BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)

Subject: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 06:12 AM

As Chief Theresa Spence now enters her 16th day of Indefinite Hunger Strike, in the hope Stephen Harper will *finally* meet with her...and whilst the Idle No More movement continues to grow at an incredible rate, reaching far beyond Canada's borders, there is now a petition to remove Harper from Office. If you'd like to sign it, then share it to others, here it is:


Get Stephen Harper out! - Petition

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 01:57 PM

Doodledepoop!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 02:07 PM

She's Baaaaack!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 02:56 PM

She has every right to be, Greg. This is a very serious problem. I don't like certain things bout the way it's being handled but I ain't opening that can of worms again. I get crapped on by both sides every time I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 02:57 PM

Yup!

Nov. 2012 - CBC report on Harper selling out Canada


Do you guys have ANY idea what's going on? The First Nations of Canada are Rising Up, bringing in thousands, HUNDREDS of thousands, of non-Native folks with them.

The Idle No More Movement is growing on an hourly basis! Check it all out! Harper is on his way out, methinks......especially if Chief Spence dies and she's now in her 15th day of Hunger Strike..

Facebook is buzzing with it all...

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM

On December 4th Canada had MILLIONS of protected Lakes and Rivers, on the 5th, they now have just a few dozen of each...

This man is selling Canada by the pound! He's a sociopathic bastard who does whatever his Sociopathic Corporate Masters tell him too and he doesn't give a toss for any Canadians, nor for Mother Earth!

There are NO borders any longer, for this is now a World Problem, ALL these Oligarch Leaders are the same and it's going to take ALL of us, without borders, to Rise Up TOGETHER to stop them..

The 8th Fire has been LIT!   Come, warm your hands and hearts beside it and keep that Fire BURNING!!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 04:43 PM

Oh! LISTEN to this amazing man!!

Harper, you are a dead duck, for the Non-Native People are rising against you too!

Wow! David Dave Bleakney, of the Canadian Union of Postal Workers

OHH! I have to go and type this speech of his out now and send it out around the world!

C'mon, baby, LIGHT that Fire! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 05:25 PM

FROM DAVE BLEAKNEY, TAKEN FROM THE VIDEO IN THE LINK ABOVE!

Dave has literally just become a 'friend' over on Facebook and I've just put his speech on his page for him..off to post it to Support Chief Raoni now too and send it out to do GREAT THINGS!!

I'm SO choked up over these wonderful words!

"..I just want to say that settler society and all our ancestors, when they came here, they wouldn't have survived without the generosity and grace of the First Peoples that were here. And we signed Treaties and we gave Words that weren't worth the paper they were printed on, and our Silence has been Compliance!
We can say that we didn't have a role in this on-going theft of Land and Culture, but we do. And there are people who kept the fire burning, a candle burning in the dark corners of this world for a long time and that fire is now raging! That Sacred Fire is now raging in the streets, and it's raging in our hearts!   

So, we have a responsibility to recognize these historical wrongs. This isn't just about recognizing some Rights, because those are Natural Rights. Those are Rights that *our* Settler Society has taken away and I don't want to be a part of that anymore. And I invite *every* settler to know and understand that when Chief Spence and The Elders are speaking they've gone beyond just speaking for their nations now, they're speaking for every human being around this planet who wants a different place and knows that the system has failed. We know it in our hearts, we know it in our minds and when a system has failed, that system *needs* to be changed and have a world based on *thousands* of years of knowledge and mutual respect and understanding of how to care for the Earth and how to care for each other.

I no longer want to be a part of that farce, I want to be a part of that Change, and I'll tell you, you know, generations that haven't been born yet, let's hope that they look back at *this* moment and say "When the time came The People rose. They no longer stopped. They went further and they never gave up!" and that the world changed because of what was happening here today and it's happening all across Turtle Island and it's now starting to happen across the Earth!

I want to *thank* those people who led us into this struggle! I want to join them and follow them and say that, you know, don't anymore worry about the bad things and the negative things that are said about people, because these are the flailings of people who are drowning as the water rises around them. They have a life-line, they can grab it if they want, but no longer will those words hurt, no longer will those words sting and no longer will we stand by and let those words be said in our name!   Thank you." - Dave Bleakney

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 06:32 PM

All Hail Saint Liz. The One And Only Advocate For The First Nations All Over The Globe.

Accept No Substitutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 07:18 PM

Greg... yer outta line. Ya got somethin to contribute, positive or negative, get it done. Otherwise, yer just makin yerself look like a stunned troll. BTW... your posts are personal attacks. That is the one no-no here at Mudcat. When they are deleted I hope my are too.

This is a very important issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 09:01 PM

Old tin Lizzie is the one started this stupid thread.

Harper is doing a good job, and will continue as Prime Minister after the next try by lefties in the east to put some other party in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 09:03 PM

Be realistic. IMO, your thread heading is redicilous. Because of that, I suspect most folks will mostly ignore it. If petitions were effective in overturning governments (democratically elected or otherwise), I suspect they would have been strategically used to do so in the past - to aviod significant efforts and costs.

One could agrue that a petition can have some influence on some issues. But, more likely in most cases it is not so. (That is, ruling out the effectiveness of an internet petition on a remote part of a folk music site - distributed mostly to peace-loving older folks living outside the country it refers to).

Regardless of what any one person thinks on any specific issue, nationally or in other countries, this government was democratically elected and is into the first part of a four year majority government.

May I suggest as an alternative - you share your perspectives on specific issues through well-thought out and focused (short-not long) discourse, where others are also presented with an opportunity to present their perspectives?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 09:36 PM

I agree, Ed, but I still think Greg owes and apology or to have his posts struck.

The petition is so poorly worded that I could never sign it. I emailed a chief of one of the Nations here in NB about this stuff weeks ago and heaven't heard back... ? Apparently, there is some "debate" among first nations about all of this??? maybe???

I personally think the bill is terrible. If a pipeline is good, it would make it past existing protection legislation. If not... we gotta have a talk. In the meantime, we gotta TELL Harper we gotta talk and not simply be bent over and fucked up the ass. If yer gonna do it, do it right.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 06:44 AM

"...May I suggest as an alternative - you share your perspectives on specific issues through well-thought out and focused (short-not long) discourse, where others are also presented with an opportunity to present their perspectives?"

And may *I* suggest that you simply stay away from any threads I start or comments I put down, as you think I am so stupid, Ed, thus permitting me to be free of your rude words.

Thank you......Up Yours!.....and now, back to the topic of this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:45 AM

"Harper is doing a good job, and will continue as Prime Minister after the next try by lefties in the east to put some other party in power."

Well, I'm glad you got that straight!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 08:08 AM

"as you think I am so stupid"

I never posted that you are "stupid" (your words), as I do not believe it is so. I offered my advice on the wisdom of your approach and (in good faith) suggested how you could be more effective (and, yes, more interesting), on this (public) thread. I note that I did so in a much less agressive way than some others commenting on similar approaches. (In fact, I pride myself in avoiding 'off topic" personal insults).

In addition, your thread title relates directly to democracy in a nation where I am a citizen (which I detect you are not) - I do take democracy, the will of the people, in my nation seriously.

You are free to take my suggestions, consider them, or just pass them by, unaffected. IMO, wise people consider suggestions and adjust their approach for effectiveness. (I say no more on that).

In conclusion, like others, I will continue to post within the limits of the site rules (and common etiquette). I will read what I wish - and will most likely pass by what I see as mostly bunk or mis-directed.

Quote
""If you cant take the heat - stay out of then kitchen""

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 09:32 AM

Now ... back to the subject of this thread (somewhat relative)

for those that may be concerned

Canadian citizens: Call for an IMMEDIATE No-Confidence vote against Stephen Harp

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 09:51 AM

Related news article:


From Canada's National Post

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 10:54 AM

It IS an important issue, gnu - and the ramifications of it will impact the entire population of - not just the First Nations.

As far as an apology to Saint Liz, just so soon as she apologizes for the mountains of abuse & shit she's heaped on me - and others - over the years, I'll see what I can do.

And no, they're not "personal attacks" - they're attacks on her bullshit, not hersef.

Best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:44 PM

biLL, thanks for that link. I thought I'd signed it a few days back but I must have done something wrong. I definitely signed it today because a post I wrote is showing.

In a way, I think the Harper government would welcome the death of Chief Spence. I've read some pretty vile verbiage to do with her fast. That is shocking--it always is shocking to find out you live in a nation with so much hatred in its soul. Hell, just read the posters who wrote to that National Post article. The nice thing about a free press is that we get to refute that kind of claptrap.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:59 PM

The Omnibus Bill (which ignited the Idle No More protest movement)to which Harper is shoving through to law affects ALL Canadians in that it signifies that all other bills in the future can be put through Parliament without consulting the parties that it affects.

Chief Spence is a Canadian hero

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 01:03 PM

OK, who wants to be a part of getting this wonderful speech to go VIRAL? Let's give Chief Spence and Canada's First Nations IDLE NO MORE movement ALL the Help & Support we can!

New FB photo...

I didn't make this photo, someone else did, but I added Dave's speech to it and the links below. Folks put photos out and forget to fill 'em with information..Got the good folks on Raoni's page sharing it out at the moment, bless 'em...

I'm hoping someone will make an American flag version of this for me, if possible. Isn't the internet WONDERFUL!! There's a man over in the Far East who is a Wizard when it comes to making photos and he does it for no other reason than he wants to help! I LOVE Facebook! I LOVE that I can write to folks, tell them what I see in my head and they make photos to send round the world...It's magic!!

Anyway, Dave's been sent this and he was blown away that I'd typed his words out for him..I left 'Meegwetch' off the end of his speech apparently, but I've put it on now...

I'm buzzing!!

The Grumpy Garooooos in here can Carry on Grumping, for I prefer to get out there and fight for a Better World in my own way!

Share the photo out if you have a FB page...Make a FB page if you haven't, and that's an ORDER, for there's a Revolution Taking Place inside it, being led by the Indigenous Peoples all over the world!

Stop Grumping and Join Them!!!


Ooh, and Bruce, I had a real racist bastard come over to my page earlier. Geez he was so unpleasant about the First Nations peoples...I whacked his bum, I can tell you! Boy, did he pick the WRONG woman to say what he did to!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Dec 12 - 01:43 PM

Yes, even The Academics are coming together! Take a look in here at them queueueueueuing up to leave their names in support of Chief Spence... :0)

FB - Academics in Solidarity with Chief Theresa Spence

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 07:19 AM

Who's Stephen Harper and why should I be interested in getting him out? Is he any worse than David Cameron? Or Gordon Brown before him? Why were there not petitions in Canada to get them out? The English First Nation were rebelling against them but no-one seemed to support us.

Please bear in mind that I have a serious disorder that means I cannot read reams and reams of web nonsense or internet bollocks and tell me why I should care, what actions I should be taking and how it will benefit me in short paragraphs and easy to understand words.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 10:43 AM

Stephen Harper is Canada's Prime Minister and there's no reason for you to be involved in getting him out. People would just write that off to hair envy, no offense.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 10:50 AM

Thanks Bruce - Now I know the who but maybe not the why! How did you guess I may have hair envy anyway? Not all Gnomes are bald you know :-)

But I am...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 11:01 AM

Recent Canada wide poll on the environment.

Environment-Economy (Canada)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 01:32 PM

Dave, just a guess. I'm gettin' thin on the top, too.

Harper just got a bill passed that is not good for Canada's environment. It unprotects many many rivers and infringes on treaty obligations our government has with Indians/Native North Americans/First Nations people. (Part of my family is First Nations, but we refer to ourselves as Indians.)

There was little consultation on Bill C-45, and frankly most thinking Canucks are really pissed off both with aspects of the bill and the way it was done. Before the bill I just wanted him to lose the next election. Now I hope he has a massive coronary. For those of us who love this place Bill C-45 is disgusting. Those who voted for it deserve to rot, and the sooner the better. imo

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 02:26 PM

Dave - I will try to explain briefly without taking sides (but, I caution, it is my interpretation - and others may disagree with it)

In a nutshell- Harper's Conservatives have a majority government (got it a little more ethan a year ago).

This right-leaning government has has chosen to shortcut normal parliamentary process and lump a bunch of bills together (that would have passed anyway, given his majority) under a big budget bill and has has limited debate in the house of Commons. There has been concern about the impact on future parlimentary debate and process.

A couple of these bills has a stated goal of reducting federal red-tape in development projects proposed near many waterways (much of Canada is near a waterway of some type) designed to stimulate economic development. Opponents say these changes will limit public debate and impact the enviroment (there is some differences in opinion on that, as noted in the link below).

According to polls I have seen, IMO, there is support for increased econimic development, and concern for the environment - the degree of sopport for either differs in regions of Canada, as does the Harper government's support base. The opposing political partiies are currently in dissaray (though thet may change).

Canada's aboriginal community (some folks see indian as a deragatory term) is mostly based in rural areas, many in remote locations. Economic conditions in many of these communities has been extremely poor, as has been governance (for a variety of historic reasons). Treaties exist, but interpretations differ and action to define and implement these has been slow, (often involving the courts).

An aboriginal person (who leads one group) has been on a hunger strike, requesting to meet the Prime Minister directly (Nation to Nation) to resolve a host of aboriginal issues, including concerns for reduced environmental protections (as noted in the bills above). This request has not been accepted. I suspect theb aboriginal community strongly and broadly supports her initiative (not sure about the national native group that is elected to generally speak for the many communities).

A host of "anti-Harper government" individals and groups (and those with environmental and other concerns) are standing behind the hunger strike - which I suspect they see as a best opportunity to deter the Harper government from its course (as the majority status makes it complex in parliament) through social medis, petititions etc.

(Added to the debate is environmental-economic development concern on both sides for a couple of large "energy" projects (one is a pipeline to transport "tar sands" oil, that has had significant environmental backlash, in Candada and elsewhere).


So, there are a multitude of issues that are at play behind a woman who is using a hunger strike to try and obtain change to government policies and actions.

Navigable Waters Protection Act -another perspective

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 04:44 PM

"This right-leaning government has has chosen to shortcut normal parliamentary process and lump a bunch of bills together (that would have passed anyway, given his majority) under a big budget bill and has has limited debate in the house of Commons."

Ed nailed it. I'd mention at this point that the National Defense Authorization Act [NDAA] in the USA passed in just such a way and within it was a right for the President to suspend habeas corpus in the USA. This kind of thing is serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 05:12 PM

@Peace ... "This kind of thing is serious." ... it's very serious, if you cherish democracy.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 29 Dec 12 - 09:59 PM

Harper doesn't give a rats ass for democracy or starving Indians either! He has an agenda to persue and petitions and protests are not likely to melt his heart of stone! The authority to govern the country has been hijacked from Parliament by an arsehole with a following of brown nosed MP's. Sadly the people of Canada seen fit to elect him and now are forced to watch in horror until he can be kicked to the shitcan of history. I hate to give anyone the impression that I don't like the bastard but I'm afraid the shoe fits!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 02:48 AM

Thanks Ed, Bruce and all explaining the facts without the histrionics! I understand now - An elected politician is doing stuff that the people who elected him don't like. Seems pretty familiar... :-) Like Sandy mentions above, it seems that this guy does not care about popular opinion. Maybe voting him out at the next election would be a better alternative than wasting time on petitions that are going to be disregarded? Just my 2 pen'urth.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 07:50 AM

And of course, the British Monarchy is involved here too, this being Canada...Do some research, Dave, instead of aiming yet more punches! Read up how Chief Spence also is calling for the Governor-General to meet with her, alongside Harper. You'll find a link to the role of the GG in here:

The Queen and Canada




The 'Idle No More' Movement is growing on an hourly basis. This is becoming not just about Canadian Indigenous issues but about ALL Indigenous issues and all Sociopathic Leaders and Destroyers of Mother Earth. It has become a Movement of people who are coming together to say "ENOUGH!", who are worried sick about Future Generations and what will be left for them to deal with.


