BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:16 PM

P've been there and I can assure you that arbitrary disconnection without explanation is not the purview of men, only, nor are they cut any less deep by it.

That said, here's part of the explanation, from an OLD internet humor piece:

Roger and Elaine



What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Let's say a guy named Roger is attracted to a woman named Elaine.

He asks her out to a movie; she accepts; they have a pretty good time.   A few nights later he asks her out to dinner, and again they enjoy themselves. They continue to see each other regularly, and after a while neither one of them is seeing anybody else. And then, one evening when they're driving home, a thought occurs to Elaine, and, without really thinking, she says it aloud:

"Do you realize that, as of tonight, we've been seeing each other for exactly six months?"

And then there is silence in the car. To Elaine, it seems like a very loud silence. She thinks to herself: Gee, I wonder if it bothers him that I said that. Maybe he's been feeling confined by our relationship; maybe he thinks I'm trying to push him into some kind of obligation that he doesn't want, or isn't sure of.   

And Roger is thinking: Gosh. Six months.

And Elaine is thinking: But, hey, I'm not so sure I want this kind of relationship, either. Sometimes I wish I had a little more space, so I'd have time to think about whether I really want us to keep going the way we are, moving steadily toward . . . I mean, where are we going? Are we just going to keep seeing each other at this level of intimacy? Are we heading toward marriage? Toward children? Toward a lifetime together? Am I ready for that level of commitment? Do I really even know this person?   

And Roger is thinking: . . . so that means it was . . . let's see...February when we started going out, which was right after I had the car at the dealer's, which means . . . lemme check the odometer...Whoa! I am way overdue for an oil change here!   

And Elaine is thinking: He's upset. I can see it on his face. Maybe I'm reading this completely wrong. Maybe he wants more from our relationship, more intimacy, more commitment; maybe he has sensed, even before I sensed it-that I was feeling some reservations. Yes, I bet that's it. That's why he's so reluctant to say anything about his own feelings. He's afraid of being rejected.   

And Roger is thinking: And I'm gonna have them look at the transmission again. I don't care what those morons say, it's still not shifting right. And they better not try to blame it on the cold weather this time. What cold weather? It's 87 degrees out, and this thing is shifting like a garbage truck, and I paid those bastards

And Elaine is thinking: He's angry. And I don't blame him. I'd be angry, too. I feel so guilty, putting him through this, but I can't help the way I feel. I'm just not sure.   

And Roger is thinking: They'll probably say it's only a 90-day warranty. That's exactly what they're gonna say, the rats.   

And Elaine is thinking: maybe I'm just too idealistic, waiting for a knight to come riding up on his white horse, when I'm sitting right next to a perfectly good person, a person I enjoy being with, a person I truly do care about, a person who seems to truly care about me. A person who is in pain because of my self-centered, schoolgirl romantic fantasy.   

And Roger is thinking: Warranty? They want a warranty? I'll give them a warranty. I'll take their warranty and stick it right up their ....   

"Roger," Elaine says aloud.

"What?" says Roger, startled.

"Please don't torture yourself like this," she says, her eyes beginning to brim with tears. "Maybe I should never have ...I feel so ..." (She breaks down, sobbing.)

"What?" says Roger.

"I'm such a fool," Elaine sobs. "I mean, I know there's no knight. I really know that. It's silly. There's no knight, and there's no horse."

"There's no horse?" says Roger.

"You think I'm a fool, don't you?" Elaine says.

"No!" says Roger, glad to finally know the correct answer.

"It's just that... It's that I...I need some time," Elaine says.

(There is a 15-second pause while Roger, thinking as fast as he can, tries to come up with a safe response. Finally he comes up with one that he thinks might work.) "Yes," he says.   

(Elaine, deeply moved, touches his hand.) "Oh, Roger, do you really feel that way?" she says.   

"What way?" says Roger.

"That way about time," says Elaine.

"Oh," says Roger. "Yes."

(Elaine turns to face him and gazes deeply into his eyes, causing him to become very nervous about what she might say next, especially if it involves a horse. At last she speaks.) "Thank you, Roger," she says.   

"Thank you," says Roger.

Then he takes her home, and she lies on her bed, a conflicted, tortured soul, and weeps until dawn.   

Whereas when Roger gets back to his place, he opens a bag of Doritos, turns on the TV, and immediately becomes deeply involved in a rerun of a tennis match between two Czechs he never heard of. A tiny voice in the far recesses of his mind tells him that something major was going on back there in the car, but he is pretty sure there is no way he would ever understand what, and so he figures it's better if he doesn't think about it. (This is also Roger's policy regarding world hunger.)

The next day Elaine will call her closest friend, or perhaps two of them, and they will talk about this situation for six straight hours.   In painstaking detail, they will analyze everything she said and everything he said, going over it time and time again, exploring every word, expression, and gesture for nuances of meaning, considering every possible ramification. They will continue to discuss this subject, off and on, for weeks, maybe months, never reaching any definite conclusions, but never getting bored with it, either.   

Meanwhile, Roger, while playing racquetball one day with a mutual friend of his and Elaine's, will pause just before serving, frown and say: "Norm, did Elaine ever own a horse?"      

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:30 PM

"... summarily weighed, judged and dumped."

So damned sad that people (in this case, a man) are able to kid themselves about what they are really looking for in a partner and then not be up front about what to DO about the mistake.

