(Oh, but Bobert, then you are going to take capital away from the rich and then they won't have the $$$ to build factories to hire everyone else...)

BS, right now the only factories that are being built by "Boss Hog" are in Idia or Pakistan... They have no interst in investing in America other than to make junk loans to the working class... That isn't investment... That is usary... An immoral, to boot...

Gotta go fior now...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 11:53 AM

$19M Synsil factory being built in Cleburne NY

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Intel has announced plans to build a 300mm wafer fabrication facility, which is set to be completed in the second half of 2007. The US$3 billion project is set to be completed in the second half of 2007 and would be Intel's sixth 300mm facility. It would manufacture chips based on 45 nanometre process technology.

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WRIGHT TWP. – Bedding giant Sealy Corp. will hire 107 people at an average annual salary of $33,000 at its new factory in the Crestwood Industrial Park. The Archdale, N.C., company, the world's largest bedding manufacturer, is investing $30 million into the factory on Elmwood Road. The facility will make latex foam, a material used in specialty bedding products, and a foam-encased inner spring for the company's Stearns & Foster luxury brand. The company broke ground in April and expects the 210,000-square-foot facility to be operating in the first quarter of 2007. Sealy, which has 25 plants in North America, including two ...

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Building materials maker CertainTeed Corp., of Valley Forge, said it will construct a fiber cement manufacturing facility - the company's third, and largest - in Terre Haute, Ind. The new 300,000-square-foot factory will employ 100 when it is completed in the second half of 2007, and up to 145 when it reaches full capacity, the company said. CertainTeed expects to invest "upwards of $70-million" in the facility, Chris Altmansberger, vice president and general manager of the fiber cement division, said.

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Manco to build new factory April 17, 2000. The Avon, Ohio, duct tape giant recently announced plans to build a new 150,000-square-foot manufacturing plant in Oklahoma City.

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Mich. scores two new plants
Carmaker plans engine factory in Trenton along with plans for a new axle factory in Marysville. DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group, forging ahead with its turnaround plan, is expected to announce today that it will build a new plant in Trenton to manufacture the automaker's next generation of V-6 engines, code-named Phoenix

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Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. plans to invest about 830 million U.S. dollars to build an auto factory in Mississippi state and it will be the automaker's eighth vehicle assembly factory in North America.

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BASF said it plans to build a new resins plant in Wyandotte MI by the end of 2009.

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UPM Raflatac has announced its plan to build a new pressure sensitive labelstock factory in Dixon, IL, USA, 105 miles west of Chicago. The new factory ...

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March 2, 2007 SolarWorld to Build 500-MW Solar Factory in Oregon
Camarillo, California & Bonn, Germany SolarWorld AG is set to establish an integrated solar silicon wafer and solar cell production facility in Hillsboro, Oregon, that will become the largest solar factory in North America once the plant reaches its projected capacity of 500 megawatts (MW) by 2009.

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Swiss food giant Nestlé has announced plans to open a $359m factory and distribution centre in Indianapolis, to cater for rising demand for its ready-to-drink beverages. The 190 acre site, located 40 miles outside Indianapolis, will produce Nesquik Ready-to-Drink and Coffee-Mate Liquid products for sale throughout North America. Construction will begin later this year, with the completion date set for spring 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 12:35 PM

Bobert:

I didn't ask "Now, you ask what I would do???" I asked you to show me a working model or even something close to whay you say will work.

Looks to me like all those steps you proposed have ben tried and
failed.

I agree that the financial undustry takes advantage of the poor people. They would take advantage of anybody they can rich or poor but the poor are more suceptible and less secure. Teach them how to become more secure.

Instead of guranteeing a minimum income which takes away ones sense of achievement, Get on the financial institution's asses. Pass some laws limiting what they can charge to whom. Credit is a tool to financial sucess of you handle it right. Educate them on matters of credit cards and so forth. You want it so people don't have to learn anything. They never have to bear the consequences of bad decisions. They get by no matter what. What does that do for the level of education?

If you were ordering 1100 doors, how would do it? Would you tell the factory "don't hold up any small contractor's orders because of me?"

You ordered 3 door units. Maybe some poor shmuck ordered one and your order is over riding theirs. Would you be crapping on them?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:59 PM

Raising the minimum wage wouldn't take away anyone's sense of achievement. Nor would adequate childcare or interest free student loans (or grants to single moms).

