BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 09:57 AM

"Good heavens Jim, it would appear that both Keith A and I seem to have been waiting for you to substantiate a hell of a lot more."
Where - you've had plenty of information with links - you have provided none - only unsubstantiated declarations.
See how you get on with that last lot of "irrelevant" information.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 10:02 AM

Jim, I said,
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."

I have quoted three Irish historians who substantiate my statement that Irish schoolchildren have been brainwashed to wrongly blame Britain.

I stand by that quote.

The previous quotes that you attributed to me, and put in quotes, were made up by you, and I reject them.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 10:43 AM

As far as the subject of the thread goes your "information" does rather fall into the category of "irrelevant twaddle". Long, rambling, boring and poorly presented script containing very little of importance. History is made up of events that actually happened, not events that you think happened.

By the bye Jim had Jill and Leon Uris turned their gaze on the establishment and growth of any industrialised city during the same period in Britain, France, Germany or the USA it would all have revealed a similar picture.

Now how is the work related to all"those German spies" coming along. Mind you having made up so much shit it must be rather difficult for you to keep track of all the stuff you've invented and who is supposed to have said it.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 11:07 AM

"I have quoted three Irish historians who substantiate my statement"
You said you didn't say it - you lied.
You have cited none who said any such thing - whoever said it would ab a racist.
If you7 believe it, yo must be able to produce examples of manifestations of that hatred - you refuse to do so - you make my point perfectly.
""irrelevant twaddle"."
Yeh - sure it is - sorry you find it "boring" - Keith isn't interested in Irish history either, so there you go.
"industrialised city during the same period in Britain, France, Germany or the USA"
Their researches cover from the 1600s to the mid-1970s - can't get any more comprehensive than that.
Now you really are blowing for tugs - but at least its entertaining.
Don't forget that evidence of hatred Keith - missing it already!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM

Jim, the brainwashing of Irish schoolkids to keep hate alive is attested to by these Irish historians.

Richardson said, "So we got a very biased view of Irish history which we took as gospel. A very Republican view of Irish history, and that was the view I held."

She said she would have joined IRA in a heartbeat.
That is an expression of hatred.

"I tried to think in the context of other kids, and who didn't have the advantage I had in getting a (university) education and questioning everything I'd been taught. How they hold on to these ideas and end up joining terrorist groups."

Kinealy states that children were fed "nationalist myths" as history.

O'Callaghan states that the children were "indoctrinated" with "anti-British" propaganda. "Indoctrinated" is another word for "brainwashing" Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 12:47 PM

"Jim, the brainwashing of Irish schoolkids to keep hate alive is attested to by these Irish historians."
You denied saying it - you lied, now your back defending it.
"Kinealy states that children were fed "nationalist myths" as history."
During the "Fee State" period - I've read her book - you haven't.
I will ask you this every time you make up this nonsense
If the Irish hate the British, how did that manifest itself.
The IRA urrent IRA activity was by Northern Irish under British rule and were the result of Partition and ending British rule, not a hatred of Britain
It is appallingly stupid and dishonest to claim the Irish hated the British if you are unable to describe how that "hatred" shows itself, in fact it is hate-mongering
So go on - describe how the Irish hate Britain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM

You denied saying it - you lied, now your back defending it.

No I did not.
I stand by it.
I denied the previous, faked quotes you posted.

"Kinealy states that children were fed "nationalist myths" as history."
During the "Fee State" period - I've read her book - you haven't.

It came from this essay, and she makes clear it continued to recent if not present times.
http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/
Richardson wrote of her experience as a child in the seventies, and O'Callaghan also says it contued to recent if not present times.

If the Irish hate the British, how did that manifest itself.

Some Irish must inevitably hate Britain if they believe all the lies fed to them as children.
Professor Richardson did. In her case it was manifested as a desire to join IRA.
There is a wide spectrum of ways in which hate can be manifested, and I am not getting in to it.

I said, " generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."

That is substantiated by the historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 02:11 PM

"No I did not.
I stand by it."
Now you're lying about lying
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
"You put it in quotes, but I never said it."
How stupid an you get?
The solution is simple.
Do you believe the Irish hate Britons?
If they do, how does that manifest itself?
A failure to answer either of these is proof that you are lying again - you are telling nasty lies about an entire nation and about schoolchildren - that is despicable - even for you (perhaps that last bit wads overstated)
Now answer please
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 02:38 PM

Their researches cover from the 1600s to the mid-1970s - can't get any more comprehensive than that.

Utter bullshit "their" researches particularly his as a novelist and writer of fiction is superficial and barely scratches the surface compared to any historian who specialises in a particular period who will devote his entire life to the study of that period. "Their researches" covers what they saw as being necessary to cover what work of fiction was going to be written for commercial gain - as the primary market for this epic on Oirland would be the good ol' US of A - you would not even have to read it to predict what slant would be put on the story in order for it to sell - one thing for certain objectivity would not enter into either the research or writing of the story.

"Kinealy states that children were fed "nationalist myths" as history." - (Factual quote of what Kinealy said)

During the "Fee State" period - I've read her book

And as per usual with you, you obviously haven't understood a single bloody word of it.

Now tell us all about the "Obscene" profit made on all those Poppies. (Relevance: Something else that you read and completely misunderstood). Made for £9 a piece and sold for £25 each with all the proceeds going to Charity - £15 million in fact so what "obscene" profit? Who made it? where did it go?

Tell us the date Kitchener was forced to resign - another thing you completely misunderstood.

Tell us how with no British troops present and no British artillery in Dublin at the time the British were responsible for starting the fires in Sackville Street.

Tell us how driving at least 150,000 people from their homes in the Irish Free State causing them to flee, often with only what they wore and what they could carry, between 1922 and 1926 could not be considered "ethnic cleansing".

"we got a very biased view of Irish history which we took as gospel. A very Republican view of Irish history, and that was the view I held" - Richardson. She said that she would have joined the IRA in a heartbeat - that the same IRA who believed that the only way to unite Ireland was by force? By coercing fellow Irishmen into their union? Keith A is perfectly correct that is an expression of hatred and it is patently obvious that you have swallowed every anti-British "myth" going hook-line-and-sinker.

