BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum

Subject: BS: shooting in DC?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM

DEVELOPING
Shooting Reported at U.S. Holocaust Museum
Officials are investigating report of gunshots at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in downtown Washington. A police spokeswoman said the report came in at 12:52 p.m.

D.C. fire department spokesman Alan Etter said a police officer had been shot outside the museum. It was not immediately clear what agency the officer was from, or how serious the injuries were. Debbi Wilgoren

CLOSE

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:55 PM

Shooting reported at Holocaust Museum in Washington

Story Highlights
NEW: Schoolteacher visiting Holocaust Museum says he heard a "boom"

Private security guard is one of those wounded, officials say

Fire official says at least two people were wounded

updated 3 minutes ago

   
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Gunfire at the entrance of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum wounded at least two people Wednesday, emergency officers said.


Gunfire was reported near the Holocaust Museum in Washington on Wednesday.

A private security guard and another person were wounded, according to officials of the D.C. police and fire department.

Emergency vehicles converged on the scene near the Capitol Mall.

Dave Pearson, a 6th grade teacher in the Washington, D.C., area, said he was on the museum's fourth floor when he heard a loud noise.

"At the time, we're visiting and all of a sudden there's like a boom, and all of a sudden they told us to stop where we're at," he told CNN's Ed Henry.

"Only thing we heard was a boom, and that was it."

A woman who did not give her name said that she understood the shooting happened inside the museum near the security checkpoint at the entrance.

She said she was quickly evacuated.

"We did see yellow tape down the hall when we were being rushed out," she said. "They came in and said we had to leave right away and they got us out.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: maeve
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:59 PM

I found a little more information Here-Washington Post


maeve

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: jeffp
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:00 PM

According to sources cited by CNN, the shooter is an 88-year-old white supremacist.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM

From http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/10/AR2009061001768.html?hpid=topnews:


"A law enforcement source identified the gunman as James W. von Brunn, 88, who is known to authorities as a white supremacist. On a Web site he apparently maintains extolling a "Holy Western Empire," von Brunn says he served in the U.S. Navy during World War II, worked for 20 years as an advertising executive and film producer in New York and then became "an artist and author" living on Maryland's Eastern Shore."

**

SPLC: Shooter had deep ties to far-right extremists
by Jed Lewison
Wed Jun 10, 2009 at 12:38:26 PM PDT

"Heidi Beirich of the Southern Poverty Law Center says the SPLC had been tracking James von Brunn's involvement with right-wing extremists, including neo-Nazis and white supremacists, since the 1970s."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/10/740906/-SPLC:-Shooter-had-deep-ties-to-far-right-extremists

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:55 PM

You can't follow ALL the nutcases 24/7..... they will manage to get by... and the NRA won't let us take away their guns, so this will keep happening on a semi-regular basis.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM

"Holocaust museum shooter reportedly white supremacist James von Brunn.
This afternoon, a gunman apparently shot at least one person at the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. MSNBC is reporting that the suspected shooter, who also sustained gunshot wounds, is James Von Brunn, a white supremacist born in 1920. Brunn has been approvingly cited on Stormfront, a national white supremacist website. He is apparently the author of a tract called, "Kill the Best Gentiles," which his website describes as "a new, hard-hitting exposé of the JEW CONSPIRACY to destroy the White gene-pool." Brunn, a WWII veteran, also wrote a screed on President Obama's citizenship that was re-posted to popular right-wing message board Free Republic...

A Department of Homeland Security report leaked earlier this year — and subsequently retracted — warned of right-wing extremists "that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups)."

UPDATE Free Republic has now deleted the thread in which von Brunn's writings were posted and linked to.

UPDATE Last year, Brunn wrote an article praising Hitler and calling America "a Third-World racial garbage-dump."..

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/06/10/brunn-holocaust-shooter/

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:03 PM

I guess we can be sort of thankful he was not well enough organized to do more damage.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:08 PM

Speaking of organizations: People outside of the UK can add Folk Against Fascism as their Facebook friend and/or their MySpace friend.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=114616997574

http://www.myspace.com/folkagainstfascism

Also, visit this Mudcat thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=121472&messages=125

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM

Would that all terrorists were 88 years old. Would make them easier to catch...

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:45 PM

88!! You'd think he had enough to do, somehow!

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: fretless
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:54 PM

The museum guard, initially wounded by Von Brunn, has now been reported to have died.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 05:59 PM

I suspect at 88 he figured he didn't have much to lose. I wonder what his end game was, if he had one.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:11 PM

from here



"Von Brunn has a racist, anti-Semitic Web site and wrote a book titled "Kill the Best Gentiles."

In 1983, he was convicted of attempting to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve Board and served more than six years in prison. He was arrested two years earlier outside the room where the board was meeting, carrying a revolver, knife and sawed-off shotgun. At the time, police said Von Brunn wanted to take the members hostage because of high interest rates and the nation's economic difficulties."


So, he had committed a felony- and thus could not legally get a gun.

BillD is wrong- he had to break the existing laws to get the gun.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:14 PM

Oy! These gun obsessives are amazing. Do they jump up every time there's a suicide bombing and defend the right to stockpile explosive belts?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:34 PM

These anti-gun obsessives are amazing. Here is a case where all the present laws say the person shouls never have had a gun, and they think that another law would do anything other than disarm the law-abiding citizen, making them easy victims for criminals.



"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The suspect in Wednesday's fatal shooting at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is James von Brunn, an 88-year-old white supremacist from Maryland, two law enforcement officials told CNN.

Von Brunn served six years in prison on federal attempted kidnapping, assault and firearms charges after what he called a "legal, nonviolent citizens arrest" of members of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors.

On his Web site, "Holy Western Empire," von Brunn said he was "convicted by a Negro jury, Jew/Negro attorneys, and sentenced to prison for eleven years by a Jew judge."

"He is in our files going back way into the 1980s," said Heidi Beirich, a researcher for the Montgomery, Alabama-based Southern Poverty Law Center.

"He has extremely long history with neo-Nazis and white supremacists. He's written extremely incendiary publications, raging about Jews, blacks and the like." "

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:32 PM

"BillD is wrong- he had to break the existing laws to get the gun. "

ummm... as the situation now stands, illegally obtaining a gun doesn't seem to deter them much. There people who 'legally' have access to guns who will happily sell...or give... guns to others.
My point was, the laws supported BY the NRA will not allow enough latitude for reducing the access to guns. Stating that: "That naughty fellow broke the law....and if the old guy survives, we sure will prosecute him!" will not be much solace to the guard's family.