I have met one woman who was pretty, charming, intelligent, witty, caring...etc., but whose romances were short and sad, and who never understood why. The truth was that she had this ideal template for "male companion", and the moment a man showed serious interest in her, she began the process of altering him to fit her notion of perfection...and she was not too subtle about it! The men usually wrikled their foreheads in confusion and slipped quietly away. (I did not DARE to tell her what my thoughts were....and thus I remained friends with her)

I also knew a man many years ago who went through women like a whirlwind....he was always charmed by any woman who proved 'hard to get', but once she gave in to him, he was bored with her. (I once threw him out of my house for trying to assert his power over a woman who was a guest of mine and now had an interest in someone else....he never understood why I was so upset with him and refused to have any more to do with him!)

Maybe it's just that people in this complex society have so many conflicting ideas of what is fair, interesting, reasonable and sexually desirable that the chances of a good match between them have decreased a lot in the last few decades. I have 27 interwoven theories, but no answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: mg
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:53 PM

I am not reading into this situation that he was a bad awful creep and therefore you should never trust another man. Ladies take heed..likewise gents..this is what the RUles says and I think it is true..if he loves you enough..he will marry you. Fairly soon on in the process. If he does not marry you, there could be other reasons, but the main one is probably he does not love you enough. If you are not married, (and sometimes if you are) you are therefore quite vulnerable to being left in the lurch..otherwise he would have married you...see how it works? So ask him fairly soon if he wants to be married or not, at least in a theoretical way. If that does not jibe with what you want, part from him first.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Heart-broken
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:27 PM

BRUCIE: No - not a bad relationship: a heart warming, soaringly wonderful, thrilling, soul-matched relationship based on mutual emotional recognition, and unsparing honesty about hopes, dreams and feelings. Until, one day, the other, presumably, decided it had been a nice dream (or distraction?), they'd enjoyed the good feelings they got from it - but decided to shoulder their real life again.

It would have been nice to been part of that decision: instead of being left to work out that this wasn't just them needing time out, but, as the days turned to weeks and then months, in fact I had been summarily weighed, judged and dumped.

So, yes, this guy has ruined for it all the rest. Like the song: "Why'd you have to be so good?" etc. Have been so massively taken in despite being on my guard, and then after continual reiteration and confirmation that this was different - the chemistry felt right, this was someone who didn't want to bonk my brains out, someone who could hold me by the hand, lift me up tenderly, make me laugh through my tears - goddamit, he was nearly a woman!

I guess that because I grew up in a fairly academic circumstances where minds mattered more than gender I kind of assume that people are first and foremost interested in my mind. Sadly, I am very often disappointed and taken aback that that is not the case and, try as I might, I cannot adjust my personality "downwards": so, Little Hawk, I'm as surprised as you to find my own gender can be aggressive in dating. Yes, like you, I spent years convinced that "boys" were immune to less obvious charms and shortcomings.

Kendall (and Little Hawk) – attracting the same sort of personality and blaming others. Well, all I can say is that demographics come into this. I know now that now being attractive and confident I get all kinds of men hitting on me – which gets kind of boring and predictable. Which is why the one that finally I let get under my skin and other places (someone on my own wave length - which is pretty off beat on occasions), was all the more devastating, because it wasn't predictable – but an, oh, so subtle, "horns of the buffalo", victory. One has to ask the question, why?

Why the completeness of the conquest (physical, emotional etc), did this satisfy some huge ego trip? EG: "Let's aim for someone lots of other guys want (and who holds out against them) prove she's no different, and can be had, in the end, just like all the others?" Perhaps they were proving something to themselves ....

I apologise for the "all (non-relationship) men are wankers" that was a sweeping generalisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:40 PM

Pithily, nay! That was an erudite filip.

I find it interesting that freda listed respect (and acceptance) as the main ingredient. That's what I always told myself about my relationship with my ex who couldn't be trusted, as I accepted, before flitted off with her old boyfriend. . . . I'm going to experiment with the trust thing next, since it comes so highly recommended.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: bbc
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:39 PM

freda,

I can relate to your comments. I've also had 2 meaningful relationships of length that have ended, one initiated by the man & one by me. They have been at either end of the spectrum, it seemed, in terms of personalities. So, kendall, I thought I *had* learned something. The fact remains that they both ended, leaving me feeling rather clueless about relationship. At present, I am enjoying a friendship w/ a man from my past. By most ways of reckoning, we have little in common. Still, we have fun together, help each other out, & care to hear about the details of the other's day-to-day happenings. I don't think he'll ever be the "love of my life" nor do I flatter myself that I hold that place in his life. Is this settling or is this a realistic, valid relationship? Maybe this thread is melding w/ the "What is love?" thread.

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 03:00 PM

Allan C

Thank you for that considered reply (the cedilla in façade tells us).

I have for over ten years been to festivals on my own, though since I met Joy she joins me for one ceilidh. On nights I am alone I make a point of dancing with many different woman (from kids to pensioners) to avoid giving signals but that doesn't always work and I usually resort to mentioning the girlfriend somehow. It is not that I have misread the signals so much as I don't want my signals to be unclear.
There have been unequivocal signals at times - like the confirmed non dancers asking (telling) me to dance, the corn dolly offering (charged with folk significance) and the surprise kiss.
I have to say at the level of self-worth I am thankful for those confirmations.

And to state something we have hinted at, skirted around (pun intended) but not managed to summarise pithilly this statistically significant fact (but not necessarilly true individually).

Men are problem-solvers, woman like to feel good about it.