Another Irish historian, Ruth Dudley Edwards (Whose long-time crusade has been against the IRA, which has destroyed tens of thousands of lives and made everything worse - I couldn't agree more), draws her students and readers attention to the fact that while in school in Ireland Irish history as taught seemed to stop in 1921 and then mysteriously start up again in 1937. Any explanation for that Jim - the Civil War just didn't happen, the economic policies pushed by de Valera ruined the country and caused thousands to flee abroad and emigrate just to make a living not examined. But there again Dev hated dissenting voices didn't he. So do you to the extent that you have to make stuff up and put words in people's mouths in order for you introduce crap to support your highly biased, bigoted and Anglophobic views.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 03:41 PM

More denials - no evidence - your meglomania appears to know no bounds.
And nothing from Keith - now you are both lying - offcial
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 04:04 PM

Do you believe the Irish hate Britons?
If they do, how does that manifest itself?

As I said, some Irish must inevitably hate Britain if they believe all the lies fed to them as children.
Professor Richardson did. In her case it was manifested as a desire to join IRA.
There is a wide spectrum of ways in which hate can be manifested, and I am not getting in to it.

I said, " generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."

That is substantiated by the historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 01:55 AM

I take it then Jim that you didn't watch that documentary on the IRA's border campaign of 1956 to 1962. But of course you wouldn't because in the nice cosy world of Jim Carroll it never happened - and you've got the brass neck to accuse people of denying fact.

Unfortunately the documentary does exist, as do the interviews:

"Was it worth it? No in the final analysis I'd have to say it wasn't" - Tony Meade

In relation to the activities of the PIRA later in "The Troubles" - "What was done was unconscionable"

The inspiring example that led to all this according to the volunteers interviewed? The seven men who signed the 1916 Proclamation.

History is the study of what actually happened, not the study of things that you personally think happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 03:47 AM

"As I said, some Irish must inevitably hate Britain if they believe all the lies fed to them as children."
Only some Keith, after, how did you put it "generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive." ?
That's not much of a result for generations of brainwashing, is it.
Do you know any of these people or can you describe what form this hatred takes?
No you *******can't, because it doesn't exist; it is a figment of your twisted imagination - an invention on your part.
Yes - there is inter-religious on the island of Ireland - we'll be getting a display of it in couple of weeks time - in Derry and Belfast and Drumcree...... in British Ireland.
The Irish as a group, are the most friendly, hospitable and welcoming people I have ever met - to Britons and to all visitors - the are noted for it - 'cead mile failte' means exactly what it says - one hundred thousand welcomes.
You have been unable to give one general example of Irish hatred towards the British - one speck of evidence of your claims - so once again you lied, you made it all up for some reason, I suggest because of your hatred of the Irish rather than the other way around - sure - we know 'some of your best friends are Irish' - of course they are.
The Irish I know are gregarious, friendly and outward looking - welcoming to strangers from anywhere in the world - a far cry from my experiences in London (you have been given the figures of admitted racism in Britain)
Doesn't mean racism doesn't exist here, of course it does, but it does not impinge on our daily lives as it did in Britain, where, to my shame, I often avoided expressing my views on racism for fear of causing an argument.
Irish kids are bilingual from schooldays and many will take on other languages when they leave school - off the top of my head I can think of youngsters who are conversant in German, Greek, Japanese, Arabic, French, Russian, Czech..... mainly working kids from a farming background - beats the little Englander attitude that appears to ooze from every pore of you pair of bigots.
They will use those skills to travel the globe to seek work and fresh experiences while back home, you are erecting walls to keep foreigners out and voting on whether Britain wishes to be part of Europe.
Your schizophrenic invention of generations of brainwashed kids was bizarre in every sense.
First you made your hate-filled statement, then you denied making it and accused me of inventing it, now you are back in full-swing, hating away.
You claim a hate-filled Irish people, yet you refuse to give examples - so, as I said, you made it all up.
I don't think I have ever come across two more arrogant, detesting, national-self-important, anachronistic bigots in my life, still fighting the battles of the Empire and waving the flag for a Britain that no longer has any industry to speak of and is totally dependent on buying abroad, and politically has become the tail of the U.S. dog, to be wagged to order.
British people are, in general wonderful to live among, talented, humane (if somewhat reserved in places) and generous and by and large, tolerant of most things (you pair seem to be misfits), but boy, are they being given the shitty end of the stick by our politicians!
This has been one of the most distastefully racist-generated arguments I have ever experienced (slightly in front of those on The Famine) - you have openly lied and distorted, you have dismissed documented facts and have refused to give any of your own, you personally have admitted having neither knowledge of or interest in Irish history, yet you have kept up your spray of vitriol against the Irish - you are both microcosms of Imperial Britain at its very worst.
I would ask you again to provide examples of the hate-filled Irish towards the British people, but I know I would be wasting my time.
I'll have a quick shufti to see if I can find any worthwhile information for you to ignore, then I'm gone - another nice day here and some nice people to meet to get rid the foul taste you pair have left in my mouth.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 04:24 AM

Jim, I have no experience of Irish schools.
I learned from the work of historians that it has "indoctrinated" generations of children with "anti-British propaganda."
How can you claim that has had no effect?
Of course it has.
We have Professor Richardson own testimony of how it made her want to join IRA.

It is easy to find other examples of hatred.
The random machine-gunning of diners in a London restaurant by an IRA unit.
The recent murder of an Irish prison officer because he was employed by UK state.