We don't even have much latitude in stopping people like him..(and the anti-abortion wing-nuts).. from inciting the extremists to violence on hundreds of web sites.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:36 PM

I agree with you BillD. So the best solution is to keep them from having that freedom of speech that allows them to incite. To Hell with the Bill Of Rights! Got to make it safe, regardless of the cost!

( sarcasm above, for thse who do not know me)

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: open mike
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:45 PM

since he (the gunman) does not believe the halocaust existed,
he is trying to create a disaster all on his own...

sad.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:49 PM

...and inappropriate sarcasm under the circumstances. (from one who knows you mean well.)

Freedom of speech IS a great and important right.... but the old saw about "shouting "fire" in a crowded building" needs to be remembered.
Shouting on a web site "we must ACT against those who would trample our Anglo-Saxon heritage" is kinda 'inciting', don'tcha think?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:54 PM

So, we can throw out the rest of the Bill of Rights, whenever it seems like a useful thing to do.


Shouting fire in a crowded building is the equivalent of a fully automatic weapon- which is ( and has since 1933 ) been illegal.

If someone so well known to be a felon, and being watched ( per the article) can get a gun illegally, what law can you pass that would keep him from getting one?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:20 PM

Automatic weapons were banned by the National Firearms Act (NFA) in 1934.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:27 PM

Sorry, my mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:32 PM

"
So, we can throw out the rest of the Bill of Rights, whenever it seems like a useful thing to do."

I didn't say that, and you KNOW that's a straw man....

"...what law can you pass that would keep him from getting one?" Oh, the tempation to tell you!

I can't pass ANY law that would make a difference...and neither can anyone else as long as NRA scare tactics makes us (US type 'us') willing to just accept a few hundred deaths & injuries every year as the price for this 'freedom' for average guys to keep dangerous toys.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:35 PM

(and please don't use the "cars & knives cause problems too" argument again? Please?)

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:42 PM

Ain't no one advocatin' "throwing out the Bill of Rights", bb... That is just knee-jerkism at its best on yer part...

Just as on the other thread about guns, you don't want a discussion about the abiguity of the language of the 2nd ammendment... You and th NRA just want reasonable people to shut the fu*k up... And if we don't then ya'll don't have no problem if folks like this nut just shut us up by assasinatin' us...

That's purdy much what it biols down to with the right wing... The entire last part of the 20th century was marked with right winged people assasinating progressives... You have to go back to Huey Long in the 30's to find the last rigyhtie that was assasinated... Since then, bb, yer side has had no problems with using assasination as one of it's terrorist tools...

That is the way it is... No dodgin' it... Now, to wit, we have lunies right wing folks who have captured the airwaves (which are supposed to be owned by the public) to preach hatred...

There will be more right wingers assasinating progressives until we call a halt to right wingers thinking that's it's perfectly okay to yell "Fire!!!" in a crowded movie theather...

But, yeah, I've heard all the right wing arguments... They love to spout off "strick construction" and "judical activism" when it means that they can let any right winged nutball to not only have unfettered access to high powered waepons but also unfettered access to hate programing that streams over the publicly owned airwaves...

Home Land Security Secretary Napolitano warned of this and the right wing yhelf her feet to the fire and she apologized... I think that she can retract the apology now 'cause we're back into another right wing assasination binge... 2 in 11 days, and counting...

But , ya'll keep them nutballs charged up with hate speech and guns... It's what the right wing does best... Killing and lieing!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:44 PM

As long as you also outlaw bows, arrows, and swords. Items designed with only one purpose in mind, there is no justification.

And then we have knives... Can't have them, someone might stab someone else.

As for laws, we have had many ( Prohibition) that tried to remove a "danger to society"- and most have caused far more harm by unintended consequences than the original danger ever did.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:50 PM

"You and th NRA just want reasonable people to shut the fu*k up.."

No, you are the one trying to get others to shut up.



As for the wording of the 2nd amendment, it is far less ambiguous than the application of "Freedom of speech" to the internet. Yet I fear most would not allow any discussion of restricting internet usage.


Let the Supreme Court decide the meaning of the 2nd amendment- and the others, as well. If you don't like it, PASS AN AMENDMENT changing it, don't try to weasel around. But be careful- What you do may have unintended consequences, encouraging others to change the Bill of Rights to match what THEY feel are significant threats- like Blues and Rap.

If you don't like my capitals , then try listening to what I write and not attacking the person when you do not like the arguement.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:04 PM

Let's stick to the constitution and what the framers had in mind. Everyone can have personal arms in their home as long as they are a type and mechanism type available in 1791.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:07 PM

This particular white supreamist shooter probably did not need Rush LImbaugh for encouragment and an emboldened self esteem to commit political/terrorist murder, however there is a clear increase in assaults on police officers as well as the recent high profile murders such as Dr. Tiller and other church shootings.

If you too were to monitor the hatriotic goadings by the right wing raido personalities for just one week you would be surprised how many times you will hear the call for violence and action against those who are now destroying :
capitalism
babies
the rights of white people
the constitution
the economy

Calling on the 10% of unemployed Americans who only feel powerful when armed and have nothing left to lose to go out and fight against the Obama tyranny has resulted in murder.

Imus was broomed away for saying nappy headed ho.
It took only a pompous activist to organize his removal.

What and who will do the same for the most vile "entertainers" who call for their xenophobic revenge against Jews Blacks Mexicans Gays and 'Democrat Socialists' in order to take back America?

Do not forget that several of these terrorists have quoted Rush LImbaugh as a defense and rationale for the murders they have commited both verbally and in letters left behind.

Before you dissmisively say in Limbaugh's "its just free speech", realize that inciting people to kill is not always political speech. Sometimes it is aiding and abetting murder.




I could go into detail about the ways in which certain inflamatory remarks are qualified and certain lies have a straw man lie preceding it, but suffice it to say that Rush has already killed people he has never met and I suspect he enjoys it.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:17 PM

This is really an outrageous incident, and especially tragic for the family and friends of security guard that was killed. And it's even more outrageous that the act took place at a holocaust museum.

Bill Cohen, former US Republican Senator from Maine and Secretary of State under President Clinton, whom I know was 30 feet away and expressed his shock and concern on CNN, and described how he and the museum director got the hell up the stairs as fast as they could. They also did all they could to prevent other museum visitors from trying to evacuate the museum via those same stairs, which might have exposed them to a firefight.

