BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 06:01 PM

Mousethief - GfS was not saying that Bush passed a health care bill. She was quite clearly saying that Bobert would not say of ANY bill that was passed by the Bush administration that "a BAD bill is better than no bill at all"

Well maybe there was no bill passed by the Bush administration that Bobert thought should have been passed at all? Those of us who think that health care reform was long overdue (still is) were happy to see SOMETHING get passed. Those of us who enjoy our freedoms weren't happy to see the Patriot Act get passed, whether it was a good or bad version.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 05:56 PM

That's because they go where the labour is cheapest. It's another way of getting rich(er).


Mousethief - GfS was not saying that Bush passed a health care bill. She was quite clearly saying that Bobert would not say of ANY bill that was passed by the Bush administration that "a BAD bill is better than no bill at all". And she's not defending Bush in so saying. She has criticized Bush and the Republicans as strenuously as she criticizes Obama and the Democrats. She is saying it, I think, to remind Bobert that may be getting caught up in the usual American dilemma: the great bipartisan struggle which dictates that one must always support one of those phony parties, no matter what, and always demonize the other, no matter what. To do that is not to think, but merely to react in a repetitive and predictable manner. One should be able to criticize either party when it misbehaves, and they both misbehave a great deal. I prefer the Democrats to the Republicans (and always have), but I am extremely disappointed in how they caved in to the health insurance industry and allowed that health care bill to be eviscerated by the lobbyists. I'm also extremely disappointed in their continuation of the Afghan war and their general policy in the Middle East. Do I think the Republicans would do even worse? Yeah, most likely they would. But it's the Democrats who are doing it now, so they deserve some criticism for it, in my opinion. You don't deserve to get a free ride just because you are NOT the Republicans... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 02:07 PM

Inheritence is rather common. Perhaps some worked hard for enourmous sums of cash and some didn't. Its unusual for you to paint with a broad brush..
. But anyway thats not the issue.

The issue is that enhancing wealth for the wealthy does not put as much money into the economy as middle class spending.
Special benefits for the rich only serve to slow an economic recovery since the rich will generally save/hoard money. The wealthy may want to trade up to a better yacht but generally they have alreaady spent on the big ticket items for a lifetime.

Don;t bother to say they will generate more jobs. I agree but those jobs are mostly for China and India.

ECONOMIC PATRIOTISM is a movement encourage the rich to make jobs in America, which they have been loath to do for 25 years.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 01:58 PM

So, Bobert, a BAD bill is better than no bill at all????
Too bad you didn't think that was true about Bush's efforts.

Bush passed a health care bill?

It would be heaven for anyone with an annual income above $8,000,000 a year.

And those with such incomes have worked very hard to make it, and keep it, so.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 01:47 PM

It would be heaven for anyone with an annual income above $8,000,000 a year.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 12:57 PM

I think it's possible, Bobert, that Obama had genuine intentions (prior to being elected, I mean) of doing something to provide decent health care coverage for people. He may be a real idealist when it comes to that. Or....maybe it was just a clever campaign ploy by the Democrats to get votes. I don't know. Whichever it was, he was unable to realize the promise of that ideal effectively after getting elected, because the corporate lobbying against it was too powerful. So he ended up with a badly botched and feeble attempt at reforming health care, but he avoided a total defeat which would have pretty much killed his presidency.

GfS - I agree with what you say. Governments would like us to believe that solutions can only come from them, because that secures their power and keeps the public quite helpless. And they work in collusion with the banks and corporations, each washing the other's dirty laundry, and marketing to the lobotomized public. True enough.

On the other hand, governments are inevitable. We cannot have modern societies without governments of some kind in place. We just need far better governments in place than what we presently have. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen, though...because the odds against it happening are enormous. I know that my future depends entirely on me, and that I can't expect much of anything from the government, because that would be like expecting it from Santa Claus.

Anyway, you are essentially correct. The Emperor has no clothes. And he is desperately in need of a bath too. And he should probably be arrested and charged with treason. ;-)   (I'm not referring to Mr Obama, specifically when I say that...I'm referring to the entire ruling system and BOTH the Democratic and Republican Parties. Obama's just the latest presidential "face" the ruling system has put in front of itself like a mask...something for the people to focus on so they don't notice the beast that stands behind it.)

