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BS: Poverty in the USA
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:05 PM Bobert: My question is simple. You say that poor people can't afford an average apartment. What does that mean in the context of this thread? What does it imply? It seeme to me you are trying to imply that it is some sort of problem for poor people. Why is it a problem when there are less expensive apartments? Are middle class people supposed to rent those cheaper apartments? Are the lower priced apartments supposed to go empty because poor people deserve to have an average priced apartment? They probably can't afford an average priced automobile either so should someone give them financial aid so they can afford one? I don't drive an average priced automobile and when I rented apartments I went to the lower priced ones and not the average priced ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:13 PM Hmmm - Good choice or poor choices? Seems a bit subjective to me. The oil furnace is a good example. As a kid, my family was up and down financially. During an up time (with the help of a GI bill and a job at the mill), my parents bought a very humble house and struggled to make the mortgage payments for the rest of their lives. Since both parents worked, I had to come home from school at 11 years old and start the furnace. I had to remove the grate from the floor, stand over it and drop a match down the hole. Everyday I thought I was going to explode. Did my parents make a good choice or a bad choice when they gave me this job? Another time I had to go into the crawl space under the house because my mom and dad couldn't fit. I had to replace something on the furnace (could it have been the pilot light?) and I had to scoot in on my back with a flashlight, a screwdriver and the part. My dad gave me instructions on his hands and knees talking into the crawl space and I got the job done in spite of the cobwebs and my fear. Good choice or bad choice on my parents part? Then there was the job of helping my dad shingle the roof... What I'm trying to say is that what may appear to be a poor choice is actually the only choice for some. Sometimes when you're struggling, you don't have a choice, you just have to do it and you do it with whatever resources you have. You just blink back the tears. I've worked in schools where the poverty rate was very, very high. If you want to survive, you check your psychology at the door because everyone knows that psychology was made for rich folks. It doesn't apply to the poor. Hats off to those who struggle and make it in spite of all the odds and hats off to those who have the compassion to help the others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:22 PM "If you want to survive, you check your psychology at the door because everyone knows that psychology was made for rich folks. It doesn't apply to the poor." Amen to that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:50 PM Dickey, Well, my friend, we are now down to arguing over how many angels can dance on the end of a pin... I just don't see where the questions you have asked are relevant to this discussion of any other discussion fir that matter... Fold live where they can afford... If you can afford a $1300 a month apartment yet choose to live in a $475 apartment in a neighborhood where you will be dodging bullets on a daily basis, fine... Move there... You mentioned the area in the Rock Creek area where there were $475 apartments... Please just ove there... If you are white and look middle class, you will be dead in matter of days... However, if you are a black woman makin' $8 an hour with 3 kids you might be able to live there without be killed but, then again, yer kids might not turn out too good... The only folks that live in these areas live there becuase of default and not choice... Many folks just need the assistence from family that live in those neighborhoods... I'm not too sure what choices you think that poor people have and I am kinda curious as to just what you thinbk poor people think about their world??? Do you have any idea??? This ain't about yer daddy sellin' apples during the depression... It's about a much different paradyme... And I'm guessing from the poasitions that you take on variuos issues that you don't have a clue what it is like to grow up in an impoversihed family... Yeah, you perhaps have learned enough from ***your*** eductaion and ***your*** experiences to make choices that would allow you to escape a temporary bout of poverty... I could as well... Most, if not everyone I know her in Mudcat could, too... But we're dealing with reality here... Not pure academics... Not preaching to folks who don't have our expiences to draw from... If we, as a nation, are going to ever win the so-called "war on poverty" it's going to take folks like you to make a fundamental shift in attitude toward facing reality... Reality is what social workers face every day of their working lives... You reality doesn't mean jack to someone who has grown up much differently... That is what I tried to explain to mg but I don't think she ever got it and accused me of being rude... No, I'm not being rude... I am being real... I have been in the trenches, have suffered from the dialy disapointments of seeing folks make what seems to middle class educated people, ahhhh, "bad choices" and from it all I learned that the only way I could be effective was to become more "clinet centered"... Yeah, I keep coming back to this concept of "client centered" and if we are ever going to make any progress we are going to have to accept,***** without judgement*****, where the folks we want to help are in their lives... And we are going to have to have the resources that we once had at our disposal to throw into the mix as we ***try*** to nudge and cajole and teach and nurture folks to make changes... ...and that ain't easy, Dickey... Take yourself, fir example.... You are a very dogmatic person who is highly resistent to make any changes... So are most poor people... But, and I will put this into the mix, Dickey, I will give you credit for hangin' in this discussion (even though most of of yer hangin' has been of the ahh-hah-gotcha-Bobert academic variety...) becuase it shows that you have at least some rudementary curiousity about this terrible American problem... Bobert p.s. Just needed to do that little bit of house cleaning... Maybe tomoorow night for the story I promised... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 04 Apr 07 - 08:25 PM Choice. Options. Without options there is no choice involved. Usually there are choices. Options. The internal and external determinants that govern the visibility of options, the reality of options and the nature of options is so complex that somebody could, and probably has, written a number of books about them. Learning takes practice. Lots of it. We definitely learn from the choices we make. Depending on the circumstances, the lessons we learn from our choices depend on the choices available. This includes both the number of options and the kinds of options. So much of learning is trial and error. Sometimes people have options that they don't recognize. Sometimes people don't have the experience or the knowledge to know how to evaluate options. Education plays a big role here. Both formal education, and the education of life experience. Notice I am not defining the curriculum or the quality of the education. Simply the process. Any observant person, any person with even a slight ability to self-reflect will confirm that experiencing the natural consequences of our actions teaches powerful lessons. The underlying assumption is there are different options between or among from which to experiment. The actual lessons learned depend largely, but not exclusively on three conditions: 1. What is the natural consequence of my first action; 2. How many other options are there and 3. What is the degree of distinction between the natural consequences that result from choosing the other options. Sometimes people don't have much in the way of options from which to choose. In a very real way, control the choices and you control the person. The most efficient and effective way to control a group of people is to control (limit) their options. Disney World and Wendy's does it with gates and switchbacks made of rope. Social Control is acheived by controlling options. The exercise of social control may be about protecting the people, protecting those exerting the control, or both. Often it is both. When both, the balance varies, but over a sustained period of time, the balance tends toward protection of the power of those in control. That is not to say it is clearly intentional or conscious. But it is a social reality. On a societal level, our social welfare institutions provide just enough protection to keep resistance to control manageable. The rest of the function serves to protect those in power. Institutions insure an underclass by limiting resources, and thereby limiting options. It is not transparent. The boundaries between the functions are very co-mingled. It is not either/or, black or white. It is not dichotomous. The extremely wealthy and powerful do not sit in their mansions, rubbing their hands together with an evil gleam in their eyes. The underclass is not filled to the brim with virtuous saints full of noble suffering. But it is real. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 04 Apr 07 - 08:37 PM Dang, Bobert and dianavan, I sit here laboring for 2 hours over precise language--should I emphasize this or emphasize that... how much detail here...should I let that point go for the sake of 'brevity', etc. etc., Finally hit 'submit' and see you two wonderfully articulate people have cut out all the bs and gone straight to the heart of the issue, in real words, and probably while you were eating popcorn with one hand or washing dishes. Jeez, Janie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 04 Apr 07 - 08:39 PM Not only that, Bobert up and got '400.' Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: mg Date: 04 Apr 07 - 08:44 PM I would have to say I am for social control, in situations such as described, where people are afraid to leave their houses, where they live in terror every minute of their lives. These things can be improved..yes they can. They are having talking telephone poles or something in England..just a story on them..and they tell people to please pick up their cans and put them in the trash. They have really reduced the amount of violence. I also think that when anyone enters public housing they have to offer in exchange some of their privacy...and should expect to have to go through checkpoints, videotaping in lobbies and elevators and varous forms of security. That to me is the only way things are going to change. If there are other ways that are working, then discontinue suggsetions like these..but the very fact that people know someone is watching what is going on will reduce the behavior. Oh dear we are trampling on their rights. Yes, we are. But we are helping to secure the rights of those who are preyed upon, and we are protecting our ownselves as well. The amount of violence in an area will determine how much surveillance is necessary..and if we all need it all the time then so be it to be fair to everyone. As for these neighborhoods with the $475 apartments and thugs terrorizing everyone...I would have so many cameras going all the time. Probably pipe in some polka music as well. They would become gardens of earthly delight. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 04 Apr 07 - 09:27 PM As Janie once said, mg, I don't know if I should strangle you or hug you... You seem so dog-goned determined to force safety and comfort on poor folks... Problem is that it's like a square peg and a round hole, especially given the meager resources available for the long forgotten "war on poverty"... It shouldn't come down to better law enforcement.... We're doing purdy good in that with the high percentage of folks who have come from poor families now incarcerated... No, what I have been trying to talk about, as well as d and Janie, is a basic paradyme shift toward solutions v. incarceration... Cameras, while maybe being of some value, isn't the answer... Programs & resources are... We used to have "midnight baasketball" leagues in DC an' the youngin' who would normally ahngin' ther streets would show up and play b-ball... The funds for thast program got cut off and now the kids who used to be in the gym at midnight are back on the streets... We used to have school breakfast programs that enticed kids to come to school so they would get at least one good mean a day and we cut the funds... Now these kids don't bother comin' to school anymore... That's what I've been talkin' about... You can't just wish poverty away and you can't magically implant middle class experiences onto people who are clueless and expect that they will get it... They won't... No, what it's goina' take a real commitment by our very wealthy nation to redistribute the wealth, thru money, theu programs, thru social workers, thru teachers, thru, thru, thru.... If we are not willing to make those changes we will continue to pay for our failures in incarcaretion ($42,000 per yer per inmate) and the knowledge that we had alternatives to letting the rich hoard all the riches... This is very much about revolution... The gap between the haves and have-nuthings has never been greater and it's time that we quit blaming the have-nuthings... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 04 Apr 07 - 09:43 PM Bobert: I referred to an area near Rock Creek Park like Connecticut Avenue just west of Rock Creek Park where they have doormen. You jump on my ass and say there are bullets flying there and I don't know anything about DC. You still have not explained what poor folks not being able to afford the average apartment means in the context of this thread. Evidently I have got you because you avoid answering and heap a bunch of names one me instead. You like to throw out these straw man statements and won't come back to defend them. Sure poor people are forced to live in crime ridden, pimp infested, drug saturated, gang menaced neighborhoods. But who are these criminals? Is it Exxon or rich folks that make these areas so dangerous? It is people who turn to a life of crime rather than take on the difficult task of working for a living. Kids join gangs for a feeling of family that they don't get at home. This creates a cycle of poverty. It makes me happy when I see a neighborhood banding together to fight crime. A group of citizens who realize that the Police cannot do it without the help and cooperation of the citizens. And then you see a kid wearing a no snitching T shirt, obviously for the sake of making a profit by selling a T shirt. Where are the parents of these kids? Don't they have a choice in what they allow their kids to do and what standards they set? These are the roots of poverty that need to be defined and addressed. People need to be educated and enabled to stand on their own two feet at an early age. They need parental guidance. Can the government legislate parental responsibility? Can big corporations and rich folks buy it for them? Street Code # 1 Never Snitch T-Shirt $16.99 Snitches Get Stiches $17.99 Bread Over Bitches Shirt $19.99 Bros Before Hoes $17.99 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 04 Apr 07 - 09:45 PM The only people with the power to change the lot of the poor are people with money. It ain't happenin'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 04 Apr 07 - 11:29 PM It ain't happenin' because the roots of poverty are not being addressed, only the symptoms. Why wait until a girl drops out of school and has three illegitimate kids by "men" that take off when the fun ends and the responsibility begins? Do you hear rich people telling them to get pregnant? Dp you hear Exxon telling that "man" to take off and get another one with no kids to bother with? Take drugs? Steal and murder? Do thay tell parents to neglect thier kids and treat them like they are unwanted? Throw someone else's money at the problem seems to be the consensus here. Why is the unemployment rate among the Asians 2.7 percent? Racisim and slavery does not have anything to do with it. It is their family culture and sense of responsibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 04 Apr 07 - 11:31 PM Who the fuck was talkin' to you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Richard Bridge Date: 05 Apr 07 - 03:16 AM The "I'm rich, so I'm entitled to to rob, but you're poor so you're not entitled to rob back, and anyway, fucking is much too good for the poor" mentality in some on this thread enrages me. Janie, your posts are excellent, for the most part. Dickey, if you think the Asian kids are innately or through social indoctrination diligent and law abiding, you simply have not done your homework. The UK experience is that the actual immigrant Asians were largely submissive, but there are large portions of second generation Asians in which the kids fight and fight back. Check out Nottingham, Sheffield, large chunks of West London. Plenty of rude Asian boys with microscopic phones and electric blue Scoobies. Your apparent assumption that there is something innately undisciplined immoral or inferior about the disproportionate numebr of blacks amongst the American poor seems openly racist, and your approval of your father's thefts in the depression while you condemn the claiming of welfare in the new depression created by the US neocons is at best hypocritical. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: George Papavgeris Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:41 AM "Can the government legislate parental responsibility? Can big corporations and rich folks buy it for them?". No. But one could argue that they bought it from them when both parents started having to go to work to make ends meet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 05 Apr 07 - 07:12 AM Well, some of us have the capacity and willingness to understand that society is organized around a social contract conditioned on not only interdependency, but also mutual responsibility. Some of us, while readily acknowledging that each of us is responsible for the effect of the choices we make in our own lives, understand and are just as willing to acknowledge that we are responsible for the effect of the choices we make on the lives of others. Those of us who choose to accept this, also understand that opportunity is not equal, that the playing field is not level, and that those of us who have more and better options, are only able to have that nice, big menu at the expense of others. Some of us believe that those who have power are morally responsible for the effects of the ways we exercise that power on other people. Some of us are willing to deal with complexity. Some of us are willing to acknowlege the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts. Some of us are willing to strive to base our opinions and beliefs on all available information. Some of us form our opinions and beliefs, lock on to any information that supports them, and then willfully and wantonly ignore or discount any information to the contrary. Some of us not only understand that resources are finite, we can also do basic math. We therefore understand that if the vast majority of resources are concentrated on one side of the equation, there will be vastly fewer resources on the other side. The side with the most resources has the most power. Has the most choices. Has the most responsibility to insure the terms of the social contract are kept. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Barry Finn Date: 05 Apr 07 - 09:53 AM The "WAR ON POVERTY" has been fought & was lost years ago. Most don't even remember fighting it. It came with a roar & a riot & went with a hand out & a wimper and it was a long time ago. Warning: Long story Sit down child & let me tell you how I lived through those wars. Yes, those wars there were others to, ya know. There was one on crime & another on drugs. There were a few, one on child illeracy & another against infant mortality. Anyway there were a lot of wars back then even ones about education, some times I still think that I see a spark of those days every once an' awhile but I just don't pay attention to that any more just an old man reflecting on his youth. Well where do I start, I guess it would've been sometime back in the 50's. The big war was over and I was just born, there was a new feeling that nothing was impossible, evil had been beaten & all was well with the world. Folks started having lots of kids, every one who wanted to work could, those that came home from the wars were looked after & looked up to & cared for too and when you got old the companies you worked for & the governemt that taxed you took care of you, you even had a chance of making it big time through business or politics and other ways too. Even those who didn't know much could do very well for themselves, it was a dream time. But not all did well, there were still pockets that got left behind, sort of left overs that were hidden from the light & joy. They were always there but they somehow survived & with all the handouts, the social programs & the other Sallys, churches & well to do, do gooders, they got by. Sure they didn't get the good jobs, some didn't even get jobs, maybe they weren't able to do them & sure they didn't get the education either but in the end they didn't die on the streets, they were looked after. Yes those were good times for the most part. I guess it was around the 60's, I was still just a boy but now I was in my teens & it seemd that the world was changing. Folks that had less were asking for more, an' getting it too. They wanted to be able to have a chance to feel as if they were equal to all the other folks that were doing well. They wanted to be treated better than servants or slaves or wanted to educated. Well if men can become schooled why can't we women do it too? Yes the world was going though alot of changes back then, mostly for the good too. But it was looking like there was a cost to it & a toll was to be taken too. It was an all about us, no a me kind of thing mind you but about us. Yup, about us we were the us'es. We were poor & uneducated but so was everyone around us. We didn't know that some folks lived differently, we didn't know that those big houses that we'd see on the TV belonged to real people & how they talked, very fancy & they seemed pretty smart an rich an powerful too. Yup, there were things we were learning about that we had never known about before. We were seeing things like live war and things like how the other side lived, and how the blacks in those other projects across the street lived. Funny they were living just like us and we never knew it. Funny what we leant back then. A lot of people were caring about each other, yes the people were seeing things they never saw before, almost like waking from a slow dream. That's when it started happening, they were beginning to see how some got more & how more got less & it was a bit confusing & a bit unnerving at the same time. The feelings that got to running around about this was off the charts too. Everybody started yelling & hoarding, gabbing & pulling for the things they never had but saw that they now wanted & thought that they should have too. And others thought that they should have & were entitled to itra too, after all they had it and didn't even have to work hard for it either, it was like it was gifts from their parents of from their parents society. Well, that's when it all started falling to shit, maybe some time around the 70's the programs & churches, the armies of Sally's & the social government programs they all started to fight back, in a knee jerk kind of way. Making things harder on the folks that they always helped in the past & started looking at the fund like they belonged to themselves or belonged elsewhere. Yup, they were redirecting, not only the money, funds & resources but they way they thought too. Gone was the helping hand & the eye on the down & outer. About the same time the available money's were starting to run low. The big backers of these programs started finding other uses for their funds & other reasons for the redirecting. So that's when the not so lucky started feeling the crunch. They were always uesd to being & getting by without before but now they had had a taste of what it was like not to go without for so long, they had tasted a good time for once in their lives, what it was like to taste the food off a better & bigger plate. Yes child, they had had a taste of education, knowledge & a taste of freedom & equality, of the pride of a staedy job, or at least they thought they saw what it was like. Before you know it parts of cities were burning up all over the nation, groups of radicals were marching all over the place, some yelled louder than others & others worked quitely & on the sly but they all saw what it was they were fighting about & for even if some of them didn't know quite what it was they knew it was right for them. Any way the fighting continued at home & sometimes over seas too. Government officials & politicians were all asking folks what was the reasoning behind all the fighting but most really knew the answer, the world was changing. Anyway, as the fights got fiercer the costs grew higher. Sure some battles were won & some were lost but mostly the money, the opportunities, choices, means, funds & the brains started to fade. And there were more people coming into the wars all the time too, some being born into them & some coming from other places where things were even worst. The more they fought the less there was to fight about. Less food, less freedom, less jobs. Some even cared less & others even knew less, it was like one step forward three steps back some times even six or seven steps back. So it was a time where folks became divided. Many were just having a hard time getting bye, some asked why the hell are they fighting & some even said what a nerve they had to go an fight & some could no long afford to fight