I find it strange that some folks here find something to debate. It's almost as if the actions above were happening on a video screen rather than in some real place.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:23 PM

A Black Man Dying in Defense of the Holocaust Museum
10 Jun 2009 05:32 pm
Ta-Nehisi writes:

"Perhaps this means nothing but I feel that I should acknowledge that a black man was killed on guard duty at the Holocaust museum. That may mean nothing. But I think it should be said.

No, it means something. More than something, in fact. The great tragedy of the rift between blacks and Jews is that while we waste time arguing with each other, our common enemy -- racialist fascism -- goes unfought. Add Stephen Tyrone Johns to the group that includes Schwerner, Chaney, and Goodman. All were victims of the same sick ideology."

http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/06/a_black_man_dying_in_defense_o.php

My condolences to the family & friends of Stephen Tyrone Johns.

**

It may be a coincidence, but this evening was to be the debut of Anne and Emmett, a play written by Janet Langhart Cohen, the wife of Former Defense Secretary William S. Cohen. A comment written by Secretary Cohen indicates that he was   "30 feet away from where the shots were fired. Mrs. Cohen was in transit to the final rehearsal of her play, Anne and Emmett, at the time of the shooting, but was unable to enter the building upon her arrival...

"Anne & Emmett" is centered around an imaginary conversation between 14-year-old Anne Frank and 15-year-old Emmett Till. One was murdered because she was Jewish, the other because he was Black. These two teenagers were fatal victims of anti-Semitism and racism. The play explores the commonalities and parallels between their lives. This play will give all who view it an inside look at why it is so vital that the world learn more about genocide and how we can act to prevent it before it is too late".

http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2009/06/tragedy-at-us-holocaust-museum-open-thread/#disqus_thread





S

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:27 PM

That "S" is a typo. Or maybe it stands for Sorry.

There are so many things all of us could (should) be sorry for.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:09 PM

Of course, the guy might have been a complete loon, and incapable of thinking, but assuming he had some kind of an agenda--at least something that made sense to him--what could it have been? Given what's been disclosed about him, it's kind of hard to believe that he went there to kill a security guard.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:58 PM

Why assume that the framers of the US constitution were infallible and all-seeing, with the power to foresee the future? Particularly if you have doubts about whether Gods had the same capabilities. Regrettably this thread very well illustrates the failures of the absolutist freedom of speech approach in dealing with dangerous extremists.

THere have always been things that a populace have been forbidden to own, say, and do. The question is where and how to draw the line, and where and how to stabilise it so that it cannot be manipulated for anti-social ends.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:44 PM

Okay, Richard. Assume the framers of the US constitution were wrong. What would you change, and how would that affect what has taken place today?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:08 AM

"As long as you also outlaw bows, arrows, and swords. Items designed with only one purpose in mind, there is no justification."

I'm quite sure law enforcement...and myself... would be happy to have only bows & swords & knives to contend with.
Firearms **are** a special category... they allow killing easily and quickly...and in the case of handguns, with surprise. Cowards who would not dare face their 'enemy' with a knife or sword will choose a gun.
You are changing the debate to avoid the direct issue of firearms (along with occasional explosives) being the weapon of choice for hate crime. It is not a matter of 2nd amendments, or equivocation upon the concept of 'dangerous weapon' or diversion into 'slippery slope' arguments about losing other 'rights'. It is a matter of reducing the number of 'easy' crimes of violence made possible by lax gun laws and the difficulty of enforcing them.

Grieving families will not appreciate your arguments.....

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:58 AM

Nor will the hundreds of thousands of police officers, social workers, churches, and other individuals and organizations that deal daily with the aftermath of unfettered access to high powered weaponry by anyone who happens to want it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:38 AM

I'd eliminate the right to bear arms straight away.

I'd re-cast the freedom of speech stuff - the absence of prior restraint in libel is a gross anomaly, on a worldwide scale.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:36 AM

[Maybe a mod could post links to the several hundred times we have debated "Keep And Bare Arms" here, and we could return to the topic.]

I did not realize, until Friend Azizi posted, that the murdered guard was Black - I don't watch TV news where his picture would have been displayed. I agree that this makes the entire situation even more tragic.

Someone earlier said, if I understood correctly, that he saw this as another case of the right-wing against progressives. I disagree. While the murderer may well have been on what we call the right-wing of the political spectrum, there are many many more people with similar political and economic beliefs who would never dream of committing such a crime. It just seems to me that this is a case of a bigoted old man (88?) who may have seen his end in sight and wanted to strike a blow for his particular cause, nauseating as that cause is, before it was too late. I suppose he would have been much happier if he could have killed a Jew instead.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:00 AM

He wasn't out to get a "progressive"; he was out to get someone, anyone, who wasn't an "aryan" white. He headed for a site that is a prime symbol of one of the locuses of his hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:23 AM

"I did not realize... that the murdered guard was Black - I agree that this makes the entire situation even more tragic."



                                  Why?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:44 AM

I would perhaps not have chosen the phrase "more tragic", Rig but I agree that at the least it is infuriating that this hatefilled old man got to kill a member of a race he despised. Better, imo, if a Black person had killed HIM.

But I guess it is just my anger speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:45 AM

With two kids in school, in the DC area, we are very aware of the fact that from April to June, the museums and galleries on the Washington Mall are full of groups of school kids--you have to consider the possibility that children were his intended target--

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:46 PM

Since the shooting happened about 15 miles from me, as the crow flies, I saw lots of reports on it, including pictures of the victim as soon as they had one.

It is simply a fact that many guards at local museums ARE black...which made the shooter's 'hate' easier to manage. I have no idea what he'd have done if he encountered 2 white guards. They say he took 2 steps inside, lowered his rifle, and began shooting. Maybe he had scouted the museum earlier...*shrug*. He certainly knew he wouldn't get far with a rifle, and had to do whatever he did quickly. They say he lad lists of other buildings in his car...perhaps he just chose this museum as a symbolic place....if he survives, we may find out.
The real issue is: with this man's history, and the vitriolic posts on web sites, WHY was he not watched and 'constrained' better? I know...too many to follow. still.............

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 01:16 PM

Yesterday there were approximately 50 murders in the United States.

