BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3

Subject: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 05:57 AM

Because part 2 of the single thread for UK politics has reached over 1000 posts I hope to start a new one here. The old one should be closed soon.

The end of the old thread

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 06:12 AM

The end of the old thread?   The old thread just told me that it's a frayed knot...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 08:05 AM

Is this the joke thread? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 09:30 AM

I've just done a longer post that won't post. Grr. I'll try again, whenever...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 10:20 AM

The Cat's had hiccups on and off for a few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 04:50 PM

Only if it's Tories we're talking about...

Watched a documentary called the Labour Files on YouTube last night. OK, it was made (or put together) by Al Jazeera. It dealt with the downfall of Jeremy Corbyn, particularly with regard to the trumped-up antisemitism nonsense. How Labour apparatchik insiders and not a few MPs, including John Mann, Luciana Berger, Margaret Hodge and Ruth Smeeth, especially those with sympathies for Israel, ganged up to demonise him. How Labour were forced into the position of having to accept the deeply flawed IHRA definition of antisemitism. How Zionism, antisemitism and criticism of Israel were conflated in order to prevent any criticism of Israel and how reporting of the treatment of Palestinians was virtually set aside. There were plenty of other disturbing revelations.

I'm not looking for confirmation bias and I was extremely aware of the Al Jazeera logo at the bottom of the screen. But I'm piqued into delving a bit more. Anyone who feels the need to criticise Corbyn (and he certainly isn't beyond criticism) should reflect on whether their opinions were formed by dint of what they got from our mainstream media. Even the "unbiased" BBC has a lot to answer for in light of that infamous Panorama documentary. It's lazy talk to characterise him as "a weak leader who led Labour to their worst defeat since the thirties," etc. A bit more deep digging is required in order to see what really went on, especially in the Labour Party. And Starmer doesn't get a free pass either, far from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 23 - 01:40 PM

I just can't bring myself to watch that, Steve. What the Labour party has become is so sad that I cannot bear to get it confirmed any more!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 23 - 02:08 AM

Labour ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ at Selby byelection as hopes grow of shock win
I can't see how that could really work out well. If Labour do get the seat, they will send a signal that they can win similar seats in the General Election when it occurs, but they will not be able to "throw the kitchen sink" at every such seat, so it will give a false impression of their ability to win. And of course, there is a very high chance of letting the Conservatives win by spittibg the vote.

Probably the best result is if Labour do throw the kitchen sink at the seat, but the LibDems still win. In that case, maybe more intelligent tactics will be used for the GE.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 23 - 06:25 AM

I agree. And byelections tend to produce maverick results, and these two, whatever happens, will be relegated in the public mind by the time the next election comes round. Playing a straight bat would be less unseemly. That reminds me: I'm just about due to tune into the third Test...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jul 23 - 05:27 AM

Following the ‘painting over cartoon-character murals’ exercise at a reception centre for the children of asylum-seekers because, according to the Immigration Minister Robert Jenrick, they were ‘too welcoming’, I’ve borrowed this from the social media post of a person I know personally. Nail/head, AFAIC…

”Three poems for a Morally Vacant Government that uses Petty Cruelty as a stick with which to beat lost, lonely and already damaged children...

#1) "WELL, MR JENRICK, IF WE DIDN’T ALREADY KNOW WHAT TYPE OF HEARTLESS PEOPLE YOUR PARTY ARE, WE DO NOW.

Don’t let the children have a look
At Mickey Mouse or The Jungle Book
Paint over, make them disappear
We don’t want a welcome here"
- Paul Cookson

#2) "No Mickey Mouse
Allowed in this house
We’re not talking child protection
It’s about votes
‘Stopping the boats’
So this is a house of correction
A cartoon’s too nice
For a heart made of ice
It must be painted over
The message unsaid:
Your folks may be dead
But the graves don’t end in Dover"
- Attila the Stockbroker

#3) "Paint over Mickey Mouse
Burn Where the Wild Things Are
Pulverise the lego
Set fire to the Christmas tree star.

Seize all the teddies
Bury every skipping rope
Paint the walls dark brown
Abolish all hope."
- Michael Rosen

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Jul 23 - 01:32 PM

.... Ah *that*'s why the English news is wall-to-wall coverage of that kerfuffle about a Beeb presenter: stir up a Saville-storm, and nobody remembers Mickey Mouse being painted over, or Thames Water being sold off and collapsing in a cloud of debt and excrement, or [snip: I too forget them all]. The only escape is Radio Four, whose news bulletins cover more than one subject (they don't yet suffer from Bone-of-the-Week syndrome), and where the satire programmes tell us what's really going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 03:05 AM

Jeremy Corbyn, particularly with regard to the trumped-up antisemitism nonsense

As I remember it, he overtly supported things "not Israel/Jewish" and that was to garner support from those less covert in their anti-Israel stance. Other views are available, subject to confirmation bias.

And while we are "on topic", Corbyn was not only un-electable, and obviously so, he wanted Brexshit so he could make his own laws that weren't necessarily European ones. His public stance on Brexshit was to leave a free vote. A prudent or timid position depending on which side of the 50/50 you sit.

Cue accusations of being Tory or something, here it comes..........................

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 11:19 AM

Nope. The appropriate response to that is that you are suffering severely from Daily Mailism. You forget that, against all the odds, he trashed Theresa May's majority in 2017. That's when his own party did the right's dirty work in demonising him, both via senior members refusing to join his shadow cabinet and via a small gang of Israeli regime apologists confecting a bogus antisemitism campaign against him. Yes we party members in massive numbers held our heads and groaned at his stance on brexit. As a party leader he was flawed. Michael Foot was similar in many regards. But make no mistake: it was not that Corbyn was unelectable, rather that his own party made him unelectable - deliberately so. It seemed that they'd rather lose an election than have him as leader. You can largely thank all those Labour right-wingers for delivering Boris Johnson to us. Not the only factor, of course. After 2017 the surprised right-wing gutter press decided that they needed to go to town on Corbyn. The Tories hardly had to bother. It was all also an object lesson on how you can't make it without an army of vicious spin-doctors.

Whether you're Tory or not is your private business unless you choose to divulge.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 11:47 AM

When I refer to the party, I'm talking about the party's political establishment, not the hundreds of thousands of party members who joined when he was elected leader. The right in the party don't like us much, either. They don't care that we're leaching away in droves. In fact, they welcome it. Too many of us are on the left for their taste. And look what we have now: an unprincipled leader whose best skill is U-turning on policy and who is just as unconvincing as Corbyn, with his only saving grace being that the right of the party prop him up while the left are either expelled on the most puny of pretexts or who, alternatively, had better shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 23 - 09:57 AM

Steve:
I think you're being a little disingenuous (or looking through RED-tinted glasses) in claiming that Corbyn trashed May's majority.
My view would be that that was mainly down to Theresa may failing to make good on Brexit, and making too many concessions to Brussels thus leaving us in a much poorer negotiating position.
If it was down to Corbyn, why did he not repeat the result against Boris two years later?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 23 - 10:23 AM

Who is being a little disingenuous now, Nigel?

Do you not think that the media and right wing of the Labour party had anything to do with Corbyn's defeat 2 years later? When it is known that members of his own party would rather lose the election than have him as leader it became impossible to repeat the earlier result.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 23 - 10:23 AM

Well it was a general election with two main antagonists. Admittedly, the old saw that elections are lost rather than won has more than a grain of truth, as you're suggesting in this case. But the result was unexpected (and she did lose her overall majority: trashed?), it set alarm bells ringing on the right (as well as among the right in the Labour Party) and it triggered an onslaught by the right-wing media and from within his own party for the next two years. He is a naive, unspun man (not good qualities in a leader, I'm the first to admit) and he didn't know how to counter the attacks, and he accorded his opponents a field day when it came to brexit. Elections are won and lost for many complex reasons and it's impossible to to assign relative importance accurately to any one of them, but I take your point.

Cheers for your civilly-expressed and thoughtful disagreement, Nigel. We could use more of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 23 - 11:47 AM

No-one in Labour is ever going to admit it, but the onslaught on Corbyn from within the party during that two years, executed in the knowledge that the Tories would never contemplate a full term with a shabby minority shored up only by a bunch of illiberal antediluvian types in Northern Ireland, amounted to a deliberate suicide note for the next election. Even had Corbyn resigned before the election, the scramble for a new leader (go on - tell me who!) would still have guaranteed defeat. In the unlikely event of a Corbyn victory in 2019, the right in the party would not have been able to stomach him as PM. The party right wanted him to lose so that they could then do what they're doing now, trying to abolish the left of the party completely and ruthlessly. The last time we had a leftie PM was Atlee, when the circumstances were extraordinary. Labour's core at the top has always been to the right of its centre. It's their party and they're ruthless bastards...

But it won't work for long. That's history for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 23 - 02:52 PM

From Attila The Stockbroker today - right on the button as usual…

”Farage is a banker
Who can no longer bank
The rhyme is far too obvious
But just once Coutts I’ll thank
Though while we roar with laughter
And try not to think of tissues
Remember it’s a smokescreen
To distract from other issues”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 23 - 04:59 PM

Of course, the Coutts/Farage story was reported by the BBC who claimed that his account was closed because his funding was insufficient for a Coutts account.
It has now been proved otherwise.

Remember Pastor Martin Niemöller

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Do we really want banks that can deny you an account because they disagree with your political leanings?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 23 - 06:02 PM

Most banks have right-wing leanings, at least it seems that way if we scrutinise their predilection for investing our money in organisations which will give them the best returns as opposed to organisations that try to be moral or ethical. There are several banks that abide by Sharia law, and in many ways they are far more "moral" than our friendly high street banks. For example, they will not invest in companies that deal in alcohol or gambling. But hey.

The Farage farrago should be seen for what it is: the distempered blustering of a man who is providing us with an amusing aside. He said today that Coutts is just a political campaigning setup. As they won't have you unless you have three million, I was wondering which side they are supposedly campaigning for. Doubt whether it would for anyone on the left...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 23 - 02:29 AM

It was the last two lines in Attila’s little piece that were the most telling and important, AFAIC. I don’t give a flying you-know-what about the gobby man-frog’s financial arrangements or lack of them, and his public display of self-pity disgusts me, but every time there’s a media tempest in a teapot about something inconsequential to the vast majority of us, I wonder what they’re trying to distract us from - usually the actions of this dishonest, rapacious government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 23 - 04:03 AM

I’ve never understood the obsession of the press and media with Farage - a failed would-be politician, the former leader of a small minority-party, who never even managed to get elected to Parliament. He’s a has-been, more likely a never-was, a nobody.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 23 - 07:08 AM

Mebbe it's just me, but I regard the Uxbridge result as a shot across Labour's bows. The ULEZ factor clearly lost Labour this seat and there are plenty more vulnerable seats in London. The ULEZ expansion is an unfair and clumsy move, and, now that it's lost us what should have been an easy seat to pick up, it's going to be hard to reverse without Labour looking bloody stupid. Not trying to be environmentally unfriendly here, by the way, but blackmailing thousands of Londoners into having to change their cars within nine months (whilst leaving most Chelsea tractor gas-guzzlers alone) or pay punitive daily fees is simply not the way forward. If you have an older, non-compliant car, you're more likely to be among the less well-off. Punishing their owners is not my idea of the Labour way. Bad judgements costs seats. Blair got in by avoiding bad judgements in the mid-1990s. Can't trust Starmer to do the same. He's put an unfair cap on child benefits, he won't support public sector trade unions, he's backtracked on several pledges already...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 23 - 07:33 AM

I agree about Sadiq Khan’s ULEZ changes, a bad miscalculation on his part. But there was still a swing to Labour - a 7k Tory majority reduced to 475. On that basis, ‘vulnerable’ Labour seats in Greater London must surely be ‘safer’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 23 - 01:10 PM

But the ULEZ thing has opened a Pandora's box. These schemes are in the offing in several other large urban (Labour) areas. In each case you are, in effect, telling poorer motorists, the ones with older cars, that they'd better scrap them. I bought a diesel in 2010 when the story was that diesels were the saviours of the world. Its emissions were so low that my road tax was thirty quid a year. I changed that car last year and I don't live in the ULEZ zones, so it doesn't apply to me, but if it had my car would have been non-compliant. Had I been told that I either get rid of my car or pay £12.50 per day, not only would I be hopping mad but I'd also feel cheated after having bought it in good faith. Not good enough, Labour, favouring the rich and shitting on the poor.

And give the Tories the notion that single issues can swing elections. Disastrous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 23 - 02:39 PM

As I said previously, I agree about the folly of Khan’s ULEZ expansion, for the reasons you’ve given. And the Tories already know that ‘single issues can swing elections’ - don’t tell me you’ve already forgotten ‘Get Brexit Done’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 23 - 02:49 PM

Exactly!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 23 - 06:47 PM

I said just after he was elected leader that Starmer is a loser and a follower of what he perceives to be fashion. I said that he will not win the next election. Since then we've had Johnson's disreputable behaviour and we've had Truss and Kamikaze, and a pandemic that the Tories handled so badly that there were tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths. I still don't think that Stodgy Starmer will win. At best, he might end up leading the biggest party. Then what. He makes misstep after misstep. He told his MPs that they mustn't join picket lines. The leader of a party spawned by trade unions telling his ministers not to join legitimate trade union pickets! He's tried to sideline the left using the most dishonest and flimsy ploys. He's refused to support public sector unions in their fight against Tory austerity and thirteen years of pay freezes. He supports the Tories' inhuman cap on child benefit. He won't even say that he'll honour pay review body recommendations. Plenty more, including broken pledges. A terrible shadow chancellor. A London Labour mayor who is screwing the poor and indulging the wealthy.

We might hold our noses and do whatever we can to vote out the Tories. Out. But there will be no ringing endorsement of Starmer. Wrong man, wrong time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 23 - 07:26 PM

I said just after he was elected leader that Starmer is a loser and a follower of what he perceives to be fashion. I said that he will not win the next election.

This will continue for as long as Keir Starmer tries to be everything to everybody without committing himself to any policies.

I'm quite happy to let him continue as he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 23 - 02:08 PM

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Khan and Starmer have their private barney about ULEZ. I'll bet anyone here at least sixpence that the policy on ULEZ will change.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jul 23 - 02:10 PM

For once, Steve, I hope you’re right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 23 - 05:03 AM

Feeling the pinch in these days of rip-roaring inflation? Happy to settle (after years of pay freezes and austerity, even though "we are all in it together") for a pay rise around half the rate of inflation? Why, the answer is to be the King! As from 2025, he's to get a 45% rise!

From the Guardian:

...the government has seen fit to offer the new king a rise estimated to be 45% from 2025. The precise figure will depend on profits from the government property portfolio known as the crown estate. The projected increase of £38.5m, taking the sovereign grant from £86m to £125m, undermines King Charles’s often-cited commitment to “slim down” the monarchy.

The decision, which was taken by a committee of three people – prime minister Rishi Sunak, the chancellor Jeremy Hunt, and the keeper of the privy purse, Sir Michael Stevens...

So is this ancient, bumbling national parasite worth it, d'ye think? Does it swing it for you that his missus is such a sparkling, witty personality?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 23 - 05:09 AM

Oh and by the way, during the ten years of Tory austerity since 2013, the Sovereign Grant has gone up from £31 million to £86 million. To them that have, it shall be given, commenteth the Lord....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 Jul 23 - 06:25 AM

.... Man shall not live by bread alone, but try thou convincing thine income tax inspector.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 23 - 06:32 AM

I think you’re preaching to the wrong congregation on here, Steve. I get the feeling that the majority of us are already in agreement with you, and I can think of only one contributor, maybe two, who is/are sufficiently brainwashed by Right-Wing propaganda to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jul 23 - 07:01 AM

"Feeling the pinch in these days of rip-roaring inflation? Happy to settle (after years of pay freezes and austerity, even though "we are all in it together") for a pay rise around half the rate of inflation? Why, the answer is to be the King! As from 2025, he's to get a 45% rise!"

"I think you’re preaching to the wrong congregation on here, Steve. I get the feeling that the majority of us are already in agreement with you, and I can think of only one contributor, maybe two, who is/are sufficiently brainwashed by Right-Wing propaganda to disagree."

Typical lefty group think. Stoking jealousy with lies.

Sovereign Grant only occurs after all income from royal estates go directly to the Treasury. An inconvenient truth for lefties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 23 - 07:12 AM

”I can think of only one contributor, maybe two, who is/are sufficiently brainwashed by Right-Wing propaganda to disagree.”

And, right on cue, up pops the second brainwashed one I was thinking of… :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 23 - 07:55 AM

Yup! The profits from the Crown Estate should go back to the people, which is who the Crown Estate should morally belong to. Instead, a huge sum from those profits is hived off every year to further enrich one of the richest men in the country, a man who does nothing in connection with the Crown Estate to earn that money. In my view it's a massive scandal, but, as ever, the establishment will do its damnedest to legitimise it, and will succeed. That's how people like Stanron are hoodwinked into thinking that it's all OK. Stick a crown and a few robes on Charlie (slaughter a bit of game first), send him abroad every now and then to be cheered by flag-waving picaninnies, get him to ride his regalia-bedecked horse every June and wave at us from a balcony surrounded by his fellow parasites and their brats, and hardly anyone will notice...

Worth a moment looking into the Crown Estate, by the way. It's one of the most powerful institutions in the country. It owns all of our seabed and over half the foreshore, thousands of acres of land and lucrative properties in our towns, cities and countryside, among other things. A graduated land tax would sort 'em out, but there I am again sailing into cloud cuckoo land...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jul 23 - 08:08 AM

Is the Crown more powerful than the banks?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 23 - 07:20 PM

What do you mean by "the Crown"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 23 - 07:54 PM

Mrs Steve and I were very sad when we heard of the passing of George Alagiah. What a fantastic reporter he was, and, by all accounts, he was a great humanitarian and a lovely man to work with.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 23 - 05:51 PM

I'm seeing news reports on the BBC about the devastation caused to civilians in the civil war in Yemen. Villages devastated, children with limbs blown off, that sort of thing. Not a single mention of the fact that we have provided £15 billions of weapons to Saudi and the UAE since the start of the war. Weapons being used to bomb villages and blow children up. Still, never mind. We can just let them infiltrate and take over our biggest sports teams and mop up our best footballers with promises of wages of tens or hundreds of millions a year. I think we call it sportswashing.

Let me guess: oil...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 09:11 AM

When you say the profits from the Crown Estate should go to the people, that is what happens. Or rather, they go to the Treasury, which is as close as "the people" are going to get. The Sovereign Grant isn't the King's wages but is to cover the cost of official duties, including staff salaries and travel. It doesn't go to enrich the King personally, and any surplus goes to a reserve fund to be used for future spending.

It's entirely legitimate to argue that these duties should be reduced in scale, but for the time being most people seem to quite like having a royal come to open their new hospital wing. Even if we replaced the monarchy with a president, that would still have to be paid for.

The Sovereign Grant is higher than usual because it includes the cost of refurbishing Buckingham Palace. The building is an asset of the state, and if it weren't paid for through the Sovereign Grant it would simply come out of some government department's budget.

£125 million sounds a lot, and it is. However set against total government spending of £1,283 billion a year it is a drop in the ocean. If it were to be abolished entirely (and there will always be some costs to have a head of state) this would make no discernible difference to the public finances.

There are very good arguments both for and against abolishing the monarchy, but the Sovereign Grant is a red herring.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: G-Force
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 09:50 AM

£125 million is about £2 each, which is less than half a pint in a pub round here. I'd miss the monarchy but I don't notice the half pint.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 09:57 AM

I'd rather have the half.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 10:31 AM

Minimising the impact of the grant on us all is the real red herring. It's the principle of the thing. He's one of the country's richest men yet we get to pay for his new roof "because it's a state asset." Really? It's actually a very average building and an "asset" to no-one except brainless tourists who go to gawp through the railings. And you'd have a tough time showing that its presence brings in any extra revenue, as (as has been mentioned several times before) hardly any of the "royal assets" ever make the top twenty tourist attractions in this country. We'd get by very nicely thank you in terms of tourism without their "assets." Pretending that it doesn't matter because it's only the price of a half-pint he's stealing from each and every one of us is like me justifying stealing a bunch of bananas from Sainsbury's because "they're only worth a quid." Yeah, right...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 01:24 PM

"brainless tourists who go to gawp"

And how many places have you gone to gawp? Or does that count?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 02:18 PM

I doubt many publicly owned buildings generate income, that is not really what most state activities are intended for. Nevertheless the royal residences earned nearly £50m from tourism in 2019-20.

Buck House is mainly an administrative building for the head of state, with offices and function rooms. Come the revolution you can sell it off, and it might raise enough to pay for the NHS for a day or two. Until then it is the responsibility of the state. It is not the King's roof, it is the government's, and they are giving him the money to fix it. An elected head of state will still need an official residence and an administration.

The role of head of state, whether a hereditary monarch or elected president, is a function of government to be paid for from the public purse, which is funded by taxation and income from revenue-producing activities, including the Crown Estate. It is legitimate to question those costs, and in a democracy to campaign for change. However it is a nonsense to claim that this is "stealing" from us, any more than the costs of running other state functions such as 10 Downing Street, the Foreign Office or indeed your local library are stealing from us.

In the context of the public finances £125m is a rounding error.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 03:49 PM

When an extremely rich man is obtaining the price of a half-pint from someone on a low wage who relies on food banks, and does it without that person's permission, I call that stealing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 06:40 PM

"Buck House is mainly an administrative building for the head of state, with offices and function rooms."

Absolutely not the case. Do read the wiki article on Buckingham Palace. You'll be amazed at what goes on there on top of the "administrative" side of things (which could easily be executed in ordinary offices anywhere in the country, by the way). And we pay for it, including the hundreds of millions needed to renovate it. As for the Crown Estate, and those huge "duchies" that Charlie owns, they simply should not exist beyond full nationalised control, and the filthy-rich monarch should not be able to hive off tens or hundreds of millions per annum from them for purposes that are generally hidden from public view and which are dubious at best.

Finally, are you able to tell us what happens to the fifty million that the "royal residences"(gosh, don't they need so many of them! Still, I don't suppose there are too many grouse to shoot at round Buckingham Palace) earned last year?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 06:42 PM

That Charlie or his parasitic offspring owns, I should have said...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 07:36 PM

Steve: hardly any of the "royal assets" ever make the top twenty tourist attractions in this country.

This site gives:
#9 The Tower of London
#11 Buckingham Palace
#12 Windsor Castle

Would you care to let us know where you find your top 20?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 08:01 PM

So your best shot is Buck House at number 11! And we've had this thing about the Tower of London before, haven't we? Would you care to tell us when it was last occupied by any royal? And please don't regale me with the fact that it's the shameful home of the disgusting Crown Jewels...

As for the most popular, it's depends on which website you look things up. The Visit Britain site gives two top ten lists, free ones and paid ones. No royal attraction makes it to either list, not even the Tower if you really insist on having it as a royal attraction, which I heartily dispute. And that website does it by numbers of visitors, not by someone's subjective opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 08:12 PM

That is a bit of a daft presumption, isn't it?

Do you really believe that the draw to the Tower of London is the current members of the royal family? I would have thought that the attraction would be the associations with William the Conqueror, the tudors, imprisonments, tortures and executions, the ravens. In all, distant history - I don;t think the 1940s executions are much of a royal connection. I will concede that the crown jewels is an attraction, but I would dispute id this would a sole reason or even a main reason for visiting the attraction. I would argue that people visit Windsor castle because it is a castle that is accessible and just outside of London. I suppose I should concede regarding Buckingham Palace which would mean that the royal family co contributes to no more than 5% if hospitability and tourism. Also, if the monarchy was abolished, would Buckingham Palace be any less of interest? From my knowledge the Palace of Versailles doesn't suffer in visitor numbers through France being a republic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 23 - 08:25 PM

Good post. Just to reiterate that the Visit Britain website includes neither Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle nor the Tower in either top ten. Though I must say, you did forget the Beefeaters... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 06:12 AM

In the British constitution (and we do have one, even if it's not set out in a single document) "the Crown" represents what in other countries might be referred to as the State. It includes not only the Sovereign but also the executive (the UK and devolved governments), the legislature (parliament) and the judiciary. Most of the powers of the Crown are exercised by these institutions.

You don't seem to recognise the distinction between Charles as an individual and the position he holds. As an individual is indeed very wealthy (although not exceptionally so - he is only 263 in the Sunday Times Rich List). However as Sovereign he also performs an official role on behalf of the State, and the cost of this should be paid for by the State. These costs don't come out of your or my taxes but from income from property owned by the State.

You call for the Crown Estate to be nationalised. The Crown Estate belongs to the Sovereign, but this means the role rather than the person holding it. In other words, it belongs to the State, and to all intents and purposes has done since the eighteenth century. It is not King Charles's personal property. It is managed by an independent board who are accountable to Parliament, and its profits all go to the Treasury. In what respect is this not nationalised?

The State has overheads, which include the costs of performing the Sovereign's official duties. To repeat myself, the Sovereign Grant is not a personal payment to the King, any more than the £22m or so it costs to run Downing Street are a personal payment to Rishi Sunak.

You may consider some of these costs to be unnecessary or wasteful. That's a perfectly respectable point of view. However in the context of total public spending the amount is trivial, and even if the Sovereign Grant were to be abolished entirely it would make no discernible different to the public finances.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 06:26 AM

"However in the context of total public spending the amount is trivial"

Perhaps you could arrange for me to have just 10% of the costs of running Downing Street, as you say £2.2 million is a trivial amount. I promise you will never hear me complain ever again.


.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 06:37 AM

Steve: Good post. Just to reiterate that the Visit Britain website includes neither Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle nor the Tower in either top ten. Though I must say, you did forget the Beefeaters... :-

Nice of you to iterate. But you haven't given a link to your source. Yes 'Visit Britain' can be searched, and their list of attractions is Here
Not only is it false to claim that The Tower doesn't appear, it is listed as No1 in the 'paid' attractions.

So your best shot is Buck House at number 11! And we've had this thing about the Tower of London before, haven't we? Would you care to tell us when it was last occupied by any royal? 1603 apparently

Shifting the goalposts?
hardly any of the "royal assets" ever make the top twenty tourist attractions in this country.

There is a difference between 'royal assets' and assets 'occupied' by royals.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 06:48 AM

Well I'm not going to argue with you over those technicalities but I'd like to come back at you with two points. First, so he's "only" no 263 on the Sunday Times rich list and you don't think that's exceptional. Well in a country of sixty-odd million people, I think that 263rd richest is exceptionally exceptional. By the way, he's as rich as that because he inherited his riches, not because he worked for them, and his ancestors amassed that wealth over centuries by nefarious means, including taking it from the people, exploiting the labour of the people and indulging in the slave trade. Nice.

Second, you say that the amount is trivial in the overall scheme of things. Apart from the fact that £125 million is hardly what I'd call trivial, it's the principle of the thing. Millions of people in this country, given the choice and the facts of the matter, would probably disapprove of this gift from the nation, but choice in the matter we have not. As for his necessary expenses, etc., which he has the money hundreds of times over to pay for out of his own pocket, he travels everywhere in the lap of luxury and is carted around, not in a J-reg Astra or on Ryanair but in a fleet limousines that has cost us millions and in private jets that are entirely at his disposal. A bit more comfy than my budget flight to Malaga in a few weeks' time, yet I'm giving HIM money and he gives me nothing.

Trivial? Well that bunch of bananas I'm thinking of stealing from Sainsbury's is trivial to Sainsbury's, almost representing a victimless crime. But you wouldn't defend it, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 06:51 AM

Of course to you or me these are large sums. But in the context of total public spending of £1182 billion a year the £125m Sovereign Grant represents only 0.01%. As I said in a previous post, that's a rounding error.

If every penny of public expenditure were spent effectively then perhaps if the Sovereign Grant were abolished it might make a difference. The fact is that some waste and inefficiencies are inevitable even in the most rigorous organisation, and the public sector does not have a record of rigorous financial controls or efficiencies. The reality is that even if the Sovereign Grant could be entirely abolished it would not enable the government to cut taxes or improve public services. This is why I used the word "trivial".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 06:54 AM

Oops, sorry, Nigel. I failed to spot that narrow white strip at the top of the table. That doesn't change my view that the Tower should in no way be regarded as a royal asset. As you point out, it has not be used by the royals for four hundred years except to house their disgusting collection of jewellery, which anyone with even a smidgeon of principle should boycott.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 06:56 AM

Nice bit of whataboutery there, Howard.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 09:13 AM

That's not really the point Howard. The bloke could easily afford the £125 million a year himself but the government choses to pay it out of taxes raised on everyones income. Including mine and yours. I object most strongly to my meagre income being used to subsidise the 263rd richest person in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 11:33 AM

People aren't normally expected to pay the running costs of doing their job. For example, if a minister travels on official business you'd expect their department to pay for their travel costs regardless of their personal wealth. Why should the King be different? We don't expect Rishi Sunak, who's very nearly as rich, to pay for the costs of Downing Street and its staff out of his own pocket. The Sovereign Grant is actually the budget for running a department of the state. It is not a payment into the King's own pocket for him to use for his own purposes. If the monarchy were to be replaced by an elected president would you expect them to pay for all the costs of official business themselves?

Neither does it come out of your or my taxes. It comes out of the income from property owned by the state. State spending runs at over £3 billion pounds a day, and abolishing the Sovereign Grant would pay for less than an hour of that. That's not going to bring down your or my taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 12:33 PM

It's still money that doesn't rightfully belong to him whether you call it tax or not. I don't equate what he does with a "job", either. And comparing his "expenses" with those of the PM is simply laughable. The PM runs the country and, on the whole, does not indulge at frequent intervals in extravagant pageantry. When the PM resigns or loses an election, he's booted out of Downing Street in summary fashion. That can never be the fate of Charlie apropos of Buckingham Palace or any of his other ill-gotten residences.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 12:56 PM

Doing his job Howard? How does that equate to earning millions from the properties that he inherited from the people who 'acquired' them in various dodgy ways or being paid for doing sweet FA in the running of the country? I would never expect people to pay for doing an honest day's work but you are being very disingenuous suggesting that Charlie is doing either an honest day's work or making money for the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 04:01 PM

The Royal Family carried out around 3000 engagements last year. These included community visits, meeting visiting heads of state, investitures, garden parties etc. It doesn't include the weekly meetings with the PM, approving legislation or other constitutional duties. You may think these unnecessary or pointless pageantry, but successive governments have agreed that these are appropriate activities for the head of state. They are not of a nature which directly generates income for the country, but indirectly they contribute to international relations, and community visits and garden parties help to boost morale within the UK.

If you don't like that, campaign for change to elect a government which will get rid of it, as may happen soon in Australia. However I think you'll find that an elected president has a very similar workload. Take a look at the Irish president's engagements for example and you'll see they are of a very similar nature.

Steve is concerned that the money "doesn't rightfully belong to him", but it goes to him only in the same way as a government department's budget goes to the Secretary of State. The money is to cover the costs of the king's official duties. It doesn't go to the king personally. As far as I am aware he isn't paid a salary for performing these official duties, and his personal expenditure comes out of his private income.

You seem to have an inflated idea of his personal wealth. The Sunday Times Rich List estimates his personal wealth at £600m. That's a very tidy sum, but it's capital, not income. He could not "well afford" to pay £125m a year. Do the sums.

To repeat, these are the facts:

The Crown Estate belongs to the state, it is not the personal property of the monarch. 100% of its profits go to the Treasury, and its board is answerable to parliament. For those calling for it to be nationalised, that has effectively been the position since the eighteenth century.

The Sovereign Grant does not come out of general taxation but from the profits of the Crown Estate.

The Sovereign Grant is to cover the costs of the official duties of the monarch. It does not go to the king personally. It is overseen by trustees who are also answerable to parliament. Any surplus does not go into the king's pocket but to a reserve fund.

The Sovereign Grant amounts to around 0.01% of all public expenditure. Any changes to it either way don't materially affect the public finances. There are many respectable arguments for getting rid of the monarchy, but the cost savings to the public purse would not be noticeable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 04:28 PM

It's not the cost saving to the public purse. It's the principle. Anyway, you're a dyed-in-the-wool royalist and I'm a republican (small r please). Sadly, the twain are unlikely to meet in this case. I'm sure you're a lovely, jovial fellow. That'll do me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 05:48 PM

Michael D Higgins, the President of Ireland, earns 250,000 Euro for his role.

I make that 1 500th of the fee.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 23 - 06:04 PM

More facts about the Sovereign Grant that could have Howard shifting uncomfortably from one buttock to the other:

The money pays not just for Charlie's junkets but also for those of a good number of royal hangers-on, identities unspecified. The Queen's funeral and his subsequent coronation cost the taxpayer over £200 million. It's late but I'll keep digging...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 23 - 05:53 PM

Steve:
Imagine this.
We go back to everyone owning their own little plot of land, and using it to grow vegetables (and if they're very lucky to fatten livestock).
If they can't provide for their families just from this, and from trading food for services that they require (work on their habitations, etc.) They will probably end up using someone (further up the 'food chain') to arrange a 'fair' method of exchanging what they can produce for what they need to buy.
Allowing for this intermediary to make some sort of a living from this eventually you'll get a system where those who produce foodstuffs and are providing goods to those who can't, need a middle-man arranging the dealings, and taking a cut.
Eventually the middle-man will expand what he's doing and make a small profit from everyone who he is helping to deal 'what they have' for 'what they want' as people with a product to sell don't always want something that their prospective buyers want to exchange.