and then some were just plain beaten so bad & so often taht they just fell where they stood & some just had to move on. They were starting to realize that they were back at the beginning but this time they knew that they had lost, they knew that all was for not & they knew what they were being left out of. They knew they were had. They knew that they had lost the wars. Sure some still had some fight left in them & sure some still wanted to help them but in the big scheme of things they lost. Actually they lost so bad and had fought so hard that there were attempts to make sure it never happened again. Those get ahead programs disappeared almost completely & it seemed like it was overnight too but it really took a little time. Those educational places of higher learning closed a lot of their doors, some forever, some are just beginning to open them again. The job markets started to dwindle, some of it even went overseas, some just started paying less in the form of money and benifits and no longer would they promise to keep you or care for you, even if you were getting older & better at your job. And the government they really let us know too, they really started taxing us and all for nothing too all the while giving most of it back to their friends that helped them during the war times, yes they made out very well, still do. Meanwhile the left over lost got to gamble more, that got legalized, funny, they're even draining the losers of that account and making a killing at it too & the drugs that started pouring in during the wars, well the folks that started on that road sure payed the way for a lot of others and they got less & less help as time pasted too and they were making a killing at this too. Funny how those folks made at killing every time there was dying to be done. Actually alot of the hospitals that used to help turned alot of folks that fought these wars away, some even closed & kicked many out on the streets. They even built more prisons, not just for the people that fought these wars but for those that got turned away from the hospitals & social programs & for a lot of the strugglers too, even made it into a big money making business, yup they sure figured it out, they came down to hard on us if you ask me. So there you go kid, most don't even know the story, some didn't even know there was a war going on & some didn't give a shit too, others, some others were making a bundle off of these wars & are still doing very well by keeping the legacy going today. So I want you to remember this, all of this & someday maybe you'll be able to tell it like it really was & how it was forgotten about and how they suffered like hell and still do. Ya know sometimes I almost get to thinking when I look at you & some others that I can see a little spark of those days in your eyes & it almost gets me to beliving that those battles may one day come again, of course with out all the suffering too, maybe a few are learning that it didn't have to be that way. Someday take a driveby where your old man grew up you'll still see loads of those lost ones (don't you ever go calling them losers either, they've earned their battle scars) sitting on the stoops & stairs tossing some dice or playing at cards with a bottle by their side or a needle stuck in their arm. Don't you ever go disgracing them, their dying so that some can go on living, I know it ain't right but it still is how it is. It's bedtime now, let's turn out the lights & go to sleep. Don't forget to pray, maybe you can pray for them, they earned your prayers an' pray that that you'll never become one of them & promise me that you'll go to college one day so that you never have to go hungry like my sister an brother & I did when I was your age. My brother, oh you never met my brother, he died during those wars but that's another story son. I'll tell you about how brave my brother was another night. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 05 Apr 07 - 10:02 AM Tryin' to explain poverty to some people is like tryin' to explain quantum physics to a dog. After a while it is just plain irritating! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 05 Apr 07 - 12:15 PM Mr Bridge: I have purposefully avoided refering to black people except in quotes from others. I have only named the Asian minority because they have the least precentage of poor people and amongst those poor, the best graduation rates etc. People try to immediately turn the economic and social issue of poverty into a racial and or class issue. A wedge issue to divide people into different groups that can gain power from the problem rather than fix it collectively. Straw man issues like "*The US governemnt soends $500,00 on 8 security screeners who speed execs from Wall Street helipad to American's JFK terminal..." when in fact a private security firm is doing the screening and every passenger pays a fee for screening are not useful in solving the problem of poverty. Anybody can use the helipad, not just Wall Street execs. Suppose I said "the US government spends $500,000 on 8 security screeners to speed movie stars from Manhattan to American's JFK terminal? Would that throw the blame for poverty on rich movie stars? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,mg Date: 05 Apr 07 - 03:13 PM Yes I would impose safety on people...darn tootin...and what would happen then? Children could go outside and play. Old women could go shopping. People could sit out in the sunshine and be healthier. Small businesses would come into the neighborhood...a grocer perhaps..and then trucks would go to the farms and bring in fresh vegetables...people would start to paint their houses or storefronts...people could hire taxis who would show up....people could become taxi drivers....there would probably be more bus traffic coming and going...there would be more bikers and shoppers coming into the neighborhood..the downside would be gentrification..and that is a problem...I sometimes think crime is a way of protecting property prices so people can afford to live there..but we have to break that anyway.....then you would have an ice cream truck that wasn't afraid to go there..then a little laundromat...then a used bookstore...things would escalate up instead of down. I would hesitate to provide too much comfort to single, working age, non-handicapped people. Basic shelter and hygeine, washing machines etc...but not too much comfort...spartan conditions but safe and clean. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 05 Apr 07 - 03:18 PM "I would hesitate to provide too much comfort to single, working age, non-handicapped people. Basic shelter and hygeine, washing machines etc...but not too much comfort...spartan conditions but safe and clean. mg " Sounds like the army. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Scoville Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:52 PM Sounds like the army. Or dorm life. Dorm life wasn't bad; I'd go back if I couldn't provide it for myself. Oh, wait--I can't right now. That's why I live at home and pay rent and housekeeping services to my parents. Seriously, though; I greatly exceed the national poverty guidelines but if I didn't have family here I'd be living in a very tiny place in a very scary part of town. Right now, I'll trade having any privacy or control over my living space for not having to worry about having my car stolen/stripped or being mugged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:55 PM I live in that part of town. It's different for guys, however. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 05 Apr 07 - 05:40 PM Well, first of all, thank you, Barry, for your most thourough telling of the story... Like yoy, many of us are of the same generation who purdy much see it the way you reported it... Yeah, in the words of Bruce Springtein, "Sooner or later it all comes down to money"... I think that is where we are with this discussion... It is about money and it is about power that money brings... But what it isn't about, which I believe that mg is missing, is that just ***giving*** money to poor people isn't what many of us are talking about... No one is suggesting that... But what it ***is*** about is funding priograms that empower people... That's what Barry was talking about... That's what d has been talking about... That's what Janie & I have been talking about... The war on poverty ***can not*** be won giving money to poor people... It cannot be won by ***ruling*** poor people with cameras... It cannot be won by providing ***spartan*** necessities... These are all ***colonial*** controls and not ways to what Janie called "leveling the playing field" by "options" for poor people... Poverty is very much a self perpetuating vicious cycle and unless the ***War on Poverty*** is cranked back up there will be no progress... And, Dickey, yes... It is very much a class struggle.... Very much... No, not a political one but very much a class struggle... Oh, BTW, Dickey.... With 7 years of college and 2 degrees, for the life of me, I can't figure out exactly what your question is that you are so sure the you have "got" me??? I mean, I pointed out that poor people have been priced out of $1300 amonth apartments in DC because, ahhhh, if they could afford $1300 a onth they wouldn't be porr people and yet you don't seem to get what I see is the ***answer*** that you say I have been avoiding... I'm not trying to avoid anything and I don't get you saying that I am and, to be honest, my friend, I don't think anyone in this thread understands how you make the statement that I, in any way, am avoiding answering your question... Maybe you heed to rephrase it 'cause until I understand what you are missing here there is nuthin' else I can say that will make you happy... So until you can put forth a better question that folks can understand, I don't care if you ask the same ***un-question*** a thousand more times I'm not going to respond to it... Einstien said that "insanity is repeating a behavior expecting different results" and that is about where I see your relentless attack on me for not answering your poorly worded question lays... Lastly, thanks again, Barry.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 05 Apr 07 - 07:14 PM Barry, You are such an eloquently expressive person. Your posts are as articulate and powerful as is your singing and your songwriting. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 05 Apr 07 - 07:29 PM Is Responsibility something you choose or something that just stands as true? It is something you choose. We can choose to take responsibility. We can help our clients to choose responsibility. Under law, sometimes responsibility is decided by others. Within ourselves we can look for the place where we had responsibility - whether it was as an individual or as a member of a society. When we allow situations that are not acceptable to continue - even when we are not directly involved, we share in the responsibility. Rita Carroll, Life Coach |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 05 Apr 07 - 07:31 PM We are always only responsible for our own actions, but our actions can cause ripples that deeply affect others. We are responsible for what we send out into the world and when we truly take responsibility for our words and actions we also take responsibility for considering how those actions may affect others. Rita Carroll, Life Coach |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 05 Apr 07 - 08:42 PM There was an essay printed in the January, 1969, "Playboy" by Dr, Martin Luther King entitled "The Testament of Hope""" I would certainly ***hope*** that every Dickey of the world would have to read this essay from front to finish but... ...in this essay Dr. King says some things that could very much describe where our country still is today: "If we look honestly at the realities of our national life, it is clear that we are not marching forward; we are groping and stumbling; we are divided and confused. Our moral values and our spiritual confidence sink, even as our material wealth ascends. In these trying circumsatnces, the black revolution is much more than a struggle for the rightd of Negroes. It is forcing America to face all its interrelated flaws- racism, poverty, militarism and materialism. It is exposing evils that are rooted deeply in the whole structure of our society. It reveals sustemic rather than superficial falws and suggests that radical reconstruction of society itself is the real issue to be faced." This, folks, is what many of us have been talkig about here... I've used the "r" (revolution) myself... Yes we will not become a just nation where everyone has the promised laid down in the preamble to the Constituion without a "revoltuion" of sorts... It is my hope that the rich will get it before it gets them... But there is no assurance as the rich historically haven't gotten it... No one here is asking foer the rich to give up there wealth but their stanglehold on wealth... Yeah, the Bushite richies, if this country is going to survive itself, will have to take a pay cut butm hey, they have been on the gravy tr4ain way too long and "For what?" I might ask... I mean, like these folks and their families have never had it so good but their spoils are at the expense of those at the bottom... This isn't rhetoric... It's reality... Dr. King saw it when the programs were being funded.... Now that the programs have been gutted or discontinued entirely the observations that Dr. King made 38 years ago look like the good old days and... that, my friends, is a sad commentary on the state of our country but worse... ...telegraphs the sadder state of our future nation... This ain't "Sky is falling stuff".... It is, however, the ticking time bomb that the ruling class continues to ignore... There will come a tipping point and when that occurs this nation is going to be in the biggest trouble it has been in since 1776... It will make the War for Southern Independence look like a picnic because it will be fought through out our country and rich people will have to retreat to their compounds like in Haiti... Yeah, this discusssion is about poverty in the wealthiest nation on earth but it is this divide between the haves and the have-nots that has the greatest potential to bring this nation down... Not the bin Ladens... Class warfare, Dickey??? It's not too far down the road and now that Boss Hog is Hell bent on screwing over the middle class, it is not too far-fetched... We have not moved since Dr. King's esay in 1969... Yeah, we did move a little forward and now we are in *full* retreat... Too bad that rich people don't study history... Voltaire observed that "those who don't know3 history tend to repeat it"... Guess the rich are too busy stealin' to learnt up on that ol' dusty stuff... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 05 Apr 07 - 09:45 PM As I go back and read posts, it seems to me that Dickey is the pretty much the only person posting who focuses on the responsibility of one group to the total exclusion of other groups. Give him two websites stock full of statistics, and complex analyses. He comes back with "Oh, look what I found! A table and an op-ed piece that agree with me." I don't know if that means he ignores all the rest, or if he simply considers it garbage and not worth considering. Dickey, all by himself, doesn't much matter. On this thread, Dickey is a stand-in, shining example of the myoptic sight, and unwillingness to really grapple internally or intellectually with the inherent paradox that comprises the relationship between the individual and the group, and that insures a significant minority in a society that has enough to go around will be poor, regardless of how much responsibility they might take for themselves. Root cause of poverty = lack of resources. Period. It doesn't matter where in the world or when in the world. It doesn't matter if it is only one person, one family, one community, one class, one nation or one continent. Poor = insufficient resources. If no resources are anywhere are to be found, no amount of education, job skills, personal or societal action or acceptance of responsibility will fix it for anybody. Things get complicated when resources and more than one person enter the picture. That is when power, values and personal choice come into play. I just had a windo pop up that the 'puter is having problems. I'll stop here and hope this post is not lost when I hit submit. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 05 Apr 07 - 11:10 PM Watch you don't hurt yourself or the computer screen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: mg Date: 05 Apr 07 - 11:45 PM Certainly true for some situations..not all...there can be poverty in the midst of resources and that is truly tragic. There are people poor right now who had resources in the form of public education and fought the people trying to literally force the resources on them. So you could look at it as a lack of the resource of a supportive peer group..at some point people are going to have to tackle that monumental problem..peers keeping each other down with harassment, brutality and great social pressure. That is one aspect of poverty that social pressure going the other way could eliminate. There are cultural pressures to dress a certain way that intimidates others..that will just about guarantee anyone will not get a job...and a job is a step out of poverty..maybe help is still needed... That doesn't mean that lack of resources is not a problem. It is. I don't think it is the only problem, or flooding people with resources like pouring molasses on pancakes is going to solve every problem. There are some social nuts that have to be cracked. There is a roadmap out of poverty for people who live in places where there are at least some resources..