Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth

Subject: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 05:24 AM

The FAF launch at Sidmouth Folk Week was a great success. Here is an audio recording made on the day: http://www.archive.org/details/FolkAgainstFascismLaunchAtSidmouthFolkFestAugust2009.


And here is a video of the closing song, Country Life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9GVGI_A5nw

A piece about the launch appeared on The World Tonight on Radio 4 - it's still available for a few more days on Listen Again: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00lttsp.

There was also a related news article on the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8191094.stm

The launch was one of the highlights of Sidmouth Folk Week, with an hour-long concert jam featuring Spiers and Boden, Eliza Carthy, Jim Moray, Dogan Mehmet, Steve Knightley, Pete Coe, Saul Rose, Maclaine Colston and MCd by Paul Sartin. Apart from the political message, which came across loud and clear, it was a bloody great gig!

At the launch, we talked about FAF Week, which will take place from 23 April (St George's Day) through 2 May (okay, slightly more than a week, but it means we can have two full weekends of activity!) We hope to hold a big, high- profile national event during this time, but we'd also like FAFfers all over the country to organise their own gigs, events, fetes, dance-outs, village hall parties, ceilidhs, and whatever else you can think of. These events will not only bring the FAF message to a wider audience in your towns and communities, but will be a positive response to the BNP's stated desire to co-opt the traditional English holidays of St George's Day and May Day.

At the launch we also announced a FAF logo for CD covers, which will allow artists to take a positive stand against their music being appropriated by the BNP. This is something that has been welcomed, and several high-profile folk aritsts are already planning to incorporate it into forthcoming albums.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: steve_harris
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 05:51 AM

This event didn't work for me. It had a line of famous musicians on stage who each said a few words and played a piece. After the 4th, I left.

I was hoping for someone (possibly of no musical ability at all) would do a good job of explaining the issue.

Logos and famous people are all very well but I'd prefer fact and argument

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 05:58 AM

A bunch of fascist thugs are muscling in on and attempting to misappropriate English music for their own vile, racist purposes.
English musicians deplore this and are fighting back.
What's hard to understand?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: steve_harris
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 06:35 AM

A bunch of fascist thugs are muscling in on and attempting to misappropriate English music for their own vile, racist purposes.<\i>

Thank you for that calm and detailed statement of the facts. You have utterly convinced me.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 06:37 AM

I think Steve Harris is making an honest and quite reasonable observation (not that I was there btw.). I'm sure the organisers will be open to hearing constructive suggestions and observations, for the arranging of future events.

But I think it's a subject which raises quite a lot of complicated issues (as we see from threads on this forum), and contentious ones. One Hour is quite a tight slot. It sounds to me like it was a fairly short launch show, where the focus was simply on the music and simply having fun. I think that's quite reasonable too, even though it won't necessarily satisfy all.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 06:37 AM

PLease can this go below the line to join the rest of the hot air being blown on this subject?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 06:39 AM

Mailing list sign-up at the (as yet single page) website, http://www.folkagainstfascism.com/.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:30 AM

First link from the OP doesn't seem to work for me.

Any more YouTubes from the show?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:37 AM

Try this.

It's an AUDIO link.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 08:23 AM

Diane is as usual correct. John MacKenzie is as usual almost unbelievable. It is curious that Mr Harris does not appear to appreciate any of the issues. Simple version follows.

The BNP took up distributing recordings made by (largely English) performers of folk and similar music and song through its merchandising arm (Excalibur). It did so by buying the recordings wholesale. The wishes of the recording artists and where relevant composers were not taken into account, and many such people who were opposed to the BNP found their work, names, and images used as if they supported the BNP.

The BNP has a programme via related organisations of supporting and funding folk-related events - so that it can use the "essentially English" nature of them to inspire bigotry against those it does not find sufficiently English. The policy is set out in the BNP's own handbook for its activists.

The BNP has its own folk-alike singers (singer songwriters) like David Hannam who compose and perform contemporary folk-ish music that contains anti-immigrant bigotry.

THe BNP has cloned the identities of a considerable number of mudcat members who also perform folk and similar music and song, and presented those cloned identities as if they were supporters of the BNP.

The BNP is a neo-nazi party. Its principal policy is racial prejudice, but it is also crammed with criminals and through its links with organisations like "Redwatch" it supports the intimidation by violence of its opponents.

The preponderance of performers and creators of folk and folk-alike music and song wish to make it clear that they reject the platform of the BNP, and do not wish their work, names, or images to be exploited by that party in any of its works. They say (and rightly so) that the BNP is evil. They would find the use by the BNP of folk music and song (because of the bucolic, white-populated imagery, reminiscent of "the Haywain" painting, of traditional English and other British folk music and song) to symbolise a purer past, free from coloured immigration quite repulsive.

Nazi Germany adopted volkslieder as party songs. The same must not happen here.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 08:29 AM

If Steve Harris had stayed for more than 4 songs, he would have heard the talky bit. Or he could have picked up a flyer in the foyer, which explained the ideas behind the project.

My original idea was to have a more discussion-based event, but the musicians and the MC agreed the final format. Judging by the majority of the responses afterwards and the audience which steadily grew during the hour, it worked.

John, Joe Offer said that when there was some music-based activity around FAF to discuss, a new thread could be started above the line. Here it is. I hope it will continue to be about events and plans for FAF week in 2010 or about responses to the launch.

If it doesn't interest you, you don't have to read it.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 08:40 AM

Thanks for the link to Country Life Ruth, so sorry I had to leave Sidmouth early.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 08:44 AM

Crow Sister
"But I think it's a subject which raises quite a lot of complicated issues (as we see from threads on this forum), and contentious ones."
Contention I can understand, but can you explain what is complicated about racism and anti-fascism?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Jemma Gurney
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 09:03 AM

Some other vague thoughts around this subject…

·        A professional artist can have one of two aims
o        The make music for making lots of money aim (KLF manual etc)
o        The make music that is your passion aim
o        (That's not to say that following the second aim can't lead to the first aim result, and obviously it's not that black and white – there is lots of grey too, but…)

·        Lets assume most folk musicians are working along the lines of aim 2.

·        That means their music has a personal edge to it. They are putting a bit of what they stand for in this world out there with their music.

·        That music is being used by an organisation that they don't agree with.

·        Most of the folkie world doesn't live on folk internet forums. Let alone those listening to said organisation's (rather tabloid-esq) publicity.

·        The folk against fascism group is giving artists other avenues to publicly state that they are not in agreement with this organisation, despite them using their music. The organised logo (like the point of any logo) aims to give a clear, united format, which is simple in announcing its aim.

Well done Joan (and unnamed others) – for both putting this together, and for getting the bbc to do too a story on it that didn't make me cringe once (something very rare for me when I normally listen/read media reports on folk!)

Jems

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 09:27 AM

I wasn't there myself as I was taking part in the Workshops concert. However 4 songs is probably at least 15 or 20 minutes into the event. It strikes me that's possibly a bit late to get around to the "talky bit". They should have got to the point a bit sooner. How many others lost interest besides Steve Harris?

It looks as if the organisers may have assumed too much knowledge on the part of the audience. However most people aren't on internet forums and may be blissfully unaware of the issues here. You can't rely on people picking up flyers, especially when they've gone to an event which is supposed to be launching a campaign. They'd expect to be told what it was about. When I saw it in the programme I was actually expecting there to be more talk than music.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 10:01 AM

Sorry, I don't wish to denigrate the sincere feelings behind some of the sentiments expressed here, but talking about things, never actually gets anything done.
Joining organisations is all very noble, but changes nothing. While all it does on this forum is attract undesirables to cause trouble.
I detect a fair degree of smugness in some of the posts, and I am quite sure that all of those who joined up would not turn out and actually do anything concrete.
So that's why I think a lot of it is hot air.
I also repeat my comment on another thread.
It seems like an odd place to campaign against a British organisation on a self selecting; US based web site, like this.
While the label Folk against Fascism is all very neat, this is not the place for the battle to be fought IMHO, it may even cause problems for this site.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 10:10 AM

This site may be US based, but this is the internet, it doesn't really matter where a site is hosted. This forum has an international membership, with a substantial number from the UK, Canada, Australia as well as other countries outside the US. There are literally hundreds of threads discussing UK issues, above and below the line, and hundreds more which attract contributions from all nationalities.

You are entitled to disagree with the opinions posted, or the effectiveness of the campaign, but to say Mudcat is an odd place to discuss it seems... odd.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 10:28 AM

Sorry Howard, but as I understand it, the FaF was formed to fight the BNP, which is a peculiarly British organisation.
One of the basic rules of warfare is to pick your battleground as carefully as you can, and I still think this is the wrong arena.
If the BNP and it's adherents, some of whom are obviously computer savvy, take it into their heads to try and sabotage Mudcat, then those who are the majority here, might suffer instead of the minority that is FaF.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: steve_harris
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 10:29 AM

Thanks for the long list of allegations, Richard. Some of them sound quite dreadful and almost unbelievable. This part caught my eye:

The BNP has a programme via related organisations of supporting and funding folk-related events - so that it can use the "essentially English" nature of them to inspire bigotry against those it does not find sufficiently English. The policy is set out in the BNP's own handbook for its activists

(Emphasis by me)

I've downloaded the "Activists & Organisers Handbook" from bnp.org.uk. Please can you point me to the relevant section?

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 10:35 AM

John, Mudcat is only one of several places where this message is being spread. It is relevant to the British folk community, which is why it is important that the message reaches this forum, especially the following, taken from my OP in this thread:

"At the launch, we talked about FAF Week, which will take place from 23 April (St George's Day) through 2 May (okay, slightly more than a week, but it means we can have two full weekends of activity!) We hope to hold a big, high- profile national event during this time, but we'd also like FAFfers all over the country to organise their own gigs, events, fetes, dance-outs, village hall parties, ceilidhs, and whatever else you can think of. These events will not only bring the FAF message to a wider audience in your towns and communities, but will be a positive response to the BNP's stated desire to co-opt the traditional English holidays of St George's Day and May Day."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 10:37 AM

The first song of the concert was Steve Knightley singing Roots and he clearly said why he was singing it and what the BNP were trying to do. Dogan Mehmet did the same a bit later. The leaflet was available in the foyer before people went in. The concert was clearly billed as 1 hour ... complaining that the talky bit didn't happen in the first few minutes is like walking out of a Ralph mctell concert at half time and complaining he hadn't sung Streets of London (which I assume he does as an encore!)
Derek

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 10:59 AM

Derek, if you say you're going to launch something and then don't get round to to it until a third of the way through the event, then you're going to lose some people's attention, especially those who aren't already supporters and who've gone there to find out what it's all about. You clearly lost the attention of at least one person - how many others did you lose?

All I'm suggesting is that next time you get to the point a bit sooner.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 11:01 AM

Sorry, basically I'm an apolitical animal, and it bugs me using Folk [What sort of folk?] as a vehicle for a political campaign.
The fact still remains that this is NOT a British based site. In fact I have heard mutterings in some quarters that SOME people in the US resent the British takeover of Mudcat, at times.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 11:08 AM

John, the idea of FaF is to prevent folk music being used as a vehicle for a political campaign.

Whatever it's origins, Mudcat is now quite clearly not a US site. There are extensive discussions on Irish and English music and performers above the line, and on non-US matters below the line. If it is to revert to being US-only, that is for Joe and the others to decide, but that would be regrettable as I think it does a lot to unite all of us, no matter where we live, through a shared interest in music.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 11:11 AM

If it bugs you that "f*lk" (whatever that is) is being used as a vehicle in a political campaign, then it surely should bother you that a fascist front is attempting to use it for just that.

That is the entire rationale of FAF.

If some Murkans "resent" English people being up in arms at such a threat to their music, that's tough. It won't stop me. Perhaps they could concern themselves a lot more with what global capitalism is doing to their music, if they can't be arsed to care about ours.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 11:15 AM

Well Diane, I'm not going to bandy words with you on the subject, essentially my feelings are this.
I come to Mudcat for Folk Music not politics.
PLUS
My original post still holds good, this thread should be in the BS section.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 11:18 AM

Howard, it's a U.S. based site, but it's never been U.S. only. Max has said something to the effect that Mudcat is whatever contributors make it.

Unfortunately the loud and persistent always win, but that's true of street corners and town hall meetings and just about everywhere else. Except maybe places like libraries, churches and places where politeness is enforced.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 11:20 AM

Where do you put the fag paper between them or, to put it another way, Which Side Are You On?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 11:27 AM

My last post referred to the mythical division between music and politics. There isn't one.

In my public library, the local branch of disaffected fascist emigre former East Europeans has been superseded by Haringey skinheads and layabouts, scraping their knuckles along the floor and keeping up a day-long tirade against the non-white. Quiet it ain't.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 11:56 AM

Jim, I might well be wrong, but my GUESS was that in a tight time slot the organisers may have decided to focus more on music than discussion. My point was that discussions of this sort so often become complicated and contentious, due to the poxy nit-picking, petty bickering and argument that threads like this descend into - which your comment to me has illustrated rather well. In my humble, it's all very not useful in the slightest. I was noteing that while S Harris (as someone who apparently didn't know what the campaign was about) *might* have been making a fair observation worth considering, but I also can also understand that the fairly tight one hour launch slot, being more musical than speech or discussion oriented. Anyway, feel free to reply and quibble, but I won't be. I'm not going to contribute anything further, that will aid this thread to follow the same path all the rest seem to. Sorry if I sound 'short' I'm in an irritable mood.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: steve_harris
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 12:05 PM

John, the idea of FaF is to prevent folk music being used as a vehicle for a political campaign.

And it's a particular campaign. Songs supportibve of Irish Nationalism or (say) Trade Unions are absolutely fine

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 12:15 PM

What would be Listmeister Harris's views on campaigns to stay on topic? I thought it was one which exercised him greatly and so he should know that his own list is degenerating into a tedious wrangle on how to pronounce "Shrewsbury".

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 12:20 PM

Steve Harris,

Just so I don't jump to the wrong conclusion would you just be able to confirm that you're not involved with or sympathetic towards the misappropriation of British folk music by the BNP?

Just so we know what we are dealing with.

Thanks

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 12:25 PM

John, if you take political protest out of folk music you are cutting away a huge trench of the genre. Like it or not, politics in its broadest sense (and especially leftist politics) has long been an intrinsic part of folk music, even before it was so-called . It is, therefore, perfectly acceptable to discuss this on a folk messsage board.

My take on FAF is that it has two basic aims:
1.        To stop the BNP from trying to use folk music to give credence to their nasty view of Englishness, especially when the artists they play have publicly stated their opposition to the BNP and its politics.
2.        To use folk music in its long-established role as a means of protest against the type of oppressive and repressive agenda that is peddled by the BNP.

As Diane says: which side are you on?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 02:16 PM

this excellent project will undoubtedly be used by musicians to further their own careers,if Folk against Fascism does achieve its aims that wont matter,if it doesnt it will be deja vu[remember Perform].
I hope Folk against Fascism is successful,and if anyone requires my services,you know where I can be contacted.
my website is temporarily out of action,[hopefully not the Fasicts],but it should soon be up and running.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 02:29 PM

"I come to Mudcat for Folk Music not politics..."
-John MacKenzie

Then you, sunshine, are in the wrong place.

"it bugs me using Folk [What sort of folk?] as a vehicle for a political campaign."
-John MacKenzie

Just one question: What have YOU been listening to then? As has been stated, more than once, folk music has been used as a vehicle for protest and social change, and observation for more years that I want to think about.

Stand and Be Counted!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 02:44 PM

Stupid argument. I could furnish you with thousands of folk songs that are not political. Like me

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 02:55 PM

I can't remember anything in the handbook concerning the BNP's policy towards folk music, but their policy towards folk customs is indeed set out there. It is positively hilarious on account of the number of mistakes.

Further news of their intended activism in folk customs came with their election leaflet and the announcement that they'd established something called The English Fair Fund. That was the pamphlet which showed photographs of a Polish Spitfire, and American models pretending to be British workers.

British jobs for British workers? Not where the BNP is concerned, evidently.


Steve Harris:-

I've downloaded the "Activists & Organisers Handbook" from bnp.org.uk. Please can you point me to the relevant section?

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 03:03 PM

".....that are not political. Like me:
-John MacKenzie

As an American friend of mine says, if you can"t run with the big dogs, stay on the front porch"

I'll tell you this, I, for one, am not going to sit by and allow scum of the earth, like the BNP, to steal and then destroy my heritage.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 03:15 PM

John McKenzie:- "I could furnish you with thousands of folk songs that are not political."

And I could furnish you with thousands of folk songs wich are. So what? In any event, FAF was started to prevent the BNP from staging a political take over of our folk heritage. If you want to keep politics out of folk music, it would be useful if you took the matter up with the BNP.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 03:36 PM

I am standing up to be counted as dead against all that the BNP stand for. I have no interest in run of the mill politics, a song is a song and the message within an be about anything it likes as far as I am concerned. I happen to prefer songs of past times and romantic songs, but many "political" songs move me greatly. Some of my favourite songs to sing are based on war and/or it's effect on people, but I don't sing these as a political statement as such.
Let's stop bickering about our own credibility and concentrate on keeping those BNP bastards away from "our" heritage.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 03:37 PM

I'm not going to let them do it either my anonymous friend, but joining silly groups isn't going to stop them either.
People need to get out on the streets, campaign against them in public, attend their election meetings and ask awkward questions.
Most important, vote against them, make your vote count by voting for the candidate most likely to beat them, forget political allegiances in the name of beating them. If that's how strongly you feel, that's what you need to do.
Not exchange idealistic posts in an obscure web forum. Which is not a political forum anyway.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 03:44 PM

"People need to get out on the streets, campaign against them in public, attend their election meetings and ask awkward questions"
- John MacKenzie

ummmm...I do believe that is EXACTLTY what FaF is doing...oh and is this
Folk Against Fascism launch, Sidmouth 07.08.09)
public enough for you...?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 03:52 PM

It's a start, and a lot better then penning righteous solecisms

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 03:55 PM

Well said Jamming...

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 03:59 PM

I do believe I'll continue with the "righteous solecisms " as well, anything to get the word out about the BNP and their ilk, mind you, I've been active in anti racist movements for a few years now, so I DO have the field experience.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: steve_harris
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 04:07 PM

@Banjiman: I do not support the BNP. However, I'm not jumping on a bandwagon and wearing a black T-shirt just because people who can sing better me say I should.

Instead, I'm asking questions to try and cut through the "spin" and clarify the issue. It seems to be difficult.

In contrast, if I go to the BNP web site, I can see their ideas and policies easily. I don't agree with them but they are doing a much better communications job!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 04:09 PM

The Nazis hi-jacked German folk music in the 1930s and as a result most Germans wouldn't touch it with the proverbial bargepole for generations. The BNP are trying to do the same with British folk music: personally, I care too much about it to allow them to do the same with it as the Nazis. The other things that they are doing the same as the Nazis are awful too, but that's not what, as I understand it, FAF was specifically formed to counter. That's why FAF is very relevant as a music thread: music its raison d'etre. It' doesn't claim to be a broad-church anti-BNP organisation as far as I can see, it's a specifically music-related one.

It's fairly clear that some of the contributers to this thread are pro-BNP, and I notice that "Steve Harris" didn't answer the very simple straightforward question posed to him and that "John McKenzie" describes FAF as a "silly group". Well, if you want to trade insults, we don't expect much better from somebody apparently in a silly country.