Men - go figure. Women - tell me about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:40 PM

" Relationships are not primarily for what most people think they're for (to meet our needs and make us happy)...they are opportunities for rubbing off the rough edges in our own character by getting involved with people who irritate and stimulate those rough edges."

this moves in to the what you believe is what you get thread....

LH with respect i totally disagree with this statement, it assumes a lemming like drive towards being with someone for the wrong reasons.

I have had two defining relationships in my life. One was with a man who was charismatic, powerful, abusive and destructive. the relationship was volatile and unpleasant. luckily it only lasted five years, but it took another five years before i tried again.

the next person I got involved with was talented, gentle, intuitive and courteous. and, the intimate relationship was much more fulfilling with him than with the nasty guy. he wasn't afraid to love. we stayed together for 14 years, and during those 14 years our relationship was democratic and respectful.

one of the reasons i got involved with him, apart from the inital observation of affection and respect that his friends held him in, and the attraction, and our many interests in common, was because i knew i would be safe with him.

it was a good choice and gave us many happy years. we are still good friends and help each other out. our breakup was sad, carefully considered, but inevitable due to major life differences that developed. and no harsh words were spoken.

i will never again go into a rough edges relationship. and i know that it doesn't have to be like that. all it takes is mutual respect and acceptance.

respect is the biggest issue. to respect someone is everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:20 PM

Why do men behave in such a boorish manner? Lets see...after 4 years of proving that I was intelligent, caring, able and a lot of other positive adjectives, I still couldn't get a date with a girl if the pimply faced idiot jock asked her out first. I read a study that said when women feel the urge to procreate they look towards the "physically" superior male of the herd. When they want to settle down and raise the kids or just settle down they want the kind, caring, considerate men. Ufortunately by then those type of men have become discouraged and wandered off to their computers where they won't be judged by their outward physical appearance (and here I'm referring to overall appearance, not just whether a man is handsome or not).

Thats my $.02 (damnit they stole my cents sign!)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:40 PM

This will probably upset a few people if I say this, but the fact that the man involved is from North Africa may make the situation a little more complicated. Having had some experience in a similar situation I can tell you that the cultural attitude these men are likely to have towards women may be very different from the attitude of most Western Europeans or Americans. I had a couple of relationships with men from this part of the world and lived to regret it. They may be nice people but the deeper you get into a relationship the more they seem to fall back into the macho way of thinking they were raised in. Just a caveat. Remember that women in their culture are considered to be beneath men - period. And while they may expect sex from a western woman, they won't respect you after you get involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:02 PM

You're absolutely right, Kendall. Many people bop along from one dysfunctional relationship to the next, repeating their mistakes endlessly and blaming everyone else. These people would benefit from some good therapy, but the ones who are worst afflicted often would not even consider getting it! They wouldn't admit to such weakness, and besides, "it's the OTHER person's fault!"

The Sopranos is a very interesting show, because there you have Tony Soprano (the kind of guy who normally would not THINK of seeing a therapist)...and he goes to a therapist...and she's a good one. Very good scripts in that series.

Harpgirl - Well, thanks. :-) It's not so much that I'm a good catch, though. It's more that I'm a good friend and a great person to have a conversation with about almost anything or play music with. I've had plenty of longterm female (and male) friends who can vouch for that. I'm not really a good "catch" cos I seem to get a bit antsy after a while when I'm in a one-on-one relationship of the usual sort. Exactly why that is, I am still investigating. Maybe my childhood romantic expectations were a bit unrealistic? Did I say maybe? Ha!

My current therapist is a very smart lady, and she says this: Relationships are not primarily for what most people think they're for (to meet our needs and make us happy)...they are opportunities for rubbing off the rough edges in our own character by getting involved with people who irritate and stimulate those rough edges. This is uncomfortable and challenging. Once you have smoothed off most of your rough edges, you are much more likely to find greater harmony in relationships, and stop subconsciously seeking out people to do battle with.

Sex drive, of course, tends to confuse the issue, to say the least.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:52 PM

There is nothing to equal the experience of having sex with someone you love, but, how often does that happen? What do you do in the meantime? Hold your own? Have sex with someone you like?
I vote for 1, 3 and 2 in that order.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:44 PM

Women use sex to get love. Men use love to get sex. Live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:42 PM

That statement that all the good men are already in relationship is simply not true.

I have seen case after case where people continue to be attracted to inappopriate partners, and like the movie Groundhogs Day, repeat the same mistake time after time, and continue to blame it on everyone but themselves.
Find out why you are attracted to the wrong type! Sure it's a lot harder than blaming all those "No good men/women" but it's the only way you are going to ever have a viable relationship.
Living with a therapist and being attracted to the wrong type of women myself tells me that I know what I'm talking about.

Case in point, a guy I know was talking about this wife and that wife, finally, I asked him how many times he'd been married. He said "7 times". I said "Doesn't that tell you something"? he answered, "Yes, I just havn't found the right one yet."
And, he was dead serious. He doesn't have a clue!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:46 AM

Harpgirl, you may be tripping over the liability of Internet romance right there! Fortunately, it's not a call I have to make!

:>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,harp
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:02 AM

sorry, LH...it's just that I think you are such a good catch!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:01 AM

Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?

Depends on which era you are referring to. In the 1960's many men (and girls) would have thought that two days (let alone weeks) was a long time to wait.