I have substantiated the "indoctrination" by quoting three historians.
How many have you found Jim?
Is it none?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 05:16 AM

"Jim, I have no experience of Irish schools."
Then how dare you claim they are all brainwashed on the basis of a few out of context comments by people who have failed to perovide a qualification for what you claim they said?
You haven't read Kineally's book yet you continue to claim something that she does not believe - I have read her book - you call me a liar.
"How can you claim that has had no effect?"
How can you claim it has or if that it happened if you can give no example of it.
That ought to be enough to convince you you are wrong.
You are more interested in your hate-driven agenda - yours is the hate - not the Irish
Prove me wrong and tell my how that "hate" manifests itself.
The IRA wasw a product of the British partitioning of Ireland - not the Irish education system - todays IRA are mainly made up of British citizens living and having been educated in The North.
You can only substantiate historians if you have read them and have understood fully what they are saying - Kineally and Diarmuid Ferriter's baptism of fire proved that.
To say the Irish have been "branwashed" is aa squalid a racist attack as they come, aimed at adults and children, to deny you said what you said and accuse me of making it up is blatantly dishonest and now to come back and say the same thing is stupid beyond words.
You are beyond a joke.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 05:24 AM

Incidentally Keith - I don't rely on historians for my knowledge of Irish education or whether the Irish hate Britain - especially ones I haven't read, like you.
Many of my family are Irish and have undergone an Irish education; I've lived among Irish people all of my life, relatives, friends close associates at work and with my music.
I have now lived in Ireland for nearly twenty years
I have had a lifelong interest in Irish history (you have confessed you have none) - I've quoted chunks from our books (which you have chosen to ignore - that's how much respect you have for historians)
How dare you attempt to counteract that with your handful of cut-'n-pastes?
Produce your evidence of hate or stop this distasteful nonsense
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 07:15 AM

The IRA wasw a product of the British partitioning of Ireland

Nope the IRA was the product of Sinn Fein's declaration of war in January 1919 and the product of Eamon de Valera's Civil War - Irishmen fighting Irishmen, one group attempting to coerce the other to "their" way.

The track record of the IRA so far has been:

Easter Rising - Failed

Irish War of Independence - Stalemate that resulted in a Peace Treaty that brought about the creation of a 26 county Republic of Ireland and a six county Northern Ireland that wanted to be part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Irish Civil War - Failed

1939-1940 Bombing Campaign - Failed

1956-1962 Border Campaign - Failed

1969-1998 "Troubles" - Failed

Because of the path taken by the Republican Nationalists since 1914 a united Ireland is further away today than it was 102 years ago.

The teaching of myths lays the ground work, proof that it works? Just read your own posts Jim Carroll, neither Keith A or myself have referred to any section of the population as "Blow-In Newcomers" who have no rights - you on the other hand have.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 07:52 AM

Get some facts to back your claims - done with your uncorroborated, hate-driven theories.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 07:55 AM

British Empire - failed.
British attempt to subdue Ireland - failed
Attempts of a pair of hate driven clown to make a case - failed miserably
Attepts to denigrate the Irish people with their racist attacks - failed
Get some facts to back your claims - done with your uncorroborated, hate-driven theories.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 10:52 AM

Now having a day off from decorating and took a walk on a local island which can be reached at low tide across a causeway. Didn,t leave the pub till 2.30 this morning when the music was still going strong.

As usual I have nothing but kindness and hospitality from a wonderful nation of people.

More music tonight and then back up a ladder tomorrow with a brush and roller !!

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 11:16 AM

Very pleased to hear that you are enjoying yourself Raggy - long may you continue to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 11:43 AM

Now let us see what history according to Jim Carroll tells us:

1: That the Irish Volunteers who largely supported the Home Rule Bill that they were formed to defend did not split with the advent of the First World War to become the National Volunteers (Redmond Faction which comprised 92.5% of the movement) and the Irish Volunteers ( the IRB Faction which comprised only 7.5% of the movement)

2: That some 210,000 Irishmen volunteered to serve in the British Army during the First World War did not represent any significant political faction while the 1,500 people who Pearse and Connolly lied to and completely hoodwinked into joining their "Blood Sacrifice" somehow do represent the political views of the people of Ireland at that time. Jim absolutely deplores the blood sacrifice made to preserve freedom, justice, and liberty in France, but totally supports the betrayal of the men who foolishly followed Connelly and Pearse in Easter 1916.

3: That the Irish Volunteers of 1916 did not become the IRA of 19th January 1919

4: That the IRA who fought the war of independence were also the IRA that fought the Civil War - Nationalist against Nationalist - might is right, fortunately for all they lost.

Jim wants us all to believe that the IRA only became the IRA to fight the Unionists and unite Ireland - utter bloody hogwash and I do not need a single quote, a single link or any vast log boring and pointless screed to back that up - all you have to do is look at where we are today.

History consists of events that actually happened, it does not consist of events that you only think happened. Of all the people who took up the gun in Ireland in 1913 the Republican Nationalists were the only ones to actually through their own choice use them and to what result? A united independent Ireland is further away today than it was 102 years ago - FACT - haven't they done well.

Hope that you have had fun "celebrating" all that bloodshed Jim - it after all got them nowhere as far as a united independent Ireland goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 11:45 AM

Not sure where you are Raggy and how long you're around, but there's a nice singing session in Kinvarra - 'tother side of Galway City, on Tuesday Night - Greene's Bar - at least one Mudcatter is a regular.
Starts late (10ish) and goes on til' the landlady gets fed up.
Worth the effort if you're in the mood.
Not much hatred down there either.
Did you know the late maker of folk films, Philip Donnellan, used to own Mason's Island, off the coast from Carna?
Not a lot of people know that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 01:50 PM

how dare you claim they are all brainwashed on the basis of a few out of context comments by people

They were not out of context.
I provided links to the sources of the comments so that they could be seen in their original, intended context.
Your accusation is shown to be false.

You haven't read Kineally's book yet you continue to claim something that she does not believe - I have read her book - you call me a liar.

You make a liar of yourself Jim.
Here is the History Ireland article where she plainly states exactly what I said she did.
http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/

How can you claim it has or if that it happened if you can give no example of it.

I did give examples.

Prove me wrong and tell my how that "hate" manifests itself.

I did.

To say the Irish have been "branwashed" is aa squalid a racist attack as they come,

Then all those historians are guilty of it.
I just quoted them.

Produce your evidence of hate or stop this distasteful nonsense

I have quoted three historians who state that Irish schoolchildren have been "indoctrinated" with "anti-British propaganda."