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 12:09 PM

So, Bobert, a BAD bill is better than no bill at all????



Too bad you didn't think that was true about Bush's efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 11:43 AM

Ya'll's readin' gone down hill... What I said was, yeah, this somewhat lackin' legislation certainly has winners and loosers in it... That's not my point... Those came from the screwed up fillibuster rule...

What I am askin', that no one want's to acknowledge, is which Big Boy Lobbying firm was pushing the Dems to take this on in the ***first place***??? That is the issue here... Not how a dysfunctional legislative body passed such an imperfect bill... Or who will benefit...

That's where I give the Dems a thumbs up... They could have just done the Rope-a-Dope goin' into the midterms and probably would be better off... They knew in pushing this bill that they would pay a price... That, my friends, deserves some level of respect even if you hate the bill...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Sep 10 - 02:52 AM

Little Hawk: "What "health care reform" turned into, Bobert, was a financial windfall for the private health insurance industry,....."

I argued that very point, in here, when the bill was coming up for a vote.

Yes, a GOOD health care bill WOULD HAVE BEEN great....but this hokey re-incarnation of the remnant of a 'heath care' bill,is more destructive both to our FREEDOMS, and probably not too great for your health, as well!

Little Hawk, I read the link you posted...very interesting. I thank you for it! It's just another confirmation, of what I've been thinking, and expressing on here...but, alas, usually on deaf ears.

In an earlier post, I mentioned that we had a great system, and you sorta took exception to that. I think you misunderstood what I meant. The key word was 'HAD'. The system was originally founded to insure our FREEDOMS from tyranny, and guaranteed personal FREEDOMS, as long as ones 'WILL' did not infringe on another's RIGHTS. When I look out there, both business and Government do exactly that!..Impose their 'wills' on our 'rights' ...though the game they use, is to make it sound as if our 'rights' are granted by them! Our rights, inalienable rights, are given to us by 'Our Creator'..not by government, not by corporations, and certainly NOT by the lies perpetuated by both, to give us the 'illusion' that they are the givers, and not the takers(away)!! However, the baiting enticements that they dangle in front of us, are designed to have us RELINQUISH our personal freedoms, in trade for some 'benefit' that we didn't really need, due to the fact, that we give up personal responsibility, and that includes, the responsibility, to not have ALLOWED, through compromise, this whole mess, to get out of control...OUR control. They offer lame solutions, for the mess they created in the first place, then 'sugar coat' it, and make it sound as if, they are insuring us of a new extension of some 'right'!...Its ALL bullshit!! ..and the more they are exposed, the more desperate they become..hence, the 'squeeze' is even MORE upon us!

Those who subscribe to the obsolete notion, that a 'party' can fix it, are living in the past, and CANNOT see the problems accurately, because they spin both the problems, and spin a hard sell an yet, another, ..you guessed it,..'solution'. That goes for health care, the borders, energy, employment, or UN-employment, marriage, families, morality, and the very 'trends' of our culture(past tense). We have become scroungers, for what little is left...AND THAT IS BY DESIGN!!! They want the 'only solution' to be recognized, and to be looked for, is themselves!....That is one big FAT lie! I don't believe it, some of you don't believe it, and others are waiting for an epiphany...but until they get it, well, I guess we have to endure more of the party's line rhetoric!..from both sides.

And that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it....
..unless, of course, THE CREATOR slaps me upside my head, and tells me different. One thing for sure, the truth, cannot be trusted, coming from the body politic! All we get, is 'stereo politicians speaking from both sides of their mouth'!! <<<(original, copyrighted line).

OK, enough rant, for now......

Yo-Ho!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM

Just as a reminder, Bobert, here's an article by Michael Moore from shortly before the bill passed:

Obama's phony health care reform

Now, remember, Michael Moore was a very enthusiastic supporter of Barack Obama. He fought hard to get Obama elected, but he was bitterly disappointed by what the health care bill mutated into, and he explains it quite clearly.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:04 PM

What "health care reform" turned into, Bobert, was a financial windfall for the private health insurance industry, and they ARE one of the "Big Boys". This is how you take the public's hunger for real change and turn it into a quasi-change that simply improves the position of the elites who benefited from the previous system that was in place...that is, the private health insurers.

