BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 10:29 AM

When Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 09:39 AM

Ah, the bad penny has turned up on cue!   Bobad, old bean, even if every one of those things was a big lie (and none of them are, of course), it STILL wouldn't constitute antisemitism, because we are NOT saying those things were done by Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS, or because that's what Jews do, or because it's in their blood. Those things were done by devious, power-mad, dishonest, racist politicians. Such people are found all over the world, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, atheists and none of the above. You wouldn't know a lie if one reared up and bit your arse. After all, you lived one for years as an anonymous, sniping coward yet still show no shame in turning up here to say stupid things.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 08:30 AM

killing hundreds of children in Gaza, carrying out massacres in Lebanon, stealing the best Palestinian land for settlements, building an apartheid wall that cuts Palestinians' farms in half and the Arab citizens of Israel as second-class.

Anyone who perpetuates such despicable lies about Israel in order to demonize her is an anti-Semite.........period, full stop, no ifs, ands or buts about it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 07:33 AM

treating the Arab citizens

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 07:28 AM

The terminology I use is "apologists for the Israeli regime." That does not mean "Jews." That does not mean "people who oppose Hamas." That does not mean "people who defend Israel's right to exist." That does not mean "people who feel sorry for ordinary Israelis whose leaders and allies are imposing insecurity on them." It means people who seek to justify even the worst excesses of the Israeli regime, such as killing hundreds of children in Gaza, carrying out massacres in Lebanon, stealing the best Palestinian land for settlements, building an apartheid wall that cuts Palestinians' farms in half and the Arab citizens of Israel as second-class. On the few occasions I've used the term "Israel apologists" it's because I'm responding directly to equivalent terminology in your posts. I am not going to resort to pedantry every time. Life's too short. Now you know bloody well what I mean and always have, but, if you've forgotten, this post will clear it up. Now stop being so bloody dishonest. As for dismissing people's views on antisemitism, yes I do dismiss people's views that are not predicated on the proper definition, which is very simple: if you attack Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS, you are antisemitic. I dismiss views predicated on a false brand of antisemitism that says you can't criticise the actions of the Israeli state. I don't care whether you think that's antisemitic just because I don't happen to criticise everybody else in the same way at the same time. That is just childish. The aim of your preferred definition is to prevent criticism of the actions of the Israeli state. That is incredibly dishonest and yes I dismiss it out of hand. Now you don't deserve this explanation, so just clear off, will you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 16 - 03:59 AM

You liar. I repeat: the term I use is APOLOGISTS FOR THE ISRAELI REGIME.

I do not lie.
You said of them, "Because they are both Israel apologists. What's your problem?"

You still have not produced anything to justify any of those quoted being apologists for the Israeli regime anyway. Sadiq Khan? The entire NEC?

You still have not said why that would mean their views on antisemitism should be dismissed either.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 02:38 PM

You liar. I repeat: the term I use is APOLOGISTS FOR THE ISRAELI REGIME. Personally, I am an Israel apologist, in the sense that I have no desire to see "Israel wiped off the map" and that I want the ordinary people of Israel, Jews and non-Jews alike, to have the peace, security and prosperity that their leaders and their misguided American allies deny them. I've said this here so many times. So why don't you just sod off with your nasty misrepresentations.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 12:30 PM

Steve,
So what are YOUR personal experiences of antisemitism in Labour that make you qualified to tell me who's more informed than whom?

Well Steve, you have been a member for a few months, and the people I have been quoting have been working in the Party for most or all of their adult lives.
I do not dismiss people's views because you claim they are Israel apologists, which you refuse to justify, and which is anyway a non sequitur.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 12:18 PM

Labour Bullying.
Letter in Thursday's Guardian from over a hundred Party workers.
"Intolerable attacks on Labour party staff"
"As former and retired members of Labour party staff, we object in the strongest possible terms to the way in which current party staff are being publicly attacked by some senior members and their supporters. Labour party staff are hard-working, dedicated individuals committed to the party and its objectives. They work long hours and are often required to spend weeks or even months away from home on particular campaigns. Some are on limited-term contracts with little job security. The nature of these jobs means that they are often required to implement unpopular or difficult national decisions in an organisation that is almost entirely voluntary and in which different views and opinions are strongly held.

