another one lost

Subject: another one lost
From: GUEST,Seasoned Mudcattter
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 02:13 PM

Another mudcatter is gone. This is an individual who is not flashy and never has felt the need to post to every thread on the forum. They are obviously knowledgeable about folk music and folksingers and was generous enough to share that with this forum. Their offerings were always short and to the point. Now, even they have been turned off by this website. Why? You say? Because of the crap. Threads started about favorite toothpastes or how to tell time. By covert white sheets. By dictatorships. By the need of some to exploit the plights of others. By the fear of some to speak out. By the insidious red tide of bigotry now so prevalent on this forum. This person won't be missed because there was never a need to install theirself as a "personality," preferring instead, to give assistance, when needed, or to impart some bit of knowledge.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 03:13 PM

Bigotry?
Please explain
I ignored the toothpaste thing and have instead learned today that the tunes carrick fergus and haste to the wedding can be the same thing - which cleared up a confusion I had been having
Hope I have not offended anyone and please do not leave whoever you are through difference of opinion

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 03:33 PM

Guest,

The only poster that I know, who meets your criteria is Malcolm Douglas.

He hasn't left, but continues to ignore the the stuff that doesn't interest him, and posts intelligent and informed stuff when he has something to say.

Personally, I don't engage in the threads that you mention, prefering to offer help when I can, or ask for help when I'm sure someone will be able to offer advice.

Do you stop drinking somewhere because a few people at the next table talk crap?

Ed

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 03:47 PM

Very good post, Ed. I continue to believe that people that leave should simply be wished well, and then we should be about our business. Folks that continually predict the end of the Mudcat as we know it should take notice of how long they have been making this prediction. It goes back as long as I have been here and we just keep chugging along. Kudo's to you and Malcolm for contributing, and mightily so, to those areas of our village that interest you.

Bigotry? The bigotry lies in those that profess to care for the Mudcat as long as it fits their notion of what it should be.

I wish our departed member well, hope they will stop back now and again, and wish those that post anonymously that someday they will grow a backbone and just post. And when someone makes an assertion, such as "well we have lost another one", without any data to back it up, that is called a gratuitous assertion. These can be denied just as gratuitously. So, GUEST, no one has left. In fact, The Mudcat is growing.

Mick

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 04:24 PM

It's theirself's loss. (Ugh!

Ebbie

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Morticia
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 04:30 PM

here we go again.......

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 04:47 PM

Goodbye, goodbye, Wipe the tiny tear from your eye, Though it's hard to part I know, I'll be tickled to death to go. Don't cry, don't sigh, There's a silver lining in the sky, Bon soir old thing, Cheerio, chin-chin, Napoo, toodle-oo, goodbye.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Tiger
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 04:56 PM

I may have unwittingly unleashed the toothpaste/breakfast cereal juggernaut back on 1/6/99 when I asked "How old is a Mudcatter?" I don't recall similar questions before that.

Unlike the more recent queries, though, I though my question was relevant, given that we react to music differently at different ages (as in the nursing home "Till We Meet Again" requests). Who ever forgot what was playing when you and your girl were in the back seat of that Chevy?

So, maybe I'm guilty for this one. However, someone else will have to 'fess up as the originator of the 'political soapbox' and 'pitiful Pearl' genres.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: GUEST,Kernow Jon
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 05:21 PM

Mick
Just because a person posts anonymously doesn't mean they don't have a backbone.
The name I use means nothing, I'm a long term catter who made the mistake of publishing his e-mail address and finished up getting abusive mails from others here.
I still use the cat and help out where I can, but prefer to remain free from abuse.
KJ

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Tig
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 05:26 PM

Being a relatively new Mudcat compared to some of you I have found a whole new range of friends on the site - and in the flesh! I've been on the scene for 30 years now and can definately state that during that time I have not spent all my time in deep discussions about music with my folk friends. We have talked about just about everything under the sun and often disagreed with each other/heard a load of crap/done or said things we later regretted. However there was always the chance to talk music or ask for help if we wanted to.

When Bill encouraged me to join Mudcats I was lead to understand that the site was for 'real' people who would be interested in folk (doesn't that mean "of the people"?) and would soon become internet friends. So let us have these threads. I don't read all of them and rarely post - but I've learnt a lot from those I have read about all sorts of things, just as I have done at a festival, pub session or club over the years. Keep up ALL the range of threads. If someone leaves in a huff it's their problem. It happens all the time in the great wide world!