You'll also find this story in the UK's Guardian Newspaper and I've no doubt it will soon be in others, for Chief Spence has lit a fire which is spreading around the world...

Harper is a Sociopathic creep who has no concern for anyone other than himself and his cronies..Dilma Rousseff of Brazil, is EXACTLY the same, as are so many 'leaders' around the world.

Oligarchy - The New World Order - NOT for much longer though, for the NEW New Word Order is rising like a Phoenix!

We now have someone working on getting Chief Raoni and Chief Megaron to join up with Idle No More to and start things moving over there..Megaron himself mentioned joining forces with North America on his recent trip to Europe and now the person who organized that trip has seen the massive potential in doing that, we're hoping to get this sorted out soon. He's not long back from that trip around Europe and had been out of the loop, internet-wise, for a couple of weeks, so he knew NOTHING about the Idle No More movement....

When I sent him a wealth of info over last night he was STUNNED!
And then, he was EXCITED! :0)

He's spending today reading up about it all and then he'll be in contact with Raoni and Megaron...

I can't WAIT! Colombia is already rising...and hopefully, soon, the rest of South America will be joining them...

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 07:52 AM

'world' not 'word'
Although a New Word Order could be interesting.. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 09:37 AM

Happy to help out Dave.

Your assessment seems to sum it up. While public relations initiatives surely have an impact (influencing folks one way or the other) - in democracies, political issues are normally solved through the political process within the nation involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM

Do some research, Dave, instead of aiming yet more punches!

Huh? My research was plain for all to see. I explained that I have problems reading reams of inter-bollocks and asked for people to help out. Which they kindly did. Thanks again Ed and all.

And just who is aiming punches at who or what and why?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 11:08 AM

No problem Dave.

As to boxing, my observation is some boxers just throw a lot of punches wildly, hoping they hit something (anything). IMO, that strategy rarely amounts to much, as the boxer runs out of energy.

Best to just keep your distance from "wild punchers" - that is, if you plan to get into a boxing ring. Personally, my boxing days are past :)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 11:27 AM

Very sensible of you, Ed. I have no interest in the boxing ring now either. I did teach Tai Chi for a while and still practice regularly. I find the principle of Ying and Yang helps in all walks of life. The harder people push the more likely they are to find that they are pushing at nothing and end up flat on their face :-)

I was interested in Aikido for a while as well but it got a bit too physical for my old bones. I got to like it when someone explained it was the principle of not being where you were expected to be or doing what you were expected to do. I suppose I have mastered the art at work at least...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 11:40 AM

Dave

In my 20's I took courses in Jiu-Jitsu. The first night of the course I recall trying to hold a board rididly in front of me, as the instructor kicked it. I got whacked in the front of my head. From this, I learned to move the board over my shoulder and head, when it was kicked, directing and reducing the kick energy.

The life lesson I learned from that is best not to resist a force, but it is more effective to try and channel the force where you want it to go. That "bump on the head" has helped me throughout my life and I passed it on to my kids. IMO, it is a good life lesson for anyone:)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 12:00 PM

Whilst you're in here being your usual foul selves, Facebook is lighting up with photos of those supporting Idle No More and Chief Spence..I'm just about to make some photolinks for people in Edinburgh who are out there with their placards, and for the Aborigines over in Australia...and....and...and...

Stop being nasty and get busy HELPING!!
This is about YOUR children and grandchildren's future!

Unless, of course, bitching about me is what you consider to be THE most important thing in your lives, in which case, how deathly sad you are......

Right, I'm off to do some FB work now!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 12:07 PM

Is there an echo in here?

Or, is it just the ghost of Christmas Past?

Either way, it is truly scarrry :)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 01:58 PM

Not quite scary, Ed. Worrying that someone can see nastiness in anything but, to be honest, I am quite used to that. People tend to judge others by their own standards and, while mine do slip occasionally, I know they are intrinsically sound.

Welcome to the club of un-witting stalkers and cyber bullies! Just make sure that if you ever do anything for anyone else, that you let as many people as possible on Facebook know how good you are. It is the new way to heaven apparently:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 02:01 PM

Whilst you're in here being your usual foul selves,....

Take a pill, Liz --- or just feck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Dec 12 - 02:36 PM

Some excellent links about Chief Spence and Idle No More on this page:

Dennis Banks FB page - A Good Day To Die

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 04:40 AM

In the interest of fairness, and bearing in mind that I believe ALL politicians from ALL sides are manipulative sociopaths (Why else would they believe they can run OUR lives?) here is the other side of the story

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Paddy McBollox
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 10:08 AM

My Facebook isn't "Lighting Up" with any of this, neither are those of my FB friends, many of whom are very politically active and aware. No one is even mentioning it. Maybe you have to be inside the bubble to believe you really are saving a country you have never visited and a people you know little about (apart from what other people on Facebook have told you). Still, if Facebook is acting as a kind of Care in the Community now for some of the more zealous posters and their ever-changing lists of essential campaigns, at least it's taken some of the pressure off Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,moonhowler
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 01:17 PM

Chief Spence has brought embarrassment to First Nations people as a result of her corruption and financial mismanagement. She exposed her own Band members to poverty, unsafe conditions, and high risk of harm. Funds were available to prevent this from happening but she allowed these conditions to continue. Her actions are criminal.

She staged a 'hunger strike' to divert attention from her shame. She even managed to get the attention of a few Liberal candidates currying their own publicity. She attempted to skip the channels of communication through extortion. The PM, the Government, and most Canadians are not buying it, and more importantly, intolerant of these manipulative publicity stunts.

This whole exercise is a fraud. It was an organized attempt to draw attention to the idle no more/failed occupy movement and their dog's breakfast of issues, unfocussed and disjointed, and more importantly, manipulated by the NDP behind the scenes to incite social unrest to make the Government less popular. Chief Spence is the poster child of this disorganized conspiracy.

Chief Spence should apologize to her Band members, and then to Canadians, for attempting to capitalize on the misfortune she created. She should be facing criminal charges for what she has done.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 01:45 PM

What a nice name...and thought ..."Idle No More" ... sounds like they are going to get a job and get off the govt. dole.

Theresa Spence looks more like a well feed porcine Budda than a starving Gahdi.

I agree with the accurate accessment that heads of government should never bend to the whims of hunger strikers or terrorists.


She should be healthier after shedding the blubber of winter.

There is something fishy going on there. She still has her double chin. That must be some nice rich "fish broth" she is "fasting" on.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

"On too many First Nations, sexual abuse, profound dysfunction and physical violence are the stuff of daily life." ( Allison Dempster/CBC News/ The Attawapiskat reserve. )

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 31 Dec 12 - 02:29 PM

"It was an organized attempt to draw attention to the idle no more/failed occupy movement and their dog's breakfast of issues, unfocussed and disjointed, and more importantly, manipulated by the NDP behind the scenes to incite social unrest to make the Government less popular"

Hell hath no fury like a Conservative scorned. As for NDP manipulation, fawk, get a life. They couldn't organize a one-car funeral, and that's the Party I support. If you have specific charges to bring against Chief Spence, say what they are, sign the accusations and press forth. What you wrote is not the stupidest thing I've ever seen on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 10:17 AM

Interesting....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 05:38 PM

"The Iroquois Confederacy says the federal Conservative government is planning to end Canada's obligations to Indigenous peoples and terminate their distinct status in the country.

Haudenosaunee Grand Council, which represents the still existing Iroquois political structure that predates contact with Europeans, said in a statement that the Stephen Harper government aims to destroy "any semblance of nation-to-nation relationships."

The confederacy said it would also not recognize Bill C-45, the omnibus budget bill the included changes to the Indian Act and withdrew federal oversight over the majority of waterways across the country................."

Iroquois Confederacy says Harper government seeking to 'destroy our collective sovereignty

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 05:47 PM

>>>Stephen Harper: telephone number in Ottawa is 613-992-4211, but given he is in Calgary you may also want to try his constituency office at 403-253-7990 (the message says the office is closed, but you can still leave a voicemail CALL HARPER AT 1 OF THESE #<<<<


I rang both numbers earlier this evening, left two messages..managed NOT to cry this time, but ranted and raged instead...

Every bit helps, so if you're reading this, why not phone too...?

Be Idle No More!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 06:00 PM

If we phone, do we have to cry? Or should we just rant and rave and otherwise act the idiot?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 06:04 PM

Well, I know it's hard for you NOT to act the idiot, Greg, but hey, try as hard as you can just to rant and rage...and if NOT acting the idiot for once causes the tears to come, just make sure you keep the phone a little further from your mouth...perhaps placing it up your arse until the tears have stopped, although I do appreciate this may cause MORE tears for a while..

Maybe you should just go shopping instead....

Thank you.....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 06:42 PM

I'm sure Mr. Harper was duly impressed by your toddler-style tantrum on the phone, Liz. Keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 11:43 PM

Where in the F...n ....H---l ya been the last 48 hours?

Your leader could have faminesd...while you were swilling egg nog.

Your tribe has been proved a farce....and no one gave "a rat's ass in fart hell."

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

When do YOU believe the blights of fish famine will remove her double chin?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 01:45 AM

Article worth reading unless you have preconceived notions about Indians.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 04:58 AM

I must say that I am far more intrigued by the plight of Chief Spence now that I notice that she is on Indefinite Hunger Strike. I wonder how that works? Do they keep bringing you back to life after you have died? Or does it mean that the hunger strike is not actualy life threatening? Maybe that could answer your questions, Garg.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 10:50 AM

Dave, I realize as you mentioned earlier that long treatises are not appealing to you. In few words, the link I gave explains that the 90 million figure that gets tossed around is inaccurate and it also points out that Chief Spence's salary is approximately $71,000/year.

From the sounds of things on this thread many hope that Chief Spence will die and if she doesn't she's a bad person for staying alive. There seems to be a "hurry up and die because you're fucking with my TV time" tone and it's not very nice--that remark is not directed at you.

Isolated communities are expensive in terms of education, food, clothing, electricity, medical care and housing. The price of most things doubles because transportation is so costly.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 11:10 AM

Funnily enough, Bruce, I was going to comment that the link you sent was about the best I have seen in any of these debates. Factual, to the point and interesting. The only thing I was unsure about was the relevence between this and getting Harper 'out'. But, putting 2 and 2 togetehr and, hopefuly, getting 4 you are actualy refering to the, to my mind, irrational slagging off of Chief Spence.

I hope you don't think that my comment was having a go at her. I do believe she is a politician when all said and done and I would not trust her with the fluff from my belly-button but no-one deserves to die for a political stance. My point was that the thread opened with the statement that it was an 'indefinate' hunger strike. Something which is impossible and reporting it as such only makes it look like the poster does not know what they are talking about.

BTW - I think if you reveiw some of my past political posts you will see I am of the opinion that there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 11:35 AM

Dave, please believe me--that post wasn't aimed at you. And thanks for having read the article. The misrepresentation of Indian peoples in Canada has been long-standing. Justifiably they are upset and basically fed up.

I agree that Chief Spence is a politician--hell, most chiefs in Canada are elected. (The only Chief for Life I know of is in Alberta but there may be others.) She has to be political. That said, Ottawa is very screwed up when it comes to Indians. Bill C-45 is an outrage in many ways. I think Chief Spence moved and spoke too quickly. The racism in this country towards Indians is palpable and very ugly. With no offence meant, Europeans have had a strange view influenced by the Anglican and Catholic churches. I understand that Indians are big business in Germany and more a curiosity to most others, all the way from "they are nothing but savages to what a noble people they are." They're just people, period, some good and some bad in about the same proportions one might find in any other population.

Keep well.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 11:42 AM

Dave, not knowing what she's talking about has never got in Liz's way before, and isn't likely to in future.

That, however, is no reflection on the serious issues being discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 01:25 PM

No probs, Bruce. Even if I thought it was aimed at me, which I didn't, it was at least phrased in a sensible manner. The article did not surprise me in the slightest. As long as governments have given out money to people, others have said that it is, has been or will be misused. There must be hundreds of thousands of such accusations fly around the world and, in this digital age, it is getting worse.

What does surprise me is the gullibilty of people who believe such accusations and reports are 100% true. On ALL sides. There are some wonderful Canadians and some pretty evil ones. There are those of the indiginous people who are honest and virtous, just are there are ones who are manipulative, lying bastards. There is an equal ammount on both sides but I do hope I am right whan I say the good outweigh the bad in all cases. Unfortunately it seems to be the bad that tend toward rule. It seems to be in their character.

Let us, however never believe them when thay say that one nation is any better than another. That all Germans eat babies. That all Indians scalp men and rape women. Or that all Canadian Conservatives are heartless unfeeling plunderers.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 05:47 PM

Good article, 9. Thanks.

DtG... "Or that all Canadian Conservatives are heartless unfeeling plunderers." Well, it only really takes one... with good hair.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 06:33 PM

What I see are many different people involved with a spectrum of complaints/dislikes. IMO, to obtain broad support-success in such initiatives it is best to keep the cause-messages easy to understand, and unwise to lump many related and some unrelated complex issues into one initiative, as this movement does.


Additionally, I am not even sure if the folks involved in the various elements of the initiatives have considered exactly how success would be determined?

Regardless, IMO, it is a downhill battle when ultimations are issued. Few governments react positively (especially in the short-term) under such situations. I suspect doing so undermines their effectiveness to govern - and opens the door to similar actions by other (often some less popular) movements.

Lets agree (for the sake or discussion) that Aboriginal Canadians have been treated poorly and need a better deal. Outside of prejudices, that issue is easy to understand by the population and has a possibility of some form of discussion that would lead to successful resolution (these won't be resolved overnight). I suspect that making a case that additional consultations on impacts to the native community is needed is also one that may be seen as reasonable.

However, it is not reasonable to add to this a challenge that a democratically elected majority government cannot enact federal bills-actions that it sees fit, and good of Canada and generally Canadians, (like it-them and the process or not, it does fall within the parliamentary rules of the Canadian democracy).

I understand that some Canadian folks on here do not personally like this government and some of the legislation involved in this bill - that is their right (they have a chance to change the government in three years or so). But, this alone should not cloud reason. If the causes at hand were not seen as popular (to them), would the approach being used (by others, seen as much less deserving) seem just as alluring?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 07:00 PM

I think, as I said, Chief Spence has made a mistake. I also think that omnibus bills are not a democratic way to do things, especially in OUR democracy.

That aside, for Indian people, talk has done nothing. So asking people who have waited for over 125 years to have patience because maybe the next election will change something when the last forty-one haven't just doesn't cut it, imo.

I agree that Idle No More is disorganized, but disorganized or not it helps unite the people involved even if it does nothing to rectify the ostensible reasons for its existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 07:23 PM

999

Note that is do not challenge the cause of the native movement in any way (lets get that out of the way) - but I do challenge the wisdom of lumping so many things together and elements of the approach (for example supporting the Spense action).

While many forms of action may unite groups, it does not necessarily gain success (if the definition of success and progress is clear within the group). There have been cases where unwise and unstrategic actions do more harm for unity over the long term.

Regardless of your personal views on the democratic pocess, again, I also feel it is a strategic mistake for the aboriginal community to challenge the right of a democratically elected majority government to pass all that is in these bills. IMO, it would be much wiser to focus on matters directly related to plight of the native community within Canada, not what one personally sees as democratic process or not. IMO, that element (which I see as political) is not winable through this initiative at this time.


