BS: Faith

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 03:07 AM

Thanks for the appreciation of my thoughts, Jerry...
A wee story, and truth in every word;
I was a miner [an engineer, but I was down there with the lads, and I proudly wear the "Miner" badge]. In the year 1950, in early September, at a coal pit called Knockshinnoch, one hundred and twenty-nine men were trapped underground by an inrush of peaty sludge from an undetected peat basin on the surface. The accident was caused thro' taking money-saving shortcuts by administration. [At the later inquiry, it was put down to "an act of God"---some "god", eh?] Every escape route from the pit was irretrievably blocked by the black porridge-like peat, and it seemed certain that every man was lost. I worked in the neighbouring colliery, and one of my mates, who had been around in the mines longer than me came up with the suggestion that perhaps an abandoned working in OUR mine came pretty close to the mine in which the men were trapped. This turned out to be the case; there was, according to old surveys, forty feet of strata between our mine and the area in which the men were trapped. So the rescue op. became focused on our mine. I could easily write a book about the days that followed. It was an unforgettable struggle. But to get to the point I wish to make; halfway down the long, dark slope of "Number six mine" [abandoned for coal working, kept open for dewatering purposes] there was a twelve-by-eight-inch steel beam spanning the width of the mine roof, bent and twisted by the relentless pressures of subsiding strata, dripping foul water and festooned with dank fungus. One girder among hundreds on the long trudge to the point at which the "rescue" was proposed. But different in one respect; some time in the distant past, when men went down here on their daily graft, some evangelical fella --probably a Baptist---had scrawled a message in ten-inch high letters along that beam, and it had stood the test of time, water and rust. "God is Love", it said. I wonder how many of the many hundreds who struggled and sweated down there that weekend looked at that chalk message quoting John the Baptist, and thought, like me, "Well, I sure can't put the finger on who got my mates into this shit, but there could be a hint as to who will get them out!"
We DID get them out, all but thirteen men who were caught in the initial flood of silt. I could have finished at the end of my comment in quotes, but have added the last two sentences knowing that some folks might want to know the outcome. Makes me wonder about the relevance of the Pope, Ian Paisley, and the Moderator of the Presbyterian Kirk....

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 12:09 AM

I wouldn't be too sure about that one , Jer. Depends on what you mean by "I", of course, but something will survive, the you before you decided to go into the business of being Jerry, and that you will survive just fine.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 11:01 PM

Hey Amos: If one believes in God, they have to believe He has a really great sense of humor. Sometimes, all I can do is laugh at what I see happening around me because it seems so ludicrous.

Jeanie gave me a little two line joke that I really liked.

"Want to know how to make God laugh?
Tell Him your plans for the future."

I'll never get out of this world alive!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:56 PM

I'm with you, Bill on a couple of points. Whenever they takes polls in this country it seems like 80% of the people interviewed say they believe in God. For some (maybe many) that's where it stops. It's not a lot different than saying that you believe the sun is going to rise tomorrow morning. Maybe the follow up question to "Do you believe in God?" should be "And therefor?" Just believing that someone created the Universe doesn't give me much of an idea why I'm here, or what I should be doing with my life.

I also don't see the need of posting the Ten Commandments in a public place. It's not that I would be offended if they had a religious writing of Muhammad or Buddah hung on the wall. I might or might not
read it, and if I did, I might find something in it worth reflecting on. I just think the focus is all wrong. Rather than being concerned about public prayer, if you believe in God, you should make His presence known in your home by the way you live. As they say in the black churches, "You gotta walk that walk, not just talk that talk." The way you live is the best testimony for your beliefs, whether you believe in God or not. I know many people who don't believe in God who have a strong sense of righteousness, honesty and responsibility who pass that on to their children because they live their belief.

I also think you're right that belief comes first, faith for most people takes living to grow strong.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Peace
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:53 PM

Mary from K,

If your writing is any indication, you are one of the brains here.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:49 PM

awwww..*smile*...thanks, Mary...(it is genuine work to struggle through the philosophical terms with precision and open-mindedness, and I know folks who can run rings around me at the business!..I learned just enough to be dangerous ;>)

(I see my old Philosophy prof. Gerald Paske has retired...he had the ability to home in on 'exactly' what was at issue in an argument and make careless thinkers look foolish.) Respected, but NOT loved!

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:43 PM

BELIEFS

Nothing is so firmly believed as what we least know.

                      Michael De Montaigne

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:24 PM

As Brucie said, "Man, there's some serious brains on this thread."

I enjoy READING philosophy/religion/debate discussions tremendously, and have learned a lot...but somehow, I just don't enjoy verbalizing such ideas. I don't know if it's a lack of skill on my part or what...but it seems that so many discussions (I'm thinking more of the how to argue thread) are just too nebulous for me to get a handle on. (That was a polite expression of how I really feel...but that's another thread.)