If the Brits have taken over an American board, maybe its because the Brits care more about their folk music than the Americans. Maybe. Even if we do often have strange ways of showing it.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 04:12 PM

OK, "Steve Harris" answered while I was posting. He claims to not support the BNP but is against the people who oppose them and are willing to get of their arses and do something. Any minute now he'll probably say "and some of my best frinds are black people." Mr Harris, we know your kind.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 04:24 PM

"I'm asking questions to try and cut through the "spin" and clarify the issue"
- Steve Harris

Maybe you should go
Here
and
Here

engage with and commit to..

black t-shirts are optional *LOL*

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 04:27 PM

I was at the Folk Against Fascism launch and found it inspiring!Thanks to all the musicians and others involved. Also I was very pleased that it was in the official programme so was well publicised!

As for Steve Harris and his comments above I would say ....you need to get out a bit more ...read up on the BNP and its roots in the vile and thuggish National Front...while you are at it find out about the earlier British Fascists like Oswald Moseley and his blackshirts.
While you are delving into that history read up [or even talk to eyewitnesses ] about the anti fascist struggles in the past.

The anti fascist slogan "Never Again!" is still as relevant as ever...no platform for nazis means on the cultural as well as the political stage!
ifor

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: steve_harris
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 04:28 PM

He claims to not support the BNP but is against the people who oppose them and are willing to get of their arses and do something

Ah, if you are not for us, you are against us? Good to see you know traditional arguments :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 04:34 PM

Let those who prefer the safe middle ground stay there, I quite honestly have no time for them, there is much important work to be done

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 04:42 PM

Let those who prefer the safe middle ground stay there, I quite honestly have no time for them, there is much important work to be done

That's a very civilised way of putting it, well done. I'd have simply gone for the righteously angry "f***off and die" myself ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: treewind
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 05:35 PM

Perhaps Steve Harris will understand better when hears that a new English ceilidh dance series has started up somewhere, turns up enthusiastically at the first night in his best dancing shoes and discovers it's being used as a propaganda and recruitment platform and run by the BNP. It could so easily happen - the strictly "English" focus of E-Ceilidh is exactly the sort of mindset that the BNP would like to divert to their own purposes.

They are already talking about running St George's day events, for example. Even just finding their leaflets at an established folk dance event or festival would be bad enough.

Better to be aware of the possibility and ready when it happens, and not a bad idea also (a) to make sure others are aware of it and (b) to make sure, if you are an organiser or performer, that you don't get tarred with the same brush. (I've seen it hinted at before on Mudcat: "English Music" = nationalist = racist...)

And Steve - these guys are ambitious and ruthless and there is no doubt about what they are up to. It really is not a time for sitting on the fence and saying things like "prove it" or "maybe".

I hate to get involved with politics, but I feel I'm having to defend my territory - and that's as a folk music performer, English music enthusiast and editor of a regional folk magazine.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 05:58 PM

There was an article in the Guardian this last week (I know...sometimes I glance at the Daily Mail while passing it in Waitrose though...!) about celebrities getting involved in politics and being listened to by dint of their fame alone. Why again is Angelina Jolie an ambassador for peace? I shse a particularly good speaker or qualified in any way other than being vaguely against something or other? Who knows?
I have often wished that musicians (BoNo????) would keep their mouths shut. She says. Types!!! Types with mouth closed!!!
It is enough for me to make up the numbers of people who are simply saying "no" when we have only an hour and a stage full of enthusiastic participants. You would have thought that one hour was enough out of anyone's time to give us a chance to have our little sit-in. You walked out????? Nice show of support for the cause! I do hope you explained to the audience and the people outside why as you left...
x e

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 06:37 PM

People need to get out on the streets, campaign against them in public, attend their election meetings and ask awkward questions.

If you are going to do as you suggest and you go along to a BNP election meeting and ask awkward questions can I suggest you take out good health insurance? Especially dental insurance.

And people are converging on Codnor this weekend to do exactly as you suggest.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 06:38 PM

But if you go back to Steve Harris's original post, what he was complaining about was that no one had explained what "the cause" is. Why should you expect people to stick around if you haven't done enough to grab their attention?

Not all folkies are on Mudcat or indeed any of the other folk-related forums. Not all folkies read the Guardian, believe it or not. At least one person at the event apparently did not know what it was all about, and didn't get it explained to him, so he left. Possibly others did too.

While everyone's patting themselves on the back about what a great event it was (and no doubt it was) it doesn't seem to have been 100% successful in communicating its message.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 06:40 PM

"we don't expect much better from somebody apparently in a silly country."

Bit of a racist remark Folknacious, maybe you're on the wrong team mate

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: steve_harris
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 06:54 PM

I do hope you explained to the audience and the people outside why as you left...

You seem to be saying that I should have shouted out that I was leaving and why????

I did the more usual thing of waiting for a gap between sonngs and leaving as quietly as possible.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 06:56 PM

But if you go back to Steve Harris's original post, what he was complaining about was that no one had explained what "the cause" is. Why should you expect people to stick around if you haven't done enough to grab their attention?

Let me get this correct in my own mind. The slogan "Folk Against Fascism Launch" did not explain what the event was about? A long line of famous folk performers giving their services for an hour for a cause is not enough to grab people's attention - at a folk festival?

And then Steve leaves early and complains that the facts were not explained?

Amazing it was good enough to attract the attention of Radio Four and its prestigious evening news programme but not good enough for Steve.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:03 PM

Here's an old (miss) quote that I have been forced to use too many times before:
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing."
...which is why these racist thugs have been democratically elected. And if we're going to deal with this democratically, an awful lot of people are going to have to take their arses down from the nice comfortable fence. I personally doubt whether the so-called folk community has enough clout to influence this directly, but in the words of the much-loved Ian Campbell, (your dad knew him) "by christ we'll have to try." I believe that this, above or below the line, is an appropriate forum, if only to examine our own thoughts.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: steve_harris
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:20 PM

And Steve - these guys are ambitious and ruthless and there is no doubt about what they are up to. It really is not a time for sitting on the fence and saying things like "prove it" or "maybe".

I find that statement quite terrifying - but perhaps not for the same reasons as you do :-(

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:23 PM

Page 28, under the heading "St George's Day"

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: steve_harris
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:36 PM

Amazing it was good enough to attract the attention of Radio Four and its prestigious evening news programme but not good enough for Steve

Ding! Of course! It was a "Media Event" and doubtless the BBC were properly briefed.

I was daft enough to think it was intended to inform the folk public.

Oops!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:56 PM

Folkiedave wrote: "The slogan "Folk Against Fascism Launch" did not explain what the event was about?"

Not on its own, no it doesn't. It doesn't explain why folk should against fascism - or rather (since that's obvious) what is happening now to cause this movement to be launched? If you've been following this on Mudcat, or Facebook or elsewhere, you may know the background. If you don't, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to expect it to be explained at the event. If no one gets around to doing that until at least a third of the way through, is it surprising that some people will lose interest beforehand?

"A long line of famous folk performers giving their services for an hour for a cause is not enough to grab people's attention - at a folk festival?"

It clearly grabbed Steve's attention enough to get him to go along, what it failed to do was to keep it once he got there.

Look, this isn't an attack on FaF (which I support) or the launch event. It's feedback that the event did not succeed in getting its message across quite as well as it might have done. Rather than attacking Steve, you might like to think about how the next event can be made even better and more effective.

No doubt Radio 4 were given a comprehensive media release to help them understand why the launch was taking place.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 07:57 PM

As I said earlier, there was a "talkie bit" about halfway through the event. Surely half an hour isn't all that long to wait if you are genuinely interested in finding out what something is all about. Steve Harris chose to leave, and then moaned that the point of the project wasn't explained to him. Howard J suggested that maybe he wasn't alone. Well, I was watching the event from all sides, both backstage and from the auditorium. I watched the audience grow, not shrink, as the event progressed, till about halfway through, the Ham was nearly full.

Steve, if you want to know what the project is about, look on the Facebook page. Read one of the leaflets that was about at the event (you did pick one up, didn't you?) Listen to the excellent programme that was made for Radio 4. Read the article from the BBC website. The message is perfectly clear for anyone who actually wants to hear it, and isn't simply interested in drawing attention to themselves through onanistic point-scoring on an internet messageboard.

Now then, can we please get back to the actual topic? I started this thread to give people access to the various links I posted in the OP, and also to make them aware of the plans for FAF week next year. If this interests you, please participate in the discussion. If not, please go and jump on some other Mudcat hobbyhorse (christ knows there are enough of them). Cheers.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 08:01 PM

"No doubt Radio 4 were given a comprehensive media release to help them understand why the launch was taking place."

No, someone from Radio 4 read and joined the Facebook site. That's where their involvement stemmed from. They had access to the same information as the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 10:06 PM

.....pickin on my newspaper....mutter mutter....
An hour was nothing out of my life. Twenty minutes, even less. And it was a bloody nice concert, even if I didn't sing my best. I don't understand what the problem is. I am not going to stand up and tell someone else why they should believe in something, why I'm right. I would expect someone walking out of a concert to be either having a rubbish time as far as the music is concerned or against the cause wholesale: I saw the audience as a show of numbers for a cause, not as an audience in this context. That's the way I work. It said nowhere in the programme that it was a lecture. On the other hand, there was lots of information around the immediate location and elsewhere and a small speech less than halfway through, and a load of good music.
I'm sorry you didn't get it Steve, we totally failed you. Without irony. Please let us know how we can get through to people like yourself in the future.
x e

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,MtheGM
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 02:59 AM

Think it worth remarking here something I have already mentioned on this site, on the Anti-Semitism thread - & also relates to the YouTube thread: Googling military marches the other day, I was amazed to find that a few mouseclix on RelatedVideosfrom The Old Grenadier played by the Scots Guards brought me to the Afrika Corps & Waffen SS Marches, complete with footage of Der Fuhrer & his acolytes taking the salute; & a few more bring one a veritable industrial·production plethora of Hitler-tributes, WhitePower propaganda vids, & god·knows what-all. Now, should we be campaigning to get these removed from YouTube, or do the principles of FreeSpeech & FreedomOfAccess take precedence here? What do Catters think?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:21 AM

I think Guest MtheGM should keep to the point and start another thread on this entirely unrelated subject.

****************

In just a few weeks before the launch, over 4,000 people publicly committed themselves to the ethos behind FAF. Obviously not all, myself included, were able to be in Sidmouth but we are doing stuff like picketting the BNP's vile "family picnic" this Saturday and preparing for the FAF week of events from St George's to May Day next year.

How dare John McKenzie dismiss this as a "silly group"? By doing so he is promoting the view from his fence of English music becoming as desecrated as German trad which dare not poke its nose out of university libraries because of lingering taints of 1930s nazism. Has he (or Listmeister Harris for that matter) tried to promote indigenous trad music in that country but been unsuccessful in getting them to perform anything much other than The Happy Wanderer (or Wild Rover)?

The announcement of a launch for FAF could scarcely be more self-explanatory, even for anyone who is not a Facebook user. To claim repeatedly not to know what it is about is tantamount to supporting the misuse of artists' recorded material for a purpose which they wholeheartedly do not endorse. Simples.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Captain Jack Sparrow
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:26 AM

"At the launch, we talked about FAF Week, which will take place from 23 April (St George's Day) through 2 May (okay, slightly more than a week, but it means we can have two full weekends of activity!) We hope to hold a big, high- profile national event during this time"

There has previously been a large scale event musical event during that late April time frame, which is the Greater London Authority organised Folk Concert in Trafalgar Square. Might be worth FAF contacting Boris Johnson and seeing if he would support giving that event a FAF theme. It is certainly high profile. Shiver my timbers! Billy Bragg and Boris sharing the same stage. There's a thought.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:40 AM

Reading much of the above, I can only guess how many people have not heard the following, believed to have been written by the German Pastor Martin Niemöller?

"First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me."

Believe it or not, English fascists tried to hi-jack the English Morris movement in the 1930's (something that C# House is not especially proud of!)

I recently wrote a letter to Musical Traditions on the threat of the Far Right. As I said there, quoting someone else, "We don't need new songs. Only the guts to sing the old ones" - just like Woody Guthrie & Peter Seeger did.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:04 AM

It seems to me that this subject falls into two parts; one is that an anti-fascist event was poorly organised, the other is that folkies shouldn't be singing political songs at all.
One (if it is true) can be sorted out with a little planning, the other is reactionary rubbish.
The first documented English political song was written in 1206 (in Latin – about King John) and politics has been a part of our cuture ever since; I'd have thought it was a little late to start complaining of the fact now.
Folk music has a track record to be proud of when it comes to campaigning against injustices and the improvement of the human condition; workers rights, Civil Rights, Peace, anti nuclear, anti-Apartheid, anti-fascism, third-world poverty, Viet Nam, the womens movement……. Some of us were there with our songs and music and were pleased to be. In my experience, nobody was ever forced to take part; they could sit on the sidelines and watch if they wished – and they still can. But nobody can tell us what and where and why to sing.
There is nothing complicated and in need of explanation regarding the rise of fascism in Europe today.
A bunch of right-wing thugs have taken the safety-pins out of their noses, covered up their swastika tattoos, grown their hair, put on suits and, thanks to the state of the economy, have made a few gains in local elections. Now they appear to be turning their attention to our music.
There are enough examples to be had of the thuggish intentions of these people; look at their past behaviour (Auschwitz wouldn't be a bad place to start), or the race riots and racist demonstrations that have shamed Britain, or the recent fire bombings and terrorising of immigrants in the North of Ireland or the Travellers elsewhere…
Look at their political pronouncements; the holocaust didn't happen, immigrants (and those of immigrant origin) should be repatriated, forcibly if necessary, those without the necessary paperwork should be cast adrift in open boats - men, women, children (it's beyond my understanding how people who publicly incite to murder and hatred are allowed to stand for election - but that's the establishment for you!). None of this is written into their manifesto maybe, but it's part of their twisted attitude to humanity all the same. What's to explain…. they're fascists, they're thugs and they're here!
Those who are happy to sit on their hands and do nothing are free to, but please don't interfere with those who care enough to become involved. If you don't want to be part of the solution, don't be part of the problem
Good luck to F.A.F.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,MtheGM
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:19 AM

Sorry, Borchester Echo; but I still think my observations about YouTube were well to the point on what purports to be a FolkAgainstFascism thread. Got out of bed the wrong side, did we?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:32 AM

Guest MtheGM's observations about YouTube content are perfectly valid but have nothing to do with artists taking a stand over hijacking of their material and misrepresentation of their personal opposition to BNP fascism.

FAF has specific, focussed aims and it is unhelpful to seek to diversify it into addressing every ill in musical history.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:44 AM

Not on its own, no it doesn't. It doesn't explain why folk should against fascism - or rather (since that's obvious) what is happening now to cause this movement to be launched?

Clearly you missed he elections of former National Front member Andrew Brons and Nick Griffin.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:46 AM

I would argue that the event was quite well organised - the response of the one attender who has expressed a negative view here runs contrary to the buzz, and the rather overwhelming response, in the Ham bar immediately following the event. I have to confess, when Paul told me how he was thinking of running the concert, it was not what I had envisioned: I thought it would be more talk and less music. However, the thing that convinced me that his approach was the right one was that when we started, the venue was a little over half full; half an hour later, the audience had grown substantially. Is that because people were drawn in by the worthiness of the message? I am more inclined to think it was because they heard some brilliant music from outside, peeped in and saw an amazing lineup of artists on the stage, and wandered in to hear more. Hopefully those people will also then have heard the message behind the music (expressed eloquently in their introductions by all the artists, but Steve Knightley and Dogan Mehmet in particular) or would have heard the speechy bit in the middle; hopefully they picked up a badge or a sticker or, more importantly, a leaflet; and maybe the format we chose meant we weren't just preaching to the converted, but managed to reach some new people.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Mrs_Annie
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:32 AM

I have to say I went because I knew all about the cause and wanted to support it. I very much enjoyed the music. Joan's speech was very very good, maybe it could've been a bit sooner in the hour, but most of us were happy to wait for it and listen to what the musicians had to say.

And about the BNP - as my husband keeps saying - "Billy Bragg has been telling us for YEARS this is going to happen" now people are finally taking notice - well done.
(on FB this morning I saw a picture of BB in a FaF t-shirt - if it's good enough for him.............)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:39 AM

Oops, sorry Diane, I forgot; it's your job to rubbish people's posts on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Captain Jack Sparrow
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:40 AM

There are folk musicians who, as they have fallen out of love with New Labour, have taken to giving a message at their gigs that not voting is the right thing to do to express that disillusionment. Whether folk persons make up enough of the electorate for that to matter or not, it does not set a good example, is not at all clever, and just plays to the BNP's tactics.

So, I was relieved to hear much of what was said at the Sidmouth event and that certain of those musicians have now woken up and had a bit of a conversion. The mix of song and talk was probably right. People react badly when they get overly lectured-to at music events, especially when the lecturing is coming from the newly converted.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:01 AM

i wish i had been there at the launch, it sounds like you had a fab time. SINCE fAF is all about the BNP trying to take our music away from us, it seems only right that that launch should concentrate on the music side of it.

a sort of... did you enjoy that? do you want the BNP to gain control of it?... no??? then help us stop them.

john,
you are entitled to think what you want, and i hear you that jioning a group and then doing nothing is not worth anything, but for us poor sods who haven't been able to do anything yet, it is somewhat patronising to say we never will. even displaying stickers and wearing t shirts help. i don't have a printer so i cannot download any. so i will just have to wait, which by the way i am not very good at. i can't wait to show my support and contribute to the fight.

you may not agree with how the group is going about it, but surely you cannot argue the cause? maybe you have been in a bad mood for a few days and are just looking for excuses to sound off?

anyway, take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:04 AM

Wasn't there. Didn't see it, but what else do people expect from a launch but a few songs and few words to rally the folks? If you want a detailed argument about the evils of fascism I've got six million of them.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:14 AM

Oh I agree with the ends Jeddy, just the means I quibble with.
We get them up here too now, so it's not just England that suffers from their hideous activities.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:18 AM

"Oops, sorry Diane, I forgot; it's your job to rubbish people's posts on Mudcat."
And it seems to be some people's jobs to act as an apologist (or at least a diversionist) for the BNP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:20 AM

well john,
if you have other suggestions of how mostly peaceful musicians can make their point, we would love to hear them and maybe we could incorperate them into the mix? we cannot have too many ideas of how to fight them. this is a great start and i hope that people will continue to think of more wonderful ways we can do more.

gotta go as we are looking at little sisters first reanted house away from parents.

take care all

jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:36 AM

Oops, sorry Diane, I forgot; it's your job to rubbish people's posts on Mudcat.

Looks like she's heading for involuntary redundancy, since the noble art of opening one's mouth, putting both feet in it and then pulling the trigger seems to a required skill for quite a few people on here.

And what IS this "Steve Harris"? Some of you seem to know, but I obviously move in the wrong circles! ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:42 AM

"we don't expect much better from somebody apparently in a silly country."

How true how true :)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:43 AM

Listmeister @ eceilidh

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:55 AM

Listmeister @ eceilidh

Ah, that explains the e-celidh bit of "Mud-e-ceilidh"!

The logo does give one a bit of a start, and the description does sound a mite, er, pedantic, authoritarian. I'm beginning to get the picture. Does he have a beard and a big wooden sword?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 07:41 AM

When will the teeshirts be available in XXXL? Enquiring beer-bellies want to know.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: treewind
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 07:47 AM

"Does he have a beard and a big wooden sword?"
I think it's fair to say Steve is only interested in English ceilidh, not in any other kinds of dancing and especially in this context not any kind of song. I suspect, therefore, he may have found it hard to sit though 20 minutes of song performance, never mind how who and how good it was. Some of the social dance diehards would have a similar view - they really aren't there for song events.

For the same reason, I suspect that if all the talking part had happened first, he would have left as soon as the music started, though at least he'd have then known what the campaign was about.