Will somebody please explain why we heard nothing about the other 49?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM

Bit disenguous, pdq? ALL of those murders were reported upon- in their own communities. Are you objecting to this one because you don't agree that it is more significant on a cultural basis?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:05 PM

This was a terrorist act, carried out at a national monument--a high value target for Al Qaeda and the like, and protecting them was supposed to be top priority for Homeland Security--

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,MarkS (on the road)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:25 PM

"The entire last part of the 20th century was marked with right winged people assasinating progressives..."

Er,

Lee Harvey Oswald was an avowed communist
Sirhan Bishara Sirhan a Palestinian

Hardly right wing.

This fellow in Washington is an avowed socialist who wrote the christianity was a jewish plot promulgated by Paul of Tausus (aka Saint Paul) to overthrow Rome!

This is real hard to put into the American context of Right/Left identification.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:52 PM

No, Mark... But look who got assasinated??? All progressive/liberals... And also, fir the one millionth time, what exactly was Oswald's beef with JFK and Sirhan's with RFK??? I mean, let's get real here... Other than minor political differences niether Sirhan or Oswald had all that much motive... Hmmmmmm??? I don't see the kind of rabid hatred as a motivating force in either Oswald or Sirhan... Or James Earl Ray, for that matter... These folks weren't memebers of fringe rightie groups, I'll admit, but something triggered them... I think that something is the CIA... I think that all of these assasins were CIA created...

There is a theory that the CIA has folks who are so brainwashed and stoked that they will do what they are ordered... That kinda expalins the lack of motivation on the assasins parts in the 60's assasinations... I mean, let's get real here... You don't appreciate but can see the motivation is yesterday's killing... It came from this man's heart (or lack thereof...)... I mean, this guy had a track record... Ray, Oswald and Sirhan didn't... All of them just came out of nowhere, so to speak...

Okay, I'll admit that I'm not 100% on the CIA... The FBI mighta had it's hand in it, too... But between them, they had JFK, RFK and MLK assasinated... And they represented the right wing in the 60s...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:29 PM

Did Arthur Bremer work for the CIA, too? How about John Hinckley, Jr.? Or John Patler?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:25 PM

Who assasinated the 3 best progressive leaders of the 60's, art??

That is the bottom line here...

John Hinkley, BTW, has an alibi... He was nuts for a movie star... Hardly a comparision to what went on with JFK, FRK and MLK assasinations...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:30 PM

No, not a comparison, but there is not even a spark of proof that the FBI, CIA, WPA or NASA were involved in any of those murders.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:45 PM

I would perhaps not have chosen the phrase "more tragic", Rig but I agree that at the least it is infuriating that this hatefilled old man got to kill a member of a race he despised. Better, imo, if a Black person had killed HIM.

That's the most openly, grossly, racist piece of hate speech I've ever seen on Mudcat.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Neil D
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:11 PM

My wife was watching news coverage of the event. She told me that not only was his victim black but all three of the EMS first responders who saved the evil man's life were also black. I think I'd have let the bastard bleed out myself, but these dedicated professionals did what there job regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Janie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:50 PM

Peter (Midchuck), I don't follow your reasoning. Would appreciate you clarifying what it is about Ebbie's post that you find racist.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:12 PM

Probably not the best phrased thing Ebbie has ever said, but admittedly said in frustration and anger.

There really are some individuals, of whatever color, that the world would be better off without; this one is still alive; his innocent victim isn't. I would have much preferred it if the guard, or any other black person,or anyone else, had managed to get off the first shot.

I'll stand by that wording, and I suspect that it isn't that much different from Ebbie' intent.
                              Dean

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Janie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:47 PM

I would much rather the first shot not have been fired at all.

But it was.

It is so hard, some times to deal with the reality of irrational and murderous acts fueled by hatred so irrationally intense that both the perpetrator and others consumed with hatred see it as justified, and are willing to sacrifice their own lives on that altar, or grant the status of martyrdom to those that do. Hatred mascarading as a principled stand.

There is no way to completely protect society from this.

Even knowing that, we must still try.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:25 AM

Thanks, Dean.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:19 AM

Peter (Midchuck), I don't follow your reasoning. Would appreciate you clarifying what it is about Ebbie's post that you find racist.

White killing Blacks = bad.
Black killing Whites = good.

That's how I read it, anyway. If she meant something else, maybe one or the other of us, or both, suffered a communication failure. But I got the impression that she thought, if a _Black_ whacko had killed some _White_ guards, that would have been no big deal.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:11 AM

"White killing Blacks = bad.
Black killing Whites = good."

Oh, nonsense! She didn't mean anything of the sort! No matter WHO made that post, if I was in doubt about the thrust,I'd have asked them to explain before I jumped on them......and with Ebbie, I'd never have worried.

Reading such a crazy tone into a post is the forum equivilent of 'carrying a chip on the shoulder'.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:06 PM

I know the guy was a nut-case, but it seems logical that if he went to the Holocaust Museum to do something dreadful, his beef would have been with Jews. So he walks in the door and shoots a black security guard. It's not impossible that the guard was a Jew, but the probablity wouldn't support that.
          I guess I'm just trying to make sense out of something that can't make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 12:46 PM

Oh, nonsense! She didn't mean anything of the sort! No matter WHO made that post, if I was in doubt about the thrust,I'd have asked them to explain before I jumped on them......and with Ebbie, I'd never have worried.

If she'd said, "Better one of the people he was shooting at had killed him," I'd have agreed with great enthusiasm. But she was implying that ANY Black person should have a license to kill any racist type. She didn't specify.

Reading such a crazy tone into a post is the forum equivilent of 'carrying a chip on the shoulder'.

Naw. It's just being the Devil's advocate. On this list, I tend to take conservative positions because it's crawling with knee-jerk liberals who don't really want to think through the issues. On lists that are crawling with knee-jerk conservatives who don't really want to think through the issues, I'm likely to take liberal positions.

It's more fun that way.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM

Playing Devil's advovate is usually entertaining only in person, or only to the one doing it. If it is not done very carefully, you can end up insulting or hurting someone. I rather prefer to debate my OWN views instead of presuming I can simulate someone else's well enough to make the dialogue meaningful.

And just to take that role myself, how can you tell a "knee-jerk" liberal from a careful, concerned citizen?

(hey...are there "knee-jerk" Libertarians & Devil's advocates?) ☺

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:17 PM

(hey...are there "knee-jerk" Libertarians...?)

Some of my best friends....