Just swap the 'government' or 'the royal family' for the 'middle man'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Jul 23 - 06:43 PM

€250,000 is the President of Ireland's salary. That does actually go into his own pocket, whereas as far as I am aware the King does not receive a salary. The cost of running the Office of the President is more than €4.8m. That is of course considerably less than the Sovereign Grant, but it covers the same sort of expenses - staff, office costs, travel etc.

I can't find a figure for the number of engagements the President carries out, but it is probably in the hundreds rather than the 3000 or so carried out by the Royal Family, which as you point out includes those carried out by other working royals as well as the king, so of course the costs are less.

If you like to think of these engagements as "junkets" fair enough, although they seem to be popular with the public. You may wish to replace the monarchy with a republic. but I think you'll find that in many republics the president's role includes similar junkets. I also think you'll find that the state pays for them. Republics also have state funerals and investitures. However I quite understand if you feel there are too many of these junkets and that they're unnecessary.

You say "it's a matter of principle". To me, the principle is that the state should pay for activities carried out on its behalf. However I'll leave it there, as you've clearly made your mind up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jul 23 - 10:09 AM

The British monarch can't be arrested or be the subject of civil and criminal proceedings, meaning he is effectively exempt from the law. King Charles enjoys sovereign immunity, meaning he can't be prosecuted under a civil or criminal investigation.

HOWEVER I could sue Steve Shaw for defamation or pay to have 4,000 of his internet posts removed but since I use a fictional avatar it complicates matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 23 - 10:24 AM

Everything you do seems fictional Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 23 - 03:48 PM

It’s frictional too, Dave - it certainly rubs some people the wrong way! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 23 - 03:52 PM

BG :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 23 - 05:00 PM

Go ahead, Donuel! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jul 23 - 05:39 PM

As an internet ghost, you aren't worth a pense of legal fees.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 23 - 03:51 AM

Ignoring American attempts to derail this thread, and back to UK Politics - Attila the Stockbroker on FarceBook this morning, finger right on the button as usual…

”The planet is burning and Sunak is issuing new oil and gas licences, ripping up commitments and sending a message to the world that the U.K. doesn’t give a monkey’s. He’s doing it because he thinks it will glean the Tories working class votes. And his excuse is that these new fields will use ‘carbon capture’ technology.

Now I may be wrong, but I seem to remember this phrase from the latter days of the miners’ campaign, when it was posited as a way of keeping pits open while minimising carbon emissions.

Back then of course it was dismissed out of hand, because closing pits and wrecking communities was a Tory ideological class war decision which had nothing to do with climate change concerns - the coal was simply imported from elsewhere.

If it had been implemented then there would have been less carbon in the atmosphere and fewer mining communities destroyed - but destroying mining communities was the Tories’ Thatcherite aim. Back then, they were ‘the enemy within’, and obliterating them was part of a strategy to cut off the head of the trade union movement and destroy organised labour once and for all.

But in this new era, when the right wing tabloids have, incredibly, managed to persuade some of those very same communities to switch sides by blaming ‘immigrants’ for the crimes committed by the Tories, feeding xenophobia and stoking division, re-opening oil and gas fields and granting new mining licences is seen as a strategy to win votes.

And, as before, the climate crisis doesn’t even enter the equation. It’s all just a cynical electioneering strategy.

Close down communities for ideological and electoral reasons, offer them false hope on the same basis. A cynical crime against the planet.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Aug 23 - 04:58 AM

The planet isn't burning in Clayton Manchester UK. It's colder here than it has been for the last four weeks and five days. 14 degrees C as I write this. Perhaps it's a Guarniad typo and he meant to write " The Lefties are boring".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 01 Aug 23 - 05:56 AM

Time was when people would complain of unduly cold weather, and I'd say "I blame global warming", meaning climate change shifting the weather patterns around. England's suffering a mild cold spell this week, while much of Europe, and the rest of the world, burns. Be careful what you wish for, Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Aug 23 - 06:36 AM

Backwoodsman:
If you're going to blockquote some external source could you at least give your opinions on the matter, not just state "finger right on the button"?

For example, do you agree with his comment "because closing pits and wrecking communities was a Tory ideological class war decision"? Are you aware, or is he aware, that more pits were closed under Wilson (Lab.) than under Thatcher (Con.) ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 01 Aug 23 - 06:51 AM

My memory of the time was that the pits were closing anyway .... but that Maggie Hatchett chose that hill for Arthur Scargill to die on, and he obliged her.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 23 - 06:59 AM

My opinion of the miners’ strike and its aftermath is that the miners were cannon-fodder in a war of opposing political ideologies conducted by two crackpots.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 23 - 07:49 AM

And “Finger right on the button” was my opinion, Nigel. No need to write ‘War and Peace’, that’s the speciality of others on the forum.

FWIW, the difference between pit-closures during Wilson’s tenure and those of the Thatcher years is the matter of intent and purpose - in the case of the Wilson closures, the intent was to make the coal industry operate more efficiently and thereby ensure its continuation, whereas Thatcher’s intent - as Attila pointed out correctly in his piece - was to break the trade-unions, emasculate worker-power, and destroy the industry. It was a vicious, politically-driven, ideological enterprise, and a major part of the Tory Class-war of that period.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 23 - 07:52 AM

Apologies, pressed the ‘Go’ button before I added the disclaimer -

“As always, the standard disclaimer applies - IMHO, and YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 23 - 07:52 PM

Anyone wanna buy a third-hand defunct barge, seats 500, or possibly none...? And has anyone seen Suella recently?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Aug 23 - 03:19 AM

They should tow it up the Thames and moor it by the Palace of Westminster. Then it could be used to house MPs, and save the taxpayer a fortune by removing the opportunity for those ‘second-home’ flip-flop scams they seem to love so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Aug 23 - 08:01 AM

"Anyone wanna buy a third-hand defunct barge, seats 500, or possibly none...?"

I was not aware that the owners were looking to sell.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 23 - 08:53 AM

If they find anything else wrong with it, it'll be scrap value only. By the way, even if it fills right up it will hold just 1% of asylum seekers. Anyone got another 99 going spare?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Aug 23 - 09:14 AM

Scrap value only? Your best joke yet.

Once they have cleared up the Legionella bacteria problem I am sure that there will still be a use for it somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Aug 23 - 09:51 AM

I think Cruella is looking to buy it and make a quick profit. Probably sell it to Rwanda...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 14 Aug 23 - 10:01 AM

Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.
                                 -- H. L. Mencken

The purpose of the barge is not to house asylum seekers: it's to provide headline fodder about a moral panic they stirred up in the first place.

.... Hm: It's been reported that the political "silly season" went away. *bzzt* Wrong: it's silly season the year round.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 23 - 11:03 AM

Well still no planes full of refugees to Rwanda and still no asylum seekers on the barge. So Cruella goes to the US, gives a speech to a right-wing think-tank in which she disses the 70-year-old UN refugee convention and does a nice bit of dog-whistling to her disreputable fellow-travellers about women and gay people seeking refuge too lightly. Cruella for PM! (which is clearly what she's after).

Now Fishi Rishi has sanctioned drilling for oil in Rosebank, the biggest undeveloped oilfield in the North Sea - and stodgy Starmer has said he won't revoke the licence when he gets in. A disastrous Sunak decision, coming on top of his rowing back of other environmental policies last week, and one which Starmer could have stopped in its tracks. In the words of Corporal Fraser, we're all doomed...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 30 Sep 23 - 08:30 AM

Short quote from this week's New European, from Tanit Koch's "Germanspaining" column:

With the far-right AfD polling well above 20%, the public discourse has changed drastically. So former Bundenpräsident Joachim Gauck took the lead. He doesn't want to leave it to the extremists, who never solve problems because they live off them.

.... I've never heard the problem with extremists stated so concisely before.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 02:24 AM

So how do we translate that to UK politics? The far right groups we had here never had serious high poll ratings but they frightened the mainstream parties enough to move them further right than they have been in my voting lifetime. We now have a Labour Party that are vaguely pink, Liberals that align themselves with Tories and Tories that want to implement NF policies. How can we hope to recentre things?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 06:42 AM

Populism is alive and well at the Tory conference, judging by Coutinho’s and Harper’s speeches - in particular, lots of Labour-slagging and Harper declaring the Conservative Party to be ‘The pro-car Party’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 07:25 AM

DtG the problem has been that for the last 13 years there has been a movement of the centre ground of politics increasingly to the right. We would all love to have radical socialist policies in place, but what was eft of centre 13 years ago are far left to where the political centre is now.

Labour cannot regain power until it has reclaimed the centre-ground, and then, and only then, it can start to move the pendulum back towards the left.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 07:40 AM

100!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 07:45 AM

Bugger! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 09:36 AM

Labour can't "regain power." The Tories will lose power and Labour will carry on with all the current Tory policies. Labour's motto seems to be "drop a pledge a week." Starmer is what we used to call the despicable LibDems, i.e., Tory-lite. In his case, very lite-weight, no courage, no charisma, no vision, no principles.

Saw a great slogan last night, can't remember where now, might have been in the comments section below the Spurs-Liverpool match (aka fiasco) report. It said (and pardon my French) "Fuck VAR and the Tories."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 23 - 06:37 AM

HS2 - I wonder what the government are using it to distract us from? The vast majority of UK citizens will never travel on it and won’t be affected by it no matter where it runs to.
Birmingham? Manchester? Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn (and I’d stake my pension that most UK residents don’t either)!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 09:04 AM

If you're 14 today you'll never legally be able to buy fags. Spot the hidden caveat in that sentence. And the Tories have overseen a cynical industry grooming kids to go vape-crazy. Never mind. All that saved HS2 money ("every penny of it") will be used to improve little bits of railways all over the place instead. Yeah, right, along with those 40 new hospitals.

If HS2 had gone ahead, Labour would have carried on with it. Now that it's gone, Labour won't carry on with it. Be prepared for a massive Tory defeat, then nothing changes, then Cruella for PM in five years' time. Weeee!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 09:26 AM

Steve: If you're 14 today you'll never legally be able to buy fags. Spot the hidden caveat in that sentence.
I'm guessing the 'caveat' you mean is that word 'legally'.

I'd rather spot the inaccuracy. If you're 14 now, but haven't yet had a birthday this year you were born before 1 Jan 2009, so can continue to buy cigarettes (once you're 18). The new law doesn't catch you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 10:25 AM

That indeed was it, Nigel. Underage kids have never had real issues getting their hands on fags or booze. I did both with gay abandon in my misspent yoof. I bought my first pint in a pub at 16 and I was wearing my full school uniform! It cost me 1s 11d by the way. In those days you could get 20 Players No 10 for half a crown. We'd buy a Watney's Party Four, take it down the park and bust the can open with a screwdriver. It was bloody 'orrible, flat as a witch's t*t.   Pour it straight down the lav and cut out the middle man...

The Tory cigarette thing and the ban-phones-in-schools thing are "good things" but they are deliberate petty sideshows. Typical Tory conference bullshit. I'm sure we'll see the same next week.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 04:10 AM

This one tickles me. Just shows how out of touch they are with the North

Tories promise Manchester a tram extension that already exists!

My son #1, daughter in law #2 and grandson #2 were there protesting on Sunday. Proud of them all! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 12:35 PM

If you are raiaing the legal age to buy cigarettes one year per year then in say 15 years you will need to be challenging people to prove they are 30 and not 29.

I don't see how you are going to do that without some form of national ID system.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 02:27 PM

Mrs. Backwoodsperson and I had exactly that conversation, and we both wondered if it’s the first step towards ID Cards?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Captain Swing
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 03:44 PM

I remember going on two school visits aged 15 in 5th yr (Y11 in today's money). One was to the Lincolnshire Show and the other was to see a production of Hamlet. We managed to get served with pints of brown ale on both occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 23 - 06:16 PM

This SNP/Labour thang. Good win, very impressive, etc. But...

Is this a classic case of incumbents losing and challengers indulging in hubris?

Tories: imploded for years, laughing stock, etc: lose their deposit.

SNP: scandal over MP that had held the seat, broke covid law big-time, etc. Finance scandal over Nicola Sturgeon. No progress regarding independence push. Low turnout. Etc.

Pundits are saying that this means Labour could get 40 Scottish seats. My arse. Not a chance. This was a by-election, a low-turnout protest vote. Blew the doors off, eh? More like found the wrong car key and had to go back in the house to look for the right one.

Never a truer word was spoken: governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them. There's a lot of work to do. I'm still a Labour Party member, by the way. And there's a whole bunch of antisemitism inconvenience coming up that will hardly make the party top-dogs look good...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 23 - 02:13 PM

The is a ry irritating form of punditry about. The first sentence warns you cannot read too much into a single by election result. Then every following sentence makes exactly that assumption.

What I would say is the result is morale-boosting for Labour and morale-sapping for the SNP. I don't think I would go much further.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 23 - 02:23 PM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 23 - 01:23 PM

Something a bit intriguing happening. I can post messages to mudcat from my phone, but not from my PC. Obviously something antiviral is blocking me...

Ehat I was going to say is the Labour Policy document makes interesting reading as far as setting the direction is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Oct 23 - 10:10 AM

i was a corbyn supporter but it was horrible canvassing for him in the last election in workington. i voted for starmer as leader - same policies (up the '19 manifesto!) plus electability. i've left the party (again - 3rd time. or maybe 4th) i;m now reduced to longing to see tory tears on election night and a hope for some decent policies. looks like we won't have a strong snp government as an inspiration either .all depressing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 23 - 08:12 PM

We have a prime minister and a leader of the opposition who are both one hundred percent blinkered about the Israel/Hamas conflict. I have heard barely a single word of sympathy for the wretched and desperate people of Gaza from either of them. It's all the fault of Hamas, Israel has the right to defend itself, blah blah. It's not Hamas that has cut off water, food and fuel to the outdoor prison which is Gaza. It's not Hamas that has bombed hospitals and schools. It's not Hamas that has killed many hundreds of children and it's not Hamas that has created a million refugees. You don't need to do any of those things to unarmed civilians in order to "defend yourself." Sunak and Starmer are in the pockets of the pro-Israel lobby and they are frightened to death of saying anything that sounds even remotely like a glimmer of criticism of the Israeli regime. Starmer wouldn't even say that it's OK to sport a Palestinian flag in the street, a straight lift from the Suella Braverman near-fascist creed. That was in Starmer's interview with Nick Ferrari on LBC and I could hardly believe the pusillanimous self-deception I was hearing from the bloke who's probably going to be the next PM. Pathetic and totally unfair.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 08:50 AM

Starmer's pusillanimous and unconditional support for Israel and his apparent lack of sympathy or at least his silence, for the plight of millions in Gaza is too much for me. The failure of western leaders to condemn and sanction the Israeli regime will give Netanyahu succour and they will be complicit in the future slaughter of civilians in Gaza. It's the last straw and I'm leaving the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 10:48 AM

You're not leaving Labour Steve. I am not sure what it is but it sure ain't the party we joined!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 11:08 AM

Starmer's letter to the councillors who have or are thinking of resigning over this

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 12:00 PM

I didn't manage to read all that as it wouldn't format for me, but I got the drift. Again, the platitudes flow freely but there is no condemnation of the horrors inflicted by Israel, just that by Hamas. Inexcusable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 05:08 PM

In Sir Keith's own words, Steve. Talking about the by-election

"I know there are people who probably voted Tory in the past who vote for a changed Labour Party this time because they despair at the state of their own party"

Code for the Labour Party has become the Party that pissed off tories vote for :-( You are better off out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 05:19 PM

He wouldn't let his ministers stand on health workers' picket lines, he told them that they mustn't join pro-Palestine demonstrations, he refused to back the nurses' and junior doctors' fight for fair pay. Now he refuses to criticise even the most egregious of Israel's outrages and he says they have every right to deny food and water to two million civilians, a war crime. That's not Labour and it's definitely not me. I've held my nose over several other of his swerves to the right, but I've had enough now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 25 Oct 23 - 10:49 AM

> The first sentence warns you cannot read too much into a single by
> election result. Then every following sentence makes exactly that
> assumption.

That's straight out of the "I'm not an unreasonable person but" book.* I heard many years ago that the trick is to read up to the "but", and take the inverse of what goes before it as the speaker's POV; the rest of the statement can then optionally be disregarded as too obvious to need to be stated.

* It's a standard rhetorical technique. Fifty bonus points for correctly naming it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 23 - 06:51 AM

A below-the-line comment about Starmer in the Guardian:

"If you say Israel 'has the right' to withhold power and water from Gaza then, a few days later, following a consequent outcry, say ‘it is not and never has been my view that Israel had the right to cut off water, food, fuel or medicines,’ you are revealing three things about yourself.

You have appalling judgement, you are dishonest and you are a reactive, rather than a proactive, leader."

I couldn't agree more. Starmer is the wrong leader for Labour and he'd be the wrong leader for this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 23 - 03:57 PM

I see that Bozzer has joined GB news

Need I say more?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 23 - 10:49 AM

The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie, is exceptionally critical of Starmer's stance on Gaza-Israel. I suppose the conflict could have receded into the background by the next election, but, if it hasn't, and he maintains his one-sided stance on the issue, he could lose an awful lot of Muslim votes, many of them up in northern towns which he has to win or win back. He's also at odds with the SNP and large numbers of Labour MPs as well as the mayors of London and Manchester. I note that Starmer is a member of Labour Friends of Israel, along with people such as Yvette Cooper, the disreputable Margaret Hodge, David Lammy, Wes Streeting and Emily Thornberry. And that 76% of the electorate want a ceasefire. I know it's not just about votes, but can we have at least just a bit of principle and humanity from a party that likes to think it's socialist?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 07:58 AM

With the Covid enquiry well on the way, and the admission from political advisors that the government was so ill prepared, the least the pandemic could have done is waited until we had a competent government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM

The lame-duck excuse I keep hearing from people like Starmer (and lots of Israeli big-shots and western leaders) is that we shouldn't have a ceasefire because we know that bastards like Hamas wouldn't stick to it anyway. Well blow me down. No giving peace a chance round 'ere, then...

The reason Starmer and Sunak won't call for a ceasefire has nothing to do with that. They are both in the pockets of the US, and the reason the US won't call for a ceasefire is that it's in the pocket of Israel and the pro-Israel lobby.

Call a ceasefire. Release all the hostages. Call off the collective punishment. Release the 5000 Palestinians who are in jail in Israel, a thousand or more held without charge, women, children, the lot. Then sit down and talk about it. If Paisley and McGuinness could do it, anyone can do it. I'm bloody sick of seeing the same outrages on me telly every night.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 03:30 PM

Starmer is wriggling. He's trying to shut up the critics in his party by "criticising" Israel, a little bit. But still no ceasefire call. No principles on show here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 23 - 07:03 PM

"David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary who visited the region last week, said that the “number of dead Palestinian civilians and children is shocking” as he called on Israel to take further steps to stop a “humanitarian catastrophe”. He said that Israel “must uphold international law” and also warned of violence in the West Bank."

Talk about soft words. Why couldn't he say that Israel has been breaching international law for four weeks. Yes it's shocking. Yeah, David, how did we ever know that before you told us. Thanks for telling us what we already know in spades, David. Yes Israel should uphold international law. Thing is, Israel never does. But Lammy, a member of Labour Friends of Israel (aka a man in the pocket of the pro-Israel lobby) can't criticise Israel. His party leader will make sure of that. In a word, bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 06:10 AM

An excellent poem from Paul Cookson, on FB today. Says it all…

”Daily poem - Suella Braverman, once again the inspiration ... unfortunately

LIFESTYLE CHOICE

I could have escaped to the country
I could have lived by the sea
I could have chosen anywhere
But this is the place for me
Handy for all amenities
In that I can rejoice
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

Yes to the freezing nights
Yes to the driving rain
And if I had to choose once more
I’d choose the same again
Yes to constant hunger
Cold and always moist
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

I love my cardboard notice
Asking for your charity
I love the fact I can rely
On other people’s sympathy
These things you don’t understand
While stuck in your Rolls Royce
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

This is not a style of life
That I would recommend
To my worst enemy
Never mind a friend
But you hear what you want to hear
You cannot hear my voice
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

Your ignorance – deliberate
Like the heartless views you voiced
Indicative of where you are
And your lifestyle choice

Poem 1195
Sunday 5th November 2023”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 06:34 AM

The only reason I will (extremely reluctantly) hope for at least two Labour terms after the next election is that Braverman is not unlikely to be the next Tory leader. The woman is the nearest thing to being a true fascist we have in Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:36 AM

Noticed that that piece of toxic proverbial had provided more proof the ALL tories and their supporters are racists, why else would it spout on about homeless people being mostly foreigners. did it personally check all their passports?

What is the betting that the tory **** are too tight fisted to buy homes out of their own pockets to give homeless people a place to live rent free until they get back on their feet, and then pay an affordable rent.

Where are the high streets with the rows and rows of tents? I haven't seen any, or is it referring to camp sites? Maybe it believes that homeless people should report for just be wiped of the face of the earth so that it doesn't have to look at the problem its party and the pathetic excuse for human skin that votes for it have created just because it lowers the value of their properties.

There is no room for neo-n****m in my society, so as far as I am concern, every tory voter should be deported to some tin pot, extreme right dictatorship with appalling human rights where they can live happily amongst their own kind, and we can get back to being a decent, caring welcoming society.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:37 AM

I really should have just said what I really thought, rather than holding back just now

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 11:46 AM

DIves and Lazarus
“Thou are none of mine, brother Lazarus,
Lying begging at my door,
No meat, no drink, will I give thee,
Nor bestow upon the poor.”


Some things don't change much.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:30 PM

"The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie,"

The title alone would suggest that it is 'leftie', although possibly not sufficiently so for those with more extreme views.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:49 PM

Try having a read of it, Nige.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 23 - 05:28 AM

Sorry, Nigel - I don't know where the 'ell that 'l' went...:-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 08:25 AM

I'm sure that if I read 'Labour List' I would find it leftie even if not extremely so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 09:32 AM

Well read it and see. I'd put it at dead-centre Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 12:48 PM


I have no idea who Mark Park is, but if this is accurate it suggests that, despite all the claims Labour is tearing itself apart over the IreIsrael-Palestine, it has little or no effect on their lead. These surveys seem to have taken place before Cummings and co were questioned by the covid enquiry.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 12:50 PM

Damn! Forgot to close the link, and it seems to bring up adverts anyway. Try searching for the latest opinion polls and Mark Park had a table of about 8 of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 06:11 PM

From a Guardian letter responding to suggestions that the marches on Armistice weekend should be called off, or even banned:

...I shall be marching for a small boy, surrounded by siblings, standing in the ruins of his neighbourhood whose cry, “We’ve done nothing wrong”, has so much more power and honesty than UK politicians who seek to divide us with their claims that the marches are “hate-filled” or “disrespectful”.

I'm not big on hate, but I could so easily come to hate these sanctimonious, mealy-mouthed hypocrites who appear on our screens to criticise the marches straight after we've just watched the nightly routine of the horrors being visited on the civilians of Gaza who have done nothing wrong. The people who we commemorate on Armistice day died so that those of us who come after can enjoy democracy, our human rights and freedom of expression. A plague on the houses of those hypocrites.

And please don't tell me that I'm not criticising Hamas or being fair to Israel. I've done that on every possible occasion in these threads, but my current gaze is on the plight of the benighted civilians of Gaza. That little boy is just one of thousands of children living or dying or being maimed for over a month in conditions that no child should have to endure, and we seem to have decided to be no more than spectators.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Nov 23 - 05:56 AM

For some reason, the original third verse in "All things bright and beautiful" tends to not appear in modern hymnals. It went:

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them, high or lowly,
And ordered their estate

Oh, and for completeness, my father used to leave in the verse ending

The rushes by the river
We gather ev'ry day

.... partly from simple mischief, and partly to see how many of the congregation engaged their brains while singing hymns.

NB: No tents were harmed in the production of this comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 11:54 AM

It is looking like the pro-Palestine march in London has been very peaceful, despite the efforts of some anti-march protestors.

Now the remaining risk is what happens as people try to leave the march and head home.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 03:06 PM

Steve: Back to your lane.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 04:27 PM

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 04:39 PM

Yes, DMcG. It seems most arrests were of right wing anti-protesters!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 06:48 AM

Sunak last night condemned the “violent, wholly unacceptable” scenes. He said both the far right and “Hamas sympathisers” had been responsible.

Liar. There were no violent scenes on a march of around half a million people (a bit of difference-splitting there). There was serious violence at the cenotaph, caused by a bunch of right-wing extremists. Out of that half-million, the police are looking for a handful of people who might have had pro-Hamas regalia. Sunak went on to condemn "antisemitic chants," by which I assume he meant "from the river to the sea", which is not an antisemitic chant. It was one of the largest marches ever in this country and it was entirely peaceful, but our scumbag prime minister couldn't resist making a false equivalence in order to apportion blame for the trouble in London yesterday. Both he and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire. Make no bones about it: they are simply giving the nod to Israel to carry on with the killing. Despicable. There they both were this morning at the cenotaph, honouring the dead yet refusing to call for a halt to the killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 12:51 PM

I was about to make the same point. This government has gone beyond despicable and sadly taken the opposition down to their level

Ah well. Just think how much worse things would have been with Corbyn in charge... :-S

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 01:07 PM

"Both he (the Prime Minister) and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire"

Meanwhile, in other news in Wales: The (Labour led) Senedd has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and Israel.
The motion tabled in the Welsh parliament by Plaid Cymru urged for an end to "the appalling attacks on innocent civilians".
Welsh government ministers abstained from the vote - but Labour backbenchers were given a free vote on the motion and on an amendment tabled by the Conservatives.

From: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 02:12 PM

Thanks for that, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 03:37 PM

Nice to know that the land of my Fathers (Well, Mother's Mother) hasn't succumbed to the downward slide!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 05:10 PM

I see that Cruella has praised the police for "their professionalism in the face of violence and aggression from protesters and counter-protesters".

She really is a piece of work isn't she. There are no words strong enough to describe the disdain I have for the shower of shits that are supposed to be running the country. How anyone can continue to support them is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 07:29 PM

It's the fake equivalence between 'protesters and counter-protesters" that gets me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 02:44 AM

Exactly. And now praising the police because she realised that slagging them off was a bad career move.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 04:16 AM

Ding dong the witch is dead... :-)

Mind you, we cannot celebrate yet as we don't yet know who will replace her. Cameron, the man who screwed up over Brexit, has been seen entering number 10!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 04:18 AM

Source BBC news BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 04:43 AM

The inappropriately-named James Cleverly also seen darkening the doorstep of No. 10 this morning. More barrel-bottom scraping, methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 06:31 AM

Cameron, a man who should never have been allowed anywhere near Downing Street ever again, fer chrissake...

Put him in that big barge all on his own and float the bloody thing off to Rwanda. Anyone got a spare ball and chain?

Anyone contemplating that he could well be the next Tory leader? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 06:44 AM

Cameron is back in Government. It bodes ill for conservatives in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 07:03 AM

How would you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 09:30 AM

Cameron's post is minor but it reflects poorly to his opponents.
Perhaps your conservatives are smarter than ours but I doubt it.
What you call the wrong side of the Atlantic, over here the conservatives went too far and have splintered their base.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 09:45 AM

Conservative with a big C is different to conservative with a little c Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:01 AM

I reckon ah jus reflects the opinion of MSNBC. Jus sayin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:08 AM

Over here we have a big D and a little d.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:20 AM

Cameron's post is minor

The Foreign Secretary is a senior position in the UK government. Along with the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Home Secretary, it is one of the four Great Offices of State.
DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:35 AM

Thanks, I thought the Prime Minister was the only 'big boss'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 11:10 AM

Our Prime Minister is not the same as your President.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 11:27 AM

This has been brewing for nearly a week: it seems it was the "tents" issue that pushed Rishi over the top, not Cruella being, erm, economical with the diplomacy about the marches (which just added the cherry). I await the front-page picture on this week's New European with interest, but it should feature Cruella's head poking out of a tent on the doorstep of Number Ten.

For the record, at the time of typoing:

* Cruella -> back benches
* Cleverley -> Home Office
* the boy Cameron -> Foreign Office
* Theresa Coffey (sp?) -> back benches*
..... and more to follow.

* Despite paying her respects to Larry the Cat on the way in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 07:02 PM

We have what is now called an Imperial President.
"Beware the demon pomposity".
Bob Woodward.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 23 - 08:22 AM

We are allowed just one UK political thread. Keep your politics out of it, please.

I hate Cameron. Hubris led to brexit, a terrible misjudgement. The architect of austerity ("we're all in it together"). Very dodgy lobbying. NHS starting to implode on his watch. Hardly any growth. Explosion of zero-hours contracts. Shat on the public sector via pay freeze after pay freeze. He did one excellent thing: he completely nobbled that shabby bunch of naive opportunists, the Lib Dems.

However, he's a big hitter. He scrubs up well. He's not far right. From a Tory point of view, this isn't at all a bad move. Stodgy Starmer beware. And, after her showing on the Today programme this morning, for God's sake keep Rachel Reeves out of the spotlight. Could do worse than shutting Yvette up while he's at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 23 - 09:09 AM

It's Thérèse f'Coffey, Filk.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 09:41 AM

I poste dthis yesterday but it seems to have been lost in the latest cat litter cleanup. Apologies if it does appear twice

Cruella is now telling Fishy that his policies are not working

Funny. I'm sure she supported them until she was binned. Why on earth would she support something that she knew was not working? Not a career move surely ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 09:52 AM

I watched the whole of the Supreme Court ruling this morning. What struck me was the fact that Rwanda's blatant failings to abide by previous agreed understandings on how asylum seekers should be treated, particularly with Israel, as well as a mass of solid evidence on this from the UN refugee agency, seem to have been ignored by this government. They were pursuing a doomed policy that has already cost taxpayers many millions of pounds. I feel like suing them to get my bloody money back.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 10:14 AM

Herself's comment this morning: "That's typical of the Tories: no Plan B."

My response: "Plan B is Plan A, shouted louder."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 01:00 PM

I have posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating:

So the new brilliant scheme is to get Parliament to say Rwanda is safe. Not to address the Supreme Court's judgement it is not, nor to ensure it is, nor to press Rwanda to be safer, but simply to call it so.

Very Humpty Dumpty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 03:32 PM

I can also say we are allowed just one US political thread so keep your politics out of it please but I agree with free speech with all its curses and benefits. Let's keep your personal animosities out of it.
Comparing US reports to UK reports is sometimes different.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 05:04 PM

Passing a law stating that Rwanda is safe forcibly reminds me of the Indiana Pi Bill. I commend the Wikipedia page to you, but can't resist:

.... the Speaker accepted another member's recommendation to refer the bill to the Committee on Swamplands, where the bill could "find a deserved grave"

Happily, a real mathematician was in the building on other business, he educated members of the Indiana Senate, the bill was duly blocked, and the newspapers in other States ceased heaping ridicule on the Indiana State Legislature. Sadly, in our case, the grownups seem to have deserted the House of Commons.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 05:48 PM

Sunak is entering a minefield. His daft tough talk today reeks of his need to react sharply to the idiot Braverman, which he doesn't need to do. He ignored a mass of evidence from Israel and UNHCR that Rwanda does not comply with agreements as to how asylum seekers should be treated, and it's clear that "safe country" does not apply to Rwanda.

That's one thing. But Starmer. As an opposition leader, as the leader of a party that's supposed to put ordinary people first, in contrast to self-serving Tories, why can't he call for a ceasefire? It's just a call. It's not a demand. It won't happen just because he calls for it. It would be a symbolic call only. It would, though, put clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. Instead, he clings to Sunak's coat tails. He runs scared of Biden should he beat Sunak in the election. He is not a leader. He's a follower. And his stance on the conflict is splitting the party. As any fule no, split parties always lose elections. So the next election is going to come down to who's more split, Labour or Tories. Sir K, it really doesn't need to be that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 05:52 PM

"I can also say we are allowed just one US political thread so keep your politics out of it please but I agree with free speech with all its curses and benefits. Let's keep your personal animosities out of it.
Comparing US reports to UK reports is sometimes different."

But the trouble is that you wade in but have absolutely no desire to discuss our politics. The simple reason for that is that you have not studied our politics and your posts show no understanding of it. By all means join in. By which I mean, join in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 06:40 PM

Some Labour spokespeople I've heard today:

Pat McFadden
Yvette Cooper
Keir Starmer
Peter Kyle
Rachel Reeves
David Lammy
Barry Gardiner
(and others)

All calling for no ceasefire. In other words, carry on the slaughter but do listen to our very mild cautions.

All members of Labour Friends Of Israel.

Then Jess Phillips. Feminist, anti-Corbynite. She left the front bench today in protest against the anti-ceasefire stance.

She's also a member of Labour Friends of Israel. My opinion of her has soared. A real humanitarian. Kudos, Jess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 23 - 04:14 AM

BBC Four recently transmitted a programme made in 1998 called The Fifty Years War: Israel and the Arabs. It is well worth watching for the background to these events.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 23 - 06:51 PM

Gosh, didn't think that last post of mine had taken. I meant to add this comment from Jess's letter, with which I couldn't agree more.