Despite this, staff remain completely loyal to the party and to their employers, and the least they are entitled to expect is some loyalty and respect in return. To hear members of the Labour party attack their own employees is depressing; to hear talk about "clearing them out" is unacceptable; to hear such statements from the most senior level is intolerable."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 11:29 AM

If you deplore bullying and intimidation in the Tory party, then let's see you expend as many words on it now as you have on Labour's (still only alleged, and only by apologists for the Israeli regime) antisemitism. Even though the report is a bit of a Tory oil-on-troubled-waters job, makes tough reading, doesn't it? Think I'd rather be in a party containing a few people who open their big gobs before engaging the brain than in a party in which there was sexual intimidation and bullying from an already-known bully boy which was ignored by the top brass and lied about by Shapps. And that's only the bits the Tory report has told us about. Speaks volumes that the lad's parents wanted nothing to do with it. Oh, then there's our racist buffoon at the foreign office, of course. And don't mention those underage gay sex parties...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 10:48 AM

an overtly liberal/left commentary outlet "


What you, Professor, fail to understanand is that what passes for much of "the left" in the U.S. is pretty much the equivalent of the more progressive "Rockefeller Republicans" of days of yore.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 10:06 AM

Steve,
And you don't always quote from the "left-wing press" (who are they, anyway - certainly not the Huffington Post)

My quotes on this have been from Guardian, Labour List, Independent, Daily Mirror and the HP.
"The Huffington Post was launched on May 9, 2005 as an overtly liberal/left commentary outlet "

I deplore bullying and intimidation in Tory Party as well, and note that the person was permanently expelled from the Party, unlike any of the Labour antisemites.

The suicide's father described the report as a whitewash, but the Guardian on Thursday said,
"Read beyond the headlines, and Wednesday's report is quietly damning. "

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 09:43 AM

Keith probably thinks the Murdoch press is moderately centre-left. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 09:37 AM

the Murdoch press

We've got our own problems with that this side of the pond too, tha knows.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 08:35 AM

WHAT! A Tory-commissioned report into Tory misbehaviour being described as a whitewash? NEVER! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

..........Keith.....?   😂😂😂


(Jaysus, I've busted it again. Is the corset shop still open? 😂😂😂)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 08:20 AM

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/tatler-tory-bullying-scandal-report-grieving-father-dismisses-findings-as-whitewash/ar-BBvJDui

Hmmm tried again still wouldn't work, try copy and pasting the above

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 08:05 AM

Oops - I can't get that link to work. Perhaps the Tories have spun it away! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 07:11 AM

Tory Turmoil

I wonder what our usual suspects will have to say about this report

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 05:37 AM

So what are YOUR personal experiences of antisemitism in Labour that make you qualified to tell me who's more informed than whom? Do you also think that victims should be in charge of prison sentences - after all, judges and juries only hear the stories second-hand, rather like you and me with regard to Labour's alleged antisemitism, as it happens? 😂 And you don't always quote from the "left-wing press" (who are they, anyway - certainly not the Huffington Post). All you bring to these discussions is right-wing bias, which you're perfectly entitled to do of course, and blind pro-Israeli regime bigotry. That's all OK too, but don't do it then deny that you've done it!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 16 - 04:31 AM

Steve,
Keith is a typical right-winger who relishes the Tory press

I am not right wing and always quote from the Left Wing press,like the HP.

I think the opinions of Jewish members on antisemitism within the Party are based on experience of it ands much better better informed than yours, which you are never able to substantiate anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 16 - 09:06 PM

Greg, Keith is a typical right-winger who relishes the Tory press and who hates the Labour Party. Like most of the far right who have been fed this demonise-Labour stuff by the Mail, the Murdoch press and the apologists for the Israeli regime (and hey, Greg, just watch how Keith is going to misquote THAT!), he's been taken in hook, line and sinker by the manipulators of the far right. In fact, he probably thinks he's one of them himself! Still, with a man who will tell you that he's really moderately centre-right and is merely putting Israel's side of the story (which means condemning all criticism of the Israeli regime as antisemitic via a document that was never adopted, whilst at the same time defending mass murder), well what can you do!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 16 - 09:14 AM

Not everyone believes the "cancer of antisemitism" Has been eradicated from The Labour Party<.I>

Not "everyone" believes the earth is round, Profesor.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 16 - 06:09 AM

Quite frankly, and you know it full well, the term "cancer of antisemitism" as applied to Labour is totally inappropriate. You should be ashamed of yourself for choosing that quote, as should the person who said it. In fact, he should be suspended from the party in my opinion. If he disagrees with the enquiry report there are far better ways than that of expressing his view.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 16 - 03:40 AM

Not everyone believes the "cancer of antisemitism" Has been eradicated from The Labour Party

Huffington Post Monday,
"Jewish Labour members who voted overwhelmingly to nominate Owen Smith in the upcoming leadership election were motivated by Jeremy Corbyn's response to allegations of anti-Semitism in the party, a former shadow cabinet minister has said.

Lilian Greenwood blamed the current party leadership for Corbyn mustering just 4% of the vote from Jewish Labour Movement.

The JLM has been a Labour affiliated organisations since 1920 and announced the result of its ballot on who to back for party leader this morning. The group has more than 1,500 members, 58.9% of whom responded to the poll."