Maybe I will be proven wrong. That is just my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 07:42 PM

Thanks for that link, Bruce...I've just put it on the page of a british journalist who's trying to stir up racial hatred against Chief Spence. He should, hopefully, shortly start to choke on his putrid words, as I hope, will anyone else who says such things about her....

45,00+ on the Idle No More page now...growing by the hour..

I've just had some great photos made for me, flags of Brazil, Australia and America with the 3 feathers across them...been loading them up with links and info on Idle No More and Indigenous Issues happening in each respective country..Canadian flag coming over to me tomorrow..

SO many Idle No More 'group' pages out there in Facebook now too, all arranging powwows and meetings..It's all a-buzz in there...great to watch! And what's even more lovely to watch is the Pride starting to grow now, that Connection starting to happen, and with that is coming a confidence which is growing each and every day!

WONDERFUL to see!

Bet the FBI are shit-scared! Ha!!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 08:07 PM

Thank you, Ed. I do know where you're coming from. And I agree enough that while I think you're wrong, I also think you're right about it being unwise to hold a gun to the head of someone who owns the best snipers in the business.

Liz, the FBI hasn't been scared shitless for decades. It's an organization, and organizations don't scare. Maybe three or four individuals in it are checking retirement options when this all goes wrong but I doubt it's more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 08:09 PM

Good points, all round.

I was taken aback at the lack of support at the protest I attended in Moncton recently but it was was an odd day to hold it... in the middle of the holidays and shopping days? Whatever.

What really pisses me off is that the feds are fucking over EVERYone to get this pipeline built and nobody can get organized to hold them responsible to do it right. Fact is, it's gonna get built BUT all we, natives and pale, can do now is try to get it done right. If ANYone thinks the Irvings are gonna say 'nevermind', they are mindless. It WILL get built... just ask the Chinese. They got pretty good hair too. And THEY got cash!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 08:41 PM

45,00+ (I assume 45,000+?) on the Idle no More pages???

Shakira 58,000,000 +

Coca Cola 56,000.000 +

South Park (Lets move it to Canada eh?) 43,000,000 (Nearly 1000 times more than idle no more if your maths ain't up to much.)

Mr Bean 33,000,000 +

The Beatles (Not been around since 1970 but what the heck) 30,000,000

Patrick Star (Yes, from Sponge Bob Square Pants) 19,000,000 +

Need I go on and what is the point?

Facebook is NONSENSE. It is no indication whatsoever of the support for important issues. Facebook is run by the media moguls and sanctioned by government. It could not survive otherwise. It is often hijacked by irresponsible loonies but that is exactly what it is intended for. While the loonies are active of Facebook, they are doing nothing useful.

How much support and activity does Al Qaeda have on facebook? The Taliban? Any other serious anti-western organization? Very little indeed. Not only is it the tool of the ruling media but it is fast becoming the Marxist opium of the people.

Just think about it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 08:24 AM

OK, Bruce...FBI agents...but I still think they're working overtime at present to try to stay in control...and Ed Woods and Joe Trimbach (and son) are out there on the internet filling it with lies and nastiness about Leonard Peltier, they have many aliases on Youtube and Facebook, plus many sites of their own...Little Shit Stirrers! They're linked up with Paul Demain (spit!) who seems to have cast a spell over Denise, for wherever Paul goes, Denise follows...(Anni Mae's daughter, that is)

Hawaii is joining in now!!

Got myself an Hawaiian flag to sort out later this evening! :0)

I never knew, until this morning, the the British flag is in the left hand corner of the Hawaiian state flag. Dates back to the 1800s, apparently, allegedly due to friendship between the countries (hmmmmm...)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 08:26 AM

Dave, you have NO idea of the power of FB when it's used by the right people in the right way...

Get over it!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 09:04 AM

And Liz, of course is the right person using the techno-addicted international narcissist site (Mommy! Mommy! Look at Meeee!!!) the right way.

Bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 11:25 AM

Dave, you have NO idea of the power of FB when it's used by the right people in the right way...

OK - Educate me. Give one major piece of any governments policy that has changed purely due to Facebook. I am not talking just public opinion here either - That existed before Facebook and will last a long time after. I am talking about Facebook being a major political player and going head to head with major policies.

I don't expect one to be pulled out of a hat. I expect it will take you some time and research. Let me know how long it will take you to -

1. Come up with the policy that was changed
2. The Facebook page that changed it and, most importantly,
3. Proof that it was Facebook that achieved it.

Take as long as you like. Just let us know what the deadline is so we know when to check back

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 01:40 PM

Harper FINALLY agrees to meet First Nations Chiefs!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 01:53 PM

"It Is Not The Indians You Should Be Afraid Of' - Facebook photo

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 02:39 PM

So, those are both examples of the power of Facebook are they? No Kudos to Spence for her hunger strike? Not even sure what that second link is about! What is it?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 08:05 AM

Nothing yet then? Can we have an estimate at least please?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 09:55 AM

I reckon the hole in the ground is a tar sand mine. Google images has many similar pictures.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:18 AM

I've only dipped into this thread and haven't really got anything to say on either Harper or Spense, but as to the current thread drift, considering the very significant and much discussed impact that social media (including networking sites such as Facebook and Twitter) have had on the face of international politics in recent times, I'm quite surprised at the posts here dismissing them as a tool for change! Plenty of serious articles analysing their role in modern politics out there for those interested in such subjects.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:21 AM

No offense, but it's Spence.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:27 AM

Yes Guest, "Spence" it is - I just spotted it a second after I posted! No edit function..

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:34 AM

""I'm quite surprised at the posts here dismissing them as a tool for change""


I am not sure that folks on here have in fact done that, at lease in the way you seem to describe. I suspect it was more to do with this specific situation, and wild claims that seem to have been made that do not seem to be backed up in any logical type of evidence (considering other significant factors are also in play).


Social media is surely a growing factor in information sharing. But,unfortunately reliable techniques to measure the effectiveness of this avenue seem in many cases to be deficient, compared to many other traditional information sharing avenues. I suspect this will evolve, but, IMO, it is not there yet in mostv cases.


I often think of how one could measure the effectiveness of dumping leaflets out of airplanes when I consider many of the wild (and unmeasured) claims as to the effectiveness of some social media initiatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:46 AM

Very good post Ed T. ... I totally agree ... I think people seem to over estimate the influence social media has... it is good for spreading knowledge, but beyond that it does not provide a spark to get the engine going, so to speak ... but, as you say it may evolve.

The corporate/military oligarchy is firmly dug in protecting the power they have ... they know change is going to come, and it has to come but they are hanging on very tightly to what they have.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 12:29 PM

I am often involved in leading event marking initiatives. Last fall I included facebook and Twitter messaging in promoting a local event.

My analysis, (from onsite surveys) was that the impact of twitter was marginal. We asked staff to list the event on their facebook account, and to also encourage family, friends and neighbours to also do so. The event covered a few days, and we also asked attendees (who liked it) to share the information on their facebook accounts.

The analysis was that the facebook initiative to be worthwhile, as it complemented other marketing initiatives, and reached some segments (youth) that may have been difficult to reach through traditional routes (newspapers, radio, TV, internet posters, and internet and community bulletin boards).

However, this was a local initiative and involved targeted facebook use. If I found that 1 million people in China read about it on social media, it would not have helped much in getting folks to attend our event .

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 07:23 PM

I mentioned on another thread that I work for a major supermarket chain. Oddly enough the only one, as yet, not to offer an online service but VERY aware of the internet and it's effects. Because of this we propose to enter the online world in a way that will benefit everyone concerned and we have learned considerably from others mistakes.

I am a computer specialist and, as all such in this market sector, am acutely aware of the role of social media and am actively involved in 'spreading our message' through this media. I can assure anyone out there that the sway held in this whole sector is, as yet, tiny. We are very aware it will grow, but also know that it will grow in the way dictated by, not public opinion, but commercial demands. It is just the way of the world.

Anyway, presumably by the lack of response about what major policies Facebook has changed can we assume that the claim about the power of Facebook was grossly overstated?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 08:05 PM

The Hair just approved the sale of assault weapons by Canucks to Columbia... I assume that applies to all other countries too? Free trade is cool, eh? Even if he signed the deal without the approval of Parliament? We get fresh fruit from them and they get death from us. Great deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:22 AM

YEAH!! :0)

"..Thank you to all who are making this necessity, this dream...a REALITY!..." - Buffy Saint-Marie

Buffy Saint-Marie delivering a message to the Idle No More Movement and Chief Spence

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:33 AM

For the Non-Believers in here who are talking out of their backsides most of the time, ask TESCO why they pulled out of the government's 'Pay People NOTHING to Work For You' scheme a few months back...You'll find it was because of what happened on Facebook one evening, when the word was spread about these Corporate Feckers and what they were doing. Within HOURS their page was covered in THOUSANDS of comments calling for the downfall of their business, people saying they'd NEVER shop there again etc...They could NOT remove the comments fast enough, nor ban people quick enough (myself included). The NEXT DAY they announced they were pulling out of this scheme and Sainsburys also announced they would not be a part of it.

This also took place on Twitter...and if you DON'T believe me, then you can read all about it HERE!

Now, either start your own thread on the power, or lack of, if that's what you TRULY believe, OR, get off my back, because whether you like it or not, I KNOW how to use Facebook FAR BETTER than you!

And I can ASSURE you that the Idle No More movement and the word about Chief Spence has grown and GROWN ****BECAUSE**** of Twitter and Facebook!!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:24 AM

Rail lines blockaded in Kent County, NB, CAN


Aboriginal protesters close off lines as part of Idle No More movement

BY GAIL HARDING

TIMES & TRANSCRIPT STAFF (2013.01.06)

ADAMSVILLE - Native flags, colourful signs and the sounds of drums were on dis­play yesterday along Route 126 in Adamsville.

Members of the Elsipogtog First Nation set up a blockade yesterday in this Kent County community of the Canadian National rail line that links Moncton to Miramichi and northern New Brunswick. The blockade was part of the Idle No More protests being held across Canada. The actions are against the federal government's recently passed Bill C-45.

The blockade ended last night at 7 p.m. A number of attempts were made to contact protest organizers to determine if they would be returning to the site this morning to continue the protest.

The protest was organized by the Sikniktuk Mi'kmaq Rights Coalition based in Elsipogtog. This was the second protest they have held as part of the Idle No More movement. The first protest was a traffic slowdown on Highway 11 near Kouchibouguac days before Christmas.

John Levi was one of about 15 protesters standing in the light snowfall and cold yesterday afternoon.

See PROTESTERS , A10



Article Continued Below

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See PROTESTERS on Page A10



Protesters blockade CN Rail line between Moncton and northern N.B.

Continued From A1

Levi said the protest was being held in support of Theresa Spence, chief of Attawapiskat First Nation in northern Ontario, who has been on a hunger strike since mid-December. Spence has been asking to meet with Prime Minister Stephen Harper to discuss First Nations treaty rights. It was announced yesterday the two are scheduled to meet in a week, on Jan. 11.

'We are waiting for Harper to meet with Theresa Spence,' Levi said. 'And we are tired of sitting … doing nothing.' As others cut branches and wood for a small fire to keep war m, Levi spoke about his community's involvement in the protests.

'We are staying here for four days, 24 hours,' he said yesterday afternoon. 'There will be someone here at all times.' Despite saying they would remain at the site for four days, the protesters left early yesterday evening.

CN spokesman Jim Feeny said last night that CN Rail engineers inspected the track where the blockade occurred. Once it was confir med safe, 'we began the process of moving normal passenger and freight traffic.' The westbound Via Rail passenger train headed to northern New Brunswick passed through the area shortly after 8 p.m.

Feeny said it is not known if the protesters will return to the site to continue the blockade today.

The protesters said earlier yesterday they would allow the Via Rail passenger train to go through. It was expected to travel on the Newcastle Junction line early yesterday evening on its way to Miramichi.

Instead of allowing the train to go through, Via Rail had planned to put passengers from the fully booked train on charter buses and send them to Miramichi.

When the protestors heard what Via Rail was doing, they pointed out they were still causing an inconven ience to the rail line.

'The only train we are stopping is the CN cargo train,' said Levi.

When asked how they would prevent the train from going through, Levi said he would put his truck across the tracks if he had to.

'If they try to force their way through then we will block the Via one also.' But the likelihood the protesters would see any trains this weekend is slim. Feeny did confir m the company had shut down that section of the line yesterday afternoon, advising Via Rail of the closure.

Feeny said CN will monitor the situation if the blockade continued over the weekend.

'We are presently evaluating the situation.' District 5 RCMP and CN Rail police are monitoring the situation.

The native protesters say they picked the spot because it is traditional native land and Adamsville was the site of a trading post.

'My great-grandfather was here in 1901,' said Levi.

As protesters of all ages came and went from the blockade, some motorists honked in support of those waving signs. As they walked back and forth to stay warm, Noel Augustine and Cathy Levi spoke about their community's support for the Idle No More protests and the support for Spence. Six of their community members are in Ottawa on Victoria Island with Spence. One man, Joseph Jean Sock, joined Spence on her hunger strike on Dec. 18. Cathy Levi described the man as a warrior, a sun dancer who was becoming weaker daily.

The community has raised funds to help with travel costs for those staying in Ottawa.

'We needed to help them (with) food and clothing and to get them back and forth.' Both said they are very committed to the Idle No More movement and the fight against Bill C-45.

'At the end of the day you can't drink your dollar. We still need our water,' said Augustine.

RON WARD/TIMES & TRANSCRIPT

It was not known last night if the blockade will resume today.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:27 AM

I'll repeat my request. In your own words, Liz, you will not shut me up :-) From my post 4 Jan 11:25 am -

OK - Educate me. Give one major piece of any governments policy that has changed purely due to Facebook. I am not talking just public opinion here either

The only 'proof' offered so far is that Tesco (a major piece of Government policy?) changed it's mind due to public opinion on twitter. (Facebook? Not just public opinion?)

I don't think that is a very well conceived argument I'm afraid. Which I know you will not care about but I think I can be satisfied knowing that, like most of your spurious claims, this one can be dismissed as well.

Now, I will agree wholeheartedly that the supporters of the Idle No More movement have increased due to Facebook and Twitter. Just as the followers of the other pages I quoted earlier have increased. It is inevitable that social media will attract people to popular opinion. It is NOT the other way round I'm afraid. It is easy to do. It costs nothing and it gives people that warm fuzzy feeling that they are helping while all the while nothing gets done. Social media does not create popular opinion; it just reflects it.

It also gets abused by some extremist organisations who are, sadly, popular in certain quarters. They can use it to mimic people as well you know. Have you never noticed that, Liz? Was it not you who ranted and raved against Fakebook when there were numerous pages purporting to be yours?

Now, if you want me to leave your thread I suggest that you start a Facebook page about it. Or contact Max, or Joe or another Mod. Because while nonsense is being talked and sold to us as truth I will not sit idly by and let the manipulators of fact get away with it. Put that in in your peace-pipe and smoke it :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:08 AM

There are people who post most often from behind and there are people who choose to post gas ... and there are the very few who are good at both :)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:41 AM

Dave and Ed, why don't you go and start your own thread on Facebook's importance to the world. This is about Idle NO More, Chief Spence and a Fuckwit named Harper, who I'm seriously starting to think you two may well be related to! You can also nitpick about me as much as you want in there. This is a polite way of saying, For Fuck's Sake Fuck Off..Thank you...


Meanwhile, back at the origins of this thread, here is a Wonderful video of the Idle No More movement! This is a HUMAN RIVER OF DETERMINATION! :0)

Idle No More on the Cornwall Akwesasne International Bridge!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 10:02 AM

And, then of course we can forgive rude poster-folks, with poor posting attitudes towards fellow 'caters - those who cant understand why others may just see things differently then them.