"I can see no route where the current military action does anything but put at risk the hope of peace and security for anyone in the region now and in the future."

Absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Nov 23 - 08:16 AM

Thank you Steve, I do have far more questions than opinion.
I am monitoring British history from the Tudors to the Stuarts and as always listen to BBC. American history is a cinch compared to a thousand years of British history.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 19 Nov 23 - 09:00 AM

UK's Online Safety Bill has become the Online Safety Act, complete with the section which states that the Forces of Law and Order shall be able to intercept any and all communications (the CSAM measure). The language carefully states that end-to-end encryption is not banned, but that intercepts shall be permitted once the technology exists to permit it. Since it's mathematically impossible for said technology to work as advertised, the Act has deemed (again) that black is white by legislative fiat.

More at the The Shapeshifting Crypto Wars at the Lawfare site. Once I find the earlier article I've been paraphrasing, I'll post a link to that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Nov 23 - 10:49 PM

As aforethreatened, analysis of clause 122 of the Online Safety Act:

UK admits 'spy clause' can't be used for scanning encrypted chat – it's not 'feasible'


UK Online Safety Bill to become law – and encryption busting clause is still there

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Captain Swing
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 03:44 PM

I remember going on two school visits aged 15 in 5th yr (Y11 in today's money). One was to the Lincolnshire Show and the other was to see a production of Hamlet. We managed to get served with pints of brown ale on both occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 02:24 AM

So how do we translate that to UK politics? The far right groups we had here never had serious high poll ratings but they frightened the mainstream parties enough to move them further right than they have been in my voting lifetime. We now have a Labour Party that are vaguely pink, Liberals that align themselves with Tories and Tories that want to implement NF policies. How can we hope to recentre things?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 07:40 AM

100!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 04:10 AM

This one tickles me. Just shows how out of touch they are with the North

Tories promise Manchester a tram extension that already exists!

My son #1, daughter in law #2 and grandson #2 were there protesting on Sunday. Proud of them all! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 10:48 AM

You're not leaving Labour Steve. I am not sure what it is but it sure ain't the party we joined!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 05:08 PM

In Sir Keith's own words, Steve. Talking about the by-election

"I know there are people who probably voted Tory in the past who vote for a changed Labour Party this time because they despair at the state of their own party"

Code for the Labour Party has become the Party that pissed off tories vote for :-( You are better off out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 12:35 PM

If you are raiaing the legal age to buy cigarettes one year per year then in say 15 years you will need to be challenging people to prove they are 30 and not 29.

I don't see how you are going to do that without some form of national ID system.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 23 - 02:13 PM

The is a ry irritating form of punditry about. The first sentence warns you cannot read too much into a single by election result. Then every following sentence makes exactly that assumption.

What I would say is the result is morale-boosting for Labour and morale-sapping for the SNP. I don't think I would go much further.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 23 - 01:23 PM

Something a bit intriguing happening. I can post messages to mudcat from my phone, but not from my PC. Obviously something antiviral is blocking me...

Ehat I was going to say is the Labour Policy document makes interesting reading as far as setting the direction is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 11:08 AM

Starmer's letter to the councillors who have or are thinking of resigning over this

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 09:26 AM

Steve: If you're 14 today you'll never legally be able to buy fags. Spot the hidden caveat in that sentence.
I'm guessing the 'caveat' you mean is that word 'legally'.

I'd rather spot the inaccuracy. If you're 14 now, but haven't yet had a birthday this year you were born before 1 Jan 2009, so can continue to buy cigarettes (once you're 18). The new law doesn't catch you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 06:42 AM

Populism is alive and well at the Tory conference, judging by Coutinho’s and Harper’s speeches - in particular, lots of Labour-slagging and Harper declaring the Conservative Party to be ‘The pro-car Party’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 07:45 AM

Bugger! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 23 - 06:37 AM

HS2 - I wonder what the government are using it to distract us from? The vast majority of UK citizens will never travel on it and won’t be affected by it no matter where it runs to.
Birmingham? Manchester? Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn (and I’d stake my pension that most UK residents don’t either)!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 02:27 PM

Mrs. Backwoodsperson and I had exactly that conversation, and we both wondered if it’s the first step towards ID Cards?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 23 - 11:03 AM

Well still no planes full of refugees to Rwanda and still no asylum seekers on the barge. So Cruella goes to the US, gives a speech to a right-wing think-tank in which she disses the 70-year-old UN refugee convention and does a nice bit of dog-whistling to her disreputable fellow-travellers about women and gay people seeking refuge too lightly. Cruella for PM! (which is clearly what she's after).

Now Fishi Rishi has sanctioned drilling for oil in Rosebank, the biggest undeveloped oilfield in the North Sea - and stodgy Starmer has said he won't revoke the licence when he gets in. A disastrous Sunak decision, coming on top of his rowing back of other environmental policies last week, and one which Starmer could have stopped in its tracks. In the words of Corporal Fraser, we're all doomed...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 09:36 AM

Labour can't "regain power." The Tories will lose power and Labour will carry on with all the current Tory policies. Labour's motto seems to be "drop a pledge a week." Starmer is what we used to call the despicable LibDems, i.e., Tory-lite. In his case, very lite-weight, no courage, no charisma, no vision, no principles.

Saw a great slogan last night, can't remember where now, might have been in the comments section below the Spurs-Liverpool match (aka fiasco) report. It said (and pardon my French) "Fuck VAR and the Tories."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 09:04 AM

If you're 14 today you'll never legally be able to buy fags. Spot the hidden caveat in that sentence. And the Tories have overseen a cynical industry grooming kids to go vape-crazy. Never mind. All that saved HS2 money ("every penny of it") will be used to improve little bits of railways all over the place instead. Yeah, right, along with those 40 new hospitals.

If HS2 had gone ahead, Labour would have carried on with it. Now that it's gone, Labour won't carry on with it. Be prepared for a massive Tory defeat, then nothing changes, then Cruella for PM in five years' time. Weeee!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 10:25 AM

That indeed was it, Nigel. Underage kids have never had real issues getting their hands on fags or booze. I did both with gay abandon in my misspent yoof. I bought my first pint in a pub at 16 and I was wearing my full school uniform! It cost me 1s 11d by the way. In those days you could get 20 Players No 10 for half a crown. We'd buy a Watney's Party Four, take it down the park and bust the can open with a screwdriver. It was bloody 'orrible, flat as a witch's t*t.   Pour it straight down the lav and cut out the middle man...

The Tory cigarette thing and the ban-phones-in-schools thing are "good things" but they are deliberate petty sideshows. Typical Tory conference bullshit. I'm sure we'll see the same next week.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 23 - 06:16 PM

This SNP/Labour thang. Good win, very impressive, etc. But...

Is this a classic case of incumbents losing and challengers indulging in hubris?

Tories: imploded for years, laughing stock, etc: lose their deposit.

SNP: scandal over MP that had held the seat, broke covid law big-time, etc. Finance scandal over Nicola Sturgeon. No progress regarding independence push. Low turnout. Etc.

Pundits are saying that this means Labour could get 40 Scottish seats. My arse. Not a chance. This was a by-election, a low-turnout protest vote. Blew the doors off, eh? More like found the wrong car key and had to go back in the house to look for the right one.

Never a truer word was spoken: governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them. There's a lot of work to do. I'm still a Labour Party member, by the way. And there's a whole bunch of antisemitism inconvenience coming up that will hardly make the party top-dogs look good...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 23 - 02:23 PM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 23 - 08:12 PM

We have a prime minister and a leader of the opposition who are both one hundred percent blinkered about the Israel/Hamas conflict. I have heard barely a single word of sympathy for the wretched and desperate people of Gaza from either of them. It's all the fault of Hamas, Israel has the right to defend itself, blah blah. It's not Hamas that has cut off water, food and fuel to the outdoor prison which is Gaza. It's not Hamas that has bombed hospitals and schools. It's not Hamas that has killed many hundreds of children and it's not Hamas that has created a million refugees. You don't need to do any of those things to unarmed civilians in order to "defend yourself." Sunak and Starmer are in the pockets of the pro-Israel lobby and they are frightened to death of saying anything that sounds even remotely like a glimmer of criticism of the Israeli regime. Starmer wouldn't even say that it's OK to sport a Palestinian flag in the street, a straight lift from the Suella Braverman near-fascist creed. That was in Starmer's interview with Nick Ferrari on LBC and I could hardly believe the pusillanimous self-deception I was hearing from the bloke who's probably going to be the next PM. Pathetic and totally unfair.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 08:50 AM

Starmer's pusillanimous and unconditional support for Israel and his apparent lack of sympathy or at least his silence, for the plight of millions in Gaza is too much for me. The failure of western leaders to condemn and sanction the Israeli regime will give Netanyahu succour and they will be complicit in the future slaughter of civilians in Gaza. It's the last straw and I'm leaving the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 12:00 PM

I didn't manage to read all that as it wouldn't format for me, but I got the drift. Again, the platitudes flow freely but there is no condemnation of the horrors inflicted by Israel, just that by Hamas. Inexcusable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 05:19 PM

He wouldn't let his ministers stand on health workers' picket lines, he told them that they mustn't join pro-Palestine demonstrations, he refused to back the nurses' and junior doctors' fight for fair pay. Now he refuses to criticise even the most egregious of Israel's outrages and he says they have every right to deny food and water to two million civilians, a war crime. That's not Labour and it's definitely not me. I've held my nose over several other of his swerves to the right, but I've had enough now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Oct 23 - 10:10 AM

i was a corbyn supporter but it was horrible canvassing for him in the last election in workington. i voted for starmer as leader - same policies (up the '19 manifesto!) plus electability. i've left the party (again - 3rd time. or maybe 4th) i;m now reduced to longing to see tory tears on election night and a hope for some decent policies. looks like we won't have a strong snp government as an inspiration either .all depressing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Oct 23 - 07:25 AM

DtG the problem has been that for the last 13 years there has been a movement of the centre ground of politics increasingly to the right. We would all love to have radical socialist policies in place, but what was eft of centre 13 years ago are far left to where the political centre is now.

Labour cannot regain power until it has reclaimed the centre-ground, and then, and only then, it can start to move the pendulum back towards the left.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 30 Sep 23 - 08:30 AM

Short quote from this week's New European, from Tanit Koch's "Germanspaining" column:

With the far-right AfD polling well above 20%, the public discourse has changed drastically. So former Bundenpräsident Joachim Gauck took the lead. He doesn't want to leave it to the extremists, who never solve problems because they live off them.

.... I've never heard the problem with extremists stated so concisely before.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 23 - 03:57 PM

I see that Bozzer has joined GB news

Need I say more?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 04:39 PM

Yes, DMcG. It seems most arrests were of right wing anti-protesters!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 12:51 PM

I was about to make the same point. This government has gone beyond despicable and sadly taken the opposition down to their level

Ah well. Just think how much worse things would have been with Corbyn in charge... :-S

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 03:37 PM

Nice to know that the land of my Fathers (Well, Mother's Mother) hasn't succumbed to the downward slide!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 05:10 PM

I see that Cruella has praised the police for "their professionalism in the face of violence and aggression from protesters and counter-protesters".

She really is a piece of work isn't she. There are no words strong enough to describe the disdain I have for the shower of shits that are supposed to be running the country. How anyone can continue to support them is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 02:44 AM

Exactly. And now praising the police because she realised that slagging them off was a bad career move.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 04:16 AM

Ding dong the witch is dead... :-)

Mind you, we cannot celebrate yet as we don't yet know who will replace her. Cameron, the man who screwed up over Brexit, has been seen entering number 10!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 04:18 AM

Source BBC news BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 09:45 AM

Conservative with a big C is different to conservative with a little c Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 09:41 AM

I poste dthis yesterday but it seems to have been lost in the latest cat litter cleanup. Apologies if it does appear twice

Cruella is now telling Fishy that his policies are not working

Funny. I'm sure she supported them until she was binned. Why on earth would she support something that she knew was not working? Not a career move surely ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 03:06 PM

Steve: Back to your lane.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 06:44 AM

Cameron is back in Government. It bodes ill for conservatives in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 09:30 AM

Cameron's post is minor but it reflects poorly to his opponents.
Perhaps your conservatives are smarter than ours but I doubt it.
What you call the wrong side of the Atlantic, over here the conservatives went too far and have splintered their base.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:01 AM

I reckon ah jus reflects the opinion of MSNBC. Jus sayin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:08 AM

Over here we have a big D and a little d.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:35 AM

Thanks, I thought the Prime Minister was the only 'big boss'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 07:02 PM

We have what is now called an Imperial President.
"Beware the demon pomposity".
Bob Woodward.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 03:32 PM

I can also say we are allowed just one US political thread so keep your politics out of it please but I agree with free speech with all its curses and benefits. Let's keep your personal animosities out of it.
Comparing US reports to UK reports is sometimes different.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Nov 23 - 08:16 AM

Thank you Steve, I do have far more questions than opinion.
I am monitoring British history from the Tudors to the Stuarts and as always listen to BBC. American history is a cinch compared to a thousand years of British history.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 11:46 AM

DIves and Lazarus
“Thou are none of mine, brother Lazarus,
Lying begging at my door,
No meat, no drink, will I give thee,
Nor bestow upon the poor.”


Some things don't change much.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 12:48 PM


I have no idea who Mark Park is, but if this is accurate it suggests that, despite all the claims Labour is tearing itself apart over the IreIsrael-Palestine, it has little or no effect on their lead. These surveys seem to have taken place before Cummings and co were questioned by the covid enquiry.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 12:50 PM

Damn! Forgot to close the link, and it seems to bring up adverts anyway. Try searching for the latest opinion polls and Mark Park had a table of about 8 of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 11:54 AM

It is looking like the pro-Palestine march in London has been very peaceful, despite the efforts of some anti-march protestors.

Now the remaining risk is what happens as people try to leave the march and head home.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 01:00 PM

I have posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating:

So the new brilliant scheme is to get Parliament to say Rwanda is safe. Not to address the Supreme Court's judgement it is not, nor to ensure it is, nor to press Rwanda to be safer, but simply to call it so.

Very Humpty Dumpty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 23 - 04:14 AM

BBC Four recently transmitted a programme made in 1998 called The Fifty Years War: Israel and the Arabs. It is well worth watching for the background to these events.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:20 AM

Cameron's post is minor

The Foreign Secretary is a senior position in the UK government. Along with the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Home Secretary, it is one of the four Great Offices of State.
DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:30 PM

"The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie,"

The title alone would suggest that it is 'leftie', although possibly not sufficiently so for those with more extreme views.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 08:25 AM

I'm sure that if I read 'Labour List' I would find it leftie even if not extremely so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 01:07 PM

"Both he (the Prime Minister) and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire"

Meanwhile, in other news in Wales: The (Labour led) Senedd has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and Israel.
The motion tabled in the Welsh parliament by Plaid Cymru urged for an end to "the appalling attacks on innocent civilians".
Welsh government ministers abstained from the vote - but Labour backbenchers were given a free vote on the motion and on an amendment tabled by the Conservatives.

From: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 11:10 AM

Our Prime Minister is not the same as your President.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 06:10 AM

An excellent poem from Paul Cookson, on FB today. Says it all…

”Daily poem - Suella Braverman, once again the inspiration ... unfortunately

LIFESTYLE CHOICE

I could have escaped to the country
I could have lived by the sea
I could have chosen anywhere
But this is the place for me
Handy for all amenities
In that I can rejoice
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

Yes to the freezing nights
Yes to the driving rain
And if I had to choose once more
I’d choose the same again
Yes to constant hunger
Cold and always moist
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

I love my cardboard notice
Asking for your charity
I love the fact I can rely
On other people’s sympathy
These things you don’t understand
While stuck in your Rolls Royce
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

This is not a style of life
That I would recommend
To my worst enemy
Never mind a friend
But you hear what you want to hear
You cannot hear my voice
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

Your ignorance – deliberate
Like the heartless views you voiced
Indicative of where you are
And your lifestyle choice

Poem 1195
Sunday 5th November 2023”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 04:43 AM

The inappropriately-named James Cleverly also seen darkening the doorstep of No. 10 this morning. More barrel-bottom scraping, methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 23 - 06:51 AM

A below-the-line comment about Starmer in the Guardian:

"If you say Israel 'has the right' to withhold power and water from Gaza then, a few days later, following a consequent outcry, say ‘it is not and never has been my view that Israel had the right to cut off water, food, fuel or medicines,’ you are revealing three things about yourself.

You have appalling judgement, you are dishonest and you are a reactive, rather than a proactive, leader."

I couldn't agree more. Starmer is the wrong leader for Labour and he'd be the wrong leader for this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 23 - 10:49 AM

The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie, is exceptionally critical of Starmer's stance on Gaza-Israel. I suppose the conflict could have receded into the background by the next election, but, if it hasn't, and he maintains his one-sided stance on the issue, he could lose an awful lot of Muslim votes, many of them up in northern towns which he has to win or win back. He's also at odds with the SNP and large numbers of Labour MPs as well as the mayors of London and Manchester. I note that Starmer is a member of Labour Friends of Israel, along with people such as Yvette Cooper, the disreputable Margaret Hodge, David Lammy, Wes Streeting and Emily Thornberry. And that 76% of the electorate want a ceasefire. I know it's not just about votes, but can we have at least just a bit of principle and humanity from a party that likes to think it's socialist?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM

The lame-duck excuse I keep hearing from people like Starmer (and lots of Israeli big-shots and western leaders) is that we shouldn't have a ceasefire because we know that bastards like Hamas wouldn't stick to it anyway. Well blow me down. No giving peace a chance round 'ere, then...

The reason Starmer and Sunak won't call for a ceasefire has nothing to do with that. They are both in the pockets of the US, and the reason the US won't call for a ceasefire is that it's in the pocket of Israel and the pro-Israel lobby.

Call a ceasefire. Release all the hostages. Call off the collective punishment. Release the 5000 Palestinians who are in jail in Israel, a thousand or more held without charge, women, children, the lot. Then sit down and talk about it. If Paisley and McGuinness could do it, anyone can do it. I'm bloody sick of seeing the same outrages on me telly every night.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 03:30 PM

Starmer is wriggling. He's trying to shut up the critics in his party by "criticising" Israel, a little bit. But still no ceasefire call. No principles on show here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 23 - 07:03 PM

"David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary who visited the region last week, said that the “number of dead Palestinian civilians and children is shocking” as he called on Israel to take further steps to stop a “humanitarian catastrophe”. He said that Israel “must uphold international law” and also warned of violence in the West Bank."

Talk about soft words. Why couldn't he say that Israel has been breaching international law for four weeks. Yes it's shocking. Yeah, David, how did we ever know that before you told us. Thanks for telling us what we already know in spades, David. Yes Israel should uphold international law. Thing is, Israel never does. But Lammy, a member of Labour Friends of Israel (aka a man in the pocket of the pro-Israel lobby) can't criticise Israel. His party leader will make sure of that. In a word, bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 06:34 AM

The only reason I will (extremely reluctantly) hope for at least two Labour terms after the next election is that Braverman is not unlikely to be the next Tory leader. The woman is the nearest thing to being a true fascist we have in Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:49 PM

Try having a read of it, Nige.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 23 - 05:28 AM

Sorry, Nigel - I don't know where the 'ell that 'l' went...:-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 09:32 AM

Well read it and see. I'd put it at dead-centre Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 06:11 PM

From a Guardian letter responding to suggestions that the marches on Armistice weekend should be called off, or even banned:

...I shall be marching for a small boy, surrounded by siblings, standing in the ruins of his neighbourhood whose cry, “We’ve done nothing wrong”, has so much more power and honesty than UK politicians who seek to divide us with their claims that the marches are “hate-filled” or “disrespectful”.

I'm not big on hate, but I could so easily come to hate these sanctimonious, mealy-mouthed hypocrites who appear on our screens to criticise the marches straight after we've just watched the nightly routine of the horrors being visited on the civilians of Gaza who have done nothing wrong. The people who we commemorate on Armistice day died so that those of us who come after can enjoy democracy, our human rights and freedom of expression. A plague on the houses of those hypocrites.

And please don't tell me that I'm not criticising Hamas or being fair to Israel. I've done that on every possible occasion in these threads, but my current gaze is on the plight of the benighted civilians of Gaza. That little boy is just one of thousands of children living or dying or being maimed for over a month in conditions that no child should have to endure, and we seem to have decided to be no more than spectators.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 04:27 PM

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 06:48 AM

Sunak last night condemned the “violent, wholly unacceptable” scenes. He said both the far right and “Hamas sympathisers” had been responsible.

Liar. There were no violent scenes on a march of around half a million people (a bit of difference-splitting there). There was serious violence at the cenotaph, caused by a bunch of right-wing extremists. Out of that half-million, the police are looking for a handful of people who might have had pro-Hamas regalia. Sunak went on to condemn "antisemitic chants," by which I assume he meant "from the river to the sea", which is not an antisemitic chant. It was one of the largest marches ever in this country and it was entirely peaceful, but our scumbag prime minister couldn't resist making a false equivalence in order to apportion blame for the trouble in London yesterday. Both he and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire. Make no bones about it: they are simply giving the nod to Israel to carry on with the killing. Despicable. There they both were this morning at the cenotaph, honouring the dead yet refusing to call for a halt to the killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 02:12 PM

Thanks for that, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 07:29 PM

It's the fake equivalence between 'protesters and counter-protesters" that gets me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 06:31 AM

Cameron, a man who should never have been allowed anywhere near Downing Street ever again, fer chrissake...

Put him in that big barge all on his own and float the bloody thing off to Rwanda. Anyone got a spare ball and chain?

Anyone contemplating that he could well be the next Tory leader? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 07:03 AM

How would you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 23 - 08:22 AM

We are allowed just one UK political thread. Keep your politics out of it, please.

I hate Cameron. Hubris led to brexit, a terrible misjudgement. The architect of austerity ("we're all in it together"). Very dodgy lobbying. NHS starting to implode on his watch. Hardly any growth. Explosion of zero-hours contracts. Shat on the public sector via pay freeze after pay freeze. He did one excellent thing: he completely nobbled that shabby bunch of naive opportunists, the Lib Dems.

However, he's a big hitter. He scrubs up well. He's not far right. From a Tory point of view, this isn't at all a bad move. Stodgy Starmer beware. And, after her showing on the Today programme this morning, for God's sake keep Rachel Reeves out of the spotlight. Could do worse than shutting Yvette up while he's at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 23 - 09:09 AM

It's Thérèse f'Coffey, Filk.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 09:52 AM

I watched the whole of the Supreme Court ruling this morning. What struck me was the fact that Rwanda's blatant failings to abide by previous agreed understandings on how asylum seekers should be treated, particularly with Israel, as well as a mass of solid evidence on this from the UN refugee agency, seem to have been ignored by this government. They were pursuing a doomed policy that has already cost taxpayers many millions of pounds. I feel like suing them to get my bloody money back.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 05:48 PM

Sunak is entering a minefield. His daft tough talk today reeks of his need to react sharply to the idiot Braverman, which he doesn't need to do. He ignored a mass of evidence from Israel and UNHCR that Rwanda does not comply with agreements as to how asylum seekers should be treated, and it's clear that "safe country" does not apply to Rwanda.

That's one thing. But Starmer. As an opposition leader, as the leader of a party that's supposed to put ordinary people first, in contrast to self-serving Tories, why can't he call for a ceasefire? It's just a call. It's not a demand. It won't happen just because he calls for it. It would be a symbolic call only. It would, though, put clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. Instead, he clings to Sunak's coat tails. He runs scared of Biden should he beat Sunak in the election. He is not a leader. He's a follower. And his stance on the conflict is splitting the party. As any fule no, split parties always lose elections. So the next election is going to come down to who's more split, Labour or Tories. Sir K, it really doesn't need to be that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 05:52 PM

"I can also say we are allowed just one US political thread so keep your politics out of it please but I agree with free speech with all its curses and benefits. Let's keep your personal animosities out of it.
Comparing US reports to UK reports is sometimes different."

But the trouble is that you wade in but have absolutely no desire to discuss our politics. The simple reason for that is that you have not studied our politics and your posts show no understanding of it. By all means join in. By which I mean, join in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 06:40 PM

Some Labour spokespeople I've heard today:

Pat McFadden
Yvette Cooper
Keir Starmer
Peter Kyle
Rachel Reeves
David Lammy
Barry Gardiner
(and others)

All calling for no ceasefire. In other words, carry on the slaughter but do listen to our very mild cautions.

All members of Labour Friends Of Israel.

Then Jess Phillips. Feminist, anti-Corbynite. She left the front bench today in protest against the anti-ceasefire stance.

She's also a member of Labour Friends of Israel. My opinion of her has soared. A real humanitarian. Kudos, Jess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 23 - 06:51 PM

Gosh, didn't think that last post of mine had taken. I meant to add this comment from Jess's letter, with which I couldn't agree more.

"I can see no route where the current military action does anything but put at risk the hope of peace and security for anyone in the region now and in the future."

Absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 07:58 AM

With the Covid enquiry well on the way, and the admission from political advisors that the government was so ill prepared, the least the pandemic could have done is waited until we had a competent government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:36 AM

Noticed that that piece of toxic proverbial had provided more proof the ALL tories and their supporters are racists, why else would it spout on about homeless people being mostly foreigners. did it personally check all their passports?

What is the betting that the tory **** are too tight fisted to buy homes out of their own pockets to give homeless people a place to live rent free until they get back on their feet, and then pay an affordable rent.

Where are the high streets with the rows and rows of tents? I haven't seen any, or is it referring to camp sites? Maybe it believes that homeless people should report for just be wiped of the face of the earth so that it doesn't have to look at the problem its party and the pathetic excuse for human skin that votes for it have created just because it lowers the value of their properties.

There is no room for neo-n****m in my society, so as far as I am concern, every tory voter should be deported to some tin pot, extreme right dictatorship with appalling human rights where they can live happily amongst their own kind, and we can get back to being a decent, caring welcoming society.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:37 AM

I really should have just said what I really thought, rather than holding back just now

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 25 Oct 23 - 10:49 AM

> The first sentence warns you cannot read too much into a single by
> election result. Then every following sentence makes exactly that
> assumption.

That's straight out of the "I'm not an unreasonable person but" book.* I heard many years ago that the trick is to read up to the "but", and take the inverse of what goes before it as the speaker's POV; the rest of the statement can then optionally be disregarded as too obvious to need to be stated.

* It's a standard rhetorical technique. Fifty bonus points for correctly naming it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Nov 23 - 05:56 AM

For some reason, the original third verse in "All things bright and beautiful" tends to not appear in modern hymnals. It went:

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them, high or lowly,
And ordered their estate

Oh, and for completeness, my father used to leave in the verse ending

The rushes by the river
We gather ev'ry day

.... partly from simple mischief, and partly to see how many of the congregation engaged their brains while singing hymns.

NB: No tents were harmed in the production of this comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 11:27 AM

This has been brewing for nearly a week: it seems it was the "tents" issue that pushed Rishi over the top, not Cruella being, erm, economical with the diplomacy about the marches (which just added the cherry). I await the front-page picture on this week's New European with interest, but it should feature Cruella's head poking out of a tent on the doorstep of Number Ten.

For the record, at the time of typoing:

* Cruella -> back benches
* Cleverley -> Home Office
* the boy Cameron -> Foreign Office
* Theresa Coffey (sp?) -> back benches*
..... and more to follow.

* Despite paying her respects to Larry the Cat on the way in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 10:14 AM

Herself's comment this morning: "That's typical of the Tories: no Plan B."

My response: "Plan B is Plan A, shouted louder."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 05:04 PM

Passing a law stating that Rwanda is safe forcibly reminds me of the Indiana Pi Bill. I commend the Wikipedia page to you, but can't resist:

.... the Speaker accepted another member's recommendation to refer the bill to the Committee on Swamplands, where the bill could "find a deserved grave"

Happily, a real mathematician was in the building on other business, he educated members of the Indiana Senate, the bill was duly blocked, and the newspapers in other States ceased heaping ridicule on the Indiana State Legislature. Sadly, in our case, the grownups seem to have deserted the House of Commons.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 19 Nov 23 - 09:00 AM

UK's Online Safety Bill has become the Online Safety Act, complete with the section which states that the Forces of Law and Order shall be able to intercept any and all communications (the CSAM measure). The language carefully states that end-to-end encryption is not banned, but that intercepts shall be permitted once the technology exists to permit it. Since it's mathematically impossible for said technology to work as advertised, the Act has deemed (again) that black is white by legislative fiat.

More at the The Shapeshifting Crypto Wars at the Lawfare site. Once I find the earlier article I've been paraphrasing, I'll post a link to that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 07:43 AM

Legislation saying that if something currently impossible becomes possible other things that are currently impossible will be legal is rational enough, even if it's a bit nonsensical. Like saying if pigs could fly air traffic control would need to be modified to prevent accidents.

It's not like passing a law saying that from now on throwing people over a cliff is safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 09:12 AM

> Like saying if pigs could fly air traffic control would need
> to be modified to prevent accidents.

It's slightly worse than that. The precise wording of the Bill Act is carefully imprecise, and can be bent to mean that the rules are hereby changed to explicitly ban communication which cannot be intercepted by the Forces of Law and Order *now*, whatever may or may not be possible in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 07:35 PM

Well, if anyone is still in doubt about Starmer's socialist credentials, he's blown them out of the water now by praising Thatcher. From the Sunday Telegraph (!) via the Guardian:

Keir Starmer has praised Margaret Thatcher for effecting “meaningful change” in Britain in an article directly appealing to Conservative voters to switch to Labour.

Writing in the Sunday Telegraph, the Labour leader said Thatcher had “set loose our natural entrepreneurialism” during her time as prime minister.

I can scarcely bring myself to say more. Except that I've been bloody telling you about him, haven't I?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 03:46 AM

He said a lot more than that, didn’t he?

Here’s a link to the whole Guardian piece, And another to the Telegraph article, so people can read the whole thing and form their own impressions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 04:42 AM

You can't read the Telegraph piece unless you subscribe (I'd sooner hack off the family jewels with a rusty machete, frankly), and the Guardian piece says what I quoted and very little more. In other words, your "links" are next to useless except to dyed-in-the-wool Torygraph aficionados. Instead, I recommend a listen to Paddy O'Connell giving Starmer a rather uncomfortable grilling on Broadcasting House on Radio 4 this morning. I'm trusting the capable readers of this thread to find that for themselves. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 11:43 AM

”You can't read the Telegraph piece unless you subscribe”

Nonsense. I don’t subscribe and I read it.

As I’ve told you several times now, rather than rely on your frequently edited C&Ps, I prefer to read the source material and form my own opinions. I can only guess at the true reason for your obstinacy in refusing to give links to your sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 12:10 PM

Keep guessing. Perhaps you have a conspiracy theory about me. I almost feel honoured. Well you must have magic powers because I couldn't get past the second line of that piece.

Anyway, do you have an opinion of Starmer's praising of Thatcher or would you rather discuss further why I don't do links as good as your last two? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 12:22 PM

It's definitely not nonsense. The Bellylaugh's Starmer interview is for subscribers only.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 02:42 PM

I followed the link and was able to read the Telegraph piece. Just had to keep scrolling down.

I am not a subscriber to The Telegraph.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 04:11 PM

That's what they all say... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 06:46 PM

For the benefit of those who claim an inability to read the Telegraph (probably just Steve) here's the full quote:

From the Telegraph 02/12/2023

"Sir Keir Starmer heaped praise on Margaret Thatcher for effecting “meaningful change” in Britain as he launched an explicit appeal to Conservative voters to switch to Labour.

In his most audacious bid yet to woo centre-Right support, reminiscent of the New Labour years, the Labour leader accused the Tories of a “betrayal” of their promises to control migration.

In a shift from his staunch opposition to Britain’s departure from the EU before becoming leader, Sir Keir added that the Conservatives have “failed to realise the possibilities of Brexit”.

Writing for The Telegraph, he praised Thatcher for “setting loose our natural entrepreneurialism” and warned that public was again fed up with politicians “hectoring”.

His intervention is likely to fuel Tory MPs’ concerns about disillusionment among many 2019 Conservative voters with the Government’s approach to key areas such as immigration, inflation and crime.

It comes as Rishi Sunak prepares to decide how radical an approach to take with a new law to secure deportation flights to Rwanda before the next election.

A plan – a radical version of which would allow ministers to ignore the European Convention on Human Rights with regard to asylum – could be finalised within 24 hours and put to the Cabinet as soon as Tuesday."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 07:05 PM

"Probably just Steve" my arse, Nigel! I should think that probably four, maybe five people (I'm not counting) here have discussed this, and two of us, Geoff and I, have both said, quite correctly, that you can't read that article unless you subscribe. I'm not at all surprised that, in your case, you're pleased that Starmer aligned himself with the woman who wrecked this country's industry (especially in Wales, Nigel!) and who engendered the culture of the spiv.

Anyway, cheers for subjecting me to the Torygraph piece. I mentioned the Broadcasting House interview earlier. Did you listen? He got far more of a drubbing from Paddy O'Connell than he got from the Telegraph, which latter must have thought that it was their birthday when he spouted his Thatcher nonsense. Do have a listen and report back if you dare.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 07:51 PM



I never claimed to be glad of the alignment. That's just in your narrow mind.
I don't believe that Thatcher "wrecked this country's industry" but she did restrict the power of the unions to stop industry from moving forwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 08:25 PM

That last sentence brands you as an archetypal Tory, Nigel. Good for you!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 02:30 AM

”two of us, Geoff and I, have both said, quite correctly, that you can't read that article unless you subscribe.”