Pretty much smoke and mirrors as far as I can see. Obama had to bring in some sort of new health plan, because he made it the centerpiece of his campaign....so the corporate elites worked on that legislation with their lobbying power until it was fashioned in a way that suited them, while the rest of the developed world, most of which already has universal single-payer health insurance, watched in utter amazement, dumfounded at the reactionary forces at play in America.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:59 PM

Corrupt, GfinS??? Well, yeah... I never said it wasn't...

What I have been arguing is that after 30 years of twiddle-dee-twiddle-dum I'm seein a crack between the two parties...

I mean, just which Big Boy pushed the Dems to take on health care reform??? Far as I can see there weren't any... Yeah, okay, becausw the legislation went thru so many changes some companies will benefit but...

...best I know the Dems did this because they thought it was the correct thing to do... That shows me some courage and when I hear Dems speak they are talkin' about ideas these days... This is a departure from twiddle-dee-twiddle-dum...

That is my only point here...

Where are the Repubs ideas??? Same place as Richard Nixon's "Secret Plan" for Vietnam???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:10 PM

Obama is a little disappointing; I think more was expected from a man trained in the Daly machine.
We could do worse.
And we may find out in 2012.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 05:48 PM

Obama's an interesting man, Donuel. He's clearly very intelligent. It isn't Obama himself that worries me so much, it's the system he must now work within that worries me.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:46 PM

LH Chongo and relations,

It is important to remember that Barak Obama is ordinary folks.
He had an extrordinary mother and grand parents and he has had an extraordinary rise to great heights, but he is ordinary folks.

He has been compelled to seek a centrist position as a populist president but I believe as president he is as sympathetic to the middle class as FDR and T. Roosevelt.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:37 PM

ALl right, LH. As for Shane, I am sure it only took him ten minutes to "master" wanking, but that's not the sort of skill I meant.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 02:11 PM

I'm saying, Amos, that the system as it exists now is founded upon the pursuit of money and power for their own sake, and it's been that way for quite a long time. Lincoln saw it happening in the 1860s and he was extremely concerned about it, but he could not prevent it from occurring. The big business people took over, and the principles that people like Jefferson fought so hard for fell by the wayside. Major labour unions have been corrupted by the same process, as they became big businesses too, out for what they could get, regardless of consequence.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 02:00 PM

"It takes ten thousand hours of trial and practice to master something, and that's for a known field."

Flip me! I don't know where you get yer flippin' numbers from, Amos, but you are, like, WAY off, eh? It only took me, like, a coupla hours prackise to, like, totally master openin' them old stile beer bottles with my teeth. No word of a lie, man. The trouble is, though, mosta the new bottles have them tops that come off real easy so it ain't no challenge at all enny more. Even a major looser and total wimp can do it now. Too bad, eh?

- Shane

p.s. I am back. Time to flippin' cleberate, man!

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:59 PM

The system was NOT founded on the principle of power for its own sake. The clearer headed among the first two generations of leaders in this country fought like mad to AVOID the system or parties, the central bank, and the rest of it. They understood human greed and craven longings for power and tried to legislate against those things.

Unfortunately, every time you pass a law against "stupid", someone comes up with a new version of "stupider".


A

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:55 PM

Right. ;-) So you are suggesting that I grab the bull by the mungoberries, figuratively speaking, and charge out and make my mark in the world, Amos? Well, hey, not a bad idea. ;-)

However, why should my philosophical musings about society be termed "bitching and moaning"? That is harsh, sir, harsh. ;-) After all, we all have the right to muse a little about the imperfections of society and to regret the lost innocence of youth, don't we?

As for the "conspiracy" thing, I'm not talking about a conspiracy, Amos. I'm talking about a system that is broken merely because it's been founded on very shaky principles, namely the pursuit of money and power for their own sake. That eventually leads to serious trouble. It leads to the kind of corruption that resulted in responses like the French, American, Chinese, Cuban, and Russian revolutions.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:34 PM

It is not about a fortunate event. It takes ten thousand hours of trial and practice to master something, and that's for a known field. If you are cutting into the unknown and trying to reduce leading-edge theory to commercial success, I would guess twice that.