Why not treat other posters - those with different perspectives than you with respect Liz - not just aboriginal peoples in countries where you do not reside? Agressive and one sided discussions rarely convert anyone in the vast world.

Respect is most often earned and kindness and ubnderstanding in posting is most often reflected back.

Sometimes enemies are merely a figment in one's own mind.

:))

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 10:12 AM

I have some friends who live in Akwesasne and they are often hassled for no good reason when they cross the border--usually by the Americans. I am happy to see Indian people getting POed at last and changing silent resentment into real-life action. It took Chief Spence to get it happening, but at last it is. These actions will inconvenience some people, that's for sure. But I have to ask, "So what?" So few ever gave a damn about Indians anyway. IMO, it's time.

Liz, one lesson I learned way back: do NOT respond to jibes. Let people say what they want because they will anyway.

Facebook has helped bring this situation together, for sure, but usually that site is only good for people with a twenty-second attention span. The real business gets done with e-mails and telephone calls. Facebook has been and continues to be fucked up in regards to security and the disdain with which it treats members. Don't laud its virtues. It has few, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 10:41 AM

999 - thanks for trying to bring back and civility into the discussion. Silencing people does nothing to convert them.

There is indeed prejudice an Canada and the USA, as with elsewhere, towards aboriginal peoples. However, hopefully we live in a society where these prejudices can be minimized and gradually eliminated, like they have been in many cases.

Aboriginal issues need to be brought to the forefront of issues in these countries,that for the most-part are wealthy societies. It is the only way to move forward, end poverty and to restore the Aboriginal peoples to ther rightful place in these societies and lands.

My recollection is that most causes of this nature benefit from actions that draw attention to the plight of the people involved and it is rare that someone is not inconvenienced in one way or another.
It is rare that change comes from good wishes alone.

There are always extremists involved in in all movements (on both sides), but normally the majority of people fall near the middle on most issues. Fear of actions by the extremists often stimulate those in the middle to discussion to resolve issues. Hopefully, reasonable folks on both sides are prepared to meet this challenge and opportunity and discussions lead towards measures to resolve many of these issues. They likely will not be resolved overnight - but, the route to progress must be made clear to all parties involved - some of these issues have been around for far too long.

(side message to Liz:I have been a promoter of Canadian Aboriginal rights on here for some time (IMO, my posting record would prove that). However, that does not mean I will "be silenced" by you when I disagree with claims made by anyone on current approaches to resolve some of the associated issues, which I feel are "out of whack". Anyone can be right or wrong-open and respectful discussion will lead more toward logic than rude posts or attempts by anyone to silence other posters. So, talk to the hand).

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 11:26 AM

And I can ASSURE you that the Idle No More movement and the word about Chief Spence has grown and GROWN ****BECAUSE**** of Twitter and Facebook!!

Well, if Saint Liz the Oracle can ASSURE us, that settles it. It MUST be true!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 12:29 PM

It sort of goes like this, Liz. Someone says something which someone else disagrees with. That first person says, OK, I accept that there are alternate viewpoints but I still believe that I am right. They then go on to re-visit their case, providing proof or evidence of what they feel that their opinion is more valid than the second persons. The second person than says. Hmmm. Maybe you have something and then either modifies or strengthens their viewpoint with evidence of their own. And so it goes unto all avenues have been explored and all is either in agreement or a respectful disagreement is agreed. At least that is what happens with grown up people in what we term our society.

Now, lets look at the alternative. Liz screams that the world is wrong and everyone can fuck off apart from those who agree with her. Someone else, Ed and I at the moment but it could be Folkiedave or Greg F or any one of dozens of others that say, Steady on Liz. We can see what you are on about but we can't agree with the methods.. Surely all that passion and energy can be better utilised to really help the cause. At which point Liz goes ballistic.... You scum of of the earth are nothing but bullies and stalkers. You have no souls you want nothing but to belittle the entire female of the species. Why don't you go back to singing your fucking boring folk songs with your fingers up your arse and leave real people like me alone. Just fuck off. Fuck off and fuck off and understand that I have every rigth to fucking swear, try to fucking belittle you and fucking browbeat everyone to my point of view without sad little fuckers who know fuck all trying to point out the truth.

I do my best to avoid personal attacks but, sorry mod team, there is only so much crap I will take. Now, Liz, if you would only keep your word from umpteen other threads and ignore me without responding to my posts I would be more than happy. Thanks in advance.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 12:37 PM

"Why not treat other posters - those with different perspectives than you with respect Liz"

Firstly, do NOT call me Liz. Only Bruce has my blessing to do that. Anyone else who does that after I've asked them not to I consider to be smellier than a pile of dog poo...

Secondly, Physician Ed, Heal Thyself.


Bruce, trust me on this one...if you know the right way to use Facebook for the Good, you can get many things rolling. If you connect with like-minded people/groups/movements, then you have a VAST conversation going on. There are many specific group pages now in FB where people invite others they know will be prepared to help and spread the word about certain things. From these pages MUCH is passed around the world.

Sadly, a great many people only use it to discuss what they had for tea last night, and that's fine, I guess, for each to his own, etc...but there's a great deal of wonderful things going on in there now..

As to the jibes, well, I'm being far better than I used to be about biting back, but sometimes, they just need a really good verbal kick up the backside.. ;0) The thing that REALLY gets to me though, is that if *I* were behaving in such a manner in one of *their* threads, they'd be shouting to the rafters about it, messaging all the mods etc...Never could stand Hypocrites and these fellas I put into that category....

They're like Squawking Parrots...and of course, now they'll all be Sqauwking shortly "Liz, Liz...!" just like the jumped-up piles of steaming dog poo which they conjour up in my picture-filled mind.....

Sorry to be unladylike, but I don't give this out in the first instance, I merely respond to some of it. Ed came into this thread purely to have a go at me, as have others, who have NO interest IN this thread at all....Then....*I* end up being called a 'troll' by one of Mudcat's Mods. Cool, huh?

Liz :0) x

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 12:40 PM

See? Oh my, one of them timed his post PERFECTLY to coincide with what I've just written.. Well done, Squawker!

And now, BACK to Idle No More, Chief Spence and Stephen Harper....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 12:43 PM

Dave, I'd be willing to be the only reason you're posting in this thread is because Lizzie started it.

Has someone already mention Harper has agreed to meet with Chiefs on Friday, and Chief Spence is staying on her hunger strike because... well, it might happen, and it might not.

This has actually been reported on in the US. Marginally.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 12:54 PM

Liz kinda-cornish,

Open,and all sided discussion on all perspectives on a thread topic s is allowed on all BS threads (if you can understand what all sides means), as it leads to fruitful discussions and the airing of a variety of opinions/experiences.

Regardless who opens the threads, the topics do not belong to you (ebven though you post as if you have some type of BS possession). This differs a lot from your facebook account where you can stop discussions that do not agree with your one perspective.

Have you ever noticed that most of your personal insults involve backsides, (and sometimes objects). While this mayb be a fixation of yours, I suggest you should broaden your horizons, and respect that otherts are not as fixated as you are.

RESPECT, Liz

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 01:57 PM

Liz, thank you, but listen up gal. These people agree with where you're coming from. That is, they basically agree with you. Although they may not have your fervency about the issue, let's look at facts.

Greg is a good man. He spent time in the American west on a Sioux reserve where he was an activist.

Ed is a Maritimer who really does know the plight of Indians and he addresses that in almost all his posts.

Dave has been the epitome of reasonableness when he gets the chance. I think he's from England, and if so, for a Brit he's pretty darned cool, no offense to either of you.

In the words of who(m)ever, "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

The issue is not one of personalities; it is one of indigenous peoples having a helluva time with their governments. In my own family I have four nephews. They all have the same mother (my sister) and father. Nephews 1, 3 and 4 have treaty rights. Nephew 2 does not. We have written to the band, the chief, our respective members of parliament, the department of Indian Affairs, INAC and half the rest of the alphabet plus the UN, the prime minister (at least three) and maybe Amnesty International. So, I have three nephews with the last name of Day and one with the last name of Murdoch. I do not need any White telling me it's fucked up. I KNOW that.

We have to accept our friends as they are, and even though they may disagree with particular points we feel important, they will back us when the shit hits the fan. I disagree with the people I've mentioned on several things, as do they with me, but they are good people finding their ways too, as am I on odd numbered days.

So, I ask that y'all stop fighting with each other and find some common ground. Fuck Facebook. It don't mean shit. What means something is that for once Indians are getting organized. Despite the wrongs that have occurred, those of us who are Indian or those of us who know the cultures intimately also know that we cannot do it on our own. When all the White folks argue about 'us', we inevitably lose. So, in a word, kiss and make up. Or not. But at least make up. Or at the very least, stop arguing about us.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:03 PM

Jeri,

Prime Minister Harper has agreed to meet with Chief Spence in five days. However, Indians have been lied to before once or twice, so the protests will continue until such time as they are halted. They mean no offense, but in the parlance, "We heard that one before."

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:16 PM

Yeah, that was pretty much what I was trying to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:22 PM

Dave, I'd be willing to be the only reason you're posting in this thread is because Lizzie started it.

Guess you mean bet rather than be, Jeri. But if you were were willing to 'be the only reason' my whole life would be fulfilled :-)

Seriously though, if you do mean bet, you would loose. I would argue against anyone who come out with this type of hysterical nonsense regardless of the seriousness of the issue. In fact, the more serious the issue, the more important it is to address it correctly. The fact that I seem to argue against Liz more than others is simply indicative of the fact that that she does raise serious issues, but in such a way that makes a complete mockery of them. Look back through my posts and you will find I cross swords with many people, including those I count as my friends. I suspect you may find yourself in that group as well but, never once, has anyone suggested I have a vendetta against you or any of them! Liz has accused me of bullying, stalking, trying to shut her up and lying about my own and familial disabilities. Something I will not let lie without a fight.

Bruce. Thanks for your kind words. I do try to be reasonable. The only thing that I will continue to do, and will be called childish for it, which I am :-) is refer to Lizzie as Liz. 'Don't call me...' is a red rag to a bull I'm afraid. Schoolboy humour will win out all the time:-) Glad to see you agree about social media. We all agree about the abuse of the Native Americans. What we can disagree on is that it is more important that the the plight of the Kurds, or the Australian Aborigine, or the Suomi, or Irish Catholics, or any other of the millions of abused peoples around the world. Maybe the American Indians are just prettier or more fashionable in some eyes?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 03:08 PM

Bruce,
Thanks for that - I hope it works.
The meeting is certainly an opportunity.
Time will tell if it will be focused on needed steps to resolve the most pressing issues first, without losing track on the many others that have piled up through the many years.

In previous careers, I worked in the field of community development, and worked with underprivlidged groups and communities and with primary producing groups, often helping them move their priorities forward with government. So, I understand the frustration with what seems to be a lack of progress, that can be interpreted differently by different people.

Personally, I am encouraged by the resulting growth in the maturity of the aboriginal movement. Considering the current climate, I did not anticipate this meeting occuring so soon, but have breathed a sigh of relief that it is happening.

Let's keep our hopes up, (and heads high), thet this is a true opportunity for progress that all Canadians can be proud to be a part of, in moving many of these issues forward to resolution.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 03:25 PM

"Considering the current climate, I did not anticipate this meeting occuring so soon, but have breathed a sigh of relief that it is happening."

It's a funny thing but there's a lot of things going on right now that feel quite positive, something in the air, I don't know, but people are mobilising around different causes that have remained in stasis for decades and even longer. Perhaps some of these movements are a little incoherent, but I find the way that people are currently communicating and mobilising themselves refreshing and the internet certainly seems to be playing a big part in it all.* Power to the people and all that! I hope Spence gets her meeting and things get moving for the indigenous people's movement that she's become a public figurehead for.



* as an aside concerning social media and it's impact (or otherwise, depending on your perspective) on modern politics, it's interesting to note that there's now a 'No Politics Please' (Nopple) app that one can install on Facebook.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 03:51 PM

""Spence gets her meeting""

A clarification, news reports I read says Harper and reps. agreed to meet with Aboriginal community representatives, not with Spence. It indicated that if Spence choose to attend this meeting, (as she is a chief) it would also be fine.

IMO, the other aboriginal community initiatives were more fruitful in getting the meeting than the PR initiative by Spence - though those iniatiatives seemed to get less international and social media coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 04:07 PM

though those iniatiatives seemed to get less international and social media coverage

And, dare I say it, less of the mass histrionics that has beset the Spence PR? Maybe an object lesson in how to actually get things done?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 04:25 PM

"So, I ask that y'all stop fighting with each other and find some common ground."

Gee... where have I heard that before, 9? Good luck with that. Never worked before. Too many people SHOUTING and NObody listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 04:36 PM

One person not eating (with an ultimatum) is a consideration, but no more than that, IMO.

Current (local and international) social network concern is not a big factor, IMO. Take the seal hunt for example, the campaign is/was much more vibrant, but never moved any Canadian administration through many years, not one inch.

Potential economic impact on essential transportation is a more significant consideration, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:09 PM

1) It's means "it is" or "it was". That's all.

2) Its is the possessive case.

3) I am now no longer White, no matter what you think I am. I am fed up with us/you, no offense.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:25 PM

Feel free to be fed up, the world will not stop operating or spinning because of it:)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:49 PM

Ed, that's true, but we WILL bring this place to a halt. There are about 800 members of JTF 2, and there are about 40,000 of us. They don't have the ammo, no offense.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:49 PM

Time to whoa up and discuss. Too many important threads get closed when the personal stuff starts and it's heading that way, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 06:07 PM

gnu, that is as as offensive as anything you ever wrote, although I never yet found anything you wrote to now offensive.

OK, I'll shut up, but calm your friends down. I meant no disrespect to Ed, to Harper, to you. If you find what I said to be bad, then tell me why.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 06:47 PM

999 I was refering to your comment on word useage, not to the initiative itself.-guess it was taken differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:41 PM

No, 9... I have been far more offensive than that. Ed hit the nail on the head, as usual... sharp tack, that ED. I admit I responded to Ed's post too harshly... stunned? silly? Yeah, maybe. But I'll chalk it up to being a bit pissed about sommat else. That don't matter.

9... nowt to do with you. To do with ED's post and where it might lead.

If THAT pisses either of you off, well, schenacadaie. I don't find any of it offensive. If I am wrong, you KNOW I will grovel for forgiveness and truly mean it. But, right now, I don't see it. Maybe I am dense?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 08:28 PM

Bruce, I hear you, but...BUT...

First off, I disagree over Facebook, for it is Facebook that is DRIVING the whole Idle No More movement..It IS making a difference, and with respect, you need to be in there using it in the way I do to truly see what's going on. I also know it helped to bring in money to help save Pe'Sla..and that Amazon Watch also rely on Facebook donations to help them keep going. If they want something 'put out there' they'll come to me to ask me to put it on my page...Chief Raoni's European visit was organized via Facebook recently, in December, word of it also being sent out by Gert, who organized it, videos and photos being sent over from France almost as events were happening...It's instant and it works...

Secondly, and I most certainly don't mean to cause upset to you, but I don't give diddlysquat over the background or pedigree of any of the men mentioned above, for rude bastards are rude bastards, no matter where they come from, and no matter what their backgrounds may be.

I could write thousands of words about them and their sot, but, hey, I'll leave it to Shania

And just for the record, boys, I don't give a tinker's cuss if you like or dislike the way I write. I ain't never going to change..so just don't read it. Problem solved....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 08:37 PM

This sums it all up for me....