Then you did something wrong. I repeat - I am not a subscriber, I seldom read anything the Torygraph has to say and I certainly wouldn't pay to read it, but I Googled it, found the piece, read the whole thing, and created and posted the link.

A bit of IT-literacy is always helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 04:02 AM

Have you actually got anything at all to say about Starmer's praise for Thatcher?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 04:08 AM

I think John McTernen's article in the Guardian today makes some excellent points. Here is an extract

It happened because Starmer is listening to focus groups of swing voters. But the brutal truth is that there are no swing voters left – when support for the Tory party has fallen to 25%, there is no longer a pond to fish in. You’re convening groups of voters who are undecided whether to vote Tory, stay at home or opt for Nigel Farage and the Reform party. Sure they have views on what would make them listen to Labour – but they will never switch.

The priority for Starmer is to talk to the 45% of the voters he has won over and to reassure them that he is the change they want to see in the world of British politics.
...

That’s why Starmer shouldn’t give the Tories any quarter. A simple two-line manifesto is all he needs: “Get them out. We will fix it.”

“No complacency” is a crucial position for any political party. But the most dangerous complacency of all is to take your own voters for granted. None of the voters who are currently supporting Labour are wavering because they are worried that Starmer is insufficiently respectful of Margaret Thatcher. They want the Tories out. Labour needs to make that its rallying cry.

I am very much of the opinion that Starmer has worked very well and hard to turn round the massive gap from the 2019 election, though greatly helped by the incompetence of the government that won.

But there comes a point where he needs to be speaking to the people most likely to vote for him, not just the people in the middle. It is a glib over-simplification to say Corbyn mainly spoke to those who would vote for him anyway. Starmer hasn't made that mistake. But he is at risk of not talking to them at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 05:13 AM

The access to the Telegraph article is very client dependent. On my tablet, using Chrome, I could read it. On my desktop, using Firefox and clicking the link provided, I could read it. On my desktop using Chrome, it was blocked. On my desktop using Edge, it was blocked. It also seems to depend on whether you accept or reject cookies but I couldn't be bothered testing all the combinations.

Once you understand that not all browsers and devices act in the same way you can understand that people who can read it and people who cannot read it are not doing anything different, but their equipment is. There is no right or wrong here.

What was it you said, John? "A bit of IT-literacy is always helpful". As someone who worked in high-end IT design, support and testing I thing the phrase "A bit of IT-literacy is dangerous" would be more suitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 05:21 AM

BTW - I think Steve uses an iPad (Correct me if I'm wrong). Probably with the default Safari browser. They are a law unto themselves

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 05:35 AM

Very off topic, but on the IT-literacy angle. I wrote a website for a group of shanty singers I am with, which launched around three weeks ago. One of the things it can do is email a setlist to everyone taking part in gigs.

Roughly half of the recipient's systems put it in the spam folder. The other half are quite happy. I have sent it to a spam-assessment site and it is 100% clean/not spam in its opinion. My ISP asserts all the Internet configuration is correct.

It gets to me fine, which is a shame because otherwise I could investigate. I don;t have access to their machines to try to find out why they think it is spam.

Moral and relevance of the tale: IT systems are tricksy and just because things work for you does not mean it works for anyone else.

Oh, and for me, the articles being discussed are behind a paywall.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 06:04 AM

The comments that Starmer made in praise of the blue-rinse 80s country-wrecking harridan in that awful newspaper have been all over the media in any case this weekend. Thatcher single-mindedly tried to destroy the trade unions and Starmer is single-mindedly trying to destroy the left. Similar sentiments in play, so no wonder he's in love with her ghost. As we've seen from the actions of rail workers, nurses, junior doctors, hospital consultants and teachers, she failed to kill the unions, and he's going to find the left coming back to bite him.

I'm iPad only these days, Dave. As for me and links, there's a mottled history on this forum of frivolous, time-wasting links, links to stuff 45 minutes long, links to irrelevant YouTube songs that are supposed to make some political point or other, links that don't work, links that take you to a paywall, links that only people in the linker's country can see and, worst of all, posts containing links that are unsupported by any comments from the poster. Those last ones I consider to be lazy and bad-mannered and I never look at them. If I see something interesting I'll tell you where I saw it and post a relevant clip/comment on it. If you can't handle that I feel sorry for you, and criticising me for such a tiny peccadillo whilst simultaneously having nothing to say about the topic in hand is, frankly, childish.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 06:33 AM

DMcG quoting from the John McTernen article in The Guardian.

"That’s why Starmer shouldn’t give the Tories any quarter. A simple two-line manifesto is all he needs: “Get them out. We will fix it.”"

That made me smile. "Get them out and We will try to fix it.", might be more honest.

Meanwhile here in Kent we have one Labour MP. She won in Canterbury in 2017. The constituency had been represented by a Conservative since its creation in 1918.

From KentOnline


"Last week she was said to be under investigation and not among the Labour Party’s list of approved candidates despite being selected by the local party group, according to reports.

KentOnline has tried speaking to her about the investigations but the MP has not responded to our requests for comment.

Meanwhile, the Labour Party itself also refused to comment when approached by KentOnline regarding Ms Duffield’s selection."

I know she is not everyone's cup of tea, still it does seem a little strange.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 06:41 AM

”BTW - I think Steve uses an iPad (Correct me if I'm wrong). Probably with the default Safari browser. They are a law unto themselves”

That’s exactly what I use, Dave - a 2017 iPad (which I originally bought because the software for my DJI Drone wouldn’t run on my 2012-vintage iPad!) and the standard Safari browser. I find it at least as easy to use for interweb-surfing as my year-old Dell Laptop (Win 11 and either MS Edge or Firefox) and far more convenient.

Your previous post was very interesting, and I hadn’t actually considered the different behaviours between the various browsers. Thanks for the info.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 07:46 AM

You're welcome, John. See DMcG's comment as well.

The number of new systems I have stopped or delayed the roll out on because they cannot be used in a number of circumatances is very high indeed. Occasionaly we would have to use the old phrase 'not supported' (doesn't mean it will not work!) on this browser or that kit. The old 80/20 rule ofthen applies. If it works 80% of the time with 20% of the effort, why spend another 80% effort to get it working on the other 20% !?!

I am long retired now but still have multiple browsers on Android, Windows and Linux devices to check out if one works where another doesn't. The ones I lack are Apple devices - Simply due to cost!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 07:55 AM

Just a little more on my theory about cookies. I tried following the link on my Desktop using Firefox and can read it fine. If I use a private window, which doesn't allow any tracking, following the link in the same way doesn't allow access. I suspect that there is something in The Torygraph's coding that stops people who do not allow tracking reading their stuff.

It's the last link of their's that I shall follow!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 08:18 AM

Yes Dave, I saw DMcG’s post - although there are some people whose posts I choose to always ignore, there are others whose posts I always read, and DMcG is one of the latter. Another good post, of course. On the topic of emails and ‘Junk/Spam Folders’, I make a point of checking my Outlook Junk and Bin folders pretty much daily.

”Moral and relevance of the tale: IT systems are tricksy and just because things work for you does not mean it works for anyone else.”

Absolutely correct. And equally true in reverse. ;-)

BTW, although since retirement my IT skills aren’t as up-to date as they could be, I do have a career-long involvement with IT alongside my accountancy activities, beginning in 1968 aged 21, as a COBOL programmer and company analyst on IBM 1902A Mainframe, through Burroughs VRC programming, user of one of the original IBM PCs (no Hard Drive, just two floppies, Lotus 123 - oh, what fun we had!), a number of years as de facto computer dept. manager whilst officially the Management Accountant, and trainer for the company’s finance, planning, and production IT systems. So, whilst not claiming to have the expertise of some of us here, including yourself, I do believe I have a reasonable modicum of understanding of IT ‘stuff’.

And that puts the issue of Links to bed AFAIC. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 11:14 AM

I never refuse cookies and I still couldn't read it. Anyway, as John Has Spoken, perhaps we can get back to Starmer and Thatcher. I note that he also mentioned Blair as another of his heroes. So we'll be invading Gaza once he gets in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 11:28 AM

He is also fond of Attlee. Perhqps that does not suit your agenda.

I agree that his fondness tor Thatcher will not go down well with all the older voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 12:57 PM

My not mentioning Attlee has nothing to do with any "agenda" you might be ascribing to me (by the way, isn't it amusing that right-wingers always assume that we lefties have "an agenda"! We're reds and what more do you need, eh!) Attlee did a great job for the country after the war but his administration ran out of steam and let the Tories back in after six short years. Starmer will be PM only because the Tories are losers, and my money is on him surviving for far less time than Clem.

Incidentally, Thatcher was a great admirer of Attlee. What a shame that the three of them aren't contemporaries. What a love-in that might have been!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 01:19 PM

"By the way, isn't it amusing that right-wingers always assume that we lefties have "an agenda"

By the way, isn't it amusing that some of tbe older left wingers always presume that younger (not much younger) have "an agenda"

I have never been a member of any political party, just like the vast majority of the UK population.

You spout your cause. Be honest, how many of the population agree with you? Most people just want to improve their personal circumstances. They have little interest in party politics.

Again, I have never voted Tory. I voted remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 01:36 PM

Thatcher had some personal qualities that, if possessed in equal measure by others of a different political stripe, would be regarded by her detractors as desirable and laudable - she was determined, had the courage of her convictions, knew where she wanted the country to go politically, and had a plan to get it there.

In every other respect, she was a complete, absolute, and utter arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 01:46 PM

And people voted for her.

Nowadays the worrying thing is that fewer people turn out to vote.

I am 65. Is there anyone younger than me posting to this thread?

I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 01:54 PM

”I am 65. Is there anyone younger than me posting to this thread?”

Not Guilty, m’lud. 76 at the last count.

I’ve long thought that her election success in the 1979 GE was probably the first time we saw the result of a ‘Personality-Politics’-driven campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 02:00 PM

…Ooops, hit the ‘Go’ button too soon.

Like you, RD, I’ve never voted Tory, I voted ‘Remain’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 02:13 PM

I have the feeling that I am one of the youngest who posts to this thread.

How many (of the handful who post to this thread) have any idea of what the vast population want?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 02:25 PM

It is her legacy of "get what you want and fuck everyone else" that did most damage. In my opinion. We are still suffering from it now. Most people are not selfish by nature but Thatcherism made a virtue of grabbing all you can get and turned caring for others into weakness. The rise of populism is the appeal to the selfish.

Well, it's my theory. Probably bollocks but I still like to share anyway :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 02:49 PM

Can’t disagree with any of that, Dave. As I said, an arsehole in every other respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 02:53 PM

”How many (of the handful who post to this thread) have any idea of what the vast population want?”

I’m guessing none of us can honestly claim that knowledge, RD. But we all probably have a reasonable idea of what we, as individuals, want and I’d suggest that most (though not necessarily all) of us aren’t very different to the majority of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 04:55 PM

How many agree with me! Well I don't know, and neither do you, to answer your cod-rhetorical question. Be honest, you say. Well without making it personal I'd definitely say that, in general, lefties are far more honest and principled than right-wingers, who generally tend to be rather self-serving and me-first. Maybe lefties are not the best tacticians. But if you adopt tactics to win an election, instead of just showing the best of yourself and being honest with the electorate, you might just be having to ditch a principle or two. Maybe that's OK, who knows. Do you suppose that Peter Mandelson or Alastair Campbell always told Blair to tell the unvarnished truth?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 08:01 PM

Good piece in the Guardian pointing out that praising Thatcher was a mistake and providing the arguments for that. A word to the wise, Keir Starmer: whoever advised you to praise Thatcher got it wrong
[John McTernan, who was Tony Blair's political secretary]

If Starmer thinks he's appealing to "swing voters," he's deluded because there are hardly any. What he will do by sucking up to Thatcher's ghost is disillusion the people who are already lined up to vote for him, many without much enthusiasm. People like me, who are already preparing to hold their noses. I won't be changing my mind, but there are millions in this country who were shat on, or their families were, by the despicable Thatcher regime. Clumsy move.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 09:18 PM

Dave the Gnome: It is her legacy of "get what you want and fuck everyone else" that did most damage. In my opinion. We are still suffering from it now.
I suppose the other option was to give in to Arthur Scargill and the mine workers (Who thought they could hold the country to ransom because without coal we weren't sufficient in energy, and the steel mills couldn't run.)
Massive pay rises for the miners would mean higher inflation, and misery for those who couldn't get equivalent rises (and if they could, further fueling inflation).
Good job Maggie made her preparations, and chose her battleground.

And unlike those claiming never to have voted Tory, I have voted Labour at a General Election (but only the once).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 03:22 AM

We shall never know what would have really happened without Thatcherism though will we, Nigel. We do know that with it whole communities were decimated, workers rights were destroyed and the gap between rich and poor started to skyrocket. Funnily enough, I agree that the NUM had become too powerful for it's own good. What I disagree with is that it was a simple binary choice between destroying them or damaging the economy. There could have been a compromise but, as in your 'other option', we will never know!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 05:31 AM

"Massive pay rises for the miners would mean higher inflation, and misery for those who couldn't get equivalent rises (and if they could, further fueling inflation)."

Did this scenario also apply to the "Captains of Industry" and the Banking and Financial bureaucrats who received massive pay rises and continue to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 06:30 AM

Well, they deserved it Raggy. Dangerous job on the trading floor and screwing people over...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 06:46 AM

Raggy: Did this scenario also apply to the "Captains of Industry" and the Banking and Financial bureaucrats who received massive pay rises and continue to do so.

I am also against the 'captains of industry' (and bankers) being paid extreme multiples of what the basic worker gets, and believe it has got out of hand.
However, the massive pay rises for the very few do not greatly affect the average (or median) wage, and so are not effecting inflation in the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 06:51 AM

"Holding the country to ransom" always makes me laugh. You could level that ridiculous accusation against any body of workers who are fighting for higher pay and better conditions, but, oddly, Tories never level the same accusation against non-doms and other ultra-wealthy people who threaten to take their money elsewhere at the mere hint that their taxes might have to go up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 08:49 AM

Nigel. If 999 people earn 100 per week and 1 person earns 1000 a week, the average pay for that 1000 is 199.90 a week. If the 999 ask for a pay increase, we are told that nearly 200 a week is plenty and the workers are holding the country to ransom.

Ok, simplistic but that is how it seems to work nowadays :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 09:02 AM

Sorry Nigel. My apologies for poor arithmetic! No excuse but I do have a man here turning the power on and off and I was distracted! If 999 earn 100 and 1 earn 100000 it should have been of course. Mea Culpa

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 09:17 AM

Nigel. If 999 people earn 100 per week and 1 person earns 1000 a week, the average pay for that 1000 is 199.90 a week.

999*£100 = 99,900
+1,000 = 100,900
/1000 (total people) = 100.90 per week average

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 09:21 AM

Seems you corrected while I was typing.
The new version requires the boss to be on a multiplier of 1,000 of his average workers pay. That still seems a little extreme to use as an example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 12:43 PM

Probably not extreme enought nowadays Nigel!

What percentage of wealth is owned by what percentage of people?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 12:47 PM

The 80/20 rule is more properly: The first 90% of the work takes 90% of the available time. The last 10% also takes 90% of the available time.

Meanwhile, back at the point:

> It happened because Starmer is listening to focus groups of
> swing voters.

That was Tone the Clone's single point of failure, which is more properly called following from the front*. We're stuffed.

* I'm sure I've mentioned this before: it's what our cat does when he thinks there's food in it for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 23 - 01:24 PM

I see Bozo is blaming the WhatsApp app for losing all the messages from the early part of the pandemic. This enquiry is one of the best bits of comic fantasy I have come across in a long time!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 04:13 AM

The resignation of Jennick has set the proverbial cat amongst the pigeons. On "Newsnight" it was speculated that Sunak might make the vote on the new bill a vote of confidence to try to force it through.

On my reading, that would be a tactical error. The right wing are convinced the Conservatives will lose the next election anyway, so their thoughts are not on the party winning the house, but themselves holding their own seat. And they judge the mood of the public is for stronger action on this bill, so they see their best hope lies with voting against it, whether Sunak makes it a confidence vote or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 06:41 AM

Nice dog-whistle news conference from Sunak. Come on you hard-right. Get on board. Let's keep the merry-go-round a-spinning even though I said it won't. Can't you see I'm a desperate man with Cruella snapping at my heels?

By the way, is there a person in the house who can run the country...?

Cruella played it well with Nick Robinson this morning even with his going for her jugular (rather him than me). She kept her cool very nicely whilst saying nothing. We all know what she's up to!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 07:17 AM

It is worth noting that every question from the media was basically the same, though. They are aware this press statement is not going to actually make things easier for Sunak.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 09:52 AM

Every answer was the same too. That part of the press conference was highly-orchestrated. The whole thing reeked of a last-ditch, desperate appeal to his own party, especially those on the right.

Labour are supposedly going to vote against the bill. I'm not aware that Starmer has yet had the courage to say that he'd ditch the whole Rwanda farce. I think he should grow some cojones and say that he will, and tell us what he'd do instead. He can't keep letting the Tories say that "Labour hasn't even got a plan" at every turn.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 08 Dec 23 - 09:48 AM

> Cruella played it well with Nick Robinson this morning even
> with his going for her jugular

Of Livia, Caesar Augustus's missus: "I heard a snake bit her, and died."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Dec 23 - 10:13 AM

How dare Braverman suggest that I am a racist bigot like her BNP/UKIP/EDL/NF/Britain First or other group of neo-nazi s**m chum she needs to court to win their votes by claiing she is nly speaking on behalf of the 'people of Britain'

I demand a personal apology from Nick Robinson for failing to apoligise on line for Braverman's suggestion that as a British National I am racist filth by association.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 23 - 05:47 AM

Bloody painful listen on the Today programme this morning. Mishal Husain had the spluttering, stuttering, clunky, meandering, hesitant Starmer on the back foot all the way through the interview. Hopeless. Worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 24 - 03:10 PM

Bozzer supports Trump

What a surprise. lets just hope that he is as right about this as he was about everything else!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 24 - 01:57 PM

Assuming that Starmer will be PM in November, I would what his contingency is for Trump regaining power? I suspect that the orange one will write our PM off as a Communist! I suppose by comparison...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 24 - 05:42 AM

I WONDER what is etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 04:02 AM

It is great news that the DUP has agreed to power-sharing so that Stormont can restart. The people of Northern Ireland deserve to ability to elect their own government, and that is once again restarting, by the sound of it.

However, the Guardian's report on this says "Sinn Féin will get to nominate its inaugural first minister after Westminster legislates to end checks on goods moving within UK and imposition of EU law". And I am afraid that sounds very much like we are going back to square one. It is inherent in having different rules and regulations in the EU and the UK that there is a border somewhere. To be clear, I don;t mean 'border posts', but I do mean a line where the rules differ on each side of it.

Simply saying 'it will not be in the Irish Sea', which this sounds like, just reopens the question "Where is it then?" that has been the problem since day 1 of the negotiations.

I can see only one solution that preserves the GFA and the Windsor Agreement and satisfies the DUP requirement that the rules are the same in NI and the rest of the UK, and that is that every item produced anywhere in the UK has the 'not for sale in the EU' label.

The idea NI does not have to abide by EU law is trickier to address, because that is in the existing agreement with the EU. So that takes us back to before Theresa May's days...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 05:16 AM

Brexit. The gift that keeps on giving!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 05:32 AM

If UK opens up the NI/UK border, against EU law then EU must either reinstate our membership or tear up the NI Treaty (Good Friday Agreement. Although the former would be ideal, the latter would probably be the best thing as there is a good chance of violence and bloodshed resuming in Ulster, and that would teach the tories a lesson (HEAVY IRONY). When families are burying their loved ones again, they need to be grateful to the self-serving chancers who gratified their ego trips and topped up the troughs that their snouts are planted in like johnson, mogg, fartarse. As far as I am concerned, if one life is lost, every nasty little proverbial who voted leave should be convicted of murder, locked up for the rest of their lives or deported to another continent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jan 24 - 05:47 AM

Yes, having repeatedly failed to sort the position of NI arising out of Brexit, despite every variation May-Johnson-Truss-Sunak and their negotiators have been able to come up with, it now looks like they are trying "Let's dump it in Labour's inbox".

Labour cannot sort it either, of course, without addressing the whole EU relationship, not just borders. And so a key part of the Conservative tactics as we approach the next election is going to include a focus on what Labour will do or rule out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 24 - 07:18 AM

From the BBC News

"Labour will block those not fit to be MPs, says John Healey"

If only all parties would do the same. Mind you, we would most likely end up with an empty house of commons...

It is of course with reference to the latest bout of antisemitism due to criticism of the Israeli regime now being treated as antisemitic.

I am heavily sickened by this and those who weaponise antisemitism to defend the actions of a regime hell bent of exterminating the Palestinian people should be ashamed of themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Feb 24 - 07:54 AM

Amen Dave, Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Feb 24 - 02:42 AM

The Tory Party Chairman on BBC Breakfast this morning, struggling manfully to impart a lustre on a sizeable piece of fæcal matter, following their disastrous performance in the two by-elections yesterday. I felt slightly sorry for him initially, but I soon came to my senses.

Worrying to see the Reform UK (formerly UKIP and The BrexShit Party) polling comparatively well. Apparently racism and xenophobia are alive and well in parts of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 24 - 03:32 AM

I Hope Labour win.I think trade deals that puts the uk and europe in a common market situation would be good

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 24 - 01:29 PM

There isn't a valid Labour Party any more, Dick. Tory light look like winning though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 24 - 03:35 AM

Well, Gorgeous George is back in the house. Too much of a loose cannon for my liking but certainly a force to contend with and a kick in the nuts for Starmer's Tory light party.

In other news, Fishy Rishi is claiming that Islamist and far right politics are ruining the country. An obvious dig at Palestinian supporters.

Surely, as Galloway 8s anything but far right, the two events are not related are they? ;-S

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Mar 24 - 04:19 AM

Very interesting to hear ‘Fishy’ Rishi Sunak, speaking in Downing Street yesterday, complaining that there are elements trying to cause division, and trying to destroy democracy, in the UK.

You’re absolutely right, Rishi. You and your party have been doing those things for years - Tory Brexiteering, Islamophobic statements from Tory MPs, deliberately frustrating long-running pay-disputes with doctors, nurses, and railway-workers and blaming them, denying parliamentary votes and pushing through legislation without a vote being taken, spreading anti-protest propaganda, character-assassinations on MPs of other parties, yadda yadda. I’m sure there are more, but those will do for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 02 Mar 24 - 10:23 AM

> as Galloway [is] anything but far right

It doesn't matter if they're extreme left or extreme right, they're extremists. (That's the polite way to put it.) Most people draw a straight line, and map that to people's political affiliations; but it's not a straight line. The original line was circular, to the left and right of Louis XIV. When I explain this in person, I hold my index fingers together, then use them to draw two semicircles in the air .... and the hands meet again at the bottom.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 24 - 07:06 AM

Was there a Daily Express front page article today about Brexit being a success?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 08 Mar 24 - 07:40 AM

> Was there a Daily Express front page article today about
> Brexit being a success?

There was: it was under Kemi Badenoch's byline. If she says it often enough, she might even believe it herself.

I really, really wish I could declare independence from Planet Headbanger.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Mar 24 - 08:14 AM

Aaaahh, Kemi Badenoch, one of the chief headbangers of the Headbangers Party, trumpets more Pre-election Propaganda bollocks. Presumably, the feeble-minded shit-for-brains who fell for the Brexiteers’ bullshit in 2016 will fall for her nonsense in 2024…

Badenoch’s bollocks…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 24 - 09:22 AM

have the lunatics taken over

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Mar 24 - 01:28 AM

> have the lunatics taken over

Long since. When the playground deteriorates to name-calling and fist fights, those with sense* leave the battlefield, or in this case get kicked upstairs into the House of Lords.

* I would have said "grown-ups", but this is politics we're talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 24 - 04:58 AM

As if to underline the above point, it seems the Fishy Rishi is bringing BoJo back to help win the election. Well, he lied and cheated his way to the top so I suppose bozzer is well suited to fool those who believed his lies last time. Surely even our most ardent Tory supporters on here can see how desperate things are they feel that they cannot win without the blonde buffoon!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 24 - 09:08 AM

Scottish Independence, will it happen? How Will it affect England , and Ireland. They [Yasouf] are talking about reducing corporation tax, to compete with Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 24 - 02:15 PM

What about Wales?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 24 - 05:41 PM

indeed

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 24 - 03:16 AM

…or even Northern Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 24 - 08:46 AM

That is unlikely

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 06:46 AM

I just got a leaflet through about the May elections. It is based on a Union flag, and as I picked it up I was thinking something on the UKIP/NF/Reform lines. Then I thought Conservative is more likely.

It turns out to be Labour. Ok, I get they want to reclaim that they are as patriotic as anyone else. But it still jars ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 05:44 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGCtyISRcRw MAIDEN SPEECH G GALLOWAY

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 24 - 04:32 AM

Not exactly a maiden speech from someone who has been in the house 3 times before (I think!) is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 24 - 05:02 AM

Back on the 19 March I posted on here that I was uncomfortable with the latest Labour leaflets. According to an article in the Guardian, a number of candidates are unhappy as well. Even Sue Gray has reservations.

There was criticism from those at a meeting of MPs from ethnic minority backgrounds, including Starmer’s chief of staff, Sue Gray, and the chief whip, Alan Campbell, of freepost leaflets that were – as one MP put it – “plastered with union jacks”.

Keir Starmer faces discontent as Labour MPs reject union jack election flyers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 24 - 12:40 PM

I must say I do find it annoyong that people object to a flag - be it the Union Jack or the Flag of St George. OK, they have been (ab)used by right wing parties and others but that is not the fault of the flag!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 31 Mar 24 - 06:34 AM

I've noticed an interesting correlation: the inverse relation between the number of flags visible in the camera shot of a politician, and the number of things said politician has to actually say. In the argot of UNIX error messages:

       EEMPTYBARREL, excess flags error

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: keberoxu
Date: 31 Mar 24 - 06:52 PM

Here is someone writing for USA audiences about Great Britain.

New Yorker: Sam Knight on fourteen years of Conservative rule

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 24 - 05:38 PM

A long and hard read, kebroxu, but brilliant and truthful. Thank you for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 24 - 01:26 AM

Yes indeed, an excellent treatise on fourteen years of mis-rule, deception, and the populist, three-word, election-winning, slogan.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 03 Apr 24 - 06:47 AM

I can still remember the Labour slogan "Thirteen years of Tory misrule" which helped sweep Harold Wilson into power six decades ago*. I'm a great fan (or victim?) of the wave-harmonic theory of historical perception.

* Good grief.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 24 - 07:19 AM

Very amusing to see Tory MP Andrea Leadsom on BBC2’s ‘Politics Live’ just now, desperately attempting to apply lip-gloss to a pig over the Tories’ performance, or rather lack of performance, in yesterday’s local elections.

Time the party of selfishness and greed were gone, and for a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 24 - 05:25 AM

We now have a Labour mayor in N Yorks. Which is quite funny seeing as the area contains Sunak's constituency:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 May 24 - 06:15 AM

I was also amused to see Ben Houchen, the Tory Mayor of Tees Valley, was re-elected following a campaign in which he distanced himself from his Party, not even wearing the blue Tory rosette. He continued to eschew the wearing of the rosette at the result-announcement and, when he was later joined by Sunak and congratulated on his win, his body-language spoke volumes about his contempt for his leader and the performance of the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 May 24 - 06:16 AM

Ben Houchen wins Tees Valley Mayoral election…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 24 - 06:40 AM

Ben Houchen's result is much closer to the 'normal' range than his previous 73%. Even so, I am surprised the Teesport issue was not enough to completely sway the result against him. The people of Redcar and Middlesbrough, for example, certainly were familiar with the claims that were made of dubious sales and contracts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 May 24 - 05:47 AM

I must say that the results of the last three days has been particularly pleasing. Sadiq re-elected as London Mayor in spite of a nasty, ad-hominem, negative campaign against him. Bassam elected as GLA rep for Ealing and Hillingdon, 9 Labour & Co-operative part GLA reps and two Labour Party only (oh well can't win them all!!!). And that is just London!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 May 24 - 05:46 PM

Labour have sunk to a new low.

I still cannot believe this.

Keir Starmer sparks Labour anger with decision to admit Natalie Elphicke

We are living in strange times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 May 24 - 03:38 AM

Not my idea of a Labour MP, and not a good move IMO. I wonder if, along with many other Labour MPs, Rachel Reeves wants to tell her to “Fuck off” once again?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 May 24 - 07:40 AM

Natalie Elphike won’t be a Labour MP for long because, reportedly, she does not intend to stand for re-election at the GE later this year or early next year. She’s undoubtedly a nasty piece of work, but I don’t really believe it’s going to matter in the long run. Thinking about it, perhaps accepting her into the LP is nothing more than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick for Sunak and the ERG mob?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 May 24 - 02:01 PM

”James O’Brien and LBC’s Political Editor, Natasha Clark, analyse this week's PMQs as Rishi Sunak faced Sir Keir Starmer.

To the surprise of many in the Commons, Starmer announced that MP Natalie Elphicke had defected from the Conservatives to Labour.

'Why on earth are Labour accepting this Tory?'
'He was rattled throughout'
'It's not something you can prepare for'
'She's not destined to become a sparkly jewel'
'It gives Starmer yet another stick to batter him with'
'Starmer's launched a two-pronged attack on the Tory Party'
'This defection statement is seething'
'A third defection to come?'
'They've run out of road'
'Shall we have a little bet?'
'Sunak is slinging out the same old insults'
'The mud isn't sticking anymore'”

James O’Brien and Natasha Clark on LBC, discussing Sunak’s train-wreck in this Wednesday’s PMQs.

Right on the button.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 24 - 02:39 PM

SPB
"I must say that the results of the last three days has been particularly pleasing. Sadiq re-elected as London Mayor in spite of a nasty, ad-hominem, negative campaign against him."

I admit I was not in London, but I saw no ad hominem attacks on Sadiq Khan. I saw attacks on his 'principles', but no attacks based on him as a human being.

I would be interested to see examples of 'ad hominem' attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 24 - 06:37 PM

Google "attacks on Sadiq Khan", Nigel. You will find plenty. If you want to narrow it down a little try using Tory HQ or Lee Anderson as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 24 - 12:32 AM

Well, Nigel, you could start here - 30p-Lee attacks Sadiq Khan

No thanks necessary, only too pleased to help…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 24 - 12:42 AM

Of course, ad hominem attacks and attempted character assassinations have long been the favourite tools of the shameless Self-Servatives, the party of the greedy and selfish, plenty of evidence in the last few GEs, and they stooped to a new low in the London Mayoral elections - Tory HQ gutter-tactics again…

They have no morals and no shame in their naked lust for power and control, do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 24 - 03:07 AM

In our N Yorks mayoral election I must admit being very impressed by the Tory candidate's manifesto and commitment. Then, right at the end of the leaflet, an attack was launched at the Labour candidate. I doubt I would have voted Tory but had it not been for that attack I would have at least gone to meet him when he visited our village.

I voted for one of the independents.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 May 24 - 08:25 AM

Backwoodsman:
Well, Nigel, you could start here - 30p-Lee attacks Sadiq Khan
No thanks necessary, only too pleased to help…

No thanks will be tendered then. That old article predates (comes before) the Mayoral Election campaign, so doesn't help confirm SPB's comments about the mayoral election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 24 - 02:37 PM

No comment on my second linked article then, Nigel - the one that most definitely does refer to the mayoral election, and ad hominem attacks on Sadiq Khan, not by individuals like the thick-as-a-plank 30p-Lee, but by Tory HQ itself?

Here it is again, in case you missed it the first time…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 24 - 03:16 PM

Nigel, attacks on Sadiq Khan by the Tories and their gutter press friends have been sustained and over a long period. SPBs comment was that he won despite this campaign of smear tactics is valid. Saying that the vile attacks started before the recent elections only underlines the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 24 - 03:25 PM

After a long absence, evidence here that Nigel is alive and well, and still honing his nit-picking skills (and, of course, nit-picking is easier than actually responding to the question).

{{sigh}}

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 May 24 - 03:31 PM

Saying that the vile attacks started before the recent elections only underlines the point.
Or makes the point that the dislike of him is not just because he was standing for mayor.

I can understand people objecting to his ULEZ rules, and objecting to his preference for cycling (war on drivers). Not everything is ad hominem much is against his actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 24 - 03:38 PM

”Not everything is ad hominem much is against his actions”

So you agree that, at least in part if not in entirety, attacks by Tory MPs, Tory supporters, the Tory press, and Tory HQ itself, are ad hominem?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 24 - 04:05 PM

The only point being made was that he won despite a long and vicious smear campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 24 - 03:16 AM

I can understand people objecting to his ULEZ rules, and objecting to his preference for cycling (war on drivers). Not everything is ad hominem much is against his actions quoite
poopycock

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 24 - 10:54 AM

Poppycock? I dread to think what could cause that condition...