And if you misjudge the important things--like how the marketplace will react when you DO get there--you lose out. If you get your throat cut by sponges, moochers, criminal takers or fakers, it costs you heavily. You can starve to death on the trail and also lose your pay, as the song says.

But making things happen is a peculiarly human attribute, at least on our scale, and we have thousands of examples to choose from of people who did so. It takes confronting all kinds of williwaws, ne'er-do-wells and uncomfortable negotiations, but it can be made to happen.

Bitching and moaning about sky-sized generalities and conspiracies, however, is not part of the formula.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:30 PM

Little Hawk: "I'm not saying we ordinary folks don't have some chance to reach those heights, and I'm not saying that the elite aren't serfs in a sense too...what I'm saying is that we don't live in a truly representative democracy like we were taught when we were children, we live in a business-run oligarchy that perpetuates a myth of representative democracy and goes through the motions of that myth at election time.
And that's what I feel sad about, because I hoped for better than that when I was young."

Abso-fucking-lutely!

Yo Ho,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:17 PM

Well, yes, you're quite right in what you said, Amos. With enough cleverness, drive, and a bit of luck, one does have a chance at becoming part of the wealthy elite. ;-) It's a very small chance, but that doesn't mean it's impossible, and I think it's the secret inner dream of a simply tremendous number of people. Certainly it was always my father's obvious ambition to do that, and my mother's obvious hope that it would somehow happen (though she didn't expect to do it herself). It didn't happen, despite my father's most strenous efforts, but it was certainly the holy grail they both longed for. And have I dreamed of being rich too through some fortunate event? Yeah, sure I have. ;-)

But that wasn't really my point. I'm not saying we ordinary folks don't have some chance to reach those heights, and I'm not saying that the elite aren't serfs in a sense too...what I'm saying is that we don't live in a truly representative democracy like we were taught when we were children, we live in a business-run oligarchy that perpetuates a myth of representative democracy and goes through the motions of that myth at election time.

And that's what I feel sad about, because I hoped for better than that when I was young.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:16 PM

Amos Lightfoot: "MEbbe so, LH,...."

You think, MAYBE??????????????????!

Mouser: "....Lots of Luck"

Luck is the idol, of a lazy man!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:11 PM

It frosts me when people who were born to middle class parents, educated in a good suburban school, and were able to afford to go to university (often on the parental tit) then claim they are entirely self-made and get offended if you contradict them.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:06 PM

Well, yeah. Luck is a wild card in the game.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:40 PM

It is still the case that you can join their ranks with the right application of risk-taking, insight, opportunism, and energetic dedicated application and communication.

And lots and lots of luck.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:26 PM

MEbbe so, LH, but so are the fat cats serfs with a lot of toys to keep them distracted.

Some folks distract more easily than others.

I reject whole heartedly the notion that we are being kept in lowly conditions by the manipulations of the already-rich. It is still the case that you can join their ranks with the right application of risk-taking, insight, opportunism, and energetic dedicated application and communication.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:59 AM

Yes, that is the problem in a nutshell. If the very wealthy can control both of those large political parties...and they do...then you cannot establish a real democracy (or, if you prefer, a real republic) by voting out one party and voting in the other. You can alter the situation a bit, in a superficial sense, but you can't get the government to truly represent the public when both parties have been bought out by vested interests.

The same problem exists in Canada. All our larger political parties are really controlled by the major players in the financial community...and that ain't the general public! And I bet it's just like that in the UK too, although I'm not familiar enough with UK politics to really say.

So we were all told this fairy tale about democracy when we were kids. We were told we lived in a truly representative system which reflected the will of the people. I am sorry to say that that is not so, and there is also no Santa Claus and no Tooth Fairy. We are serfs...serfs with a lot of electronic toys and other goodies to keep us distracted.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:28 AM

Bobert: "Yeah, their is corruption but it has become institutionalized to the point where Boss Hog can make a couple phone calls and get purdy much what he wants... This is not how a "free market" system is supposed to work... It can't be free when the fat cats can rig it in their favor...

That's why we have 9.5% unemployment... It's rigged..."

Finally, you admit it!..Do you think that this corruption is ONLY just the 'Boss Hog' fat cats?..or, from your own post, do you think one could be working without the co-operation, with the government??...and then, just one party, or both?..after all, it IS the Democraps in control now!...and this is happening to you NOW!