I remember seeing a round table discussion hosted by Bill Moyers (PBS TV program) about the Bible or something. It was very disturbing for me to listen to because it seemed that nobody was exploring one idea to "exhaustion." I felt that as each person made a point he/she just introduced more tension, and there never was any resolution. (think musically here) My friend who loves political discussions loved it...she can somehow think in many directions at once, and it seemed to her that everyone was getting a chance to express his/her individual idea.

Bill, I follow-up on many of your links, so keep 'em comin'. Many times there are philosophical terms for the ideas I struggle to verbalize. (I also like your links to free stuff on the net!)

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:14 PM

convictions about how this whole crazy world works

Well, that's the rub, innit? You build a perfectly good set of convictions and the world still acts crazy. So either your convictions aren't a model of reality or they leave something major out which is skewing the phenomena compared to the model OR there's a HUGE Authoritarian Boss just shoving things around willie-nillie playing Department Head with the universe.

I submit that if your convictions don't include an understanding of the wildness of the wildcards, the model is not complete. So you keep on looking some more.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:11 PM

Jerry..in my head, 'faith' comes after belief...sort of a subset. If I 'believe' in something, then what do I presume follows from that? What about my belief am I confident in? One can 'believe' in a Supreme Being or Universal Spirit (much like Little Hawk refers to, I'd imagine), but have NO 'faith' about what this implies. (I have met a number of people who DO claim they believe in a 'creator', but have no idea what one should do about it!)

I noticed a very similar semantic difficulty in the recent case of the Alabama judge who had the 10 commandments monument installed. When interviewed, he kept using the phrase "I have the right to 'acknowlege' God..."....which supposes that the issue of whether there IS a god is not even debatable. Implicit in the wording is not only his belief, but also his 'faith' about what God wants and what we should DO. He had no problem moving from his 'strong belief', which he felt personally as 'revealed truth', to the position that since (not 'if', since) it WAS truth, it should be inflicted on ..ummm..'shared with' everyone...and that makes a sort of awkward sense, huh? I would presume that the ex-justice could see very little distinction between faith, belief and 'knowlege'...at least in religious matters.

(if pressed, I would argue, at least to get the discussion moving, that faith is 'about' a belief or set of interlocked beliefs)

does that make any sense?

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:42 PM

... and of course I've met people who are condescending toward those who believe in God, saying that it's just a crutch, or a fig Newton of the imagination. I've also met a lot of wonderful people who don't believe in God, who are very respectful of my faith, as I am of them. I don't much like the ones who are condescending (it not being one of my favorite qualities in people) and I truly enjoy those who see that there are many perspectives on something as important as why we are here, and what we should do with our lives.

Mudcat is not a hotbed of religious enthusiasm, exactly, and yet I have rarely had anyone insult or condescend to me in here. Those who have are certainly in the small minority. And I can deal with that, too..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:36 PM

Hey, c'mon John.. I didn't mean to offend you. I must admit, I prefer "some people" to "they." I never quite know how to respond to claims about groups of people. I had really hoped that this thread would give a positive chance for people to talk about their beliefs, and that's what it's been. I'd really be interested in hearing more about what YOU believe. I are a Christian too, and I welcome posts from everyone, whatever their belief. If people don't want to use the word "faith," for their convictions about how this whole crazy world works, that's allright with me. The posting on here have made me think, which isn't all bad. I too am struggling to figure out what the difference is between faith and belief, and in trying to understand it, and express it better, I trip all over myself. I find myself saying I believe in God, which is true and at the same time I have faith in God. Some things I believe in, but don't have any faith in.

It gets confusing. That's why I welcome everyone's conversation about their faith.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Peace
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:25 PM

Jerry,

They used to bug me lots when I was a younger man. They did this, and they did that. Kinda like an 'everyman' idea, but not.

Man, there's some serious brains on this thread. It is neat to read the views of people to do with how they see themselves in relation to their universe and sometimes their God or G-d or Universal Spirit or . . .

Truth is, we take most stuff on faith. Heck, why not? If I needed God to prove everything to me, I'd never get anything done.

I had a student ask at the time of 9/11 if we would die. I said, "Yes, but not just now." My greatest fear over the years is that of answering an accident call or fire call and finding one of my students trapped or worse. However, I still answer calls, because faith says it's gotta be that way. I awake each day with the faith that somehow things will work out, and most of the time that faith is not misplaced.

Good thread, Jerry.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:53 PM

So, because I used the word "they", you don't understand the point of my post, Jerry?

The "they" to which I referred, and Bill and Amos seemed to "get", is those rationalists who fail to see that they too live by faith, and demand superiority because, as Amos pointed out, they "the most successul religous movement to come down the pike ever, bar none".