(for the able bodied, non-handicapped etc.. get a high school diploma, do not get pregnant or get someone pregnant and stay away from drugs and alcohol. Hopefully get additional community college training in a specific skill field.). .now if you are in Appalachia or way out in the Badlands somewhere...it will be far different. We are getting to the point though with Internet and FedEx etc. that an educated, sober, hardworking group of people will attract work to them..I am thinking of Navaho Indians who sew for NASA because of their sewing skills. One thing we do not do as a country is deliver resources anywhere with efficiency...there are clothes, building materials, surplus food...more sheep in Australia than they could afford the bullets to shoot at one time...we need to figure out ways to get the clothes to the flood victims or the chronically poor. Do more with surplus foods. One thing that is essentially here and that is there will be tremendous opportunities for people installing alternative energy systems..windmills, solar retrofitting etc. There are chronic medical needs to be filled. We should be training every prisoner in medical fields and construction fields right now. I am for spending money. Lots of it. Other peoples' money. I don't make a huge amount now but they can have more of mine. But I do not think that alone will solve the problems. It will for the 90 year old, incontinent, blind person in an inadequate nursing home. But other situations are going to require police force, cleaning out of the $475 month apartments that no one wants to live in, and changing the cry of hopelessness to one of hope and determination. Hopefully President Obama will rise to the occasion, as I think he will. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 06 Apr 07 - 01:58 AM Mary, You and I may not march to the cadence of the same drummer. Our points of view are very different in significant ways. But it is clear that you are as determined to be part of the solution as am I and some others posting to this thread. You put your money, time and talents where your mouth is. I want you to know how much I admore and respect that. All the best, Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 06 Apr 07 - 08:22 AM Ditto on both counts... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,mg Date: 06 Apr 07 - 12:57 PM oh thanks..mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 06 Apr 07 - 01:45 PM Just came across this; it's in the introduction to the autobiography Halfbreed, by Maria Campbell: I am not bitter. I have passed that stage. I only want to say: this is what it is like; this is what it is still like. I know that poverty is not ours alone. Your people have it too, but in those earlier days you at least had dreams, you had a tomorrow. My parents and I never shared any aspirations for the future. Note she says, "in the early days" ... In her adult life, she saw the poor white people who had lived around her starting to slide into hopelessness. (She would be in her seventies now, I think). Another good book about growing up in poverty is All Over But the Shoutin' by Rick Bragg. Much insight into how poverty affects outlook and behaviour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 06 Apr 07 - 01:55 PM People who think that poor people have brought it on themselves or 'deserve what they get' will never read those books. "The City of Joy" by Dominique Lapierre. Worth reading. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 06 Apr 07 - 02:42 PM I conclude that Janie is saying that family values have nothing to do with poverty. The key to success for poor people is being withheld from them by the rich. Attasntion poor people: It is not your fault that you are poor. It is the fault of the rich people. You will always be poor because of the rich people. Forget trying to get ahead, it won't happen, can't happen |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 06 Apr 07 - 02:46 PM As I said . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 06 Apr 07 - 02:53 PM Attention poor folks: Don't pay any attention to Obama, Oprah, Cosby or Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson telling you you can succeed, They don't know what they are talking about. You need people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Bobert and Janie to take care of you. We will fight the rich folks for you down in the trenches so you can continue to have illegitimate kids, no education and still have everything middle class people have. No self improvement is necessary on your part. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 06 Apr 07 - 03:00 PM like you said |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,Janie Date: 06 Apr 07 - 03:24 PM Well, Peace, I suppose there is some small, though sad comfort to be had that our observations have been validated....and by the subject of those observations himself:^) Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 06 Apr 07 - 03:41 PM Bobert: Who has a "stanglehold on wealth"? That is another one of your straw man issues. Why do you say "We used to have school breakfast programs" when they have never been stopped? Is this question to hard for you to understand? I have asked you several times. During the first year of operation, the SBP served about 80,000 children at a federal cost of $573,000. For Fiscal Year 2005, the School Breakfast Program cost $1.92 billion, up from $1.77 billion in Fiscal Year 2004. The cost in previous years: 1970: cost of $ 10.8 million: 1975: cost of $ 86.1 million; 1980: cost of $287.8 million; 1985: cost of $379.3 million; 1990: cost of $ 599.1 million; 1995: cost of $1.04 billion; 2000: cost of $1.39 billion. http://www.fns.usda.gov/cnd/breakfast/AboutBFast/SBPFactSheet.pdf COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION P.O. BOX 2120 RICHMOND, VIRGINIA 23218-2120 SUPTS. MEMO NO. 43 September 29, 2006 ADMINISTRATIVE TO: Division Superintendents FROM: Billy K. Cannaday, Jr. Superintendent of Public Instruction SUBJECT: School Breakfast Program - State Funding Incentive Payment for Increased Student Participation 2005-2006 The General Assembly provided $892,020 per year in fiscal years 2007 and 2008 to continue state funding for the school breakfast program as an incentive to improve the level of student participation. This incentive funding is available to any school division that increases its breakfast participation above the baseline established in school year 2003-2004 (base year). Each school division's baseline is unique to its base year breakfast participation. The level of funding is $0.20 per meal served above the baseline number of meals served per student for each division. http://www.doe.virginia.gov/VDOE/suptsmemos/2006/adm043.html The two said Newark schools deserve praise for making sure all schoolchildren eat breakfast. The goal of the project is to educate parents, teachers, administrators and students about the importance of breakfast and the options available for schoolchildren to receive breakfast in school. "A good breakfast gives you a good start to the morning, and you respond better to teachers," said Dole, the former Kansas senator. "You can't run a car without gasoline, and you can't run a body without some food." Dole, the Republican nominee in 1996, admitted the young audience probably didn't know who he or McGovern was. "I know you young children are really excited to see me and Senator McGovern," he teased. He said a lack of interest in school breakfast programs is unfortunate because there is public money available to pay for it -- about $500 million. In fact, millions of children in need do not get breakfast at school, even though they are eligible to receive it, Dole said. Out of 55 million children who attend public school in the United States, 29 million participate in the National School Lunch Program, yet only 9 million eat breakfast at school. These children are entitled to breakfast through the "School Breakfast Program." Newark should be lauded for its efforts, they said. "This city may have the strongest school breakfast program of any city in the nation," said McGovern, the former senator from South Dakota who ran for president in 1972. "We decided to come here and take a look at the program." The two former senators were invited to the school by East Side Entrees, a New York-based company that supplies food products to schools. The company launched "Breakfast Breaks," a kid-friendly "grab and go" breakfast in a box that, when served with milk, meets all of the USDA guidelines for a healthy breakfast. Gary Davis, company CEO, said he asked the two senators to head the program because of their past roles as leaders on issues of nutrition, health and hunger in America. Davis said so far, 160 school districts have signed on to the program, and that his group would like to use Newark as a blueprint. As senators, Dole and McGovern's work has helped form nutrition policy in America, he said. For one, they teamed to lead the fight for the International School Lunch program, also known as the McGovern-Dole Global School Feeding Initiative. Dole was a leading sponsor of the Women, Infants and Children (WIC) program, the reformed food stamp program, and the expansion in the 1970s of the school lunch-breakfast program. McGovern helped found the U.N. World Food Program and chaired the Select Committee on Nutrition and led the effort to reform the food stamp program and expand school lunch and breakfast programs. At the event, two Newark school officials -- Valerie Wilson, assistant school business administrator, and Tonya Riggins, director of Food and Nutrition Services -- were honored for expanding the school breakfast program. Wilson said that the district has traditionally offered a breakfast program, but that last year, it decided to expand it. In the past, breakfast was offered only prior to the start of classes, but now students can also eat during the first 10 minutes of class while the teacher takes attendance. "Teachers have said that children are quieter and there are less sick calls," Wilson said, referring to the benefits of breakfast. Each winner will be featured on a fall 2006 edition of the "got breakfast" poster, to be displayed in schools in their area. McGovern said eating breakfast is the best way to start the day. "It's hard to be quiet and to learn when your stomach is growling," he said. http://www.alliancetoendhunger.org/articles/2006/star-ledger_mar_8.htm Attention poor kids: Even though the FDA spent $1.92 billion on school breakfast programs, Bobert says you needn't bother going to school because the breakfast program has ended. Boss Hogg did it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 06 Apr 07 - 03:53 PM "The key to success for poor people is being withheld from them by the rich." - Dickey's twisted interpretation. No, Dickey, you have it wrong. The key to success is internal motivation which is fed by hopes and dreams. If you take away hopes and dreams, you are only motivated by external rewards and you dwell in poverty. The govt. can do alot more than its doing. It can redistribute the wealth so that tax breaks and shelters are not given to the wealthiest segment of society. The govt. can also provide programs that give the poor hope. That doesn't mean hand-outs and it doesn't mean fuelling the belief that God will reward the righteous and punish sinners. But most of all - The govt., the middle classes and the rich have to stop blaming the poor for being poor. Its people like you, Dickie, who are so afraid of losing your middle class status that look at the poor as a threat or some kind of disease, who do the most harm. You are bound and determined to keep them down for your own sake. You need someone to look down upon so you can feel superior. By doing so, you reveal yourself to be an insignificant piece of trash with no human compassion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Barry Finn Date: 06 Apr 07 - 05:03 PM Dickey, you gotta be built like a brick shit house, cause man you are thick. That's not what Bobert or Janie or dianavan was saying. Man, what's it take to get through to you? Read slowly what dianavan just posted. No one has said anything about handouts. Read again Inside the ghettos dwells the greatest of crimes Where kids with no hope are serving their time (KIDS WITH NO HOPE) Where they're shocked into feeling that life has no price (FAMILY VALUES) They live and they die no tomorrow (LIFE BECOMES WORTHLESS) With no higher learning, no place they can turn They see daily the wealth from crime they can earn They're under the gun every time that they turn And we ask why they have no values (YOU ASKED ABOUT FAMILY VALUES) Their language is foreign, their culture is strange There's slight chance for survival outside of a gang To get life from drugs beats the pain of no change There's no light at the end of their tunnel (AGAIN, NO HOPE) There's abuse of all kinds that runs rampage with rage (A SELF FEEDING NEVER ENDING CYCLE) And the cycle runs deeper with each passing age Until lock them away is all we can say They've been locked away all of their young lives (LOCKED INTO POVERTY) We'll draw cheap labor from them that'll slave And watch while we help the rest into the grave Keep them from good health, good schools and good wage And HOPE that there isn't a backlash So now let us finish and shake hands with our fate And don't be surprised when you're a victim of hate What they've been robbed of, to you they'll relate (YES< ROBBED OF) You'll be hunted as prey by your victim It's all there Dickey. In studies of the slave rebellions during slavery times it was found & known that if you leave a flicker of hope for a slave they will not revolt they will grasp for the hope. It's only when hope is gone that they will rise up & rebell, they no longer have anything to lose. That's the same life that one lives when in constant povert, there's a flicker of hope. Then it gets quashed and you have pretty much lost that person. Like depression, they lie in bed & can no longer function like you or I. You think it's easy to wake up & live when your living like that, like I said you fight every day, you fight for survival, you fight just to keep breathing, you fight to stay healthy, you fight to learn. Many, many just can't keep fighting for that long. They just die by the wayside. They get lost in drugs & booze or gambling or just become lost on the street. Send them to school to be fed? That gets them by for a couple hours & then they're gonna need something else, because their worrying & wondering where am I gonna get my next survival need filled. What planet are you from? You pull these stats off the internet, you might as well pull a rabbit out of you ass for all that's worth. You haven't a clue as to what your spouting off about. You think that some offer of a decent meal & a trip to some unversity & a cheap room will do the trick. Your as far out in left field as you can get. Go home try & raise some goldfish or get a puppy from the animal shelter, go do some good where you won't be in the way. We had a saying as kids, "you can take the boy out of the getto but you can't take the getto out of the boy". My step father finally moved us from the housing projects when I was about 15, I was already drinking & using hard drugs. I went to sleep to the sounds of gunfire at least once a week, today it's evry other night. In the suburban high school I went to I fough at least once a week for nearly the 1st year because I was different, poor, didn't dress like them, didn't talk like them even though we were probably only 5 miles from where I had come from. I came from a school of hard knocks, I stayed back that 1st year because I had no idea of what they were teaching. I wanted to go back to where I came from, back to people that understood me, back to where I was good at what I did & excepted, back to the shit pile & the hell hole. But luckily we couldn't go back & I just kept fighting every day. No one bothered me after a while because I had no values, I was close to being lost myself, didn't much care about anything. It was easy for me to wack someone with a board or a pipe. These middle class kids were easy pickings. I did try to push my way into college, I couldn't get excepted, until finaly I made it into night school. I had to work to survive that always comes first. I couldn't pull it off. I just couldn't afford the books. Well I did fight & I did survive & I did pull myself away from the poverty, but I left behind every one I ever knew that I knew as a kid. I know of no one from those days that made it out. I do know that many of them are dead. You think that things have changed that much since, NOT, they've gotten worst. There are more people living without that hope now than back then (50's & 60's & some of the 70's). There's less of all of what Janie & Bobert were talking about today. I see it, I know it, it's in the news every night, I remember it & it's uglier today than it was back then. Dianavan just put it in a nut shell. If you want to go look at a breakfast program in the works visit a "Head Start" program & ask the teachers how's it going, ask them when they last saw a raise in their funding, ya they still feed them & they do try to do the best they can but ask them how's it going & you won't post another stat again. You'd be better off just not thinking about poverty anymore. What's in your wallet, HaHa. Now that that's off my chest Sorry that I felt like being so direct & blunt but I got tired of reading some of your trash. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 06 Apr 07 - 07:00 PM Very well stated, Barry... Yo, Dickey.... Nice try, pal... You keep thinking that yer gonna suck me into a **stats game***... That ain't gonna happen... I mean, you'd have to have a team of attornies to cut thru the cooking of books when it comes to the lack of transparancy in Bush's budgets... There are more twists and turn and smoke and mirrors in them to fill up a tanker vessel... Bottom line, the breakfast programs have been cut by Bush but some states and localities have chipped in to make up the cuts... So, if we are going to look at the ***big picture*** rather than zero in on one locality or state, we have fewer federal dollars going into that program... But, I know that you love to divert a converstaion toward the realities that are being discussed... Have at it... BTW, if you want to argue with anyone take on OMBWatch.com... But please accept the reality that folks here ain't like friggin' lightweights and you ain't the big fish in the small pond... We see thru yer games... ...so get off yer stats and join in of the meat & taters of the discusssion 'cause stats, when used repeatedly as a debating trick, are bogus... Like I said, you wanta argue questionable smoke and mirror cooked booked stats, find another thread where folks is dumb enough to fall for yer usual crap... Bottom line, and you can't prove me wrong with any ***reliable*** source, regardless of throwing in various local or state data is that the US governemnt has been cutting back on breakfast programs for some time now... That is the relavent part of the discussion... Not playing apples and oranges against one another... Like I said, go to OMBWatch and do a little reading as to just what trickery is being used to hide the fact that Bush has been cutting into this program... Ohters, Be back later... But maybe tomorrow... This has been one diffiuclt week of work and I'm beat and need some rest.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 06 Apr 07 - 07:34 PM Dickey isn't gonna see anything that Dickey doesn't want to see. And what Dickey most doesn't want to see is himself. Dickey wants to play the blame game but Dickey doesn't want to own it. So he projects it. Dickey is a cruel, antisocial, selfish, socially irresponsible menace to society. His chices and actions in the world lead to death, unnecessary suffering, and the maiming of the hopes and psyches of millions of people the world over. He has a lot in common with those gang members that get interviewed on TV. They care about nothing but their own group and power. At least they are honest about it. You are spot on, dianavan. He is trash. Janie Be careful, Dickey. The natural consequences of your choices just might catch up with you one day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Wordsmith Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:20 AM Yeow! It's getting to be a minefield in here. Nice visual, Peace. A picture is worth a thousand.... Well, I came to ask a few questions. One is: Is there a rulebook for welfare recipients? Second one is: Are welfare recipients still allowed to have a funeral fund or whatever it's called? The next is: Is there still a cap on how much a welfare or SSI recipient allowed to have in a savings account? The reason I ask the last two questions is because, in perfect harmony with the topic of this thread, The New York Times Magazine last Sunday had an article entitled (I thought condescendingly:) Can Poor People Be Taught to Save? For two nights, I've tried to access the text through various programs on my computer after having scanned in the article. I even uploaded it to a website I frequent and tried several different ways to copy it so I could paste it into this thread. I even converted it into a PDF file thinking I could copy it that way. Well, I finally got so frustrated, I gave up, esp. after the realization that I could've typed the darn thing into a Wordpad file and been done with it. I haven't got time this weekend, but I will try again next week, but I think the answer to my questions will decide the legitimacy of the article's main points. So, I await your helpful answers. BTW, if someone can tell me what I did wrong with the procedure, I will not feel bad. I leave you with the words of Mohandas Gandhi: Poverty is the worst form of violence. Happy Easter! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:29 AM Wordsmith, here's a link to the article. Article. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:42 AM Dianavan: I agree with your "The key to success is internal motivation which is fed by hopes and dreams." statement. If that is the key then it is a lack of internal motivation which is fed by hopes and dreams that is the cause of poverty. Janie says it is a lack of resources and Bobert says it is Boss Hogg and ricjh folks whith their "stanglehold". Your statement "If you take away hopes and dreams, you are only motivated by external rewards and you dwell in poverty." Is very true but what I see out of Janie and Bobert is that they cannot suceed no matter what because Boss Hogg, Rich people etc are working against them. Bobert: "cause stats, when used repeatedly as a debating trick, are bogus" Is that why you brought stats into this thread? The reports I poseted were from the FDA and the school breakfast and lunch program funding has been increased avery year. If any of you do not agree with my interpretation of the message Bobert and Janie are sending to the poor, Let me know what their true message is. Mr Barry: "ask the teachers how's it going," Yes I did ask a teacher and she said they serve free breakfasts and lunches at her school for the poor kids. I asked a parent in another very poor state and she said they serve free breakfast and lunch at her son's school. Who did you ask? When did Bobert or Janie ask anybody about it? What I have been trying to say here is poor people need "internal motivation which is fed by hopes and dreams." to emerge from poverty. Without that all the resources in the world wont cure the problem. It may treat the symptoms but it does not reduce poverty. By treating them like a bunch of poor helpless critters you increase their dependancy on welfare. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Barry Finn Date: 07 Apr 07 - 09:13 AM Dickey, my wife has been involved with early education all her life. She's run & directed non profit & now for profit programs. Bush's pet program is Head Start & he capped funding maybe 4 yrs ago. What that means is that they didn't get a decrease in money but the line item was limited. Therefore no rise in prices, wages, facilitiaties upkeep & maintenance, food increases & an increase in children will be met. The kids lose. Getting to the kids at pre school age is paramount. And as far as the food it takes a hit even though as much as one would want it to be the last item to suffer it does. So I don't need to ask them, I hear it from her, her workmates at social gathering where she talks shop with other professionals in the industry at family get togethers, she is one of six siblings all are somehow involved with the poor (her brother works as a Gov. advocate for the poor his wife is a minister, 1 sister works for the UN helping to head up it's AIDS program in Africa, 1 sister works as an attorney for battered women's shelters 1 sister also works in early education & 1 sister is a teacher (25yrs) in the Mission District of San Francisco) so who do I need to ask? It not just what Dianavan says either, it's not that easy to say it's one problem, it's a multi facet problem of what Janie & Bobert are saying too & more. There is no pride in being poor, it is not a badge to be worn lightly but non the less it is worn & seen & in this nation they are treated as 3 world, 4th class citizens, they are ashamed, taken advantage of, humiliated, preyed upon by the government, finical & educational instutions, hospitals, courts of law, free markets, the housing industries & the list goes on. One topic that hasn't been much talked about here is perception of the poor & the attitude of the general public's view of them & their own attitude & view of themselves, that also plays a part in why the poor stay poor. All this also needs attention if the "war on poverty" is even gonna be considered, which in my opinion hasn't even been given lip service never mind considered. Barry |