One of them stated that her own indoctrination made her want to join IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 03:22 PM

This has begone beyond an irritating joke to something far more sinister.
IF THE IRISH HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED TO HATE THE ENGLISH, WHERE IS THAT HATRED? Are you seriously suggesting that we are living in an 'Invasion of the Bodysnatchers' world where everybody is not really what they seem and they have really all been conditioned to hate us?
Do the people I grew up with really hate me because I am English?
You are now totally insane - your obsessive hatred has probably made you so
Has it ever occurred to you that it's not the English the Irish hate, just people like you to who drench them in racist abuse - I've often wondered why the Irish don't hate the English considering the centuries of abuse they have been put through - and you are displaying a form of that abuse now.
There are Irish people who contribute to this thread, I know several of them personally and I am aware that they share my interest in Irish history.
Have we all been brainwashed to think alike and hate the English like ***** zombies?
One of the things we had to get used to when we became regular visitors to Ireland was the fact that we were surrounded by practicing Christians - while I didn't share their beliefs, I always admired those who reflected the "love thy fellow man" teachings of their religion - especially the older ones - you appear to be totally devoid of such an attitude.
You claim to be a Christian - have you been brainwashed to behave in the way that no other Christian I have ever met does?
You want to understand what those writers really say, then I suggest you overcome your "disinterest" and read their books.
You want to prove that the Irish have been bnrainwashed to hate, then tell us how that hatred manifests itself.
I watched with a degree of grim amusement when you told Fergie; "
Subject: RE: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
-21 Apr 16 - 12-12 PM Sorry Fergie, but the fact is that none of your points stand up.
I "dismissed" them only by showing them to be false.
You have been taken in by propaganda in place of hard history"
He had not long completed his CD at the time and I know he had put a fair time researching the songs on it, yet you, who have stated quite clearly that you have never read a book on Ireland and have no interest in doing so, could make such a crassly arrogant statement.
You are now abusing me in exactly the same way, and my family, friends and neighbours.
I suggest you stop this NOW - this abusive racism has gone far enough.
If you don't, I will be tempted to ask Joe to have you removed - this forum doesn't need people who dish up this sort of hateful garbage.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 04:03 PM

It never stops.

Neither one of you ever shuts up, and I'd be happy if Max could kick the both of you the fuck off Mudcat. It ain't gonna happen though.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 02:08 AM

That is grossly unfair Jeri
As far as I'm concerned this subject is important, it cetainly interests me.
At the present time, the whole of Ireland is celebrating what it regards to be one of the most important events in its history; the equivalent of, say, the 200th anniversary of U.S. Independence, which I can remember being celebrated in London way back, with traditional musicians and singers I was then involved with.
Whether you are interested or not, others find that subject interesting, I certainly do as those who have participated in this thread and who are also celebrating it in Ireland.
Two people have decided to use this thread to attack the Irish as a race and have gone to great lengths to do this.
There is still much to be said on the subject.
Exactly the same has happened with the same two people not too long ago when the subject was The Irish Famine.
Sure - we could walk away and leave them to it - we could do that whenever any two bully boys decide to take over any subject and drive it into the ground.
That's not the way free speech works.
I have treated this subject as responsibly as I am able - I have sought out masses of information which I believe to be relevant and put it up because I believe it to be interesting.
I have not been unreasonably rude, I don't think; I am fully aware I have been in the past, but I agreed with Joe's requests and have done my best to clean up my act.
I have no idea what your interest is in this topic or if you have any at all.
You, or anybody, is perfectly free to join in this discussion - I desperately wish somebody else would - or you are entitled to ignore it.
You are not entitled to tell me how I should or should not make my contributions unless I have overstepped the mark - I don't believe I have here.
You are certainly not entitled to suggest that I be thrown off this forum unless you believe I have broken its rules, and certainly not in the ill-mannered and hostile way you have.
You may choose to judge the merits of these arguments for yourself - other comments I have read of yours elsewhere suggest you are perfectly capable of doing so - but I will not be lumped in with a pair of trolls without comment.
This argument, as far as I am concerned, has now taken the form of crude and obvious racism against an entire people
It may not worry you, it certainly does me.
I apologies if I have expressed myself too bluntly - I now find myself far angrier than I can ever remember being on this forum, or anywhere for that matter.
I sincerely hope that the administrators of this thread do not close this thread and allow the culprits to get away with their behavour - that would be, in my opinion, the death of free speech on Mudcat.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 02:42 AM

"To a large extent, the popular understanding of the Famine in Ireland still follows a traditional, nationalist paradigm. Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border, which itself arose out of particular historical circumstances. In 1922, for example, the Free State government instructed history teachers that pupils should be 'imbued with the ideals and aspirations of such men as Thomas Davis and Patrick Pearse' and that they should emphasise 'the continuity of the separatist idea from Tone to Pearse' (see Francis T. Holohan, 'History teaching in the Irish Free State 1922-35' in HI Winter 1994). In Protestant schools in Northern Ireland, Irish history was rarely part of the curriculum (see Peter Collins, 'History teaching in Northern Ireland' in HI Spring 1995). Accordingly, in many Irish schools, a heroic but simplistic view of Irish history emerged, a morality story replete with heroes and villains. This approach, however, was subsequently challenged by the Irish academic establishment. In the 1930s, a number of leading Irish academics—following the lead of British historians earlier in the century—set an agenda for the study of Irish history, which placed it on a more professional and scientific basis in terms of research methods and source materials. At the same time this approach also demanded the systematic revision and challenging of received wisdoms or unquestioned assumptions. What was specific to Ireland, however, was the declared mission to challenge received nationalist myths, and by implication, although less centrally, loyalist myths. Thus, at the launch of the influential Irish Historical Studies journal in 1938, the editors stated their commitment to replace 'interpretive distortions' with 'value-free history'. To a large extent, however, this debate took place within the rarefied atmosphere of academia and failed to percolate down into the schoolrooms either north or south of the border." - Christine Kinealy

Two obvious comments here, the first is that Nationalists at the time certainly used the "Famine" for propaganda purposes and second, who here thinks it acceptable under any circumstances for a government to instruct teachers to teach a subject that should be taught factually and objectively with a deliberate political slant to it?