Dana Lone Hill:
"...you gain momentum with every soul you meet that don't give a shit about their future generations, it makes you fight harder for change. Because you never give up on hoping they too will see the light. That they will see what we do here and now will affect the next seven generations, whether that be for better or worse.
"See, really I can't tell you how not to be an activist. Because I care. And I think you do too. However, I will not give up on that awakening of your soul, when I think someday you will realize, enough is enough."

Taken from just one of dozens of Idle No More groups out there now...

United First Nations of Turtle Island - FB Page

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:03 PM

Gotta follow up on sommat 9 said.

I don't do Face for the resons he stated. So, LC, where do I go?

I emailed, as I sated earlier, the big chief (Maliseet) here in my Province, and got no response.

My Native friends told me about the protest downtown. I went. There were so few of them and fewer pale and that may have been because of what I said before. What is the link to the MAIN website for Idle No More, LC? How do people join in? Why is this so complicated for people for people who want to join in this protest?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:34 PM

http://www.idlenomore.com/, but like other movements these days, the up-to-the-minute notices work better on social media than a website. Websites are best for information that doesn't change much. With outlets such as Twitter or Facebook, they send an update to their subscribers/followers in seconds.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:44 PM

And, rude bitches are rude bitches, and you keep proving it.

Max, Joe Offer-If you don't start reining Liz in on using Mudcat to spread her personal insults to others,it likely will get worse:(

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:47 PM

In the words of my ancestors, "Fuckin' Ida."

Ed, gnu and Liz, let's relax.

I like and respect all of you. You are all three my friends, as is Greg.

1) I said that Facebook works from time to time.
2) I said (or implied anyway) that Facebook sucks.
3) I said we should all get along since we're on the same side.
4) This shit happened in the late 1960s/early 1970s. It destroyed us.

Love, peace and sardines.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:50 PM

Unless such personal insults end, I suggest this post be closed down, as some of Liz's have been before.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:51 PM

I meant thread be closed down, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:58 PM

As a BTW, Ed T is erudite, incisive and very smart. gnu is a good-hearted, intelligent and up-front man (whom I wish would capitalize his screen name), and Liz is both smart and passionate about the causes in which she believes. We all fight battles in personal ways. The problem too often is we fight those battles among ourselves. Therein we may find DOH!

Love the lot of you even if you detest each other.

Here is a great song; worth a listen. Says lots in few words.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 05:15 AM

Love you too, Bruce...but yup, I'm afraid I'll stand aside, in fact, a LONG way back, when it comes to loving them.

Ed, baby, YOU started this, not me. Go back and look at your first rude and pedantic post. You don't like what I write? Then DON'T read it. That's surely not hard for a very smart guy to get his around, is it? And with regard to your 'bitch' comment, hey, if you can't take it, then don't dish it out. But you do NOT have the right, in my book, to be so damned rude to me, without me coming back to you on what you have said.

gnu, just try getting yourself a Facebook page and CONNECT to the world. Go on, try it and see. Facebook won't bite you! And you can always walk away from it if it's not your thing. All you need to do is type into the FB search box, at the top of your page, any name of any Movement, Politician, Friend, Business, Media Outlet, Subject, etc. that you wish to find.

New one to me, just been sent it this morning: 'Idle No More' Global Day of Action, Solidarity and Resurgence

Official FB page: Main 'Idle No More' FB page

And this one, which hopefully, FB will soon remove, but it shows the other side of this...

Idle No More Resistance - A page for the Racist Bastards

Another page sent to me this morning: Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence Hunger Strike

Of course, you're going to need to be ON Facebook to access those links...but I've put them there just to show you a tiny fraction of what's going on in there at present with regard to the Idle No More movement...

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 06:01 AM

I did try Facebook and it bit me... hundreds of people wanted me to be their friend. Most of them were strangers to me and some were people I knew but thought were strange. I also heard many sroies re what Bruce said. I left. I have PMing here, email, Messenger, phone, internet phone, private chat groups... don't need Facebook or the headaches.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 06:53 AM

Lizzzz:

My first post was accurate versus rude as to the value of your Mudcat petititions and your rude and insulting thread title - both to the democratic process in Canada and to Canadians who value democracy, as I do. Substantial change is certainly in order, and overdue, but your title is a clear insult, especially given your limited insight (from your posts) of all the related factors.

It is you that have consistantly tried to limit debate in this thread and others by putting your one-sided position forward that your keyboard tactics from another country,actually made any difference. You have tried to get others from posting anything outside your (wet)dream.

No, I won't be silenced by someone who puts little logic forward and listens to no one except anyone who parrots her own beliefs. Yes I will continue to stimulate logical debate and if you act like a bitch, I will treat you like one, - disrespect intended.

I am surprised that you have never noticed that you are a magnet for insults? I am surprised that you have never considerd the actual reasons why. Consider that it is not any of the the movements you "pretend" to have a great international influence over, your behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 07:07 AM

Lizzz- BTW In your first post in this thread to me, you accused me of calling you "stupid. The record will show that I never used that word.

However, since you introduced it into the discussion, not I, I have wondered (as I read your posts) if you consciously or subconsciously intrioduced the word in "a Fraudian slip" and that you know something that we do not?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 07:16 AM

999- Perhaps ""misguided moral passion is better than confused indifference"", but, in my opinion, not by much - especially if it is combined with arrogance and disrespect.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 08:06 AM

"My first post was accurate versus rude as to the value of your Mudcat petititions and your rude and insulting thread title - both to the democratic process in Canada and to Canadians who value democracy, as I do. Substantial change is certainly in order, and overdue, but your title is a clear insult, especially given your limited insight (from your posts) of all the related factors."

This title is NOT rude. It is also the title of the petition, for keriste's sake! STOP nit-picking over inane things! Go into OTHER threads and tell THEM off for THEIR titles, but for fuck's sake get OFF my back!

Stephen Harper has single-handedly managed to lower Canada's reputation around the world. He is as big an idiot and even more of a danger than Bush ever was. He is a Corporate Puppet and is intent on selling Canada to the Highest Bidder.

Once, not very long ago either, Canada was looked up to around the world. Now, it is being led by a baffoon, as are so many other countries, including my own.

Stuff your 'Democratic Process', for Canada has become an Oligarchy, NOT a Democracy. Many countries are the same now, including the UK...It's called The New World Order..

It is taking the First Nations of your country to wake you all up.   I suggest you join them..and then use your words for supporting them in every way possible, rather than wasting them to insult me, for I've been chased around the internet for YEARS by folks like you..and I learnt long ago how to answer back.

If you DON'T 'Get Harper OUT' then trust me, your country will cease to exist as the True Canada in a few more years..and as her Lakes and Rivers, Lands and Mountains are sold to the Corporate Bastards, Canada will lose more and more of her Once Golden reputation...

The Tar Sands has already done grave damage to that reputation.

You need to start seeing this world without borders, without countries..for what is being done in Canada affects us all. What is happening in Brazil affects us ALL. We are one Species living on ONE planet, and I CARE about the future of my children!   So ANY bastard who is intent on devastating their future for Greed and Power I will do my best to rise up against.

Start fighting for the Seven Generations to come and STOP fighting with me!..

And stop asking for this thread to be closed when it is YOU and your 2 buddies who are doing all the shit-sitrring in here in the first place, just get out of the thread and then peace will return.

Dana Lone Hill:
"...you gain momentum with every soul you meet that don't give a shit about their future generations, it makes you fight harder for change. Because you never give up on hoping they too will see the light. That they will see what we do here and now will affect the next seven generations, whether that be for better or worse.

See, really I can't tell you how not to be an activist. Because I care. And I think you do too. However, I will not give up on that awakening of your soul, when I think someday you will realize, enough is enough."

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 08:27 AM

No, I certainly don't "trust you" Lizz, nor your interpretation of world political events, including democracy in Canada, where I am a proud citizen. And yes, your thread title is insulting and rude-regardless if I as a Canadian support or voted for the current administration or not. You can't squirm out of that one, or dismiss it as unimportant. I have an idea, "think of someone beyond yourself before you "cut and pastie" thread titles", if that does not take too much time from your broader "cut and pastie" initiatives.


BTW, I have no 2 buddies, as you state. It is one of the many illusions you have created in your mind. Your disputes with other are your disputes, that I detect you have hard-earned, though I note your tendancy to lump all people together-what a crock you present.


Liz, I do not need any advice from your example on stimulating change. If more people used your approach, there would be few disputes anywhere resolved.

Change will occur in Canada, but not because of "cut and pastie" initiatives from rude and unfocused ninnies such as you. IMO, while possibly well-meaning, your contribution to these initiatives is in reality meaningless. I would advise you to "take stock" and focus on doing something meaningful, instead of pretending you are impacting something by "riding on the shirt-tails of an internet merry-go round with others -and posting it here.

And yes, you can quote me as calling you "a ninnie", cause I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 10:08 AM

Like 999, gnu and, possibly, Ed T, I am an old-stock Canadian with aboriginal relatives. Like them, I am deeply distressed by the dysfunctional relations between the First Nations and the federal government of Canada. Like them, I believe that shrill railing from beyond our borders will do the square root of zero good.

Prime Minister Harper is not particularly sensitive to the daily variations in public opinion; he has a majority government to indicate the opinions of those who matter -- the people who voted in this country on the last election day. Because he has scheduled a meeting with First Nations leaders, and invited Chief Spence, I assume that his Cabinet colleagues and close advisors have recommended this course of action. I note that the agenda for this meeting covers some difficult ground -- specifically, where so much federal government money went with so little to show for it -- as well as some important governance and liaison issues.

The blockade tactics adopted by First Nations protesters have achieved nothing of benefit to anyone. Yes, the situation of many bands is completely unacceptable, but that won't change because the VIA Rail train was stopped on the main line between Toronto and Montreal, or the traffic was prevented from crossing the Peace Bridge at Cornwall.

What had more influence on bringing an end to the U.S. involvement in Viet Nam: the Weather Underground blowing up banks, or middle-class people telling Congress in hundreds of different ways that they wanted the troops home?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 10:14 AM

I don't know if the over-the-top stuff helped. It's possible that first there was a loud noise, and then people listened for the voices behind it. Was the loud noise necessary?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM

from today's CBC .. Attawapiskat audit finds 'no evidence of due diligence'

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 12:32 PM

For the World...and for this Thread....

David R Maracle - Universal Healing

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 12:51 PM

Here's some current comment by three of Canada's most prominent national affairs columnists:

Canada leaves Aboriginal hopes to incubate in misery by Michael den Tandt of the National Post

Too many First Nations people live in a dream palace by Jeffery Simpson of the Globe and Mail

Education reform to trump property rights in First Nations' talks with Tories by John Ibbitson of the Globe and Mail

The Globe website also offers this editorial from 4 January:

A regrettable hunger strike brings about a desirable meeting of minds

The consensus of opinion among the better class of journalists in this country, conservative and liberal alike, is that the current system is, indeed, criminally bad for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 03:54 PM

Thank you Charmion, for your links and for summing up some points so well.

I suspect (from viewing happenings from the sidelines) that there are environmental activists (and others with thorny side issues) riding on the shirt-tails of legitimate Aboriginal concerns. Hopefully, the Aboriginal leaders are wise (which I know they are) and will see this, and choose to focus on issues that are the most pressing for the Aborginal community with this recent opportunity.

Though it seems real, it is hard to fathom how anyone with a smidgen of sense could blame all of the Aboriginal issues, some that have been with us for many moons, on one man and one Canadian administration. Go figure.

However, you are correct that a growing number of Canadians, those who actually matter in this discussion, want to wrong some historic (and current) wrongs. I am proud to say that I am one of those Canadians, who stands in friendship with my fellow Aboriginal Canadians.. I am confidentthat the growing number of Canadians with a similar conviction will have a much greater impact on success then the "chatter" from the sidelines.

Subject: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 05:56 PM

Idle No More Actions: Why the Natives are at the Point of Outrage
©by Doug George-Kanentiio
Akwesasne Mohawk

"There are good reasons for Canada's Native people to be at the point where frustration, impatience and anger rush together in a blend of powerful emotions bordering on rage.

It is to the credit of Native people that they have adopted peaceful, non-confrontational tactics as they march across highways and bridges or gather in malls and city centres in flash mobs to let the nation know they will no longer accept the dictates of the federal government, that the time has come to compel Canada to abide by its treaty obligations and remove the shackles of the Indian Act.

When Canada adopted the United Nations Declaration of Indigenous Rights on November 12, 2010 it committed itself to working in partnership to secure the health, safety, self sufficiency and prosperity of Natives while acknowledging an inherent right for aboriginal peoples to make their own decisions and manage their own affairs.

Bill C-45, now federal law, was enacted in direct contradiction to the Declaration as it assumes the federal government has the ultimate right to decide how Native lands may be developed or indigenous title extinguished. It makes it easier for band councils to open their territories for exploitation while omitting any mention of the federal government's treaty obligations. It further entrenches the authority of the band council system to undermine, manipulate and extinguish treaties or aboriginal land title with the compliance of the minister of Indian Affairs.

The people are upset because the lack of consultation in the passage of Bill C-45. They are angry because they believe the federal government is removing environmental protection from millions of hectares of land, much of which was taken from Native people in breach of treaty and aboriginal land title. These areas may well be subject to formal land claims or considered an essential element of an indigenous economy and lifestyle which is intimately tied to the environment. By waiving environmental protection those lands will inevitably be exploited by domestic and foreign companies without the need to consider the effects on aboriginal people or the natural world.

There is anger at the empowerment of a band council system which is alien to how Natives governed their affairs prior to the arrival of the Europeans. As contemporary research has proven Natives had their own way of administering to human needs in a manner which insured the ecological integrity and health of their lands. For thousands of years Native governments oversaw trade, delivered services, provided security and worked to sustain a culture and lifestyle within specific jurisdictional areas. That they had the right and capacity to do so was obviously acknowledged by the European colonial powers through formal treaties, that most fundamental of contracts between sovereign nations. By entering into treaties or trade compacts the Europeans recognized that Native nations were their equal under international law and under that law the unilateral breach of a treaty returns the signatory nations to their previous condition. As the demonstrators have said, Canada is free to abrogate its treaties with Natives but in doing so the land and all of its resources revert back to its former aboriginal status.

For decades non-Native academics, politicians and writers have sought to obscure the complexity and sophistication of aboriginal culture before and during the colonial era. They have used profane language and images in labeling Native people and as a matter of formal policy sought to destroy aboriginal identity. After the treaty era concluded the physical, intellectual, social and spiritual abuse of Native people was accentuated and became a shameful part of Canadian history. Whatever was left of indigenous self determination was wiped out to be replaced by an inefficient, corrupt and alien form of local administration-the band council.

These councils were imposed upon Natives to replace the indigenous governments, often at force of arms. They had nothing to do with the traditional governing methods but instead enacted a system of absolute reliance on the federal government which retains, even to this day, the power to veto any law or action undertaken by the band councils. That such entities are not reflective of indigenous principles of governance is another source of anger for Native people. That these councils are inefficient and often corrupt, created in part to extinguish treaties and make fatal compromises on resource development is a primary concern of most Natives who are infuriated that the federal government is now prepared to give these colonial entities even greater opportunity to exploit their own people.