That's not intended as a criticism of the way the concert was organised, just a possible explanation of how things happened the way they did.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 08:14 AM

"Folk music has a track record to be proud of when it comes to campaigning against injustices and the improvement of the human condition; workers rights, Civil Rights, Peace, anti nuclear, anti-Apartheid, anti-fascism, third-world poverty, Viet Nam, the womens movement……. Some of us were there with our songs and music and were pleased to be. In my experience, nobody was ever forced to take part; they could sit on the sidelines and watch if they wished – and they still can. But nobody can tell us what and where and why to sing."

Spot on, Jim. If people don't like what FAF is doing, don't join in, but don't rubbish those who haven't got their heads in the sand.


"Oh I agree with the ends Jeddy, just the means I quibble with."

Be interested to hear some positive suggestions as to the right means from you, John.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 02:06 PM

Slightly off topic, or maybe not, all things considered, I'm wondering what the BNP's policy is on this:
Tens of millions of ladybirds have swarmed into the UK in a mass insect invasion

illegal immigration? *LOL*

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 02:25 PM

I think you'll find if you look back, that I did post a few suggestions earlier. Got a session tonight, so haven't time to search

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Old Vermin
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 02:40 PM

Did I remember rightly that the launch was towards the end of the week - was it noon on Friday? In principle a Jolly Good Thing. In practice most people may have been knackered by then. I know I was doing battle with a recalcitrant tent and assessing the rate at which mud was drying.

I am not, I repeat not, asking how anyone will pronounce FAF. For those with long memories, there was an equally alliterative 'Rock against Racism' way back - '70s or so. Is folk the new rock?

As for Steve being seen as a tad insular, as nothing to a man of my acquaintance who claims not to take a newspaper or watch or listen to news programmes, to be aware of events only within the Isle of Purbeck and to be much happier for it.

There are one or two people who do the apt 'A place called England' by Maggie Holland in pub sessions, which is some sort of start.

Someone above already mentioned Woody Guthrie.

Folk does rather seem to have divide between what the great and worthy may be doing in the Ham and elsewhere - paid concerts - and what the rest of us do in pubs and elsewhere. Thing about independent thought is that it's really rather difficult to direct, though.

How about a Limerick competition about Nick Griffin?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 02:43 PM

"Sorry, basically I'm an apolitical animal..."
- John MacKenzie

There you go, you've said it yourself, that being so, stay out of the fight and don't try and tell me and others what we should be doing, what we shouldn't be doing, what we should be saying and what we shouldn't be saying, oh, and where this thread should reside.
I'm being polite again (sorry Folknacious *LOL*), but I think my drift is fairly obvious.

For the record, I believe that Steve Harris is nothing more than a wind up merchant, and should, thus, be ignored.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 02:53 PM

"For the record, I believe that Steve Harris is nothing more than a wind up merchant, and should, thus, be ignored."

Every time an anti-Bnp thread appears on Mudcat, it attracts someone who claims to be anti-BNP and then proceeds to extol the virtues of an all white Britain (or whatever). I reckon it's the same person using a multiplicity of names, the latest of which just happens to be Shit Erv Arse. Well, approximately.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:04 PM

It's rather like, "well, I'm not racist but......" and you know damned well the person IS racist.

harris, or whatever you name is this hour, give it a rest will you..

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:14 PM

"haven't time to search"

Me neither.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:24 PM

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie - PM
Date: 11 Aug 09 - 03:37 PM

I'm not going to let them do it either my anonymous friend, but joining silly groups isn't going to stop them either.
People need to get out on the streets, campaign against them in public, attend their election meetings and ask awkward questions.
Most important, vote against them, make your vote count by voting for the candidate most likely to beat them, forget political allegiances in the name of beating them. If that's how strongly you feel, that's what you need to do.
Not exchange idealistic posts in an obscure web forum. Which is not a political forum anyway.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:24 PM

Peggy Seeger's take on the subject says it for me.
Jim Carroll

SONG OF CHOICE

(Freely)
Early every year the seeds are growing—
Unseen, unheard, they lie beneath the ground.
Would you know until their leaves are showing
That with weeds all your garden will abound?

(Chorus verse I only):
If you close your eyes, stop your ears,
Hold your tongue, how can you know?
For seeds you cannot see may not be there,
Seeds you cannot hear may never grow.

(In rhythm)
In January, you've still got the choice,
You can cut the weeds before they start to bud.
If you leave them to grow high, they'll silence your voice
And in December you may pay with your blood.

(Chorus)
So close your eyes, stop your ears,
Close your mouth, take it slow!
Let others take the lead and you bring up the rear,
And later you can say you didn't know.

Every day another vulture takes flight,
There's another danger born every morning.
In the darkness of your blindness, the beast will learn to bite,
How can you fight if you can't recognise a warning?

(chorus)

Today you may earn a living wage.
Tomorrow you may be on the dole.
Though there's millions going hungry you needn't disengage,
For it's them not you that's fallen in the hole,

(chorus)

Today the soldiers took away one.
Tomorrow they may take away two.
One April they took away Greece,
But surely they will never take you.

(chorus)

It's all right for you if you run with the pack,
It's all right if you agree with all they do;
If Fascism is slowly crawling back,
It's not here yet, so what's it got to do with you?

(chorus)

The weeds are all around us and they're growing.
It will soon be too late for the knife.
If you leave them on the wind that around the world is blowing
You may pay for your silence with your life.

(Final chorus)
So close your eyes, stop your ears,
Close your mouth and never dare!
And if it happens here, they'll never come for you
Because they'll know you really didn't care.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:27 PM

Oh, right, we plebs have to go right out there, and do all this while the Laird MacKenzie sits back on his throne and pontificates on how ' apolitical' he is....hypocrite!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Stower
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:28 PM

In the late 1970s or early '80s I remember John Peel playing a single (that didn't chart, sadly) by a band (who I forget the name of - sorry!) made entirely of unemployed people. The hook-line went, "Living on the dole is a pain in the soul, we want to work." JP said if you couldn't appreciate the sentiment of the song, "I think I know who you are".

I wonder if the same thing could be said here of those who seem to be baffled as to why this issue is so important?

If you are genuinely still in the dark about what BNP fascists are already planning and why it is important to stop them, try reading Nick Griffin's more than scary website, where he extolls the virtues of hijacking folk music and his supporters agree it is a great idea. You will also find a video from Great White Records. Now I wonder why they chose that name? I suppose this is an attempt at an acceptable face of racist music, the modern equivalent of Skrewdriver.

Or you could watch the video here, where Nick Griffin explains why fascists need to hoodwink people with respectable-sounding language so as to hide their true intentions.   

From the BNP's Activists and Organisers Handbook:

"Community Activism means our activists getting involved in the affairs of their neighbourhood at all levels...We have had some major successes, for example, with local groups set up to encourage the celebration of St George's Day. Fun activities for children and families which are linked to our Christian heritage - such as Pace Egging in many northern towns - are particularly suitable candidates for revival as popular awareness of the growing power of Islam encourages support for and interest in our own religious and cultural traditions."

"Ideally our units will lead their communities in organising, or at least supporting, cultural events such as St George's Day celebrations (April 23rd). Most regions of the country have cultural events which are unique to that area, or county. For example, Padstow Hobby Horse (sic) in Cornwall, Arbor Tree Day in Shropshire, Garland King Day and the Well Dressing in Derbyshire, the Marshfield Mummers in Wiltshire, the Haxey Hood in Humberside, and countless others.

Some such celebrations, now very popular, have only been revived in recent years - the Hastings Jack in the Green and Whittlesea Straw Bear festivals show just how big such things can get. Why not do some research to see if there's a lost local tradition you can inspire a team of enthusiasts to revive?"

I've already heard that Griffin likes to sing John Barleycorn at BNP meetings. This site reckons that his daughter wants to be a folk singer.

I am old enough to remember the rise of the National Front in the 1970s (for whom Griffin stood for parliament). They were not then sophisicated enough to play the media. Racism is becoming almost respectable again in some quarters because the fascists wear nice suits. The BNP carried election adverts in all my local papers. I know an alarming number of people, including kids under 18, who do or say they would vote BNP. Rational argument is useless in conversation with them. It would be, by the very definition of their being prejudiced. One of my neighbours openly displayed a BNP leaflet in her window during the recent elections. She physically assaulted a female friend of mine, visiting my house, just for being the wrong colour. (The two of them had never spoken or had any contact. She was attached from behind.)

If you still don't know why this is important, I definitely do know who you are.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:36 PM

John: Mudcat not political? Man, takin' a crap these days is political.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:37 PM

"In principle a Jolly Good Thing. In practice most people may have been knackered by then"

*sigh*

At the risk of repeating myself for the 4th or 5th time, there was a palpable buzz in the venue after the event. The audience grew substantially during the event. Those of us who were there, with the possible exception of the flying visit by Mr Harris, felt afterwards that the event had been a huge success. Judging by the fact that we completely sold out of t-shirts and shifted hundreds of leaflets, stickers and badges, we certainly felt that the message had been transmitted and understood. The secondary opportunity which came of the launch being featured on Radio 4 that night and reaching thousands of people beyond our little enclave was the icing on the cake.

Only in Mudcatland could such an event be perceived as a failure. But I ought to be used to it by now.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: steve_harris
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:43 PM

I'm sorry you didn't get it Steve, we totally failed you. Without irony. Please let us know how we can get through to people like yourself in the future.

Thanks for the willingness to listen :-) I don't have a complete prescription but here goes....

· Start with the assumption that the audience have NOT done their homework in advance
· Inform and enthuse them so they are quite likely to do any necessary homework afterwards
· Hand out supporting material as people LEAVE (Classic this: Don't give people stuff to read when you really want them to listen)
· Select speakers for their oratorical skills and knowledge of the subject.
· Start with at LEAST 5-10 minutes of explanation of the issue. Foreground not backgrounds.
· If it's also meant to be a "media event" - and it probably should be - invite and brief the media.
· Consider not singing or playing at all
· Consider having questions from the audience (use roving mike)
· There are quite a few folkies with political campaigning experience - get them to advise you how to do things.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:43 PM

"This site reckons that his daughter wants to be a folk singer."
- Stower
the first lady of song, not counting Dorothy Squires and Sandy Denny?*LOL*

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:49 PM

Great work, Ruth.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 03:54 PM

"we completely sold out of t-shirts and shifted hundreds of leaflets, stickers and badges, we certainly felt that the message had been transmitted and understood. The secondary opportunity which came of the launch being featured on Radio 4 that night and reaching thousands of people beyond our little enclave was the icing on the cake"
- Ruth Archer

seems to me that things went off swimmingly, despite the whining from steve harris, who then has the cheek to try and tell us what to do...get over yourself harris, you were the one who walked out, because it didn't work for you...Personally I think eliza c is being overly kind.

Ruth, kudos you and your staff for providing the launch, and many thanks to BBC 4 for extending the range of the message

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jane Bird
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:05 PM

Well, as a musical launch of a musical responce to political actions I thought the FaF launch was pretty signicantly good. I'm not convinced that a rally would really have been effective or have gone down half as well. Has anyone noted the standing ovation, yet?

Steve, I'm sure you're abreast of all the arguments and counter arguments, now ;-)

Cheers,
Jane

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:09 PM

"Vote against them, make your vote count by voting for the candidate most likely to beat them,"
Now there's an idea, it seems to have done the trick so far - and it worked a charm in pre-war Germany.
As the feller nearly said "He also serves who only stands and sows the seeds of apathy".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:23 PM

Now it seems from the above that Steve is real - just is only interested in dance, not music. I can understand that. If someone wanted me to watch 20 minutes of E-ceilidh dancing before a political speech, I'd be gone before the speech.

What I don't understand is that anyone can actually be that naive about the BNP: Steve's questions statement look like an apolagia for the BNP - but in any event it has now been explained several times above what a danger Nick Griffin is - not only to democracy, unchaperoned women, and political opponents who are rash enough to walk in dark alleys, but also to folk music.

So, Steve, now that the BNP is having dancing at its loathsome "picnic", and contaminating your preferred art-form, when will you be starting "Ceilidhs agains C**ts" - are do we need to be as worried about you as we should be about the apparent member (or impersonator of a member) of Wild Hunt Bedlam Morris - Mark Stevens - being faux-naif on the FaF page?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Royston
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 04:54 PM

congratulations Ruth and to all who worked on the launch and on the plans for St. G's day in 2010. FaF is exactly the sort of grass roots, real-world activism that makes a real difference and stops the spread of 'acceptable' fascism. If Nazis appropriate folk culture for their vicious ends then folk people must seize the culture back. Better to stop the mis-appropriation than to try to salvage it later, after the fascists have debased it; like other groups have had to 'reclaim' identities like 'queer' or 'black'.

Certainly don't be disheartened by a couple of negative comments on Mudcat. The active debate here is no more serious than a debate at the pub and you certainly should not take seriously people from country 'A' who are so fed up with the politics of country 'B' that they are compelled continually to choose to engage in discussions of those politics just to have another onanistic orgasm of prurient disapproval. It's as perplexing as those people that go watch a contentious TV program just to be outraged by it, and to complain about it.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:02 PM

Well Mr Beak, if you prefer to descend to personal jibes, rather than discuss another person's point of view that's fine with me. But I would have thought that was the sort of thing that the people you are fighting against would do.
Other people are entitled to have a point of view too, so ignoring that, or denigrating it because you don't agree, isn't very constructive.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:10 PM

What a complete and utter non-issue. Just what exactly are the lot of you getting into such a lather about.

Switch on a radio or television - tell me how much "FOLK MUSIC" you hear - by the bye amongst the lot of you you cannot even define what "folk music" is. So tell me how can anybody hijack it??

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Royston
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:15 PM

Well done Mackenzie.

Your stated position is that you don't think this topic should be discussed here. Someone suggests that you only need not discuss this, if that's what you believe and you complain you're view, which amounts to not having a view or thinking that the subject does not merit an opinion from you, is not being respected. So your new problem is what exactly?

People often complain about thread creep. Push off and start a thread about why Mudcat should not host discussions about fascist appropriation of folk-culture in the UK. You don't have to read any thread that you don't want to engage in.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Stower
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:16 PM

What I forgot to mention in my post above was that I was at the Sidmouth FAF launch. It was wonderful. There was a buzz around me in the queue before it started. I found myself speaking with overseas visitors who knew about the BNP and the threat they pose. In my row during the gig there were several murmurs of approval around me, both at the quality of the music and at the comments musicians made. Joan's speech was brief without being terse, with good points clearly made as to the purpose of FAF.

It ended with a standing ovation. For a few minutes afterwards, people around me, who had never spoken to each other before, discussed how good and important the issues/gig were.

I think that counts as a success.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Stower
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:18 PM

Teribus, look at my previous posting and follow the links, then you will clearly see "Just what exactly are the lot of you getting into such a lather about."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:19 PM

Oh dear, we are getting our knickers in a twist aren't we?
I am entitled to have a point of view on the matter. same as you are. If you don't want to listen to it, don't read my posts then.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:28 PM

Actually, Ms (not Mr) Beak is laughing her head off rather than waste time getting her knickers in a twist. The one thing that bothers me I have already stated, but I'll repeat myself..... is

"Sorry, basically I'm an apolitical animal..."
- John MacKenzie

There you go, you've said it yourself, that being so, stay out of the fight and don't try and tell me and others what we should be doing, what we shouldn't be doing, what we should be saying and what we shouldn't be saying, oh, and where this thread should reside.
I'm being polite again (sorry Folknacious *LOL*), but I think my drift is fairly obvious.

(ain't cut and paste wonderful? *LOL*)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:28 PM

As I had other commitments I missed the F A F launch , but would be interested in getting a fistfull of the F A F Stickers that were (I gather) available at the launch .

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:28 PM

Teri and Giok are notoriously right-wing, but their resistance to criticism of the BNP is a worrying new dimension to their oddity.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:29 PM


What a complete and utter non-issue

Of course. Musicians who say they've had their work snatched from under their noses and used without permission are just making it up, aren't they? Just like the 6 million nazi murders didn't happen either.

It's a funny thing but roots-based music is coming out of my radio all the time. Must be cos I don't and won't let the BNP have it . . .

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:37 PM

Morris dancers have already had to endure Jay Rayner's likening us to the Nazis, and the attempts by BNP to get into Morris and folk more generally, are known by many.

I have seen the FaF thread grow, and knew about the event, but I didn't really think the info I saw made it clear what it was about. It came across to me as an event preaching to the already converted.

Maybe that was the intent, and I don't doubt Ruth's comments about the turnout, but I am finding myself increasingly turned off from FaF by the attitude of some - to be a fair, just a handful, but a noticeable handful, on this thread.

To win the battle, it is necessary to win the the support of the majority - who are reasonable, would like to be informed in a sensible manner and who prefer explanation and argument to shrill bully-boy shrieks of "if you're not for us, you're against us".

The likes of Ollie Beak - and even Ruth (what makes you think Steve Harris was the only one to leave, or not just turn up? Badmouthing him because he had the balls to stand up and say that he left, and the courtesy to explain why, doesn't do anyone any favours) - are not going to endear uncommitted people to FaF.

Let's be thankful for Eliza's cool head.

I am glad that the concert was successful, and got a wider coverage than expected. But if supporters of FaF insist on acting like a bunch of extremists, the message will be lost. Can we afford that?

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:38 PM

Everybody is right wing compared to you Richard.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Bloke from Poole
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:41 PM

"Guest" above was me. Using a different PC while mine is trying to recover from a disk crash.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: gnu
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:45 PM

Richard Bridge... "Teri and Giok are notoriously right-wing, but their resistance to criticism of the BNP is a worrying new dimension to their oddity."

I am remiss. I must have missed this. Please provide supporting documentaion for these arguements.

Thank you in advance.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:48 PM

Blinkered vision is a terrible thing and more than a few people are afflicted with it...

It's rather like those who chose to laugh at the funny little man with the Charlie Chaplin moustache, and we all know where that led, and there were those who laughed at the somewhat comic posturings of Idi Amin, and we all know what he was capable of. Next we'll be told that it's alright, we've spoken to representatives of the BNP, and they're not as bad as we first thought, so let's just try to get along.

I think I just made myself sick just thinking about
'trying to get along'

The answer is, to oppose the BNP and their sort in anyway possible, the ballot box, music, speaking out, and disrupt (peacefully, if possible)any events held by the BNP. FaF is a fine place to start your actions.

Stand and Be Counted!

Oliva Beak (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:50 PM

Bloke from Poole makes a very good point ! There are too many people being Unneccessarily virulent to those who they think are not quite in step ! There is NO future in verbally abusing Mr Harris , just because you dont like what he says ! It devalues YOUR argument and reduces you to the same level as Griffins mobsters .

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:56 PM

I am remiss. I must have missed this. Please provide supporting documentaion for these arguements.

Ever thought of doing your own research? This is how.

Go to Teribus's posts. Click on the name Teribus. That brings all his posts up. Choose a few and get a flavour of his opinions. Decide for yourself.

Whatever you do, watch him change the goalposts when you disagree with him.

Do the same with John McKenzie.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:01 PM

Malcolm, I never said Steve was the only perseon etc etc. But the constant Mudcat disease of tearing down things because they are not exactly as you would have done them, or do not speak specifically and directly to your narrow little perspective, or even of attacking things of which you have no direct experience, has got very old.

We did an event that was hugely successful. One person left after about 20 mins because it didn't work for him, but instead of talking about the event's positive side, and where we go from here, we are caught in the usual Mudcat circular arguments in which we keep trying to engage those whose experience of something is either very limited, or non-existent (how many people have expressed an opinion on this thread who weren't even there, for heaven's sake?) But god knows lack of knowledge doesn't stop many Mudcatters from having an opinion, and certainly from expressing it.

You're right, John - this thread was a complete waste of time, but not for the reasons you cited. But well done being one of those who has successfully derailed it.