Of course a lot depends on how many times you had seen your partner in the two weeks and how you had behaved towards him. At one one time many women believed that it was very unladylike to ever say yes to a fellow until he had badgered her for quite a time, however much she wanted to. The natural male reaction to this was to start asking for sex reasonably soon, but not to actually expect to get an assent for some time.

I must admit that if I had dated a girl who was still not sure if she wanted sex or not after a reasonable time, I would probably have to decide whether the relationship was satisfying enough to continue on a purely platonic basis - there have been quite a few that have, but not as an exclusive relationship.

Mind you I went out with one lady who, although she allowed quite a lot of petting, would not let things "go all the way". One night however, she suddenly asked me to do that very thing. I was rather caught out and explained that I didn't have a condom. "Oh that doesn't matter", she said "I started taking the pill just after I met you and now that a couple of months are up it should be quite safe".

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: bbc
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:36 AM

Thanks for your comments, Allan. Part of what I was trying to say, at the end, is that I don't always know exactly what I want out of a relationship. That complicates things. It feels natural to flirt w/ some folks. That doesn't necessarily mean I want them in my pants. Perhaps it's better to try to control flirting, but, perhaps, the opposite sex should also give equal weight to the words that are said. Flirting can be a lot of fun for both parties, but I don't think it should be assumed to be foreplay.

I have found a lot of men I like, respect, &/or am attracted to. They are "out there." Unfortunately, in our age group, the majority of them are already in relationship.

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:25 AM

Couldn't agree more, AllanC. I go to the local restaurant, observe the "men" in action, doing their usual pretentious blathering, oneupmanship, macho posing, cursing, dumb jokes, etc...and think, "Why would any woman be impressed by these guys?" It depends on the restaurant though. There's one place in this town, La Mezzaluna, that actually seems to attract men with some subtlety and maturity...as well as some very interesting women as well. It's a great place to have lunch.

Harpgirl - Now, don't go trying to set me up with anyone... :-) Like I said, I'm suspicious of the concept of Internet romance. And things are going pretty smoothly right now.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:06 AM

Please pardon me if I ramble just a bit. There have been many issues brought to light here that I want to address.

That the two genders are different appears at first glance to be a no-brainer. (Or as someone said, "Duh".) What I think I see being pointed out over and over here is that we often forget that basic tenet and what it means. It can be a lifetime occupation just to try to compensate for the lack of the ability to understand the drives and thought processes of another. Not everyone chooses to make that effort. It is a lot of work and can sometimes prove not to be worth the bother.

It may surprise you to know that I don't like most men. I don't know whether to blame the demeanor of so many of them on bad role models, television or what; but I will add the words, self-absorbed and pretentious, to Little Hawk's mention of the "loudmouthed, aggressive assholes". Boring? I'm not sure that is the right word. Boorish seems to fit much better. Wearisome fits as well. I find all the pissing contests and Neanderthal grunting quite wearisome. I think it is extremely sad that so many men put so much energy into perpetuating the macho façade, whatever the reason. What I will never understand for as long as I live is that so many of these men are married. This means that some women found these features acceptable enough (or even attractive enough!) to vow to live with them for eternity (or "until divorce do we part".) Can those women really be that desperate? Or do they cling to the notion that they can influence a change? I just don't get it.

As I hope you have discovered for yourself, not all men are as I have described. There are more gentle and even more genteel models; but because of their very nature, they are much harder to find. Lacking the macho ostentation, they don't stand out in most crowds. It is these men who are more likely to be the ones Freda speaks of that "display with [their] wit, [their] music, [their] eyes." I very much like most men of this sort. I believe it is these men who are usually more in touch with themselves and who are, therefore, perhaps more able to be in touch with the women in their lives.

Whether either of these groups of men is more capable than the other of respecting a woman's wish to abstain from having sex for a lengthy period of time is not something I can accurately assess. While I suspect it would be the latter group, my best guess is that the majority of men of either group, no matter how much they might feel toward a woman, would expect to have sex with her once the romance was well under way. I suppose there are people who can intellectualize abstention and categorize it as an exercise in the demonstration of respect. Personally, I can find no justification for what I see as the denial of an extremely important aspect of the relationship. Lacking more accurate parallels, I would have to compare it with choosing not to discuss financial matters until after you have been in an otherwise complete relationship for many months. Do you really not want to know about such a vital issue until you have invested so much emotion and effort in the relationship? I refer again to my caveat regarding galoshes and bassoons. I am about as hopelessly romantic as they get; but there is a practical side that should never be eliminated from consideration.

I believe I do understand what you are wanting, B&B. I dated and eventually married a woman who had written a treatise on "Virginity After Marriage". But even she changed her stance in short order.

bbc is spot on about the signals. I have been on both sides of having signals to be misread. It can be a very difficult matter. What some might interpret as simple flirtation or teasing, others will see as overt invitation for much more. Saying what you want and don't want clearly and succinctly is very good and all. But doing so does take a lot of the fun out of the flirtation bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: matai
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:31 AM

(some thoughts on this subject)
touch is often something that is quite hard to do, it can be faked, acted out...actually feeling and wanting the touching can be fraught with anxieties, insecurities, fallacious beliefs about oneself and others...but if i took all that into consideration i'd never do it...sometimes one has to take a risk...maybe it pays off, maybe it doesn't...i like to be alone but i also like to be with...so I reach out...am met with indifference...othertimes there is response... maybe the response is different from what i expect so i have to rethink, step back, try again....move jerkily into this relationship i'm having/going to have/almost have had...who knows? aren't there always evolutionary aspects?