This did not just happen in the Irish School system, in Scotland history was taught in exactly the same simplistic way from Primary School up until the first two years of High School. Myself and my classmates were very fortunate as right from the start of High School we had an excellent History Teacher - but it is amazing how many in Scotland view any conflict in Scotland as a straightforward England v Scotland affair with England always cast in the role of villain - once you actually start studying the history of the country you find that nothing could be further from the truth. A couple of examples:

1: The Jacobite Rebellions - More Scots fought on the side of the Government than fought for the rebels (At Culloden there were more Scots fighting on the Government side than there were Scots in the Army of Charles Stuart).

2: The Clearances were introduced and driven by British Government policy in the aftermath of the '45 rebellion. In actual fact the Clearances had started much earlier and were driven by the greed of Scottish Landlords.

The 2014 Independence Referendum demonstrated how thin the veneer was, of people who pretended that anti-English comments were all just banter, hell as like it was, most of it was fuelled by ill-informed and atrociously presented history learned at an early age.

Back to Irish history - I do not believe that what was said equated to anything like - the Irish have been taught to hate the British - I think what was said was the way Irish history is taught keeps hate alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 03:06 AM

At the present time, the whole of Ireland is celebrating what it regards to be one of the most important events in its history

I thought it was commemorating the events of 1916. I would dearly like to know what there is to celebrate about the deaths of 485 people whose deaths were a pointless and unnecessary waste of human life.

Two people have decided to use this thread to attack the Irish as a race and have gone to great lengths to do this.

Really? Who are they? I would love to see quoted examples of these attacks. All I have noted have been posts attacking the mythology of the events that led up to the Easter Rising and what happened as a result of it. I have seen no attack on the Irish as a race at all - quite the opposite in fact.

we could walk away and leave them to it - we could do that whenever any two bully boys decide to take over any subject and drive it into the ground.
That's not the way free speech works.

Reading through this thread Jim, who was it that was going on about there being a "pecking order" and reminding people of where they stood in that order? Who was it that was calling for people to be thrown off and banned from posting? That was you wasn't it? Well Mr.Carroll "That's not the way free speech works." either.

Points made by you relevant to the subject of this thread have been disproven and you have responded by making up baseless allegations and firing them like buckshot from a scatter gun, when that didn't work you attempted to divert the subject matter of the thread, as I have said before if you wish to discuss the Famine then open a thread on it - you will find it rather a lonely place.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 04:02 AM

IF THE IRISH HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED TO HATE THE ENGLISH, WHERE IS THAT HATRED?

I have never made such a claim.
Why not stick to the actual quote that I stand by?

I suggest you stop this NOW - this abusive racism has gone far enough.

Then all those historians are guilty of it.
I just quoted them.

The reason I have quoted them on the long term indoctrination of school children is that it explains why so many Irish people are so uncritical of the rising that destroyed the process of independence already in effect, and led to years of conflict and death.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 04:11 AM

Not going here any more - not with you - not with Keith anyway.
We've been here before - I'd never heard of Kinealy before her name came up on the Famine thread; since then, I have read three of her books and become an ardent fan, so I haven't had to rely on hastily gathered, cut-'n-pastes to understand what she thinks.
You want to go and read what she has to say in full, fine, happy to debate it, but I have no intention of taking seriously scooped up, out of context quotes gathered to 'prove' pre-conceived opinions.
I have said what I believe in my response to Jeri - the final straw was Keith's attempts to justify the unjustifiable.
The level of your comments here is indicated to your somewhat overstated use of (as I explained) my "pecking order" joke.
You want to discuss The Easter Rising, fine, as long as you provide backup to your statements I'm happy to respond, I've already worked out your personal opinions and they don't interest me particularly.
If anybody else wishes to continue - and I hope they do - I'll carry on providing what I believe is relative information.
If not, I'm disappointed, but I see no reason to go round in circles with you pair any more.
Yoy see no reson to celebrate the deaths of 485 people (a pretty good indication of your understanding of the subject if you think that's what's being celebrated) but you were happy to celebrate the deaths of many millions of young men who were slaughtered during WW1 on several other threads - hmmmmm!!
If you have nothing new to add, "Goodbye, and thanks for the fish' as Douglas Adams once remarked.
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 05:55 AM

Perhaps it's worth explaining exactly what Kineally's position was on education, and then perhaps we can put an end to this misinterpretation.
Her basic criticism was of the 'revisionist' approach taken by many historians and taken up by the schools, particularly on The Famine.
She argues that what was taught was the effects of the Famine, not the reason for it – all those poor dead people – without explaining exactly why they were dead – the question of actual blame was never questioned, it was never under any doubt.
The British were responsible for the administration of Ireland (- no question), there was enough food being produced to feed the entire population (- no question), the warehouses were full and were locked and guarded by armed soldiers (- no question), the landlords evicted tenants who failed to pay rents and destroyed their former homes, - no question, the workhouses and relief schemes put into motion by the Peel Government, were all closed and financial support for relief was withdrawn (- no question.
In addition to this, The Russell Government, on the advice of the man in charge, Sir Charles Trevelyan, adopted a laissez faire policy of selling food at current market prices so as not to upset the economy - no question.
The famine victims were given the choice – emigrate or die – no question.
Kinealy argues that the effects were explained graphically without attempting to understand the causes or apportion blame; if hatred was generated then it was the causes that generated that hatred, not an attempt to implant it into children.
History was, as is all revisionist history, in England as well as Ireland, all about heroes and events rather than causes and consequences.
The reason this approach was adopted, as Kineally and other progressive historians have pointed out is that after the Famine Britain became the most attractive destination for Irish emigrants – no long journey and the opportunity to return home in relative ease if the opportunity arose.
Up to the 150th anniversary of the Famine in 1995, there was only one major work on the famine, 'The Great Hunger', written by Englishwoman, Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith, that was in general, revisionist, touching only briefly on the laissez faire, policy but never attempting to explain it in depth .
The Irish establishment did not wish to strangle the Golden Goose by drawing attention to Britain's culpability over the outcome of the Famine so the subject was avoided – for two centuries.
Kineally says that, prior to her own studies of the Famine she didn't realise the depth of blame due to Britain for the outcome of the famine – pretty well the case all round – now, she says, she is convinced that not only was Britain to blame, but that it was possibley used as a cynical attempt to solve 'The Irish Question' .
1995, Coogan's reproduction of Trevelyan's letter and all the other information that has been unearthed since has turned things around.
Exactly the same thing is now happening to the information we now have on Easter Week.
It is the facts of history that have generated any hatred that might have been, not the misinterpretation of that history or the avoidance of pointing fingers (revisionism)
If I have misunderstood Kineally's objective then I will be happy to be corrected by somebody who hs read her books – not by somebody who opportunistically uses soundbites to win arguments.
If anybody wishes to claim that Irish kids have been brainwashed to hate Britain, then they have to explain how that hatred manifests itself otherwise they are obviously telling lies – whoever they misquote.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 06:05 AM