Sorry you didn't get my point. Sorry I posted. You can have your thread back.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:20 PM

Jerry:

There is no They there, buddy.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:11 PM

It isn't that they don't have faith, John. They are just particpants in an unacknowledged cult, the Believers in the Physical Universe,   the most successul religous movement to come down the pike ever, bar none. Some folks don't recognize it as a faith, but it surely is.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:07 PM

I'm going to change my name to They. Jerry They. Or maybe Jerry People. "They", "People" and other group names don't do much to advance understanding. My ex-wife used to love to say "They" think you are a real idiot, or some other complimentary accolade, and I'd always counter with, "Who is this "They?" I'd like to meet him some time." Or my favorite response was "According to a recent nationwide poll... and then let my voice trail off." In arguments, it's always tempting to resort to "They" "People" or "Everyone" to get your point across. Trouble is, I can never figure out who "They," "people" or "everyone" is, and how the person knows what they all think.

I'd have to say that I rarely find anyone being condescending to me because I believe in God. First of all, I don't talk about religion a lot. Most people aren't comfortable talking about religion, because it can be such a divisive topic. Most people I know.

Are they the "They" everyone talks about? Maybe I do know them, and don't even know it :-)

Jerry They

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 07:57 PM

Yeah, Bill,

A writer I ain't. But that's the idea of what I was gettin' at. (now see, if I was a writer I'd have phrased that, "that's the idea at which I was gettin').

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 07:46 PM

John Hardly...I got a little confused at the use of 'we' in your post. You began with it referring to you & your friend, then it seemed to change into a reference to 'they', as in "...We arrogantly believe it unnecessary... we will graciously allow ..." and later in "We even think that we can divide our society..."

You seem to be objecting to the efforts of some to trivialize faith as being somehow "unscientific"...which, in fact, a few do. Of course, it IS unscientific, though hardly trivial. It is not supposed to be scientific...it comes from a different place, and is processed differently. One's defense or explanation OF their faith can be badly expressed or downright illogical--but that doesn't affect the ultimate 'truth' of it.
....and, since belief AND non-belief are both a form of faith, NEITHER should be considered 'true' or 'not true' based on the glibness of the argument!

Indeed 'empirical' and 'real' are words which can have very different meanings to people, and in any discussion where they are used, it should be made clear how they are being understood, lest the discussion be doomed from the beginning.

It is unfortunately the case that many on both sides of the faith/belief issue proceed without a clear understanding within thenselves just what they actually believe 'truth' to be, or how they got there....(as you can see above, I have struggled long to even express my personal position)

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 06:26 PM

I just sat across the dinner table from a good friend as we discussed this very topic -- faith.

He a Buddhist and I a Christian, yet we came to similar conclusions regarding faith in the modern, western world.

First, we both saw faith being sold at a discount. What a singular time to live in when so many believe that they don't live by faith -- so strong is the misunderstanding of, yet pervasive influence of science.

It's as though faith is the safety net of last resort. We arrogantly believe it unnecessary......and even when accepted as a part of our lives, tend to catagorize the types of faith into those we find tenable, and those that are the domain of the wacko (though we will graciously allow as how some of the wackos are nice enough. Maybe even "quaint").

We even think that we can divide our society into those who have faith and those that do not -- so that, if your faith is what informs your political POV, it is illegitimate (and the converse arrogance that "I" have a right to express myself politicially because {B}MY{/B} veiw is "rational" ......... {read: rational only}).

That means that the default setting for public conscience is set by those who beleive themselves faithless.

And then "they" throw the faithful a bone -- that is, they "don't mind us" as long as we understand that this silly little affectation of faith upon which we insist is OK as long as we *wink, wink* understand that it really isn't "real".

Seems to me that there's a real big misunderstanding right now in the minds of modern man -- that "empirical" and "real" are synonymous. They aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 05:57 PM

Thanks for that long background, Bill: I enjoyed reading it. I grew up in Wisconsin, not far from you. My parents didn't go to church much... I can barely remember them going. That wasn't because of a lack of desire on my Mother's part, but my Father didn't start going until I was starting to go to college. So, I just kinda grew up... my two closest friends in High School were Catholic, but most of my friends didn't go to church, and religion wasn't something I ever talked about. I went to Sunday school during the summer a couple times that I vaguely remember, but mostly I was just busy being a kid.
Maybe that was what was best for me. When I think of the people I've known who no longer believe in God, almost every one of them was raised in a strict home where church going was mandatory. Most of the people I know who were raised Catholic are Atheists now... Joe Offer and padre are Catters who have kept and strengthened their faith in the Catholic church in here. I think that I came about my faith, and the acceptance of people who were different from me from my Mother. She was never judgmental and just loved people for who they were. That doesn't mean that her faith isn't important to her, but she never tried to "convert" anyone, including people in her own family. So, you won't catch me trying to convert you Bill, or berate you for your beliefs. I'm just trying to live the best that I can within my own limitations. It's hard enough to know what I should be doing. I sure don't want to try to tell other people what to do. It's not that I think faith isn't important. I just think that it's personal.

And good for you, Bill to feel comfortable enough to share your thoughts. Ain't any one in here 'cept us folks.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Peace
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 04:37 PM

Faith means lots of things to me. And none are easy to explain.