(When asked about my own politics, I generally respond "Libertarian with Socialist overtones." That's true enough, but it usually confuses the questioner enough that the subject gets dropped.)

P.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:56 PM

How can you tell a "knee-jerk" conservative from a careful, concerned citizen?

Same answer as the question "how can you tell a "knee-jerk" liberal from a careful, concerned citizen?"

If they react the way you would react, they are careful, concerned citizens. If they react is a way you do not support, they are dangerous extremists who should have all their rights removed to make it safer for decent, right-thinking people.


Right, BillD?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:10 PM

It's almost as if you remember Sidney J. Harris, bruce.

He was a columnist who did an occasional bit in which he listed the same 'thought' as spoken about one's self, 'present company', and 'him'.

"I am self-assured and confident."
"You are a bit taken with your own ideas."
"He is an arrogant know-it-all."

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:14 PM

almost.

But the point is the validity of that statement.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:37 PM

Why the Jews?

By Michael Gerson
Friday, June 12, 2009

It so happened that this week, on the day I wrote about Holocaust denial in the Middle East, a homegrown denier took a rifle into the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum -- an institution where I sit on the governing board. The museum counts about 1.7 million visitors each year who learn about the history of murderous racism -- and now one who decided to add to that history.

That day, out of curiosity, I did something I rarely do. I read the comments on my column on a number of Web sites that publish it. In addition to the normal political vituperation, the level of anti-Jewish feeling was appalling. The European genocide, some contended, was exaggerated by Jews for political purposes. Jews were behind the Bolshevik Revolution, the rise of Hitler and the outbreak of World War II. They control the newspapers, radio, television and book publishing. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is right to expose the Holocaust myth, they wrote, and Israel is perpetrating the real holocaust against the Palestinians.

Of course, these are the views of a small, self-selected group of the unbalanced -- hundreds out of millions. But the Internet allows these obsessions to gather in fetid pools, as James W. von Brunn (a prolific Web author) knew and exploited. The Internet has helped to create communities of malice.

The anti-Semitic community is varied in background and ideology. It includes both Internet Nazis and campus leftists carrying signs that read, "Jews = Nazis." The Rev. Jeremiah Wright recently blamed "them Jews" for blocking his access to President Obama. A conservative Web site recently included a forum on Holocaust denial (before it was exposed and removed). One posting read: "The same blinded people that believe that the Germans intentionally killed Jews -- also believe the myth of the Anne Frank Diary."

Marginalized Western anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers have gained influence in unexpected places. In 2002, Libya's dictator Moammar Gaddafi awarded his (less than coveted) Gaddafi International Human Rights prize to Roger Garaudy, a French Holocaust skeptic. Ahmadinejad's 2006 conference of deniers featured David Duke as a keynote speaker.

For some Americans, anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are akin to a shameful hobby -- like collecting old racist knickknacks or Nazi memorabilia. But these ideas are not harmless, because they can inspire an angry, obsessed bigot who sets out on a June morning to kill Jews -- and murders an African American man who had a wife and young son.

The durability of anti-Semitism is a horrifying marvel of history. Sara Bloomfield, the director of the Holocaust Museum, observes: "Anti-Semitism has existed with and without Christianity. With and without the right wing. With and without the left wing. With and without democracy. With and without economic problems. With and without globalization. With and without a Jewish homeland."

Why the Jews? It is a question that must often have been asked during pogroms and in ghettos and in prison camps. There are many answers, none of them adequate. Anti-Semitism in the West has undeniable theological roots -- the distortion of a faith, founded by a Jewish teacher, to justify the persecution of Jews. Anti-Semitism has been fed by government incitement and by blood libels that never seem to die. It found resonance in various forms of nationalism and nativism, in the bent science of eugenics, and eventually in totalitarian ideology.

David Berger, the editor of "History and Hate," writes, "We shall never fully understand anti-Semitism. Deep-rooted, complex, endlessly persistent, constantly changing yet remaining the same, it is a phenomenon that stands at the intersection of history, sociology, economics, political science, religion and psychology."

But we do know that anti-Semitism has always been a kind of test -- a reliable measure of a nation's moral and social health. When the rights of Jews are violated, all human rights are insecure. When Jews and Jewish institutions are targeted, all minorities have reason for fear. And by this standard, America has cause for introspection.

The museum that von Brunn assaulted is the best answer to his hatred -- the aging survivors who still volunteer, photographs revealing the vanished lives of the dead, the happy pictures drawn by murdered children. Not far from where von Brunn entered the museum, there is a black wall inscribed with a quotation: "All men are created equal . . . they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights . . . among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

This is what anti-Semitism ultimately must deny, and this is the reason anti-Semitism must always and everywhere be confronted.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:44 PM

No...the statement is a mediocre generalization. ...and the 2nd part is a silly caricature of anything resembling reason.
I sometimes have disputes with folks who HAVE carefully thought thru their ideas and can defend them with great clarity and logic.
I may disagree with their basic premises, but I can respect their position.




Then, at other times.......................................

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:46 PM

"and the 2nd part is a silly caricature of anything resembling reason."

And I thought you had not noticed! Sarcasm seems to be more effort than it is worth, from the results it gets here...

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:51 PM

"'The durability of anti-Semitism is a horrifying marvel of history. Sara Bloomfield, the director of the Holocaust Museum, observes: "Anti-Semitism has existed with and without Christianity. With and without the right wing. With and without the left wing. With and without democracy. With and without economic problems. With and without globalization. With and without a Jewish homeland.'"


                      That's the question. Are there answers?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM

"Sarcasm seems to be more effort than it is worth, from the results it gets here... "

It depends on the source, the context and the 'crafting' of sarcasm. When we have only text, and no voice tone or body language, things can get muddy.

(you note I sprinkle my posts with italics underlining, bold type, CAPITALS for emphasis, 'single quotes' for indicating a 'verbal inflection' of a lesser degree than SHOUTING, **asterisks** for even more emphasis, and sometimes **ALL** of them!!! (along with a few exclamation points at odd times) I like my posts to read as much like listening to me 'live' as possible. I even toss in a ☺ smile or **grin** when I want to be sure my intent is not mistaken.
   Sarcasm in print, as tempting as it can be at times, is often missed and, if seen, is taken as gratuitous insult or bad logic.