"for two centuries."
Correction - a century and a half
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 06:27 AM

"You want to discuss The Easter Rising, fine, as long as you provide backup to your statements I'm happy to respond"

What statements of fact that I have made do you require back up to?

1: You said that the Home Rule Bill of 1914 was defeated by the Tories and the House of Lords. Keith A and myself pointed out to you that not only was the Bill not defeated it was passed into law on the 18th September 1914 when it received Royal Assent. At no time at all have you conceded that your original contention was wrong.

It is not required to put up substantiation for any of that as it is a simple matter of Parliamentary and historical record - just Google Irish Home Rule Bill 1914. If you cannot do that or are not prepared to do that in order to keep a dearly held "myth" alive then please have the honesty and integrity to admit it.

2: You said that in the time between the 1914 Home Rule Bill becoming an Act and the Easter Rising the Bill was amended, altered and changed by the British Government. It was pointed out to you that under Parliamentary procedure that what you stated was impossible. To amend an Act of Parliament then a Bill has to be introduced and be debated in Parliament - Again a simple matter of record - no such Amending Bills were ever introduced or passed in the period. If you think alterations were made then it is up to you to provide the proof that amendments were made and added as clauses to the Act.

3: You rather emotively made the statement that the Curragh Incident in March 1914 constituted an act of military aggression. Keith A and myself pointed out to you that there was no act of military aggression committed, and the record shows that there was no "Mutiny" by any stretch of the imagination, not one single order given was disobeyed and that the preventative measures to ensure that arms depots in the North of Ireland were secure.

4: You stated that the Republican Nationalists had the support and backing of the people of Ireland. Keith A, myself and others have pointed out the fallacy of that statement. The rising was the idea of a tiny clique, within an clique, within a clique. Most of the men who turned out on that Easter Week-end in 1916 hadn't the foggiest notion of what they had assembled to do. Those responsible for planning the rising did not even inform their own organisation as to what they were about to do.

5: You have stated that the IRB and those looking to mount the insurrection did not collude with the Germans in order to bring their plans to fruition. Simple matter of record indicates that all the evidence points to the fact that from 4th September 1914 they undoubtedly did collude with the Germans.

6: You have stated that the British used Heavy Artillery in Dublin to suppress the Rising. Keith A and myself pointed out to you and provided links whereby you could check for yourself that at no time at all was there any Heavy Artillery present in Ireland at that time. No concession on your part that your original statement was wrong.

7: You stated quite clearly that it was British artillery fire that started the fires that gutted Sackville Street. Keith A and myself pointed out to you that the fires on Sackville Street were started before British troops or artillery arrived in Dublin. Links were given of work undertaken for this years commemorative programmes by RTE and Boston College that substantiate that fires were started before the arrival of British troops and artillery, those links also indicate that the fires started on the 24th April 1916 burned unchecked for 40 hours before any artillery fire fell on rebel positions on Sackville Street.

8: You stated that permanent partition was guaranteed to the Northern Irish Unionists by the British Government. Keith A and myself have pointed out to you that no such guarantee was ever given and you have not been able to provide any evidence that such a guarantee was ever given. Substantiation that no such guarantee was ever given comes in the form of only temporary time limited partition being included in any Government of Ireland Act.

The list of your ill-informed and incorrect suppositions is massive, the above are only eight examples.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 07:11 AM

Respond to what I have said with verified facts if you want further discussion - simple as that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 07:41 AM

jim,
scooped up, out of context quotes

Simply not true and utterly dishonest.
The quotes were given along with a link to the whole article to show that thhey were given in their original, intended context.


Perhaps it's worth explaining exactly what Kineally's position was on education,

Reading what she actually says in her article published in the most pre-eminent Irish History journal, trumps your "explanation" of what you wish she had said Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 08:04 AM

Ah Jim, so you cannot detail a single thing that Keith A or I have said that you can dispute.

See that you are still trying to steer the thread away from the complete and utter balls up that the Easter Rising was. Why is that Jim?

Still say that everyone in Ireland is "celebrating" the events of 1916?

From the Department of the Taoiseach website

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 08:10 AM

"
Simply not true and utterly dishonest."
I've given you my assessment of Kineally - respond to it - as far as I'm concerned it proves you hopelessly wrong.
Do not accuse me of being dishonest again - a reminder of your own list of dishonesties
What you denied saying:
"generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive." ?"
What you actually said:
"generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive." ?
You have repeated this some dozen times and you still claim I am not responding to what you actually say - another dishonesty.
I have asked you to describe how "brainwashed" Irish hatred manifests itself and have given you a list of alternatives
"If the Irish hate Britain, how does that hatred manifest itself - letter bombs, suicide bombers, hate mail, stones through British windows, anti-British demonstrations, Irish children terrorising British kids, British holidaymakers being treated with hostility - what form does that hatred take?"
You claim to have responded to it.
You claim you have responded to it - you patently have not - another dishonesty.
Do not accuse me of dishonesty again.
You want to debate Kineally - go read her book and do not say I'm wrong until you have.
This is the end of this pert of the discussion and until you respond with your examples of Irish hatred, the end of my responses to you here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 08:53 AM

For that to happen Jim he,d have to read a book, a whole book. It ain,t going to happen.

Still decorating, still very warm

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 09:19 AM

Never been contradicted on a book I have read by someone who has never read one
First time for everything, I suppose!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 11:11 AM

I've given you my assessment of Kineally - respond to it

It is shite.
I've given you her actual words on the subject.
Not from a book, but from her writing in the journal, "History Ireland."