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:51 PM

These things ***have not*** been tried, Dickey.... Or at least not in the good ol' US of A... What I have proposed ***will*** go a long ways toward elliminating pverty... What I have proposed is a public/private patrnership where small business's are crippled by having to do all the lifting and where workers will be subsidized to bring them and their families above the poverty line...

Tell me again just how what I have proposed has been tried before...

As for "Boss Hog" investing the dough that Bush gave him in new factories, sure, there is ***some*** domestic investment but not at the levels that is bringing the US economy back into a "ptoduction" economy... Jobs are being lost steadily in manufacturing... Finding a few new plants doesn't change that reality...

As for the door, I know the guy at the building supple joint purdy well... His brother is a neighbor... Ain't no mix up here... Just a good ol' fashion corporate screwin' of the independent builder... Happens all the time... Sub-contractors and suppliers serve "Boss Hog Builders, Inc." 1st!!! That, my friend, is another case of reality...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:53 PM

"(or grants to single moms). "

Not single dads, too?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM

Sure. I should have said single parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:12 PM

Dickey had you left out the bit on Nestlé building a $359 mill facility I wouldn't have bother to post again to this thread. But you did, so. Nestle has raped the women of Africa, it supplied free to hospitals fomular for babies & went on a scare campain to drive the women away from giving breast milk to their offspring therefore asuring themselves that the poor, undereducated new mothers would dry up of their on healty milk in lieu of having to but Nestles formular. Worst than a drug empire hooking new clients. That only begins to tell the Nestle story, that only begins to tell why they can afford to built a $359 million dollar facility, may thier facility burn to the ground before it's completed. OK, there you are 1 example of how corporate America benifits from the poor & uneducated classes. Does it say how Certainteed closed it's plants in the north, to move to a cheaper production local & how it now sells a new inferior product with a lifetime of half of what it says, they won't even put their specs on the label & I doubt that you'll find the on their web site eiter. Of course they can afford to build a plant. If some of these "Big" corps gave their employees their worth, made a product that was half as good as their foreign competitors paid a fair share of their taxes, stop recieving subsities (either by government handouts or by having the government penalize foreign competitors), then I would buy American. What they pay a CEO's & the upper top management is foul when compared to what they give to the lower tier employee. Can you say Enron Everywhere? Yes they do need to make a profit in order to survive but it seems to me that they're the one who are surviving well off, off the backs of those who end up dying at early ages or end up, if they're lucky, with a pension the may just be enough to get them by for the next 10yrs, when they have to go out & work just to cover their medical bills & perscriptions. You still just don't get it, do you! Ya, we can all work for shit & in the end eat it because we're left without the means to make ends MEAT. We can make billions for the top 5 or 10% or for that 1% & then go piss in an alley after 30 yrs on the night shift. The elderly are fast becoming the poorer class, this is not what the American dream promised them. So whose at fault & how to fix it? Tell the government that we will no longer fight their wars for profit, we want, for everyone, the same free heath & care benifits that every Washington politician recieves, after all we've been giving them a free ride long enough espically when you think of how they'll vote their own raises but not for the min. wage act, a right to a retirement that is in line with what profits they made for the corprate empire, a free & decent education for as long as needed, create legislation that keeps companies comitted to R&D, to keeping the buck at home, to start developing greener pastures & expand techology in what would be the front runner in the "GREEN INDUSTRIES". We don't need to go offshore or to outsource if the government & big industry didn't put the almighy dollar before the people. Take care of the people & the people will take care of rest, just allow them their fair share instead of raping them for all they're worth. It's not rocket science but then we keep elected idiots in office who've managed to fix it in such a way that we can't get any intellegence into the offices that aren't on some one's takeor owes someone for their position. An honest intellegent person without corrupted ties hasn't a snowballs chance in hell of being the type of people that we need to lead, they are smart enough to stay as far away from the that type of profession as possible & that's a shame for US all & that's why the poor will become a poorer & larger class with more of the working class following right behind them swelling their ranks.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:18 PM