But what do Natives want? Start with by rescinding the Indian Act followed by a series of national Native congresses to replace the band councils with genuinely aboriginal governments. Make a firm, unqualified commitment to abide by treaties and acknowledge these contracts as agreements between sovereign entities. Break the destructive reliance on federal money by regional resource management agencies based upon open commerce with free trade among Native nations. Have the UN Declaration of Indigenous Rights made into federal law and binding on all provinces and agencies including the Native nations themselves. Work with Native people as they revive their ancestral governments and re-establish regional confederacies. Acknowledge that Native nations have the right to develop their own resources independent of federal interference and remove "Crown land" status across the nation.    And recognize that there is a need to place more resources into removing the myths and lies which have distorted aboriginal history through the creation of a National Aboriginal Museum in Ottawa."

Idle No More - Facebook page

Idle No More - Main site

Some 'history' on Idle No More

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 06:36 PM

If you believe the subject is important, post about it.
If you believe you're more important than the subject, and wish to use Mudcat as your personal "steel cage", please don't bother.

The thread is about Idle No More, and issues related.
You either care about it or not. Show us which.

Personal sniping will likely (hopefully) be deleted from here on out.

Subject: RE: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:23 AM

I was previously unaware of this, but from looking at the Idle No More webpage, it's interesting to note that the Idle No More campaign - as a grassroots people's movement - asserts it's independence from all chiefs, including Spence.

This seems like an important distinction to me - particularly if, as has been implied - there has been any financial iffyness to be found among indigenous leaders; which tbh wouldn't be exactly shocking, for 'leaders' the world over, including among oppressed and poor communities, abuse their position for personal gain.

Glad to see a new thread too, the old one was getting, old..

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 11:45 AM

Two good articles, Charmion, in helping me understand what is going on but 2 of them have had the content removed already :-( I was surprised to see the following -

Chief Spence, leading a group or "nation" of about 1,500 people on the shores of James Bay, demanded at the beginning of her strike a series of meetings with the Governor-General and the Prime Minister. This demand reflected a very old and very wrong idea (part of dream-palace thinking) that the "Crown" is somehow an independent agency with which aboriginal "nations" have a direct relationship, whereas the "Crown" is nothing of the sort.

The "Crown" is the Government of Canada, a matter of clearly established constitutional law, which is why Chief Spence made her demand to meet the Prime Minister, too. Stephen Harper was correct in refusing a face-to-face meeting, since a prime minister should not be blackmailed into doing what any group or individual wants. On Friday, however, he did agree to meet soon with a group of aboriginal leaders that could include Chief Spence.

Looks like people got things wrong on both sides, which returns us to the importance of making sure things are done correctly in the first place!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 12:13 PM

Sorry, Dave -- that's the Globe and Mail for ya. If you're not a paying subscriber, they whisk their content away at the first opportunity. I'll avoid linking to them in future.

The main point Jeffery Simpson raises is that the Government of Canada inherited the responsibilities of the Crown in Canada, including the original treaties with the First Nations. Were they negotiated in good faith in the first place? Who knows? What can the Government of Canada do about it today if they weren't? Well, isn't that the sixty-four thousand dollar question?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 01:49 PM

The Mikisew First Nation and Frog Lake FN (both from Alberta) are putting challenges to parts of both Bill C-38 and C-45 before the Supreme Court, specifically the parts that changes the Navigable Waterways Protection Act. I wish them luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 01:54 PM

Sorry. Federal Court, not Supreme Court.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 03:14 PM

Today commentary from another notableCanadian National affairs columniest:

Meeting with Harper won't settle aboriginal people's problems:


Andrew Coyne

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 03:30 PM

And there's that.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 03:40 PM

Here is an interesting perspective in the recent audit of the reserve, where Spence is chief and an editorial separating the Audit from the other issues, not related to Spence.


Commentary on the audit of Attawapiskat spending

Attawapiskat audit is no excuse for denying native grievances: Editorial

On today's news radio reports I have heard a number of perspecties.

One is concern about the desperate conditions and low income on the reserve and the high spending and salaries of the political folks (and associated), led by Spence.

Accusations that the government released the audit because of the hunger strike - though I understand it has been in the works for some time.

Comments that Spence is a master politician, and began the hunger strike as a political move to divert attention to the damaging audit (that she knew was coming), which documents very poor practices under her elected term.

Many comments regarding the lack of financial accountability under Spenc's leadership.


IMO, Spence and her elected political council made a bad mistake in not responding or talking with reporters on this matter-which they should have had knowlede of and prepared for.

IMO, the native movement is wise by steering a wide path from this and the Spence administration, and directly focus strategy for the upcoming meeting and developing a "united voice" long unresolved native social, economic and governance issues.

Subject: RE: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 05:01 PM

I was hoping for (American) "Idol no More"

Subject: RE: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 05:07 PM

IMO, they should be merged-linked into one, as others mostly are linked - regardless of the topic, personalities or personal perspectives.

Should we all be catered to individually, if we want to be, so we can have our own separate thread - about, basically the same thing?

Good questions for the future management approach of Mudcat - which caters to many views from many countries, unique personalities and perspectives.

Subject: RE: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 05:13 PM

My first fear in seeing the thread title, was that Eric Idle had passed and it was an Mudcat Obit. I am now relieved that it is not so.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:20 PM

And the lead story on The CBC news this evening is the judicial decision on the status of Metis pele and non-status Indians. It will take a lot of working out but the bottom line is that all aboriginal pele are entitled to the same level of federal benefits.

So now the unseemly struggle begins over how many aboriginal ancestors qualifies an individual as Aboriginal ... The technical expression is "blood quantum."

You heard it here first.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:32 PM

I knew this decisionwas likely coming down this week, and suspected it would go that way,
Charmion.

Good questions are does this water down the aboriginal right, and how will the status folks and gov't deal with it (beyond the appeal, which likely will be upheld)?

In some Cdn locations the decision may be less significant than in others. But, I suspect many folks will be mining their ancestry carefully, in anticipation that it may financially benefit them and their kids....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:42 PM

"Were they negotiated in good faith in the first place? Who knows? What can the Government of Canada do about it today if they weren't?"

SFA

"So now the unseemly struggle begins over how many aboriginal ancestors qualifies an individual as Aboriginal ... The technical expression is "blood quantum.""

It is well defined in law.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:53 PM

Some of my close friends who are status, feel that the non status group waters down their rights and view these folks as more "whites".

Another close friend, who is active in the "warrier society", once said to me:

""while I do not support "non status" rights, I will defend any non-status person if they are harassed by whites because of their first nations blood - blood that we share"".

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:02 PM

From Calgary Sun, as linked above:


Calgary Sun Tuesday

by Ezra Levant

January 8 2013 08, 2013 02:54 AM MST

Master media manipulator: Chief Spence knew what she was doing when she pulled her dieting stunt in Ottawa rather than Attawapiskat.


"A new audit of the Attawapiskat Indian reserve was released Monday. It was shocking.

The accounting firm of Deloitte randomly chose 505 financial transactions, between April 1, 2005 and Nov. 30, 2011, to review. They found "81% of files did not have adequate supporting documents and over 60% had no documentation of the reason for payment."

A lot of that money was supposed to go to housing. Attawapiskat is the reserve where some houses have leaky roofs, poor insulation, broken plumbing and are generally unfit for habitation. But Deloitte wrote, "There is no evidence of due diligence in the use of public funds, including the use of funds for housing."

Deloitte can't find where the money went. But maybe the long list of people on the band's rich payroll might know, starting with Theresa Spence, the chief, or her boyfriend, Clayton Kennedy, who just happens to be the town's financial manager. He bills the band $850 a day to manage their finances.

In fact, there are 21 politicians on the band payroll. Plus plenty of full-time staff. But Deloitte didn't find that reassuring: "Attawapiskat First Nation did not provide us with any job descriptions for individuals who are involved in the financial management of funding agreements."

The band doesn't even produce annual budgets. High school football teams have budgets. The band council doesn't keep regular minutes of their meetings, either. Ordinary band members can't find out what their politicians are doing. (Spence, in a news release Monday, dismissed the audit's release as "no more than a distraction from the true issue" and said it was an attempt to "discredit" her.)

So what does this all look like, if you pour $100 million through such a system, as the federal government has done since 2005? Well, here are a few of the findings in Deloitte's sample of 505 transactions.

In September, 2011, at the height of the housing crisis, they spent $4,333 on breakfast supplies. No documentation. No contract, no invoice.

In April of 2011, a "consultant" got paid $303,256. The identity of the consultant is not known. The documentation is incomplete.

What kind of consultant did Attawapiskat need for $303,256 last year? In the middle of a housing crisis? Was it a roofing consultant? Someone to develop a roofing strategy? Is that why they didn't have money to actually hire a roofer?

There are many of these employment contracts — often six figures, always anonymous.

Another common one is "other purchases." One was for $87,150. Auditor's note: "Occurrence questionable." Was anything even bought? Who knows?

Countless money was spent on legal fees. One payment was for $68,910 — lawyer unknown, no supporting documentation. Was it band business? Or maybe someone's divorce?

What about a real estate deal three years ago for

$1.1 million? But it's an Indian reserve. The band already owns all the land. And the vendor is anonymous. There was zero supporting documentation. Was this $1.1 million property deal even in Attawapiskat? Or was it in Florida?

There are a flurry of these property purchases — all secret, no street address or even a general geographic location given.Eighty-one percent of the files the auditor checked are this way. Not 1% or 2%. This isn't an error. It's a way of life.

If the people involved had Italian names and were from the Montreal construction industry, or French-Canadian names from Montreal ad agencies, instead of Indian "consultants" from Attawapiskat, there would be resignations and criminal charges flying.

But it would be racist to ask tough questions of Chief Spence and her boyfriend. And, she's so close to starving herself, it would be mean, too.

Is Stephen Harper really going to meet with her on Friday? Shouldn't the RCMP do so first?"

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:06 PM

Prime minister John Diefenbaker once said something like:
"When hunting big game don't be distracred by rabbit tracks!"
The native people have serious issues that must be worked out and I support them in that, but this protest movement seems to be lacking in focus. Too many rabbit tracks!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:15 PM

Bruce's link from further up.

The REAL Story of Attawapiskat funding - Not written by Sun News


Article worth reading unless you have preconceived notions about Indians.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:28 PM

Not sure which Sun is referred to but I think it only fair to give the other side - In this case The Star.

Make up your own minds, folks. Believe nothing you hear, a little of what you read and only half of what you see :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:55 PM

Global breaking news

Interesting how politician Spence was so interested in giving the news stations an "audience' and had plent of time for 'em when it was "going all her way".

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:24 PM

And, yet another perspective:
Interesting perspective from IPolitics

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:41 PM

Thank you Lizzie for the link to The National Post on Attawapiskat funding. I haven't been following the bickering on Mudcat, so I never saw the link to the article before. In fact, I couldn't make sense of C-45 after a First Nations friend gave me a heads up. Then I ran into an Idle No More demonstration. I felt peoples' fear and concern and decided to do better homework.

Chief Spence helped greatly in bringing First Nations issues to the forefront. Small-minded people accuse her, a leader of a community in crisis, of less than perfect double-entry bookkeeping. So what? Not everyone is as perfect as these self-rightous mudcatters. The Canadian government controlled the money. How good are their controls? Crisises create daily problems. Americans misplaced billions in the chaos in Iraq. After the kerfuffle we might also give Chief Spence credit for raising the issues of reporting, equity and transparancy on reserves.

The National Post is as right wing as The Sun group, with less trashy writers. This article is important.

Again, thanks,
David

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:42 PM

The article linked above by Ms Cornish is interesting, but deals with only half the story -- and not the more interesting half. It provides evidence that the federal government is over-promising and under-delivering, actually handing over far less money than it has claimed, and that the money handed over must cover a much wider array of soial services than is usually acknowledged.

I, for one, am quite prepared to believe that.

But the documents linked to in that article refer only to the sums paid to the band; they have nothing to say about what the band did with the money. That is what many hundreds of thousands of inquiring minds in this country would like to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:57 PM

I hardly feel it is "small minded" to be concerned that so many people live in such poor conditions on this First Nations area, some that reached a housing crisis situation last winter - while so much money - intended to help these folks - is now unaccounted for, and the people responsible don't seem to want to discuss it.

It's also odd that when these same third-world conditions were raised in a dedicated post on Mudcat at the time last winter, few people on mudcat actually participated in the discussion. Most people moved on to other more pressing mudcat threads. Check out the thread-if anyone wants a trip down memory lane.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 10:03 PM

The National Post article showed unfunding for the housing and survival needs. This would increase the probability of crisis decision making, sloppy bookkeeping, consultants taking advantage, etc. Does that make government underfunding wonderful?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:15 AM

Define "underfunding"' please.

The government is clearly being disingenuous, which is to say economical with the truth to gain a tactical advantage in this dispute.

But Attawapiskat is no shining example of openness and transparency, either -- isn't this the same band that screamed bloody murder when a federal administrator was foisted on it some months ago?

First Nations funding issues have something in common with military procurement: costs are discussed in global terms -- 15 years of maintenance for 65 jet fighters, for example, or building new houses for an entire community living in a very isolated area where all materials must be flown in. None of us on this board -- unless there's a deputy minister hiding out there under a Mudcat monicker -- has the administrative experience to manipulate such concepts knowledgably and explain them lucidly to the rest of us

I believe band administrators have much the same problem: they have to translate the minutiae of daily life in the bush into funding proposals that fit into a government program that calculates its spending in terms of Parliamentary votes.

In the armed forces, there are literally thousands of skilled administrators, logisticians, engineers and planners to handle that challenge, and we still end up with trucks that break, sewage disposal problems on sub-Arctic bases, and budget over-runs. But the military chain of command can't slam its books shut and pull the race card when incompetence and error are found, and the Department of National Defence has no problem firing those who are culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:37 AM

Funding is certainly an issue, as it is everywhere, as there is never enough. Saying the issues are merely because of underfunding is simplistic (though may seem logical from afar) and takes few of the factors "on the ground" into consideration.

But, the lack of trust, accountability, and leadership on all sides seem to be the main factor- as poorly needed infrastructure projucts go nowhere because people have big egos, see things differently, have different approaches and agenda's and dig their heels in.

Here is a news item from CBC, from about a year ago. I believe it may have been also posted last year.
Checking in on Attawapiskat

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:44 AM

There is a lot of that Charmion. I had already said that the link provided by Bruce earlier was no big surprise. Whenever there is government funding there are accusations of mis-management. I wanted to show that there are two sides to every story and, more often than not, neither can be fully believed. It is the easiest path in any argument to shout and scream that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and the largest weapon in that armoury seems to be the race card.

In an issue as important as human rights it is important to be particularly objective and especially convincing. It is by this method, not by actual or virtual terrorism that Gandhi freed India; that Martin Luther King made the government see sense and that Gerry Adams eventually won the case for the Northern Irish Catholics.

This is another of those important issues and it will only be won by common-sense, reason and meaningful communications. I am sure that the people that matter do realise this and that they will distance themselves from those who seek to derail the process.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:56 AM

I worked with non profit groups for years. During this time, the groups applied for, and received some government monies.

What I can tell you is that accounting for previous monies spent is a big factor in getting new funds - regardless of the group involved. It should be no surprise that if you have "sloppy accounting", or cannot account for where funds have gone (especially large amounts), there is a liklihood that it will impact future funding and flow of monies from any government, regardless of the government leader -that is just the way it has been, and likely will be into the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 07:13 AM

An interesting perspective from today's iPoliticsz:

Building a Crown-First Nations relationship on trust

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 07:19 AM

Another interesting perspective from John Ivison in today's National Post.

Theresa Spence's hunger strike obscures the key First Nations issue: resource re

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 07:44 AM

I provide the text to this interesting perspective, as the Globe and Mail does not seem to link here:


What the Métis decision means for Canada Add to ...
JEFFREY SIMPSON

The Globe and Mail

Wednesday, Jan. 09 2013, The Government of Canada will spend about $250-billion on all of its programs in 2013-2014. Put that in the context of the assertion made by a lawyer representing some of the Indian leaders who are meeting Prime Minister Stephen Harper on Friday.