To make it short and sweet, the 'Boss Hogs' of this world donate to BOTH sides...and BOTH sides are beholdin' to follow THEIR lead, instead of ours!..(We THE People...The REAL Government)

Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:05 AM

I donno if it's Wall Streets intent to disrupt the economy with the purpose of driving the Dems outta power or not but I suspect that is the case..

I have started to wonder about this, and then slap myself for being a conspiracy theorist. But it will be interesting to see if a Rethug wins in 2012, whether or not all of a sudden money starts flowing again and the economy (meaning jobs) rebounds again with a will. There needn't be a conspiracy if a large group of people choose to do the same thing independently of one another.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 08:07 AM

Yo, mouse,

You certainly hit the nail on the head on why we have so much unemployment... Wall Street has small businesses in a squeeze play and have no intentions of making the loans that 2 years ago would have been no problem...

I've got a 900 credit rating and a bank whoes loan officer has told me going back 5 years that her bank would be with me until I finished the "hotel" project... Then 6 months ago they changed their minds... No real reasons were given other than some vague BS about federal regulators... Seems that when all else fails, blame the feds???

No matter... Like other small businessmen I had no choice but to close up shop and lay off my crew, all of whom are still unemployed...

I donno if it's Wall Streets intent to disrupt the economy with the purpose of driving the Dems outta power or not but I suspect that is the case... And I also suspect that most of it comes from their fear that the Bush tax cuts to the wealthy will be allowed to sunset... That's a big chunk of change that is now sitting idle...

The entire idea behind the tax cuts, we are told, was to ptoduce jobs??? Well, hows it workin'???

From the early 50's into the 70's the unemployment rate stayed at a steady 4%... It's no accident that a third of the workforce was unionized during those years... The thing is that the country was buzzin' along purdy good... No, we didn't have a large number of super wealthy folks but, on the whole, the country and it's economy was a'hummin' then came Reaganomics, union busting and the country hasn't been the same since...

Yeah, their is corruption but it has become institutionalized to the point where Boss Hog can make a couple phone calls and get purdy much what he wants... This is not how a "free market" system is supposed to work... It can't be free when the fat cats can rig it in their favor...

That's why we have 9.5% unemployment... It's rigged...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:33 AM

Well I have to borrow from Akenaton, on this one.

Akenaton: "The evil and deceit engrained in our political system is almost unbelievable, especially to those of us who are "educated" in the workings of said system.
..... so absorbed are we in the divisive minutiae that the system creates."

GfS: Being as we are somewhat at different ends of the spectrum, we both see the same thing. It is astonishing to me that those who are inside the bucket, can't see anything but 'in the bucket'!..Get outside the bucket, and one can see it a bit better!

Akenaton: "It truly amazes me, that most people on this forum still hold on to the outdated ideology of left versus right"

GfS: Yeppers! The hokey argument is just street theater!

Akenaton: "So much hatred for your fellow creatures.....so much energy expended to defend an obviously failing system"

GfS: I remember, as a youngin', my Mom, hating this song, much like we dislike, rap(perhaps), and said the message was very destructive. I sorta liked the song, but many of the people of the day LOVED it. I think they never got out of that mindset, till they were older, and realized that they had squandered a huge potion of their lives...and, of course, it was too late(they felt)....so being as this is a musical forum, let's take a trip to the past...and see if momma was right....I mean would you, who have children encourage them to embrace the lyrics into their bosom????

only practical...for nostalgia's sake!

Better sound quality so you can remember

...and so shortsightedly, a generation of spoiled brats, got older....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 02:55 AM

The evil and deceit engrained in our political system is almost unbelievable, especially to those of us who are "educated" in the workings of said system.

We simply cannot see the wood for the trees, so absorbed are we in the divisive minutiae that the system creates.

It truly amazes me, that most people on this forum still hold on to the outdated ideology of left versus right

So much hatred for your fellow creatures.....so much energy expended to defend an obviously failing system

Wasn't it Dylan who wrote?...."There's no left wing or right wing, just up wing and down wing."