I have faith in people--to do what's right and occasionally what's wrong. I have faith in my students to be honest with me, and occasionally not. I have faith in God, and occasionally I lose that faith. I have faith in love--that it will be true and sometimes not.
I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow, and I have faith that the day will come when I won't see it. I have faith that the men and women I enter fires with will look out for me and me for them. I have faith that I will do my best to be a good person, and I have faith that I will not always achieve that goal. I have faith that some people will like what I wrote, and I have faith that some won't. Faith is maybe what we know to be true tinged with lots of hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 04:31 PM

It is a bit strange, Jerry, to speak directly about issues of faith & belief (both very important issues and closely related, though not exactly the same) with folks like you who are sincere believers in one religious tradition. I have met so many who want to either 'cure' me or berate me for my errors & intransigence that I am always a little nervous..*wry grin*. (Growing up in Kansas, it was easy to say the wrong thing in awkward circumstances!)

I started out in life as a Methodist...my grandmother was quite active in her church, and because we moved a LOT when I was young, making getting attached to a church hard to do, we started attending semi-regularly when I was in 3rd grade and I began attending weekday Bible school at a church close to us. I was in 3rd & 4th grades, and I questioned very little. The stories were fascinating, and grownups I respected seemed to take them seriously...so what was to question? I simple had 'faith' and thus, belief.
   But the seeds of doubt were planted, because it was just in those years that it dawned on me that Santa Claus was 'just a story'...but my brother was 3 1/2 years younger, and it was easier to keep up the pretense. So, our family continued with sporadic church attendence for years, though 'religion' was not a daily issue and I did not have a close association with a minister or others whose faith WAS a daily issue. In fact, table grace was seldom encountered except at large family gathering where grandparents were involved. Nevertheless, at those times, I simply bowed my head and took this 'blessing' as normal...though I kinda remember being slightly embarrassed that we didn't do it regularly. I still had 'faith' that it was what we 'should' be doing, as I thought that vague penalties were supposed to be visited on those who didn't follow the rituals....and I still remember lying in bed at night at about the age of 12-12-14 praying a bit and asking for things and trying to make sure I 'kept my foot in the door'. I remember beginning to learn about 'naughty words' and worrying what would happen to me if I used them...so I tried whispering a few when I was alone..*grin*...nothing happened, but I wasn't sure why not. I never particularly wanted TO use them, I was just curious..........and there is the crux of it all.....

   That curiosity became a major part of my life. I had gotten a set of World Book Encyclopedias when I was in 5th grade, and I LOVED reading about 'stuff'...and the school library...wow! And there was stuff in the books about other religions...Buddhism and exotic 'foreign' religions, as well as Catholicism and Judaism and such that **I** had had very little contact with. And it gradually dawned on me that many of those religions did not get along with each other well!

....well, you see where this is going...bright kid reads stuff and develops doubts and asks questions- (I probably could have made the above a lot shorter, but it helps ME to get perspective to type it for myself). I became a serious 'doubter', in that I questioned 'why' on lots of things...even getting into arguments with my parents when they told me that tornados usually came from one direction.."but..it's a WIND..and winds blow all directions!"..took awhile before I got clear evidence as to 'why'. By the time I was in high school, philosophy was in my head, and by the time I was a senior, I was determined to major in it, though it would take several years before I could explain exactly why!

I was married in my first year in college (at 19!) and religion & faith came up...she was a girl who had defied her parents and become a Catholic, but who was not 'practicing' by the time we met, and I still had the tendrils of 'faith & belief' hanging on me, as religion had never particularly offended me...so we decided to join.....the Unitarians!

...and there it was...a FORMAL situation of joining with others to discuss & share issues of faith and morals and ideas, but with no invoking of Jesus...or even of God.. in a formal way...but merely accepting that human beings often need some way to express their wonder at the mysteries and joys of life, and need to share pains and frustrations and support each other.

So...as formal training in Philosophy and practical training in 'life' proceeded, the issues had to be confronted directly on many occasions...this was *KANSAS*, and many of the students in class with me were dedicated, confirmed....and often belligerent, Christians! There I was..needing to retain my cherished 'open mindedness', but still avoid conflicts with those who believed differently. Then I read Kierkegaard's "Fear & Trembling" and other works and came nose-to-nose with the story of Abraham & Isaac and THE great test of 'faith' in the Bible, at the same time I was discovering Kaufmann's books such as "Faith of a Heretic" (mentioned in earlier post). It was interesting...I saw God's testing of Abraham in two contexts...one was the 'original', in that supposedly, God spoke directly to Abraham in ordering the sacrifice of Isaac, and Abraham had to pay attention, though obviously in great conflict.
But then I had to see it from MY viewpoint, in that no test of this sort (that is, DIRECTLY from God) had ever been asked of me, and so far as I knew, of no one else for thousands of years. I simply could not imagine the sort of 'faith' that would be required to deal with that situation.....so, I needed to find a way to even deal with the very idea of faith in my developing view of things! (took me long enough to get to the point, hmmm? *grin*)
   Gradually, it became clear to me that I used 'faith' mostly to refer to what others were feeling, except for situations where I felt I had clear information. Do I 'know' the sun is going to rise tomorrow? Strictly, no...but I have faith that it will, as it has a perfect record of doing so. Do I 'know' that my car will start in the morning...nope, sometimes it doesn't, but I have 'faith' that it will...I believe that it will, as it has a very good record of doing so. Faith has become, for me, very much a matter of 'an informed wager'...a calculated risk, instead of the 'trust/faith/belief' in an abstract concept about souls, eternity and a creator that others profess.