I'm done - this is an important issue and I have people in the real world to talk to.

Thanks for everyone who DID come to the FAF launch, and who helped to make it such a success.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:05 PM

"Ever thought of doing your own research?"
-Folkiedave

I was thinking the same thing in regard to mr harris, there's no lack of material out there about anti racism, politics in music and the musicians, and, of course, the BNP.

Sharpen your pencils, you have one hour, there will be a test to follow..

"There is NO future in verbally abusing Mr Harris"
-Leadfingers
of course there's not, why waste the future. What's done is done, and I have no regrets about doing it, and now it's on to the next thing. As I think I stated somewhere, I"ve been in the anti racism field for a few years now, this another front to be fought on, we do need to get the message out there.

Stand and Be Counted!

Olivia Beak (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:05 PM

Ruth: Ya done good, gal.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:12 PM

Ruth: Ya done good, gal.

See my post on the "evaluation" thread. Well done Ruth. The next gin is on me.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:28 PM

i think mr harris's last post wasn't all that bad. what he was saying was maybe to start some gigs rally n stuff by saying what it is all about. sometimes we should just assume that no one knows why they are there.
i think what we cats forget is that we are a handful of people, there are so many who still do not have the internet at home, or have never even heard of mudcat or don't use facebook.

john, i agree i am a silly person on a silly website in a silly country.

AND I AM DAMN PROUD TO BE.

we are known for our sense of humour and quite frankly sir, you are kinda letting the side down somewhat.
that said you are right to say we should fight them in numerous ways not just like this, but what a hell of a start!!

no, i wasn't there and no, i probably won't be at codnor either due to family commitments. i will however be there in heart and sould if not in body.

i don't understand why it should matter if we were there or not, people have brought forward ideas and thoughts and it is that we are responding to. no need to get arsey about it, just go with the flow and if there are any ideas that make sense to you maybe they could be used in future.
since this is such a new group and things haven't become stale yet it might be worth storing ideas for the future to make sure it never goes stale with overdoing it.

i do not like being told that i can only hold an opinion on stuff that i have actually been to. this is what a conversation looks like, it goes this way, it goes the other way but all are valid points and should not just be swept aside by saying, well you weren't there so your opinions don't count.

sorry if that sounded to harsh but it felt like that was what you were saying, if i took that the wrong way i am sorry.

take care all

jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:31 PM

I was just trying to work out if "being Unneccessarily (sic) virulent " involves passing on the flu when you don't have to when Mudcat went on one of its all-too-frequent walkabouts. I assume that antipodean pest is putting a bad spell on it . . .

I never know what Steve Harris is talking about and just generally assume he's bonkers but this time I'm close to getting it and no, I DON'T like what he and similar apologists say from their pretendy perch of "reasonableness".

It's one thing for crypto-fascists to try to undermine an embryo anti-fascist organisation. Whatever do you expect? But be not fooled by the apparent difference between nazi thugs going after The Clash at RAR in Victoria Park 30 odd years ago and middle-class wankers today preaching :free speech". It's just a tweaking of tactics. A nazi is a nazi is a nazi. As Ollie Beak says, they have to be opposed in any way possible. If this involves knocking the likes of MacKenzie, Teribus and hmmm Leadfingers (?) offf their fake fences, so be it,

More power to FaF (our music needs it) and all praise to Ruth for thinking of it and pulling off Phase I.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:42 PM

the way i read steves last post was of different ways to fight them but maybe i have been decieved? i certainly didn't agree with his earlier posts and nor do i agree with johns, but i would never say you shouldn't say what you truely think. as long as what you are saying you do actually believe.

i don't mind someone playind devils advocate, but as long as i know that is what they are doing, i am the first to admit, i can be very thick sometimes.

just to be clear i am not knocking the progress so far. and i admire the stamina and effort that has gone into making the group and sustaining it.
my sound off was simple. i just don't like being told it is none of my buisness, coz i am a nosey, opinionated git!!! not to mention very stubborn.

however i do feel bad if you all get the idea that i was being too judgemental.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:44 PM

I live in the USA and I am a member of Folk Against Fascism. Why? Because I believe that no matter where we live we should be against fascism. I also believe that no matter where we live, people should take a stand against fascists' attempts to appropriate folk music and other forms of folk culture for their own hateful purposes.

John McKenzie, I've read and re-read all of your posts to this thread. And in doing so, i've noted that in those posts on this thread you have never used the term "BNP".

For example, on 11 Aug 09 - 03:37 PM you wrote:

"I'm not going to let them do it either my anonymous friend, but joining silly groups isn't going to stop them either.
People need to get out on the streets, campaign against them in public, attend their election meetings and ask awkward questions.
-snip-

[italics added by me to highlight those words]

And you concluded that post with additional "thems" and "theirs", never once using the initials "BNP" or the word "fascists".

And on 12 Aug 09 - 06:14 AM you wrote:

"Oh I agree with the ends Jeddy, just the means I quibble with.
We get them up here too now, so it's not just England that suffers from their hideous activities."

-snip-

For point of clarification, what ends do you agree with? And who or what group or groups is "them" and what are "their" hideous activities?

I'm asking you for this clarification because of this subsequent post of yours:

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie - PM
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 05:02 PM

Well Mr Beak, if you prefer to descend to personal jibes, rather than discuss another person's point of view that's fine with me. But I would have thought that was the sort of thing that the people you are fighting against would do.

Other people are entitled to have a point of view too, so ignoring that, or denigrating it because you don't agree, isn't very constructive.

-snip-

John, it's clear to me from her statements that the BNP are the people Ms. Beak is fighting against. Given that, John, if you are also against the goals of the BNP, I'm interested in knowing why you wrote "the people you are fighting against" rather than "the people we are fighting against".

What I'm asking for, John, is that you clarify for me and perhaps for others your point of view on the BNP by sharing where exactly you stand regarding the BNP.

Thank you in advance for your response.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 06:46 PM

I haven't seen anyone saying the event was a failure. On the contrary, it clearly was a success. For the avoidance of doubt: bloody well done, good effort.

However, it could have been an even greater success, instead it failed to keep the interest of at least one person for long enough to get the message across. Why assume he was the only one? There may well have been others, and they too will have left early so you won't have had feedback from them. Steve has explained why it didn't work for him - the basic message is, don't assume your audience knows what it's all about, and get to the point sooner.

There are two possible reactions to this: one is to take his comments on board and consider whether future events might be arranged slightly differently to make sure the key message is delivered while you still have everyone's full attention.

The other, which with the exception of Eliza C seems to have been the reaction of most here, is to attack Steve for failing to understand a message you hadn't actually got around to delivering.   

Frankly, I find this attack on constructive criticism painfully reminiscent of left-wing student politics in my youth. This is feedback which should assist you to do better next time, rather than an attack on the entire event. For god's sake, don't be so defensive about accepting it as such.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Aug 09 - 07:05 PM

Fascism / racism = evil.
It's not a matter of how many (Orwellian) legs it has.
It's not "constructive criticism" to seek to modify such a basic fact under the guise of claiming that the FAF launch "should have got to the point quicker"
That's fatuous.
What the BNP (and its antecedents) are doing / did is WRONG / I NHUMAN / PLAIN & SIMPLE EVIL.
Yes, one Mackenzie sneer was right: he claimed anti-fascists saw it in stark terms, right or wrong, no in between.
Dead right we do (speaking for myself and - I'd hope - for all but a handful of snivelling apologists lurking on this thread.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:00 AM

Around ten years ago an elderly concentration camp survivor came to Swansea to talk about his experiences in the Aushwitz extermination camp during the war.Leon's wife and baby son had been murdered by the nazis but somehow he had survived.
This gentle elderly man was a shining example of humanity but he warned his audience that we must never allow the fascists to regain their confidence.
I had seen Leon some years previously at the head of a 60000 anti nazi march in Welling South London where the BNP had its then headquarters.
Leon had received death threats from fascist thugs and his home had been attacked. He had to have security cameras and other safety precautions installed around his house.This man was in his eighties.
We owe it to the millions murdered in the war to ensure that these racist Hitler loving thugs dont ever get the chance to threaten people like Leon and dont ever get near state power.
ifor

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:28 AM

"Everybody is right wing compared to you Richard."

Wrong again,John!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: jeddy
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 05:26 AM

oh poop!!!! i meant to post on here about leon but did it on the why have the BNP gained votes thread.   woops.

have a great day everyone

take care

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 05:57 AM

Well for the record, and for those who can only see things from a black and white viewpoint.
I loathe the BNP and their policies, I always have done. It just amuses me to see people realising TOO LATE, just how obnoxious they are.
Where were you when they were elected?
Did you go out and vote at all?
I always exercise my vote, and in case you're interested I vote for the SNP of which I am a member. However at the last elections for MEP's I voted UKIP, because I loathe what the EEC fisheries policy has done to the Scottish fishing industry in particular, and the UK one in general.
I assume that will be construed as right wing, just because it wasn't New Labour I voted for. Not that they are very left wing are they?
Thank you for reading all my posts Azizi, but I woukld have thought my feelings about the BNP were obvious from what I posted.
Anyway, as the general tendency in this thread is to 'shoot the messenger' rather than read and/or understand the message, it doesn't surprise me that you misconstrued what I wrote.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:00 AM

As an avowed apolitical (within the sartorial affectation context - and within folk) this has me in a dilema. For evil to triumph, good men have to stand by and do nothing.

It pains me to agree with Steve Harris but you have to make the message appealing. After all the intention is to fight what is seen as "a message in danger of appealing to the masses".

It is a well known artefact of media messages - particularly questionaires, if in doubt people tend to say yes. So give them something to say yes to, not a message full of "no"'s.

I wasn't at the launch so can't comment specifically.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Old Vermin
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:32 AM

Oh dear, a sigh from Ruth Archer. Should count myself lucky, I suppose.

Was trying to gently mention that I might have got along there were it not for the brute practicalities of sorting out the escape from the camp-site. My feeling was that by Friday morning campers there were beginning to let go of the festival and concentrate on getting packed up and off-site.

I shall be very pleased if the campaign does some good. Not wholly convinced that folkies have that much influence with the BNP target demographic, but open to discussion.

Yes, the Ghastly Griffin is wittering about taking over ritual, etc. Does that mean his followers or potential voters are remotely interested in it?

What he doesn't, thankfully, have is the background of WWI ruin and disaffected veterans as a starting point.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:50 AM

"Where were you when they were elected?
Did you go out and vote at all?"

As a resident of one of the constituencies where they got in, I was out campaigning against them (my house is directly opposite the polling station) and, yes, I did vote. Anther MEP who got in was the buffoon Godfrey Bloom of UKIP who is also a complete waste of space.

And, no, it isn't too late. This is a way of helping to prevent the spread of the odious policies of the BNP. John, why are you spending so much time sneering from the sidelines and why do you find it amusing if, as you say, you loathe the BNP? Doesn't ring true to me.

On the positive side, there is shortly to be a bi-election in Barnsley. The BNP have a candidate who, last time, failed to get elected by only 300 votes. Anyone interested in stopping another fascist getting into a position of power should join the Hope Not Hate campaign.
http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/index.php/content/home-wk/

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:34 AM

Read Old Vermin's post, the one before yours.
I am not sneering, I am pleased that you actively went out and campaigned against them, but you were a minority.
So is FaF, and that's what I'm trying to point out.
I'm afraid that casting aspersions as to the veracity of my feelings about the BNP is not very constructive, and it sort of reeks of the sort of tactics that they adopt to discredit others.
Once more, and for the final time.
I have nothing but disdain for the BNP, and in no way do I sympathise with, or support any of it's aims.
I wish FaF all the best, but I fear that it will not, on it's own, put a stop to the BNP.
That's me, out of this thread, as I feel that reality isn't welcome here.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:45 AM

I think FAF could do some valuable work, but it needs to focus on one area - the BNP and local traditions. It may be helpful to explain what FAF stands for and demonstrate how supporters can help make that stand. For instance:

I would like to be able to alert the 'Management Committeee' (if there is one) to local events that are being organised by the BNP. I might need some help making the stand - dealing with the media, opposing licences, contacting the police because there is a risk of public disorder and getting information on other strategies.

As for the appropriation of folk songs by Excalibur or the BNP's radio station - I can't see what a non-musician can do about that. Musicians themselves have to get their act together with more than a logo and a sticker. Take every care about who they sell rights to in the future? Donate any royalties received from the BNP to a worthy cause? I don't know the answer.

I think we also have to get the 'tone' of this movement right, too. There's some very muddled thinking and talking about OUR music - as though we are an exclusive club and only people with the right credentials, opinions and persuasions are worthy listeners. If FAF can overcome this paradox (inclusive music that excludes the BNP) then that will be an achievement indeed.

---

Please remember to use one consistent name when you post. If you post under a variety of names, you risk having all your posts deleted. This is particularly important in all threads having to do with the BNP.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,MtheGM
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 08:00 AM

"I wish FaF all the best, but I fear that it will not, on it's own, put a stop to the BNP.": J MacKenzie

Of course it won't ON ITS OWN, John, Neither will anything else ON ITS OWN. But can't you see it as a valuable part of a cumulative process? A perhaps minor but nevertheless important cog in a mighty machine which, like Woody Guthrie's guitar, kills fascists? The fact that something isn't going to achieve its purpose on its own seems to me a poor reason for belittling and sneering at it {and don't pretend now you never did either: your tone thruout this thread has been scornful & negative and it's much too late now to try and save face by saying that it hasn't}; & that's the 'reality' that you denounce this thread for not welcoming here.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Stower
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 08:14 AM

Mr Red and Mr. Harris, I am at a loss: "It pains me to agree with Steve Harris but you have to make the message appealing."

If attempting to defend the image and integrity of folk musicians whose work is being (mis)used by fascists isn't already important and appealing (Mr. Red); if Steve Knightly at the FAF launch starting the event with his song 'Roots' because it has been appropriated by the BNP doesn't make the issue clear enough (Mr. Harris); if the attempt by fascists to fund folk events under a pseudonym to recruit members doesn't already scare you ... then I really don't know what anyone can say to you to help you become aware.   

Mr. Red, think on your own quote: "For evil to triumph, good men have to stand by and do nothing."   

It saddens me that this thread has (once again on Mudcat) been an occasion for posters to do the equivalent of a child sticking a tongue out and shouting 'yah boo sucks'. This issue (like many others) is bound to raise passion, but sarcasm and insults do nothing to promote understanding: only engaging openly with others can do that.

Unfortunately, there are some who would rather play games rather than engage in rational discussion. The hardcore of the BNP and their ilk are not able to engage in rational argument. That is part of the condition and definition of being prejudiced.

Being rational and factual may only win over a few who are tempted on the margins of the BNP. But those few are important. Unfortunately, one will always find it difficult to engage rationally with an irrational/fearful/passionate person. But we have to try.

If all we do is sling mud, shout 'yah boo sucks', and get some kind of thrill from insulting others, making no attempt to bring understanding but feeding on negative emotions, then I wonder how our approach and behaviour is different to that of the BNP? And I wonder what we can ever hope to achieve by it?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Flashmeister
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 09:15 AM

Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much squabbling. It it a cause that will be supported widely within the folk scene as well as cause distemper among other members of it. we are all different in our views BUT bickering on here is not going to change or solve anything.
If people want to get behind the cause, brilliant, if not then then that is just the reality of things, you can't please everyone and there will always be dissent from those who think they know better or are closet fascists.
I for one am behind FAF and against the BNP to the point that i would very much like to start making moves to organise an event in the FAF week in Luton where I live (read the papers on the BNP/NF there and you shall see why!) so no, I'm not just sitting on my arse giving it lip service here.
Folk music has also long been a form of protest from the the Diggers to the miners to today; it's story-telling, history, humour, cautionary tales, solidarity, love, loss, times of bounty and famine all rolled up and sung out loud by anyone moved enough to do so, go to any open session and you'll get it all so lets stop moaning that 'I don't want my folk political'.
All those who say 'yay!' to support FAF just bloody well do it and don't waste time picking the bones of a pointless argument.

ps. a little LOL at Mr.Harris preaching to eliza c on how to play folk music to lots of people...the novice that she clearly is :-D

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 10:17 AM

I think FAF could do some valuable work, but it needs to focus on one area - the BNP and local traditions. It may be helpful to explain what FAF stands for and demonstrate how supporters can help make that stand. For instance:

Can I in the spirit of real friendliness suggest you read the thread where you will find all the information you need - including websites. Then type Folk Against Fascism into and take a look at the Facebook page. You don't need to be a member of Facebook to read that.

Then you can seek out local anti-fscist groups (most areas of the country are covered) and join that. You'll find they will be very helpful.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 11:04 AM

"Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much squabbling."

Bit like watching the bluddy histrionics over "Who stole the Cocoa Pops?!!" on Big Brother..

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:20 PM

PLEASE!!!!!! Anybody read P.G.Wodehouse? Sir Roderick Spode? The British Knee? Extremists have always existed in England, but thanks to our (somewhat descredited )electoral system they haven't a hope in hell of being elected.. Over to you Peace!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 12:36 PM

If the organisers of the Sidmouth event are entirely satisfied with the way the event went, and don't feel that there are any lessons to be learned, that's their prerogative. It seems a bit blinkered to me, there's always room for improvement, but so be it.

How even Ms Echo can turn a suggestion about how the structure of the event might be improved into a denial of the evils of fascism is beyond me.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 01:11 PM

Even if the BNP became a force in Parliament they would still be impotent since all our rules and regulations will soon emanate from Brussels. Now, the dismantling of that corrupt shower is a cause worth singing for!!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 01:24 PM

What the fuck are you talking about?

I wasn't at the launch and have not commented on its structure. The organisers and artists have stated clearly that i achieved what they set out to do and I support that entirely. Nitpicking from the sidelines and mouthing know-all criticisms of what "should" have occurred (according to a few carping fencesitters) is unhelpful and insulting. If, on the other hand, you think there are other ways of opposing fascism, you are of course right. No-one's stopping you from organising your own speechifying public meetings or whatever. Anything Against Fascism goes as long as it works, deters even more waverers from voting for the BNP, rescues music from misappropriation . . . oh, and sounds good.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:06 PM

"Even if the BNP became a force in Parliament they would still be impotent since all our rules and regulations will soon emanate from Brussels. Now, the dismantling of that corrupt shower is a cause worth singing for!!"
- GUEST,John from Kemsing

hmmmm now THIS sounds just like something the BNP and their associates would advocate, and I feel that the posting from Kemsing is simply another attempt to detract from the thread at hand. Nice try Kemsing!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:30 PM

Ms Echo, I was responding to your post of 12 Aug 09 - 07:05 PM in which you said, "It's not "constructive criticism" to seek to modify such a basic fact [the evils of fascism] under the guise of claiming that the FAF launch "should have got to the point quicker"" which I took to be in answer to my own post of 12 Aug 09 - 06:46 PM.

Let me be clear - the event was clearly a great success, and congratulations to the organisers. However at least one person left early because the message wasn't put across sooner. That's one person lost to the cause, who may not have been had the event been structured slightly differently. In what way is it unhelpful, let alone insulting, to point that out?

It's usual these days at many types of event to invite feedback from the audience to help the organisers to refine their message - indeed, filling in a feedback form has become a slightly tiresome ritual at the end of every conference or training session. Whether the feedback advice is followed is another matter. The organisers of FAF may feel that, overall, the balance of the event was right and attracted more interest than it lost - that's a judgement for them to make. But to jump on someone merely for offering feedback, which has been the overwhelming response, and to equate their suggestions with denial of the evils of fascism seems to me, to use one of your favourite words, "bonkers".