I would have to strongly oppose letting boyfriends move in to subsidized or public housing, if that is what we were talking about, in order to help the mother. I am all for them helping, but there are so many problems caused by moochy men, to say nothing of abusive ones, to say nothing of ones who molest the daughters. If he is good enough to move in as a boyfriend, hold out for when he marries you. If he doesn't marry you, that is a pretty strong signal that he is not all that in to you...I am all for encouraging decent men moving in as husbands, but they should go through criminal and drug screening before being allowed in public housing. For those who can not find housing, as I have said before, we need spartan public dormitories, for various configurations of clients, for single men and women. They should not have to find a woman to mooch off of. Which is different than moving in to help the mother, but if they are not married and/or do not pass screenings, they can help in other ways, such as keeping a car going, providing transportation, taking the kids to the park for the afternoon etc. (well, pass screening for that). There is too much violence in public housing and there is too much molestation of girls and women and there have to be checks on this. I definitely do not approve of throwing perfectly good fathers and husbands out though. They should be rewarded for their contributions to the family, and if they are unable to contribute much financially, they are still totally valuable as parents etc....mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:45 PM

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:47 PM

So if a women is poor she's to stupid to make her own judgement call? We should put them all in seperate cell blocks? We should direct the direction of they're poor stupid life? What slippery slope do you live on? We should also include stupid single poor fathers too, from those women that live off them. Let's marry them all off to each other. Call it speed matching no need for the idiots to bother picking out their own spouses we'll do the picking for them & then place them where we want, maybe we can put them into a neat little sweat shop & futher take hold of how they live. You have no call or right to demand how one chooses to live but you can offer them a free education so they'll know better than just how to live with someone. Offer up some child care along with the education while giving them a check to get them by untill they're on their feet or do they need to have good working feet first?
Lay off with the stipulations & get on with more real assistance, like I said above, free health care, child care, free education, meaningfull job training/counsuling/placement. Give them more than a check, give them the farm & show them how to run it & then they'll produce!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 11:33 PM

Yeah Barry! When I was pregnant with my first child, yeah, these 25 years ago, it just never occurred to me not to breast feed her. I'm European and in the environment where I was raised, women nursed - end of discussion. I was far from the earth mother type (as far as you can get!!!!!) but messing with bottles never occurred to me. I shared a room in hospital with a young woman far younger than me -- I was 32 and she was about 19. Talk about women of Africa -- she thought breast feeding was disgusting, messy and inconvenient (that one I just could not understand.......) and cheerfully took shots to prevent her lactating.......I could have afforded formula at the time (just!) - she certainly could not. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE. My only caveat with what Barry says is - let's not use the word 'free'. It scares everyone.....the things we need to have are NATIONAL health care, NATIONAL child care, NATIONAL free education etc etc -- paid for by one and all from our taxes -- I would cheerfully pay. My younger daughter (21) called me the other day to say she has been doing wonderfully but she had a meltdown in large part due to the death of her ex boyfriend in Iraq (those interested see my thread -- Another Death in Iraq - but I knew this one.....'

She didn't know what to do because she is close to graduation from 2 year college and she knows her INSURANCE WILL RUN OUT SOON......I told her to call her counselor, and get back onto meds if she needed to - and we will sort out the bill. WHAT KIND OF A WORLD IS THIS.......????????

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 11:37 PM

I think the public has an absolute interest in maintaining safety for tenants of public housing, and yes, I think very many women, both poor, middle class, and rich, are extraordinarily stupid in their choices of men. If it only affected them, perhaps fine, although others should not have to subsidize them. But it affects their children if there is molestation, and there is, and I work with those girls and not with their mothers, but they have to take repsonsibility. IF they can't or won't, the public must. It also affects neighbors if there is public violence, drug behavior etc. It affects whether they can call a fire truck, or get a taxi to pick them up, or get groceries. Absolutely and positively I have no problem at all setting down and enforcing some very strict rules for damn near everyone, but especially those who are in public housing, both for their protection, and to lessen the burden on those making minimum wage and paying for them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 12:21 AM

Well, doesn't the public have a responsibility for maintaning the safety of everyone -- isn't that why we pay taxes (cheerfully so....) that support police, firefighters, etc etc, But as you say many women are singularly stupid in their choice of men (and of course, not to forget that many men are stupid in their choice of women)--what are you going to do? Run a prison camp? I know rich people who live disgusting lives and poor people who live wonderful lives that are a credit.......but isn't that part of what life is? We can't mandate behaviours or emotions......IF THERE WAS A DECENT SAFETY NETWORK in the cases where people (rich or poor) make bad choices there are some protections for those poor souls, usually children, injured in the blast.......