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: GUEST,The Invisible Blazoona
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 06:11 PM

About a year ago, I posted a thread (under my real name) about how I was also leaving the Mudcat, never to return, because of what I felt were it's shortcomings.

I subsequently realized that I had been a horses ass.

I'm back now, embarrassed, under an alias, and wishing I hadn't said the things I said.

Maybe the "Seasoned Mudcatter" will end up feeling as I do.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: GUEST,Seasoned Mudcatter
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 06:42 PM

KJ: You are absolutely correct.

Ed Pellow: There are many mudcatters who meet the criteria, many of whom are no longer here.

Big Mick: You are not unkind, but that is how you are acting.

The Invisible Blazoona: "Seasoned Mudcatter" is not the one who has gone.

This is precisely why I posted as "Seasoned Mudcatter."

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 06:50 PM

In light of the fact that reading or responding to threads is optional, not mandatory, and in light of the wealth of substantive and informative thread subjects and information available here, I would say that anyone who leaves because he or she objects to the presence of things that he or she does not favor, is just shooting him or herself in the tootsies.

I think it might also be worth considering the possibility that some threads (like maybe the toothpaste thread), are just started by bored people who want to stir things up, or have a laugh at our expense. To judge the Mudcat as a whole on the basis of such people doesn't make very much sense to me.

I like this place.

Carol

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 07:03 PM

What a load. I doubt anyone's gone. 'Seasoned Mudcatter' is just some member who wants to control the direction of Mudcat with guilt. "Oh, some poor gal/guy couldn't deal with seeing thread names like 'what's your fave toothpaste' so s/he was forced to leave!" Boo-fuckin'-hoo. If annoying thread titles are the hardest thing this fake person ever has to live through, they're VERY fortunate.

There's plenty of pure music threads around. So they share more space with 'frivilous' threads now days. Don't read threads you know you won't like. Lots of folks do that, sticking only to music threads. I read both, myself, because I enjoy both kinds (though due to my limited knowledge of music, I may not post to many musical threads). There's nothing to bitch about.

And if you really feel the urge to bitch, at least grow some globes and use your member name.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 07:11 PM

there are people who quit coming to our local song circle...for various reasons. Some quit because the 'quality' wasn't high enough. Some because the group talked too much to suit them. Some because they had pressing 'life' elsewhere. Some because they realized after a few times that we did not use 'Rise Up Singing' as our major input and had only a little bit of singer/songwriter performances....but after 25+ years, we are still having nice evenings.

Face it...no place can be all things to all people, and some folks have a higher threshold of pain and a better ability sort wheat from chaff.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Helen
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 07:28 PM

Rest assured, The Invisible Blazoona, your horses ass is just as invisible as your Blazoona.

Welcome back. And maybe someday you will feel comfortable to use your own Mudcat name again. I am confident that rather than derision you are more likely to get lots of hugs and snogs from the majority of 'Catters. Here are some hug-snogs from me to start with.

Helen

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 07:31 PM

The folks who choose to engage in discussions on volatile subjects should know they may eventually feel mad and frustrated. I've done this in the past, to the point where I walked away for a while to cool off. I did not once say I was leaving forever, because I knew myself better than that. I couldn't turn my backs on the many friends I've made here because of an argument.

I believe the Mudcatter in question left because a couple of people lost their tempers. This is a human thing to do, although many of us like to think we're above it. The guest who started this mess is attempting to "demonize" Mudcat in general, but I have a hard time taking the phrase "insidious red tide of bigotry" seriously. (sorry, I've got this image of clams with tiny little protest signs stuck in my head.)

People had different opinions. People got pissed off and reacted. Once the emotional reactions started, any chance at communication was mostly gone. Of course, if you want to keep the anger at a nice, high level, keep this thread and ones like it going. The damned alien brain-suckers are back.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:07 PM

well, I missed whatever this was about. But I did enjoy the phrase "insidious red tide of bigotry", very much.

I enjoyed it so much, my wife, in the next room, yelled "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU LAUGHING AT!!!???? YOU SOUND LIKE A LUNATIC!!!"

in fact, I'm still enjoying it. I hope I recover...