What is your assessment worth?
Shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 11:16 AM

Rag,
As usual I have nothing but kindness and hospitality from a wonderful nation of people.

That is my experience too.
North and South.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 11:39 AM

Of course Keith, if Jim Carroll really was such a great fan of Christine Kinealy and her work then you would think that, just out of respect, he would at least be able to get the spelling of her name correct. But then it took him years to get Philip Donnellan's name right as well.

As previously stated he's made getting things wrong almost an art form has our little Anglophobe.

Absolutely dying to see him launch his great work, his opus on the "Famine" creative it might be, but factual it certainly won't be.

Still hasn't told us yet how the British could have started those fires in Sackville Street on the evening of the 24th April 1916 by firing artillery while it was on the move from Athlone.

Wonder what he is going to get wrong next.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 11:54 AM

"It is shite."
#There's no answer to that as irt is not an intelligent response.
Come bacxk whan you have one.
You have either misunderstood or deliberately distorted your quote - both are probable
You have yet to describe the form in which the hatred of the Irish takes - and you won't.
" able to get the spelling of her name correct.!
Typos and insults again - why not, you've nothing else.
Go back an check my responses to your timeline regarding the fires - you have been fully answered.
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 01:14 PM

It goes against all my instincts to respond to these eejits, but one last time
Kinealy's attitude to The Famine as treated by revisionist historians.

Death Dealing Famine review by a defender of Britain's role -
At one level she assumes the role of the Roy Foster of Famine history and at another the mantle of a modern Cecil Woodham-Smith. She will not like the first description, for Foster is the arch-revisionist, not a species that finds favour with Dr Kinealy, since revisionists seek to remove blame from considerations of Ireland's past and Kinealy is very strong on blame.

Dr Kinealy never explicitly aspires to emulate Mrs Cecil Woodham-Smith, but she shares with her a sense of outrage at what the government of the United Kingdom failed to do to alleviate the sufferings of the Great Famine. Woodham-Smith's villains are Kinealy's villains; and like Woodham-Smith, her interpretation of events is coloured by what ought to have happened rather than by what actually did take place.
The purpose of all this ancestor display is, I presume, to make the point that historians are prisoners of their environments and cannot write history objectively. Dr Kinealy's view is unambiguous. "Fundamentally the concept of value-free history, whilst noble in its intentions, is flawed in its execution. In striving for objectivity, that very purpose itself violates the concept, as the quest reflects the writer's own value-system and is set in the context within which the historian is writing (p.2)." In plain English, all history is subjective polemic.

Kinealy's response
Why was one of the most profound events in modern Irish history ignored for so long by academics in Ireland? The self-imposed censorship has now been replaced with an attempt to destroy the character of people who have broken that silence, yet who do not belong to an remote inner-circle of Irish historians.

ii. Regarding the weary revisionist arguments of whether historians should allocate 'blame', and the need to judge the official response to the Famine in the context of the time. I do not use the word blame myself, but I do seek to understand why certain events occurred, even if this means confronting unpleasant realities. In a less emotive context, Irish people (and even some historians) might be interested in understanding if - in the context of the time - it could have been possible to alleviate the effects of the loss of the potato crop. The answer, if we look at the evidence, is very clear. The debate at the time, the massive food exports at the time, the resignation and disillusionment of senior officials at the time due to the parsimony of official relief, the example at the time of how other countries were responding to the loss of their own crops, are compelling evidence of an inadequate government response. This can hardly be said of Dr Clarkson's effort to depict Charles Trevelyan in a more favourable light than his actions would permit, given Trevelyan's knowledge of conditions at the time.

Quote used by her from Colm Tobín
"In 1966 the state celebrated the 50th anniversary of the Rising with enormous gusto, with marches in which schools took part and rousing speeches and an emotional television series called Insurrection, broadcast nightly. But once the North broke and the IRA campaign recommenced, the state's attitude changed. 'In an act of astonishing political opportunism, O'Loughlin wrote, '1916 was revised. By 1976, and the 60th celebrations, a different tune was being played. For people of my generation, who were and are, in an important sense, neither Republican nor non-Republican, this was a lesson they would never forget. To see history so swiftly rewritten was to realise that what was called history was in fact a facade behind which politicians manoeuvred for power.'. ."

Or this from a Famine conference introduction
"Kinealy, for example, concludes her 1997 work with a chapter entitled „A Policy of Extermination‟ referring to the genocidal interpretation of the Irish Famine"

Lots more where that came from
As far as Teribus's claim that he is still waiting for a reply on the fires - try here
Date: 18 May 16 - 08:26 PM
19 May 16 - 08:01 AM
more examples above.

"Almost 500 people were killed in the Easter Rising. About 54% were civilians, 30% were British military and police, and 16% were Irish rebels. More than 2,600 were wounded. Many of the civilians were killed as a result of the British using artillery and heavy machine guns, or mistaking civilians for rebels. Others were caught in the crossfire in a crowded city. The shelling and the fires it caused left parts of inner city Dublin in ruins."
Wiki
And again
Many of the civilians were killed as a result of the British using artillery and heavy machine guns, or mistaking civilians for rebels. Others were caught in the crossfire in a crowded city. The shelling and the fires it caused left parts of inner city Dublin in ruins."
(ibid)
Any sign of that prooof of hatred yet Keith - no - ah well!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 01:44 PM

You have either misunderstood or deliberately distorted your quote - both are probable

I have done neither. Here is the proof of your dishonesty.
http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/

You have yet to describe the form in which the hatred of the Irish takes - and you won't.

Yes I have.
04 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 01:58 PM

Still struggling to make this into a Famine thread then Jim.

And it was you and Raggy who were so sensitive about getting names right if I remember correctly.

Care to explain the point in your repeated Wiki cut'n'paste Jim?

The fires started at around 20:30hrs on the evening of the 24th April 1916. There were no British troops in the area and there were no British guns in the area - there were only two groups of people present in the area of Sackville Street at that time on that day, the Irish Volunteers and the civilian looters. So come on Sherlock tell who could not have possibly started those fires - the people you claimed did.