If you are regularly misunderstood, it may NOT be all your audience's fault.. ☺☺☺

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:27 PM

US museum shooter son slams father's 'cowardice'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090612/ts_alt_afp/usshootingcrimeholocaust_20090612214407

The son of white supremacist James von Brunn, who shot a guard at the entrance of Washington's Holocaust museum this week, slammed the "cowardice" of his father's actions on Friday.

"My father's actions are unforgivable," Erik von Brunn, 32, said in a statement to ABC News. "I do not expect, nor will I accept forgiveness for what he has done," he said.

Erik's 88-year-old father reached the entrance of the Holocaust Memorial Museum in the US capital on Wednesday, raised a .22 caliber rifle and fatally shot African-American museum guard Stephen Tyrone Johns, 39, in the chest.

Security guards returned fire, shot von Brunn and prevented him from entering.

Von Brunn will face murder charges for the crime, officials have said.

"I cannot express enough how deeply sorry I am it was Mr Johns, and not my father who lost their life," the shooter's Florida-based son said.

Erik von Brunn said his father's hatred for racial minorities and Jews destroyed his family, and resulted in the divorce between him and Erik's mother...

Erik von Brunn had blunt words for racists and anti-semites who idolize his father's actions.

"For the extremists who believe my father is a hero: it is imperative you understand what he did was an act of cowardice," he said.
"To physically force your beliefs onto others with violence is not brave, but bullying. Doing so only serves to prove how weak those beliefs are. It is simply desperation, reminiscent of a temper tantrum when a child cannot get his way."

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:28 PM

Perhaps it would be better in such a subject to forgo sarcasm, to say what one means as carefully as possible and mean what one says.

Regarding guns: if guns are illegal only criminals will have guns. Hitler outlawed guns... Countries with the most stringent gun laws do NOT, statistically, have the least murders. Guns/weapons are not the problem. People are. Attitudes are. Mind your own and pass it on.

Re the CIA/FBI issue: it is known that CIA knew the attacks were being planned on the WTC. They knew the culprits and were watching them, and allowed them to move in and out of the U.S. at will. The info was not shared. Who are the criminals? I do not doubt for one moment that one or both of these were involved in those assassinations, as Bobert suggests, regardless of who was blamed publicly.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 08:30 PM

OOPs! Sill I be locked out next? Then we will know, eh, Bobert??

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,Sneakin' in...
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:04 PM

Who knows how many posts I have left before ***they*** lock down on my computer... Seems as if ***they** have effectively locked down on my handle so far... If I try to post anything under my handle or as "logged in" I get "access denied"...

Hmmmmmmm??? BB gets to froth off at the mouth freely here and I get "Acess Denied" and have to go underground to post... Purdy fucked up!!!

But, hey, seein' as I might have one last post that get's thru... How about Fox having it's license pulled??? Fox promotes hate and lets folks out there who think it's okay to assasine progressives that that is just fine in their book... The airwaves are owned by all of US and I reject the idea that they can be used to promote right winged terrorism...

Now that should polish off my ISP as well as my handle... Don't wnat no friggin' commies here in this nice little comfy folk musicans web site, except of course the righties who can froth at the mouth 24/7...

B**ert

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:11 PM

Bobert-

"If they react is a way you do not support, they are dangerous extremists who should have all their rights removed to make it safer for decent, right-thinking people."


I hope you get back on. But now that Obama is in charge, you had best double-plus right-think only.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:13 PM

last was me

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 09:47 PM

That is good to hear, Azizi. Would that those who would benefit from hearing it had the ears to listen. I pray that at least some of them do.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 10:42 PM

"...it is known that CIA knew the attacks were being planned on the WTC. "

Please...not more of this! The CIA had ***general indications*** that someone 'over there' had ideas about causing some sort of damage/attack 'somewhere'. They have SAID this! They did NOT have specific knowlege of any details of any plans.

I cannot comprehend how these exaggerated stories get passed around and built up by folks who have no personal information about the inner secrets of the CIA, NSA, FBI   ...maybe it's the GOP and AARP spreading rumors... *sigh*

There seems to be something in the brain that makes us go: "There's stuff happening that upsets me. I don't like it...we durned well pay folks to stop it, so if they don't, they are either in cahoots or dumb or lying or all three!"

What I DO know about conspiracy theories is that they get attention and sell books.....

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Songster Bob
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:33 PM

There's something happening, but you don't know what it is,
Do you, Mr. Jones?

Now that we've had our requisite Bob Dylan reference, let's get down to brass tacks (or, as the anti-tax zealots would have it, "brass tax").

This guy is a nut. A Right-Whinge nut, but a nut. Less a nut than the guy who shot Dr. Tiller, and also less likely part of a conspiracy than that one, but still a nut.

But to see how this is playing out, all the Right-whingers on the air are claiming that he's a lefty, and that all the hate speech you hear is lefty in origin. Hell, they even have a book out, "Liberal Fascism," which claims that Nazi Germany was essentially liberal (after all, the party is "National Socialist," right)? Believe it or don't, but that's what is being peddled. Not many takers, of course, but the more they make those claims, the more they muddy the waters, and the more they are able to do that "dog whistle" thing, where key words are signals to those "in the know," but inaudible to the average Joe. The atmosphere is polluted with ad hominem attacks and skewed logic (liberal fascism?) and the society is lessened, made more toxic, with their poison.

And "you best double-plus right-think" is an example I had hoped I wouldn't see here.

I've had enough. I'm not going to leave or anything, but I won't take part in a discussion where people jump to conclusions or make off-hand belittling comments of the sort we've seen here.

Now that I've said that, it occurs to me that there are few other kinds of discussion when politics is involved. Sigh.

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 11:51 PM

I'm with you, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 12:52 AM

Most guns, rifles and shotguns as well as handguns, were outlawed by the Weimar government in 1928. Hitler actually eliminated many of these restrictions several years after he came to power in 1933.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 09:45 AM

"This guy is a nut. A Right-Whinge nut, but a nut."

                Songster Bob is right about that, but one has to wonder: how many 88 year old Right-Wing Nuts are out there. With nothing much left to lose, they could become a real tool for their cause.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 10:04 AM

A scary question, Riginslinger, though I doubt if they're really that significant compared to the total of younger, more able-bodied, haters.
As a person who generally portrays religion as the root of all evil, did you happen to notice that von Brunn appears to be an anti-religious vicious hatemonger? Besides his antisemitism, he has characterized Christianity as an evil conspiracy.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 03:15 PM

"But I got the impression that she thought, if a _Black_ whacko had killed some _White_ guards, that would have been no big deal." Midchuck

My apologies. I obviously phrased my reaction badly. That is not at all what I (thought I) was implying. I had no thought at all of a Black whacko killing White guards. That's a bit of a stretch even though I wasn't clear on what I did mean.