Many years ago, about 30 years now, I was divorced, and going to college here in the US planning to return to the UK once I had my degree. The college was paid for by a full scholarship for foreign students, which I technically was, -- but it was hard to make ends meet paying for the apartment and food. So for a while I was on foodstamps. Being European and used to a social services blanket I was appreciative but not ashamed. One night I was out with a date at the local food store buying food for a late night supper....he offered to pay and I said no, I have my food stamps. Someone reported me.....I was hauled in front of some local administrator and accused of abusing the system. J was just living MY life using MY food stamps in a way that was appropriate to ME -- they withdrew benefits which is just as well as I would have starved before I would have allowed someone to dictate how I spent my money......

It seems to me that you just can't go there....you hope for a degree of integrity from everyone but accept that - RICH AND POOR can screw up and be abusive sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 12:33 AM

Mg, I was one of those children of a poor stupid, undereducated, single mother that took on a stepdad. It probably was not much of a choice for her but she made a good choice. Those idiot mothers you're refering to were smart enough to survive under conditions that would make many well to do parents buckle under & give it up. You also don't subsidize them & molestation happens in the houses of the rich too & it happens just as much. You really have a wonderful view of humanity, where the poor are depraved & the well to do walk around with the rights of man. Don't tell them to take responsiblity, there's no one whom they can take it from & they do perform responsible just by the nature of their survival & by living, that's the point, they are the responsibility of us all but you would have that too taken from them as well as any diginity too. Don't blame them for the crime that happens in their poor neighborhoods either, that's as close to blaming the victim of a rape, they aren't committing any crime by being poor, though some may turn to crime in order to survive. If you want strict rules set them for yourself not for them, they were raised by the rules of survival & the street which were already imposed upon them by others just as you would impose more, why because it's a cost to you, you bare no burden for them except what you bare out of ignorance fosted on you by a government that would prefere that they could sweep them all under a rug while not needed or have them taken care of by some reglious org or some charity. We have police to protect all citizens though you think that they (the poor) recieve better survice? Thanks for caring about their minimum wage but your type of care they absolutly do not want nor need. You think it's just single mothers hat are poor too, get up on it the poor come in all sizes, shapes & colors & with & with out kids. You seeem to have no problems at all with the poor, set them up in a walled off getto, that'll do you for a good nights rest but when you wake they'll still be there poor, uneducated, sick, hungry & tired of your rules, walls & treatment. Wait until they come knocking on your door, will you feed them, cloth them, wash them? Or would you rather see a bit more of your war taxed moneys' go to helping them to escape that life for good & become productive. Because under what you'd prescribe they'll end up finishing out their lives in that same walled up getto.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 12:35 AM

a guarenteed "national minimum income" does not mean minimum wage. I am in favor of raising the minimum wage for citizens and legal aliens.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 12:41 AM

Congress is to after a 10 year wait & to many paid raises for themselves. So they'll get a pitence now.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 01:10 AM

No they would not end up their lives in a walled up ghetto. They would have been able to walk freely in and out of that ghetto, eventually moving out, because they would have been safe, which is the first rule of society. They would hopefully have not had a series of mother's creepy boyfriends in and out of their houses, crack houses next door, nasty teenagers scaring people into not using the elevators, which were also used as bathrooms, old ladies being afraid to leave their units to go grocery shopping etc. If you take care of the crime and violence, and part of that means providing separate housing for the more violent and abusive so they have a place to go, you automatically will make the experience of poverty more tolerable, because then poverty is a lack of goods, rather than a gauntlet that has to be run every day by the vulnerable. Goods can be provided. Resources will come into a place, jobs will come into a place where there is safety. It is a duty of government to provide it, and it is a duty of every citizen to accept it and not make conditions worse for others. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 01:18 AM

I don't mean to be discourteous but this does seem somewhat of an oversimplified view. It seems to me we have a chicken and egg dilemma here - how much of crime and violence comes out of the frustration of poverty. Believe me - I am not countenancing anti social behaviour (using lifts as bathrooms is revolting...... and inexcusable) but truly, there are wealthy people who behave in totally unacceptable antisocial ways too - it just receives less publicity.

