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BS: Militant atheism has become a religion
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jun 13 - 07:06 PM Hopefully Steve will have hid our Kielder Water scrolls for future confusion by the time I return. I'm having them put through an authentic ageing process (smear the edges with milk and put under hot grill for a minute), badly translated and selectively edited. Remaining inconsistencies won't be a problem: I'm working on a special text which I'm calling "Ballightology" which will use tortuous and dense obfuscation to "explain" them away. My first job is to decide whether "Ballightology" should have a triple l. Following that, the scrolls will be concealed in a cist on a hillside somewhere in a Catholic country in an area populated by many simple child peasants, some of whom will be led to "discover" them by guiding flashes of ball lightning (technical difficulties in the production of same will be easily circumvented in the first instance by the use of Roman Candles gleaned from boxes of Standard Fireworks, but I'm working on it). Why Catholic child peasants, you may ask? Well, they are as likely as any to have been instructed to be gullible, and there won't be much difficulty in threatening them to accept whatever the scrolls dictate, thereby causing trouble with their mums and dads and creating the germ of a major schism. Now all I have to do is determine the content of the scrolls, written in a tongue that is part menacing, part indecipherable. I need someone who can write in strong Geordie... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:51 PM Hey Joe! I posted the last one before your postscript appeared. You can join us, although I respect that you might not. Here in The UK, Catholics can't be freemasons for instance. Not knowing much about either, despite knowing quite a few of both, I rely on experts. Off on my hols in the morning. Hopefully Steve will have hid our Kielder Water scrolls for future confusion by the time I return. I hope to reccie the local brewery whilst there. It could become our Canterbury. Although Mrs Musket hopes I catch up on a few novels and take the dog for long walks. Bed now. Long drive in the morning. Tiring stuff, starting a religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,musket sans millenium Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:29 PM I didn't acknowledge the previous post being the thousandth post to this thread. 1. False idolatry is not in our draft constitution. 2. Seaman Stains may get a stiffy from being so bloody important that his op gets a thousand posts. But there again, the op is based on a false premise, which fits in well with a thread about religion. .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans grammar Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:19 PM Much obliged M'Learned friend. However, I was paraphrasing a quote by Mr Hitchens.... hence the use of the Victoriana he loved to use. So, my salty friend. Having an ego makes you religious eh? That answers a few questions. Anyway, we had an inaugural meeting earlier and item 6 on the agenda. You are blackballed for starters. Damaged goods and all that. Our acolytes cannot have predetermined delusions you see. pete. Don't wish to give you too much credence, (you are subject to the black ball order too) but you are right on two counts. Bill Shankly said it, but that is Steve's area of expertise. Your observation of the religious aspect of supporting your team has been well documented on this thread. Granted, mainly by me. Don't forget. Bingo Tuesday nights. Wednesday nights we discuss why other religions are a danger to society. Fridays we arrange demonstrations outside gay households. Women are more than welcome to all our services. After all, we need people to make the teas and wash up afterwards.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:05 PM Musket, we need a victim. I have wood and nails. See if you can get Wacko for us, would you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jun 13 - 05:03 PM You are under so many wrong impressions, old chap. Including that quote. Now I've accused you many times of being the laziest bugger on this forum and you've just proved it to us again. Now go and be a good boy, do ten seconds' googling and find out what that quote really said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 23 Jun 13 - 03:18 PM i was under the impression that football was already a religious observance. who was it credited with declaring- "football is,nt a matter of life and death - it,s much more important than that" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Jun 13 - 01:22 PM "henceforth you cannot dismiss Steve Shaw and I as being mere atheists" ><<><> ME |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Jun 13 - 01:18 PM "henceforth you cannot dismiss Steve Shaw and I as being mere atheists" Henceforth? We always thought of two as religionists considering your egos, setting yourselves us as deities seems not out of character. Thank you for once again reinforcing the thread title. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Musket Date: 23 Jun 13 - 09:19 AM Don, can we interest you in joining? If you could be so kind as to fill in the details for gift aid too, your subscription will help the cause that bit more... To everybody else, you realise of course that henceforth you cannot dismiss Steve Shaw and I as being mere atheists......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 23 Jun 13 - 08:35 AM ""musket- the similarities between pagan myths and the Jesus story are grossly exagerated and only seem valid by pulling bits out of the whole"" So cherry picking is only valid for fundamental Creationists? What was left out of the bible, would considerably alter that inerrant word. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 23 Jun 13 - 08:29 AM ""So perhaps our treasured atheists can tell us exactly why they are atheists, rather than skeptics."" They are Atheists because that is what the religious decided to call them. If you believe that Atheists invented the term as a badge of office, you are way off beam. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans revelations Date: 23 Jun 13 - 03:00 AM The doubting Thomas bit is already covered. Your Liverpool stance denies the true path, but I digress. We can have our miracles from a pool of supernatural characters we share in vision. I will write the gospel of David Hirst, Chris Waddle, Trevor Francis and from the Old Testament, David Ford and Don Megson (who sent his only son Gary down three times.)I thought your miracles would be from the times of the prophets, Shankley and Paisley. After all, done nowt since... We have of course the odd joint angel to offer the masses, the goalie Bob Bolder for instance. I like the idea of breweries for our cathedrals. They give us an equivalent of the blood of Christ and most have visitors shops so tins of shortbread biscuits make great wafers. By (genuine real) coincidence I have rented a cottage in Southwold from Monday for a few days holiday, round the corner from Adnams brewery. I might just be tempted to suss it out and claim it for the faithful. The charitable status will be a Claptonsend. We can hoard valuable paintings and not pay tax, just like real religions. The suckers we can teach to be our priests tend to work for a low stipendiary too, although they expect fringe benefits. (See earlier post. ) Hymns.. I happen to like organs but draw the line at mouth organs. We may need a reformed church chapter to accommodate your strange musical tastes...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jun 13 - 10:22 PM Steve, I understand that the origin of the idea of a Jack O'Lantern as an scary icon of Halloween had its origins in sightings of ball lightning. Religious symbolism? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Ebbie Date: 22 Jun 13 - 07:59 PM I have seen ball lightning - or at least balls of fire in the sky - at least three times. The first time was the most impressive: My brothers and I were in the wash house of a dairy while an electric storm was in progress. The tip-out window and the door across the room from it were both wide open even though I asked my brothers if we could close it. Suddenly there was a LOUD crack of lightning and a large orange ball came in the window, squashing slightly to fit, and then drifted lazily out the door. I don't remember any noise, no hissing or sparking or anything like that. However, the boys then closed the door. I think I am a good woman but, really, I am not a joiner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Jun 13 - 07:17 PM Er, nice idea, Don, but a pumpkin is both too similar yet not different enough to my glowing red ball lightning orb, if you see what I mean. A bit like those two tunes you daren't play both of because they're uncomfortably similar in the B part and you might unintentionally segue from one to the other, to the chagrin of the other sessionistas... Not only that, there the danger of potential new adherents to the creed thinking that a pumpkin is just, er, pie in the sky...if you see what I mean... Let's not rush this... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jun 13 - 07:02 PM CLICKY. Don Firth (just passing through) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Jun 13 - 05:35 PM We do need a gospel, Musket. Do you think think we can start by working the doubting-Thomas ploy on people who deny ball lightning? I'm also working on forcible recruitment procedures in maternity wards (which could include the ritual removal of the left ear pinna of all infants) and a fear factor. Maybe a night out with Ann Widdecombe for venial sins and two nights outs with Ann Widdecombe for mortal jobs...or, maybe, nights in... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Jun 13 - 05:23 PM Well, pete, that was the usual pile of incomprehensible, ignorant bilge. Now shut up because you are interrupting the formation of a new religion. Naturally, we're adopting the template of all the other biggies, including the adoption of misogyny (I'm sure you can wade in with some of your anti-abortion guff) and some inexplicable, quasi-miraculous phenomenon or other that has only the word of uncorroborated witness (my certainty, nay, nascent gospel, over my ball lightning sighting, once I've fleshed it out). Gosh, we even have the seeds of renaissance Christianity here: an already-forming schism, à la Luther (Lex? God, I'm confused) vs. Catholics-style, in the form of Sheffield "Protestant" Wednesday (the fans protest hugely at their team's lack of achievement) and Liverpool, once managed by Pope Shankly-the-Only. There are drawbacks in following the formula of course. We desperately need a novel angle. I'm thinking breweries in place of cathedrals. Musket...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 22 Jun 13 - 04:26 PM bill- you say i should be assured,as though it was an unassalable given,but then qualified it with ifs and whens.my first response posted [but not appearing- again!] was to ask you to provide some link to this groundbreaking discovery. but having re-read your post i see no such claim. has there been much since urey/miller . after repeated experiments less than half the amino acids needed to even start anything even remotely likely to begin life were produced.and that was with directed experiment.the general theory of evolution posits no intelligence,as of course atheism demands , and why ,i suggest,they either state that science is closing in on the answers,or that they can live with not knowing,and shrug it off.the first is a faith statement,the second is evading the problem of very basic science that even i can comprehend,ie life only comes from life. whilst appreciating your studies in the formation of argument,i suggest that not even with such training are you safe from your own worldview and the presuppositions stemming from such mindset. the creationist generally admits to his presuppositions but despite popular caricature the creationist argument encompasses the scientific.therefore the dichotemy you present between the religious and the scientific is false at worst,and exagerated at best. musket- the similarities between pagan myths and the Jesus story are grossly exagerated and only seem valid by pulling bits out of the whole .some of those myths often appealed to actually follow and borrow from the Christ story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans sloppy seconds Date: 22 Jun 13 - 12:12 PM I know one called Trinity if that helps. Or at least I used to. Ironically she married a vicar and they went off to run a missionary in a country where the locals will all happily convert so long as they give them wells, irrigate fields etc. Our religion will have none of that shit. You do the frighten them with fire balls and dire prognostications, I will be in charge of collection plates and imposing our beliefs on politicians. Trinity can make us cups of tea and wash up. After all, she is only a woman so not much point in training her to be one of our bishops. We will have plenty of time available to watch Sheffield Wednesday beat Liverpool in the cup because we won't have to spend our Saturdays conducting gay weddings either. You don't have to put up with all that shit when you run religions apparently. Wish I'd thought of it before. My song writing will be easier too, just repeat vague mantras over and over again till brain washing sinks in. Best not recruit choir or altar boys though, just in case.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Jun 13 - 10:19 AM I was thinking of forming a trinity. You, me, and do you know a good woman? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans atheism Date: 22 Jun 13 - 10:14 AM I'll follow you mate. Do we get to wear silly robes and intimidate vulnerable people? Count me in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Jun 13 - 09:59 AM It's very interesting, isn't it. I saw ball lightning one midnight in about 1983. There is no doubt about what I saw, stone-cold sober as I went outside to get the cat in There is was, floating for three minutes low over my street's rooftops, heading for Epping Forest, a fizzing, incandescent red globe as big as a beach ball. As far as I'm concerned, ball lightning is true. But I'm not asking anyone to believe that. No-one else was out and about, unfortunately. I don't even mind being called deluded. I saw what I saw and you can't change my mind. I've researched it thoroughly (and honestly) ever since and nothing I've found out has worked against what I saw. I could set up a ball-lightning religion. People have set up religions on far shakier foundations, so why not? All I need to do is work out a way of persuading people that ball lightning will get you in the end if you ever dare say it isn't true. I'm working on it. I am the ball lightning Messiah! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Jun 13 - 09:42 AM So perhaps our treasured atheists can tell us exactly why they are atheists, rather than skeptics. Because atheism is simply a shrug of the shoulders in the face of all the pro-God prosyletising. There is no need for sniffy scepticism. I told you why I'm an atheist less than week ago. I'm an atheist because: There is no evidence for a God. The laws of nature can probably explain everything, though we do need to understand all those laws first. We are closing in on even the hardest issues still to be explained, and there's no need to interpose an "explanation" that explains nothing, least of all itself. I can't see where I need to insert scepticism. It's really simple. I get with life as if God isn't there (except for arguing with believers who do stupid things like encourage their children to "believe in God" and force them to say prayers and go to religion lessons in silly faith schools, and with confounded idiots who preach creationist piffle in the face of all the evidence for evolution and who can't use the shift key). I'm not sceptical about what people want to believe. I was sceptical about ball lightning until I saw it for myself. The only thing I would say is that if you believe in God you should keep it strictly to yourself. If all believers did that right and moral thing, and left their kids alone, you wouldn't hear a peep from atheists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans scepticism Date: 22 Jun 13 - 03:45 AM Michael puts it succinctly and with a well aimed arrow. However, never one to shy away from ridicule and clumsy laughing and pointing, I may add the following.... As there is rock hard physical evidence to show that most of the Jesus myth was borrowed from earlier fables in order to assimilate "savages" into "noble" fear and superstition, and considering it is patently obvious from physical evidence that Genesis starts on a false premise, hence the rest can make use of the biblical pillar of salt.... You cannot be sceptical about the truth of fables, physical impossibilities and conflicting fables depending on which superstition you were raised under. That gives credence to ridiculous concepts and most people are educated and mature enough to see straight through it, so no need to be sceptical any more than being sceptical over the existence of lizards running governments. You may only either laugh, (my pathetic but satisfying response) or smile indulgently, (the response of most rational people.). On balance, the latter response only serves to encourage the buggers. That wouldn't be a problem but most religious types wish society to beat to their drum. Piss off is therefore an appropriate response. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: MGM·Lion Date: 22 Jun 13 - 01:53 AM Why, Ron; some concepts are so beyond-the-pale just plain silly that scepticism is not enough to express one's sense of their entire absurdity. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Ron Davies Date: 22 Jun 13 - 12:54 AM Skepticism makes perfect sense; atheism makes as much sense as fundamentalism (and no more), and for the same reason--as I have noted more than once. So perhaps our treasured atheists can tell us exactly why they are atheists, rather than skeptics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Jun 13 - 08:26 AM My appreciation of Westminster Abbey or staring at Botticelli is no less of an experience just because I dismiss the supernatural dimension and instead marvel purely at the skills of the artist as a human. Out of pure logic you could easily dismiss the supernatural dimension, but if it's there, and the artist intended it, it's there, so enjoy! I regard my atheism as incorruptible by such things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Ed Brown Date: 21 Jun 13 - 06:57 AM If "militant atheism" has become a religion, then "militant non-attendance at heavy metal concerts" has become a new kind of music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans art Date: 21 Jun 13 - 06:49 AM To be fair Michael, my first draft did include religious art and architecture. My appreciation of Westminster Abbey or staring at Botticelli is no less of an experience just because I dismiss the supernatural dimension and instead marvel purely at the skills of the artist as a human. Art is no less wonderful if it happens to be diabolical. William Blake being the example that comes to mind. I am irreligious yet hairs stand up at the back of my neck when I have been fortunate enough to gaze at some of your examples, or when listening to Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring in a church during a concert. (We are lucky around here with concert availability) but at the same time, a relative who smiles too much and plays drums at his "church" on a Sunday wouldn't know a Picasso from a Giraffe's arsehole. Funnily enough, if I were minded to join the club, I would struggle to find a real church with just organ, King James words in the prayers and Wesley hymns. I am sure I would settle for nothing less (or, Clapton forbid,) more..... On a similar note, I don't share McColl's rose tinted views on travellers, but have been known to sing Freeborn Man because it is a beautiful song. I go to see Dick Gaughan too for his wonderful guitar and complimentary gruff voice, but let the hand wringing messages wash over me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: MGM·Lion Date: 21 Jun 13 - 06:36 AM And with quite a lot of it, what's more, one gets the impression that a lot of the creators involved were like Vaughan Williams, who declared himself an unbeliever but found he liked writing the sort of music expected of composers of devotional music. There is enormous humour in Gossaert's St Luke Painting The Virgin in the Kunsthistoriches Museum in Vienna: the Virgin is borne up on a cloud by infant angels; but their expression is agonised because she is so heavy! Lots of humorous touches in Benozzo Gozzoli's Journey of the Magi in Florence, all the way round the walls of a chapel in the Medici Palace without ever actually getting there; and some really kinky element in the same artist's Life Of St Augustine in his Cathedral in San Gimignano, with the Father of the Church in his schooldays being horsed by a bigger boy to be thrashed on the bare buttocks by his schoolmaster. Lots of such examples. One can't help but suspect a bit of doubt in the truth of it all by the artists concerned! ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Jun 13 - 05:54 AM I'm very comfortable with all religion-inspired, art, architecture and music, and why on earth shouldn't I be? They are among the highest pinnacles of achievement of the human mind and I'm a human too. There's nothing I love more than to make a beeline for the cathedral if I'm visiting a city I haven't been to before. I was recently in the Accademia in Venice and was staggered by the beauty of the religious imagery on display, and I stood, gobsmacked, in front of a Titian Madonna for over half an hour (the missus thought I'd gone mad). Actually, if you go far enough back in music, you'd be hard-pressed to divorce almost any of it from murky religious origins. I'm not especially comfortable with the fact that much great art is "owned" by various religions, representing a large part of their untold and usually ill-gotten wealth, but, in that respect, religion is no different from any other capitalist individual or institution. All art is part of our shared heritage as human beings. I might even be so cheeky as to suggest (insupportably) that the unshackled mind of the atheist may well be far better equipped to appreciate it in the round... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: MGM·Lion Date: 21 Jun 13 - 03:19 AM Altho on your side, Musket, I must say that I don't think our view [so far as we share it] is enhanced by what I believe are poor arguments. OK, so music is abstract and has no specific devotional or didactic content. But other arts -- painting, sculpture, architecture, poetry -- are not, & can have. And all have been greatly served by, and have reciprocally served, the religious impulse, to the great enrichment of the world. Credit where due. Would you wish to be without Botticelli's astonishing Nativity, Caravaggio's Supper at Emmaus, Leonardo's Last Supper, Velazquez's Immaculate Conception, the Dome of the Rock, The Sistine Chapel, King's College Chapel, Bourges Cathedral, Dante's Divine Comedy, Milton's Paradise Lost, the Everyman morality ~~ Ecclesiastes and The Song Of Songs, for that matter...? And add your own list: it could go on pretty well to ∞. Blowed if I would. ~MichaeL~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans Bach Date: 21 Jun 13 - 01:22 AM Here, can you smell something? Smells a bit like bullshit to me. Religion has no music. It has words, granted. Charles Wesley was born 3 miles from where I type and the place is subject to daily pilgrimages. Fair play. He had an effect on many, even me. After all, it was his turgid mantras that dominated school assemblies, the nearest that children of rational parents got. Bach didn't write religious music. He wrote music and gave it religious titles due to his strong faith. The music was of course abstract, same as any other music. In fact, his use of cadence gave a more detailed perspective of the infinite universe than any science can allow us to grasp. Ron may well read this thread but what it says and what he takes from it are two very different things. A rather typical straw grasping approach, commonly seen to support superstition rather than reflect faith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Jun 13 - 08:34 PM You're talking rather unfocussed bollocks there, Ron. By the way, there is only one way an atheist can assert certainty on this question, and that is by saying that God does not exist. Show me one atheist on this thread that has made that assertion and I promise to give him or her a personal public big bollocking from me. Nah. Let's face it. Certainty over this issue resides solely in the realms of people of religion. You'll see it in all their prayers and hymns and in what they tell their children. Do try to select the right target. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Jun 13 - 04:44 PM So after almost 1,000 posts it is clear, as I and others have noted more than once, that militant atheism, as seen in all its brilliance on this very thread (imagine that!) and fundamentalism have in common that they both assert more certainty than is justified in the the field they both purport to address. The main difference appears to be that atheism has perfectly wretched music-- (always excepting the glory that is Frank Zappa)--,while music strongly endorsing belief contains many of the cultural peaks of civilization, as well as scads of merely great music. Small wonder that sensible folks like Bill D, if given the chance to hit a button which would eliminate all religion, would not in fact hit the button. But perhaps we should not give some of our eminent, if less stable, posters access to the button. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Jun 13 - 08:33 PM just because you say God is implausible,dont make it so ,steve. Just because you say God is plausible don't make it so, pete. And you invented him. I didn't. The ball is wholly in your court. IMO an intelligent creator is much more logical than blind chance. Why, of course. But your problem is that blind chance has even less a role in things than your God. Blind chance plays no part whatsoever in my thinking, pal. you have no other explanation and just insert unknown science into the gaps.it is a faith position Two things here. You have no explanation at all, and there is no such thing as unknown science. This statement confirms what the rest of us, bar Wacko, have known all along: that you know nothing about science, that you are too bloody lazy to learn anything about it, but that you are prepared to diss it, and insult hard-working scientists, at every opportunity. ____________________________________ [edited due to personal insults] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Bill D Date: 19 Jun 13 - 08:33 PM Pete..."..you are sounding very authoritative about that 14 billion years and the measurements[?] " No, that is not my "area of expertise". My area of expertise is understanding how arguments and data are obtained, presented and logically defended. I spent 6 years and 132 hours in college wallowing in that sort on inquiry. I cannot do the math and build the instruments that did those astronomical measurements, nor can I do the archeology and translation of ancient texts that explore the basis of Biblical documents. I can, however, evaluate the basic kind of facts and rational basis each purports to defend. If someone told me (or you) that they got the age of the Universe.. or the age of the Earth.. from a Ouija board or from a mystical dream their grandfather had, we would both be more than a bit skeptical of the conclusions. If grandfather's dreams could accurately predict the stockmarket or elections regularly, we might take serious notice, even though we didn't quite know how it worked. As I have said before, the data & conclusions of science are are a different type than those of religion, and the rationalizations that religion makes when it disagrees with science simply fail the test of logical coherence. (**NOTE**.. this means even if they WERE true, they are not properly defended!) Grandfather 'might' make an accurate prediction about the stock market based on his dream, but we know that whatever claim he makes about the source of his insight is not likely to stand up to scrutiny.) Now.. you replied to Steve Shaw about an 'intelligent creator' and 'biogensis'. Be assured that science now CAN describe the basic process of how 'life' evolves from basic elements... given certain conditions. In fact, physics & chemistry are now showing that SOME life is almost inevitable when certain elements are present under certain conditions. It would not necessarily produce 2 legged bipeds who argue with each other every time, but the basic brew can't be avoided. If you choose to favor the idea of an 'intelligent creator' overseeing the process, I can only *shrug*...that depends on wrapping your head around the concept OF an 'intelligent creator' who preceeded all existence. I find it just as easy to imagine science's 'big bang' of a 'singularity' as to imagine a spiritual being saying "let there be.." The difference is, I do not psychologically need to have an **absolutely guaranteed answer**. I am willing to say.."Hmmm.. it looks like we may never answer that ultimate question of :Why is there something, rather than nothing?" Science can at least build bigger telescopes and dig deeper into physics. I'm not sure how religious theory can adjust over time to new insights. The problem is, they don't seem to think it's necessary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST Date: 19 Jun 13 - 05:32 PM The Miller/Urey Experiment would be a good place to start. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 19 Jun 13 - 04:58 PM just because you say God is implausible,dont make it so ,steve. IMO an intelligent creator is much more logical than blind chance.you have no other explanation and just insert unknown science into the gaps.it is a faith position. musket - i have been waiting for some answers myself.and you scientists ought to be able to supply them since you are so adament that evolutionism is true.you will not get anything very technical from me.i will stick with more basic concepts like for example- biogenesis.so what evidence do you have that life can come from anything but existing life.that will do for starters? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Musket Date: 19 Jun 13 - 02:22 PM Still waiting the the techy stuff to back up pete's assertion. In the meantime, can you stop talking about the atheist view? There isn't one. Reality is understood by most people, regardless of what gets them through the night. I am supposedly an atheist. I like to go to folk clubs. Ergo only atheists go to folk clubs? Apples & pears pete. Apples and pears. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Jun 13 - 12:52 PM backward search for a cause must stop somewhere and the God [whose description is in the bible] does fit the bill God "fits the bill" by far the least well of any other explanation (I'm being kind inserting the word "other" there, as God doesn't explain anything, least of all himself). What you appear to be saying is that science hasn't got the complete answers as yet so that gives you free licence to insert any other "explanation " you like, no matter how improbable. All I can say is that your "explanation" would be worth listening to if only you had a scrap of evidence of some kind for it. But you haven't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 19 Jun 13 - 12:32 PM welcome back to the dabate bill,if a guest might be permitted to say so. you are sounding very authoritative about that 14 billion years and the measurements[?] used to arrive at that conclusion ,but unless that is your area of expertise, i suspect you are relying on what you have been told is the case. admittedly,i am doing the same,and am trusting that the reasons given are valid.even supposing you are very versed in the specific discipline there are others who interprete the data differently,be they evolutionist or creationist, or something inbetween. i am not convinced that to ask why there should be a God,and be eternal is a valid objection to a theistic presuppossition. if he were not so [ie eternal and sufficiently powerful],it would indeed just keep pushing the problem further back.granted,just because scripture says so dont make it so - as far as the atheist at least,is concerned.however i suggest that even leaving aside the bible the backward search for a cause must stop somewhere and the God [whose description is in the bible] does fit the bill,bill! i do not accept either your inference that soch a faith position inhibits further investigation.science progressed very well under a biblical worldview.who was it said he was "thinking Gods thoughts after him"? so what is the atheist left with?.conjectering backwards ,never arriving at an answer because God is sidelined as a matter of course. of course there is the other faith position,that is impossible to know,and so oftened expressed by steve,-that science is steadily closing in................ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check Date: 19 Jun 13 - 02:52 AM 4. Say that the author wasn't dumbing it down but was trying to understand the world around him, conveniently filling in the gaps with fantasy. Which is not a bad thing. Any hypothesis is fantasy till proved to be a fact. The difference of course is that luckily, nobody started a religion based on The Principia.... If they had, our understanding of the universe would not have progressed so far as it has. Don't forget Darwin hid his work for years due to his failing superstition and the strengthening superstition of Victoria England. I like reading some of the posts here. Cheaper than investing in a Salvador Dali to stare at....... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Jack the Sailor Date: 19 Jun 13 - 12:26 AM Joe, pete, interesting discussion. My problem with trying to find science in Genesis, is that there isn't enough there to be a basis of scientific thinking. "let there be light." doesn't exactly explain where the hydrogen that the Sun is burning came from. So as a Christian trying to make sense of it all beyond what is there. I am left with three choices. 1 Call it allegory and appreciate the poetry of it as Joe does. 2 Say the author was dumbing it down for the audience of 3000 years ago. 3 Insist that it is all literally make up what it means and the missing parts of the narrative and selectively try to cherry pick scientific data to support the theory I have invented (creationism) My approach is a combination of 1 & 2 At least I am not a big banger, but that's not what the wife says. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: MGM·Lion Date: 18 Jun 13 - 05:46 PM Ah, hip-hooray. Another Asimov admirer. Tho of course he had his limitations. He knew as much about developments in computing as any man alive; so he wrote his great stories about Multivac, the great computer 2ce the size of Los Angeles. But, alas, even he didn't predict the microchip. He died before knowing that so few years later we would all be walking about with computers just as powerful as he ever imagined his Multivac would be in our trousers pockets & handbags. Or even that I would be switting here with one on my desktop, typing this to have it instantly transported thru cyberspace to where you will all be able to read it ... NOW ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: GUEST,Musket sans Fred Hoyle Date: 18 Jun 13 - 01:27 PM Fred Hoyle and his steady state, in a similar way of thinking that had Victorians using an ether state as they felt nothing could work in a vacuum, was slowly dropped as an hypothesis as the evidence started corroborating the newer thoughts. Hoyle to be fair was consistent with Newton who also saw relativity as being against a solid true state, time and position based. Einstein and relativity destroyed key tenets of The Principia. That publication was about as near to scripture as science dare allow. I had a hard time in my viva using Newton's bucket as an example of holding onto old theories.... No issue with that. Einstein had issues with Hesienberg's uncertainty, saying that God didn't throw dice. Note that he wasn't supporting any version of god, but using the term as a metaphor for what we are trying to discover. He and Schroedinger cooked up the cat analogy as a piss take to show the absurdity of probability in quantum mechanics and inadvertently described the situation perfectly.... The difference between superstition and science is that you can update science tomorrow, hence the myriad versions of string theory and dark matter / boson speculation. Once the merry go round in Switzerland does it's work fully, some theories, proudly held, shall disappear. Rather than start a war, those involved will learn from the experience. Do superstitions allow themselves to be defeated by evidence? thought not. pete sounds like those idiots in Hammer Horror films, dog collar and crucifix at the ready, staring at the camera saying there are some things mortals must never learn. Go on pete, give us the tech stuff. we can handle it you know. I have a PhD in mechanical vibration and others have declared their credentials. I guarantee it will get an objective scrutiny. Once I stop laughing. I suggest reading Asimov's wonderful essay in "The Stars in their Courses." He took apart religious publications showing how science proves biblical teachings. A wonderful example is the text that was standard RE text in some American states during the '50s that said Venus did a flyby of earth that resulted in hydrocarbons in the huge comet tail comin down as carbohydrates, hence manna from heaven and all that tosh. And Asimov has written many religious texts himself for that matter. he was just too intelligent to see the fairies at the bottom of the garden. Same as many more vaguely religious people who creationists and sundry fruitcakes insult each and every day... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: Bill D Date: 18 Jun 13 - 01:27 PM "...big bangers use unsubstantiated fudge factors to solve their deficiency of explanation." Pete...YOU would have to show where this happens. The scientists who simply try to follow where the laws of physics lead have been finding for several decades now that the "big bang" fits the measurements and is... so far... a coherent model for **what has actually happened**. That means all discoverable science seems to point to that 14 billion year-old event. Now... what WENT *bang* and how that got there is a matter of real debate. Why SHOULD there have been a 'singularity' to go *bang*? Maybe... *shrug* .. a 'god' put it there and said "Let there be light!"... maybe not. It's not exactly something we are likely to get to soon. It may even be theoretically impossible to 'see' back to and before the Beginning. However... IF one chooses to believe that a 'beginning' must itself have a cause, and that 'God' is the only possible 1st cause, one must still confront the same question that 'big bangers' confront: Why should there have been anything, even a God? How did a 'God' get there... (where ever 'there' is). Simply stating "God is eternal" is a human mindset... not a proof of anything. It is one choice amidst several theories. Then, arguing that God "said so" thru the bible is just a circular argument. The Christian bible was written and edited and translated and interpreted by MEN, no matter what you choose to believe about 'inspiration'. We fallible humans can only measure what we can measure and try to make it all internally consistent with reason... adjusting as we go. Religious 'answers' are just one way of saying "we don't need all those measurements... we have this book." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion From: MGM·Lion Date: 18 Jun 13 - 11:37 AM Must be admitted that the acceptance of 'Big Bang', which was for years in competition with Fred Hoyle's 'Steady State', is pretty recent -- about the last 30 or 40 years or so? I am far from believing that it is the sole, or the correct, explanation of the, at present at all events, inexplicable ~~ hence my previous thread which I mention above. Which of course doesn't make me a believer in 'creation' by any sort of entity which could be defined as any sort of 'deity'. ~M~ |