What I thought I was saying is that it seems intolerable to me that this hatefilled old man was able to kill a member of a race that he hated, that he can now congratulate himself on his success.

On the other hand, if a Black man had been the means of the old man's death while stopping him in his mission that would have been a rich irony.

"I cannot express enough how deeply sorry I am it was Mr Johns, and not my father who lost their life," the shooter's Florida-based son said." from the article above

And that's all I have to say about that. *g*

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 09:00 AM

"...though I doubt if they're really that significant compared to the total of younger, more able-bodied, haters."

             To be sure there are many more younger ones, but the over-eighty guys might feel they have less to lose. They might be a few ticks away from becoming suicide bombers.


    "...von Brunn... has characterized Christianity as an evil conspiracy."


             It can certainly be used for evil purposes, and has been.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 10:51 AM

I know yer heart, Eb, and most other folks do as well...

Beubear (out of purgatory)

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 02:43 PM

Thanks, Beauberry.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 05:43 PM

You have to go back to Huey Long in the 30's to find the last rightie that was assasinated

Pedantic correction - not quite true. It was in August 1967 that he American Nazi, George Lincoln Rockwell was assassinated. Mind you the man found guilty of the killing was another American Nazi, so it doesn't really undermine Bobert's basic point there.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 08:38 PM

George Wallace. Although he was shot in 1972 but didn't die until 1998, his paralysis from the gunshot would is considered to have contributed to his eventual death.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 09:44 PM

I wonder how many assissinations were caused by assualt rifles or the kinds of guns that the left-wing-looneys want to ban?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jun 09 - 09:54 PM

Spoken like a truly good southern Oregon survivalist, Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 12:42 AM

Being accused of being a Southern Oregonian is a handle I'd wear proudly. "Survivalist" implies a life-style I'm not familiar with personally.
             President Kennedy was assassinated--if we are to believe the tabloids--with a rifle of World War I technology. In fact, I would think Oswald's rifle would fit the description of "the weapon of choice" for would-be political assassins, a bolt action rifle with modern optics, accurate to a 1,000 meters. Advancements in optics would have much more to do with a completed mission than the rifle itself, in my opinion.
             Probably the most discouraging thing about the people who want to ban guns is their unwillingness to familiarize themselves with the subject of which they are suppose to be talking. It's no different than the self-imposed ingorance of the pro-gun lobby suporters on the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 02:50 AM

"Lee Harvey Oswald used a 6.5 x 52 mm Italian Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle, serial number C2766. The rifle was sold as military surplus through Klein's Sporting Goods Company." according to Wiki

This is what I object to, Rig: "...the kinds of guns that the left-wing-looneys want to ban?"

Is that any better than "right-wing nuts"?

Surely there are better terms.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 07:00 AM

I really don't think that too many left wing lunies are as concerned about the type of guns that are available as they are about to whom these weapons are made available... That's the crux of our argument, Rigs... The assault weapon is just a side bar that is more of a distartion than anything else...

The issue here, as far as this left wing kunie" is concerned is a layer of transparancy, accountability and saftey training of gun owners...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:48 AM

" Probably the most discouraging thing about the people who want to ban guns is their unwillingness to familiarize themselves with the subject of which they are suppose to be talking."

Familiarize in what way? Buy some? Take shooting lessons? Read all the posts from beardedbruce and several other 'knowledgeable' gun owners?
   How much do I need to know to add to my store of information about how many probable illegal weapons are out there? ...and how many legal ones are in the hands of folks who are barely competent? I also can look at the statistics of how many deaths & injuries (including suicides) occur each year as a result of of stupid or criminal USE of guns. I am also 'familar' with lax laws, such as in Virginia, that allow MORE stupid & criminal types to easily increase their collections and/or SELL them in other states nearby.....like right across the river in Maryland where *I* live, or in DC where the latest incident occured.

Familiarize? Perhaps YOU will tell me what more I need to know.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM

"lax laws, such as in Virginia, that allow MORE stupid & criminal types to easily increase their collections and/or SELL them in other states nearby.....like right across the river in Maryland where *I* live, or in DC where the latest incident occured."

The LAWS do NOT allow them to sell them in other states.

In fact they cannot even transport them THROUGH DC, legally.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 04:15 PM

"I really don't think that too many left wing lunies are as concerned about the type of guns that are available as they are about to whom these weapons are made available..."


                So Nancy Pelosi can drive around in an Abrams Tank, but we'll only let David Duke walk around with a sling-shot. I'd say Dick Cheney's got a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 06:47 PM

? I am uninformed.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 06:51 PM

Just satire that didn't work, sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM

Yeah, what Bill said... I am a gun owner... I learned gun safety thru the NRA... Ain't about me being uneducated...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 07:53 PM

Well, a small point might be when the news media goes off on so-and-so being armed with an AK-47, when it's often just some semi-automatic that looks kind of military, or when an Eastern Block military is actually using AK-74's.

             It's not that is such an important mistake, it's just that they take so much pride in making it that seems to label them idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 08:13 PM

gee, bruce....that was part of my point. The criminals don't seem to care much about those laws. I am interested in ***PRACTICAL*** ways to control things, not recitations of the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 08:37 PM

Yeah, we're like a cancer patient and we see the doctor and he says that that if ya' do chemo and radiation that you have the best cahnche to survive yer cancer... Except we don't take the doctors advice and do nothin' or maybe some of the chemo???

That's purdy much what we are doing now... We aren't trying stuff because there isn't any argument that puts the survival rate at 100%... So we do nothin' hoping that things will get better???

Thinks ain't getting better... Unfettered access to guns by the ***wrong people*** has made US less safe and made us a very violent country... The cost to our nation on having this unfettered access to guns has not been, to the best of my knowledge, figured but if it were, I would guess it to be half a trillion dollars a year... Just think about the number of hospital days a year are spent on gun shot vitums... Or the cost on law enforcement... Trials... Lawyers... Families having to live withpout slain members...

Sometimes tyhe only thing that folks think about is money and right now the only folks makin' out with their constant lie that Obama is going to outlaw guns are the arms manufacturers, their PR firm the NRA and the gun shop owners...