Unless you have been poor, really poor, it is hard to understand the way society views you and the stigma it carries. It does not excuse poor behaviour but it somewhat (to me, at least) explains it...........

I cannot help but think a basic standard provided to everyone would help....

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 01:27 AM

Of course apply standards to everyone. And we leave out a step when we understand what causes people to tend to behave in certain ways..and that step is to be sympathetic, to provide barriers to that behavior, both cultural, physical like stoplights etc., and say, we understand why you want to beat your wife, but sorry, you can't. We leave out the step that says they can't do certain things because we think once we understand why they do certain things our job is finished. No, it is not. They still don't get to kick the dog. We can understand what makes them want to, but they don't get to. We can understand why they might want to use drugs, but they still don't get to. If they do, any temporary relief is offset by their lives being ruined, cops being killed, their neighbors living in fear etc. So no, you don't get to kick the dog. We understand that you are lonely and in dire financial straits, but no, you can not let this child molester in your home to rape your daughter. No.   mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 01:31 AM

I don't think we are too far apart. I absolutely agree that you cannot condone antisocial behaviour. BUT I don't think it hurts to have some understanding of where ant social behaviour might come from. And I believe certain levels of help and support will make it easier for those who tend towards antisocial behaviours not to follow that route.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 01:41 AM

Over 80% of U.S. Manufacturers' Investment
Takes Place Right Here in America?
Many individuals appear to believe that U.S. manufacturers are hurrying to shut factories in the United States in a "race to the bottom" to invest in low-wage countries.
But that is not what the facts show. The truth is that U.S. manufacturers invested about $170 billion in factories and equipment in the United States in 2005 (latest data) while their foreign direct investment outflows to the rest of the world were only $39 billion.
That means 82% was invested here in America. Moreover, this proportion hasn't really changed over the past decade.
And the vast bulk of foreign direct investment goes to high wage countries – 90% in fact. Fully 71% of U.S. manufacturers' foreign direct investment in 2005 went to high-wage Europe. What kind of a race to the bottom is that?
Moreover, Commerce Dept. data show that 90% of what U.S. multinationals produce overseas is consumed overseas – only 10% is shipped back to the United States.

http://www.nam.org/s_nam/bin.asp?CID=5&DID=238191&DOC=FILE.PDF

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 02:32 AM

mg - I wasn't talking about subsidized or public housing specifically but I really don't think you can tell a grown woman who she invites into her home or her bedroom. He may not have enough money to support a family but if he has enough money to support himself and provide some extras for the family, whats wrong with that? Besides that, she may not want to marry.

A woman should not be deprived of male companionship just because she's poor. Thats ridiculous. Not all men are pedophiles and rapists. Some of those men are actually very good step-fathers. You can't punish the poor for crimes they haven't committed just because you're suspicious.

...and Mary, I have worked in a group home with young children who have been apprehended by social services. Believe me; there are perverts in all social classes.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 02:50 AM

Amen!

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 03:19 AM

Mg, you must think that abuse & poverty are twins, they're not. Drug abuse & gambling, abusive drinking may have "some" roots in poverty but not spousal, phyical or mental abuse. That's a different horse & color, all classes suffer from that, the rich can get away with hiding it better that's all. Your hung up in the wrong places. Beating your wife, kicking the dog & raping you girlfriends daughter is not poverty driven. What a misconseption you have of the poor. Poverty breeds self abuse, sure enough & drug use to be sure & crime, yup but poverty does not breed sexual predators & spousal abuse, get a grip. You take hope & intellect away, we've been here before, & you get to a place where the community falls apart & fails, becomes dangerous, criminal & violent. Now put a wall around that & you've put us back into the dark ages. Again you set up a national education program where everybody can use it no matter your income, a health & welfare system that includes a free national health plan for any that can't afford it, you set up child care for those that can't afford it, then you can say that there's a start on the war on poverty, illiteracy & infant mortality, homelessness, crime, drug abuse. You set up a fair employment agency & a dept of labor that has not just the interests of business in mind but also the welfare of the work force then you can say that there's a war on poverty. You want gettos & you'll get more of the same only worst, you'll have a black market underground society that makes fiction look like a party.
Why the focus on boyfriends living with the poor girl? I think there are bigger issues than who chooses to shack up with who, again education is the first step in making good judgement calls, not some ban on what is a natural. Boyfriends, I can't believe that anyone would make that an issue. Is it ok for the rich girl or guy just cause she or he can afford to be the sugar daddy. Your standards are double standards, warped, selfish & not real. Why don't you declare saying no to sex altogether maybe that will prevent unwanted pregnancies in our youth, wait is that a poverty driven issue? Nope, that's an educational issue. That's like Reagan's war on drugs "just say no" or his fight against AIDS, "just say no". Education, education, education. The poor aren't stupid, undereducated maybe, lack the resources, yes, trying to hard in their struggle to survive most certinally. You don't want an excuse for poverty, neither do I, there really is no excuse for it in this country. We have some of the best educational facilities in the world and we're to stupid or selfish to allow those in need of them most the access to them. Well ignorance costs a hell of a lot more & most of the ignorance comes from those that would deny the poor the ability to get a head & rise beyond their stated place in life. Nothing like an education & a helping hand. Give me a fish today & I'll be hungry tomorrow, teach me how to fish & I'll never go hungry again, give me a dollar today & I'll be broke tomorrow, educate me & I'll never have to ask you again for a handout.