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: The Beanster
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:17 AM

I used to go to a very nice grocery store that was full of delicious, fresh food, at a reasonable price. I liked the melons and the asparagus and the big juicy steaks they sold there. Then one day, they started selling sardines, too. I don't like sardines. I tried to tell them, "Stop selling sardines! I don't like sardines!" But they wouldn't stop. So I had to leave and I haven't been back since.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: GUEST,The Ivisble Blazoona
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:11 AM

Thanks Helen. You're very sweet, but I don't feel quite ready yet.

For the time being, I'm just glad to be back, even under a different name

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Mbo
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:14 AM

Throw out the life-line
Throw out the the life-life
Someone is drifting away...

(old gospel tune)

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:27 AM

Welcome back, Invisible Blazoona. I am sorry you left, and am glad that you have rejoined us. You know how it is here..........jump in where you feel like it, ignore what you don't. I am pleased you have rejoined us. We are the better for it.

Seasoned Mudcatter, I just don't get it. I made my comments without rancor. I bear no malice towards those that leave. In fact, I appreciate it when they do so without leaving the rest of us with a load of phony crap. This place is permanent. It will be here whether you are here, I am here or anyone else is here. I wish you would reread my post above and tell me what was mean about it. It was not my intent to be mean, and I am sorry you took it that way. There is another 'Catter that has made that accusation. I suspect you are the same person. Regardless of whether you are or not, would you do me a kindness and point out what you felt was mean about that post.

Thanks

Mick

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: GUEST,finders keepers
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:10 PM

the lost one is probably one of the jews from the folk nazi thread.

or maybe it was one of the gypsies who don't like the blarney brothers.

i assume that it's not one of the black bluegrass musicians.

some people take offense so easily.

the true mudcatters know that its all in good fun.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Froodo
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:17 PM

see you later...good luck

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Jed at Work
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:19 PM

Invisible Blazoona - welcome back, and I hope you stay.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: The Beanster
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:25 PM

If you have something to say, why not post it using your known Mudcat name? If you're unwilling to take responsibility for your words, they are worthless.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:25 PM

We yam what we yam. Those who feel they must leave because of it, fare you well.

Welcome back, Blazoona.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: oggie
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:26 PM

In my short time here this is the second (or possibly third) time this thread has come up in one form or another. If the day comes when I cease to enjoy Mudcat I will go quietly and fussless, as I suspect all of us have left something during our lives. Such an act is voluntary, we don't pay to join, we don't get paid, it's meant to be FUN and I enjoy the place. Some non-music threads are fascinating and illuminating, a few posts are inspired and inspiring. The toothpaste thread I can do without and so I haven't bothered reading it, no matter, if someone else enjoys it, fine. I have also had some lovely debates with other 'catters and found some words I was after, it's been FUN.

I belong to another list which recently went through a bout of bad feeling and in some cases quite abusive posts. Some people left but quite quickly it has all settled down and gone back to being friendly and informative. I suspect it's the nature of the beast.

Leave if you wish to but do not throw the baby out with the bathwater! There is no obligation to read every thread (life's too short and I've got some new tunes to learn) enjoy the bits that interest you but don't try and control veryone else with a mass guilt- trip.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:27 PM

There's a lot of stuff I don't read. Then again, there's a lot of ridiculous stuff I do read. If I want to contribute, I do, if I don't, then I don't. Sure, there is a lot of silly stuff going on here. I can't tell you how many good laughs I've got from some of it. But there is also a wealth of information. Sometimes it's like an antique store - if you want to shop, you have to wade through a little junk. No big deal. To each their own. :)

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Melani
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:44 PM

It seems to me that we all have one common interest that brought us here--folk music--but that aside from that, we are a greatly varied group. I love being able to find music information here, and I love finding out about the other people in this forum as well. Some of the sillier threads have been a really great and fun way to do that. The only way to make friends is to get to know people, and you don't have to agree with all of someone's opinions to be friends.

Although I must say that I was rather hoping that the thread titled "The CONSTITUTION and YOUR UNDERWEAR" was a parody of "The CONSTITUTION and the GUERRIERE"...

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: little john cameron
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 06:39 PM

Jist in case yese were wonderin aboot me,ah'm still here.The weather is grand so ah've been wheughin aroon oan mah bike.When the snaw comes ah'll be stuck in the hoose again,so ah'm makin the maist o it noo. LJC

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 06:53 PM

little john cameron-

I'm glad you're still around.