399 - someone else can have it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 24 - 11:55 AM

Oh well, seeing as my message was auto corrected I may as well claim 400 :-)

Poopycock? I dread to think what could cause that condition...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 May 24 - 05:03 PM

Supporters of Vaughan Gething (First Minister for Wales) have accused other parties of racial bias for trying to bring him to account for his actions. (dodgy funding, and sacking a colleague for 'leaking')
No one in the opposition seems to have mentioned his race.
The only mention of it that I recall was in his acceptance speech as first minister: “We have of course, today voted also to ensure that Wales becomes the first nation anywhere in Europe to be led by a black person.
“It is a matter of pride for a modern Wales but also a daunting responsibility for me – and one that I do not take lightly."

So he plays that card himself, and then his colleagues claim that others are playing it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 24 - 01:29 PM

So, an election has been called for the 4th of July in the UK, not before time many of us think.

The predictions over the past few months have been for an absolute landslide in favour of the Labour party a result, I for one, would welcome.

However I do not think we should be complacent in any way, I am sure the Conservative party still have a few nasty tricks up the collective sleeves, and I think the smaller parties could also do well given the seemingl massive distrust of the conservatives and the seemingly low personal rating of the Labour leader Kier Starmer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 24 - 03:19 AM

Very telling that Sunak seems to be intending to run the campaign on a ‘Presidential Election’ basis - asking this morning, “Who do you want to see in No. 10?”. Get ready for the usual character-assassination tactics from the Party of the Greedy and Selfish.

And never underestimate voter-stupidity and gullibility - plenty of evidence of those in the Brexit vote and the 2019 GE. More evidence on this morning’s TV vox-pops - a couple of wrinklies saying that the Tories have had some difficult issues to deal with over the past fourteen years, and it’s only fair to vote for them again and give them the chance to put their mistakes right! Jesus Wept!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 24 - 07:41 AM

There will be no Rwanda flights before then and I suspect that is part of the reason he has called it early. When asked what he has done about his promise to keep small boats away he will reply that the Rwanda deportations were blocked so the boats are still coming. Part of his manifesto will be to continue on that tack even though it is blatantly obvious that it was just populist bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 24 - 09:36 AM

What are the chances of either of the main parties addressing the major elephant in the room - Brexit?!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 May 24 - 09:48 AM

Many people, including the two main parties, were happy to ignore it before the idea came to prominence. Why should it be any different now?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 24 - 10:29 AM

I'm probably being a bit slow, Nigel, but I don't understand your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 24 - 11:49 AM

”What are the chances of either of the main parties addressing the major elephant in the room - Brexit?!”

Absolutely zero, IMHO, but they should. The biggest disaster to befall this country since WW2, lie upon lie upon lie rammed down the electorate’s throats by the ‘Leave’ campaigners who wanted Brexit for no other reason than it suited their own greed and selfishness, and the results are clear to see.

It’s very rarely that I agree with a Tory about anything, but I’m in whole-hearted agreement with this piece from Lord Heseltine in his ‘European Movement’ email today…

”I am 91 years old. I have lived through many elections.

But I’m sorry to say that I think this will be the most dishonest general election of my life.

Why? Because it’s going to talk about all the problems, but avoid any of the real solutions which depend upon a closer relationship with Europe.

As I told Sky News on Wednesday, you can’t have a discussion about the country’s economy, or its defence, or immigration, without mentioning Brexit.

We have cut ourselves off from our principal market, our most important partners, and that is the underlying crisis that faces this country.

It’s terrifying to me that while the public opinion is moving and the younger generation is frustrated, the two major parties think they can go through 6 weeks of campaigning and not have anything to say about it.

At the European Movement, our job is to call out this hypocrisy. We’re here to make a nuisance, to upset the apple cart and say the (apparently) unsayable - that we would be better off back in Europe.

Over the next 6 weeks, and beyond, we shall be single-minded in this purpose.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 24 - 04:59 AM

Trade agreements with Europe may be one thing that Starmer is able to improve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 24 - 09:58 AM

Trade agreements with Europe may be one thing that Starmer is able to improve

There's a pretty good chance of that, and other EU-related things. Johnson, and to a much lesser extent May (due her weak Parliamentary position), forced all negotiations with the EU into ones based on mutual distrust. To say something nice about Sunak, he went some way towards thawing that, especially in the earlier stages of his premiership. I have hopes that Starmer can go further in that respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 24 - 12:29 PM

More distraction by the Tories… Tories to bring back National Service.

A deliberate attempt to distract attention from the truth of their disastrous fourteen years of mis-rule, their greed and selfishness in peddling those BrexShit lies, their policy of Privatisation-by-Stealth of the NHS, their cutting the number of police officers by 20,000 then setting 10,000 back on and falsely claiming that we have ‘record numbers’ of police officers, the crashing of the economy by Truss and ‘Khazi’ Kwarteng resulting in people’s mortgage repayments going through the roof, the cost of living crisis, the exponential increase in the numbers of people relying on food banks to feed themselves and their families, their moronic ‘Stop The Boats’ three-word slogan, and the equally moronic Rwanda policy.

What a bunch of bell-ends they, and their supporters, truly are.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 26 May 24 - 02:14 PM

The claim is that a quick burst of National Service would liberate the yoof from the social bubbles they live in. I prescribe a quick burst of National Service for the entire Tory Party, for exactly the same reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 May 24 - 08:04 PM

The carefully chosen date falls within the first week of the Scottish school holidays (N Ireland too, I think) when many of those entitled to vote will be away from home. Predict a surge in postal voting, and hopefully not too many votes wasted!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 May 24 - 09:09 AM

Just realised: the National Service thing is a classic dead cat manoevre: when "the facts are overwhelmingly against you", nuke the conversation by throwing a dead cat on the dining room table. (Sadly, methinks the tale of the expression's Australian origins is another of de Pfeffel's straight-banana stories. Personally, I can't wait for this particular dead cat to become a reverse ferret.)

Meanwhile, I have a suspicion I know the real story that they were trying to divert attention from: Johnnie Mercer, the veterans minister, was shoulder-surfed while doing parliamentary business on a train, and the contents were leaked by the Times. Amongst other things:

His [Mercer's] memo states that he was upset that his attempts to let military veterans, who had previously been turned away from polling stations, use their ID cards to prove their identity when voting had been denied. Downing Street special advisers apparently blocked these proposals because it could also "open the floodgates" and allow students to also use their ID cards too.

This tale has only, to the best of my knowledge, propagated as far as The Register, and in particular not as far as the TV news. Dead cat managed; the fact that the Forces are implicated is a neat twist, as it shuts Mercer up too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 24 - 12:59 PM

I wonder what Fishy Rishi’s next act of desperation will be? ‘Bring Back Woolworth’s’? ‘Proper Juke-boxes in Pubs’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 24 - 03:48 AM

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/cso-ireland-has-imported-20000t-of-peat-in-the-past-year/ JOE OFFER This link is safe
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/cso-ireland-has-imported-20000t-of-peat-in-the-past-year/
ireland imports tonnes of peat,after banning turf cutting

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 May 24 - 07:50 AM

Pray tell what this has to do with either Brexit or UK Politics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 May 24 - 08:00 AM

Absolutely nothing AFAICS. Probably posted to the wrong thread…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 May 24 - 04:21 PM

Following on from the huge success of the Tories’ ‘Bring Back National Service’ announcement, it’s rumoured that Rishi Sunak will shortly announce their next election promise - to Bring Back White Dog-shit… ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 29 May 24 - 09:26 PM

> Bring Back White Dog-shit

That'd corner them the tanners' vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 May 24 - 06:37 AM

What the tories fail to (publicly) mention is that the scheme would be funded by UK Shared Prosperity Funding (so called levelling up), which replaces lost EU Regional Economic Development Programmes funding. The upshot is that the most deprived regions will lose significant levels of financial support and investment.

There are other issues which are conveniently being ignored.

(1)If young people are expected to sign up for military national service, then they need to be paid at the same entry rate as professionals. This seems to be no more than getting the numbers up 'on the cheap;. Another question is will professional recruitment be frozen as a cost cutting exercise.

(2) By making community volunteering an obligation, this devalues the contribution of vast numbers of people who volunteer by their own volition. How will the government ensure the additional recognition of the countless numbers of people who are already making a significant contribution to their communities? If my volunteering was to be labelled as National Service (albeit me being 64), I would probably walk.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 May 24 - 06:41 AM

Also will there be a clear distinction between national service volunteers and community service order volunteers beyond the requirement for those serving community service orders to wear hi-vis vests - a step below the previous practice of branding malefactors.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 24 - 03:50 PM

As far as community volunteering is concerned, I presume the government decides what is acceptable. I wonder how much will be rejected as "too woke."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 24 - 04:12 AM

I think a national community service,non military would be a better idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 24 - 04:16 AM

Starmer and Sunak will be under pressure to comment on the outcome of Trump's trial.

My.money is on 'We don't comment on other country's decisions' (even though of course they so when it suits)

As ex-DPP Starmer has the harder task, but we know there a significant chance Trump gets elected, and we know he always bears grudges. Both candidates will take that into account.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 24 - 04:24 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/09/emission-from-war-military-gaza-ukraine-climate-change
A Link to THE GUARDIAN, perfectly safe, and a topic that affects everyone in the world so it is relevant to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 24 - 05:43 AM

SPB: What the tories fail to (publicly) mention is that the scheme would be funded by UK Shared Prosperity Funding (so called levelling up),

According to (Home Secretary) James Cleverly:
Mr Cleverly insisted the plan was "fully funded", with £1.5bn diverted from levelling up's UK Shared Prosperity Fund from 2028. A further £1bn would come from a crackdown on tax avoidance and evasion, the Tories say. from BBC News

The fact that you may not have heard/read about official statements is no evidence that they haven't been made.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 24 - 07:38 AM

You have to hand it to the PR guy for the Conservatives. Not content with standing Sunak in front of the Titantic muse it seema they have picked theme music from "The Killers."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 24 - 10:10 AM

"Mr Cleverly insisted the plan was "fully funded", with £1.5bn diverted from levelling up's UK Shared Prosperity Fund from 2028"

And after 14 years of blatant lying you still believe everything that comes out of the mouths of these con men?

Tell you what, Nigel, I have 47 million pounds that was left to me by a Nigerian Prince. Just send me your bank details if you want a share...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 24 - 01:44 PM

I never permit myself to fall for any of the BS put around by Tory Ministers, and especially the BS spouted by Cone-head.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 24 - 02:47 PM

Dave the Gnome.
I wasn't claiming to believe everything they say. I was pointing out (to SPB) that his claim that the Conservatives hadn't mentioned how the scheme would be funded was false.

If you want to set up a straw man argument, please go ahead. But I feel no reason to try to counter it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 01 Jun 24 - 03:42 PM

... especially the BS spouted by Cone-head.

I wish you would use names instead of insults, BWM. I struggle to know who you mean.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 24 - 03:46 PM

Yes, fair enough Nigel, that was a straw man and I withdraw that argument. What you actually did was throw in your usual irrelevant nitpick. It doesn't matter at all what Cleverly said. The fact remains that the Tories try to obscure their failures with lies and misdirection.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 24 - 10:57 PM

You do you, Doug, and I’ll do me. That’s how I roll.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Jun 24 - 06:06 AM

How about names alongside the insults?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 24 - 06:38 AM

You need to hone your skills of comprehension and observation, Doug. Nigel’s post of 01 Jun 24 - 05:43 AM should help you solve the puzzle, along with this link.

In the meantime, I recommend you concentrate your criticism towards the bunch of greedy Self-servatives who have asset-stripped the country for the past fourteen years. They deserve every insult directed at them for the wilful harm they’ve brought on all but the most wealthy in our society.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 24 - 01:09 PM

To be fair, BWM, I had no idea who you were talking about either. And while I would agree that the Tories deserve to be ridiculed for their abysmal record I don't think that mocking someone's physical characteristics is a good ploy :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 24 - 01:50 PM

I repeat - you do you, and I’ll do me. End of AFAIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 24 - 02:15 PM

Fair enough but remember that if anyone ever attacks you by bringing up your physical characteristics, you will have no defence. Attack what people do, not how they look. The former is a personal choice, the latter is the luck of the draw.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jun 24 - 02:41 PM

Dave:
It doesn't matter at all what Cleverly said. The fact remains that the Tories try to obscure their failures with lies and misdirection.

It does matter when the previous claim was:
What the tories fail to (publicly) mention is that the scheme would be funded by UK Shared Prosperity Funding (so called levelling up), (by SPB).
I was pointing out that it had been clearly stated, by a leading Conservative.

All I was calling for was a little honesty. Perhaps that is hoping too much in a politics thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 24 - 03:19 PM

”Fair enough but remember that if anyone ever attacks you by bringing up your physical characteristics, you will have no defence.”

I really don’t care about such things, Dave - as a slap-head, a short-arse, and a former fatty, who played competitive sports for many years, and was at times subjected by opponents to every insult in the book, I’m well-versed in dealing with those kinds of insults - I just ignore them. Water off a duck’s back AFAIC.

And, unlike some, I don’t try to ‘act the Mod’ and dictate to others the terms they should use to express themselves here. If people don’t like what I say, they’re under no compunction to read my posts, we all are capable of hitting the ‘Scroll’ button.

Now…End of, AFAIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 24 - 03:30 PM

Nigel "clearly stated by a leading Conservative" is just a euphemism for a lie :-)

John, you failed to mention that you were also a dog lover. How about I have a go at that?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 12:23 AM

Dave, you seem to have a reasonable modicum of intelligence, so I wonder why you have such difficulty in understanding a statement so simple as ‘End of, AFAIC’?

Or perhaps you’re simply trying to provoke even more stupid argument over SFA?

I repeat, for the third and final time, ‘End of, AFAIC’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 03:13 AM

I do have a reasonable modicum of intelligence, BWM, but why you keep posting after saying "end of AFAIC" is beyond me. Was that really the "final time"? I doubt it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 06:38 AM

BTW - You are also "under no compunction to read my posts" if you don't like what I say. And when you state that "we all are capable of hitting the ‘Scroll’ button" do you not apply that to yourself? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 08:52 AM

Dave:
Nigel "clearly stated by a leading Conservative" is just a euphemism for a lie :-)
No, it was pointing to a statement that funding for 'conscription' would be coming (partly) from the 'levelling up' funds. (which is something SPB claimed wasn't being admitted)

If you start with the belief that anything the Conservatives say will be lies then it's only worth listening to the Labour side of any argument.
But if you do that you'll only ever get one side, and that will also probably contain lies, but presumably Labour lies are acceptable.

Welcome to the echo-chamber.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 09:51 AM

From the BBC

"Reform UK honorary president Nigel Farage is due to make an "emergency announcement" as speculation mounts he'll stand as a candidate"

Do you think that he will be joining the Labour party?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 10:48 AM

I don't think they have moved quite that far right yet, Rain Dog, but nothing surprises me nowadays!

Nigel, even though you C&Pd the smiley at the end of my statement you seem to have not grasped the significance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 11:21 AM

He is taking over as leader of Reform and is also going tocontest Clacton.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 11:24 AM

‘I am standing for Essex,’ Farage announces.

Maybe Clacton sounds too underwhelming. Let's begin the misrepresentations in the very announcement, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 11:44 AM

Good old Farage. The man who makes Tories look good...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 11:58 AM

Even the Second Coming of Christ as their leader wouldn’t make the Tories look good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 12:35 PM

I do wonder what the position is with Farage standing to be MP and also having a regular show on GB News. That must breach the electoral rules, surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 12:40 PM

They wouldn't have JC with his views on money :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 01:24 PM

Farage said at the press conference that he will be giving up his show on GB News.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jun 24 - 01:29 PM

JC did have an advantage when it comes to money. Not everyone can rustle up a picnic for 5,000 without making a trip to the shops.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jun 24 - 05:16 AM

Don't you just love (irony) those companies masquerading as political parties but with no effort or intention of being democratically organised which serve no purpose whatsoever than being a ego trip and potential side hustle for individuals who have mastered the art of playing to people's most base prejudices. That is all populism 'politics' is about. No doubt the knuckle draggers will adore fartarse with his messages that reinforce and legitimise their hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Jun 24 - 05:53 AM

..... which serve no purpose whatsoever than being a ego trip ....

Like it or not, UKIP achieved its basic aim in the Brexit referendum.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jun 24 - 06:50 AM

A recent article from Tax Policy Associates

"Labour and the Tories have both said they can raise £6bn from cracking down on tax avoidance and evasion. How plausible is this?"

Is there a £6bn tax avoidance magic money tree?

++

Parties promise so much nowadays but it is becoming harder and harder to believe them. I think that finances are going to be very tight for the next government, whoever gets in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 04 Jun 24 - 07:10 AM

> I think that finances are going to be very tight
> for the next government

*Agree*. The outgoing party doesn't need to care, and the incoming one daren't fail to match them boast-for-boast. The only one to solve this conundrum was Churchill, with his "sweat and tears" speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jun 24 - 09:52 AM

Just read about use of deep fake videos illegally using the BBC brand to supposedly post on social media insidious and insulting comments. With an election present, the BBC needs to call out this misuse of their brand and either (1) send everyone a transcript of the actual interview, or (b) rebroadcast the actual interview on all news channels and on its own social media and web pages. It might also be a good idea for the Electoral Commission to write to everyone in the relevant constituencies to notify use of deep fake that might impact on their voting choices. I would rather have millions of pounds of tax payers money spent keeping elections 'clean' than a single voter making a decision based upon misinformation, otherwise we might as well not bother with elections and ask the election manipulators who they want to win and save the money spent on a gneeral election.

Whatever the party affected, we cannot allow our democracy to be undermined this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 24 - 10:49 AM

Some might say that **some** voters already make their choices based upon misinformation - e.g. the barefaced lies of the Brexit 'Leave' campaign, the scandalous character-assassination of Jeremy corbyn by the lies of the Tories in 2019, the oft-repeated claim by the Tories in this current GE that 'Labour has no plan' on whatever issue is being discussed.

Misinformation has long been a tool of the unscrupulous in our politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jun 24 - 11:52 AM

Backwoodsman: Some might say that **some** voters already make their choices based upon misinformation - e.g. the barefaced lies of the Brexit 'Leave' campaign, the scandalous character-assassination of Jeremy corbyn by the lies of the Tories in 2019, the oft-repeated claim by the Tories in this current GE that 'Labour has no plan' on whatever issue is being discussed.

1,the barefaced lies of the Brexit 'Leave' campaign, as opposed to the remainer lies of an immediate £60bn black hole, & mass unemployment
2,the scandalous character-assassination of Jeremy corbyn by the lies of the Tories in 2019, I believe it was Labour who actually managed to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn (and who now seem to be delighted that he is no longer part of the party)
3,the oft-repeated claim by the Tories in this current GE that 'Labour has no plan' on whatever issue is being discussed. How can you possibly know who has made a choice based on this as the election has yet to take place?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 24 - 12:58 PM

Nigel, yes, there was misinformation on both sides. It was an awful and nasty campaign which, in my opinion, accelerated the slide into the gutter political fights that now seem to be the norm. However, BWM was right about the "barefaced lies of the Brexit 'Leave' campaign". No amount of wrongs will ever put that right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 04 Jun 24 - 01:06 PM

Now now, you two. Put the handbags *down*, and step *away* from your keyboards, before your friendly neighbourhood MudElf happens by.

Meanwhile, back at SPB's comment: The problem would be that nobody would be convinced by a full-bore refutation, as the offender need only cry "conspiracy". Bad rumours become self-propagating, especially if they're juicy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 24 - 01:10 PM

”I believe it was Labour who actually managed to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn (and who now seem to be delighted that he is no longer part of the party)”

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the lies used by the Tories as a character-assassination tactic in their 2019 GE campaign (and which lies undoubtedly played a part in their achieving their landslide victory).

”How can you possibly know who has made a choice based on this as the election has yet to take place?”

Your English Comprehension skills seem to be somewhat lacking, Nigel - I haven’t claimed to know ‘who has made a choice based on this’, I simply gave an example of misinformation being put about by the Tories during the current GE campaign. If you can show where I made the claim that I ‘know who has made a choice based on this’, I would be very interested to see it.

You really do need to train yourself to resist picking at those nits.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 24 - 01:14 PM

MaJoC, the moderators are not interested in this thread unless things get particularly nasty. Which they haven't.

Condescending twaddle could change that of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jun 24 - 06:08 AM

Nigel, on your first point, the leave campaign made promises that they knew were impossible to fulfill unless the EU were to rewrite all their treaties with respect to the operation of the single market and customs union in its dealings with third countries. On the other hand the remain campaign made predictions as to the impact of leaving which is not a promise. Although the impact was not as disastrous as what was predicted, conditions have worsened, not necessary for the wealthy safe in their bubbles, but effeminately for us mere mortals. To be honest, since leaving the EU the fabric of our society is being dragged into the sewers and makes me question whether life is worth living any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jun 24 - 07:10 AM

impossible to fulfill unless the EU were to rewrite all their treaties with respect to the operation of the single market and customs union in its dealings with third countries
As long as the EU have 'special relationships' with Norway & Switzerland they do not have a single method of dealing with non-EU countries. So expecting to deal along similar lines was not asking for something 'impossible'

but effeminately for us mere mortals.
Sorry, I cannot understand your intended meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jun 24 - 08:52 AM

Is it just me who thinks that the only reason fartarse is standing and reclaimed leadership of that vile nasty piece of works party is so that revolting g*t will be allowed to open its vile mouth in the all parties' leaders' debate. I hope the presenter will at least have the decendcy to tell it to shut the **** up every time it attempts to starts whining and the TV channel hosting the debate will write to apologise to every household if they fail to make an announcement at the start of the programme that "allowing the s**m to mouth of may make decetn people want to vomit"

You may notice I have heavily toned down what I would really want to say about fartarse, and apologies to any sensitive readers who may be offended by the tome of my language.

Rant over - just glad to get it off my chest so I can get on with more important things.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jun 24 - 11:17 AM

unfortunately not

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jun 24 - 11:20 AM

May's red lines ruled out any possible mutually beneficial relationship under EEA or EFTA so I stand by my original assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 24 - 12:06 AM

The BBC and other news sources have always given far to much credence and air-time to Farage, putting him up there alongside leading, successful figures in our political arena, whereas he’s a failure as a politician, having failed to get elected as an MP no less than eight times, a former absentee MEP who hardly ever attended the European Parliament (whilst presumably accepting the substantial salary), and a one-trick pony in terms of his focus.

Why anyone would have even the faintest scintilla of interest in anything he has to say is totally beyond my comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 24 - 06:16 AM

Didn't know whether to post this here or on the joke thread!

Just seen on Facebook. How come Nigel Farage, Tommy Robinson and Laurence Fox are commemorating D-Day? Their side lost didn't they...

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Jun 24 - 08:07 AM

The trouble is every time that repulsive object is given media opportunities, it gets another opportunity to spread more of its toxic bile.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jun 24 - 07:50 PM

Basckwoodsman: The BBC and other news sources have always given far to much credence and air-time to Farage, putting him up there alongside leading, successful figures in our political arena, whereas he’s a failure as a politician, having failed to get elected as an MP no less than eight times,

7 attempts is definitely 'less than eight times'
BBC

But don't let facts get in the way of your rant!

And, No, I'm not supporting Farage. Just looking for factual comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 24 - 08:46 PM

Interesting that you haven’t disputed anything in my post other than a small numerical error, Nigel.

But nit-picking is much easier than actually debating an issue, isn’t it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jun 24 - 04:38 AM

Backwoodsman try paying attentiuon to detail

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jun 24 - 06:17 AM

Backwoodsman, don't forget to pay "attentiuon" to detail !!!!! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 24 - 06:40 AM

:-D :-D :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 24 - 07:35 AM

”Backwoodsman, don't forget to pay "attentiuon" to detail !!!!! :-)”

I always do pay ‘attentiuon’ to detail, Raggy, but there’s not much I can do when the source of my information gets it wrong, other than be an adult and have the balls to admit to it. And at least I don’t moan to the Mods and get them to amend/remove my errors and the posts of my critics when they’re pointed out (unlike others around here who shall remain nameless but they know who they are). ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 24 - 02:15 PM

We don't know who they are BWM. Name names! Let us in on the secret!

Or is it just like the mysterious "they" as reported in the press? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 24 - 02:42 PM

I think you’re being deliberately obtuse and you know perfectly well that they exist, and equally well precisely who I’m referring to! As I said - no names, no pack-drill.

Now back to the thread-topic…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 24 - 05:52 PM

I don't. Honestly! I am not being deliberately anything. I just don't understand obfuscation. If you want to attack someone, just do it. Don't sneak around with the no names, no pack drill blllocks. It's politicians and their weasel ways that got us in this mess. Being strait with people is the better option.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jun 24 - 08:55 PM

"Being strait" !?

Is that like the Bering Strait only shorter ................?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 02:20 AM

As I said elsewhere - Attention to detail… ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 02:24 AM

:-D :-D :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 02:42 AM

LOL Dave! We’ve all done it, and certainly will drop clangers again in future!

And, FWIW, I wasn’t ‘attacking’ anyone - just gently letting those I referred to know that I’m on to them and their little games, no ‘naming and shaming’ necessary. Not an ‘attack’ as such, more an act of self-defence/preservation..

So, subject closed AFAIC, and on with the issues of Brexit & other UK political topics…??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 03:10 AM

Fairy Nuff BWM. Apologies if I came across as to harsh. I just find that references to the mysterious "they" get up my nose. I think it is relevant to the topic in that the press use it to smear their favoured party's opponents without the risk of getting sued. I call a spade a spade and, often to my own detriment, speak my mind.

Anyroads, yes, back to the main topic of bringing the government's failings to light. And naming the wrongdoers:-)

Not that it will do much good on an obscure music website but it will make us feel better

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 05:34 AM

One of the things that’s driving me nuts about the GE Campaign is that it seems almost impossible to get a Tory to talk about Tory policies. On TV and radio, and in the press and on SM, they talk constantly about Labour (including the usual lies, such as Sunak’s ‘£2,000 additional tax under Labour’ bare-faced lie).

Seems to be an indication of how little the Tories have got to offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 06:22 PM

Backwoodsman:
Interesting that you haven’t disputed anything in my post other than a small numerical error, Nigel.

But nit-picking is much easier than actually debating an issue, isn’t it?

Apart from the 'small numerical error' (also known as a 'factual inaccuracy') the rest of your post was personal opinion. I cannot argue with your opinions. You are welcome to hold them. Please also allow me to hold mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 06:36 PM

Any comment on Sunak's "factual inaccuracies" Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 06:44 PM

Dave: Any comment on Sunak's "factual inaccuracies" Nigel?

He was definitely wrong to suggest that Wales would have any interest in the soccer.

His suggestion of Labour planning for a £2,000 increase in taxes for each 'working household' has been queried, but we have yet to see what is in the party manifestos.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 10:39 PM

Saw a brilliant image on SM yesterday. The famous B&W wartime photo taken from a landing-craft on a Normandy beach, with the troops, backs to the camera, wading ashore into battle, and Photoshopped with an image of a suited-and-booted Sunak, briefcase in hand, getting back into the landing craft, ready for the journey back to Blighty.

The title over the photo? ‘The Longest Half-Day’!

I wonder if Sunak’s regretting his decision to run a ‘Presidential-style’ campaign yet? Thanks to his disastrous gaffes and easily-called-out deceits (Q: How can you tell he’s lying? A: His mouth’s moving!), ‘Presidential’ isn’t the image of him that’s coming over ATM - ‘Desperate and Failing’ springs much more readily to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jun 24 - 05:58 AM

I wonder if Sunak’s regretting his decision to run a ‘Presidential-style’ campaign yet? Thanks to his disastrous gaffes and easily-called-out deceits (Q: How can you tell he’s lying? A: His mouth’s moving!), ‘Presidential’ isn’t the image of him that’s coming over ATM - ‘Desperate and Failing’ springs much more readily to mind.

Looking at the nation across the ocean, I don't think 'presidential' is something to aspire to.
Of course, France has a 'president' as well. But probably not than an inspiring person.
Putin? I'm starting to see a theme here . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 24 - 02:36 PM

Why on earth do the TV news providers keep giving Farage equal air time with the major parties? His party has no seats. He has failed to be elected 7 times. When he was an MEP, he never attended. It's like them producing a documentary on astro physics with Brian Cox and, to provide a balanced view, letting the bloke who read something on Facebook have his say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Jun 24 - 03:05 PM

They have candidates standing in approx 600 seats, I think.
Hardly surprising that they are getting some media coverage.

Talking of candidates, we have 11 standing here in Dover & Deal. Some people have more money than sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 24 - 03:29 PM

It's not even a proper political party, Rain Dog, it's a limited company. They have basically just bought their way into the arena.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 24 - 04:24 PM

Who's going to claim 500 then? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jun 24 - 04:50 PM

Oh go on then! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 04:28 AM

I try to read all the manifestos from the parties, so I have been looking at the Conservative one yesterday.

Of relevance here is the section on 'Sport and Culture'. This is one A4 sheet. There are two paragraphs on sport, then roughly one and a half columns on culture.

This deals with three topics.

The first is about making TV and film in the UK. That is economically important, but where films were made is not culturally important, in my view.   

The second is about setting up a review to see if anything can be done to stop pubs and nightclubs closing.

The third is about using the BBC licence fee review to ensure it "represent[s] the perspectives of the entire nation with diversity of thought, accuracy and impartiality as its guiding principles", which is a debate in its own right about who judges such things and whether fairness means something that 99% believe and 1$ should be given equal air time. I would not expect such detail in a manifesto, of course, but what is there implies those questions would have to be answered.

But that's it. Nothing about theatres, orchestras, ballet and other dance. Nothing about how those might feature in the school curriculum. Nothing about the small bands who are finding it more difficult to work in Europe. In short, I would say, only the pubs-and-clubs section is really about culture at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 04:33 AM

Accidentally, I only talked about the 'performing' side of culture. There is also nothing about things like museums, historical preservation and other 'non-performing' cultural issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 06:42 AM

So many people want to see more help, money spent, on their particular interests, projects etc. That includes individual voters, organisations, businesses, government departments, councils, NGOs etc etc. On the whole they are not so keen on it being paid for by increased taxes unless it is others paying those increased taxes. Money is going to be tight for whoever gets in. That is the one thing we can all he sure about.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 07:31 AM

When I was in my youth, there was a song often on the radio with the chorus "Everybody wants to go to heaven/But nobody wants to die.' It is an attitude I have been very familiar with for a long time. Yes, people want what tax pays for. No, they don't want to pay the tax.


So it was not so much money I was referring to as almoat the opposite: the manifesto has a view of culture that is entirely based on money.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jun 24 - 04:12 PM

Dave: Why on earth do the TV news providers keep giving Farage equal air time with the major parties? His party has no seats.

Just to set the record straight, they have won no seats.
They do have a seat for Lee Anderson who defected from the Conservatives in March.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 24 - 02:22 AM

Just to set the record straight, no party has any seats. Parliament was dissolved approximately three weeks ago, at which time all MPs lost their seats.

With any luck, that event will have ended 30p-Lee’s parliamentary career permanently…

Apologies for nit-picking, but you know the old saying - “What’s sauce for the goose…”. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 24 - 05:20 AM

Thinking about this section of the Conservative manifesto:
"We will fund this by changing the law to close
university courses in England with the worst
outcomes for their students. Courses that
have excessive drop-out rates or leave students
worse off than had they not gone to university
will be prevented from recruiting students
by the universities regulator."

You know, that's going to be tricky to define because what happens to an individual is not what happens to the average. Very few people who study nuclear physics will end up as nuclear physicists: there just aren't that many jobs. Maybe they get a job in something else, but should they have been on a different physics course and we should shut the nuclear physics course?

Or take my daughter, who studied Philosophy. For the best part of a decade she was stuck on zero hour and short term contracts for very low wages, but is now Head of HR and Recruitment for her international firm on a pretty good salary. She credits the skills she learned on her course for a good part of that. Worthwhile course or not?

Humanities are all about evaluating arguments and multiple viewpoints, thinking about what things really mean and what lies behind what was said, seeing alternatives. Sciences and Maths less so. "Compare and contrast these two experiments"? I don't think so.


.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Jun 24 - 01:45 PM

> "Compare and contrast these two experiments"

From the science side of the fence, I'd phrase that as: "Which of these two (or more) experimental approaches is more likely to lead to an accurate result?" And at its cutting edge, mathematics is an art form, which happens to be the language which best expresses scientific thought.

As for the employment of nuclear-physics graduates: It's an unfortunate fallacy that degree courses are specific job training exercises. What they're really for is training people how to think, and more importantly how to learn, for themselves.* Take my case --- I started out in maths, got a bachelor's in electronics and a PhD in a radioastronomy subject, found myself seduced by programming, and ended up doing systems administration for a living.

* Getting fresh new nuclear scientists is something of a side-effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 24 - 04:28 AM

I agree with much of that, MaloC. By way of disclusure, my first degree was mathematics and my master's in Computing, so I am very much of the "sciences" nature.
At degree level, there is so much science and maths to learn that we generally are doing the same as at primary school but at a more advanced level. Learn this, become familiar with manipulating it, move on to the next thing. Deciding which of two experiments may arise at PhD level, but even there is is relatively rare and usually limited to justifying your thesis. It only becomes common when PhD people get into places like CERN.
In the same way it only really surfaced in my maths when deciding whether existing texhnique A, B or C is most applicable to this problem.