Matai

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: bbc
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:27 AM

Dear B&B,

I have become single a couple of times now as a mature woman & have had the same experience you had. Frankly, I don't find dating as a non-teenager to be much fun. I don't think men have changed--sex tends to be a strong drive for them--but I think they are more comfortable with letting their desires be known. Although I might prefer a bit more of a romantic flare, I can deal w/ the honesty of a man telling me, upfront, that he wants to sleep w/ me. At my current age of 50, I am confident enough in myself that I can take that information & decide whether that's what I want, too. If it's not, I try to be clear & honest in my answer. I don't think the current openness is a particular problem. The only thing that offends me is lack of honesty & mutual respect between the sexes. It's one thing to tell me you want to have sex w/ me. It's another to assume I will do so & to treat me disrespectfully if I don't choose to. Another factor, however, is to try to avoid giving mixed signals to the other sex. Many men will be looking for any indication that you *will* sleep w/ them. It is often difficult, going into a dating situation, to know what you may want to do. I've found, to my dismay, that flirting behavior can lead to misunderstandings, no matter how many rational words I utter. There's no perfect solution. I'm convinced that men & women just think differently. Good luck; I empathize!

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:04 AM

I think it's been established that we are alike in liking to be alone. This is hardly a good beginning to anything more than enjoying each others' postings...from a distance. I'm enjoying that a whole lot, thanks harpgirl. PS-Say hi to your son for me!..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: harpgirl
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:56 AM

I think Ellenpoly and Little Hawk should meet one another! They both write so eloquently...

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:33 AM

i have been single for four years, and found the first four weeks the hardest. extremely tough. but then I got used to it, and even got to enjoy my peace.

i don't know what this has to do with music, but I have found as I've got older that people become more of themselves, more uniquely different, as we move through the decades. and that means also knowing clearly what you want to get close to, and what you can't tolerate. being eccentric, having particular interests, having a blunt sense of humour, all these things make up a cocktail of attraction of deterrence. people are less prepared to compromise or modify behaviour when older.

Birds display with their dances and feathers (have you ever witnessed brolgas dancing? .. be entranced).

we display with our wit, our music, our eyes.

for me the important things are intelligence, humour, a particular political view, confidence, and talent.

some people have been very frank on this thread. there are lots of reasons, explanations, hopes and horror stories.

Recently I went to a fund raising party with some girlfriends. There were some very distinguished looking, extremely well dressed men there, aged in their 50-60s.. One of them came over to our table and flirted heavily. He was a very charming man. when he introduced himself and his friends by nickname, I recognised them as some of the most dangerous crims in Australia. The Silver Fox, Abo Henry, etc... we had a very pleasant night, but I didn't give him my phone number.

some people say that going looking is the way. but for me it has only happened when i wasn't looking.

so i'm not (but does that mean i really am?)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Guessed
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:40 AM

a cutting from the Planet Zog Daily Planet

Anyone finding pieces of broken heart please send in plain brown envelope to Ms Irate, Planet Angry.
Please - no Glue.

It is only a guess BUT some people are attracted to others with a bit of "something" about them. People with latent anger might just have "anger making" confused with "anti-wimp".   Nice guys and wimp are often confused as the same thing. They are not.   

And as for waiting 6 months, level with the person, state your road map. It will help them decide. If that worries you then tell them. Honesty is disarming if the person is right. And if you are angry tell them, but DONT SHOUT.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:11 AM

What an interesting thread. First of all, I guess I have to say that my comments about C Batteries, chocolate, etc, though true to a certain extent, was not meant to be taken as the best way to end up at the age of 42, 52, or 62...It's just a way that sometimes suits.

Little Hawk, we were cut from the same cloth. I felt it from the first. Funny that, but I keep nodding my head whenever I read your postings.

Anyway, I just wanted to add that sex between a man and a woman has never been more complicated. What began as an impulse towards procreation has become the stuff of literature, art, music,...I can hardly think of a subject that isn't in some way now connected to that once only physical act.

Yes, relationships are often difficult to navigate, and sometimes we crash and burn with such force that the magnitude of the event can stop us from ever wanting to go that route again. This can be devastating for many. Some go on and take up the reins again, because we feel the need so strongly,and down the road find what in a sense we might all wish to find-a compassionate, loving, supportive connection. But for those of us who have taken the relationship path, whether for permanent, temporary, good or ill, (or both), and find we are still alone- we have two choices; keep going down that path because it is always there until we keel over...or take another path alone. They can both be satisfying if we are ready for what they offer us.

Men and women are different. Duh. We have our bodies and our language to attempt communication and understanding. Sometimes no matter what we do, how pure our intentions, we'll still have a break-down in making sense of how the other one ticks. What I found within the course of my decade-long marriage, which is now a long way back in the past, but the lessons not forgotten, is that there is little chance of a connection being maintained if there is a power struggle going on between the couple. I was immensely fortunate that within one of the craziest marriages imaginable, the one thing we didn't do to each other is have power plays. We respected our differences, our strengths, and weaknesses, and did our best to compliment each other. And we worked together 24 hours a day, so I'd say that part of it was enormously successful. The sex, well, I won't go into detail here, because in the words of harpgirl's son, you do not need to know that...but it waxed and waned, and I think that was also part of what happens in a long term connection.

So what's the point, as I digress all over the place? Ah-we are two genders within the same species...but because of our brains, there are far more differences between us than with other species. We need to remember that and not have expectations that the connection will be necessarily immediate, easy, or lasting. If ANY of those do happen, count yourself lucky ducks and do your best not to blow it. But the human department store has many floors, and there is no "one size fits all"...xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 03:44 AM

Precisely, Andi !