Here's another suggestion, which I hope won't appear too unhelpful or insulting: I was surprised to see Ruth Archer's admission that the BBC hadn't been sent a media release and had picked up on the event from Facebook. With the greatest respect, that seems like a bit of an oversight which the organisers might think about remedying for the next event.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jane Bird
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 02:47 PM

Must people be so bad tempered? I thought us anti-fascists were opposed people being nasty to each other?

I'm quite up for a civilised and well tempered debate, though.

Cheers,
Jane

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:23 PM

I'm not just "bad tempered", I'm incandescent that H Jones (who wasn't at the FAF launch) continues to bleat that "it didn't get to the point quickly enough", alongside inexplicable, quite embarrassing, backing for that galumphing hoofer S Harris who walked out after a few minutes because they weren't doing the Notty Swing.

Both these know-alls would have done it "differently". We know that because they just can't stop saying so, sneeringly. Sounds a bit like the IMG telling the SWP that they got one word wrong in their sit-in manifesto. But it's far worse than that. It's personal abuse towards an experienced festival director and to one of our foremost and best-loved artists. Why, I wonder? Cos they're "girls"?

Perhaps you should have had the idea of setting up such an organisation first, and actually done it. I wonder if you'd have attracted 4,000+ recruits in the space of four weeks?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 03:41 PM

The whole of his last post
- Howard Jones

you know how the saying goes, those that can do (once more, well done Ruth Archer and Company!), those that can't either teach or criticise. One perhaps two people left, the rest stayed, that says it all for me, restructuring just because ONE person's needs weren't met..hey, the world doesn't revolve around YOU, so get over it!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:27 PM

Not having been at Sidmouth, I presume that this was a symbolic launch - a cutting of the ribbon. Most of those who have signed up had already done so; no doubt even more will do so in the future. The launch appears to have successfully achieved its aim in generating interest in the folk community and in the media and well done to all involved. Now the real work begins - to promote FAF in the widest arena possible. That is something all those who support this movement have to do. Let's hope that those who choose not to actively give their support will not hamper the rest of us in this.

Let's go for it!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:40 PM

I'm not demanding that any future events should be restructured. What I'm saying is that any feedback, positive or negative, should be welcomed. Most organisations do, and some pay large sums of money to gather it.

I'm not criticising the organisers of the Sidmouth event (and incidentally their gender is irrelevant to me). My criticism is aimed at those who seem to think that any feedback which they perceive as negative is an attack on the whole event, on FAF as a movement, and is supporting the BNP.

Let's recap: Steve Harris said the event didn't work for him, and so he left. Perhaps he had different expectations from the event than the organisers. When asked to, he set out succinctly what might have been done to make it work for him - points which any trainer in selling or presentation would recognise.   For that, he has been jumped on in hobnail boots. In my opinion, that is unfair on Steve (who by the way I've never met, so far as I am aware) and is not helpful to FAF because it may discourage people from offering honest feedback.

The important thing is that the organisers now know that they failed to reach at least a section of the audience and more importantly why. That should be useful information. It's up to them to judge whether that is a significant section of the audience who should be targeted next time, or whether Steve really is a minority of one. They may feel that Steve has a valid point, or they may decide that to change the order of the event would lose more people than it would gain. That's entirely up to them. The point is, whatever they decide will be a better-informed decision as a result of his feedback.

Let me say again: all feedback, both positive and negative, is good. It tells you how you are doing, and where there may be room for improvement (and there's always room for that). Eliza C obviously understood that when she asked Steve to explain what would have made it work for him. If Ruth or any of the other organisers feel that their post-event euphoria was deflated by anything I've said, then I apologise. I'm sure that by now they've also had a debrief, decided what went well and what could have gone better, and are taking on board all the feedback they've had from whatever source.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:45 PM

It would seem to me that the F A F Logo on ANY artists Albums would be a pretty good way of stopping B N P Mis selling said Albums as any
kind of support for B N P . Or is that too simplistic ?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 04:49 PM

"Let's recap"
- Howard Jones

again? We've already been through this god knows how many times, my position is not going to change anytime soon, as I stated, the world doesn't revolve around a couple of people, never has, never will do.

and it"s goodnight from her.

Olivia Beak (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:13 PM

That's one person lost to the cause, who may not have been had the event been structured slightly differently.

Howard, are you seriously suggesting that Steve Harris's and in fact anyone else's opposition to fascism depends upon the way an event like the launch is structured?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:29 PM

Ruth/Diane/ollie/guest/echo,
                      Well done! This all reminds me of the Rock against racism movement of the 1970's. A small question though - who, in the rest of England will have even heard of Sidmouth? FolK agianst what??? Stop wasting your time by fragmenting a drive to suit your own right-on purposes! A few old hippies in FaF T shirts will sort f##k all!
                      For God's sake, please get real, folk counts for nowt! jOIN A real political party, labour/conservative/wet and VOTE! We may have a rickety political system but if everyone participates the BNP have no hope.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: gnu
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:33 PM

Hmmm... my last post is about to fall off the 50 post mark and Ricky still has not answered. I guess he must be busy at other things.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:50 PM

I wish some people would stick with one membership, not to mention country. Not my main point.

For Paco, specifically, but maybe others who want FaF people to just shut up and go away: why do you care what other people are doing? If you don't think it's going to matter at all, why do you seem so pissed off?

Personally, I think the only time the world would have no chance of improving is if people stop believing they can make their ideals into reality. People might not get 100% of everything they want, but they get some of it. If they don't even try, they might as well just drop dead now and save the ale for those involved.

Your old world is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand
For the times, they are a-changin'

You're either marching forward, trying to go backward, or you're a speed bump.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:53 PM

Folkiedave, if someone goes to a launch event of anything, whether it's a product or an idea, and is kept waiting for 20 minutes before it's explained to them, then you're not going to get their attention, especially if they're not especially interested in the entertainment you're providing in the meantime.

So the answer to your question is "yes". If Joan's speech had been early on in the event instead of 20 minutes into it, Steve would have heard it. How he would then have reacted, I can't say.

Steve's message was, don't assume too much knowledge on the part of your audience and get to the point. I'm struggling to understand why this got such a hostile response.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:18 PM

I have been pretty incandescent with Diane in the past, but may I express my total agreement with and support for everything the Borchester Echo has said on this tread?

Nice to see she is not insisting that the name of the group be changed to F**k against Fascism. (jocular tweak, honest)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 07:28 PM

Sorry, typing finger went awol
Out goes John MacKenzie after tellng us how much it AMUSES him "to see people realising TOO LATE, just how obnoxious they are", previously having told us that Folk people should't be involved in politics because folk is about music".
In come Paco Rabanne to tell us folk and a few old hippies count for nowt - both have obviously decided which side they are on.
Please end the post mortem on the launch,learn whatever lessons there were to be learned (if any) and get on with the job.
Thanks for your efforts,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 07:14 AM

This is crazy. Yes by all means join a political party, vote anti-BNP, campaign against them or whatever. But doing things in other directions doesn't negate the need to confront the BNP over their attempts to expropriate our traditional culture. And joining FAF certainly won't fragment or weaken the anti-fascist movement. On the contrary, it will strengthen it.

What's more, we have an obligation to confront the BNP over this particular issue. If the BNP have started showing an interest in British folk music, it is not because they like the sound of the stuff. It is because of their crackpot white supremacist ideology. IE., they believe that the British race is one of a number of European master races, all of which have become weakened and debilitated by immigration and by absorption of foreign cultural elements. They believe, just as the nazis believed, that folk music is a product of race, and that the type of music we make is a natural consequence of our racial/genetic makeup. Therefore, as part of the process of repurifying the master race, of completing the job that Hitler started in fact, they have to eliminate all 'non-Aryan' music, whether it be Negro, Asian or Islamic.

That is why FAF is important. It is not just that fascism is detestable. It is not just because the BNP is trying to muscle in on 'our' music. It is because no-one in their right mind would stand by and watch while a bunch of nazi thugs expropriates this fabulous heritage that we have helped to nurture and propagate and preserve, and uses it as a weapon against us and against all the other races which we share this earth with.



Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Paco Rabanne - PM
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 06:29 PM

Ruth/Diane/ollie/guest/echo,
                      Well done! This all reminds me of the Rock against racism movement of the 1970's. A small question though - who, in the rest of England will have even heard of Sidmouth? FolK agianst what??? Stop wasting your time by fragmenting a drive to suit your own right-on purposes! A few old hippies in FaF T shirts will sort f##k all!
                      For God's sake, please get real, folk counts for nowt! jOIN A real political party, labour/conservative/wet and VOTE! We may have a rickety political system but if everyone participates the BNP have no hope.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 07:47 AM

Lest we forget who we are talking about - here are a couple of selections from Martin Walker's history 'The National Front - the fore-runner to the BNP before they went 'respectable'.
Jim Carroll

The most enjoyable part of the camp was the opportunity to get away from the cosmopolitanism of the cities and to live in the manner of our forefolk amidst the beauties of our own Northland, England. None will forget the comradeship round the campfire, with songs of our race and nation upon our lip and tankards of English ale in our hands.

We are the front fighters of the BNP,
True to our soil and people we will be.
Red Front and Jewry will finally fall;
Our race and nation will smash them all.

Policy statements:
Send those coloured immigrants already here back to their homelands.
Impeach the Tory Cabinet and the 1945-50 Labour Cabinet for their complicity in the black invasion and hold a trial of all those journalists who have aided and abetted them.

At the age 18, the half-caste would be given free passage to the country of its choice or he or she would be allowed to remain in Britain, enjoying all rights and privileges, including marriage, except for the fact that he or she would be legally enforced to undertake sterilization, under correct medical supervision.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Old Vermin
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:12 AM

What was that about ageing hippies? Best sort, really. Especially considering the alternative,

When's the FAF website going to show the T-shirt?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:17 AM

Actually Vermin,dear chap - I think that should be tee-shirts in the plural. I have photos of two different types.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:35 AM

here's an idea ... let's stop fighting each other, and start fighting fascism. This is just dstracting us from FaF's purpose.
Derek

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: dj bass
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 11:40 AM

I WAS at the FaF event. As I stated on another thread, it was a highlight of the week for me (and I was a Ham Evening ST holder so I saw some "headline" acts).

Before he sang the first song, Steve Knightley clearly stated what the issue was and his interest in taking part in the launch. Perhaps Mr Harris arrived late as well as left early. IMHO, the ratio of talk to performance was fine. I would not have wanted a long speech at the start, but then I arrived early and picked up the explanatory leaflet, badges and stickers.

I'd have liked Jim Moray to "claim" Sweet England for the good guys, which I think would have been entirely appropriate in the circumstances, but other than that I loved the content. As a general rule, I prefer to state what I am for, rather than what I am against, but I am wearing my FaF badge with pride.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:06 PM

"Lest we forget who we are talking about."
- Jim Carroll

speak for yourself, I don't forget for one nano-second who I'm dealing with.

"A few old hippies in FaF"
- Paco Rabanne

this from someone naming themselves for some fashionista *LOL* Honestly you coundn't possibly make this stuff up....

(Discover all about Paco Rabanne: perfumes (One Million, Black XS, XS, Ultraviolet, Paco Rabanne for men), accessories (watches and eyewear) and fashion *LOL*

Paco Rabanne

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 02:42 PM

Derek Schofield:- "here's an idea ... let's stop fighting each other, and start fighting fascism. This is just dstracting us from FaF's purpose."

Amen to that, except that most of the people causing the arguments on Mudcat are not FAF and have no interest in pursuing FAF ends. They are BNP trolls, who are simply seeking to sew the seeds of confusion.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:00 PM

"Amen to that, except that most of the people causing the arguments on Mudcat are not FAF and have no interest in pursuing FAF ends. They are BNP trolls"
- Fred McCormick

Fred, there either that or people whose interest in everyday life extends only to what the next fashion trend will be, when the next "big" rock concert will be and where it'll be.

and I came across this quote from the American writer Dwight MacDonald,in his book On Movies, who was referring to the late film director Otto Preminger, but it works for certain contributors to this thread...here goes

" No one is more skilled at giving the appearance of dealing with large controversial themes in a bold way without making the tactical error of actually doing so."

Stand and Be Counted
Olivia Beak (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:11 PM

Ollie, you've about nailed it. I just wish that serious contributors to what are now four Mudcat antifascist threads, would stop rising to the bait. Ignore the begrudgers and they'll go away.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: PaulF
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:14 PM

Ms Beak, you are unbearably smug, and reminiscent of another lady we had posting here, some time ago. She seemed to spend a lot of time playing piano.
PaulF

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:32 PM

Well PaulF I play guitar and mandocello,(if that's important)

Smug? only to those who don't have the parts to speak their mind in open forum If there were morewho'd do this, we'd be alot further ahead in our fight against fascism.
I think I said a few posts ago, if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the front porch, and stay out of the way of those of us who REALLY do want to do something constructive, unlike those folk who would rather bitch and whine and be completely unhelpful

Stand and Be Counted

Olivia Beak (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:40 PM

I tend to agree with some of the posters who suggest that the immoderate style of some postings here, will be a turn off to those not already converted. I've believed strongly in this cause since day one. But I too find the hostile manner of some postings, to be a real turn off to a cause I wholeheartedly support. Clear and non-offensive/non-personal points have been made by one or two posters making ever so moderate constructively critical comments, and I believe wrongly and highly emotively slated. That's as much as I have to say, as I'm not interested in bickering and bitching. I believe Joan et al are doing a fabulous job, and as soon as able, I'll be getting more practically involved. But, that's as much as I wish to add to this thread, and I feel no desire to participate any further to any threads on this subject. I believe (much as it galls me to agree with LH & Joe on the matter) they are in fact, too often detrimental to the cause they purport to support. My apologies if I offend.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 05:16 AM

To many of us fascism is an extremely emotive subject.
During my lifetime millions of men, women and children were exterminated for having the 'wrong' ethnic background, for joining trades unions, for not meeting up to the mental or physical requirements for 'the new order'...... or just for saying 'no'.
The two individuals recently elected in Britain belong to a political organisation which has at various times supported these actions, adapted them to fit a British scenario, or denied they ever happened. A number of people on this thread and elsewhere on this forum have lent their support to them, in some cases openly and in others by sneering at the efforts of the people who are attempting mount some sort of opposition.
Personally, I am not in the least surprised that discussion gets heated on occasions.
My apologies if I offend.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 06:13 AM

"For God's sake, please get real, folk counts for nowt!"

While it is true that a small movement cannot win a war on its own, it can win individual battles that impact on the piblic conciousness. But when different movements make a stand against fascism, trade unions, other arts, social enterprises, then there starts to be a joined-up anti-fascist movement that sweeps the country and the far-right become more and more marginalised.


"JOIN A real political party, labour/conservative/wet and VOTE!".

Again... stop making sweeping generalisations about those who are making a stand against the BNP. For information... I do belong to a political party - the Co-op Party. I do vote - Labour.

Anyway congratulations to getting FaF firmly established, and don't get disheartened by those who try to pour scorn on what has happened. The only do it because they know that they cannot preach their ideologies in public forum and debate without admitting what they really stand for so all they can do is "play the man instead of the ball".

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Jon Boden
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 02:31 PM

"JOIN A real political party, labour/conservative/wet and VOTE!".

I entirely agree that the best way to oppose the BNP is to engage with and vote for the mainstream political parties. As I understand it the BNP vote hasn't really gone up much, it's just that people aren't voting tory/lib/lab. (Allowing fascists to get in to power is a pretty stupid way to punish liberal politicians for being a bit liberal with their expense allowances imo.)

The main function of FAF is to provide anyone in the folk scene with a simple mechanism to prevent the BNP implying a connection with them. The BNP are less likely to sell folk cds off their website if they have a FAF logo on the back, and are less likely to infiltrate a morris team if that team wear FAF badges on their kit etc etc. The more omnipresent FAF becomes, the harder it will be for the BNP to attach itself to the folk scene in general.

I, along with the other performers at the Sidmouth launch, have no intention of turning my performances into a political platform to denounce the BNP. To do so would be to let the BNP win on one level - affording them influence totally disproportionate to their actual stature.

I am, as it happens, a member of the Labour party but I'm very keen that FAF should not become a 'left wing' organisation. FAF is about preventing the BNP from making British/English folk culture an exclusively white concern, and as such should be of interest and of benefit to all folkies whatever their party political sympathies.

I should point out that I am by no means a spokesman for FAF, just an enthusiastic supporter.

Cheers, Jon

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 02:48 PM

If one thinks of the influence of Dylan's songs in the 60s, and the Irish republican songs for much of the last century, while one might argue about whether they were "folk" I am of the view that songs, as a political lever, punch well above their weight (to mix several metaphors).

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 02:54 PM

Nice one Jon. Worried you are still in the Labour Party though!!

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 06:23 PM

that is what i have been saying all alone, we have to stand as one, tell the truth and attack the BNP in every way possible. bringing in new ideas and holding with old ideas that work.

however, if we attack everyone who voted BNP as diehard racists then we will never make some of them see sense.
if some of us are patient with those who can be got to see sense and some of us concentrate on those hardcore who cannot be talked to then we will win.
in fighting is distacting but, we also have to learn to lighten up abit when we feel like we are being disagreed with. we do not have to win arguements with each other. we should be able to see that some people just have a different way of tackling the problem.


logos on cds: would there be any way for the BNP to copy and remove the logos?

would it be possible to burn it on to the disc as well as on to the covers? i know this would be more expensive but we know all too well just how easy it is for those who know how, to mess with printed images.

take care all

and well done to all who went to codnor

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Aug 09 - 07:25 PM

I have a bell going off in my head about trademark law, EU law, and repackaging, but at this time of night, I am not sure what it is telling me.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: treewind
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 12:02 PM

The albums being sold by BNP's Excalibur trading arm are of material that was signed away to a perfectly innocent distribution/promotion company - at the time it must have been like a good deal. I'm not sure what happened next, but the same company (or the rights to the music) got taken over by the BNP who unfortunately can do what they like with it. As I understand it the original artists concerned have no legal power to influence how that material is sold or packaged, unless perhaps some serious (i.e. illegal) misrepresentation can be proved in any of the chain of business.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 12:16 PM

Hopefully the publishers haven't signed up to a sole distribution rights deal and have negotiated with other distributors, and also hopefully no retail outlets (worldwide) will but from excalibur so that there only customer will be BNP.

This can be picked up by music industry journals and maybe retailers who buy from excaliber can be named and shamed.

I don't know how expensive it would be to kitemark back-catalogues as FaF 'approved', but it would be a superb gesture for the folk music industry to set this as a standard.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 01:03 PM

"the same company (or the rights to the music) got taken over by the BNP who unfortunately can do what they like with it."

I don't think the BNP has taken over a company - I think the BNP are simply selling CDs which they've purchased from the secondary distributors.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 02:28 PM

I'll try again !!

What is the ptoblem with ANY artist making a CD having the FaF logo on the label ? This MIGHT deter BNP from trying to sell the albums as 'supporting' BNP!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: treewind
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 02:36 PM

Leadfingers:
Well, if what Ruth A. says is true, not a problem at all with new albums, almost impossible with albums in the distribution pipeline, and possible but perhaps costly if you want a repressing done with new artwork (because the pressing, printing and packaging are done all in one automated operation)

Apart from that, a good idea...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 03:09 PM

John Mckenzie,First states that he is apolitical.
apolitical means politically neutral,with respect how can voting for the SNP and the UKIP be politicaly neutral.
personally I cheer when I hear people like WAV ,and mckenzie voting for UKIP, rather than the BNP these MINORITY groups like UKIP and BNP and English Democrats ,are Made weaker by not uniting,they are all probably infiltrated by establishment agents,just as the left AND TRADE UNIONS are.
remember Ray Buckton ASLEF General secretary,and erstwhile left winger,according to the Guardian,he was reporting back to MI5,on trade union meetings.
the last pragraph is relevant here.