I completely agree that you should not be thinking of degrees as direct training. But that is exactly where the idea of scrapping degrees because they don't show "a good return on investment' fails. The relationship is far more subtle and indirect than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 24 - 04:52 AM

The Tories don't want an electorate that can think for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jun 24 - 05:10 AM

Watching Farage on BBC Breakfast this morning, it’s blindingly obvious he’s a one-trick pony. If, by some weird twist of fate, Reform won the election, he’d run a mile - we saw it after the Brexit vote, the next day neither he nor his blond, lying buffoon crony were anywhere to be seen, both scared shitless.

He’s all teeth and trousers, a bag of hot air. He can bluster all he likes because he knows Reform won’t win the election and he will never have to step up to the plate, put his money where his big mouth is, and run the country. How anyone with at least one single working brain-cell can contemplate voting Reform completely baffles me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 04:12 AM

You're braver than me BWM. As soon as I see his face the TV goes off!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 05:51 AM

> As soon as I see his face the TV goes off!

*Relief*: At least it's not just me who has an allergic reaction to the sight of known bullshitters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 05:58 AM

It’s an opportunity to practise my expletives, Dave! Mrs Backwoodsperson practises her expletives too… ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 04:57 PM

BWM: Watching Farage on BBC Breakfast this morning, it’s blindingly obvious he’s a one-trick pony. If, by some weird twist of fate, Reform won the election, he’d run a mile - we saw it after the Brexit vote, the next day neither he nor his blond, lying buffoon crony were anywhere to be seen, both scared shitless.

Farage was not part of the government. It was not his place to put forward, or implement, policies. Although if invited he would probably have provided (what he saw as) guidance. But the then government (led by Cameron) never expected 'leave' to win, and probably saw Farage as an enemy.
Farage was instrumental in ensuring that there was a vote on the subject. As such, he did what he would have seen as his job.

Also, please name names. Who are you describing as 'his blond, lying buffoon crony'?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jun 24 - 05:18 PM

Stop pretending to be thick Nigel. You know perfectly well who he is. You’re making yourself look very silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 05:36 AM

I find it interesting that the logo for Reform says 'Reform UK' in the centre but 'The Brexit Party' in a surrounding circle.

This suggests to me they are going for a deliberate ambiguity to get as many Brexit Party voters as thy can while claiming to be a different party, or alternatively at some future date they can drop the 'Reform UK' part and that was a mission and slogan, and that the group has been "The Brexit Party" all along.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 07:47 AM

Leopards don’t change their spots.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 08:08 AM

I find it interesting that the logo for Reform says 'Reform UK' in the centre but 'The Brexit Party' in a surrounding circle.

A google search for reform party logo gives several versions. The one noted above does not appear to be the current accepted version.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 08:37 AM

Look at their website, Nigel - https://www.reformparty.uk/ - I held my nose and saw that if you scroll down to the "Congratulation Alex Wilson" graphic, the mentioned "Reform UK / Brexit Party" is still in use on their website. WTF does it matter what it says anyway though? They are not a political party but a limited company formed by the self-aggrandising feeble excuse for a man that is Farage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 02:50 PM

I just posted this on Faceache. Preaching to the converted here in the main but you never know...

"In a couple of weeks we have what is probably the most important election for a long time. Before you cast your vote just remember this. There is nothing more important than the health and welfare of the people. For the last 14 years our NHS has been asset stripped and sold off to make a quick profit for the already rich. No-one can fix it quickly but make sure that the damage does not continue. Get rid of the spivs and conmen that have been selling off YOUR NHS. It may be too late for us old gits but give your children and grandchildren a better chance at being looked after. Don't believe the bollocks that the health service is beyond repair. It was built after a world war. It can be rebuilt now."

Thank you for reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 03:23 PM

A google search for reform party logo gives several versions. The one noted above does not appear to be the current accepted version

It is the one on the "manifesto" I downloaded from their website immediately after the launch.

Yes, I read it, along with all the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 24 - 03:28 PM

Ah, looking again they have put up a new version of the manifesto. However, I can post the one that was in place when the launch completed, if you like.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 02:15 AM

As the election campaign progresses, it’s becoming blindingly obvious how little the Tories have got to offer - they are relying almost totally on scare tactics and trying to distract from their own shortcomings by talking constantly about Labour. You know they’re desperate when they roll Shapps out to propagate their lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 03:07 AM

It must be around a decade ago that I said if I wanted to privatise the NHS, one of the earliest steps would be tax relief on private health insurance. Here is a clipping from Reform's "contract":


Tax Relief of 20% on all Private Healthcare
and Insurance
This will improve care for all by relieving pressure
on the NHS. Those who rely on the NHS will enjoy
faster, better care. Independent healthcare capacity
will grow rapidly, providing competition and
reducing costs.


Fortunately there is no way such a policy will come into play yet, but it is good example of how such an idea will be spun. Come the next election, I could see it appearing in the Conservative Manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 04:22 AM

I’m astonished it hasn’t already appeared in the Tory manifesto. It’s their clear intention to privatise the NHS - hell, the latest Chancellor of the Exchequer wrote a book explaining how to do it!

They loathe any enterprise they can’t enrich themselves from and, for that reason only, they are hell-bent on privatising the NHS the same way they privatised so much else of our nationalised industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 07:44 AM

All this talk of the Conservative Party wanting to nationalise the NHS.
They've been in power for 14 years (as Labour so frequently remind us).
The NHS has not been nationalised.
Perhaps this is just a Labour 'scare story'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 08:00 AM

I am thinking more long term than that, Nigel.

Reform is putting a tax break for people with private health cover into their manifesto. Is it really too much of a stretch to think the Conservatives might do so next time if Reform are still a threat to them?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 24 - 09:25 AM

Two Tories on BBC's 'Politics Live' today, constantly talking over and shouting down the Labour rep and, rather than putting forward their own party's policies, just repeating their scare-mongering 'Tax rises under Labour' nonsense over and over and over again. The Labour guy, on the other hand, was calm, and was a shining example of how to conduct a discussion.

It's as plain as the nose on your face that they're scared shitless, they're desperate, and they know their corrupt, incompetent party of the greedy, and selfish is, quite rightly, absolutely fucked.

They've obviously realised that 'Stop The Boats' hasn't conned the voters the way 'Get Brexit Done' did - I wonder when, in their desperation, they'll come up with their next three-word slogan. It's got to be imminent...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 24 - 11:02 AM

I sincerely hope that you are right, Nigel, but suspect the worst. The defunding of the NHS seems to be a direct precurser to declaring that the NHS is not working and needs to be privatised. Just opinion of course but given the record of the last government I think it is a fear grounded in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 24 - 11:34 AM

The Tory Chancellor, a former Health Minister, co-authored a policy document setting out how to privatise the NHS. If that isn’t an indicator of their attitude to the NHS, I don’t know what is.

Some interesting reading here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jun 24 - 02:11 PM

I think I am correct in saying that Prescriptions used to be free, that Dental Care used to be free and that Eye Tests used to be free for all.

Before a pendant puts forward that some people still get these free, I am aware of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 24 - 05:37 PM

Care from cradle to grave certainly seems to have fell by the wayside.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:00 AM

I’m amused to hear the Lying Scottish Viper (for the benefit of Doug and Nigel, that’s Gove) on BBC Breakfast just now, squealing like a stuck pig about how dangerous it would be if Labour win a super-majority, and how they would be able to do whatever they liked without an effective opposition - ‘votes for 16-year-olds’ (gasp! shock! horror!), ‘tax rises’ (again!) - priceless, coming from the party who increased taxes to the highest level ever) - yadda yadda. That’s despite Labour’s fully costed manifesto.

Funny thing though, we never heard the Tories squealing like stuck pigs when they won a super-majority based on nothing more than a Johnson/Cummings three-word-slogan, did we?

They really are defecating building materials!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:18 AM

An item from the BBC 12.6.24

Voter confidence at record low, says report

"Trust and confidence in the UK’s politics and election system has never been worse, according to analysis by the electoral expert, Sir John Curtice.

His report for the National Centre for Social Research finds record numbers of voters saying they “almost never” trust governments to put country before party or politicians to tell the truth when in a tight corner.

“The public is as doubtful as it has ever been about the trustworthiness and efficacy of the country’s system of government and the people who comprise it,” Sir John says."

×+

Voter apathy and low turnouts are worrying. I think that the turnout for this coming election is not going to be great. Let's hope that they accept my 20 year old photo id when I go to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:26 AM

Voter confidence is low due to the corruption, lying and scandals that have beset the commons since 2019. The right wing media have exacerbated the situation by excusing the actions of the vile bunch of shysters with a "they are all the same" campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:52 AM

Our voting system does not help either. First past the post is fine if you just have 2 parties to choose from. With our present system we will most likely end up with a government that the majority of voters have not voted for. Even when we have had governments in the past with a 'super majority' of seats, the majority of voters will not have voted for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 04:29 AM

Thanks BWM. Much appreciated.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 04:45 AM

Absolutely my pleasure, Doug! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 04:34 AM

j k Rowling and labour, are her comments going to affect anyone here and how they vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 08:00 AM

She’s not a politician, she’s an individual, with her own views on all sorts of things - most of her views which I’ve heard about I agree with, a few I don’t. Why would one person’s personal beliefs affect how I vote?

FWIW, I’ve already voted, my vote was based on 77 years of experience, heavily influenced by the behaviour and utterances of political parties and individual politicians since approximately 2015.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 08:02 AM

…otherwise, I enjoyed her books very much, especially those published under her pseudonym, Robert Galbraith.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 02:46 AM

She is an individual with a large following she said she would not be voting labour, she may not affect how you vote but she may influence others,
I think that voting for a party that may improve trade treaties between uk and europe is the most important issue so she will not affect how i vote

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 03:04 AM

Do you vote in the UK or the RoI Dick? Just out of interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 03:29 AM

The Sandman wrote 'She is an individual with a large following she said she would not be voting labour, she may not affect how you vote but she may influence others,'

Meanwhile J K Rowling wrote 'An independent candidate is standing in my constituency who’s campaigning to clarify the Equality Act. Perhaps that’s where my X will have to go on July 4th. As long as Labour remains dismissive and often offensive towards women fighting to retain the rights their foremothers thought were won for all time, I’ll struggle to support them. The women who wouldn’t wheesht didn’t leave Labour. Labour abandoned them.'

J K Rowling - My article for The Times on Labour and women’s rights

++
Sometimes casting a vote comes down to a single issue. I have no doubt that there are other women who share Rowling's concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 04:07 AM

Heard this yesterday on BBC Radio 4

The City That Stayed at Home

"At the last general election, three of the four seats with the lowest turnout, where the lowest number of eligible people came out to vote, were in Hull.

Alex Forsyth sits down with people who stay at home on election day to find out why.

She begins in Hull East, the seat which had the lowest turnout in the UK at the last general election, visiting Marfleet, a ward with low turnout at local elections. She explores how a pattern of not voting is repeated in other parts of the city. Alex goes on to examine the complex reasons for not voting and speaks to those who believe key events in the city's history might provide part of the answer."

++
Not the most encouraging programme. I have the feeling that the turnout next week might not be great. I hope that I am wrong, as I do not think that low turnouts are a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 04:15 AM

Thanks for the PM Dick and I understand why you want to keep it private.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 09:27 AM

Voting if you live overseas

If you are a British or eligible Irish citizen living abroad who has previously lived in the UK or been registered to vote in the UK, you can register to vote in UK Parliamentary elections. 

A number of changes to voting from overseas now apply: 

You can register to vote if you previously lived in the UK but were not registered to vote. 

You can register to vote in the UK no matter how long ago you left or were last registered to vote.

Your overseas declaration is now valid for three years, lasting until 1 November in the third year after it takes effect (for example, if your declaration takes effect on 1 March 2024, it will expire on 1 November 2026).

You can now register online (not available in Northern Ireland). 

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 09:35 AM

Can someone please explain why someone who lives outside the UK should have any right to vote in UK elections?

I’ve opened a large packet of popcorn…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 10:15 AM

it is a reciprocal arrangement,BETWEEN ireland and uk, that existed before either joined the COmMON MARKET.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 10:23 AM

Backwoodsman
Details

The Common Travel Area (CTA) is a long-standing arrangement between the UK, the Crown Dependencies (Bailiwick of Jersey, Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Isle of Man) and Ireland that pre-dates both British and Irish membership of the EU and is not dependent on it.

Under the CTA, British and Irish citizens can move freely and reside in either jurisdiction and enjoy associated rights and privileges, including the right to work, study and vote in certain elections, as well as to access social welfare benefits and health services.

The UK and Irish governments signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) in May 2019 reaffirming our commitment to maintain the CTA, and the associated rights and privileges, in all circumstances. On signing the MoU, both governments released a Joint Statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 11:22 AM

But that’s not what I asked - my question was about the fairness (or, IMHO, the fairness) of people who have chosen to abandon the UK, and take up residence and, presumably, pay their taxes in another country being allowed to continue voting in UK elections.

And please don’t try to make this about you as you so often do - it’s SFA to do with you personally, it’s a genuine question about emigrants from this country in general.

Can anyone explain why it’s fair, because I don’t see it as such?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 11:23 AM

….(or, IMHO, the unfairness)…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 12:10 PM

BWM: Can someone please explain why someone who lives outside the UK should have any right to vote in UK elections?

One reason might be that they have a pension derived from working in the UK, and so have a valid interest in how this country is run.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 12:50 PM

Good point Nigel, something that hadn’t occurred to me. Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 02:18 PM

It is to do with me personally ,because i paid taxes in the uk and receive a uk pension, and i like many other taxpayers who live abroad have a valid interst in how the country is run.
like many others i pay tax on everything i buy,in the country i live in, and when i visit the uk pay tax on what i buy then.
i alsp pay direct interest tax on any savings i have in the country i live in, if i have any savings.
so i pay tax in two countries.That is fair IMO

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 11:48 PM

Assange release
Link Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/media/julian-assange
Explainer: who is Julian Assange and what are the details of his plea deal?

After five years in jail, Julian Assange is expected to plead guilty to a single charge that will allow him to walk free and return to Australia

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 24 - 02:19 AM

I think you could start a new thread on that, Dick. It is not Brexit or UK politics and will be lost here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Jun 24 - 03:42 PM

Sunak is back on his normal condescending form wittering on about secret plans this or secret plans that? When is he going to come clean about his secret plans to force people with long term health conditions into debilitating work.

With regards to welfare reforms (mostly claimed by people in work), why are their no proposals to make work equally debilitating for people without health conditions?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Jun 24 - 03:48 PM

Rwanda policy has reared its ugly head. Where is the tories porposal to round up racist and ne-n***s until they have proved to Rwandan authorities they have the right to return to the UK. Sunak is so pathetic, all that mouth piece is talking over everyone. Why isn't the presenter telling him to shut his mouth and wait his turn to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 24 - 04:49 AM

I was interested when the Reform leaflet popped through my door yesterday (not, not in that way!)

There is a convention with election material. I am from Southampton, so each candidate will say what their links to Southampton are, why they are the right choice and how the parties policies apply to Southampton. OK, there will be a lot of boiler-plate common to election material for all candidates, but it will at least attempt to show some relationship to the constituency. We will all have heard of some Conservative candidates going so far down this approach that there is no mention of their leader at all.

So that is what struck me about the Reform leaflet. Apart from a white rectangle where the name of the candidate and constituency were printed, there was no mention about the candidate or location at all. The leaflets appear to have all been printed at a central location with as little relevance to the candidate and location as the address of an Amazon parcel I get.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 24 - 04:59 AM

I didn’t even read the Reform UK leaflet that came through my letterbox. Like the Tory leaflet, it went straight in the bin.

And anyway, they were both too late - I’d already voted when they arrived, and not for either of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 Jun 24 - 11:29 AM

> I didn’t even read the Reform UK leaflet that came
> through my letterbox.

I'm convinced the only reason Herself reads such things is to stave off low blood pressure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 02:45 AM

It really is very galling to hear members of the party who themselves elected Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, the two worst Prime Ministers in living memory, now weaponising Keir Starmer’s support of his leader, Jeremy Corbyn, in the 2019 election. A real case of the pot calling the kettle black.

There really is no line below which the Tories will not stoop in their hopelessness and desperation, is there?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 03:36 AM

At least there is not long to go now BWM.

I have been fed up with a lot of the campaigning by all the parties. It was very noticeable when all the parties were questioned about their manifestos. They nearly all seemed to respond by attacking other parties manifestos rather than answer questions about their own.

I am just hoping that people will vote in this election.A low turnout is not good for any of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 03:46 AM

Re. Postal votes.

I was surprised to hear on BBC Radio 4 that in the last election 28% of the votes in Scotland were by post.

In the UK as a whole, 21% of the votes were by post in the last election.

On another matter, I mentioned earlier that there are 11 candidates standing in Dover & Deal. Anyone else here have more candidates than that? It does mean that there will be a lot more paper to be recycled.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 03:50 AM

So true, RD. But the Tories, in particular, have told barefaced lies, even when those lies are challenged by independent sources they’ve continued to peddle them. They have absolutely no shame.

Even our member here, who habitually defends the indefensible Tories, seems to have given up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 06:23 AM

Article by Marina Hyde in The Guardian sums it up well..

Take it on trust, Britain’s politicians beg voters. Trouble is, we all know they’re lying

I think that most of us vote in the hope that things will get better.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 06:48 AM

Good article - Thank you

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 11:54 AM

Just a couple of days to go. My ideal result would be Labour in but good representation from the other progressive parties to try and twist their arm for electoral reform. Not nuch chance I suppose but at least the most corrupt government in my memory should be reduced to ashes.

Anyone care to speculate as to what shape the UK will be in on Friday?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 12:15 PM

I see that there have been some problems for some people wishing to vote by post

From the BBC

Royal Mail denies postal vote backlog as concerns raised

I hope that there is a good turnout.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 01:11 PM

Trouble is, everyone is so pissed off with politics that they are reluctant to vote. Not surprising considering the performance of the last shower of shits. Sadly, the right wing rags are convincing some of the electorate that all politicians now act in the same way that the Tories have in the last few years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 01:38 PM

I think a lot of people have had a low opinion of politicians for quite a long while. I don't think any recent coverage has made much difference to that. You only have to read what some people think about their local council members. I am surprised that people are still prepared to take on the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 02:39 PM

I think we were tipped over the edge with all the lies in 2016. Compounded by the circus that was led by Bozo later.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 04:08 PM

Well the level of debate was very poor in 2016. People were voting to leave without knowing what the terms of leaving were going to be. That is what the main problem was.

I originally thought we would have to give it 5 years from 1.1.21 to see how things would work out. Due to Covid and Ukraine, I now think it will be 1.1.31 before we get a true picture. Even now the UK has not implemented all the import regulations that should be in force.

I did vote to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 05:34 PM

OMG. They have wheeled out the blonde buffoon. I think I'm going to be sick...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 05:38 PM

...and claiming Starmer will be a part time prime minister because he wants to spend Friday evenings with his family. They really are desperate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 01:13 AM

And so the Tories’ Gish Gallop continues apace…

Please doG, make it stop!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 02:18 AM

When Suella Braverman publicly throws in the towel, defends Reform UK, and attacks her own party for ‘not being Right-enough’, you know the Tories have had their day.

At this rate, there will be no Tory Party left. Or is that too much to hope for…?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 02:42 AM

Well if it was a choice between a Tory party or a Reform group/business, I know which I would prefer.

Does anyone here think that Labour will get over 50% of the vote tomorrow? I think there is a slim chance that they might but more than likely they will not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 03:41 AM

quote from the Economist Publication
This mega-poll finds that Labour is on track to win 465 of the 632 seats in England, Scotland and Wales, giving it the biggest majority since the second world war. Meanwhile, the ruling Conservative Party, which won 365 seats in 2019, is set to collapse to a mere 76, the fewest in its history.
Since the uk does not have PR it matters little what percent of the vote they get, but ti do think they will get 75 per of the 632 seats, my prediction is between 450 and 470 seats

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 03:49 AM

the bookies have labour to win over 418 seats at 1 to3 on.
450 to 490 seats 11 to 10

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 04:06 AM

”Well if it was a choice between a Tory party or a Reform group/business, I know which I would prefer.”

Me too, RD, but the problem is that Braverman and others are working their butts off to move the Tory Party ever-closer to Reform UK’s position in almost everything. She and they seem to be laying the blame for the predicted Labour victory in the GE on the Tories being too ‘centrist’, not ‘Right enough’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 04:07 AM

Bugger! Try again…

”Well if it was a choice between a Tory party or a Reform group/business, I know which I would prefer.”

Me too, RD, but the problem is that Braverman and others are working their butts off to move the Tory Party ever-closer to Reform UK’s position in almost everything. She and they seem to be laying the blame for the predicted Labour victory in the GE on the Tories being too ‘centrist’, not ‘Right enough’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: G-Force
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 04:12 AM

Politician speaks the truth, shock, horror!!!

A tory cabinet minister reckons Labour are going to win.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 05:28 AM

I can't say I fully understand why there is a fuss about postal votes today. Given there must be few people who expect mail to be collected and delivered reliably within a day or two. The fuss should have been a week ago, shouldn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 07:01 AM

It will be the Tory media trying trumpolitics. They were robbed because of a postal vote swindle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 07:21 AM

My postal voting pack arrived over a week ago, and my voting slip went back the next day. No ‘post problem’ here.

This is easily the worst GE Campaign I remember in my lifetime. From Labour, airy-fairy policy announcements (although the lack of detail may well be deliberate, to prevent a Tory hijack), and from the Tories, zero policies, just lie upon lie upon lie about Labour.

I wanted to vote Green but, in my constituency, there’s no chance that the Green candidate will win, and the most important thing AFAIC is to get rid of our safe-seat, long-sitting Tory MP.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 07:46 AM

It is just not the Tory media reporting concerns about problems with some postal votes. Some councils in Scotland have had some issues, not helped by their school holidays starting which might also increase demand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 11:40 AM

I see that The Sun has come out in favour of Labour, if somewhat reluctantly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 11:47 AM

I have a strong feeling in my water that they might be trying to make Labour voters think it’s a done deal and not bother going to the polls. I wouldn’t put anything past that rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 12:25 PM

I think most people would rather not have the support of the Sun anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 12:33 PM

They just want to able to say that it was The Sun wot won it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 01:27 AM

i hope Corbyn gets elected

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 03:10 AM

It seems a bit early to be predicting the next election rather than today's, but in some ways that is my greater concern. Labour will have to ensure over the next term that people *feel^ better off and that is not GDP, or NHS queue statistics or inflation rates or immigration numbers. All those play into the feeling, but it is the feeling that matters in the end. If people enter the next election feeling hopeful, Labour will be granted the second term they have said throughout they will need.

If not, I think we could be in "a plague on both your houses" territory and one of the smaller parties this time will get it in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 09:47 AM

Article in The Guardian

Association of Electoral Administrators calls for new timeline for postal votes and powers to investigate reports of disfranchisement

Postal vote delays: UK election organisers say rules should be changed

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 11:26 AM

I hope everyone got out to vote!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 11:30 AM

We are still have several hours left when we could, SRS, but I expect most people on the thread have.

I can tell you I did, my wife did, next door neighbours on both sides have, and someone who came to help in the gardening did, as her daughter (who is 18 and was very excited as this was her first.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 11:36 AM

I have to say I don't understand why there are so few places you can vote in US elections. For most of the UK there is a polling station within a few minutes of your house. A quick search suggests there are 35,500 of them in the UK.   You have to be getting to very remote areas before there isn't a polling station moderately close (assuming you can drive.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 11:36 AM

Yep I did. My 20 year old photo id was accepted without comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 11:43 AM

I did have to walk a mile to my polling station. When I got there I had to request a seat while I read through the 11 names on the ballot paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 11:48 AM

Mrs G got an email from our Conservative MP, Julian Smith, today. She has written to him about various topics so she will be on his mailing list. Talk about desperate. Not one single mention of any manifesto policies. Not one single positive thing to say about hos owm party. Just scare stories about how bad things will be if Labour get in. Is this what politics has become?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 11:54 AM

I agree a walk is quite a way to walk for many people, but it is nothing much in a car, hence my 'assuming you can drive'.

Even so, we don't get queues to compare with some places in the US

Again, a quick web search suggests that on average each polling station deals with 1.300-ish voters. Allowing for some remote places with a lot fewer electors, one dealing with 4,000 must be fairly rare.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 11:55 AM

I agree a MILE is quite a way to walk...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 12:04 PM

The polling station used to be in a school half a mile away. In recent years they moved it to the Railway Club which is a mile away.

It was a pleasant day and I enjoyed the walk there and then back into town to spend a few hours in the pub.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 12:12 PM

^^^ OPEN INVITATION ***

At the election before last, Steve and I spent a long time commentating on the overnight results as they came in. I am out this evening until maybe 11:30pm, and then expect to be up watching until maybe 4 or 5.

If anyone wants to chat, we can do it here, unless someone has a better recommendation for a chat system we should use instead. If so, put the names or links here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 01:18 PM

On my morning walk this morning (~3 miles) I passed two polling stations. I voted almost two weeks ago by post.

We’ve received two communications from our long-time-sitting Tory MP and, like Dave’s experience, no word on Tory policies, just propaganda about how awful it would be under a Labour government, and how much we would have to pay in extra taxes. What a poile o’ shoite!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 01:48 PM

Several states here, including my original home state, have voting by mail and that produces a high response. This state where I live now is run by a GOP governor who wants to discourage turnout so I have to write to the county registrar every year to request that all ballots be sent to me. Only those who meet certain criteria can vote by mail (over 65 being one.) But I write, I get the ballots, and I vote. The nearest polling place is about 6 blocks from my house. There used to be a lot more, the reduction is again the result of the GOP constriction on voting ease.

Good luck getting the results you want. Too bad too many people didn't take that Brexit vote seriously or it might not have passed. Lesson learned, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 02:14 PM

Thanks Stilly. Nice to see interest from across the pond and spot on about the Brexit vote.

I'll stop up till after the exit polls but won't stay till silly o'clock. Even though my eldest lad is a candidate!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 03:00 PM

Where are our resident Tories BTW? I am genuinely interested in what they have to say. Are there any positive selling points or is it all just "we are better than them"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 03:26 PM

"Good luck getting the results you want. Too bad too many people didn't take that Brexit vote seriously or it might not have passed. Lesson learned, eh?"

72.21% of registered voters turned out to vote. That was a higher percentage than your last presidential election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 05:13 PM

It's what they did with their votes. I read that quite a few people voted "for" as a lark - thinking it couldn't possibly pass. The equivalence to that nonsense is voting for third party candidates here. Anyone who votes for the Kennedy name (no one in the Kennedy family takes him seriously, they've known about his problems with blending truth and fiction much of his life) is throwing out a vote that can actually make a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 08:35 PM

On my morning walk this morning (~3 miles) I passed two polling stations. I voted almost two weeks ago by post.

I realise that some people who have mobility problems, other commitments on the day, or may be away from home, would need a postal vote. As none of these seem to apply to you, BWM, I would be interested to know why you chose a postal vote over voting in person.

I quite like being part of the event on the day. I suppose it makes me feel a bit more involved. I have only had a postal vote once, for the Brexit referendum, but that was because I was away on holiday on the day.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:59 AM

Corbyn elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 02:08 AM

LABOUR LOOK LIKE APPROX 419 SEATS

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 02:46 AM

I dunno about BWM Doug but I went postal when they brought in the need for photo ID. I do have ID but disagreed with the principle.

Generally feeling good about the result. Apart from the loathsome Farage. The honourable member for the 18th century (Rees-Mogg) losing almost makes up for that.

Hopefully we can get some honest politics now, if not massive changes in how the country is run

My lad got nearly 1% of the vote as an independent and did what he intended :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 02:49 AM

Looking at the numbers of votes cast by party, it’s pretty clear that it’s less a case of Labour ‘winning’ the election, more a case of the Tories losing. The Tories have been committing a form of slow Hara-kiri since 2016 and, although some former Tory voters switched to Labour, they appear to have hæmorrhaged votes to the Lib-Dems and the loathsome Reform UK party,

Labour have done the easy part of the trick by achieving a majority. The difficult part remains to be performed over the next five, possibly ten, years - reversing the huge damage done over the past fourteen years to the UK, and to the ordinary man and woman in the street, by the Party of Greed and Selfishness.

IMHO, of course, and YMMV.

@DMcG - Mrs Backwoodsperson and I have had a postal vote for years now, we applied one year when we were on holiday at election time, and we’ve never seen a reason to revert to in-person voting - postal voting is so convenient. If on-line voting ever becomes a ‘thing’ (doubtful, I know) we’ll be amongst the first to register for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 03:23 AM

Labour have won the election.
The other factor, not mentioned by BWM that has affected labour, is the pro palestine candidates.Leicester south is an example

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 04:11 AM

No Tory presence at all in Wales now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 04:21 AM

Kent Online

"Labour have taken the coastal constituency of Dover and Deal with a majority of over 7,000 votes.

Mike Tapp received 18,914 votes seeing off the Reform challenge in second with 11,355 while the Conservatives came in third with 10,370."

"Voter turnout has been confirmed as 63%, down from 66.4% at the last election in 2019."

"In Kent, Labour have won 11 seats, the Conservatives have kept hold of six and the Lib Dems have gained one.

It means the Tories have lost in 10 seats in the county they previously held - and even came third in Dover, with Reform finishing second.

At the 2019 general election, Conservative Natalie Elphicke was elected with a majority of more than 12,000.

However, Ms Elphicke shocked the political world by defecting to the Labour Party in May, just weeks before the election was called, despite being considered firmly on the right of the Tory party."

++

I guess my vote made all the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 04:28 AM

Very sad, although not entirely surprised, that Reform UK have succeeded here in the Backwoods, getting the obnoxious Tice into first place in the Brexit Capital of Britain - Boston and Skegness. My friends in Boston are appalled.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 04:40 AM

From the BBC

"The BBC is predicting that turnout will be 60% across the UK as a whole. This will be the second lowest turnout ever in a UK election since 1885, with only 2001 being lower at 59%

Vote share

Labour has around 34% share of the vote across the UK and the Conservatives 24%.

While the Liberal Democrats are expected to have the third highest number of seats, it is Reform who are currently in third place by share of the vote.

However, Reform have found it difficult to convert votes into seats, and the party has only four MPs returned so far, including party leader Nigel Farage in Clacton."

++

The turnout is disappointing. No doubt some of that might be down to people thinking Labour were going to win anyway, so there was no need to vote. I just wish the turnout was higher. I don't think it is healthy for up to 40% of people not to bother voting.

Based on these results I don't think Labour will be thinking too much about changing the voting system.

Labour have the chance to make a difference to the country. It will not be easy. I always live in hope that things will get better.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 04:55 AM

Just got up after watching until 5am.

Although I am pleased at the size of Labour's win, I think a comment by Nadhim Zahawi that the results are built on sand has a lot of wisdom. Come the next election, the anti-Conservative factor will be much reduced, and the voting will be based on what has been achieved. Inevitably, because of the finance restrictions and where we are starting from, it is going to be a long slog, and so Labour will also lose those who had unrealistic ideas of what could be chosen. Then, inevitable, as lot of them seats are on comparatively slim majorities.

Added to which we have a Conservative party that needs to sort out how it will respond to Reform, who will be gleeful at these results. Labour, meanwhile, will I hope realise that you cannot outbid Farage on immigration: cut it to a tenth of what is it and stop all the boats and Farage will still be beating the "Too many immigrants" drum. So somehow our other Labour needs to draw the teeth of the immigration issue and get it out of the conversation while at least Reform and possibly Conservatives will be trying to keep it prominent. Not to mention that Farage in his acceptance speech said he was coming for Labour.

I am very hopeful of what can be achieved over the next few months, and as I said the key will be people feeling progress is being made, but how both Labour and the Conservatives react to the size of the Reform vote will be critical.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 08:24 AM

There is a lot for them to do but Starmer, for all I have said, does seem efficient in achieving his goals. Too far to the right for my tastes but let us hope this does centre the political spectrum somewhat.

There has been a lot of talk about Reform taking a huge share of the vote but, in terms of seats, the LibDems have fared far better and the Greens have equalled Farage's neo-nazis. I think the Tories will now be in a quandry. Do they move further right and try to out xenophobe Reform or do they pull back to the centre and aim for the LibDem losses?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 08:32 AM

I agree that what the Conservatives decide to to will be critical. The do need to remember that they cannot 'outFarage Farage.' If they decide to adopt his stance, I think even more will leak from them to Reform.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 09:08 AM

what about another referendum

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 10:32 AM

I see in my news this morning that Labor won "in a landslide" but with lower voter turnout. (So it would have been even bigger if more people voted, one hopes). What an elegant concession speech Sunak gave. We hope to return to a world of civil political behavior soon. (But wait - Farage was elected to Parliament - perhaps I write too soon. What a boor.)