"Councillor Joe Goldberg, the JLM's local government officer, also said that Smith's replacement of Corbyn as leader would "eradicate" the "cancer" of anti-Semitism from Labour. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-lilian-greenwood-antisemitism_uk_57b1aeade4b01f97d8f31235

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 07:24 PM

"Your claim that it was typical Labour bullying and intimidation is no better than mine that the whole thing is jumped-up nonsense invented by embittered Blairites."

You mean apart fro the fact that the situation was so bad that the Merseyside Police said that they could not guarantee anybody's safety at CLP meetings and Labour's NEC decided to suspend Wallasey CLP? And it still remains suspended - sound like "jumped-up nonsense" to you?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 01:39 PM

And back to your attempted Wallasey smear (second attempt as my post didn't take). Nobody knows who put the brick through the window. Could have been a pissed Tory for all we know (though there aren't many Tories in Wallasey so maybe you've got me there 😂😂😂). The proceedings at the meeting that caused the trouble are still disputed. Your claim that it was typical Labour bullying and intimidation is no better than mine that the whole thing is jumped-up nonsense invented by embittered Blairites. As neither you nor I was there, why don't we give that one a rest until the facts emerge. Oh, of course, I forgot. Labour always whitewashes everything like that. Not like those spin-free Tories with their underage gay sex parties and their head-office bullying that drives people to suicide. Nah, don't believe a word of it! Canonise the Tories, demonise Labour!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 01:31 PM

Name them in that case. There was, er, Naz Shah, who made her comments years ago, before she was elected, Ken Livingstone, definitely a Labour man slightly before the three-quidders lined up... Come off it, Teribus, the bloody thing blew up almost before the three-quidders got a look-in. Name names if you know any different. Which you don't, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:12 PM

"Not one of the alleged antisemitism culprits was a £3 member"

And you know this how Shaw? As your pal Jom would say that statement is unqualified so it is unreliable.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 11:32 AM

Not that things were all that hot before. Shall we chat about Tower Hamlets and Mr Rahman?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 11:31 AM

"Started all the problems?" Not one of the alleged antisemitism culprits was a £3 member. Try to tell the truth for once.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 11:24 AM

Greg F. - 17 Aug 16 - 10:11 AM

Ah that explains a great deal "." - I can see plainly now that you do have tremendous problems with the English language in terms of reading it, writing it and understanding it. So great are your difficulties you don't even understand the things that you yourself have written.

"Well hundreds of thousands of people, including lots of Jews, who knows, not only didn't resign but even moved in the opposite direction." - Shaw

And with that movement came the "new" £3 members from the hard left that started causing all the problems. This has all really just kicked-off since Corbyn, "The Leader", took charge hasn't it?

Status of Wallasey Constituency Labour Party Shaw - found out yet from your pals in Labour's NEC yet?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 10:18 AM

"Another woman revealed her Jewish friends resigned the day he became leader, because they didn't believe it was "safe" for them stay. "

Well hundreds of thousands of people, including lots of Jews, who knows, not only didn't resign but even moved in the opposite direction. As for "feeling safe," how safe was it at the Tory central office when bullying and sexual assault was taking place almost under the noses of Cameron et al? Didn't seem that it was especially safe for the person who committed suicide, did it?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 10:11 AM

that you have to seek clarification from "three year olds"?

So you admit that you ARE a three-ear-old. Thanks for the confirmation.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 10:07 AM

Having so much trouble with the English language Greg F. (Or could I just call you ".") that you have to seek clarification from "three year olds"?

1: "A young Labour member told the Labour leader she would feel more comfortable going to Conservative party conference as a Labour supporter, than going to Labour conference as an Owen Smith supporter."

In this case fear of intimidation and abuse from pro-Corbyn "Momentum" supporters.

2: "Another woman revealed her Jewish friends resigned the day he became leader, because they didn't believe it was "safe" for them stay."

In this fear of abuse from anti-Semitic, Hamas and Hezbollah supporting members of "momentum".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 10:00 AM

Greg, they have been subject to intimidation and threats.
Google the text supplied by Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 09:47 AM

they didn't believe it was "safe" for them stay.

"Safe" from WHAT, fer chrissakes???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 09:45 AM

Apologies all I forgot this one - Labour Party Youth Conference - due to the number of "unpleasant" and "unacceptable incidents" this too is now subject to an NEC Investigation - yer man appears to be doing well with his investigations just a pity the culprits aren't being named, shamed and expelled.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 09:41 AM

"Jeremy Corbyn was this morning confronted by two female Labour members who said they no longer feel "safe" in the party.

A young Labour member told the Labour leader she would feel more comfortable going to Conservative party conference as a Labour supporter, than going to Labour conference as an Owen Smith supporter.