   

MI5 agent 'spied on
    * The Guardian, Friday 1 November 2002 01.38 GMT
    * Article history

MI5 ran an agent to monitor the activities of Dave Nellist, the Labour MP and supporter of the far left Militant group in the 1980s.

It asked the West Midlands police special branch to find an agent to infiltrate the Labour party in Coventry and cultivate Mr Nellist, then MP for the city's south east constituency.

The police special branch also ran a spy in the inner circle of the miners' leader, Arthur Scargill. Given the close relationship between the special branch and MI5, there is no doubt the spy's information was passed to MI5.

The agent, codenamed Silver Fox, provided valuable information about the tactics of the leadership of the National Union of Mineworkers and helped to break the 1984-85 miners' strike, according to former special branch officers.

The disclosures are made in the second programme in BBC2's True Spies series, to be broadcast on Sunday. It also includes an interview with David Hart, a millionaire who was Margaret Thatcher's unofficial adviser. He says he employed former SAS soldiers to protect the families of working miners during the strike.

A former West Midlands special branch officer identified as Dennis describes how, on MI5's instructions, he cultivated Militant supporters in Coventry, including Mr Nellist.

He says the agent and the MP were "pretty close". "[The agent] helped him on a lot of things. He went around with him to a lot of meetings."

Monitoring an MP raises serious questions. Although Dennis says the special branch was monitoring Militant rather than an MP, he admits that they were reporting on Mr Nellist since he attended Militant meetings.

Asked whether he was surprised MI5 put a spy on to him, Mr Nellist replies: "On a personal basis it does surprise me. What was the state doing in investigating, if it was me, an elected MP who had the support of thousands of people in the area to go off and do a job down in London?"

The special branch agent within the miners' union is described by Tony Clement, assistant chief constable of South Yorkshire police in the 1980s, as "at the level where he would sit round the table with the NUM leadership".

John Nesbit, a senior officer of the South Yorkshire police force at the time, tells the programme that the information "beat the strike, there's no doubt about that".

Stella Rimington, the former director general of MI5 and at the time responsible for countering "subversion", has repeatedly denied MI5 had an agent inside the NUM leadership. However she makes it clear MI5 received the intelligence provided by Silver Fox.

Mr Scargill said of the security services' surveillance of him that it was "not only illegal, is not only against the whole question of human rights and civil liberties, but in my view flies in the face of democracy itself".

The programme also discloses that MI5 planted an agent to weaken the influence of Derek Robinson, the union leader at British Leyland's Longbridge plant in the 1970s.

Last week the documentary named two leading trade unionists as police special branch informers. Joe Gormley, the miners' leader who presided over two successful strikes against the government in the 1970s, and Ray Buckton, the long-term leader of Aslef, the train drivers' union, were said to be among as many as 23 "senior trade unionists" who regularly passed information - unpaid - about their tactics to a secret unit of special branch.
who knows which leaders of which parties,are not reporting back to MI5.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 06:13 PM

Interesting to see they interviewed John Nesbitt.

He's the "hero" of the Rotherham Women's Support Group song about the officer who wrecked a Police Range Rover by using it to knock down a snowman pickets had built around a concrete post. The tune is "John Brown's Body" and the chorus is - "Silly bugger Mr Nesbitt". The picket line took great delight in singing it whenever he appeared.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 07:21 PM

As far as logos on CDs/Booklets are concerned, I would insist on it in the future.
Sadly any BNP muppet can go and buy my album, rip a particular track and shove it on one of their tasteless compilations (Not tasteless music, you understand!)
Which is why the work that Joan and others are doing is so important.
Dr Goebells single handedly destroyed German and Austrian Volk Music in the early 30's. Think about it. How many German Folk bands have you seen in the last 40 years? None.....The Germans that I know are ashamed of their own legacy. because it was so tainted by its Nazi connections.
Do we want this to happen here?
I don't think so.
And I must echo Anahatas point. If Steve Harris were to turn up at an English Ceilidh (Which I know he loves..Nowt wrong with that)
Only to discover that it was being funded by the BNP. Would he stay or would he go?
And Steve. Which of the three words Folk...Against...Fascism...Don't you understand? It's not rocket science is it?
And why weren't you dancing in the Anchor gardens that Friday lunchtime?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 09:44 PM

i forgot about 'ripping' but it would stop them selling whole albums, if they were to burn the logo onto the disc as well as on the cover.

do the artists invovled still get paid for it when used like this?

oooh i feel like scrapy doo.. "let me at em"!!
small but vicious! lol

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 05:36 AM

In fact having the image on the disk body is better, and should be sufficient. It would not stop compilations being made of course, as Ralphie says.

The artists would get whatever small %ge they get from retail sales, depending on their distribution contract; but would they want it anyway!?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 05:39 AM

Artists should try to get a no compilation and no coupling clause in their contracts. But normally you need to have a LOT of clout before a record company will accept that.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Stower
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 01:55 PM

This refers to quite a few posts ago (I have been away for a while) but is an important point of fact:

Howard Jones 13 Aug 09 - 06:53 PM
"Folkiedave, if someone goes to a launch event of anything, whether it's a product or an idea, and is kept waiting for 20 minutes before it's explained to them ..."

Stower 13 Aug 09 - 08:14 AM
"Steve Knightly at the FAF launch start[ed] the event with his song 'Roots' because it has been appropriated by the BNP"

In other words, one important reason for having the event was explained before the first song was sung. Anyone who was actually there would know this.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 02:51 PM

"but I'm very keen that FAF should not become a 'left wing' organisation"
- GUEST,Jon Boden
Very well put, indeed, Jon.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 03:00 PM

could the FaF not gather the royalties of the sales of the BNP and donate it to the FaF? assuming they want to of course, which i am sure thery would be happy to.

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 03:39 PM

Lest we forget.
Stoke on Trent
and there's more where he came from, just follow the links!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: John Golightly
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 02:35 AM

There are a few fundamentals here which I think are being missed –

1)        Good & inspiring music has always been subject to hijack/misuse (call it what you will) by those with a particular political or religious agenda. This has happened throughout history.

2)        There's *** all anyone can do about this

3)        Any music worth its salt will generally transcend any spurious association with a political or religious view.

The classic example – in the mid 1500's a Finnish student put together a collection of traditional Folk & dance Tunes, some thought to be already 500 years old at that time, & labelled them as "belonging" (!)to the church. The incentive came from the highest political levels as part of a strategy to bring some peace & unity at what was a very bloody time.
Four centuries later, Mike Oldfield (amongst others) "rescued" some of these tunes & brought them back into the Folk genre where they originated. Amongst the tunes – "In Dulci Jubilo".
(http://soonyritys.net/tapio/PC.notes.html, google "Piae cantiones")

Pieces of Folk music don't "belong" to anyone – they just are. If you agree with that statement, then where's the sense in starting a tug-of-war over an aspect of our culture? It lays you wide open to exactly the same charge, of "using" that music for your own political ends. The fact that you're "against" rather than "for" a particular viewpoint, is neither here nor there.

It's not much of an answer if you feel deeply about Fascism, I know, but the only practical answer to this hijacking is to live with it, ignore it, move on, & find some other front on which to fight Fascism.

John Golightly

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 03:02 AM

Excellent John!!......but this is not about the music, it's about ego, hatred, a raison d'etre! On both sides.

I think you must have stumbled into the wrong site, reason is frowned upon here....:0)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 03:23 AM

Message to Steve Harris.
Have just listened to the field recording of the concert. and the aims and message of FaF were clearly stated in Paul Sartins introduction to the concert....I can only assume you missed it. It was blatantly obvious to me....!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 03:38 AM

John, you appear to have missed some fundamentals of copyright and defamation law, although copyright of course is not relevant to material the copyright in which has expired - and copyright was at most in its formative period as a concept in the 1500s and possibly rather less.

More significantly in current terms, if a recording of a performance of a person (or composition of a person) is used to support a cause, it implies that that performer or composer supports that cause.

If that performer or composer has previously stated that he does not support that cause, then the use of the recording implies that the performer or composer is a liar.

The Republicans in the USA have I think felt impelled to settle legal proceedings brought there by Bruce Springsteen on (I understand) similar grounds.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 03:57 AM

This is also a fundamental misreading of both the history of 'In Dulci Jubilo' and medieval attitudes to music.

The real parallel, as has been pointed out already by various contributors to the thread, is the effect of the Nazi's use of folk music.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 03:58 AM

John, the reason for FAF (if you read what's on the Facebook site, or one of the leaflets) is to raise awareness of a couple of things that many people did not realise was going on. Firstly, that the BNP are trying to insinuate themselves into traditional events and encouraging members to revive old folk customs and create their own St George's Day and May Day events. What's more, folk musicians and dancers at all levels might be asked to take part in these events, and unwittingly becime part of the BNP's propaganda. This is far less likely to happen if lots of people know what's going on, and feel empowered to question who is backing/funding any events they are asked to participate in.

Now, if you feel that the best strategy for dealing with this is simply to "live with it, ignore it and move on", I guess that's your prerogative. But personally, I would want to know if I was being used/manipulated in the interests of far-right propaganda and/or fundraising. What's more, it's quite possible that, without an awareness of these strategies, some of our most beloved traditional events (which are often organised by a small handful of local people) could fall under the influence of far-right participants, who have no real interest in the tradition beyond trying to hijack it as part of a BNP propaganda campaign.

Thirdly, there are musicians who already find that their music is being used as propaganda by the BNP and other far-right groups, and to raise money for their coffers. They have tried to get the BNP to stop selling their music; the BNP has said that the more they object, the more they will do it. FAF has, once again, been created to raise awareness of what is happening, and to give the artists in question the opportunity to publicly distance themselves from the way in which their music is being subverted.

So there we go: very specific responses to a very specific set of circumstances which have emerged. I would agree that, if this movement were simply about sticking two fingers up at the BNP, it would be pretty pointless and serve only really to stroke the egos of the people involved. But in terms of what the group is for, I think it has already gone some way to achieving its aims.

The next thing is the week of events next year, in which we hope that lots and lots of people will participate - because the only way to get this message out beyond our relatively tiny world is for members to take it into their own communities, and raise the awareness beyond the folk world of this threat to traditional culture and music - because this heritage belongs to everyone, not just folkies. God knows it's hard enough to get the rest of the world to engage with their own folk heritage in any meaningful way - imagine how much harder that would be if it becomes tainted by association with the BNP because we all decided it was much easier to "live with it, ignore it, move on"...

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 04:11 AM

.... "& find some other front on which to fight Fascism." (to complete the quotation)

John

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 04:17 AM

Yes, but this is not simply some nebulous anti-fascist movement. This is a SPECIFIC response to a SPECIFIC set of circumstances. It is about awareness-raising. If you want to fight fascism on some other front, by all means do it. The two things are not mutually exclusive. But those of us who started FAF thought that the threat was real enough, and scary enough, to want to do something about it before it was too late.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,MtheGM
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 04:47 AM

This is not a new situation. My monthly "Taking The Mike" column for Folk Review of April 1976 was about an "Old English Day" being organised by Lady Birdwood, a then well-known precursor of the BNP, which was to include 'brass bands and morris dancers'. I pointed out the true nature of the organisation represented by Lady Birdwood, and warned morris sides to look out for the tendentious blandishments of an invitation to perform in this event, Vigilance was need then and it is needed now. All the negative, and indeed hostile, comments this thread has incurred are patently misplaced. FAF won't stop the BNP in its tracks all by itself; but, as Messrs Tesco never tire of reminding us [in a slogan pinched from a salvage campaign in WWii which some of us are old enough to recall], "Every Little Helps".

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 06:12 AM

Does a recording artist have NO control over what use his recordings are put to ? Or can ANYONE Do What They like as long as they pay royalties ?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 06:43 AM

Well, Steve Knightley eventually got his song, Roots, taken off the BNP website, but I think that legal action was either threatened or taken first.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 07:35 AM

Terry, it depends on what the artist signed. That is the effect of a contract.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: BB
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 09:24 AM

Does anyone know how one gets hold of stickers for CDs, instrument cases, etc., T-shirts and leaflets? I can't find any clues on the Facebook or FaF sites. Not having been at Sidmouth for the concert...

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 09:35 AM

The official website will begin selling merchandise in September. Otherwise, there will be t-shits, badges, leaflets and stickers about at Whitby and Towersey.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 09:39 AM

t-shits? Canb't wait to get one.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 09:48 AM

oh dear.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 10:56 AM

Ah yes, the Dowager Lady Jane Birdwood as cited by Mike above, was a truly nasty and dangerous piece of work, aptly described in her Searchlight obit as "a very English extremist". I came across her many times in courtrooms when reporting incitement to racial hatred cases when she was almost always acquitted. The establishment seemed in awe of her title and regarded her as merely eccentric and just a bit bonkers. It is to be hoped that the BNP supported arrested last Saturday on a similar charge while actually under police escort won't be similarly let off. Oddly, she lived in an Acton council flat near an aptly-named pub, The Old Oak, a notorious 1970s nazi hangout where they gathered to sing the Horst Wessel-Lied (yes, they really did, I heard them while picketing outside). It is believed that the fire which destroyed the pub was started by rival nazis. Who knows? Homebase stands there now and the fascists are infinitely more sophisticated. That is why opposition has to be very specific and focussed on single issues. FAF is a bid to wrest English music from the grasp of a few who want to misappropriate it for thir own evil ends: just one strand in the overall anti-fascist struggle which is far broader than a far-left campaign. It is for the right of all citizens of the Place Called England to play our music as loudly and proudly as we damn well like.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 02:08 PM

"It is for the right of all citizens of the Place Called England to play our music as loudly and proudly as we damn well like"
- The Borchester Echo

and on whatever instruments we choose to play the music!

Stand and Be Counted

Olivia Beak (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 03:29 AM

Hello Guest fashionista.
Give my fondest regards to Mr Griffin.
And then kindly and sweetly go away.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 03:38 AM

Doh! Haven't you heard? Folkies like last year, the year before rather better, and so on...

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 03:52 AM

In 1929 Hitlers Nazi Party is the smallest in the Reichstag. Four years later he had taken power and the first thing he did was to lock up or terrorise his parliamentary opponents and then begin the process of dismantling the organisations of German society and its working class in particular.

It was a catastrophe that was directly to lead to the slaughter of many millions. Something that Griffin was to mock and deny.

We certainly can't allow a bunch of Hitler loving thugs to grow unopposed in this country.We have the lesson of history to warn and guide us!Griffin and Brons are two openly racist and fascist MEPs.Part of Griffin's plan is to use the symbolism of English culture [including folk song,dance and customs ] to develop support for his thuggish cadre.

Hence the formation of Folk Against Fascism.On his side he has got the old nazi marching songs while we have the songs of Ewan McColl,Hamish Henderson, Woody Guthrie, Paul Robeson, and so many more. I was told that one of the songs that the anti fascists sang at Codnor on saturday was an adapation of Yellow Submarine..now there is a song being assimilated into the folk tradition!
ifor

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Realist
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 06:12 AM

Message deleted. If you post at Mudcat, you may post under one name, and one name only.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 06:26 AM

White supremacist convicted of plotting bomb terror plot

In one notebook Lewington had written what was described in court as "a chilling mission statement" from what is termed "the command council Waffen SS UK".

It stated: "We have 30 members... we are highly trained ex-military personnel and will use incendiary and explosive devices throughout the UK at random until non-British people as defined by blood are removed from our country. This is no joke."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 06:29 AM

David Copeland the killer

"He joined the extremist BNP and became an activist. In 1997 he was photographed standing next to the party's founder John Tyndall."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 06:32 AM

'Realist' Just be correct and don't let facts get in the way of your prejeudices!

A British National Party member and former (3 times failed) candidate stockpiled weapons and explosive chemicals as he prepared for a civil war in Britain, a court heard yesterday.
Robert Cottage, 49, had amassed an arsenal of dangerous weapons as he prepared for armed conflict in the UK,

He met retired dentist David Jackson, 62, at a BNP meeting and the pair gathered a vast array of different chemicals that could be used to make bombs.

A police raid uncovered a vast array of weapons and chemicals all of which could have been used to kill and seriously maim.
Officers found four air pistols with ammunition, a number of crossbows, a bow and arrow, up to 19 different explosive chemicals and two nuclear protection suits.
They also recovered a 300-page computer document called the Anarchy Cookbook which detailed how to make different types of bombs

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 06:33 AM

Searchlight exposes racial terrorism link in the BNP

"Fifteen years ago South Africa was in the process of dismantling apartheid.

The white supremacists of the terrorist Afrikaner Weerstand Beweging (AWB) were trying to prevent the move towards majority rule and to restore the racist system.

Three men had planted a home-made bomb at the Calvary Church School in protest against the school's decision to become racially mixed.

When the bomb failed to go off, one of them lost his nerve, gave himself up to the police and turned in his two associates, one of which was Nieuwhof.

At the end of the resulting court case he received what Searchlight claims was a derisory 12-month suspended prison sentence.

Leaving South Africa Nieuwhof set off for Britain, where he came into contact with Arthur Kemp, another South African extremist exile, who had been arrested for the murder of Chris Hani, a close colleague of Nelson Mandela, in April 1993 but released without charge.

Kemp had been named by Clive Derby-Lewis, a far-right South African MP who is now serving life imprisonment for setting up Hani's murder, as the author of a hit list of prominent anti-apartheid leaders.

Kemp too has become influential in the BNP. His articles appear on the BNP website and his 586-page tome March of the Titans comes highly recommended on the BNP's booklist."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 06:35 AM

Hope Not Hate exposes BNP terrorists

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 06:41 AM

sigh, once again an anoymous troll disrupts a thread - no doubt in another attempt to get an important topic relegated to BS.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 19 Aug 09 - 02:19 PM

They're five feet two and they are six feet four
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
They've been English for a thousand years

They're Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, atheist, Jain,
Buddhist, Baptists and Jews
They have always been here
and they know they always will
They are you, my friends and me

They've come from Canada,
They've come from France,
and even from the USA,
They've come from Russia
They've come from Japan,
Together we can put an
end to BNP ways

(with apologies to Buffy Saint Marie)

Olivia Beak (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Stower
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 12:54 PM

I have just discovered, via this page, that the BNP are not only planning to worm their way into the folk world but also into the trade union movement.

We should all beware.

In the light of recent developments, it will be interesting to see if they try to make 'Solidarity' (ironic name, given what their Polish namesake stood for) a whites-only union, and whether that will stand up legally.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:34 PM

I am disturbed and disappointed that I recently suggested to the organiser of an event that he should display the "Folk against Fascism" banner, only to have him refuse. It is a shame that friends of mine have been booked to play and I should probably have liked to go to see them.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: jeddy
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 09:15 PM

i intend to try too richard, when the leaflets and posters come out. i really hope i have more luck. it was very iresponsible for your friend to refuse. please try again, he might have just been in a bad mood, or in the middle of something?

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Stower
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 07:54 AM

Richard, did you ask why he refused? I'm wondering if there could be a legitimate reason that doesn't suggest he's *for* fascism (though I can't think of one now. Maybe, from a business point of view, he doesn't want to put off paying punters that he thinks may support the BNP? - which is still indefensible, in my view.) Would his answer make a difference?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: dj bass
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 08:12 AM

In addition to their misappropriation of folk music, the BNP membership rules are riddled with the word "folk". See this BBC article on legal action against the BNP. What the hell are "the Anglo-Saxon folk community" for example?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 08:46 AM

I do not want to do more than I have done to identify my friend in question. Yes I got a reason. No I did not think a lot of it.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 09:07 AM

BNP usage of the word folk is just one disturbing straw in the wind, regarding their Nazi afilliations. At the core of Hitler's Germany was the idea that purification of the German nation did not just entail purging the country of all those elements which were considered non-Aryan. It also entailed a return to its 'healthy' peasant roots. A return to the roots meant a return to the volksgemeinschaft or folk community.