In the words Walter Cronkite, "That's the way it is."...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 09:56 PM

I've made my views on the "gun rights" situation clear before. I won't belabor that.

But I'd just like to put in a word on behalf of accurate history.   Huey Long a "Righty"?   Only if you want to also include Lenin, Stalin and Mao in that category also.   He gathered power to himself, fine.   But in the 30's he was accused of being a Communist.   Wrote "Every Man A King". One of the original "Power to the People" types--though he felt the power had to flow through him, partly in response to tough corporate opposition.   FDR thought of Long as the threat on the Left.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 10:27 PM

Ron - It would seem to make sense that if one thought of Lenin, Stalin, and Mao as threats, they would think of them as threats on the Left.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Midchuck
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM

There was a probable murder in Brattleboro yesterday. According to the paper, it was the SECOND intentional murder IN THE STATE, for this year up to now.

Vermont has the most liberal gun laws in the US - or maybe I should say the most conservative. You can't get a concealed carry permit because there aren't any, because there aren't any restrictions on concealed carry in the first place. You just do it, if you want to. I never have, because I never felt the need. When I go to New York City or Boston, I feel the need strongly, but I can't.

Maybe the availability of guns might not be the primary cause of murder?

Incidentally, both the two murders in VT up to now were stabbings.

If knives are outlawed, only outlaws will have knives.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:02 AM

Low murder rate in Vermont is not because of easy gun access....it's because it is VERMONT.
There are just different demographics up there. No large urban areas where poverty mingles with affluence.

   But don't fret...Vermont will gradually accrue a population that sees how 'useful' guns are when folks disagree or want their neighbor's TV. You'll have 'interesting' statistics in a few years.

(prove it? I can't prove it, but I'd make a small bet....and hope I lose.)

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:04 AM

"Low murder rate in Vermont is not because of easy gun access....it's because it is VERMONT. There are just different demographics up there."

                So it's not the gun laws that need to be changed, it's the demographics. I knew the right answer would pop up on this thread sooner or later.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 12:49 PM

My, what interesting ways you can 'spin' a simple comment.

"Demographics is as demographics does."... said the wise Philosopher.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:02 PM

Rig--

Go to the head of the class: re: Lenin, Stalin etc.

And so was Huey Long considered a threat--on the Left, not the Right.   Which is exactly my point--in my continuing, sometimes lonely, struggle to bring historical accuracy to Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:32 PM

Doesn't much matter, Ron... The original statement that I made was that the righties seem to be the ones who think that offing the lefties is perfectly okay... Forget Huey Long... The point still stands...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:35 PM

Fine, the point stands. I'm still interested in historical accuracy. Can't help it. It's my curse.

As long as all parties realize Huey was not a "Righty", let the bell ring for the next round on the real topic.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:43 PM

Okay... Maybe a Huey Long thread would be interesting... He was, afterall, a real character...

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 09:44 PM

One might make the observation that while all of these people seem to have something in common, Lenin was actually trying to do something positive for the ordinary people. He might have been misguided, but the others, it seems to me, were pretty much out for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 05:14 PM

One might make the observation that while all of these people seem to have something in common, Lenin was actually trying to do something positive for the ordinary people. He might have been misguided, but the others, it seems to me, were pretty much out for themselves.

Same applies to Hitler, only blaming Jews instead of Capitalists or the beorgeoisie

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:34 PM

Of course, there is a difference between blaming and killing. Besides, the bourgeoisie as still to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 09:29 PM

"is"

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 07:22 AM

Anybody who thinks Lenin was not responsible for quite a few deaths should start reading some history. For once.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:23 AM

Still being responsible for deaths is not the same as committing murder. Lincoln was responsible for a lot of deaths, so was Harry Truman.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:21 AM

...and any law school graduate could tell you the difference in what Lenin did and what Truman & Lincoln did.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 01:41 PM

True, Lenin didn't use nuclear weapons, of course, Lincoln didn't either.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:03 PM

"Lenin didn't use nuclear weapons". Thank you, Mr. Cutsier- than- thou.   Just let us know when you're interested in favoring us with more than classically facile and fatuous (look it up) remarks--and actually willing to try to discuss--anything.   Doesn't seem like it'll be anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:45 PM

Ron - I don't know why you insist on telling people to "look up" ordinary words. But if you want to lump Lenin in with the rest of them, it's all right with me. At least he tried to rid Eastern Europe of the scourge of religion. I think he deserves credit for that, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 10:55 PM

Congratulations to the poster--he maintains his perfect record of missing the point.   One might even think it's intentional. Well at least he knows what "facile" and "fatuous" mean. Good thing--that is virtually the only kind of posting he seems capable of.

Certainly remains blissfully ignorant of history.   But I suppose you can't expect more from a giant intellect who told us that Hitler had no choice but to be a mass murderer--after all, he was raised a Catholic.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 11:47 PM

Wow, when's blast off?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 11:49 AM

QED

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 01:17 PM

Lenin did NOT try to rid "Eastern Europe" of religion. He tried to impose a state religion known as Communism, which was (unfortunately 'is' in N Korea) a blend of state controlled economics with the culture of deification of the ruling class, in a word "totalitarianism". Folks like Orwell Koestler and Rand sussed it out pretty well in print.

The book "Eleni" takes some time to get down to specifics on what rural Greek life was under Communism, as well.

A nice Jewish lady tried to assassinate Lenin but only succeeded in shortening his life, which of course, led to Stalin.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 01:26 PM

Like I said, throw Lenin back in with the rest of them. History will sort it out.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jun 09 - 02:25 PM

"state religion" is exactly right.   Which is why I pointed out, in another thread, that atheism has been a disaster for the world-- since it makes it so easy for the leader of the country to be deified.   And since the leader of the country is then God, it's not so easy to contradict him--in anything.

See Stalin, Mao and Hitler--and now on a smaller scale North Korea. In Iran, however, which is not an atheist state. many people draw a distinction between Khomenei and Allah-- a distinction which is becoming more and more apparent these days.

Subject: BS: Security Guard Killer dies in Prison
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 12:20 AM

Did you see that the old white supremicist who killed the museum security guard died today? Pity. I would have loved to see him be challenged as to his beliefs.

Dies of natural causes.

Subject: RE: BS: Security Guard Killer dies in Prison
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 01:37 AM

Well all I can say is good riddance, but I do agree with you Ebbie....it would have been interesting to see him defended by a Jewish lawyer.