'Middle Aged Man', in answer to some of the points you made:

You said: "When the chemistry is there, the good sense and practicality go out of the window". No they don't !! The chemistry is very much there between me and this man. It was there from the minute we set eyes on each other. We met in the course of a 'normal' working day, not in a social situation where either of us were actively out looking for a mate. He has turned up in my life like a bolt from the blue. Yes, I am romantically interested in him. It would be very easy for me to go along with his wishes and leap into bed with him right now, and I know, from the times we have spent together, it would be a delightful experience for both of us. You think I don't want to do that ? Of course I do. And, of course, I have made the way I feel about the situation, and that this is too early, clear to him. It would be foolish and unkind of me not to.

But, I am a grown woman who made mistakes when she was younger, and learned from them. How, after two weeks, can there have been time to get to know him enough for trust to exist between us to the extent of total intimacy ? From a man's point of view: "Is she really interested in ME, or just wanting financial security ?" (see Mr. Red's experiences). From my point of view, in this instance: "Is he really interested in ME - human beings could all win Oscars as actors - or, as a foreigner working in this country, does he see me and my address as a way to stay here ?" Only time can answer those kind of questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 03:22 AM

When I dated, as a young divorced mother of two, I was always totally honest with the person. Sometimes I had to be blunt, look them in the eye and say, "You may buy me a drink, take me to dinner, etc., but I will NOT fuck you for it." Most times when it came to that, the guys were relieved and we went on to have a nice time. I think they were glad to get it out in the open, so that there were no awkward moments or guessing games of will she/won't she, should I/shouldn't I.

However, it is a misconception, imo, that men have more of a sex drive than women; women havne't had as much opportunity to be as open about it as men, until the past two or three decades. I know plenty of centre-aged women who would welcome finding a man of similar age who can still get it "up" and is still interested in having a good romp.

Having said all of that, like a few others have noted, Rog and I melded our hearts, souls, and bodies on our first date and our 24th anniversary is in two days. What's funny about that is I'd been twice-married and divorced before that, plus dated a lot and swore I would never sleep with a guy, again, until we'd dated a few times! Ya never know when a soul mate is going to come along and then whatever you decide feels right no matter which date it is, imo.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 03:00 AM

andi - Yup. You hit the nail on the head that time.

Heartbroken - You may be surprised to learn that I (a man) have come to sort of the same general conclusion about dating/living with women as you have about men! I can't be bothered anymore. But with some differences...

I feel no need to become gay in order to fill the void. Men don't physically attract me for some reason...and more importantly: There is no void! :-) I am quite happy being single.

I feel no reason to denigrate women now or complain about them, though. I still have a high opinion of them in a general sense, I just don't seem to find happiness in having romantic relationships with them. A little happiness, yes, but a whole lot more complication and heartache that kind of wrecks my emotional life as time goes by. It just doesn't work for me. I like my own company.

Masturbation? Well, it's okay, but it becomes less important as time goes by and one gets older. Not that I'm arguing against it. I'm not. If anyone finds it helps them enjoy life more, that's just fine with me. I've studied Taoist health techniques for many years, and I would suggest that men (but not women) need to lessen their indulgence in this practice as they get older for various health and energy reasons. All I can say is, you women are lucky when it comes to this particular matter! :-) You're like the energizer bunny. I am green with envy.

I was amused by some of the stuff you wrote. Yeah, the majority of men ARE boring and predictable! I've been noticing that myself ever since I was 15 years old (or even younger). I've always thought the average woman had a lot more on the uptake...but I think that's as much a result of cultural brainwashing as it is of innate gender characteristics. This society teaches men to be assholes, to put it bluntly. And most of them are so naive that they fall for it in their youth and never recover!

Pity them in their innocence, I say.

Yeah, the average middle-aged guy may be, as you say, "short, fat, grey, balding, with a preference for grey, sagging, nylon underwear, dubious laundry habits and a prediliction for boring the arse off everyone, but hey, he has a penis so that makes all the foregoing desirable?"

LOL! I love your description of the generic middle-aged guy. Here's mine: "reasonably tall, thin, barely any grey at all (at age 56), lots of hair on my head, cotton underwear (some saggy, some not), reasonably disciplined laundry habits, and hey, I have a penis, but I was tortured for years with doubts about my desirability, starting way back when I was, oh, maybe 14 years old. Having a penis wasn't enough, Heartbroken!!! I was deeply afraid that I was too thin, too shy, and not macho enough for the girls. I was afraid that my glasses would put them off, so I got contact lenses. I was afraid that they'd think I was too serious (they did, as a matter of fact). I was afraid that they'd be interested in more macho, popular guys (they were). I was afraid they would like loudmouthed, aggressive assholes better than a quiet, serious guy in search of true love (and this often proved true...but not invariably, I am happy to say)."

My description diverges a bit from yours, yes?

I'm writing all this cos I can't sleep, and I'm having some fun...your post really gave me a lot to think about.

Let's see. Hmmm. What else?

"All the good ones got snaffled long ago"(?) Yeah, probably. One can say the same of the good women, if one is inclined to be cynical about it.