   Others have used non-religious 'faith' to refer to much more poetic matters..faith in the spirit of Mankind, in one's own power to reason and be honorable, and those are good thoughts and tempting... but it seems to me that they are often equivocations on the meaning of the word.

In what may appear a bit of a circular analysis, I have 'faith' that the beliefs of others are the result of very different life experiences than I describe about myself above, and that others arrive at ways of dealing with the mysteries of life & the universe through paths that I have never walked and, literally, could not walk. Therefore, the 'faith' that seems strange to me when I look at it in others, from my external viewpoint, is also the most natural expression of their feelings for those involved...so it seldom does any good for me to debate the basis of it with them.

In all the threads in Mudcat in which I have offered opinions on these matters, I have tried to keep this distinction in mind and try to respect the path others have followed, while suggesting that since it IS such a complex issue, and that the very words faith & belief are used because no one can prove much one way or another, we need to quietly allow and tolerate, and even celebrate, when possible, differences, while staying aware that ultimate 'truth' could favor NONE of us. This is not easy for many to deal with...their emotional needs require an answer..not just directions and more questions!

I have FAITH that most of the good people I know will view my attempts to sort it all out with tolerance and forbearance...and JUST enough humor to keep us all smiling.....

now...I need to go back and re-edit all that for 3 days, figgering out better ways to say it all...but I ain't gonna....

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 03:01 PM

Thanks kindly, Jerry. I agree it's purdy wonderful when you find people you can lay your bricks on the table with, and expect to be tolerated as well as understood!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:49 PM

Hi, Bill:

I think it's fascinating that the movie I think best captures the power of Christ's life is The Gospel According To St. Mathhew, which was directed by Paolo Paolini who was not only an Atheist, but a Communist. Admittedly, Christ came off with an attitude more like Marlon Brando than Mother Theresa, but there were no Hollywood trappings or prettiness to the story. I spent years trying to get a video of the movie before I finally got a copy (at a rather hefty price.) One of these nights I'll put it on and see how graphic and realistic the crucifixion is. From what I remember, it was just graphic enough to realize the suffering involved. That movie and Jesus of Montreal are two of my favorite, most challenging and unconventional movies.

And Bill.. I don't think of you as an Atheist. I think of you as Bill.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:37 PM

well! Miss one day, and see what happens!

Jerry began this thread with lil' ol' me as an example:
" Friends of mine like Bill D have a strong faith, and is an Atheist. I don't consider that an oxymoron."....

you know, I don't believe I have ever described myself in speech or in print as an "atheist"....not that it isn't true, but I just don't like associating my ramblings with a very 'loaded' word which gets me lumped in with hateful people like Madeline Murry O'Hair.

I am still reading and digesting the posts here, and will have some thoughts when I have a bit more time.

It is fascinating, because I JUST discovered in a box an old book that I have had for 35 years, "The Faith of a Heretic" by the philosopher Walter Kaufmann. It was one of the most influential books of my life. (I'll say a bit more about it later...)

*off to think*

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:14 PM

And faith is an action verb.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:13 PM

Amos and Tinker: You both have added some wise observations to this conversation. And I am so delighted to have you both sharing in this conversation, as I value both of you as people. Funny thing about this Cafe.. you start to recognize people you feel a kinship and friendship with, and yet you don't really feel like you've gotten to know them. I don't think that it is a limitation of technology as much as it is the level on which we communicate. I've enjoyed you right from the beginning Amos, and obviously it wasn't because we shared the same faith. I don't know the faith of most people in here, any more than I know their political afilliation. And I don't feel the need to know. But, there is something about the person that shines through their postings that makes me feel like I'd really enjoy them as every day friends if we weren't separated by so many miles.

With all of the demands on our time and desires, we all tend to go cruising along, passing each other and waving a greeting, without ever really getting to know each other.

And tinker... a few years ago when all sorts of inexplicable changes were occurring in my life, I became very frustrated and confused. And impatient. Finally, a calm descended upon me and I felt that it wasn't necessary to make sense out of everything that happens in my life. Just the opposite. There are things that have happened, and are still happening in my life that don't make sense to me. But, I believe/have faith that when I am prepared to accept the changes, the reason and meaning will become apparent to me. I would say that they will be revealed to me when I have been fully prepared and canhandle them. Others might think that they've figured everything out on their own. All I know is that I am extremely limited in my ability to understand what is going on in my life and in the lives around me. My wisdom is very finite. And that's alright with me. It was a great relief when I finally realized that I don't have to understand everything, and what's more, there are things that are beyond human understanding. For me, that's where faith kicks in. We all use our own words.