The New York Times has been particularly busy raining on everyone's parade lately. An opinion piece this morning says Britain’s Election Is Not the Centrist Triumph It Appears to Be but tucked inside is this:

The Conservatives deserved the rebuke they got. They were in power for 14 years, with little to show for it other than a damaging exit from the European Union. After winning by a landslide in 2019, the party burned through three prime ministers, lurching from the feckless populism of Boris Johnson to the reckless 49-day libertarianism of Liz Truss to the uninspiring technocracy of Rishi Sunak.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 10:36 AM

Very, very unlikely indeed. So unlikely as to be not worth even considering the possibility for one nano-second. Starmer, and Labour, seem to want an end to the conflict and divisiveness we’ve been subjected to in our politics since 2015, why would they rake the Brex-Shit up now?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 10:37 AM

I guess you don't know too much about British politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 10:44 AM

Having lived here the past 77 years, I think I know as much as most, and possibly more than some.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 10:46 AM

My comment was in response to the post from SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:04 AM

"what about another referendum"

About what?

The UK is not set up for referendums, as we all saw after the Brexit vote.

We vote for MPs. They do not have to follow any party line. They are not obliged to agree with any referendum. As voters we cannot do anything about it until the next election.

Parties do not controL MPs. Once elected they can do as they please.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:16 AM

about what? rentering Europe.
the uk is set up for referendums, There have been 3 since 1975.
Parties do control Their MPS they use people called Whips

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:30 AM

We can't get at the NYT article, Stilly. Can you post the gist for us please?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:42 AM

Question from Rain Dog on the US presidential thread

"Yesterday the people of the UK voted for moderation in politics."

Seriously?

We have ended up with a party that is too far right for your tastes because a lot of people have voted for a far from moderate party.

Yes, seriously. We have booted out the showboating and stupid antics of the Eton Mess caused by Cameron, Johnson and the rest over the overprivileged crew. My comment about too far right was referring to Starmer but the Labour party is still based on the left wing principles of caring for those in need. It is my hope that ot will remain left of centre with repesentation from both sides of the party keeping excesses from either side in check. Reform took votes from the Tories but I do not believe that is how Labour won. If Reform had not have been there, the votes still would have cast aganst the Tories - Just in a different direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:49 AM

”My comment was in response to the post from SRS”

Apologies RD, it appeared straight after mine, so I assumed (wrongly) you were replying to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 12:17 PM

"about what? rentering Europe.
the uk is set up for referendums, There have been 3 since 1975.
Parties do control Their MPS they use people called Whips"

I guess you don't know too much about UK politics.

Here in Dover & Deal we have just elected a Labour MP
When parliament next meets there is nothing to stop that MP deciding to join any other party. The whips have no control. They can only threaten a MP with stopping or hindering his advancement in the party. The MP is under no obligation to take any notice of the whips.

Meanwhile as voters we will have to wait until the next election to take action against the MP.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:08 PM

There is no reason why there should not be another referendum on rejoining Europe.
The role of whips has absolutely nothing to do with whether there should be another referendum on Europe.
I know as much as you do about UK politics,I lived in the uk from 1951 t0 1990
Anybody that states that the uk is not set up for referendums[is clearly ill informed when there have been 3 since.1975 two of them concerning respectively the common market and the second leaving Europe.
You may not like the result of the last referendum [neither do I], but they happen and can happen again, here is some info
The Government of the United Kingdom has also to date held ten major referendums within the constituent countries of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on issues of devolution, sovereignty and independence; the first such referendum was the 1973 Northern Ireland border poll and, as of 2023, the most recent is the 2014 Scottish independence referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:12 PM

I, for one, do not want rule by referendum. People are both ill informed and easily swayed when it comes to making decisions that affect all our lives. The last one was a prime example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:12 PM

In reply to Dave the Gnome.

Here in Kent Labour gained 10 new MPs. I would say that it is unlikely they would have managed that without the Reform vote. Even here in Dover where Labour won with a majority of 7,000 (better than most of the other gains in Kent) it was still less than the combined Reform/Conservative vote.

The one standing Labour MP in Kent retained her seat. The sad fact is the Labour party probably wished that she lost.

Party politics, huh?

As I said earlier, I voted Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:16 PM

Sandman you simply do not understand UK politics.

MPs are under no obligation to agree with a referendum result. That is what happened in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:19 PM

As I said, Rain Dog, I believe that without Reform, the Tory vote would have just gone to LibDem, Green or other. I don't think that would have impacted the Labour vote. But maybe you are right so we can just agree to differ! Thanks for a good natured disagreement anyway:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:28 PM

In reply to Sandman



Was the EU referendum advisory?

"In the end, the argument comes down to different visions for democracy in the United Kingdom. The conventional view is that ultimate political power lies with Parliament. The High Court came to its conclusion that the referendum was not legally binding guided by “basic constitutional principles of parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy”.

In a parliamentary democracy, as barrister Rupert Myers bluntly puts it, “the people are not sovereign”.

That’s why Nigel Farage, for example, accepts that the referendum result was technically advisory only, but says that “I would now wish to see constitutional change to make referendums binding”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:34 PM

I do understand uk politics, a Referendum can take place, but why would lABOUR MPS with a MAJORITY and liberals mps who are pro European oppose a referendum on rejoining Europe, in practical terms you are talking bollocks

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 01:52 PM

It was not in the manifesto. Why do you think that was?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 02:55 PM

Is a Referendum necessary for the government to begin negotiations for our re-admission to the EU? I can’t find anything to confirm that it would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 03:08 PM

I see even suggesting rejoining the EU as being too divisive at the moment. A better option would be to build closer ties and work toward a long term goal of eventually rejoining on the right terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 03:45 PM

I completely agree, Dave. And I think the new government will have more than enough on its plate trying to deal with the disaster-area the Tories have left. But, as the subject of Referendums had been brought up, I just wondered if one would be necessary. I don’t think so, but not sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 04:32 PM

Absolutely unnecessary. By voting for our MPs we explicitly give them the right to make major decisions about the running of the country. It is to be hoped that they will get the best expert advice to make these decisions but, sadly, that does not always happen. Still, I would trust the MP with access to all the facts over the bloke in the pub who read about it on Facebook any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 05:00 PM

Amen to that, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 07:36 PM

Was the EU referendum advisory?

"In the end, the argument comes down to different visions for democracy in the United Kingdom. The conventional view is that ultimate political power lies with Parliament. The High Court came to its conclusion that the referendum was not legally binding guided by “basic constitutional principles of parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy”.

Cameron, PM at that time, said that he would accept the decision of a referendum.

The law may say that a referendum was not binding, but the government of the time agreed to be bound by it.
Admittedly Cameron, on getting the 'wrong' result, then jumped ship!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 02:45 AM

In a social media post, Mr Trump wrote: "Congratulations to Nigel Farage on his big WIN of a Parliament Seat Amid Reform UK Election Success.

"Nigel is a man who truly loves his Country."

Need I say more?

I truly despair at times. How can people be so blind as to not see through the facade of being "one of the people" that the slimy, grinning toad projects? Maybe it's me. Sigh...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 03:15 AM

A better option would be to build closer ties and work toward a long term goal of eventually rejoining on the right terms."
Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 03:43 AM

Referenda: They've always been a bolt-on to the UK's body politic. I believe the first one in the UK was called by Harold Wilson to confirm Britain's EU membership; comment at the time was that he'd done so to go over the heads of [some of?] his Cabinet, who disliked the Common Market.

Please correct me if I'm misremembering. It's raining here, and the rising humidity is causing my brain to throw parity errors.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:01 AM

Good (and accurate I think) piece on UK referendums in Wikipedia. Too long for the standard link maker so C&P it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=Only%20three%20referendums%20have%20ever,and%20became%20the%20European%20Union.

Interesting item in it. I suspect it could be the only thing that Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher could agree on :-)

"In May 1945 the then Prime Minister Winston Churchill suggested holding a referendum over the question of extending the life of his wartime Coalition until victory was won over Japan. However, Deputy Prime Minister Clement Attlee refused, saying "I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum, which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism." In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher also quoted Clement Attlee that referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues" as Napoleon, Mussolini and Hitler had exploited their use in the past."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:17 AM

Dave, this ‘Simple Linkifier’, written by a Mudcat Member whose name I’ve forgotten, makes creating Blickies simpler, and it takes care of URLs which are too long for the standard ‘Make a link (“blue clicky”)” link.

I use it all the time - it’s dead easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:22 AM

In a 1975 pamphlet Prime Minister Harold Wilson said: "I ask you to use your vote. For it is your vote that will now decide. The Government will accept your verdict." The pamphlet also said: "Now the time has come for you to decide. The Government will accept your decision — whichever way it goes."
Peter Shore was a cabinet minster in Wilson government who opposed Europe, There were other cabinet minsters too who opposed Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:27 AM

So Harold overode cabinet minsters WHO WERE MPS to press for joiniing Europe.
It appears I am better informed about uk politics, than our correspondent from Dover and Deal

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:31 AM

@Dave - here ya go!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 05:46 AM

The 1975 vote was not whether to Join the EEC, as it was then, but whether to remain in it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:00 AM

Thanks BWM - I was aware of it but had forgotten due to old age, poverty and the Tories :-D

Bookmarked now

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:11 AM

The United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum was a public vote that took place on 5 June 1975, on whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Communities which was principally the European Economic Community (the Common Market) as it was known at the time.
it was not about staying in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:14 AM

The 1973 enlargement of the European Communities was the first enlargement of the European Communities (EC), now the European Union (EU). Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom (UK) acceded to the EC on 1 January 1973.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:18 AM

No problem Dave. I find it really useful, and very easy to use. I wish I could remember, and thank, the member who wrote it - maybe Dave-Ro?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:19 AM

Seven members of the Cabinet, including Tony Benn and Michael Foot, favoured withdrawal.
Wilson overode them

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:25 AM

I am confused, Dick. You said (06 Jul 24 - 04:27 AM) "Harold overode cabinet minsters WHO WERE MPS to press for joiniing Europe", (emphasis on "joining") implying that Wilson called the referendum to JOIN the EEC (As it was) That was NOT, as I said, the purpose of the referendum in 1975. You then go on to point out exactly the same thing that I said. It was whether to remain in the EEC. Was your first statement a mistake?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:49 AM

Yes, I should have said for remaining in the common market. we all know the uk joined The Common Market or EEC, NOT the EU in 1973

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 07:07 AM

Seven members of the Cabinet, including Tony Benn and Michael Foot, favoured withdrawal.
Wilson overode them

No, as others have made clear, Wilson did not override them. He gave the UK public the choice to agree with either them or him.
A totally different way of dealing with the matter. If the public had agreed with Benn & Foot, Wilson had committed to accept the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 07:55 AM

he out manouvered the members of his cabinet, unlike Cameron he knew what he was doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 10:36 AM

Thanks Dick. Glad we cleared that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 03:41 PM

Well, Labour have only been in power one day. The Rwanda nonsense has been cancelled and England are in the Euro semi finals. What more can people want? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 03:50 PM

Southgate and Starmer seem to have something in common, both play a boring game but win

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:45 PM

:-D Nice one Dick

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 24 - 04:16 AM

Well, Labour have only been in power one day... What more can people want?

What they seem to be doing, namely appointing ministers with some knowledge of the subject of their departments. For the most of last 14 years, ministerial appointments have been about party management, which is how we ended up with something like 10 Education ministers in 14 years, with them tending to be in place for shorter and shorter terms. That was a pattern of all the ministries.

One newspaper had a moan that the ministerial appointments we just removing the 'shadow' for ministers. Obviously, the writer wanted excitement rather than people who had actually spent time thinking about the relevant ministry.

I am particularly taken with the appointment of Patrick Vallance to a a role in the Department of Science, and James Timpson to a role in prisons.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 24 - 05:58 AM

Good to see that Starmer has filled the Cabinet to a great extent with the people who had covered their ‘shadow’ briefs whilst in opposition, and thus have experience in their areas - in contrast to, for instance, Johnson’s weeding out of those who disagreed with him in 2019. Country first, party second - way to go.

And I strongly approve of the appointment of James Timpson - a man who has spent a lot of time in prisons, working with prisoners on rehabilitation projects, and who actively employs ex-prisoners in his shops.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 05:21 AM

From 2016 (when it was topical)

It still seems topical now:

BOJO (ET TU GOVE)
Nigel Parsons 2016
Tune: Bobby Shaftoe

Boris Johnson, Dearie me.
Oh dear, the ignominy.
Will Gove prosper? Wait and see.
(But) Boris has been shafted!

   Boris Johnson, bright & fair.
   Can't control his shock of hair.
   Like a cuddly teddy bear.
   Bonnie Boris Johnson

Boris fought against Remain.
Thought he might the 'top job' gain.
Gove reneged, and, oh the pain.
Boris has been shafted!

   Boris Johnson, bright & fair.
   Can't control his shock of hair.
   Like a cuddly teddy bear.
   Bonnie Boris Johnson

Michael Gove has gone astray,
Let's support Theresa May.
Possibly he'll rue the day -
That he shafted Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 12:19 PM

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 01:49 PM

I've just read this in John Crace's latest column:
Still, I suppose there are a lot of unemployed ex-Tory MPs, so maybe they might like to retrain for the construction industry. I can just see Liz Truss as a plasterer. Jacob Rees-Mogg as a chippy.
when I suddenly recalled those posters suggesting ballet dancers retrain in IT.

I might see if I can mock up an equivalent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 02:54 AM

Dave the Gnome posted in the American Presidential thread:

"Far right kicked out in the UK
Far right kicked out in France
Come on, USA. Give us the hat trick! :-)"

Probably more accurate to say that the Far Right did not get in in France, at least not yet. It remains to be seen how things are going to work out there.

I would not call the Tory party Far Right, especially this last government which had ended up with some policies which were not the usual Tory fare.

I don't think the Far Right has been kicked out in the UK. The vote for the Right was split between the Tories & Reform. We are in an unhealthy position, especially when you consider nearly 40% did not vote.

Labour are in a position to be able to improve things and hopefully convince more people to vote for them at the next election. It will not be easy, especially dealing with the immigration issue. There are no easy answers for dealing with that, as can be seen by how other countries are trying to deal with it.

I wish Labour the best of luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 03:27 AM

It was a bit of hyperbole to gee up our American friends :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 09:53 AM

> I can just see Liz Truss as a plasterer. Jacob Rees-Mogg
> as a chippy.

Slapdash is what they were. I wouldn't trust either of them with any building-trade tool.

.... I wonder if they were responsible for the front room in our first house: every wall leaned slightly in or out, and there was not one corner of the room that contained a true right-angle. The entire row of houses was built on a slope, and they were only kept from sliding down it by the tops of the porches, like a row of drunks propping each other up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 10:33 AM

Did they lean to the right? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 05:20 PM

In the finals now. Starmer is doing great :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Jul 24 - 01:25 PM

Mr. Control Freak starts to make his move.

Nigel Farage stirs tensions in Reform UK as he ousts deputies

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jul 24 - 02:19 AM

Article in The Guardian today.

Labour divided over calls to scrap first past the post after landslide win

"Sandy Martin, a former Labour MP who now chairs the Labour Campaign for Electoral Reform, says thinking about a move to PR should be a priority for the party, despite the way it benefited so handsomely from the current system.

“It would only take Reform and the Conservatives to unite and they might have a majority on the same scale we had this year,” he said. “But under PR, Labour would most likely be able to form a government quite comfortably with the Liberal Democrats or the Greens, and this would be preferable to a Conservative-Reform government.”

As well as self-interest, Martin said, first past the post felt increasingly inappropriate when only 58% of the vote share went to the main two parties: “In England we now have five parties, and in Scotland and Wales you have six. You can’t run a first past the post system – where one party is basically trying to beat the other party – when you’ve got five or six parties to play with.”"

++

Probably unlikely to see any changes during this government's term of office.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 24 - 09:35 AM

I think you are right with your last line, Rain Dog, but it is a step in the right direction as far as I am concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jul 24 - 11:02 AM

I am afraid Proportional Representation always looks less attractive to those who got a big majority under FPTP ...

I was interested to read in the King's Speech that "Legislation will be brought forward to introduce a duty of candour for public servants.”

That remains to be seen. I am strongly reminded how Blair wanted to introduce Freedom of Information for the same reason, got the Green paper, realised that it could lats of problems for the government and set Jack Straw to produce the White Paper who cut a lot of it out. Even so, I have heard comments that he regrets the idea.

Much more recently, Sunak promised to bring integrity to the government, and we know how well that lasted.

I hope Starmer follows through with strict rules on 'duty of candour', but it would not surprise me if this went the way of similar ambitious ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 24 - 08:19 AM

Some interesting reading in the Hallet Covid enquiry findings. Nothing surprising though seeing as the whole pandemic was managed by a set of spivs out to get what they could and a prime minister who was only interested in furthering his own career and those of his cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 05:52 AM

Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.”
— Bertrand Russell, Sceptical Essays (1928), Essay, XIII: Freedom in Society, p. 103

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 07:16 AM

It is one of those classic experiments - to prove once and for all how bad the pandemic was handled is to have another, equally virulent and lethal one, but get the response right. even then this des not eliminate the covid pandemic providing the learning curve as we cannot revert back to the same experiential baseline.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 06:29 AM

I was unsure which thread to post this message in. It is about the Post Office/Horizon inquiry. I have posted on this topic in the Belief in Technology thread. I thought this thread might be more appropriate.

It is from the Nick Wallis blog Post Office Scandal.

Ed Davey: Chocolate Teapot


It is a fine example of how the Government and Civil Service acts at times.

A word of warning for those of you who are not too fond of Tories. A well known Tory MP makes repeated attempts to get answers on behalf of a constituent to no avail. Sometimes those we are not fond of do try.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 08:31 AM

Article from The Press Gazette June 25th, on Tristan Kirk

The Evening Standard‘s Tristan Kirk has been fighting a lone campaign to shine a light on nearly a decade of secret criminal trials.

"Kirk, who is the Evening Standard’s courts correspondent, won the Private Eye-run Paul Foot Award this month for his work exposing how the “single justice procedure” for Covid-related offences had created a “conveyor belt” justice system and led to miscarriages of justice.

Under the single justice procedure, introduced in 2015 for those accused of minor crimes, there was is no longer an automatic hearing. Instead, a letter sent to the accused specifies the dates between which their case will be dealt with by a magistrate and features a form they can use to respond to the charge.

The form has three options: the accused may say they are guilty and do not want a hearing, that they are guilty and they do want a hearing or that they are innocent, which automatically results in a hearing.

If there is no hearing, there is nothing for reporters to sit in on, meaning decisions are made with little, if any, scrutiny."

++

It is another example of how in this modern age we are getting less coverage of court, council proceedings etc. Not a healthy state of affairs.

I used to look at Tristan Kirk's Twitter page before Elon Musk limited access to non-users like myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 24 - 06:05 AM

I started a thread about the Southport tragedy and subsequent riots but things have progressed now and the right wing thuggery needs to be called out here instead.

It is despicable how these thugs are using the tragedy for their own nefarious purposes. Yet I am seeing people on Faceache trying to justify their actions as patriotic and even necessary because "Muslims are taking over the country" or we have a "2 tier police system which favours immigrants". I have even seen an erstwhile poster on here (long since banned) saying that the vile Yaxley-Lennon is right and proves that the government are hiding things from us.

WTF has happened to people? Where has common sense and decency gone? Rhetorical of course as I know that the vast majority of people fully understand that the right wing shite is just that - right wing shite.

Trouble is that while the nicotoned stained man-toad, Farage, and his cronies are given the facade of respectability, we are going to see more of this. Maybe it is a good thing that Reform UK is supporting the "protesters". As long as they do there is a chance that they will be classed as a terrorist organisation and banned from holding office. We can but hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 24 - 07:00 AM

Here is an example of how gullible people are -

Go to the Twitter page of Tommy Robinson, see the videos, listen to his documentaries. This man is NO racist, but he stands firm against muslim terrorists. Don't you? He knows more about the cult of Islam than most. He's the man who was telling the police for years about the muslim grooming gangs...and police ignored, leaving thousands of young girls to be raped by these evil men. Watch his doc. on the evil 'Hope Not Hate' group who malign him all the time. They are truly wicked, paying people to tells lies about those they seek to destroy. He has repeatedly called for peaceful protests.

This person genuinely believes this. There is little hope for us while the hard of thinking are allowed to post their vile nonsense. Social media sites need to step up to the mark and fact check posts like real news outlets do.

Talking about fact checking, have you seen "10p Lee" Anderson's latest faux pas? Would be hilarious if it wasn't for the fact that this idiot has a say in running our lives :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Aug 24 - 05:31 PM

Its a very weird situation. Riots on Weymouth seafront tonight. Just watching it on telly. Most of the rioters look well struck in years. Used to they would blame this stuff on teenagers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 02:34 AM

Some very dark humour around, concerning the rioting and looting currently happening around the UK on the pretext of protesting the murder of three children in Southport.

In one cartoon yesterday, a young boy asks his father, “What did you do in support of the three murdered girls, Dad?”. Dad’s response - “I broke into Gregg’s and looted a Steak-bake, son”.

The likes of Farage, 30p-Lee, and Yaxley-Lennon have a great deal to answer for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 03:16 AM

one of the classic ways to divide society is to divide and rule
whipping up anti immigrant feeling falls in to this category imo
.Why was someone who was mentally disturbed allowed to be unsupervised and attack and murder.
Farage, 30p-Lee, and Yaxley-Lennon are not to blame for that, but i agree their behaviour in whipping up racial hatred is despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 05:18 AM

The only thing we currently know about his mental state is that he is diagnosed as having an autistic spectrum disorder. There are currently nearly half a million people with that diagnosis in the UK and it is estimated that between half and one million are on the autistic spectrum but undiagnosed. Do you think that they all should be supervised, Dick?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 05:20 AM

”Farage, 30p-Lee, and Yaxley-Lennon are not to blame for that, but i agree their behaviour in whipping up racial hatred is despicable.”

And they are far from being alone in that. There are plenty of other well-known figures doing precisely the same - including at least one challenger for the position of Tory Party Leader. They are all utterly reprehensible and despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 05:21 AM

A-a-a-and…..700.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 08:55 AM

Sorry - I just realised I shortchanged averyone before by referring to 30p Lee as 10p Lee. Mind you, it probably reflects his value to humanity better...

Just saw a brilliant post on Faceache. The answer to anyone complaining about a "two tier" police system is to say, yes it is. Just ask any young people of colour about stop and search :-)

I would go further and wonder why the police who, quite rightly, quickly clamped down on the Asian grooming gangs were so willing to ignore the complaints about the priveledged white grooming and child abuse going on amongst white TV celebrities and MPs for so long.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 09:44 AM

…or even to question how the then Home Secretary, who went on to become Prime Minister (albeit a pretty poor one) managed to conveniently ‘lose’ the 149 files containing details of the cases against those white TV celebrities and MPs.

Funny, that…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 10:23 AM

I was just wondering how Farage is going to answer all the questions that other (IE Decent) MPs are going to ask him. But then I remembered that he will probably just never turn up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 05:15 PM

Their bottle-o, their bottle-o, the racists lost their bottle-o
   So earl-eye in the evening, the far-right lost their bottle-o
Society came out in force, so the bigots lost their bottle-o
   So earl-eye in the evening, the far-right lost their bottle-o

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 03:20 AM

Early days yet but when I see mass support for immigrants and Muslims, and against the thugs that have been in the news lately it gladdens my heart. Last night was a ray of hope in what had been a week of criminality coordinated by right wing manipulators to destabilise the country for their own ends. The vast majority of people have seen through their ploy and have stood against it. The justice system has shown them what will happen if they continue. Next step is to cut off the head of the nazi beast. Get Yaxley-Lennon in court. Make Farage answer for his shit stirring. Ensure the online safety act goes ahead and hit Musk hard if he continues to let his platform be used for hate.

I have been watching for riot apologists on friend's Facebook feeds and politely putting posters right when the start to parrot the misinformation put about by right wing puppet masters. It still surprises me that some folk are so gullible but, hopefully, even my little efforts will make a difference. My lad was at the demo in Stoke last night where they outnumbered the fascists by the hundred. The communities affected by the riots have reclaimed their streets from the criminals. Long may it continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 03:42 AM

A big “Amen” to all of that, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 24 - 09:44 AM

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=farage+latest+news since you asked a question about Farage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 24 - 12:02 PM

It was a rhetorical question that came with a ready answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 09 Sep 24 - 06:43 AM

Just seen this quoted in RISKS Digest 34.44*:

Subject: Visa required for EU entry starting next year

[via Dave Farber's IP distribution]

What has not been mentioned in most reports is that the set of planned EU restrictions on non-EU (non-Schengen, actually) citizens are all modeled on measures the U.S. has already implemented and encouraged other countries to adopt, as I discuss in a report for the Identity Project:

Planned new European travel restrictions follow U.S. precedents and pressure

[...]

But U.S. citizens who object to these new European measures should direct their objections and, more importantly, their agitation for changes in travel rules to the U.S. government.

These impending new European travel control and surveillance measures are modeled on systems developed, already in use in, and actively promoted to European and other governments around the world by the U.S. government.

By its precedents and international pressure, the U.S. government is making travel more difficult for everyone, including U.S. citizens, everywhere in the world including in Europe. [...]

MaJoC's €0.02: Once it affects US tourists, Something Might Be Done. But then again, there's now an entire industry behind the border checks, so that methinks is that.

* Apologies for the nonstandard location. The official archive site, with links to individual sub-articles, has database and certificate problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 24 - 10:22 AM

Very amusing this morning to hear the ferret-faced Shadow Leader of the Opposition, Chris Philp, complaining about the PM and Deputy PM accepting gifts from Labour donors of a few suits, posh spectacles, and the loan of an apartment in New York for a few nights, declaring with outraged, righteous indignation that “It’s wrong!”.

Funny, I don’t recall him exhibiting righteous indignation and declaring “It’s Wrong” over his own party spaffing billions on the contracts they gave their own members, donors, and pub landlords for PPE that never materialised or proved to be useless during the Covid pandemic, or filling the House of Lords with Russian oligarchs and friends of Putin.

Those Tory has-beens have no shame, nor any sense of irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 24 - 03:16 PM

Just read that the sum total of donations to Starmer is £12500 less than hust the cost of Bozos flat redecoration. I don't think either is right - just putting it in perspective

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 24 - 03:44 PM

I’m pretty sure that all influential MPs receive gifts, and I have no real problem with that as long as they are declared through the Members’ Register of Interests procedure (which the gifts in question appear to have been). Unfortunately, the Tories have chosen to weaponise gifts received by Labour Cabinet Ministers, presumably in an attempt to undermine the LP Conference and draw attention away from positive things the government are trying to do.

It should come as no surprise, after all the Tories demonstrated that they are The Party of Dirty Tricks with their character-assassination job on Corbyn in 2019.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Sep 24 - 12:12 PM

'ferret-faced Shadow Leader of the Opposition' should read 'ferret-faced Shadow Leader of the House of Commons;

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 24 - 01:14 PM

The Return of the sausages.The prime minster who not only stole old age pensioners fuel allowance, but provided us with that wonderful faux pas

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 24 - 01:27 PM

”’ferret-faced Shadow Leader of the Opposition' should read 'ferret-faced Shadow Leader of the House of Commons;”

You’re correct, of course, SPB, my error. But at least we agree he’s ferret-faced.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 24 - 03:48 AM

Starmer cutting fuel allowance is imo a mistake, what he should do now, is cut fuel allowAnce by half, not cut it completely, and find remaining money by increasing motor taxation, alcohol taxation etc .
cutting fuel allowance is going to affect the poorest pensioners, alternatively he could introduce means testing, of course the government will say the adminstration costs are too much, the labour party is implementing Conservative policies.
Starmer should be prioritising trade deals with Europe to boost the uk economy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 24 - 07:00 AM

It's a done deal, Dick. It will not change now but something may appear in the future that they will tell us is out of the goodness of their hearts

What they really need to so is reclaim some of the money that the last group of conmen gave away to their mates and families.

£4 billion pounds paid out for useless PPE equipment

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Sep 24 - 07:41 AM

"and find remaining money by increasing motor taxation, alcohol taxation etc"

Really clever, increase taxation on two of the most heavily taxed consumer items in the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 24 - 10:59 AM

I remember having the conversation with my Dad, a non driver and big drinker at the time while I had to drive for my job and so didn't drink much. Of course it hinged round which should be taxed more and got quite heated. Glad to say we never fell out about it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 24 - 11:41 AM

Raggytash,Alcohol and cigarette smoking, puts pressure on the NHS, So it is clever to try and discourage it, it is not clever to have old people being taken to hospital with hypothermia. I voted for the labour party but i did not vote for policies such as cutting winter fuel allowance. however if he is clever he will change his mind and reduce the allowance instead of totally getting rid of it, if he does not the tories will win the next election

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Sep 24 - 01:20 PM

Well, lets just clarify things a little you mention alcohol and cigarettes, cigarettes where not mentioned in your earlier post.

I stated that fuel and alcohol are already taxed highly, some of the highest rates in Europe.

Whilst I agree with you that the curtailment of the Winter Fuel Allowance is not a good move I do think that reinstating it by raising taxes on items that are already heavily taxed is tantamount to stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 24 - 02:13 PM

i did not mention taxing fuel
i suggested increasing motor tax, well according to Starmer he has to raise money, to quote mandy rice davies ....he would say that wouldnt he.
if he was clever he would compromise and reduce the winter fuel allowance, instead of getting rid of it, and possibly increase dirt taxor find some other way [that does not cause hardship to ole [people]of raising tax or is he a tory dressed up as labour

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 24 - 02:44 PM

‘Dirt tax’? WTF?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Sep 24 - 07:10 PM

"increase dirt taxor find some other way [that does not cause hardship to ole [people]of raising tax or is he a tory dressed up as labour"

Could someone please explain to me just what "dirt taxor" means? or even what "ole" means?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 03:09 AM

you live in ireland do not know what dirt taxis?
If you save an amount of money (a deposit), you may get paid an annual rate of interest on it by your bank or financial service provider. The interest you get is taxable. The tax is called Deposit Interest Retention Tax (DIRT). DIRT is charged at 33% on all interest payments.
ole was a typo for old

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 03:15 AM

how unknowledgeable some people are . Deposit Interest Retention Tax (DIRT). DIRT affects the rich more than the poor

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DaveRo
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 03:46 AM

Is there a difference between a 'deposit' and 'savings'? In the UK interest on savings is (mostly) taxed at your marginal income tax rate so poorer people pay less or none at all on small amounts of savings. Is DIRT at a fixed rate designed to discourage all savings?

(UK Winter fuel payments are not being eliminated, btw. Recipients of pension credit will continue to get it, so it is being means-tested. The losers are not the poorest but the ones slightly better off, or who don't apply for benefits - which they should.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 03:56 AM

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gv632d05lo[from the BBC ] millions of pensioners will lose their fuel allowance

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DaveRo
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 04:03 AM

But not all those millions are poor.
Changes to Winter Fuel Payment

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 04:17 AM

Please note the thread title - ‘Brexit and other UK political topics’. The Republic of Ireland is not a part of the UK, and discussions about its tax regime have no place on this, our one and only permitted UK politics thread.

If someone wants to discuss RoI taxation, please start a new thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 04:21 AM

imo, it is still not acceptable
.the majority of pensioners, who are not well off ,will be affected by this.
I am not going to engage in semantics with you, over words like poor and not so poor.
If starmer was an astute politician he would compromise on this, if he does not, this could possibly lose him the next election

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 04:26 AM

I’m one of those who has, in the past, benefitted from the Winter Fuel Allowance, despite the fact that I am well-enough off to neither need nor want it. I would have preferred it if the WFA had been properly means-tested right from its inception, and I would prefer it even more if this government had decided to properly means-test in now.

The government have made a big mistake, and the uproar it has caused is distracting the attention of the public away from the other, good, and important things they are doing.

I think Starmer will rue the day…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DaveRo
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 04:45 AM

The Sandman wrote: I am not going to engage in semantics with you, over words like poor and not so poor...

Who gets the payment, and who doesn't, is important. It was you who suggested upthread that it should be means tested, without knowing that was what is being proposed. It's more complicated than simple headlines suggest.

...If starmer was an astute politician he would compromise on this...

I agree.

Backwoodsman wrote: The government have made a big mistake, and the uproar it has caused is distracting the attention of the public away from the other, good, and important things they are doing.

I agree 100%.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 05:05 AM

While UK taxes are higher than in most other English-speaking developed economies (such as Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Ireland and the United States), they are considerably lower than in most other western European countries (average tax revenue amongst the EU14. Read more was 39.9% of GDP.
QUOTE BELOW FROM SOCIALIST WORKER        
News


Here are five facts that show why we should tax the rich far more:

    The total wealth of the richest 1,000 people in Britain in April 2016 was over £575 billion. It had risen by £29 billion in a year and has more than doubled since the start of the financial crisis in 2008.
    The richest 10 percent have nearly half the total wealth in Britain.
    Chief executives at Britain’s top firms on average rake in £5.3 million a year, 386 times more than workers paid the national living wage.
    Very wealthy people have had more wealth stuffed into their pockets by tax cuts—again and again. In 1973, the top rate of income tax, paid by the very rich, was 75 percent. Labour’s right wing chancellor Denis Healey raised it to 83 percent in 1974. For nine years of Margaret Thatcher’s Tory government the top rate was 60 percent. Today it is 45 percent.
    A third of Britain is owned by 1,200 families descended from the aristocracy. In Scotland 432 people own more than half of all private rural land

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DaveRo
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 05:57 AM

It's worth reading Thomas Piketty's Capital in the Twenty-First Century (though it's hard going!) to understand how wealth inequality arose - he goes back to the 19th Century in Britain, France, and the US - and why it's increasing now.