As with so many other pieces of Nazi terminology, British fascists merely anglicised the term when incorporating it into their own belief system.

If anyone tells you the BNP are not Nazis, they are either liars or misinformed.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:13 AM

"It has nothing to do with discrimination; it's all to do with internal politicking"
- Lee Barnes, BNP, on theEquality and Human Rights commission's legal action

Really? And just how stupid does Lee Barnes think we are?

Is me stating that my skin colour is not white and my ethic group is not Anglo-Saxon politicing or simply stating the facts?

The BNP are racist, anti-semetic, homophobic (wonder how many closeted cases there are in the BNP?) and a whole lot more. That's not politicing, thems the facts Jack! It's that simple.

Stand and Be Counted!

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:30 AM

Hey Ms Robertson..
Until your last post I hadn't even considered what your skin colour might be!!
You have just come across as a decent person..!
And you continue to do so...
Isn't that the point? It's not how someone looks it's what they say.
Pleasure to know you.
Ralph (Oh, I'm white, just to clear the air !!!!!)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:44 AM

and a pleasure to meet you too Ralph!! :-)

and just too REALLY annoy the BNP *LOL*, I'm one quarter Welsh, one quarter Scots and half Mohawk, though I get skin and hair colouring from my late mother, Dad's from England.

You're right, Ralph, skin colouring, ethic background etc...isn't the point, it's basically are we all decent people, and for the most part, here on Mudcat, we are just that.

Stand and Be Counted!

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms0

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:50 AM

Ok Charlie.....(can I call you Charlie?)
Standing Up.....
Ready to be counted. Here we go....

ONE.

Oh I've just fallen over!
(didn't hurt much!)
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:55 AM

"The BNP are racist, anti-semetic, homophobic (wonder how many closeted cases there are in the BNP?)"

Ollie. I was just wondering that myself. Whilst I am totally opposed to homophobia, even when applied to gay members of the far right, I'm beginning to wonder if the BNP ever came to power, whether it would end up exterminating a large segment of its own membership.

First of all, it's well known that Martin Webster - not a BNP member, granted, but the one time second in command of the National Front - is gay. It's also well known that he claims to have had a gay relationship with Nick Griffin. Griffin denies it of course, but he would wouldn't he.

Then I was reading a BBC news report a while ago about an MI5 mole who managed to infiltrate the National Front. According to the report, homosexuality is extremely prevalent among the far right, and said mole got a lot of his intelligence by sleeping with male fascists.

Then just yesterday I learned that Eoghan O'Duffy, pre-war leader of the Irish blueshirt fascist movement was also a closet homosexual.

None of this is very conclusive of course. But in the cases of Webster and O'Duffy and any others like them, could it be that that their identification with fascism has some psychological derivation from their homosexuality?

IE., I'm wondering if such indivduals turn to fascism as a way of overcompensating for their self perceived failure to measure up to what they regard as 'normal' standards of decency.

BTW., a chilling note. Although the Third Reich ended up exterminating between ten and fifteen thousand homosexuals, official policy was to quote "re-educate" them. BNP policy is to quote "reform" homosexuals and the congenitally disabled. Reforming with a gas chamber, I rather think.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 12:12 PM

Now this is interesting reading:

The Pink Swastika: Homosexuality in the Nazi Party

warning: turn on your pop up blocker for this site, I was cascaded with pop up ads when I opened it.

Stand and be Counted!

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 01:06 PM

Mrs Beak - having stood up to count and taken off my socks, I made that three halves to your ancestry. Confusing!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 01:14 PM

I'm one quarter Welsh, one quarter Scots = one half
and half Mohawk = the other half

equals

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

"Ok Charlie.....(can I call you Charlie?)
Yes you can, everyone else does (my kids call me a proper charlie, sometimes *LOL*

now will someone please pick Ralph up...wait! that didn't come out right *LOL*

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 01:40 PM

And then there was "Dad's from England" - made up another half so that's three halves!!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 02:10 PM

......my dad was born England, of a Welsh father and a Scots mother hence my quarter and quarter....
Now back to our regular scheduled programming

Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 02:24 PM

Did anyone see This I mean where does it all stop?

Stand be Counted!
Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 02:24 PM

Bit of Angle..Smidge of Saxon..
Maybe in the mists of time a Hun or two? (Maybe a Goth...or indeed a Visigoth!)
Probably some Frenchy Norman stuff.
Deffo on the Celt Side...Grandfather
from Cork.
Hope there is a bit of Scandiwegian in there. (It would account for my musical proclivities)
No hint of Welsh though...Ho Hum. Can't win them all.
Bah Humbug.....not a Gerbil in sight!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 02:51 PM

Guess what folks. I've just had a request from Facebook informing me that one Sam Hudson, member of the British National Party, wants to add me as a friend.

Sam, I've got some very peculiar friends but none as peculiar as you.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 03:06 PM

well, well, well, our mystery friend (not really a friend) has surfaced again has he? Does this person have NO shame? (silly question really). An attempt at divide and conquer? (nope, Sam H doesn't have brains for that

Just plain peculiar? That's probably as close as it gets, Fred.

Ralph, I'm glad we finally have all this sorted out *LOL*

Stand and be Counted!

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

the BNP are not my friends

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Peace
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 03:15 PM

The BNP are assholes.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 03:20 PM

After receiving the said email I remembered that I have an old and unused Facebook account. I've just de-activated it and suggest anybody who gets a "friendship" message from someone like that should do the same.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 11:03 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: Legal action over BNP membership
From: GUEST,Sam - PM
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 09:34 AM

Joe Offer made it VERY CLEAR there would only be ONE BNP thread on mudcat, currently there are THREE (including Richard's ego driven paraniod one). Would someone please remove two as Joe requested.

Thank you

What's the matter, dearie, feeling a wee bit insecure, are we, with all the justified attacks on your racist, anti-semetic, homophobic friends?
Well, you know what? That's just TOO bad, if you don't like it, go away!

Stand and Be Counted!
Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
Uppity "Indian"

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 12:22 PM

This from the Home Affairs Desk of the BBC:
Racists kidnapped Muslim leader
and the quote from Councillor Pat Richardson, leader of the BNP group on Epping Forest District Council,

She said: "It's terrible, I don't agree with these illegal actions. I must say the BNP has no link to the incident.

and the moon is made from green cheese eh Pat?

Stand and Be Counted!

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
Uppity "Indian" chick

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 12:35 PM

Please keep the politics in the BS threads and keep this one for FaF events. gigs, promotion, and music issues so that this important subject doesn't get bumped down below the line.

BTW are any FaF gigs or events in the pipeline?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 12:39 PM

"Please keep the politics in the BS threads"
- SPB-Cooperator
the one is inter-twined with the other, it was politics that led to the music that led to the creation of FaF in the first place.

Please pay attention in future.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson
Uppity "Indian" chick

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 12:55 PM

True, but this thread started out about what FaF has been doing, but now it is duplicating the discussing and arguments in the other two threads, and if it gets booted down to BS then things like Sam/Realist and his/her BNP cronies will have succeeded in marginalising what FaF is achieving.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,JaneB
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 01:16 PM

I was at Sidmouth and went to the launch, which I thought was great. I was expecting the speeches first, just like Mr Harris. But I thought that was because I am, even worse than an ageing hippie, a red nappy baby(US usage red-diaper). The left also has its traditions, some of which are boring and alienating. Why not try doing it differently for once? The point was not for folk music to single-handedly defeat the fascist hordes but to make it clear that we will not let the BNP sing, dance or speak claiming it is in our name.
On a slightly separate tack, thinking about how to counterxenophobia in folk music while preserving and developing music in the folk idiom, perhaps it is time to challenge the Ewan McColl dictum that you should only sing the music of your own country. (He notably failed to follow his own advice). Dogan Mehmet shows how Turkish tunes can revitalise English music (and for all I know English tunes revitalise Turkish ones). Perhaps we should be on the look out for non-English folk musicians to invite to our clubs and events. Some of us might consciously include the odd "foreign" folk song in our sets. Last week at Bodmin Folk Club the evening concluded with 2 Londoners, a Scot and an Ulster-man joining a "Proper Cornish" couple to sing a Cornish anthem. It was done quite unself-consciously but made an interesting point. Trouble is African music is, musically too difficult for me, better brush up on my Japanese:) Jane B

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 01:54 PM

'This from the Home Affairs Desk of the BBC:
Racists kidnapped Muslim leader'

This news item was already reported in some detail at 07:31 AM (mudcat time) this morning in an appropiate thread in the BS section

- I agree that this thread should be kept for discussions about music or the demands, by some, for it to be delegated to BS will appear to have validity.

It's not just folk performers who have been usurped by the BNP however.

The Love Music Hate Racism campaign grew out of the Rock against Racism movement and shows what our record shops might look like if the racists got their way on you tube

Blur and Pink Floyd are among musicians demanding the British National Party stops selling their music to raise campaign funds.

The BNP's commercial partner, Excalibur, sells a range of compilation CDs with titles such as Proud Heritage, Rule Britannia and The White Cliffs of Dover

And meanwhile, 'the BNP blow tens of thousands of pounds of BNP members donations renting, equipping and staffing the studio that the BNP set-up to record music for a risible BNP front called (as if to willingly confirm that the BNP are sharks) Great White Records. GWR produces 3rd rate volk songs by BNP chairman Nick Griffin and pours BNP money into propping-up the walking PR disaster known as BNP pop "star" Joey Smith (aka failed BNP Dewsbury election candidate Joseph Barber).'

- because it recognizes the power of music and song
So let's keep this thread rolling (rocking too!) for information about gigs, events or music discussion

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 02:40 PM

Of course this thread should stay above the line. In fact it probably is the most important music thread of all.
Thats not disparaging all the threads on instruments, song roots, and other fascinating information, but, the insidious rise of misplaced nationalism is a real threat to us all.
And, the wilful theft and misrepresentation of artists work (and I include other genres, ie. Rock, etc, in this) against their will, cannot be tolerated.
Hopefully the website should be up and running in a week or so, and no doubt Ms Archer will let us know when it is.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 02:45 PM

"So let's keep this thread rolling (rocking too!) for information about gigs, events or music discussion"
- Emma B.

The forth-coming website will in all likelyhood provide all the aforementioned information, thus, eventually, making this thread redundant.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
Uppity "Indian" chick

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Flashmeister
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 05:22 PM

To stay somewhat on topic (!) I'm getting a little crew together to start making motions to host a Luton FaF event and get that sorted so hopefully that'll come together nicely in time for the April/May event calender.
Anyone in the Beds, Herts, Bucks area who wants to get involved PM me (And no, I will not be entertaining nor rising to the feeble bait of BNP apologists or crypto-fascist trolls via PM :-) thank you)
Also as an aside i feel it is pretty important to make our voices heard that the attempted infiltration and hijacking of trad events and music will not be tolerated. I for one will do my level best to counter any BNP nonsense and personally find that posters like 'Sam' read very much like a propaganda leaflet so I when they crop up in threads I 'virtually' screw it up and throw it away like i would teh paper copy )paper BNP leaflets are second to none for scooping cat shit out of the flower beds i find!!)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Sam
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 08:21 PM

Joe, there are currently three BNP threads up here at present, two below the line and one above, this one (Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth has turned into another). If you read the comments (today) you will see that the troll that arrived here last month is stirring the pot on all of them.

Please keep to your word and place a limit of only one at a time. You do recall saying that ?

Thanks

Sam

---

Sam, you are not a registered or identified member of Mudcat, and you have no status here. You are not welcome here - you are merely tolerated, and you are being closely watched. We do not allow discussion of Mudcat editing policy in threads, and you have violated that prohibition several times today. If you wish to discuss Mudcat editing, contact me by e-mail, [e-mail].
What I said was that we would allow one thread discussing the BNP to be active at a time. However, I said we will also allow separate threads for events, such as this one discussing the Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth. As has been recognized by some posters, the discussion is curtailed when it moves away from discussion of the event.
But that is of no concern to you, since you are merely an uninvited and unwelcome guest here, and you have not even done us the courtesy of telling us who you really are.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 08:22 PM

'pot'?

calling kettle?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Sam
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 08:47 PM

Right, got your message Joe. So as I understand it, you move the goal posts according to the level of pressure from the inner circle, have I got it right ?

So if someone starts a thread about "shoes" and spots a BNP member wearing a similar pair and forty posts later they are still talking about the BNP and nobody is talking about shoes that is acceptable to you ?

By the way, I AM member Sam Hudson, lost password, a few here know me.

Sam

---

Fine, Sam. E-mail me and request your password, giving me the e-mail address you used when you signed up - and then log in to reset your cookie. Otherwise, all of your posts will continue to be under strict scrutiny, and you will continue to be considered an Unwelcome and Uninvited Guest. Please address this issue by private discussion with me in e-mail - NOT in the Forum.
-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,fiddley
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 10:32 PM

when there's a BNP Morris side then we're in trouble

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Smokey.
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 11:31 PM

Oh I don't know, Fiddley - swastika armbands with bells attached, tin hats, jackboots, goose-stepping their way through 'The Nuremberg Processional'.. It'd give passers-by something to spit at.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 11:48 PM

"By the way, I AM member Sam Hudson, lost password, a few here know me.

Sam"

Why are you stealing identities on Facebook?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge elsewhere on his network
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 02:11 AM

Well, Sam, interesting if true. Now also please tell us why you are seeking information on "Roger the Chorister" from your fakebook nazi cronies - unless it is to threaten?

And why you have recently joined a number of groups such as "I hate Emma B", "Emma B is a lesbian group", why you are a fan of the fake mudcat, why you befriended the fake "Mad Murdoch", "Old Richard" (whoever he is supposed to be) and that strange sax player from St Cloud.

And why you are also conspiring with your nazi cronies to pretend that I sent abusive messages to "Leah Green" (although she appears to welcome them from so many others, including some of quite disturbing appearance)?

Or are you now going to pretend that although you are "Sam Hudson" here you are not "Sam Hudson" there?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 04:47 AM

Well, there is an August 1997 post by a member Sam Hudson - about Altan.

In 1998 the same member was looking for the words to a song from "the Little Red Songbook".

Not very like the current "Sam" on here, is it?

Moreover, the member Sam made very few posts, which hardly sits very well with the current assertions by him to Mrs Beak stating that Mrs Beak was a noob whereas the member Sam well established.

I wonder if the current user of the BNP's lonely brain cell was using a search function to see what had been said here about the fakebook Sam Hudson, discovered the not-recently-used membership, and decided to see if he could con the 'cat into letting him in as a member.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 04:53 AM

RB, Joe will demote this thread to BS, if it goes off topic. Have a care..

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 05:52 AM

Ralphie:- Hopefully the (FAF) website should be up and running in a week or so...........

That's excellent news. Any chance we can launch it with one of those tankards of English ale, so beloved of our enemies, and a few appropriate songs?

Seriously, I don't know whether FAF will include a forum. If there is one I trust that it will be very strictly moderated,with no fights, no flame wars, no off-topic postings, nu guests, and no closet fascists.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 10:08 AM

"RB, Joe will demote this thread to BS, if it goes off topic. Have a care.. "
-Crow Sister

Last time I looked Altan were a musical entity, therefore what Richard is saying is within the mandate of this thread, mine wasn't, and for that I do apologise to the thread participants, but racism (sometimes extreme) has been a part of my life, for all of my life.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
uppity "Indian" chick

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 08:16 PM

Owen. Really don't know if the FaF website will have a forum. Somehow I doubt it. The organisers are really busy people and I think that to moderate a forum would be a bit too much. I'd rather they carried on the organisational work for next years gigs.
But it will hopefully be a useful bookmark to see what is up and coming.
Well, we'll see in a bit won't we!
Anyway there is a FaF group on Face book, where discussions can tale place.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 05:31 AM

Ralphie. FAF website forum. I agree with your priorities. However, with the best will in the world, Mudcat isn't best placed to moderate the fascist hordes, or control the in-fighting that keeps breaking out among our own side, and is most annoying and counterproductive.

Two possibilities spring to my mind.

1. Could the FAF organisers get someone to moderate a forum for them?

2. If that's not feasible, I wonder if a FAF Yahoo Group, independent of the main organisation but closely reflecting its aims and policies might be a goer? The sort of thing I have in mind is analogous to Tradsong Forum, where one person maintains the TSF website, and someone else runs the Yahoo discussion group. If you've never tried one, Yahoo groups are easily monitored. Plus, the way BNP threads keep breaking out all over Mudcat is starting to worry even me.

Let's see what comes out the FAF site first anyway.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:33 AM

Hi Owen.

Fair points well made.
As we all know, the very fact that Mudcat is (mainly) un-moderated, is a good and a bad thing. Good that it allows vigourous debate, but bad when it's targeted by the likes of the bnp, who will stop at nothing to subvert any thread.
As you say, let's wait until the website is up and running, and I'm sure the organisers would welcome ideas from the rest of us.
(They're still probably travelling back from Towersey and Shrewsbury!)
Ralph

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Taconicus
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 09:46 AM

The merits of the respective parties aside, this seems like a serious case of "Political use of folk music for me, but not for thee."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 10:49 AM

Owen and Ralph - a forum in another place may or may not be possible or desirable (they're free and easy to set up but hard to keep spam-free, never mind keeping out the flame-throwers).

But a forum elsewhere won't stop the topic cropping up here ALL the time - and Mudcat will always get far more traffic than any FaF-controlled site.

So FaF supporters will always have to keep an eye on here, and react as required. No point in spreading the workload too wide.

Taconicus. Every opinion is political. Even moderate middle ground views are political. Nothing wrong with that. In this situation moderate political views are being expressed to counteract some extreme political views. That's not "Political use of folk music for me, but not for thee," it's just opinions.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 12:12 PM

Personally I believe a forum at the FaF site is a tremendous idea, and a moderated one at that.

"No point in spreading the workload too wide"
- GUEST,Tom Bliss

get more people involved in the process and stop making excuses.

No point in spreading the workload too wide
- GUEST,Tom Bliss

same as above.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Taconicus
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 12:22 PM

Tom, I'm not talking about opinions here on this forum (wherever it is; I no longer see this thread when I go to "Forum Home" or the mudcat.org main page thread list). I'm talking about the hypocrisy in this particular movement, which is fairly blatant. It is NOT just moderate political views being expressed to counteract extreme political views (definition of "extreme": whatever the ~other guy~ is saying). This seems to be an attempt to silence the other guy, that's all. The following is from the BBC News article referenced (and linked) in the first post in this thread.

"Music has been a very powerful political tool, usually for the left. What concerns me is that the BNP could do the same thing from a far-ight perspective." - Joan Crump, founder of "Folk Against Fascism."

The movement may have had its origins in the objections by artists to use of their own songs for purposes to which they do not subscribe, but as applied it seems to be premised on the principle that only the left have the moral right to use folk music for political purposes. And that is, indeed, "political use of folk music for me, but not for thee." The people who most loudly decry the use of folk music by ~those people~ to push ~their~ political causes, seem to be the first to object to any suggestion that they shouldn't use folk music themselves to push their own political causes on any audience who just showed up to hear some good music.