But, isn't it wonderful to be able to talk openly about what is at the heart of our lives without judging each other?

I love it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:02 PM

I used to like their shoes.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 11:16 AM

Faith for me is also remembering to fullly grasp and experience life even when I can't reduce it to an understandable and rational explanation


I'd say that's more'n good enough, TInker! Spot on.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Tinker
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:59 AM

Jerry !!! My house is a mess, my garden is desperate, and I'm sitting here pulling books off the shelf, re-reading posts, shaking my head in agreement or stopping suddenly and saying no that's not part of my view at all... Thanks.

To begin, for me Faith is a verb. To live in faith is to accept a journey where I have to acknowledge that by definition the ultimate is unknowable to my puny little brain, but that there will be tiny moments of pure simplicity that baffle my abilty to explain. It's not founded in my beliefs, because it regularly chews them up and expects me to put them back together in a semblance of order. In fact it's a paradoxical thing this Faith, it tends to defy it's own definition. ( Perhaps because really it's only words we've wrapped around an idea we can't quite grasp ) In fact those I know who are the most grounded in Faith have the deepest sense of their own helplessness and inabilities, yet have an amazing abilty to reflect the Light. Faith for me is also remembering to fullly grasp and experience life even when I can't reduce it to an understandable and rational explanation.

I just reread this and I'm still not satisfied, but for this moment it'll have to do.

Kathy

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:17 AM

Thanks for taking the time to look up the definitions of faith and belief in the dictionary, Wolfgang. Sometimes, the biggest hindrance to communication is words.

I love God, I love pizza. I believe I'm going to get my paycheck this Friday, I believe that my cancer will go into remission.

All we can hope is that, in trying to express ourselves as accurately and honestly as we can, that we can truly communicate with each other.
Not just talk.

I appreciate your thoughts, Wolfgang, whatever words you find most honest in labeling them. Despite all of our differences, there is much common ground to share and enjoy.

Jerry

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:21 AM

Jerry,

you've opened a can of worms with that question. Everybody seems to have a different understanding of the word 'faith' and most of the conflicts here come from different understandings.

Let's have a look into Webster's dictionary what 'faith' can be:

(1) (a) Allegiance to duty or a person
    (b) Fidelity to one's promises

I can easily understand for instance Doug's post in that sense. Bobert, of course, uses another sense of 'faith' to make fun of Bush as Doug's 'God'.

(2) (a) Belief and trust in and loyality to God
    (b) Belief in the traditional doctines of a religion
    (c) Firm belief into something for which there is no proof.

Some here think immediately of their personal religion when describing their faith(s) and I can understand that. However, Jerry has meant the nondenominational ("Faith has no denomination.") sense of faith, so I guess he leans towards the broadest definition (2, c) here with the understanding that it also covers (a) and (b).

(3) Something that is believed with strong conviction, esp. a system of religious beliefs.

Maybe some here prefer this definition, I don't know.

I do not believe into anything supernatural, so only a a few of these definitions cover my case. Jim Dixon has given my spontaneous response. Don't use 'faith' whenever it is possible to use more trustworthy information. So 'faith' isn't a word in my daily life, even in situations with uncertainties and weak knowledge. 'Possible', 'trust', 'probable', 'confident' 'convinced', even 'believe' would be my words, but never 'faith'.

Are there things I never questions in my life? Hardly any, though in a continuum of convictions with more or less potential for being altered some basic convictions come close to being unquestionable or at least unquestioned:

My trust in my closest friends and family, my conviction that we only have this planet for a long time to come and therefore we should leave it in a state that makes it habitable for our grandchildren and theirs, my belief that all humans have a right to be treated as such,...

But I do not see these beliefs as quasi religious beliefs, I rather see them as the most sense making options. I guess in my daily life decisions I'm hardly any different from Christians living around me. However, I came from a very different basic conviction. I would never call this set of convictions my faith, for I think there is more than no proof for their validity, but I could understand if someone else would use this word.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:15 AM

this thread has given me something new to think about.

i have always held the view that i don't believe in anything i haven't experienced. i'm not saying that i haven't had spiritual moments or experiences, but i haven't been able to feel anything in between to hang on to.

faith was something i felt i could never feel.

but the idea of patience is one i can understand.. i like it, and hope i can remember to cultivate this quality.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:07 AM

This conversation is going places I don't travel, but I would add a variation on the definitions offered above. The difference between faith and belief is that faith is the experience that results from a tightly held belief -- often one so closely held as to be invisible to the holder.