Then there's Dickey saying how great the business world is doing. I couldn't agree more, they're making profits hand over fist, they're investing like crazy but to who's benifit not the underclass that floats them with their sweat & their unfair tax breaks. Industry is doing just dandy while the little guys dying to keep the it in business. It's kind of like the company stores all over again. You work to produce a product you can't afford to buy yourself, you go into hock just to get by & then you can't even pay off the interest, you're owned by big government & big business. You try to attend a school "to learn to earn" & end up having to take a back seat on the bus ride home carrying an empty lunch pail.

Time for me to go have a nightmare, good night.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 03:27 AM

"right now the only factories that are being built by "Boss Hog" are in Idia or Pakistan"

12 new US factories was all I could fit on one screen. How many do you want Bobert? Do you want some built in countries other than India and Pakistan? How many do you want?

Where has the revolution you want done anything for the people? The only one I can think of that did any good was the American Revolutionary War / War of Independance which you are benefitting from right now but you don't appreciate it. You must have some huge shoulders to carry that chip on.

Portugal is by far the closest a country has come to actually having fully implemented such a system. This is because the Portuguese government made a guaranteed minimum income a legally enshrined right for the entire population in 1997. The policy remains at present. However, their income security policy is rather residualist, with an amount guaranteed well below the poverty line, and other income security policies such as the minimum wage are thus still in place as a consequence. The system also forces participants to attend social integration sessions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income

15% of adults and 19% of children live in poverty across the EU. There are, of course, significant differences between member states, with child poverty as low as six or seven per cent in Sweden and Finland, going up to 27% in Portugal and 26% in Ireland.
http://www.povertyalliance.org/html/publications/briefings/Briefing02-Europe.pdf


The U.S. State of Alaska has a system which guarantees each citizen a share of the state's oil revenues (see Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend). Those greedy oil companies strike again with a strangle hold on the poor folks.

Has Boss Hog Builders, Inc taken any work from you?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 03:35 AM

Ever hear of the military handing out no bid contracts?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 08:19 AM

Yo, Dickey...

I'm sure you could fill a couple screens with plants that have been built or updated... That is not at issue here... What is at issue is that the US economy is not creating manufacturing jobs at the rate to keep up with it's labor pool.... What that means is more unemplyement and, just as cruel, *under*employment.... Underemployment is a large factor in why kids in the inner city loose hope that finishing high school will make their lives any better... The jobs they can get with a high school diploma are about the same jobs they can get with an 8th grade education... This is a majoe piece of the puzzle...

No matter how many decent paying jobs the Dickey's of America ***think*** are being created, they arern't in comparision to the potential workforce...

That is why I support a ***guarenteed and subsidized national minimum income*** for anyone who wants to work... And an income that exceeds the poverty level... Then maybe we could start to talk about ***no*** subsidized housing and social workers being told to snoop on boyfriends... It's not American to be snooping into people personal lives...

But it's not just subsidized housing but Food Stamps and Medicare and, and, and the list goes on of programs that could be elliminated if every one who wanted to work was paid a ***living wage***...

The system we have now is very colonial and is based on the premise that folks can't be trusted to make correct decisions... Well, okay, I have argued that we need to restore programs but if folks knew they would paid a living wage then it is my porsition that these programs coule be phased out as people became ***empowered***... A guarenteed income for everyone who works will go along way toward that...