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:02 AM

By "the Afghans", Amos, I meant the general population of the country. It is the general population that suffers when a war happens, and that war was unnecessary. It was an inappropriate response to 9/11, because 9/11 was not an act of war...it was a criminal act. We've been through all this before, so I don't intend to rehash it all, just saying that to respond to something like 911 by invading an entire country is simply not sensible. You respond to criminal acts by small bands of conspirators with international police work and, if necessary, through covert military intelligence work by outfits like the Secret Service, the CIA, and so on....not by launching a conventional military invasion of an entire country.

I do not believe the USA invaded Afghanistan to get Osama Bin Laden. Not for a moment. I think they invaded Afghanistan to occupy and control Afghanistan and control the central Asian region. I'm by no means convinced that Bin Laden even had much, if anything, to do with 911...but if he did, he must be the ideal poster boy for the Project for a New American Century, because 9/11 gave them exactly what they wanted: a "Pearl Harbour Level event" sufficient to justify an open-ended series of American wars in the Middle East. Hell, maybe Bin Laden was even on their payroll. Maybe that's why they have never found him.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:24 AM

I didn't find any such proposed bill but there is this:

"While the Obama Administration and Congress continue to spend hundreds of billions of dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan, legislators continue to dismantle our public services, parks, and educational programs due to budget shortfalls. In Utah, state Sen. Chris Buttars proposed one way of dealing with a budget shortfall: just eliminate the 12th grade. It is not clear why legislators have decided to keep public education at all. If we simply eliminate education, we can send children directly into military training or to work for foreign companies from countries that are expanding their research and educational budgets at the same rate of our decline.

"Buttars suggested that 12th grade is really not that important and most kids are ready for the workforce or life at 17. The move would save $60 million out of the $700 million shortfall in the state's budget."

Of course, Utah State Senator Buttars is also the guy who - in response to a senator speaking of what he called the 'ugly baby' syndrome where Solomon proposed that the baby be cut in half and each putative mother get one half - said:

Senator, this baby is black. I tell you that it's a dark, ugly thing."

More from this Brilliant Guy

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 11:23 PM

Of course most of us don't mind business ('the corporate elite') running things since they pay our salaries and pensions.

Except the issue isn't business, it's megabusiness, which supplies well less than half the jobs -- small businesses, which have no lobbying power, supply half the jobs, and another chunk is supplied by government including schools.

That money is invested, even if it is in banks, where money never 'sits' but is being loaned out for business, homes and the many other means of increasing money and its fluidity.

That's just it. It's NOT being loaned out. The banks are sitting on it because they're afraid if they loan it out they will lose it. Have you been following the news? Small business after small business have been folding because they can't get the short-term loans they depend on to do business. The fatcats, who own the banks, are sitting on the money supply and it ain't circulatin' around. And we will NEVER get out of this depression -- oops sorry, did I say depression? -- recession until it does.

The Republican agenda has now introduced a bill to abolish 11th and 12th grade and suggest kids should then attend prep schools if they have college plans.

Can you point me to a source on this? I'd love to use this as a stick against Republican friends.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 09:09 PM

You got it, Donuel... The Repubs think that the US would be better served if the folks didn't know too much and have been battling for years to do whatever it takes to drive a stake in the heart of public schools... Ya' know, it's very sad to know that my mom attended a better "public" school in the 1920s than then Repubs want today???

Huxley certainly saw this comin' whne he wrote "Brave New World"... The epsilon class is very much amoun us and guess what??? They are not only proud to be ignorant but they vote!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 09:02 PM

The Republican agenda of providing higher education exclusively to the wealthy has been steadily working since the Nixon administration.

The US is now 23rd in the world when it comes to how much a 15 year has learned in their schools.

The wealthy live in gated communites and vote against all education taxes. The Republican agenda has now introduced a bill to abolish 11th and 12th grade and suggest kids should then attend prep schools if they have college plans.

Once Republicans abolish the Education Department all their exclusive education plans will come true in completion.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 05:46 PM

"Policeman to the world" is an old phrase used to cover all of the U. S. actions around the world where military forces were involved. Many unnecessary.

1992, Colin Powell, and perhaps much earlier-
"I'd sort of like to say we're not the superpower or super-policeman of the world, but when there is trouble somewhere in the world that we least expect, it's the United States that gets called on to perform the role of being the cop on the beat."