Another woman revealed her Jewish friends resigned the day he became leader, because they didn't believe it was "safe" for them stay.

It came during a heated debate between the Labour leader and his leadership rival Mr Smith, who launched a fresh attack on Mr Corbyn for failing to crack down on anti-Semitic and misogynistic abuse within the Labour Party."

Now who are they "apologists" for Shaw?

Tell me Shaw Has the Wallasey Constituency Labour Party been suspended by Labour's NEC or hasn't it? The answer in case of the usual evasion from Shaw is that yes it has. Why it has been suspended is because of complaints of homophobic abuse and intimidation.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 08:56 AM

Steve,
I did not talk about "Israel apologists"

Yes you did!
You said of them, "Because they are both Israel apologists. What's your problem?"

the EUMC does not exist

The European Parliamentary Working Group on Antisemitism DOES.

the working definition was trashed years ago,

No. It was adopted by The European Parliamentary Working Group on Antisemitism, and can be seen on their website (as you know).

Or did you dig around to find whichever apologists you could for the Israeli regime

No. I never considered Israel to be relevant to a thread about Labour Party!
I quoted many prominent Labour worthies, including Sadiq Khan and the entire NEC who can not be described as apologists for anyone!

Can you find me one who thinks that Labour is riddled with antisemitism

No, and no-one claimed it was.
Just that it had a serious problem with antisemitism, requiring 50 suspensions, two Party inquiries and a Parliamentary inquiry.

we, the NEC, are appalled at thIs rampant Labour antisemitism?

I gave you a quote saying they were appalled by recent incidents of it within the Party.

Or were they appalled, or deeply concerned, that these allegations had arisen

No. The were appalled by recent incidents of antisemitism within the Party.

Or do you think that the NEC were judge, jury and executioner,

Well, they made that judgements that recent incidents of antisemitism within the party were appalling.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 08:24 AM

Do feel free to expand on that puzzling addendum to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 07:29 AM

Was it "Labour Worthies" who suspended Wallasey CLP? And that is not the only one is it?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 05:11 AM

"I quoted many Labour worthies appalled by Labour antisemitism."

Did you really now? Or did you dig around to find whichever apologists you could for the Israeli regime (of whom there are many in the Labour Party, unfortunately) who expressed concern at the allegations or who had a crack at individual alleged culprits? Can you find me one who thinks that Labour is riddled with antisemitism in order to justify your new mini-slogan "Labour antisemitism?" Can you give me a quote to the effect that "we, the NEC, are appalled at thIs rampant Labour antisemitism?" Or were they appalled, or deeply concerned, that these allegations had arisen and were determined to investigate them? Or do you think that the NEC were judge, jury and executioner, just like you, even before an enquiry was held?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 04:08 AM

All you did in your 06.10pm post was repeat the same old lies. I did not talk about "Israel apologists" and I do not assert that anyone of whatever persuasion is not entitled to express an opinion. What's more, the EUMC does not exist and the working definition was trashed years ago, points repeatedly made to you. No good keep asking people to address your points when you routinely ignore them when they do.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 03:43 AM

Why? Identify something I have said that is wrong, if you can!
Pick my worst blooper, why don't you?
Good luck with that Greg, or just stick to gratuitous, personal attack as you can manage that.
Any bullying school kid can.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 09:13 PM

Take that nap, Professor, it'll do you good.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:29 PM

What you say is rubbish, Professor, and attempting to respond to it, as such, is an excercise in futility

No-one will be convinced by that pathetic excuse Greg.
If you could challenge what I say, you would.
The FACT is that you can't, so you resort to personal attack (which REALLY IS an exercise in futility), and weak and unbelievable excuses such as you have just given.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:24 PM

No need to keep digging Rag.
You have buried yourself!

DESIblitz | UK's Award Winning British Asian Web Magazine.
Are they racists Rag?

"Six Asian Women MPs elected in UK"
http://www.desiblitz.com/content/six-asian-women-mps-elected-in-uk

Many were born in UK not Asia, e.g. Maryam Khan, Labour.
It is not racist to describe them as Asian, born in Asia or not.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:16 PM

having no answer to what I actually say.

What you say is rubbish, Professor, and attempting to respond to it, as such, is an excercise in futility.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 07:11 PM

From the professor

"Yes she is. You originally claimed it made me racist to describe her as Pakistani"

I don't think I've ever made such a statement.

I don't think I've ever described you as a racist in relation to Alibhai-Brown.


In relation to Sadiq Khan, oh yes, definitely a racist, no question about that.

However keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 06:51 PM

No need to worry about me Greg, I am just fine thanks.
I notice that you also resort to the personal, having no answer to what I actually say.