BTW, in my last post I left out an all im portent word in talking about small businesses and that is that a guarenteed income would ***help*** them as well as their workers...

BObert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 11:50 AM

Yo Bobert:

Eighty one percent of respondents to the Institute/NAM 2005 Skills Gap survey said they could not find qualified workers to fill open positions.

http://www.nam.org/s_nam/sec.asp?CID=201507&DID=229891&rcss=print

Note the word "qualified". They need educated workers with skills.
Manufacturing activity

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 08:14 PM

Of course these companies can't, Dickey... Can't you see that first of all "qualified" is a very subjective term and can't you see that with the wages these companies are willing to pay, they aren't going to change the paradyme???

If I could go to an 8th grade class in NE Washington as an empoloyer and say to the kids that if they would sign a contract to finish high school then I would hire them at a "livable wage and benefits" then I'd guarentee you that you'd seea major drop off in drop out rates... It has worked where the occasional rich guy has offered a certain graduating claass the same offer...

Boils down to opportuntiy... Like why put in the effort is yer goina' be flippin' burgers the rst of yer life...

Hey, kids will work if they see that they are workin' ***for something***... Think this goes back to Skinner's box... No reward, no learnin'... Garbage in, garbage out...

America has become the one western country that has lost sight that folks needs carrots... Not prisons...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 01:19 AM

Is "livable wage and benefits" a subjective term?

Bobert:

First you say there are no factories being built in the US So I prove that that is not true.

Then you say "That is not at issue here... What is at issue is that the US economy is not creating manufacturing jobs at the rate to keep up with it's labor pool."

So I prove thet there are unfilled manufacturing jobs and a chart that shows increased manufacturing activity.

Then you start blabbering about guaranteed minimum income again. That is in force in Portugal since 1997 and it don't work. It was tried in Canada ans the US and the programs were cancelled.
From 1974 to 1977, the residents of Dauphin participated in the only Canadian guaranteed annual income (GAI) experiment. The Mincome experiment, as it is known, was one of five projects developed to find out what would happen if people were promised a yearly minimum income. Would people still work?

The projects began during the 1970s when “history was changing in some fundamental ways,â€쳌 says Dr. Evelyn Forget, professor of Economics at the University of Manitoba. “People believed we were just a hair’s breath away from creating a just society.â€쳌

A hopeful young Premier of Manitoba, NDP leader Ed Schreyer, was interested in the concept of the GAI. He and the cabinet RED Committee, dedicated to social justice, secured the province as the Canadian test site. Similar experiments had been undertaken in the U.S. in New Jersey, rural areas of North Carolina and Iowa, Seattle and Denver, and Gary In as part of President Johnson’s “war on poverty.â€쳌
http://www.uniter.ca/view.php?aid=38460

"These things ***have not*** been tried, Dickey.... Or at least not in the good ol' US of A"

Looks to me like they *********have*********Bobert. You need a laxative.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 02:49 AM

"An overall guaranteed income program ... worthy of consideration (must) offers a substantial level of benefit to people who are normally in the labour market. Therefore, a great deal of further study and investigation, like the experiments now under way in New Jersey and Seattle in the United States, is needed to find out what effects such a program would have on people's motivation, on their incentives to work and save. Until these questions are answered, the fear of its impact on productivity will be the main deterrent to the introduction of a general overall guaranteed income plan. [2]"

http://www.geocities.com/ubinz/Canada/HumSimpson.html

You will find that this article concludes that a GAI has no negative effect on the incentive to find work.

"Moreover, while directly improving the standard of living of their target populations, they would do so while encouraging rather than dampening incentives to become more self-sufficient through earnings."

http://www.canadiansocialresearch.net/ssrgai.htm#Conclusion

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:41 AM

"The U.S. State of Alaska has a system which guarantees each citizen a share of the state's oil revenues (see Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend). Those greedy oil companies strike again with a strangle hold on the poor folks." Dickey

Trust me, Dickey- it wasn't the oil companies that set up the Alaska Permanent Fund dividend. It all happened under one governor. The premise is that since individuals don't own sub-service rights, all Alaskans share in a proportion of what is extracted.

By the way, you don't seem to realize how unpleasant you come across as being.