Military retribution for what?

Bin Laden- they seek him here, they seek him there-
Those yankees seek him everywhere-
Is he in heaven or is he in hell?
That demmed elusive bin Laden
.......................
If you should see him, please do give a yell !

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 05:39 PM

Actually, Q, there have been several reports on the Fortune 500 companies sitting on $1.8T that is not invested... Just cash...

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 03:56 PM

Oh, bullshit, Little Hawk. There is no "the" Afghans. But the officials running the country---the Taliban--had elected to provide a staging platform for OSama bin Laden's operations and shield him from prosecution after the act. So although the PR story may havehad deeper economic routes such as the pan-Russian piplne, it was a justifiable pretext.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 02:32 PM

That was the official reason given, Amos. I think the real reason was much more along the lines of occupying a vital strategic region that rests across key strategic trade and transport routes to Russia, China, the Middle East, and India (which is why major empires have been fighting over Afghanistan for centuries now)...and which allows direct access to the oil-producing regions in the Caspian...and which enables encirclement of Iran.

Retribution for 911 was just the PR excuse to get the public onside for what is a typical imperial war by a great power with the usual imperial objectives. The Afghans did not plan or carry out the 911 attacks, and I'm sure they were as shocked and astounded as anyone when those attacks occured. Those attacks were the propaganda key that unlocked Pandora's Box, and the Afghans were simply the hapless recipients of the hellstorm that was unleashed. They are very good, though, at fighting invaders. Their history has proven that time and again.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM

Q:

Just as a reminder, the rational for the war in Afghanistan was not police work but military retribution.



A

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 02:11 PM

Money squirreled away and gathering dust? Kept under the mattress?
Nonsense.
That money is invested, even if it is in banks, where money never 'sits' but is being loaned out for business, homes and the many other means of increasing money and its fluidity.

The stupid war and adventures in Afghanistan have cost almost $1 trillion so far. It and similar fiascos have wasted money that could have been used to support infrastructure and education.
I agree, that this is government waste to the nth degree; businesses large and small share the blame that the U. S. tries to act as policeman to the world. The culprits are ourselves because the majority approves of these actions.

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 01:09 PM

The tax rates that Americans pay today are the lowest in almost 2 decades and lower than any industrialized nation... Problem is that in almost every category that is good the US ranks poorly and every category that is bad the US ranks high... This is a recipe for disaster...

As for how much money the rich have squirrled away??? Plenty...

Why, GfinS, do you think it's okay for so few to have so much and everyone else treading water or going backwards???

One paragraph answer, por favor...

B~

p.s. BY the way, I can wipe my own ass, thank you...

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 12:39 PM

Bobert: "Spoken like a true Republican, GfinS... That is the Reagan model for everything... Less government, more privatizaion and..."

I guess you'd like the Federal government to even wipe your ass, too!

"....Maybe you ain't been to too many nursing homes but well over half the folks in them wouldn't be in them if it wasn't for the federal government paying for their care..."


Maybe if there was less stupid programs facilitating easy destruction of the family unit, families could take care of their own!..again: 'I guess you'd like the Federal government to even wipe your ass, too!'

Bobert: "Do you have a clue how much money the wealthy are just sittin' on now??? Like most of it... That money is just collectin' dust yet you want to channel even more of it to them using that bogus, "everyone-is-corrupt" crap as yer shield... Meanwhile, while you are busy disassembling the federal government, the poverty and homeless rates are going to skyrocket..."

It sounds like you have a Jones about 'the wealthy'. Wealth is relative, as in, 'One man's ceiling is another man's floor'. Perhaps if the Federal government wasn't pandering to the large corporations, there would be MORE money circulating! The problem is YOU ,and too many people have become DEPENDENT on the very people fucking you over!..but you don't see it, or see it that way. Between the cost of ever rising taxes, and corporate greed, people can barely hold their heads above water. This doesn't have to be, but as long as they continue this cyclical jacking everything up, we, the 'common citizen' are being squeezed to death.....

Bobert: "Well, Boberdz... That's why we call is "personal responsibility"..."

Oh my good Lord, perish the thought...again,'I guess you'd like the Federal government to even wipe your ass, too!'