According to Jeffrey Rath, "indigenous people" are owed "tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars" by the federal government because of lands, resources and other materials taken from these "peoples." The "hundreds of billions" figure is a guess. Could be more, could be less. Who cares when everything is based on the assertion that most of us live on stolen land and, therefore, owe almost whatever money is demanded, plus penance and apologies and, of course, guilt.

To these demands have now been added the claims of the Métis and non-status Indians, who, the Federal Court of Canada ruled on Tuesday (in a judgment that will almost certainly be appealed by the government), had the right to be treated in the same way as Indians.

As there are 400,000 people who identify as Métis, the financial obligations on the federal and provincial governments could be extremely heavy, indeed.

Back when the Charter of Rights was being negotiated in the early 1980s, it was obvious that the status Indian leadership and that of the Métis were superficially polite to each other but deeply distrustful. The Indians did not consider the Métis to be fully Indian (as, indeed, they were not and are not), and the groups' treatment experiences within Canada had been different. The Métis, however, saw similarities where status Indians did not, and were anxious that the status Indians not receive constitutional protection that escaped them.

And now the Federal Court says, in essence, that the two groups were treated sufficiently the same, and were lumped together by governments many decades ago, so they should be considered in a similar fashion today. Which will mean endless negotiations, considerable litigation and, if the Métis are ultimately successful, a huge additional financial obligation on the government that status Indians can only hope doesn't come from what they're receiving. If, indeed, the government owes the Indians "hundreds of billions" of dollars, according to one of their lawyers, what might Métis lawyers demand?

Of course, a large number of Métis have integrated into what we might call mainstream society. So we will now be treated, in ways the judge hinted at but didn't define (how could he?), to procedures by which a Métis person is to be defined.

What definition will be used in terms of what share of ancestry was aboriginal, and how long ago? Who's to say who's a Métis: the claimant, or some adjudicating board? Obviously, it will be important to know when allocating benefits, just as it is for any other government program. A person can't claim to be entitled to a pension without proving age or citizenship with documentation.

It's not a judge's business to worry about public reaction, but this ruling, should it be upheld, is likely to prove highly controversial, to put matters mildly. The Métis who wanted this designation will be delighted; they have fought for their sense of justice in constitutional negotiations and courtrooms for more than three decades.

The judgment, however, lands at a particularly delicate moment, what with the Idle No More movement, demonstrations, the failure by police to enforce court injunctions, an inflamed sense of aboriginal oppression, Chief Theresa Spence's hunger strike, and garbled accounting records all making the news, not to mention the meeting on Friday between some chiefs and the Prime Minister.

For all the obeisance paid to the rituals of multiculturalism, the majority of Canadian society is extremely integrationist – far more so than the United States or Europe – within the two broad streams of French- and English-language groups. Citizens who have joined, or are seeking as immigrants to join, the broad Canadian mainstream are likely to be themselves confused and resentful on being told they owe "hundreds of billions" of dollars, along with restitution and guilt; and that the Métis and non-status Indians have now joined status Indians on an equal footing.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 09:23 AM

Thanks Charmion. I enjoyed reading your thoughts on logistic difficuulties. I expect it will be a few years before reserves march to military dicipline thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 11:12 AM

Dabit, I'm glad I entertain you but you have missed my point.

I was trying to indicate that it takes knowledge, skill and experience to manage a major project, such as maintaining a fleet of jet fighters or running a full-service community on a flood plain on the coast of Hudson Bay.

Discipline aside, this is work for professionals who understand how their support system functions (and doesn't), and know what in blazes they're doing on both the micro and macro levels. The armed forces prepare people for such assignments with literally years of education, training and work experience in staff appointments of gradually increasing responsibility -- and they still mess up.

First Nations administration? Not so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 03:05 PM

Haven't read a lot of the latest post but I will. I just posted on another thread. I wish they could be combined and the title of this thread changed to include "Idle No More". Here is my post on the other thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Native North Americans protest
From:gnu - PM
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 02:54 PM

BTW... been PMg and email back and forth with a nuber of people on this subject and I would like to post something.

The treaties are not being respected by the Canuck government (Cg). The Chinese are listening to the Natives on that issue. They will meet with with the Natives soon to discuss developement of natural resources.

Let that sink in fer a minute... more for some of you, I expect.

Now, her's something else few seem to understand. The Cg, well, Her Majesty The Queen in Right of Canada, pays ROYALTIES on the natural resources to the Natives (the dollars receieved by the Natives are NOT Canuck taxpayer dollars... they are ROYALTIES from resources and are property taxes which are actually RENT under British common law because NOBODY OWNS LAND under British Common Law EXCEPT the Royals and they don't OWN THE RIGHT TO THE LEASE of it in Canada UNLESS they respect the treaties - ya don't pay yer rent, ya lose yer property. It's BRITISH COMMON LAW. Got that?). Now, if the Royals who signed the treaties don't honour those treaties it equals a breach of contract, a breach of the lease agreement, and the Natives can negotiate with the Chinese to have the Chinese delevope resources in return for royalties.

That's it in a nutshell and I can't be arsed to prrof read that either, even tho not proofing my OP landed me in a state of apology early on in this thread.

As I said to one rather pissed off PMer, it's gonna be VERY interestind and actually fun to watch this shit play out. Only one problem will always exist... the whites have guns and they have used them in the past = he who has the gold rules.
*************************************************************

I am still waiting for a call from a buddy of mine on the march here in town today. I couldn't go because I had to take Mum to an appointment at 30 minutes before the march.

Oh... one other thing I said in PMs and in emails was... I do not support the red man and I do not support the white man... I support the right man. And for good reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 04:37 PM

I'm not convinced I misssed the point, Charmion. But then, how do you know what you don't see. There's little point in repeating everything you said, else we might end up with argumentative threads on Mudcat. We wouldn't want that.

I even appreciate what you said in this last message because you write specifics and you speak from experience, which few people have. Sounds like you might be useful to northern communities. So thanks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 04:49 PM

I have seen that it takes a high level of knowledge, skill and experience to do jobs like housing maintenance on reserves. Like renovations everywhere, skills need to do the work require more than training. Band management may need better than average quality systems to ensure the work done by new tradespeople in and from their communities succeeds.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:50 PM

Special Rapporteur on Indigenous Issues James Anaya denied visa

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 09:30 AM

The courts don't support harper's scatological smearing

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 10:54 AM

Interesting article, Dabit, although I take issue with the descriptor you chose to characterize Mr Harper's approach to the Attawapiskat issue.

Our Prime Minister can be a real shit when he puts his mind to it, but his smears are not scatological. In fact, his attacks are effective because they carefully target Joe Lunchbox's natural fear for his pocketbook.

Do note the source, however. As an opposition Member of Parliament, the Honourable Carolyn Bennett has a large, toothy dog in this fight. I wonder what her real focus is: the welfare of First Nations communities, or the fortunes of the Liberal Party of Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:42 PM

We all have biases, Charmion. However, the right wing press reported the same court findings. This link happened to be a convenient one that I found on a facebook page this morning, one of the many pages where you can find articulate people, mostly women, concerned about the environment, First Nations' rights, and that wily Attawapiskat woman standing up to vicious gangs of Harpers' henchmen.

Federal courts are likely loaded with Harper appointments from his previous minority governments, so their judgment could be important. Harper would never have done anything to make life worse for people suffering on reserves. He would never play politics with his ego.

And you don't think Harper's office spoon-feeds Anal Levant his Ex-lax?   

INM

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:52 PM

Good points Charmion.

I would also add that the ruling related to the federal appoint ment of a third party manager, during the housing crisis last fall, and not the subsequent audit of this First Nations spending which made the news a few days ago. The court ruled the federal action was unreasonable under the terms of the management agreement with this First Nation, for a number of reasons (such as, there was not adaquate information to do this against the agreement, it only made matters worse, and there were other options). We now know that this action only increased tension versus improve the situation.

The article indices the judge was careful not to put the blame on any politician. The CBC article says "the judge said there is no evidence to support the accusations from critics that Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Duncan and other cabinet members acted in a reprehensible way, and said the problem in this case lies not "at the feet of the political masters, but in the hands of the bureaucracy."

There is a link to a more reliable (IMO) CBC article in the posted article. CBC Article on the ruling

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:57 PM

BTW,Charmion - that CBC article I just provided was in a link in the first paragraph of the article posted on the liberal politician Carolyn Bennet's article.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 03:48 PM

I have to confess a bias against politicians -- Liberal, Conservative, New Democrat, Communist, Rhinoceros, you name it. They all bring me out in a rash. It's a weakness, I know. I'll do penance some other day.

I would hate to be a judge in any case that deals with aboriginal rights or First Nations administration these days. There are so many structural problems that the court can't touch that there's just no way to be equitable in any given case without risking a rapid-fire appeal and immediate reversal.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 04:48 PM

I share that distrust of politicials Charmion, and I include Aboriginal politicians in that distrust (but, surely not the Rynos).

I suspect many, if not all, on this site have a genunine interest in bettering the plight of the people dieectly impacted by centuaries of poor and unjustified treatment. But, it did not happen overnight, regardless of who is pointing fingers at each other today, for whatever political gain.   

However, my hope is it that (with my fingers crossed), and against the odds, real progress is made and the right thing is done to provide a better life and future for our fellow citizens of Canada's First Nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 05:08 PM

Charmion, (sorry, someone came to the door and I pressed submit before I completed my post).

Every once and awhile "a great leader" emerges to solve complex issues. Even though folks may try and "make" or "wish" for one today none is present on any side (if there are, or should be, sides) to do that job.

Hopefully, those who are in the discussions,(who comne from a variety of perspectives and pressures) can put aside their "differences", political desires, and "big egos" to work for better lives and futures for the First Nations Peoples - who deserve a much more in such a plentiful Country. Would they wish for less for themselves and their own children?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 05:09 PM

That "threat" is very real. War is war. And the Natives can easily enforce that threat if they are not dealt with fairly. Perhaps all the treaty bullshit will finally be dealt with. It's not been "doable" for Natives before. A pipeline allows that and The Hair can't ignore it anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 05:15 PM

Hopefully, all realize what is at stake from the many associated aspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 05:42 AM

From Grand Chief Derek Nepinak (video of speech in link below): "We're not requesting the prime minister to agree with us, we're *demanding* that he agree with us, We're demanding he agrees with us because we have the power. We have the true power as in the expression of love for one another, love for the land that we come from and we've got the geography covered. The Idle No More movement across the territories that we call Canada goes from coast to coast to coast, and it has broken through the Medicine Line, into the United States and around the world. The Idle No More movement *has* The People. It has the people and the numbers that can bring the Canadian economy to its' knees.It can stop prime minister Harper's resource development plan and his billion dollar plan to develop resources in our Ancestral Territories. We *have* the Warriors that are standing up now, that are willing to go that far." - Grand Chief Derek Nepinak (Grand Chief of The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs)

Video of speech:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9qrL7tVr9U&feature=youtu.be

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 06:10 AM

I remember both Saddam Hussain saying something similar.

When politicians start to make threats they sound like schoolboys trying to outdo each other. My dad's bigger than your dad. Well, my dad's a policeman. Well...

I wonder if they realise how ridiculous they sound. Instead of threatening to bring Canada to it's knees surely a positive rhetoric would be better all round? As part of what I said earlier - Just look at what was achieved by the IRA once the threats stopped and the negotiations began.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 07:06 AM

National Post Comment-Michael Den Tandt

Are First Nations willing to trade subsidy for self-rule-Tasha Kheiriddin.


Tim Harper-Tim Harper: No excuse for inaction at aboriginal meeting

No Excuse for inaction

Canada First Nations chiefs threaten to boycott meeting with Harper unless he comes to them-National Post
?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 08:35 AM

Letter to Harper from Mohawk Nation at Kahnawake

Prime Minister of Canada Stephen Harper
Office of the Prime Minister
80 Wellington
Ottawa On K1A 0A2

January 9, 2013

"The Mohawk Nation at Kahnawà:ke of the Haudenosaunee Six Nations Confederacy, proclaim the following position on behalf the People of the Longhouse, our citizens, and most importantly on behalf of our future generations.

We have watched with great concern the efforts of your current government of Canada to initiate and pass legislation that breaches the long standing nation-to-nation and government-to-government relationship between our two governments.

This action by Canada is a continuation of a centuries old policy and strategy to eliminate Indigenous governments as the original governments with whom the Crown has entered into treaty relations. There is an erroneous assumption on the part of Canada that they have been granted the authority to legislate over our nations and
peoples – nothing could be further from the truth.

This assault on our sovereignty and inherent rights as the original governments of this continent began with the invasion. As a colonial government Canada entered into agreements to steal the lands and resources; and implemented the racist Indian Act and other policies to assimilate Indigenous peoples. This assault was further compounded
by the 1924 revision of the Indian Act that was used to overthrow original Indigenous governments and replace them with band councils.

Be aware that the Band Councils and the AFN do not speak for the Haudenosaunee or any other traditional government situated on this side of Turtle Island.

We view what is now occurring through the actions of Canada to pass the following bills:

Bill C-38 Omnibus Act #1 Environmental Destruction Act
Bill C-45: Omnibus Act #2 Fisheries, Navigable Waters, FN Land Designation
Bill C-27: First Nations Financial Transparency Act
Bill C-428: Indian Act Amendment and Replacement Act

2
Bill S-2: Family Homes on Reserves and Matrimonial Interest or Rights Act
Bill S-6: First Nations Elections Act
Bill S-8: Safe Drinking Water for First Nations
Bill S-212: First Nations Self-Government Recognition Bill as the final steps in their efforts to erase any semblance of Indigenous nationhood and government from this continent.

From the outset of our international relations with colonial governments we have insisted on the principle of non-interference into the internal affairs of either party. This principle is described as a canoe and a ship travelling together on the same river, in the same direction, each holding their own way of government and their citizens. And most importantly, neither party doing anything that would disrupt the ways-of-life contained in those vessels.

After a time our ancestors warned us that we would see a day when the newcomers would try to "throw things into our canoe and try to sink it". That day came with the passage of the original Indian Act and now we see all of the other "things" they are attempting to throw into our canoe.

We have always resisted these attacks on our sovereignty and inherent rights, and even if Canada passes these bills we will resist these efforts.

It needs to be widely understood, that treaties simply regulate relations between nations and governments. That relationship between our Nation and the Crown has always been an on-going attempt to achieve peace between our governments and peoples.

What Canada is doing today does not further the value of peace.

What is and has always been of utmost importance is the preservation and protection of our inherent rights. The sovereignty of a nation and a people is such an inherent right.

Along with sovereignty, comes our inherent right of authority and jurisdiction. All of which we have never relinquished.

We will continue to urge all efforts of the Indigenous people to make the world aware of the dishonesty and deceit of Canada until there is clear change in government policy towards Indigenous Nations."

Signed by the Clan Mothers at Kahnawake:
Kanatishon Glenda Deer (Bear Clan)
Kawennahente Lynne Norton (Wolf Clan)
Kahtehronni Iris Stacey (Turtle Clan)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 02:55 PM

DtG... "I wonder if they realise how ridiculous they sound."

Not the case. They can deny the pipeline and they can deny the delivery of electricity from the hyrdoelectric dams... one way or another. War is war and these people are fighting for their rights, their way of life and for their lives.