The fires burned unchecked for 40 hours before any artillery fire was directed at Sackville Street. Now in a built up area during those 40 hours are the fires going to get worse and build or are they just going to fizzle out - James would appear to favour the latter, common sense screams that the opposite would be the case - but logic, reasoning and common sense are not tools in Jim Carroll's armoury.

I have no doubt whatsoever that artillery fire did cause fires, but it did not start the fires that burned on Sackville Street and that is what Jim Carroll originally claimed, not just artillery but Heavy Artillery at that, i.e. weapons that were not even present in Ireland at that time - Just how wrong can you get it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 10:40 PM

Could the fires have been caused by .303 tracer ammunition fired from Vickers Heavy Machine Guns? The UK started using .303 tracer in 1915, and those machine guns were in use in Dublin in 1916.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 02:57 AM

Don't think so Rapparee, here are the details related to the mention of first use of machine guns during the Easter Week Rising:

From RTE Chronology of the Rising.

Remembering and taking note of the fact that the fires in Sackville Street started around 20:30hrs in the evening of the 24th April, 1916

Tuesday, 25 April, 1916

• 02.15 – Capt. Elliotson and an army machine gun group of 100 men secure Shelbourne Hotel which offers them military control of St Stephen's Green.

• 03.20 – Troops take control of Royal Services Club on St Stephen's Green.

• 03.45 – Brigadier Lowe arrives at Kingsbridge with remainder of 25th Reserve Infantry Brigade and takes personal control of British forces.

• 05.30 – Intense gunfire around Stephen's Green under fire with high numbers of rebel casualties.

• 08.00 – British forces take control of City Hall having re-captured the roof. All rebels remaining in the building are taken prisoner.

• 08.30 – Under heavy fire the Citizen Army force at St Stephen's Green take the decision to abandon their exposed positions in the Green and take up new positions in the Royal College of Surgeons. They take to the roof and begin exchanging fire with British forces. Four rebels are confirmed killed in the Green.

Maximum range of that ammunition was only 350 yards by which time the "tracer" material would have burned itself out. As the crow flies the distance from the Shelbourne Hotel to Sackville Street is more than 1,250 metres.

The geography is also wrong for any fire from the British gunners positions firing into Stephens Green for any stray rounds to land in Sackville Street. From the Shelbourne Hotel which lies on the North side of Stephens Green the gunners would be shooting to the South (Stephens Green) and to the West (College of Surgeons) - Sackville Street was located on the North side of the Liffey.

Subject: RE: BS: Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:46 AM

You have had my description of how Kineally assess Irish history to which you responded "It is shite"
You have just been given her assessment of Britain's culpability in the outcome of the Famine, on which you based your arguments in supporting Britain - she not only blamesd Britain but she suggests that it might have been deliberate genocide.
Her assesment of how history has been manipulated to protect for political reasons rather than blame Britain for The famine is brilliant, yett you still claim her as a supporter of your suggestion that Irish children were brainwashed - utterly grotesque.   
"Some Irish must inevitably hate Britain if they believe all the lies fed to them as children.
Professor Richardson did. In her case it was manifested as a desire to join IRA.
There is a wide spectrum of ways in which hate can be manifested, and I am not getting in to it.
And that is your summing up of the result of generations of brainwashing - one out of context statement from someone who wants to give a platform to wants to give a platform to Islamists in Britain and a plea of 'I refuse to comment on the grounds that it may incriminate me'.
I asked for proof that Irish people hate Britain - you claim to have given it saying "There is a wide spectrum of ways in which hate can be manifested, and I am not getting in to it.
How utterly stupid can you get.
Terribus - one again you give technical descriptions that you refuse to link to documented facts - you are inventing these 'facts to make a case that has been totally disproved by eye-witness accounts

The Shelling of Dublin City Centre
Eye witness account from 'The Scrap' Gene Kerrigan.
"The shelling of Dublin city centre continued through Thursday. Unable to do their job, the Dublin Fire Brigade watched helplessly as the flames spread. Around 7.30pm, the outsize DBC building collapsed into Sackville Street - a terrible noise, a vast mass of falling bricks and debris, the impact shaking the whole street. Colossal clouds of dust and smoke rose into the sky. Watching from the Imperial Hotel.
Having consumed the Hibernian Bank, flames continued moving north along the block. Hoyte's, a chemist's premises equipped with barrels of turpentine and methylated spirits, caught fire and the whole building went up. Barrels of chemicals exploded, some of them landing on the roof of the Imperial Hotel.
The immense conflagration at Hoyte's took the fire to the end of that block, with just the narrow lane of Sackville Place separating it from the block dominated by Clerys department store and the Imperial Hotel.
The flames crept along the barricade at the top of Sackville Place - the barricade through which Frank Henderson and his F Company comrades had passed when they arrived in the city centre on Tuesday evening. The fire soon reached the building on the other side of the lane and began to crawl up the window frame. Clerys and the Imperial Hotel would be next.
The British artillery was taking its time about finding the range of the GPO, and its efforts were spraying shells far and wide. Guns in the garden of the Rotunda Hospital were lobbing shells over buildings to drop into the Sackville Street area. Some hit the roof of the Imperial. A water tank attached to a side wall, under the roof, took a direct hit and shattered. The water fell straight down into an annex where a number of Volunteers were resting – it hit them like a wave and washed them along the floor.
Besides drenching the Volunteers, the direct hit on the water tank had deprived the Imperial garrison of water to fight fires.
A shell hit the roof of the Metropole Hotel."
Your time line gives the looters starting fires at the beginning of the week - apparently those 'looters fires' were still blazing away at the end of the week despite being fought by firefighters until a British shell destroyed the water supply - what exactly were the looters using-flame throwers?
Your description describes dedicated arsonist supporters of the rebellion, not what history has described them to be, the poorest citizens of the poorest City in Europe taking the opportunity of a diverting rebellion to help themselves to a little schmutter.
They were looters - not arsonists.
Have you ever seen the length of Sackville/O'Connell Street and the height of its buildings?
Somewhat pathetic, even for you.
Jim Carroll