Guest, finders keepers-

Sometimes it's not all in good fun. For instance, your post doesn't sound like good fun to me. It feels like an insideous way of including the rest of us in something you are doing that is in bad taste. Please count me out of your fun.

Carol

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 07:08 PM

Tell ya' what LJC, I noticed you were missing, but I figured you'd been arrested because of the transvestite thing. Personally, I'm glad you're enjoying the great outdoors, but I'll feel much better when winter comes and you can indulge your passion for skirts and knee socks in the privacy of your own home. Until then, I urge you to use caution. Better yet, just wear pants.

Glad you're back Blazoona.

Spaw

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: GUEST,The Invisible Blazoona
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 07:52 PM

Thanks to all for the kind words.

It sure goes to prove that even when there are disagreements, this is still a great place with wonderful people.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Max
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 08:18 PM

Let us make a philosophical analogy and pretend for a moment that Mudcat = Life. There is no doubt that the events and social construct are similar if not just a subset. (One difference is that LIFE may in fact have a GOD, where Mudcat certainly does not. This simply means that the Mudcat is up to us to create and maintain which is a blessing and a burden, without THE BIG GUY'S HELP.)

Leaving the Mudcat would be like committing suicide in Life. By opening a discussion about it beforehand you are simply crying out for help or grasping for attention just as most suicide threats attempt to do.

When people do this in reality, that is threaten to kill themselves, are they naively trying to get the world to change around them when in fact it is them that needs to change? After all, the world is wholly indifferent.

Perhaps the change is just some needed tolerance to NOT take Life so personal or serious.

Perhaps these victims are asking for a perfect world, one personal to them, not taking into consideration the thousands upon thousands of other people in this world who also have self interest. This may be an egocentric disorder, or just selfishness.

Perhaps it is true pain or disdain. Even so, is killing yourself a justifiable scenario in dealing with true concepts?

In Life and On Mudcat:

...You have control of your environment and your actions. You can choose to get and take and give what you want and refuse the rest.

...You may think that you, just one person, could not change this world when in fact you might.

...All we can really do is show by example.

...Create WHAT IS with our collective desires, passions, beliefs, personalities, etc. Life is what you make it. (and without The Big Guy's help the Mudcat sure is what we make it!)

Members come and go, we have to deal with that, but now we're scaring away the new folks. Lets get some love in the air! huh folks? Take that energy that you waste on complaining and spread some joy, kind words, and music threads for GOD'S sake.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 09:39 PM

THAT,Max,was a dandy post.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: GUEST,Alex
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 11:43 PM

As someone who has been a DT contributor from way back and posts to the music-related threads where I can help, my general rule of thumb (although I hate to "generalize" I made an exception in this case) is - If there are more than 20 posts it has usually degenerated into BS and I ignore it. If someone has a legitimate request and it has not been answered in the first 5-10 replies it is usually so obscure that even the mudcat experts don't know or it was a BS request in the first place. (Well, sometimes, they get ten BS replies that are no help at all.) I remember that we once tried to persuade folks to announce BS threads by putting BS in the thread title. Can we try to do that?

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Lena
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 02:01 AM

I may bee too new and young and shallow,but I'm for freedom of communication and enjoy both threads about toothpastes and lyrics requests.More,I wouldn't probably a Mudcat regular if there wasn't a good hint of human,fun,nutty contributions but just serious exchanges of tunes.And apparently this lost mudcatter had a big hit of 'personality thing'with this thread.

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: dwditty
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 07:18 AM

Call me shallow, folks, but I just plain love the mudcat. Plenty of people have come and gone. Some were cool, some were not, so I miss some and don't really miss others. Who remembers Shula, Gene, Elwood Delta, Earl, Peter (from San Diego-I think he first posted the "How to write a blues song" thread), and the list goes on. It doesn't bother me much if folks decide to leave, and most just stop coming by without any word of farewell. Sure I miss 'em, but it ain't life and death here people. There are still plenty of kind folks around - some will stay, some will go, news ones will do the same. In thinking about it, I wouldn't trade out any of the new folks here to get the old ones back. After all, what would hearme be like without Mbo. Almost every post Giac makes cracks me up. And those pesky woodchucks from up north. And Biskit driving his truck around the country, hooking up with Mudcatters along the way. So, in my mind, our little space here keeps changing - not better, not worse, just changing. If you like it you'll stay. If you don't you won't. No offense taken here if you do leave. I hope you feel the same.

love,

dw

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: dwditty
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 07:20 AM

One other thing, if it wasn't for all the "stupid" threads, we never would have gotten the now famous "What Condoms do Mudcatters Prefer" thread.

dw

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Bagpuss
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 07:43 AM

Max - I know the suicide thing was only an analogy, but it does perpetuate some misconceptions. While it is true that most people who threaten suicide or make a half-hearted suicide attempt, do not go on to commit suicide - it is also thrue that the vast majority of people who do commit suicide have threatened or tried it in the past. Therefore, every "cry for help" should be taken seriously.