Bobert: "With 30 years of union busting the "mouldy working class" hasn't seen any real advances in their wages since 1982..."

Just heard today, out of California: California is leading the country on unions losing ground, and people NOT joining unions, or leaving them! True story...NOT that I am totally against unions, but they in fact, like the 'other side', too have grown to big through corruption. Companies cannot afford all their wages and benefits, so the Federal government made 'allowances'(tax breaks, and incentives), for manufacturing to go overseas. WE DO NOT even manufacture all our own military equipment!...and if we needed it for an attack of our own country, we have to import major amounts, from countries whose own interests, would like to see us defeated! Now that makes little sense!...Possibly, in certain respects, we are tugging at the same rope!

Bobert: "Yeah, scream "both sides are corrupt" while Boss Hog breaks down your door and bends you over."....

...No problem for you..You're already grabbing you ankles! So, ask yourselves this simple question: Would you rather be CONTROLLED by the Federal government, or the corporations, THROUGH the federal government??...Actually, I'd rather NOT be CONTROLLED by EITHER!

Bobert: "...Boss Hog's favorite song is "Both Sides Blues"..."

They should know!...They've got the receipts for corrupting BOTH SIDES!!...Jeez! Get a CLUE!

Greg F: "ATTENTION: Tea-Bagger Fake "Fact".

I didn't get that from the 'Tea Baggers'. That is out, through several leading economists....Sorry, if the Tea Bag guys are spouting it too, well at least a broken clock is right, two times a day!

Why are you all so hell-bent on being taxed into dependency, on the jerks who are taxing you so high????...For NOTHING?? The programs we 'borrowed' for SHOULD have been enough, several times over! When we borrow like that, from the Federal Reserve, keep in mind, the interest on those 'loans',, is paid for by our taxes, to the Fed, A 'FOR PROFIT PRIVATE BANKING CORPORATION!!!"

Non compos mentos!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 09:10 AM

this 'health(?)care' bill will dwarf the cost of the war! By 2020, the cost of our debt to the Federal Reserve(a private corporation), will be 95% of our entire GNP...

ATTENTION: Tea-Bagger Fake "Fact"

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 08:23 AM

...and 200...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: What Would a Repub Admin be Like?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 08:20 AM

Spoken like a true Republican, GfinS... That is the Reagan model for everything... Less government, more privatizaion and Katie-bar-the-door 'cause Boss Hog ain't had enough of having his way with ya'...

I mean, you should hear yerself, GfinS...

Do you have a clue how much money the wealthy are just sittin' on now??? Like most of it... That money is just collectin' dust yet you want to channel even more of it to them using that bogus, "everyone-is-corrupt" crap as yer shield... Meanwhile, while you are busy disassembling the federal government, the poverty and homeless rates are going to skyrocket... Perhaps you have a plan for that??? I mean, one really great thing that we as a people do is respect our elderly... Maybe you ain't been to too many nursing homes but well over half the folks in them wouldn't be in them if it wasn't for the federal government paying for their care...

(Well, Boberdz... That's why we call is "personal responsibility"... Them people should have made more money and planned better for their old age...)

So, what you gonna do, GfinS... Put old people out on the streets???

BTW, what is your Republican plan for health care??? Just let the young eat-drink-and-be-merry until they gat to be 50 or so and then need more health care but never really put any peas in the pot until they were sick and least able to afford it???

(Well, Boberdz... Those people shouldn't be able to do that... Had they been "persoanlly responsible" in the first place they would have had insurance...)

And just where do you suggest that the "mouldy working class" get the money for that and all the other high priced luxaries, like transportation, food, housing... You know, all them extravagant things... I mean, where do they get the $$$, GfinS... With 30 years of union busting the "mouldy working class" hasn't seen any real advances in their wages since 1982... Many have actually seen a decline now that Boss Hog sees that there is a perfect storm for him to exploit his workers and is making them pay more for their health insurance (%-wise) than at any time in the last 40 years...

Yeah, scream "both sides are corrupt" while Boss Hog breaks down your door and bends you over... Might of fact, Boss Hog's favorite song is "Both Sides Blues"... Puts a twinlkle in his eye when he hears it... His PR folks love it too 'cause they are the ones who taught to the folks who parrot it...

B~