"men not in relationships are generally (sexually and mentally) wankers" Hey, c'mon! I can call people names too, ya know. Bleagh! Phooey to you. I will respond by saying, look...most of the men who ARE in relationships with women are wankers. It's just a matter of averages. Us non-relationship guys are no worse, specially if we chose to be single. Maybe we're just not blind conformists who do what everyone told us to.

Internet romance? I do NOT recommend wooing people by way of a computer screen...but who am I to say? I know some happy couples who did it that way and lucked out. I know others who had the opposite experience entirely. I have my doubts about it.

Midlife crisis? Middle-aged men revert to being teenagers because they see their mortality looming up fast and they panic. They figure it's their last chance for the elusive happiness that they were TOLD they would find with a woman, back when they were impressionable little boys. Everyone told them that...books, movies, TV shows, their parents...what were they supposed to think? Now the poor fellow is getting old and grey and bald, his sexual energy is lessening year by year, his skin is getting wrinkly, his eyesight is declining, and he thinks, "Yikes! What have I done with all the time? I was promised not just happiness, but total ecstasy and fulfillment for life with the woman of my dreams. It still hasn't happened! I've only got a few years left! Gotta find that woman!!!"

It's sad. He was never told to look in the right place for his true happiness: inside himself in his own deepest heart of hearts...and in all the myriad of relationships that life presents to him along the way...not in just the one exclusive, sexually centered little domestic entanglement with the one exclusive goddess/whore of the fantastic and very unrealistic dream that was foisted upon him.

(My apologies to those of you who feel that you have indeed found her...may you be blessed.)

I think that about covers it.

G'night.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: andi
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:14 AM

If a man does not have enough respect for you to wait until YOU are comfortable and willing to have sex, then he is not worth having.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 11:42 PM

Guest:

My, my -- well spoken and honestly too. My compliments and sympathies.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 11:19 PM

Hobbitwoman,
So I am lead to understand from my reading.
According to my other literature, were I a gnome they wouldn't even try to potty train me for another 80 years or so.
Good thing I'm human then!

Ladies, if plastic, batteries and chocolate can meet all your needs then I would be the first to wish you well on your solo flights. I would however ask that you not brand all of us males based on your, so far, bad experiences.

I guess I am truly a hopeless romantic in thinking that there is a perfect someone out there for each of us. I used to think mine was sitting in a rice paddy in China somewhere. So I'm a cynical hopeless romantic!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST, someone you have yet to meet
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 10:54 PM

An Open Letter To My (potential) Friend and Lover

All of us are little more than ignorant dolts who are trying to figure out how to live our respective lives. No heterosexual male totally understands what it is like to be a female or to think like one. The reverse is also true. Clues are few and unreliable. We all stumble our way through our relationships, often wishing there would be an epiphany through which the mysteries would be revealed. This miracle never happens, although vague glimpses sometimes come into view. Without additional guidance, what we are left with are contrived rules that are filled with exceptions, contradictions, paradoxes and ironies. They seem to create more problems than they solve and give almost no insight at all to the basic differences between us. And so it remains that the only way to keep from offending each other or hurting each other is through communication. Frank, straightforward communication helps me to understand your needs and concerns and helps you to understand mine. If you don't tell me what is on your mind, I am almost certainly destined to cause you some manner of discomfort. When you try to examine the reasoning behind my behaviour or demeanor, you quickly realize that you just can't imagine. You can't imagine because you are not of the same sex as well as because, more than likely, I have not communicated with you well enough for you to begin to understand. Again, the reverse is also often the case. I sometimes find that I cannot, for the life of me, understand what I did to offend, to hurt or to puzzle you.

I am writing you to ask that you try harder to communicate with me. I promise I will do the same. However, we both must realize that there will be times when we will do or say something that simply won't fit within the thinking of the other. We must realize that we cannot possibly be in sync much of the time and that we are sure to encounter difficult issues because of it. You are no more likely to totally understand me than I am to totally understand you. But if we make a genuine effort toward honest communication, we can shorten the gap enough to be able to enjoy each other for a long time to come.

At the root of this is that we must learn to be in touch with ourselves. I can't begin to tell you how I feel if I don't recognize it myself. You can't tell me what you want from me until you are in touch with your own feelings. It is my duty to you and yours to me to examine what is deep within and to express it openly. It is through this process that I hope you and I can set aside the rules and assumptions and create our very own framework for our relationship.

To say "I love you" is to say that I cherish all that you are and that I want to give to you as much as I can of what you think of as good. The first part is easy. The rest is something I cannot do without honest communication from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: MAG
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 08:55 PM

My first love was a gut-wrenching, soul searing, shattering experience -- sent me (literally) screaming into the arms of the women's movement -- only good thing I got out of it.

I've met a lotta nice guys here on the 'Cat. Nice guys do restorie one's faith in the other half of the species.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 08:47 PM

Thanks, Chief...if he comes along, fine, but I'm happy as is. Oh, and btw - 37 is NOT middle-aged! You've got a way to go before you reach middle aged. Why, in the Shire, you'd not be allowed to cross the street alone at age 37 - that is, if we had to worry about such things! ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Middle Aged Man
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM

My experiences, after I was divorced and started dating, were that women who were dating were pretty agressively interested in the physical aspect of things--men are too--Dating is about looking for love, romance, and all that other stuff--maybe for a lifetime, but also, maybe just for a little fling--

The thing is, when you meet someone, you either feel the chemistry or you don't--you are under no obligation to feel or do anything-- but when the chemistry is there, the good sense and practicality go out the window, and things tend to move real fast--If you are thinking that you want to wait six months, then you really are out of touch----not with the world, but with yourself--