A belief held only in the mind, as an intellectual proposition, is not truly believed, but is only being thought.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 07:41 AM

Hey, Boab:

Thank you for the wonderful, thoughtful post. I have a son who is agnostic who I believe still has an open mind and heart. There are actually two Jesus's. One is on the pages of the book called the Bible. You can read all about him. The other Jesus is the one in my heart, and those who have come to know him as real, because they have a personal relationship with him. For those who know Jesus as being as real as this keyboard, there is no desire for reward for doing his Father's will. If you've had a wonderful friend, or family member, wife, husband or lover, you have a taste of what it is to know Jesus, and whether he fed a crowd of 5,000 with three fishes or 28 with 7 fishes is not the question. When you feel the love of someone, you want to give back to them, in return. The desire to do well is not for reward. It is done out of thanksgiving for what you have been given. Besides, you cannot earn your way into a presence with God after death. If you could, then there would have been no reason for Christ to die on the cross. God could just have said... "Go ahead, earn your own salvation, and good luck." And the doors of heaven could be welded shut.

Whether people believe in a Heaven were you wear golden slippers and streets of gold, have wings and play a harp (most of which isn't even in the bible) is not the issue either. Eternity and life after death is a tad difficult to fathom, so some people conceptualize it into something knowable for them.

As for miracles, I don't have to read about them in the bible. I see them, and not through hypnotists or magicians. I see miraculous cures
that defy any explanation, like the Mother of a friend of mine who went completely blind in one eye, saw every specialist in the area and was told her problem was inoperable and that she would never see out of that idea. She is a woman of great faith, and kept praying for a miracle. The day that she went in for a check-up and read the eye chart with her "blind" eye was not a story in a book, handed down orally for 60 years before someone wrote it down. It happened a year ago, and she came to hear my gospel quartet at our annual Anniversary concert, her sight miraculously restored.

The difference between faith and belief (and they are sometimes used interchangeably) is that you have faith in a power greater than yourself, and you trust that power with your life, while belief is something you think is true. There have to be clearer dictionary definitions than that, but I don't live my life according to Webster.
I have faith in God because in my mind and heart I know he is real. I don't just "believe" he's real. I feel His presence and see Him working in my life and others.

These discussions are wonderful, and I am really enjoying reading about everyone's faith. If this thread was titled Belief, then we could all argue about how many fishes Christ fed the multitudes, or whether he actually walked on water. Or whether there is such a thing as reincarnation, and what heaven looks like. Those arguments are not meaningful in the long run, because you can't get someone to have faith by arguing with them. And they aren't at the heart of the issue. Faith is one on one, or nothing. It's not something you can give to someone else. It profoundly changes the way that you live. Not all people who "get" religion get Faith. Faith is evidenced in a person by their fruits. "Belief" doesn't necessarily change you, but faith does. I believe the sun is going to rise tomorrow, but that doesn't change who I am or the way that I live.

Sorry for being so long-winded, Boab. I didn't start this thread as a forum for talking about my own faith. I really am interested in hearing about others... including you. Your posting was just so thought-provoking that I was moved to respond to it at length.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 03:56 AM

I never intended to be sucked into any religious or pseudo-religious discourse. Just so that my philosophy is known, I do not have faith in the existence of "God" as He/She is proclaimed in the bible. I do not deny such existence; I just DON'T KNOW. As far as the O.T. "God" is concerned, I hold the opinion that many of the events and activities attributed to him were anything but "good"; in fact, just the opposite. That Jesus Christ existed and was indeed an outstanding human being I have no doubt. Following His example in our own lives can be no bad thing. Having said that, I cannot believe in "virgin birth". Which brings us to some of the events described in the new testament as "miracles". That the disciples saw Jesus walking on the water I can belive; that He actually DID, I do NOT believe.That a multitude considered themselves fed with five loaves and three wee fishes, I can also believe; I do NOT believe that they really WERE fed! Which brings us too to the power of Faith. Such Faith was engendered in the minds and hearts of men and women by this man Jesus that he put scenes and events before them which they forevermore swore swore to be real, and stated them to be so without a trace of duplicity or intent to deceive. The written records of their experiences has given Faith to millions of human beings--a faith unfortunately distorted and cruelly exploited by charlatans down thro' history. If Jesus was destined to be nailed to the cross for the sins of humanity, then a cursory glance at the horrific machinations of self-proclaimed "Christians" down the centuries from Rome thro' Calvinist Europe, presbyterian and catholic Ireland to the Armageddon maniacs of the American Southt, surely points to the truth for those who genuinel;y believe in the meaning of His crucifixion; He has been hanging there suffering for over two thousand years.
I think my "Faith " in much of biblical prophecy and "miracle" working finally became rationalised [can't think of a better word-]
when I saw a wee lad climb up a rigid rope and disappear at the top. I SAW that happen, but I know it didn't. Like the disciples who saw the Man walk on the water, or those who felt well-fed by three wee fishes. I was convinced by a hypnotist. The same thing happened, I think, to the folk of the bible. Having complete faith in the source of persuaion leads to perceived "miracles". Not always a bad thing---but not always good, either. If the human mind is rid of all fear, and asked to perform some feat or other,some miraculous result can ensue. Let's say---a three-inch broad "I"-beam rigidly connected by supports and suspended forty feet in the air; let's see the untrained person who can walk along its fifty foot length without breaking their neck! Now, set that same beam just as rigidly on a flat and level concrete floor. Get the same folks to walk along it---no trouble at all! They have faith, y'see --and with good reason---that there is no danger, and fear disappears, taking with it the tendency to fall off the beam.
To those who have absolute faith in their god, and who see Him as One who has Love for all, I envy all of you. To those who choose to worship a "divinity" for the reason that they think they will be rewarded by a "place in Heaven" , I do NOT envy you; I hold you in contempt as being of the hordes who will do no good unless there is personal reward at the end of it.
My hobbyhorse is tired---g'night!