I have nowt to say about mudcatters leaving though...

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 08:37 AM

I don't know whom Seasoned Mudcatter had in mind, but I am missing Lesley N and his invaluable contributions since about a quarter of a year. Lest Mick can say 'no one has left' unchallenged.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 08:55 AM

Wolfgang, I think that you will find that Lesley is female (Leslie is the male spelling) and I think (and hope) that she is still around. Outside Mudcat, I believe that Lesley makes another invaluable contribution to folk music - contemplator.com.

Jon

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 09:03 AM

contemplator.com??? That is an excellent website, filled with wonderful information! congrats to our Mudcat Lesley, if indeed it is her site!

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 09:03 AM

Jon,
thanks for the correction. (And I thought I was safe with my guess this time)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 09:39 AM

Wolfgang, please stay with the context. My point wasn't that no one had left. My point was that when someone starts a thread with a gratuitous assertion, that assertion can be gratuitously denied and have as much validity as the original. I find a thread started by someone who acts anonymously, making a gratuitous assertion to be suspect. Fortunately, in grand Mudcat fashion, we have taken it and made it into a valuable thread.

And I still haven't heard what it was that I said in my previous post that was mean. None of it was intended to be such. You will note, please, that the same person who started this thread made the assertion that my post was mean. Just as there was no basis to start the original, there was no response to my request that they explain what was mean. That speaks to me of this person's motive in starting the whole discussion. This is more of the same crap that we have seen before. These people want it to be what they want instead of what it is. That's OK, but not realistic.

Mick

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 09:41 AM

Pedantic bit - I think "Lesley" is both male and female spelling, and "Leslie" is usually female. In any case, I believe the person we're speaking about is female. I agree the website is great, and one of my favorite places on the web.

On the guilt trip SM is attempting to lay on us - I have no contol over other people's minds, computers or "Submit Message" buttons. You may wish to hold us all (including yourself) responsible, but it's an unrealistic wish. We may wish that the person who has left hadn't felt as angry as he did, and didn't blame everyone here - including friends - for what a few people said. This is probably just as unrealistic.

The person in question would probably enjoy a moderated list somewhere, where the types of things you mentioned in your first post are censored. That's just about the only way to keep certain topics or viewpoints from being discussed. Of course, not one person has the opportunity to learn something new if that happens, but perhaps it's not worth the risk. (note irony, please)

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 12:47 PM

I belong to three other lists and I can tell you that this sort of stuff goes on there, too, from time to time. When you have several hundred people together in one place, it's unrealistic to expect that ALL OF THEM will agree and play nice with one another. I even got my feelings hurt once by an Official List Curmudgeon (not here) and I sent a PM saying, look, I know you probably didn't mean for that to be mean, but it really did upset me, because blahblahblah. He apologized and agreed that it may have sounded wrong, I accepted, end of story. We settled it privately and politely. I didn't leave because some grump shot from the hip and managed to scrape me. I'm not the only one who's felt his barbs. But we all put up with him, because we know how he is, and because He Knows A Lot of Stuff.

If someone ever feels like they need to take their ball and go home, that's their decision. Maybe they just need a little time to refresh.

Personally I like the BS threads. They make for fun conversation and a few laffs in my little cube. :)

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 12:52 PM

Not according to my dictionary (Chambers 20th Century English) Jeri. Leslie is given as m and Lesley is given as f.

Jon

Subject: RE: another one lost
From: MK
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 12:55 PM

I've stated this before but it merits saying again to those shit disturbers and flamers. Get out and actually meet, mingle and play with some Mudcatters. You won't ever have the urge to flame them again, it will be easier in future to ignore the small percentage of bullshit that happens here and focus on your friends and other pertinent, rational areas of discussion.


MK
-who fully expects to be flamed over this message *G*