Now the actual expression of the movement, if it comprises singing songs that give their own point of view, I'm all for that. What I'm calling out is the notion that folk music must be the exclusive province of only one camp. When that becomes fact, it will only be because freedom of speech has ceased to exist.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 12:50 PM

Careful Taconicus, next the old line "if you're not with us then you're against us' will be hurled at you.Somwhere in this thread Jon Boden commented that he did not want to see FaF become a tool of the left, to which I agreed, unfortunately I think it maybe too late, FaF has become just that.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Taconicus
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:04 PM

Thanks for the concern, Ms. Ollivia. But most political movements (and I mean "political" in the original sense of the word) do become political in the partisan sense, some more quickly than others. That's just the way of the world, as is having to dodge brickbats when you speak out about anything, and people start pointing at you and chanting "You are not of the body!" (old Star Trek reference, there). I'm not too worried; most folks here are pretty friendly despite our differences (and thank goodness for differences).

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:08 PM

Charlotte - have you ever moderated a forum? It can demand a lot of time and attention, and a forum that's likely to be as contentious as a FaF one would need a great deal of moderating. I'm not saying don't do it, specially if volunteers can be found, but bear in mind that like motorways forums can create more traffic than they relieve (and a FaF one would would soon attract BnB supporters and become battleground).

My main point was to remind others that starting a FaF forum would not remove the topic from Mudcat. I won't mention mudmod policy here, because I may not, but I can say that there are plenty of people with enlightened views on this website, so in that sense Mudcat is self-moderating, and that's a good thing if we want open-minded debate around thius.

Taconicus if understand what you're saying I don't think you need to worry on that score if you are a genuine supporter of freedom.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:10 PM

"You are not of the body!" (old Star Trek reference, there)."
- Taconicus
then there is, of course "We are The Borg, resistance is futile, you will be assimilated!" (sorry couldn't resist!)

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:12 PM

Yep, it's those bloomin Bed and Breakfast guys - they're the real enemy!

I don't think FaF will be taken over by the left. Far too many folkies (specially the ones with microphones) are wet greeny, baby-blue/pink liberals like me.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:18 PM

"Charlotte - have you ever moderated a forum?"
- GUEST Tom Bliss
Yes I have and still do, and I'm perfectly aware of the time taken to maitasin it. It's a matter of budgeting my time so that I have all my bases covered.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 02:21 PM

apart form the fact that GUEST,fashionista has no real standing on these threads due to the 'guest' status, me thinks this person talks out of both sides of his/her mouth.

A very slight condemnation of the BNP.

"The BNP talk big but there is hardly any evidence of actual infiltration"

and a good old-fashioned slamming of the left in the rest of the posting.
Oh and GUEST,fashionista, you are the one throwing the trndy political catch phrases (crypto-fascists) around, no one else has.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
(neither right nor left)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 03:09 PM

Those who won't will be branded "crypto-fascists" and driven out of the folk scene.

I'll break my usual rule not to reply to people who don't sign in - and ask for the person who wrote this to show how this could be done.

Expulsion is something the BNP are good at - which is why Matthew Single published the membership list. But I don't know how the folk world could do this.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 03:21 PM

There is an answer (to our 41-post new member would-be latin BNP troll) based on the natural and historical politics of folk music - but it would be a BS topic.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 05:05 PM

"Tim" the problem with your last assertion is that frankly no-body expects the latest "Guest Tim Whomever" to re-post anything. But we do expect Tom, or Bob or Ben or Lisa or Sam or any other number of inconsistant "Guests" with no apparent genuine interest (other than that a very superficial ideological one, inspired by far right-wing propaganda) to keep re-inventing themselves in ever increasing new on-line forms, just like the Hydra of Greek Myth.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 05:09 PM

"You have my wholesale support but isn't it a shame that the only party which does not seem to ridicule our traditions is the facsist party, where were the Labour Party when the 2 in a pub rule was forced through"
- GUEST,Tim Hague

our "Guest" was speaking out of both sides of his mouth, something I've notoced a fair amount of with a few of our past "Guests" evidence(?) that it is the same person perhaps?

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 06:01 PM

It is of course gibberish that Hague utters. The 2-in-a-bar rule was the pre-existing rule pursuant to which 2 performers on a licensed bar needed no additional licence. The number of performers was conted over the whole evening, and recorded accompaniment de-activated the exemption.

The Licensing Act removed that exemption.

It was proposed and bulldozed (including by the use of untruth) by the DTI and DCMS (theoretically civil servants, but under Labour Party orders) but opposed by the Lib-Dems, the Conservatives, Shepherd Neame breweries, and a number of pressure groups including the Performer-Lawyer Group that I founded. It was initially oposed by the MU but they jumped ship in due course. Probably someone was offered a gong.

In the House of Lords, the Lib-Dems abandoned ship when they were offered the Morris exemption. The Conservatives stuck out for an acoustic exemption and a small gigs exemption. I was actually there at the time.

I think, Hague, that you are exposed as a troll by your own ignorant words. I am reminded of your party's website, which thinks that "'Obby 'Oss" is spelt "Hobby Horse". So much for a genuine love of traditions.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Tim Hague
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 02:40 AM

Richard
Where do you get your assertion from that I actually have a party, as far as I'm concerned `I'd toss them all up in a high gale of wind' etc,

and as regards the `Obby Oss', I know how its spelt, and have done for tens of years

But I suppose that whatever I say now will not convince you that I don't walk around with a skinhead haircut and a black shirt, you may realise that attitudes like that are equally fascist...

BTW why was my last post deleted?, all it said was that I had lost family to fascism and probably had more cause to dislike them than some on here...

Its a strange life

Tim

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:37 AM

For Pete's sake - what has poor Tim Hague done to warrant such an attack? Calm down, Mr Bridge. You have no evidence for your assumption that he's a member of the BNP - and such an assumption stated publicly could be perceived as defamatory.
This whole issue is getting out of hand. Yes, we hate Nazis. But do we have to go down the Bush avenue of "If you aren't with us then you're against us"?
Please, chaps - a little moderation.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 11:24 AM

"Please, chaps - a little moderation."
- Gervas Webb
Moderation isn't, never was, nor never will be, my middle name, I gave up on that nasty habit alooonnnggg time ago.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
not a chap

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:37 PM

That's unfortunate. A bit of moderation is what stops people savaging every stranger that heaves into view - like poor Tim.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:47 PM

What has he done? Ridden in, spouted the line that only the BNP support traditions (a significant part of BNP acceptanc propaganda) and supported it by a total falsehood. If it looks like a duck...

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 12:54 PM

There's nothing unfortunate about it, you've been taken in by Tim Hague and your moderation, Richard Bridge and I haven't been taken it by Mr. Hague. (we've seen this scenario time and time again) As I believe I've already stated, Mr. Hague speaks out of both sides of his mouth (but not with forked tongue [yet])
As Richard says, if it looks like a duck.....

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 02:38 PM

I bow to yours and Richard Bridge's clearly superior knowledge of the far right in the UK. Unfortunately all of Tim Hague's posts bar one seem to have been removed (unlike, strangely, those of the avowedly BNP 'Sam'), so I can't really comment now. All I do see is a massive assumption.
I happen to agree with him that none of the mainstream parties has done anything significant to boost, encourage or endorse traditional British culture, leaving the field open for the BNP. For me the comments of Labour minister Kim Howells that his idea of hell was three folk singers in a bar marked rock bottom. You can split hairs over who offered what limp support to opponents of the Licensing Act, but it doesn't convince me that any party gives a flying fart.
Still, you'll probably assume that I'm a fascist for disagreeing with you. Now that that would be a lark!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 02:49 PM

"Labour minister Kim Howells that his idea of hell was three folk singers in a bar marked rock bottom"

Yeah we know, Steve Knightley keeps reminding us in his song Roots.

"And a minister said his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells"

and moderation is to sit with your thumb up your arse and do nothing, (which is why the BNP got representatives into the European Parliament, people not getting out and voting) nasty habit that!


Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Royston
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 03:03 PM

Gervase, you are right but it's not worth getting involved. This is, unfortunately a dead thread.

Tim, your "Guest" threads were deleted, I don't know why exactly. It seems your "registered" posts will persist. I think you should stick around. Your first posts got me worried but I think all people deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Ollie, I will never suggest that anyone stop slagging off the BNP. Good luck to you. But you are becoming grossly tedious and since you arrived here (3 weeks ago) you've not really managed one original thought or contribution to any debate. I support your right, however, to keep chipping away at the fascists.

If you've only been around 3 weeks, you do need to be more circumspect about the choice of targets for your shrill squawking, because Gervase has a long heritage here and is as "sound as a pound" on these issues.

Now if you respond by calling me racist or naive on issues of racial and BNP politics then we shall know that you really have lost the plot.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 03:21 PM

"This is, unfortunately a dead thread."

Yep. I think it's probably best to let it fall off the page.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 03:35 PM

"you've not really managed one original thought or contribution to any debate"
-Royston
whatever you say.

"more circumspect about the choice of targets for your shrill squawking, because Gervase has a long heritage here and is as "sound as a pound" on these issues."
-Royston

Maybe he is maybe he isn't, time will tell

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Tim Hague
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:09 PM

Good Evening
Maybe I did not choose my words particularly well regarding the support of the tradition and for that I apologise.
We seem, as a group of people extremely reticent in promoting our folk traditions and through this we do leave it open for the dragging knuckles strain of Brits.
A small story, recently I was touring Hungary with a team of step dancers performing clog from the north east, as I sing I was asked to sing and call a few dances. There were teams from a number of Eastern European countries and France, all extremely fine dancers. There were a number of comments from the other teams to the effect that they did not know that the English had traditions of dance and song, when we performed people of all ages came out and watched.
The last time I danced in London at Westminster Morris Day of Dance, we were dancing outside Westminster Abbey, I was chatting to some of the tourists, then I met a family from the midlands, they asked `what is this?'..., they had never seen morris!
Only by reclaiming our traditions with support from Government will we get rid of this cancer in our society.

Now I dare say that somewhere in the above someone will take exception
I have broad shoulders, I'm a folky :)

Tim

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:25 PM

That is more constructive Tim, perhaps you are not what you seemed.

I am not so sure that "government support" is the best way to reclaim our heritage from lack of interest and/or extremists.

But reclaim it we should.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Royston
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:26 PM

You're quite right, Tim. That's why FaF is a great step forwards - explicitly claiming our heritage as ours, and available to all, not leaving it to a bunch of heartless, talentless scum whose only artistic tools are a CD replicator and blood & guts fascist rock acts.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:34 PM

I've seen what government support can do when trying to reclaim anything, you end up with all the attendent paperwork, in triplicate please, and more headaches than you would ever want.

People will have their opinions on the eventual effectiveness of the FaF, I know I have mine, time will tell one way or the other. Fascists are not the only ones who have used and use CD replicators as tools to get the product out, however that isn't part of what's happening now.

Charlotte OliviaRoberts (Ms)
half and half

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Tim Hague
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:34 PM

Richard, without introducing teaching of traditions within schools, not only ours but the other members of our society, then we are on a hiding to nothing, and that direction has to be instigated from the government as they seem to rule the curriculum with a rod of iron.

BTW I'm not a teacher.., I'm just an engineer who has never been on a course in PC speak!

Tim

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Royston
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 04:54 PM

Fascists are not the only ones who have used and use CD replicators as tools to get the product out, however that isn't part of what's happening now.

Ollie, that is what's happening now and it is the principal reason for FaF, which was founded to say "No!" to the BNP's commercial arm selling CD compilations of folk-artists material without their consent.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 05:02 PM

Fascists are not the only ones who have used and use CD replicators as tools to get the product out.

The name Dave Bulmer comes to mind and as far as I know he's not a member of the BNP

"folk-artists material without their consent"
Steve Knightley has shown what can be done, threaten them with court action if they don't cease and desist, without the help of any organisation other than his own.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
half and half

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 05:17 PM

"it is the principal reason for FaF, which was founded to say "No!" to the BNP's commercial arm selling CD compilations of folk-artists material without their consent."

It is indeed ONE reason. It shares status and importance with the organisation's other aims.

"Steve Knightley has shown what can be done, threaten them with court action if they don't cease and desist, without the help of any organisation other than his own."

Steve did indeed get the BNP to stop playing his song on their website through threatening legal action. However, what Excalibur is doing, in selling folk recordings for which the secondary rights have been sold on, is perfectly legal - that is the problem and the point. FAF is highlighting the BNP's actions, and giving artists the opportunity to publicly distance themselves from the exploitation by the far right of their music.

Judging by the number of artists at summer festivals wearing FAF t-shirts, many are welcoming the opportunity.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 05:25 PM

Maybe he is maybe he isn't, time will tell
FFS, who the hell are you to sit in judgement? Three short weeks has been enough time to tell me that you're a one-trick pony shouting as loudly as you can to prove that you're the most anti-fascist here.
However, if it makes you happy, OK, you win. Congratulations on being the most right-on person on this forum this month. Have a gold star.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: jeddy
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 05:29 PM

as much as i don't think you will all like this i feel i must point out, that people are free to use their own material as they see fit.
if this means singing for the BNP, although why i do not know, we have to accept this and try to talk them round.
the whole point of FaF is to stop the BNP using artists music who have NOT given permission.

welcome tim, i didn't see your' first post, but you will soon see that some people( me included) tend to read stuff with an edge to it where there wasn't any. if i do this to you in future i am sorry in advance.

i seem to have missed alot of guest posts that you are all refering to. i know we are not suppoesed to comment on policy, but as an informal request could we allow guest posts to remain for a while so when we read through the threads we are not so lost? i don't think i am the only one who sits and scratches my head in confusion.( i do hope that isn't nits as i have been around my little niece and nephews)


take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 05:31 PM

There are more important issues at hand than what I think of you and what you think of me, I'd much prefer to deal with them, and not in a moderate way, that's never been my way.

Charlotte Olivia Roberts (Ms)
half and half

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:19 PM

Tim, my first degree was in Engineering. However, having had Shakespeare rammed down my throat at school (prep and public), I have always hated it. Having had some country and Scottish dancing rammed down my throat at prep school, I have always hated it. Having had "divinity" as a subject rammed down my throat at school (prep and public) I have always hated it. Having had compulsory haircuts at school, and having had to toe the line sartorially as a West End or City lawyer for decades, look at me now!

Trust me, if you want people to love their traditions, do not make learning them compulsory at school.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:20 PM

PS Charlie 50/50, does the name change mean that you are now a BNP troll?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:26 PM

oops, that's what comes of having the cat trying to play with the mouse at the same time as me *LOL* Sorry Richard. I'd sooner shoot myself than join the BNP!

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
half and half

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 04:17 AM

Following some recent disagreements about the in/appropriateness of 'small' folk events seen as becoming 'political' by associating themselves with FaF, I thought I'd cut & paste this from the mission statement on the FaF site. It seems clear to me, that the mission statement speaks about the importance of collective ground level support from ordinary folk enthusiasts and small events. This sense of a moderate (no coaches, no eggs, no chanting crowds) but united expression of solidarity with the cause, is one of the things I like most about this campaign. And so am asking in all honesty, with *no* desire to provoke a fight, "how small is too small?"

"Folk Against Fascism isn't a political party or a bureaucratic, top-heavy organisation. It is any and all of us who want to make ourselves aware of the BNP's bigoted view of our history and culture, and who want to do something about it. [..]

The BNP's Activists and Organisers Handbook encourages its members to get involved in the folk scene; Folk Against Fascism aims to make such infiltration impossible, with support coming from all sections of the folk community.

We can be found on the web and at various folk clubs and festivals, and we encourage people to organise and support events in their own area. [..]

We are currently organising a series of large-scale concerts to be held starting next year, but also encourage people to join the group, set up shows, distribute our stickers, badges and T Shirts, or simply pass on information to friends.

If you're a Folk club or organisation, you can affiliate to Folk Against Fascism.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 04:46 AM

Richard's concern notwithstanding, I agree with Tim* that one of the best ways we have of preventing English Folk Arts from being hi-jacked by the BnP is to have a short but sweet module introduced into the primary school curriculum. The key point being that it needs to be done by an incumbent centrist government to stop it becoming an election issue, (which the Far Right could then easily manipulate during the campaign period).

In fact the very first thing I did after the European election was to write to my MP, Fabian Hamilton, suggesting just this.

At the time I was promoting exactly such a scheme to Leeds primary schools, and was confident I'd get a big take-up (so this wasn't about Jobs for Toms). My idea was that it should be introduced nationally - even if only one module in an entire school career. The message would be clear, and it would serve as a reference point in other subjects too.

Incidentally I had been horrified to discover in my research for that project that there IS a small element of 'folk' in the curriculum - under World Music (ok ok -sigh-) but upon examination this turned out to be only about Irish music! (Obviously I love Irish music, and think it absolutely must be heard in English schools - but the key point is that kids need to know what the children were singing and dancing in that very playground 50, 100, 200 years ago if they're to have any chance of putting the Irish, Bengali, Chinese, West Indian, Ukrainian, Younameit traditions into context (there's lots of wonderful non-English music in primary schools and that's brilliant) - never mind the issue of having the hole plugged by thugs).

Fabian agreed entirely, and forwarded my letter to Vernon Coaker the Minister for Schools.

To our disappointment they initially missed the point about the BnP entirely, and wrote back advising that schools were now free to teach English Folk Music if they wished (assuming they can find a space)!

We replied that they'd missed the point, and only this week I got a second reply.

"Your constituent's concern about the BNP and folk music is not a National Curriculum matter. Mr Bliss may also be interested to know that there are safeguards in law to guard against biased or unbalanced teaching. Section 407 of the Education Act 1996 requires school governing bodies, head teachers and local authorities to take all reasonably practical steps to ensure that, where political or controversial issues are brought to pupils' attention, they are offered a balanced presentation of opposing views. If Mr Bliss has concerns about the broader area of "our cultural heritage" these might be raised with the Department of Culture, Media and Sport."

Talk about joined-up government!

I'm still considering my next step.

Tom

*I read all Tim's posts and did not for one minute assume that he was a BNP toll - in fact I was shocked and alarmed when people reacted as they did. May I tactfully suggest again that the best way of dealing with someone you have a hunch is not 'on the level' is to shout at them in total silence.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 04:51 AM

Well Stated Tom !

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: treewind
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 05:03 AM

"the mission statement on the FaF site"
Which web site is that? A Google search for some of that text showed only a "Democratic Gold" blog site, something from archive.org and this thread!

Isn't it about time that www.folkagainstfascism.com got at least some text saying what it's about, even if it's just a copy of the Facebook blurb. Not everybody wants to join a facebook group (I don't). The sites I mentioned above did have some good content - at least the FaF site could link to them? If there's a real problem with keeping a proper web site up to date I might be able to help.

"If you're a Folk club or organisation, you can affiliate to Folk Against Fascism."
Is there some specific procedure for doing this, or is it a matter of simply declaring your affiliation in your publicity material?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 05:32 AM

Anahata: sorry, it's not from the 'official' site - which as you say seems to still be under construction, that's just a cut & paste from the Facebook site.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 06:21 AM

Anahata:

The website is built, and we're currently putting together the content for the pages - the only thing holding us up is a few glitches around online sales. While I realise this isn't the most important dimnension by a long stretch, we wanted to launch the site in its entirety because people have been clamouring for the merch.

Having said that, we've been planning a September launch for the website for some time, and still hope to deliver this.

To answer another question further down the page: no, the site will not have a forum or messageboard.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 06:32 AM

Tom, I had a similar experience when I wrote to my MP, David Davis. I got a reply from Diana Johnson, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Schools, stating much the same thing and adding, "English folk music is mentioned in the Music Study Programme as an example of the kinds of music that students could study.....through Sing Up, the national singing programme funded by the Government, over 300 songs are available in a web-based song bank (www.singup.org) for primary teachers to use. Many of these are traditional English folksongs. Over 70 percent of English primary schools are registered to use the resource."

Again, no mention of the BNP issue.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism launch at Sidmouth
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 01:34 PM

Foe teachers and other interested parties, this should definitely be linked to the FaF website and facebook, if it already hasn't been.
Sing Up

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)