Most wealth now is held offshore and beyond the reach of national governments. His proposed solution - a globally agreed wealth tax - doesn't seem imminent!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 08:02 AM

Actions sometimes have unintended consequences.

From The Guardian earlier this week

Fifty pubs a month shut in first half of year in England and Wales, figures show


"Meanwhile, reports suggest the chancellor, Rachel Reeves, is considering raising alcohol duties in next month’s budget as she looks to plug what Labour says is a £22bn hole in the public finances. However, this will be damaging for wine and spirits producers, who say they are still dealing with the fallout of the largest single duty increase in 50 years last year, when there was a 20% rise on 85% of wines.

On Friday, figures from HM Revenue and Customs showed there had been a £1.3bn drop in alcohol duty receipts in the 12 months up to the end of August, which the Wine and Spirit Trade Association attributes to a drop in sales caused by the higher duties.

Miles Beale, the chief executive of the WSTA, said: “Last year’s damaging reforms to the alcohol excise duty system, including the largest single duty hike in almost 50 years, have hit businesses, consumers and the government purse. Prices have risen, sales are down, and so is duty income by over £1.3bn.”

It is calling on the government to freeze duty on wine and spirits for at least two years to allow sales to recover."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 08:33 AM

> Is there a difference between a 'deposit' and 'savings'?

Hm: methinks "savings" are for the long term, and a "deposit" is more for day-to-day activities. Different interest rates, and variations of ease of access, also apply.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 08:51 AM

> how wealth inequality arose

Inequality has always been the case, since at least New Testament times; an even distribution of wealth is a state of unstable equilibrium. As the Good Lord said:

For unto every one that hath shall be given, but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 11:05 AM

I want to see one of them dirt taxis that they have in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 12:35 PM

”I want to see one of them dirt taxis that they have in Ireland.”

Only visible to old blokes with their bellies full o’Guiness…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 02:41 PM

…or even Guinness! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 24 - 05:47 AM

I see that they are all coming out of the woodwork now

David Cameron and wife Samantha got freebie clothes paid for with Tory donor cash

I think the con party will wish they had never opened that bucket of worms. Let he who is without sin...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 24 - 07:30 AM

As I said earlier, Dave, I strongly suspect that receiving gifts is common practice amongst politicians of every stamp. And trying to make an issue of Starmer and others accepting gifts leading up to the GE is an indication of how little the Tories actually have to offer.

It’s reminiscent of the way they tried to make capital out of Liam Byrne’s note that ‘there’s no money left’ in 2010 - it was a long-running joke left by Chancellors ever since Reginald Maudling, a Tory, began the joke by leaving a similar kind of note for Jim Callaghan in 1964.

It’s a sad commentary on our politics nowadays that more energy seems to be put into this kind of nonsense than into the real problems we are facing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 24 - 07:40 AM

Dave:
I was going to read the link, but I see that the Daily Mirror now only gives options to accept advertising cookies, or pay to read.

But the 'London Economic' covers the Mirror's report and can be read without cookies: London Economic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 24 - 08:06 AM

Thanks Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 24 - 08:19 AM

In a question-and-answer session at the Tory conference this morning, Liz Truss claimed that the Tories would have won the GE if she had still been PM.

Discuss…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Sep 24 - 08:25 AM

With regards to gifts and donations to parties of both money & staff, I think we can all agree that the situation needs to be looked at more closely. It does not matter which party you support, the whole thing does not look great.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Sep 24 - 08:33 AM

"In a question-and-answer session at the Tory conference this morning, Liz Truss claimed that the Tories would have won the GE if she had still been PM."

Did she say that? The Guardian reports that she said she would have done better than Sunak. It also reports her as saying keeping Boris would have given them the best chance of winning.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 24 - 09:47 AM

It was stated on BBC2’s ‘Politics Live’ that she said it, although there was no actual clip shown. If the BBC can’t be relied upon, wh can?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 24 - 09:50 AM

”It also reports her as saying keeping Boris would have given them the best chance of winning.”

Just goes to show what a twonk she is. Even by Tory standards she’s a nut-bag, three sheets to the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 24 - 09:51 AM

Vested interEst hs long been a problem as well as corruption.Ernest Marples who had a road haulage business, was made minister for transport and appointed Beeching who savaged the rail network

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 24 - 10:50 AM

@Raindog - I just watched the Truss Q&A session on YT, and you’re correct, she didn’t say the Tories would have won the GE if she was the PM, the Guardian’s report is correct. Black mark to the BBC for allowing that to be reported on ‘Politics Live At The Conference’ when it appears not to have been true.

However, the Q&A session shows, in stark relief, what a truly appalling woman Truss is. Check it out, if you have the stomach for it…

Liz Truss Q&A at the Tory Conference 30/9/24

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 24 - 11:12 AM

I have been having a discussion with a Tory friend (we have lots in common and don't fall out over politics) about the freebies and back handers to MPs. We both agree that it is ludicrous that it happens in any party. Whether any one is worse than another is debatable but the level of hypocrisy in the party that turned a blind eye to Johnson's (the biggest grifter of our time) undeclared shenanigans playing holier than thou with Starmer just about sums up their attitude to morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 24 - 11:21 AM

Amen to that Dave, a thousand Amens.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 24 - 02:26 AM

policies are more important than personalities, what is needed right now are some trade deals between the uk and europe.
Truss is a back number from the past she is unimportant, a careerist who was not very bright and who is not even an MP anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Oct 24 - 03:54 PM

The Economist had an opinion page that was a hoot,
regarding the Conservative party and "swivel-eyed loons".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Oct 24 - 03:54 AM

“You may kill an artist or a thinker, but you cannot acquire his art or his thought. You may put a man to death because he loves his fellow-men, but you will not by so doing acquire the love which made his happiness. Force is impotent in such matters; it is only as regards material goods that it is effective. For this reason the men who believe in force are the men whose thoughts and desires are preoccupied with material goods.“
— Bertrand Russell, Political Ideals (1917), Ch. I: Political Ideals, p. 6

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Oct 24 - 07:49 AM

That too a substantial chunk out of my day comparing and contrasting Russell's and Marx's views o force and materiality.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 24 - 05:55 PM

Whatever tactical voting went on in the Tory party today went spectacularly wrong if they were hoping to steer the party back to the centre. Cleverly was far from what his name suggests but at least he was almost moderate. Badenoch and Jenrick are too far right to do anyone any good. Well, I suppose it will make Starmer's Labour at least look more like Socialists.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Oct 24 - 02:38 AM

There’s a school of thought that the Tories lost the election so badly, not because they’d lurched too far to the Right, but because they hadn’t lurched far enough to the Right. I’m beginning to think they might be on to something.

God help us (but not the Tory party).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 24 - 03:01 AM

The Labour party will lose the next election if they cannot clear up the mess they have been left, which includes the effect of Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Oct 24 - 04:29 AM

Is Brexit mostly British or English?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 24 - 01:06 PM

The United Kingdom is actually the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It comprises of England, Scotland, Wales and, as mentioned, Northern Ireland.

Within those 4 nations only England and Wales voted to leave but, sadly, it applied to the whole of the UK.

Bearing that in mind, can you rephrase the question so it makes sense?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Oct 24 - 06:35 PM

Is Brexit only English and Welsh, then?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 10 Oct 24 - 07:55 PM

Within those 4 nations only England and Wales voted to leave ....

England, Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland did not vote on whether or not to leave the EU. The referendum was held in the UK - a single entity. If the constituent countries are considered separately from the UK, then the Greater London region should also be considered as it had a larger electorate than Scotland and N. Ireland put together and voted 60%/40% to remain.

..... but, sadly, it applied to the whole of the UK.

Brexit is not being applied in Northern Ireland in the same way as in Great Britain. There is a de facto customs border in the Irish sea between NI and the rest of the UK.


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 24 - 08:38 AM

That's as may be Doug but a great issue was made about the different nations of the UK voting in different ways. The BBC Brexit results page is about the clearest I think - here

I was trying to clarify Thompson's question "Is Brexit mostly British or English?" and, on relfection, it is neither! You sum it up well with "The referendum was held in the UK" but I think Thompson needed clarification on what constitues the UK.

Your point about NI is true but is still a bone of contention for many. I visited Whitehead, just north of Carrickfergus, recently and it is a lovely stretch of coast. Do you think if I move there they will eventualy be classed as in the EU? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Oct 24 - 09:31 AM

Dave, I'd like to think so, but who knows. Nations and alliances meld and separate like buckets of microbes, despite what their poets and lovers may wish.

Oh, and yes, I know what the UK is, curently: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Whereas Britain is England, Scotland and Wales. (Always spoken in that order; I wonder how this fits with the universal order of vowels in which it's always the big bad wolf and never the bad big wolf.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 24 - 09:45 AM

The official definition of the UK is not England, Scotlans etc. but the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In turn, Great Britain is the biggest island of the British isles and comprises of England, Scotland and Wales. Thee British Isles are the set of islands off the north west coast of Europe! Just to confuse matters
:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 24 - 09:48 AM

Oh, and just to annoy the Irish nationalists, the second largest island of the group, Ireland, is also part of the British isles. Nothing to do with politics or nationality - It is just a geographic classification :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 24 - 11:21 AM

Dave, I would not move to northern Ireland if i were you.I did not like the tension i experienced there

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Oct 24 - 12:11 PM

I have a question and I'll try to remember to come back for the answer. Or someone can send a PM if it would start a squabble.

Where does a site like this - UK Column - fit in with some of your opinions regarding national and world politics from a UK perspective? https://www.ukcolumn.org/video/uk-column-news-30th-september-2024 I was pointed to the site and landed on this recent story because a US friend was opining about an unnamed (but we all knew it was his ex-spouse) former friend who has taken a dark turn in her political views. A few minutes in she starts to speak; I didn't listen to the whole program, but enough to realize I know very little about some of this stuff from the UK perspective. Who politically would this group align with?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 24 - 01:06 PM

The stretch of coast I visited was very laid back, Dick. I understand it is a loyalist area so what they would make of an Englishman of Polish decent that was brought up in Ukrainian orthodoxy, educated Catholic and anti-religion by choice I have no idea :-)

Stilly - I don't know UK Column but a quick lookup indicates that it is quite factual with most of its news but also aligns itself with right wing conspiracy theories. With that synopsis I would not trust them but maybe that is a bit blinkered. I dunno!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Oct 24 - 01:18 PM

That's pretty much the quick read I took on the site - down some conspiracy rabbit holes, but the "about" page suggests they want to be truthful but don't trust news organizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 24 - 02:36 AM

but don't trust news organizations. quote
And rightly so
all foreign political news is biased from the point of view of who is writing it whether it is USA CHINA RUSSIA, They all use political news as propaganda

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 24 - 03:31 AM

Teacher asked little Billy to use "propagana" in a sentence

"I saw a really good bike in the shop the other day but didn't get a good look. Next time I pass I'll have a proper gander"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Oct 24 - 11:38 PM

Did you take a look, Dick? It's a UK site.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Oct 24 - 03:19 AM

”His Excellency Keir Starmer”

I dunno about propaganda, but I don’t trust a news organisation that is so slack in its attention to detail that it can’t even get the Prime Minister’s appellation right. As PM, he’s a member of the Privy Council, and thus the correct appellation is ‘The Right Honourable’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 11:45 AM

I would try and approach their opinions with an open mind, i would still challenge everything they say, the same as if I was listening to BBC news.Back woodsman has made a valid point about attention to detail.
i am busy at the moment preparing a music lesson, and then i want to listen to les miserables, so i will give it a try , if you think i really need to

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 12:21 PM

Brian Gerrish, according to the internet has a dislike of fabians communists marxists etc, he is probably right wing anti establishment, he has not yet said much about immigrants, ,but he could be playing his cards close to his chest, extreme right wing conservative?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 01:16 PM

Gerrish sounds like an EU-hating nut-job. Best ignored.

Low-down on Brian Gerrish

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 01:40 PM

"Back woodsman has made a valid point about attention to detail.
i am busy at the moment preparing a music lesson, and then i want to listen to les miserables, so i will give it a try , if you think i really need to"

You couldn't make it up or could "i" "Back woodsman" and I am pretty sure that "les miserables" should be "Les Miserables"

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 02:41 PM

Les Misérables?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 02:54 PM

You are correct Thompson and if I had more knowledge about the use of keyboards .....................

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 03:47 PM

Backwoodsman, that Wiki page was quite an eye-opener. Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 03:22 AM

Raggytash, when I used Windows machines, I think the way to get acute accents was ctrl-alt-something and the vowel; however, looking it up, apparently it's now CTRL + ‘ (Apostrophe) + letter. On a Mac it's Option plus the letter.

Separately, I see to my astonished horror that the UK's current government plans to rent out the unemployed as guinnea pigs to a pharmaceutical giant "to get them back to work".
I'm all for people losing weight and getting fit; however, a mass grant of bicycles for the jobless, plus founding cycle touring clubs across the countries would do this in a more enjoyable and moral way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 09:10 AM

I know a bloke called Les who is pretty miserable...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 10:13 AM

Now that I read the piece again a second, less choleric time, that medicine isn't quite as experimental as it seems; it's already used for Type 2 Diabetes.
But linking obesity to worklessness (and by implication, "fat and lazy", if I'm not taking too far a step) seems horrible; also, how voluntary exactly is this experiment going to be?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 11:08 AM

It's the carbs that are killing folks with diabetes. The government should provide a good high fat and protein diet to those folks by way of experiment and watch them get slim and healthy (more of a keto approach than a chemical approach). Great experiment, that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 11:15 AM

The trouble with carbs is that they suffer from zero hydrate,so they are diminishing in form

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 20 Oct 24 - 07:24 PM

A bit surprised, or maybe I’m not, that there has so far been no mention of the sudden death of Alex Salmond on 12th October while away in Macedonia. Whatever you may think of him and his politics, or the rather drawn out court case in more recent years, he was undoubtedly a hugely important figure on the Scottish political scene over a good many years. Controversy seemed to follow him around, even down to who should “Bring him home” for you Les Mis fans - should it be the RAF, the Scottish Govt, his travel insurers or, as happened in the end, a friend and private benefactor, Sir Tom Hunter.
RIP Alex, with thanks for all the positive things you did for Scotland : free prescriptions, free university tuition for Scottish students, scrapping bridge tolls, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 24 - 03:38 AM

RIP Alex,
free prescriptions, free university tuition for Scottish students, scrapping bridge tolls,all good achievements

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 24 - 04:19 AM

Agreed. He certainly did some good things. Condolences to his loved ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 24 - 02:43 PM

LINK SOURCE INDEPENDENThttps://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-starmer-labour-b2630357.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab-en-gb

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 24 - 06:06 PM

I do wish you wouldn't just post links without comment, Dick. We have no idea what it is and many people will not just follow random links. Please provide a description and the reason you are posting it. Prefereably with some view of your own too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Oct 24 - 07:46 AM

Surely Andrew Bailey should be pulling his finger out, and printing about 3 billion £10 notes to Europe as settlement, making sure that the transactin does not appear on any officia treasury or bank of england record - then do the same to compenste (1) the treasury for loss of tax revnue form loss of access to overseas employees, and (2) loss of dorporation tax revenues form exports, and compensate us as well.... as long as the transactions are 'plain brown paper pages crammed full of banknotes' there is no economic impact.
RANT OVER

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 24 - 08:00 AM

I posted this on the US Election thread too. It does cross boundaries

The odious Farage, who supports the orange one, is up in arms. It seems that even though he has spent time and money supporting Trump himself, no-one from the Labour party is allowed to support Harris. In the report is says "British allies of Trump drew a distinction between the actions of an opposition politician and the governing party." So, a very Trumpian one law for us and one for everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 24 - 04:57 PM

Dave, it was this
Staggering cost of Britain’s Brexit divorce revealed – and there’s billions more to pay EU

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 24 - 01:57 AM

people are capable of forming opinions without me givng mine, giving my opinion is unnecessary

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 24 - 04:38 AM

People do not form opinions because of other people's views, Dick, but some are interested in what you think. The whole point of a discussion is to exchange ideas and, to that end, it is pretty pointless just to post a random link with no indication of why you have done it. When you post a link it is just common courtesy to say what it is about and why you think other people may be interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 24 - 04:39 AM

Oh, and 800 :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DaveRo
Date: 26 Oct 24 - 04:44 AM

people are capable of forming opinions without me

True. But personally I'd like a reason for why I should bother to click a link, if only a sentence saying what it's about. In this case the link included 'brexit-eu-starmer-labour' which was not enough - there have been hundreds of articles on those subjects; why should I look at this one?

Absent a reason for clicking, I have only the identity of the poster. Some folk on here, I'd nearly always click their links. Others - never. You're - er - somewhere in the middle ;)

It also comes accross as lazy on the poster's part. If they don't spend any effort posting, why would I waste my time reading? And possibly fighting cookie banners and paywalls.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 24 - 05:37 AM

”The whole point of a discussion is to exchange ideas and, to that end, it is pretty pointless just to post a random link with no indication of why you have done it. When you post a link it is just common courtesy to say what it is about and why you think other people may be interested.”

Spot on Dave.

”It also comes accross as lazy on the poster's part. If they don't spend any effort posting, why would I waste my time reading? And possibly fighting cookie banners and paywalls.”

Spot on too, DaveRo. I have a short mental list of posters whose posts I scroll past as a matter of principle because they are mostly hogwash, often deliberately and unnecessarily provocative, and seldom worth reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 24 - 05:42 AM

BWM :-D

Dick, do you never wonder why lots of your posts are deleted?

---

As has again happened. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 24 - 02:08 PM

Obviously not, Dave! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Oct 24 - 09:18 AM

Finally, some good news, Yaxley is behind bars. We just need to instruct the Home Office to write to eeryone in the UK to make sure that everyone understands that Yaxley was lying. The cost can be met by a personal, bank loan to Yaxley which he, his family and his descendents will just need to work off.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 24 - 11:52 AM

His defence solicitor said that "he was such a controversial figure he may be placed in solitary confinement by prison governors, as had occurred the last time he had been jailed, and there was medical evidence he had previously suffered trauma, panic attacks and nightmares."

What a shame for the poor hard done to little lamb...

Who remembers Lizzie Cornish? I had the misfortune to come across some of her rantings on Faceache recently. Not only did she believe that convicted paedophile Rolf Harris was innocent but also that Tommy Robinson is misunderstood and simply standing up for the rights of British people. Her FB posts are no longer visible as I suspect she would be subject to criminal investigation if they were public but she was rambling on about how criminal immigrants were taking over the country and only Yaxley-Lennon was telling the truth. His litany of criminal convictions were all a put up job and she believed every vile lie he posts. Mad as a box of frogs yet there are still those who believe she was badly treated on here....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Oct 24 - 03:59 PM

Lizzie Cornish posts are still visible on facebook.
I am pleased YAXLEY is behind bars

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Oct 24 - 08:38 PM

You need to use an alternate FB account that she hasn't thought of and blocked if you want to see her ranting (I was blocked years ago, but after Dave pointed this out a while back I tracked her down using another account). Look in the dictionary for a definition of "wacko" and there is a photo of Lizzie. She really gives left-leaning politics a bad name.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 03:37 AM

I can see her FB rantings, although why anyone would want to I really can’t imagine - I only looked out of inquisitiveness. Nothing’s changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 04:57 AM

Keir Starmer, heir to Blair
Mike Amesbury, heir to Prescott

Details in Sky News

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 05:19 AM

Careful, Nigel. People in glass-houses shouldn’t throw stones, and there are plenty of examples of thoroughly bad lots amongst the mob that you’re daft enough to support - two of the worst are currently vying for the boss’s job.

To paraphrase the Good Book - “Let he whose party is without sin…”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 05:33 AM

from bbc news
In July 2023, a 56-year-old man was convicted of stalking and harassing the MP at his constituency office and in Frodsham town centre.

The court heard the offender had stared through the office glass, asked guards about their level of security, and followed and confronted Amesbury on several occasions.

At the time, Amesbury said it had resulted in him feeling "that little bit more anxious".

Listen to the best of BBC Radio Merseyside on Sounds and follow BBC Merseyside on Facebook, X, and Instagram. You can also send story ideas to [e-mail] and via Whatsapp to 0808 100 2230.quote


At this point in time, we do not know if this is the same man, neither do we know how the MP was threatened.
What we do know is this Helen Joanne Cox (née Leadbeater; 22 June 1974 – 16 June 2016) was a British politician who served as Member of Parliament (MP) for Batley and Spen from May 2015 until her murder in June 2016. She was a member of the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 07:22 AM

To paraphrase the Good Book - “Let he whose party is without sin…”

Oh good. does that mean you'll stop carping on about the Conservative Party?

No?

I thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 08:19 AM

Well, for once, you seem to have got the point. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 08:22 AM

…although the Labour Party have a very long way to fall before they plumb the depths your bunch of crooks and scrotes have sunk to over the past 14 years. But I don’t expect a Tory Fan-boi to acknowledge that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 12:12 PM

He could have a future career in a boxing ring.a good way or not a good way to deal with STALKERS? a good way to deal with bullies, any opinions
Dave the gnome what is your opinion on bullies, what is your opinion on stalkers, backwoodsman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 12:22 PM

Don't like any of them, Dick, but to bring the topic back to politics, Members of Parliament in particular should never bully anyone. Nor should they be subject to stalking or intimidation for doing the job they were elected to do. If the bloke who was punched was Amesbury's stalker, he should have been stopped but Amesbury himself was wrong to take the law into his own hands.

Nigel, you were quite right to call this out and no amount of whataboutery excuses Amesbury's behaviour. Likewise, no amount of 'what about Labour?' excuses the antics of the Tories over the last few years. Whether more Tory wrongdoing is called out is because they do a lot more wrong or whether it is because the members on here are more left leaning is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 04:27 PM

whether it was right or wrong, and until i know what his provoker actually said, i will assume it was wrong it was a mighty left hook.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 24 - 05:30 PM

Maybe the first blow could have been preemptive self defence but I cannot think of a justification to carry on punching and kicking when the guy was on the deck

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 24 - 04:25 AM

Better to wait until all the facts have come out. .yes you are right about kicking him and punching on the ground

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Oct 24 - 04:58 PM

I see Robert Jenrick is saying that colonised nations should be grateful for all the civilisation brought to them by colonisers. Sounds really great! Maybe some of England's former colonies could return the favour - say, India could have London, Pakistan could take Kent, Ireland might like to hold on to, say, Devon and Cornwall (source of some of the most notable kindly colonisers like Raleigh and Drake) for a few hundred years?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 05:12 AM

Ian Dunt’s excellent piece In the i Newspaper about yesterday’s first Labour budget. I agree with him, and so so the IMF.

And wasn’t it wonderful to see Fishy Rishi losing his shit because he knew their greedy, self-servative ideology had just been shoved down the Tories’ throats…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 10:41 AM

I cannot see the i article without paying :-(

Any chance of a synopsis?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:00 PM

Dave the Gnome: Yes, I only got as far as the headline before being asked to pay:
Want to understand how good this Budget is? Just look at Sunak’s shimmering rage

Does this mean that if Sunak had not objected, or had a laid back response, it would be proclaimed a bad budget? Is someone's only view of the budget based on whether it infuriates the opposition?
This seems no reasonable way to run a country (although not quite so bad as ladies in lakes handing out swords!)

As to your earlier comment but I cannot think of a justification to carry on punching and kicking when the guy was on the deck
It was Terry Pratchett (in Guards Guards) who wrote:
"“Corporal Nobbs,’ he rasped, ‘why are you kicking people when they’re down?’
‘Safest way, sir,’ said Nobby.”"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:08 PM

”Does this mean that if Sunak had not objected, or had a laid back response, it would be proclaimed a bad budget? Is someone's only view of the budget based on whether it infuriates the opposition?”

You do yourself a great dis-service when your only response is to pretend to be thick Nigel. Please don’t, we know you’re not really that stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:24 PM

…and I’m pretty sure Ian Dunt meant ‘simmering rage’, not ‘shimmering’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:29 PM

”I cannot see the i article without paying :-(“

That’s strange, Dave - I didn’t have to pay and I could see the whole thing. Are you sure it’s not just a case of registering FOC to read their on-line articles?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 12:53 PM

It said that I had reached my limit of free articles

Yes, Nigel, I think he had taken a leaf out of Nobby's policing manual :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Nov 24 - 06:09 PM

And so it begins.
In relation to paywalls, if you wait a few days a lot of things will appear on the Wayback Machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 10:42 AM

So Kemi Badenoch is the new Tory leader. They haven’t learned a thing, have they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DaveRo
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 02:26 PM

Thompson wrote: And so it begins.

Bookmark my Simple linkifier to avoid breaking long links.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 03:58 PM

"So Kemi Badenoch is the new Tory leader. They haven’t learned a thing, have they?"

Well it was not much of a choice was it?
But.
They decided to elect a female leader.
They decided to elect a non white leader.
Perhaps some other parties might take notice.

On another matter, I think it was mentioned that 131,000 members had a vote.

The vast majority of people here in the UK are not members of any political party. Come any election, we rely on the various parties to put up candidates to enable us to choose the least worst options. All the parties put forward their policies but how many have canvassed the opinions of the general public?

Over the years I have got fed up with all governments claiming to have a 'mandate' to inflict their policies on all of us. They might have a majority of seats but the fact remains that the majority of people did not vote for that party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 04:15 PM

Bookmark my Simple linkifier to avoid breaking long links.
Is this the one that appears below the reply field ("Make a link ("blue clicky")? Because that's what I use normally.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 05:57 PM

Thompson, the Simple Linkifier that DaveRo wrote is ‘cleverer’ than the one you mentioned above - I use DaveRo’s script all the time and it does indeed take care of long links. I’ve linked to it below, and I suggest you save it as a Favourite…

https://revad.github.io/linkifier.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 06:30 PM

Thanks, Backwoodsman, have done so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 02:01 AM

An interesting piece from Chris Mason, BBC Political Editor, suggesting that all is not well for the Tories under their new leader, Kemi Badenough (oops, sorry - Badenoch). Judging by the few shadow-ministers she’s already appointed, it looks very much like the same old, same old - Jenrick, Patel, Stride, yadda yadda. Not exactly inspiring stuff so far…

Chris Mason: Not exactly perfect harmony for Tories

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 04:37 AM

Performative patriotism: England and its month-long poppyfest.
(As far as I know, other countries whose soldiers slaughtered and were slaughtered don't wear an equivalent. French prime ministers wear the cornflower, but only on the day at ceremonies of rememberance.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 04:57 AM

They wear the poppy in Canada - my BIL is currently out selling them every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 05:00 AM

And you’re an intelligent being, Thomo - I’m sure you’re perfectly aware that wearing the poppy has little to do with ‘patriotism’ and everything to do with Remembrance of those on all sides who died during The Great War, and all wars since.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 05:33 AM

Remembrance of those on all sides who died during The Great War, and all wars since.
And of the survivors whose day to day care needs the support of the Earl Haig Fund, for which poppy sales is a major contributor.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 06:21 AM

I wonder is it really remembrance of those on all sides… surely if it were, the money collected from the sales would go to the survivors on all sides?
I've nothing against people wearing a poppy if they want - though preferably only on 11 November - what I can't stand is the performative requirement of it on UK TV stations, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 06:47 AM

Are you resident in the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 06:49 AM

”And of the survivors whose day to day care needs the support of the Earl Haig Fund, for which poppy sales is a major contributor.”

Spot on, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 06:59 AM

Badenough has appointed the weasel, Chris Philp, as Home Secretary. More barrel-bottom-scraping…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 07:01 AM

Not resident in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 07:28 AM

So what we do for Remembrance in the UK, and how our TV Channels choose to present Remembrance, isn’t really your business then, is it?

If you don’t like our TV Presentations, why not stick to Irish TV?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 08:08 AM

It's a local custom for local people, and I'm not local, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 08:42 AM

Speaking from my own personal experience, of people I meet with very few even consider that combatants from other nations should be included in the events on Armistice day. Or even think that people from other nations died.

This is clearly evidenced by the recent documentary
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-soldiers-that-saved-britain

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 10:07 AM

That's their problem, Raggy. AFAIC it's all those whose lives were taken, irrespective of what 'side' they belonged to. A life is a life, and dead men aren't an 'enemy' to anyone.

I'm pretty sure the RBL agree with me, but I'll check that when I get home.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 10:53 AM

So, according to the British Legion, it is to ”Unite across faiths, cultures and backgrounds to remember the service and sacrifice of the Armed Forces community from United Kingdom and the Commonwealth. We will remember them.”

Not quite as I thought, but far more than simple ‘patriotism’, and far, far deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 01:20 AM

Backwoodsman, sorry. I was reactive and being "smart". Of course English people are entitled to their ceremonies and their patriotism.
But… I don't like the way that poppies seem to be required - apparently they're compulsory for people appearing on the BBC before 11 November. (I assume this is only for British people, but I'm not sure.)
To be clear, I don't like performative patriotism in my own country either, or in any country.
I do attend ceremonies commemorating our own war dead, which include members of my own family. But it absolutely grates on me when right-wing demonstrators carry our national flag, or claim that their type of patriotism owns or represents my country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 01:49 AM

No problem at all Thompson, I totally agree with your final point, it boils my piss too. I’m absolutely not a flag-shagger, in fact, I don’t like Nationalist symbols such as flags at all. But I do like the idea of the poppy as a symbol of Remembrance, and I don’t mind if people wear theirs for a period before and after Remembrance and Armistice Days. As I said previously, I regard the poppy as remembering all those from all sides who gave their lives in all wars from the Great War onwards. A life is a life, regardless of nationality, and every life lost is worth remembering.

On a tour of the WW1 battlefields in Belgium a few years ago, the most moving moment for me was in the German Cemetery in Vladslo, where the monument created by Käthe Kollwitz, ‘The Grieving Parents’, stands - it really brought home to me the utter futility and stupidity of war, and the universal grief of those whose loved ones are taken from them in war.

Käthe Kollwitz, “The Grieving Parents”

Thanks for your thoughtful response above - we’re really not that far apart, are we?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 02:23 AM

Sorry for bringing in outside influences but as we can no longer comment on the US election thread...

It will affect the UK and the rest of the world. Looks like we are fucked;-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 03:47 AM

A very sad day, Dave - for the whole world. Oh America, what have you done?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:34 AM

One thing. At least this madness will be reversed in 4 years. Unlike Brexit!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 05:48 AM

> At least this madness will be reversed in 4 years.

.... 1461 days and counting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 12:30 PM

Just a reminder of the resonance of the poppy!

In Flanders Fields

By John McCrae

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
    That mark our place; and in the sky
    The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
    Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
       In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
    The torch; be yours to hold it high.
    If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
       In Flanders fields.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 12:44 PM

In Flanders Fields was written in 1915. Two years later:

Dulce et Decorum Est
By Wilfred Owen

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 01:01 PM

‘In Flanders Fields’ is my favourite war poem, Nigel. Essex Farm was one of the truly moving highlights (if that’s the right word) of our trip to the Belgian WW1 battlefields, along with Tyne Cot cemetery, the German cemetery in Vladslo, and the Cloth Hall WW1 Museum in Ieper. We were fortunate also to be at the Menin Gate ceremony on the 11th November, a never-to-be-forgotten experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 06:07 AM

I'm not sure about 'favourite' war poem. 'For the fallen' also has resonances particularly with the very short extract used (and often misquoted) in the Remembrance Sunday services.
When I was working for HMRC (Hisssss) I used to put both on a staff contact website on 11 November morning to give those who had trouble with concentration for keeping a two-minute silence something to read.

For the Fallen

By Laurence Binyon

With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
England mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres,
There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning
We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England's foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.

Source: The London Times (1914)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 11:17 AM

Christmas: 1924
by Thomas Hardy
" Peace upon earth!" was said. We sing it,
And pay a million priests to bring it.
After two thousand years of mass
We've got as far as poison-gas.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 12:38 PM

I can't stand any of those noble war poems. And I've heard former soldiers bitterly mocking them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DaveRo
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 03:44 PM

Some thoughtful responses today to the Guardian piece on “Has poppy mania gone too far?” My favourite:

I used to wear a white poppy for peace – alongside a red poppy, so that I didn’t get assaulted for wearing the white one!

Poppy mania and the endless fight for peace

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 05:01 PM

Excellent!

In The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club [set in 1921] by Dorothy L Sayers, Lord Peter Wimsey is able to date the murder of Gen Fentiman to 10 November and not, as first thought, Armistice Day, as the general was not wearing a poppy, which, of course, he would have been on 11 November.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 10:19 AM

Mike Harding's excellent Christmas 1914

Best remembrance I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:05 AM

Extraordinary, Davethe. What a song.
I've been reading Precipice by Robert Harris, a novel centred on the letters of Venetia Stanley to the prime minister of the pre-WWI and early WWI days, HH Asquith, which have been preserved, though his replies have not. Very interesting view of how the war to end all wars happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:14 AM

Good un init :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 02:47 PM

"Very interesting view of how the war to end all wars happened."

I have not read the Harris novel. I did read an interesting review in Literary Review of

Disputing Disaster:A Sextet on the Great War by Perry Anderson

It is on my to read list.