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: NobleSavage
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 03:15 AM

First, a question: What is the difference between faith and belief?

Next, I think there is a difference between religious faith and secular faith.

I do not claim knowledge of religious faith, so I leave that for those who do.

Such faith as I can know I have rests on my own ability and willingness to find the truth of the world around me, and be faithful to my own values.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM

That's an interesting example you give, Jim. Unless you open the parachute after you jump, there is no way you can be 100% sure that it will open. You don't know that as an irrefutable fact. You have yo have faith in the reliability of the parachute.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: ranger1
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:07 PM

Faith is believing in something outside myself that I have no control over. I sleep better at night knowing that the sun will rise, natural selection is in full swing, that the universe is expanding, that my partner's love for me knows no bounds, that people are, for the most part, kind.

That said, faith is also believing in myself. In my ability to be the best person I can be, to live up to my potential and to live life to the fullest, but without treading on others to do so.

Faith is trust. Faith is believing that if I treat others the way I myself wish to be treated, that they in turn will do the same. That if I reach out, someone will be there to take my hand. That if someone reaches out to me, I will have the strength to take their hand, no matter what.

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:49 PM

Doug,

Well, if you want GWB to be yer God and have faith that GWB will bless you every day, fine...

I'll stick with my "Big Guy", thankee...

Yeah, Jerry,

Your will, not mine....

Good 'un...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:05 PM

Jim:

While it depends very much on semantics, I see little difference between the great certainty that physics will continue to operate and the great certainty that the universe will continue to unfold in certain meaningful ways. Can you describe the difference, exactly?
I don't mean to be a wise guy. I am asking seriously.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:36 PM

Faith sometimes has value, but faith is a poor substitute for knowledge.

If you are going to jump out of an airplane, would you rather have faith that your parachute is going to open, or know that your parachute is going to open?

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:35 PM

Mixing faith and politics is not recommended. When your life is looking bleak and hopeless, who you gonna call? Certainly not a politician..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 03:37 PM

Interesting post Mick. Isn't "the right thing" dependent on one's point of view though?

Example: I have faith in GWB and think he did the right thing by removing Saddam from power. Others have no faith in GWB and think he was wrong to remove Saddam. Different points of view as to what the "right thing" was.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:58 PM

Remember the rock band, Blind Faith?

:-)

Clearly, our faith is correct, and other's who don't agree with us have blind faith. Truth is, we are all prone to confusing our own will with the power of another person or entity's. I sure have done it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:52 PM

Interesting post Mick. Doesn't doing the right thing, though, depend on one's pov?

I have faith in GWB, for example, and that he did the right thing by invading Iraq. Others have no faith in him and think it was the wrong thing to do. Different points of view. Who is to say who is right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:43 PM

Hey Bobert:

I think it was brucie who told me this one... a prayer to the Lord. "Dear God, grant me patience, and will you hurry up about it?"

You want a tough one? How about "Your will, not mine."

Whoeeee!!!!!!!!!!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Pied Piper
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:28 PM

Things have meaning because they have meaning. You did not "choose" to give meaning to anything evolution invented meaning and it is built in to all the organisms of the biosphere.
This absolutist relativism is un-founded.
Do you think that I and the other organisms on this planet are a figment of your imagination?
The existence of other entities is implicit in all language including animal language.        
The meaning of life is to live.
Faith usually means believing in things for which there is no evidence.
I'm not an atheist I just don't believe in God, Father Christmas, the tooth fairy and lots of other evidence-less propositions.
If you mean by faith the drive to get up in the morning and enjoy living in social interaction with other people and learning, then I have faith just like the faith of Tigers and Gazelles.

Sum ergo cogito.

TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Faith
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:21 PM

I believe that God works in our lives and blesses us in small and not so small ways. He speaks to us and helps us make decisions which lead us to even more blessings. This is where Faith come in for me. I have the utmost Faith that He, not only has He done this going back to when I was 6 years old and very sick with polio, but will contiune to do so today and for all my tomorrows. His guiding hand doesn't go un-noticed or unappreciated...

Fir me, one of the strongest allies of Faith is patience. Gos has time tables for me and those are in His hands. That's probably the most difficult aspect of Faith but it indeed very much part of Faith.

Good thoughtful thread, Brother Jerry and...

Love to you and Ruth...

Brother Bobert