It sounds like you are not romantically interested in this person--nothing wrong with that at all--maybe he isn't right for you, or you are not ready for a new romance, or you need to move your life in a direction that is not based on your relationship with a man--

The problem is that you've got this guy interested in you when you are not interested in him, and, worse, you are not recognizing that you are not interested, and are thinking that it has to do with your "being out of touch with the way things are today" or some such stuff--

First thing to do is tell the guy that whatever he is feeling, it isn't happening for you, and so there is not going to be any sex. Try not to make too big a deal out of it, but be crystal clear--

Next thing is to sit down and figure out if you really want to be dating at all--it doesn't sound like you are ready to me, and if you keep "dating" when you aren't ready for the expectations, you'll end up with more problems like this one, and worse--

If you want to spend time with men without the pressure,   get involved in a group activity like bowling or basket weaving, or singing folk music, and if someone wants to have a drink, make it a group thing--That way you can have fun without any awkward moments--

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:33 PM

HB's post just arrived here on the planet Zog by sub-ether implicate waveform. The general consensus is that it is touching, mystifying, and as heartbreaking as it is heartbroken.   We'd like to propose a contract for serial installments of the whoole story in greater detail, in order to know what lessons might be learned therefrom.

Please forward your address in the Greek islands so we can forward a contract.

A,

Freelance Translation Coordinator
"Foggy Translation Inclirprated"
Zog/Mars and Mars/Venus Translations Cheap...
Planet Zog

"If it doesn't make sense, get Foggy!"

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:30 PM

I was referring to your first post, Ellenpoly. The one about the benefits of being older and being true to the person you have become, not the one about 'batteries and chocolate'. Heck, now I know about galoshes and henna and bassoons.....who needs anything more?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:30 PM

Just to come back into the thread.
I met my wife 28 years ago, and went to bed with her on the 2nd date.
We have never strayed in all those years, and we are lucky to have 2 daughters.
That puts paid to a few comments about waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,guest, once burned, twice shy
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:29 PM

For those who are broken-hearted it is probably easier to cure
or re-bound from than the broken-spirit which results from being
a victim of being raped.
In either case, hold your head up,and guard your heart and be careful
not to get into situations you may regret.
Some guys ruin it for all the others.
Trust is a hard thing to gain or earn after it has been broken.
Sorry to hear your heart was broken, but i hope that you will not give
up and that a better situation will present itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:08 PM

Sincere thanks, all of you, for giving me more to think about and also making me laugh about this ! Galoshes and henna tattoos...wow, what else have I been missing all my life ?

I am still going with my gut feelings and instinct on this. You summed up exactly how I feel, Ellenpoly. I come from the same kind of background of experiences when I was young, and I learned from the mistakes I made. I think maybe that is what makes me so determined now. Thanks for your post: you put it very well.

SueB: whoever wrote that Rule Book is spot on ! Unwittingly, I had been applying Rule #15 and it has had the exact effect described. Surprise, surprise, the man in question came to see me today and I think I should now rename myself "Hot, Bothered and Bewildered" ;) I must add that this man originates from North Africa and I think I have quite a challenge here. He is more than likely thinking the same. Bargaining over couscous in the souk would be a piece of cake by comparison. Time...or six months...or less ;) will tell.

Hot, Bothered and Bewildered

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:48 PM

GUEST: Heart-broken,

Change hands; you'll think it's someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,harpgirl again
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:39 PM

Ellenpoly, as my son would say, "I did not need to know that!" LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:37 PM

Hey GUEST Heartbroken,
WOW! I have to admit that everything you said could have been written by me on almost any day in the past few years...but I do have some wonderful men friends who I've never had (or in some cases, contemplated having) sex with, and primarily because of them, I haven't given up entirely on that end of the gender pool...But, well, I am pretty darned contented with a fresh batch of C batteries, some home-made erotica, and chocolate in some form or other for "afters"..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:37 PM

Oh yes, and I can think of at least three Mudcat men whom HB could be referring to, and several more as many Mudcat women who could have written as Heart-Broken!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:36 PM

Oh, and Hobbitwoman,
Here's hoping for a nice rotund gentleman hobbit with nicely manicured and groomed hairy feet to come your way soon!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:32 PM

GUEST, Heart-broken,

Bad relationship, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:28 PM

...my cookie's gone now too at the moment but I did not write as Heart-Broken in case anyone thinks I did! LOL I'm still waiting for another BillD/JoeOffer/RogerinBaltimore/Bee-dubya-ell/Rapaire/JerryRassumusen/ArtThieme, etc etc to come into my little life...Hell, I'd even go for a McGrath if he would give me an hour of silence every day! hahahahaha

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:17 PM

I posted as "guest" (6th post). I deleted cookies the other day and forgot the forum would do that.

I still believe in what I said, regardless of the other opinions presented.
Life is short? All the better to savour the desire and other intangible feelings leading up to making love. As a middle age(?)(37) male I find others constantly flirting with me because of the ring on my finger and really don't know how to react. Are they joking or serious? I suppose it doesn't matter because I'm just a faithful old dog anyway.

This isn't a game. This isn't a food item with an expiration date.
Making love is a selfless "miracle" between two lovers where each should be giving themselves to the other while trying their best to love and please the other.

I believe the best way to express what I'm trying to say is with that great line from a Who song:

"One and one don't make two, One and one make one"

Call me a Southern Gentleman or a hopeless romantic, its how I feel.