Say it again... both sides have to wake up and do their jobs. The greed and corruption must stop. None of that shit does either side any good. (No, I ain't gonna discuss any of it... research it yourself.)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 06:03 PM

Gnu - The point is that numerous people from Hussein to the Taliban have threatened to bring the west to it's knees. None of them have succeeded. Which is why threats sound so ridiculous coming from so called grown-up politicians.

As you say, none of this shit does either side any good. They should learn from how others have moved from a culture of confrontation to one of reconciliation with amazing results. And I don't believe for one minute that if precious power were denied the government and it affected the US as well that such a protest would last long. Do you?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 06:05 PM

Just tried this and it did nay work. Try again.

200! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 08:12 PM

Idle No More Protests Continue Across Canada - (some lovely photos in here)


The Guardian - Canada's Indigenous People Are Demanding a Better Deal

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 12:11 AM

"The point is that numerous people from Hussein to the Taliban have threatened to bring the west to it's knees."

Ed, you seem to be thinking linearly and narrowly, no offence. Neither that real-dead mf nor the Taliban said that. What they did say is that the west would 'be brought to its knees'. Neither said by whose hands. So far, the west is doing a good job bringing ITself to its knees.

"To regard the fundamental as the essence, to regard things as coarse, to regard accumulation as deficiency, and to dwell quietly alone with the spiritual and the intelligent -- herein lie the techniques of Tao of the ancients."

One man in a shit hole of a house tied up American intelligence for ten effin years. Yippee, he's dead, and yea for SEAL Team Six. So, what was the cost? One hundred million in direct costs and another thousand millions in ancilliary costs and another ten times that in real cash? Fuckin' spare me. Could have been taken care of with $50,000 years back--2000-2004.

Ain't my money, so really I don't give a shit, and it wasn't yours either, but the game goes on, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 03:37 AM

It was me Bruce - Not Ed. But the point is, surely, not how they are saying it but the fact that it is a threat? That is the point I am trying to make anyway. No ammount of posturing or sabre-rattling is worth once ounce of round the table peace talks.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 03:40 AM

Yes, 'twas I. Must remember that the downstairs computer gets cleared of cookies on a daily basis!

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 07:51 AM

Sorry, Ed. Thanks, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 07:55 AM

The point IS that they should not even be having to do this in the first place. They have *tried* sitting round tables. Sadly, it has got them nowhere...

It is NOT their fault that they have been lied to for centuries. Take it up with those who have done the lying.


Taken from the Guardian link, above.

"....Many claim that the best route for indigenous people is to assimilate and to be "just like every other Canadian." But since the 15th century nothing has worked, and indigenous peoples are fed up of being told what to do, where to do it and how to do it. The imprint of colonialism has left land claims, treaty negotiations, reserve infrastructure, indigenous poverty, and indigenous education equality in total disarray. Let's not even mention the intergenerational impact of the residential school system, which forcibly removed indigenous children from their homes and stripped them of their language and culture and left many vulnerable to physical and sexual abuse....."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/11/canada-indigenous-people-demand-better-deal

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 09:01 AM

No problem 999, but, it does not resemble a position I would put forward:)

As to Hussein and the Taliban (if they can, or should be lumped together), they surely have gotten the attention of alot of powerful people, (especially the USA) and cost them alot in many ways - and I suspect those costs will extend into tomorrow.

Unfortunately, Canada spent billions in initiatives related to these folks. These billions (IMO) could have been effective in solving some pressing problems at home,like the one at issue today.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 10:15 AM

I agree in part. We have been throwing money at it and it hasn't worked. We know there is a wrong taking place, as you, Liz, Dave, gnu, ollaimh and others have repeatedly pointed out. As we saw, the various problems on this or that reserve change from one reserve to another. I don't know how many reserves there are in Canada; couldn't even guess. The ten or so I've been on at one time or other were as different as each new town one goes to. And the 'problems' in each are just not the same. In short, there is not a single or 'one size fits all' solution. But one thing I do know: Indians ain't stupid. There are some fine minds in the mix but altogether too many young people being tossed on the scrap heap because management is so screwed up. Yes, the 'residential school system' run mostly by Anglicans and Catholics was abhorrent. I think many of us could tell stories we heard from elders about the gut-wrenching breakup of family units, one result of which is the inability of too many children to communicate, except at the most fundamental level, with their grand parents. One speaks their language and the other has a shaky grasp on English or French. I do not pretend to have the answers, but I do know I can be part of the solution by forcing my government to treat in good faith. This heavy-handed and illegal crap forced through by the Conservatives in C-38 and C-45 is disgusting legislation. I may not be my brother's keeper, but goddammit we share the same canoe, and let there be no mistake about that. Many Indian people have pointed out that these Bills are detrimental to ALL of us. This country should NOT be for sale to the fucking oil companies, the Chinese, De Beers. This place does NOT belong to us to sell. We keep it for our kids and their kids. We have found a clear path to screw up the most beautiful country in the world, bar none. We need to slam the door on that kind of thinking, or our children will slam the door on their memories of us. I can't say I'd blame them.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:05 AM

It is not hard to find problems anywhere, 999. But, it's much harder to find the solutions, and even harder to get people to agree to them and how they can be resolved (even on this site).

I believe the native groups have done a good job at drawing public and government awareness and attention to their plight. However, IMO, it is time to put equel attention to defining an accomplishable solution. Maybe a "one size fit's all" solution is not an answer. But, if not, it is up to those directly involved to focus and define the solutions, unless they want others to do that for them (which has not seemed to have been very productive in the past).

While I expect public sympathies lies with resolving these issues for those in the native communities, such support can be "fickle", and be just as easily lost. My perspectiv is it is in the best interests of the native community to focus on bridging the internal divides (which exist for some of the reasons you state)and come forward with reasonable solutions and a process to initiate them.

As often stated, many of the problems go back many years. So, it is unlikely that making progress to resolve them all will likely not happen over-night. But, that does not mean there can not be a current focus on the more urgent in the short term and longer term plan to tackle the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:10 AM

Gotcha, and I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:26 AM

""Gotcha, and I agree""
Earlier you referred to a folk song for a message.
I refer to the lyrics of one for a message also:



Turn! Turn! Turn! (to Everything There Is a Season)
by The Byrds

To everything - turn, turn, turn
There is a season - turn, turn, turn
And a time for every purpose under heaven...

...A time to gain, a time to lose
A time to rend, a time to sew
A time to love, a time to hate
A time of peace, I swear it's not too late!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM

But, it's much harder to find the solutions, and even harder to get people to agree to them and how they can be resolved

Spot on, Ed. And at the risk of sounding like a stuck record just use history to see which methods pay off and which don't. Threats and terrorism have never done as well as reconcilliation and peace.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM

999
In an early post in this thread, I questioned if the current native movement had defined "success", and would recognize the opportunity for success when it was at hand. I still have that question.

Hopefully, the personal gratification of being part of "the group effort" does not overtake the original reasons for it occuring and identifying and seizing the best opportunity for success for themselves, when it raises its head. There are indeed issues that go beyond the native issues, and likely sympathies for the plight of other Canadians. IMO, a first priority shoul be to take care of their own issues, and there will be opportunities to support others with their issues when that is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:44 AM

DTG,
I am not sure I agree with your historic assessment.

Sometimes, the threat (and fear) of agressive actions alone moves "the center" (and those in power) towards a resolution and creates new opportunities for others, those open and well-positioned to a new (and peaceful) avenues towards a solution. However, I agree that it is indeed rare for governments to voluntarily directly "cave in" to terrorists or those threating such actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 11:57 AM

Good question, Ed. I think when Spence started her hunger strike--define it how you will--her idea was to get Harper and the GG to meet with native leaders. In that she was successful. However, many others folks got involved and brought with them their agendas. I haven't read any news today but I expect the same 'reporters' will be spinning what they saw, heard, think or wish to propound. Too many cooks . . . We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 12:01 PM

999
I have always have had an interest in approaches that obtain social change.

With this interest, a few years back I met a retired government official, one who had a lead government role in dealing with a major social uprising on an issue. I questioned him on how it evolved, his role and how it ended up.

He said that major public protests, that got "big media attention" was actually useful to the government. I was surprised and asked him how that could be. He said that people focusing on publically protesting took the energy out of the movement and once it "petered out" (those involved were comforted that they had, done something that seemed significant on TV) there was little energy and focus left for the actual negotiations. He said, those reduced pressures left us "government folks" with more "wiggle room" to initiate less severe measures with the movement leaders.

That conversation has remained with me, and the message that sometimes, what seems to be happening may not be what is occuring at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 11:40 AM

omnibus bill

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 01:55 PM

The CBC website has an interesting story about Matthew Coon Come's advice to Chief Spence; in effect, be careful to make demands that the government can grant without losing too much face. Insisting on the active participation of the Governor General is not one of those demands, for it would cause constitutional angst that will draw attention away from the First Nations' primary agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 04:26 PM

CBC
Quebec Grand Chief calls on Spence to end hunger strike

CTV
mulcair-calls-on-spence-to-end-hunger-strike

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 05:43 PM

At this point Spence can ask, "In exchange for what?"

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 06:05 PM

Settlements like Attawapiscat can exist only with government handouts and royalty payments, much of which is mis-spent and is not accounted for.
Nothing they can make, sell or produce can pay for the housing, schools, health care and other infrastructure needed to keep them viable.

The solutions are unpopular, but must be faced by the peoples of these outlying settlements and the government.

I think, however, the muddling along will continue despite the rhetoric and stunts like the so-called hunger strike. Calls on the British crown are nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 06:12 PM

""At this point Spence can ask, "In exchange for what?""

IMO, it is puzzling that Spence seems to be stuck on the notion that the Govenor General (appointed by Harper to representing the Queen) actually has political power and influence in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 06:36 PM

For argument's sake, let's say, the government in power, through direct negotiations with the Assembly of First Nations (the only group that seems to have any chance of representing all the groups), agreed to deal with all the demands derectly related to Native issues (even giving them special consultation provisions on enviromental issues impacting their lands). I suspect that even this may not satisfy Spence, and some of her supporters. Nor would it satisfy many within the "Idle No More" movement (well, at least as stated in the attached article) - which seem to go far beyond demands related to native issues. The movement, made up of a variety of interests, some from beyond native ones, seems to be challenging the current elected majority government's right to govern. Can that element be sustainable, once if the native isues are on tract to some form of solution?


idle-no-more-co-founder-supports-spence-not-blockades

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 10:51 PM

You might like this one, Charmion.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 06:58 AM

Har, har, Dabit.

Yes indeed, the federal government flings money around like sailors on a Friday night on Barrington Street. Drunk sailors know what they're doing at some level and sober up eventually, however; governments, well, not so much.

Pot and kettle, pot and kettle.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:05 AM

That really is how to get back at them :-) Thanks for the link and the laugh, Dabit.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:35 AM

Two different perspectives from topday's news:


Winnipeg Free press

Michael Harris

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:51 AM

Other perspectives:


Hill Times

National Post


From the Globe and Mail (this paper does not link well)

Harper needs to stay the course in winter of native discontent JOHN IBBITSON

The Globe and Mail
Monday, Jan. 14 2013,

Public support for the Harper government in the weeks ahead will hinge on how well it handles the native protests that threaten to escalate this week.

Thus far, the Conservatives have gotten the big things right, by ignoring peaceful demonstrations and engaging with the responsible leadership in order to marginalize extremists. That is about what Canadians expect from their government at times like this.

The militant tendency within the native movement is vowing a day of action Wednesday that could block roads, bridges and rail lines in Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and elsewhere. There are other protests planned for Jan. 28, when Parliament resumes.

The opposition parties have already staked their ground: The native protests, they maintain, are rooted in centuries of injustice compounded by Conservative intransigence.

"It is not a comedy of errors but it's a tragedy of errors that we find ourselves in this situation today," Interim Liberal Leader Bob Rae maintained. Both the NDP and Liberals insist Mr. Harper must deal swiftly and substantively with native claims.

But public expectations are low. Last summer, Nanos Research and the Institute for Research on Public Policy produced a study that rated major issues by two criteria: how important a policy challenge was to the public, and how confident the public was that government could meet the challenge.

First nations issues ranked at the very bottom in both public importance and in public confidence that government could make things better.

While the Idle No More Movement and Chief Theresa Spence's hunger strike may have increased the importance of native issues for most Canadians, it is unlikely they are any more confident that anything can be done. Mr. Nanos described that attitude as a sense of "public-policy futility."

Of course the Harper government is, like all governments, most interested in keeping its own supporters onside. The Conservative coalition consists, in part, of rural voters in Ontario and voters in the West apart from downtown Vancouver. These voters tend to be impatient with native demands for greater control over land and resources.

The other part of the coalition consists of suburban immigrant voters in Ontario. Most of them come from places such as India, the Philippines and China, which also suffered colonial oppression. They are themselves the children of the dispossessed.

While they may empathize with native Canadians, most immigrant Canadians are willing, even eager, to integrate into Canadian society. It would hardly be surprising in that case if they had only limited empathy for native claims to land and sovereignty, and little sense of collective responsibility for the poverty on many reserves.

Remember: There are roughly 370,000 first nations living on reserves. About 250,000 immigrants, almost all from non-European societies, arrive in Canada every year. Time is not on the natives' side.

Mr. Harper also knows that he faces a divided opposition. Native leaders who are unhappy with National Chief Shawn Atleo's willingness to negotiate with the Harper government are challenging his leadership of the Assembly of First Nations.

Again, politically, this works to the Prime Minister's advantage. If Mr. Harper can demonstrate that he takes native demands seriously and that he can and will work with Mr. Atleo and the AFN, then there will be little public sympathy for the militants.

The wild card is anarchy. If the chiefs opposing Mr. Atleo and the Idle No More activists escalate their demonstrations to the point where there is risk of violence or serious economic disruption, then the federal government will have to be firm in enforcing the rule of law.

But that is exactly the moment at which events can spiral out of control: Oka; the Dudley George shooting. Then no one can predict what will happen.

Short of that, if the Harper government stays the current course, then the Conservative coalition of support should hold and the government should emerge from this winter of native discontent in reasonable shape – politically, at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 11:19 AM

Looking at the Globe article…

Disregarding treaties with First Nations, telling them that we've destroyed you to the point that you are not important and that we will continue to overwhelm the remnants of your civilizations with immigrants now that we, aging Euro-descendants, have rusting gonads, appears to be closer to the problem than to an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 12:09 PM

"rusting gonads"

Defective easy-bake ovens is just as likely as factor for consideration, as Xy's shooting blanks. Regardless, what may seem to be rust from afar, may be a potent and reddish Viking or Irishman, on closer examination.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 02:24 PM

""I worked with Freud in Vienna. We broke over the concept of penis envy. Freud felt that it should be limited to women"". Movie quote, Leonard Zelig: Movie, Zelig

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 02:48 PM

> what may seem to be rust from afar, may be a potent and reddish Viking or Irishman, on closer examination.

Don't ask me to examine that red thing close up. I was thinking about our disfunctional relationships and apparatus - not blanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 03:08 PM

Just remember, rust never sleeps.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 03:44 PM

As to rust, red haired peoples, freckles and relationships (disfunctional or otherwise):

"In 999, the Viking king of Dublin, Sitric Silkenbeard, surrendered to Brian Boru. In 1014, High King Brian Boru of Munster defeated the allied army of the Vikings and the King of Leinster at Clontarf. Thus ends Ireland's Viking Era".

The Viking era ended in Ireland - (or did it?) No treaties were signed. But, the Viking "red" pumps in Irish veins. Viking "rust" never sleeps, in Ireland, or where the Irish roam.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 09:06 PM

Ed... red... Irish... Viking... Celt... now, there is a story about indigenous peoples trod upon. A thousand years old and as worth discussing as the story in this thread* but just saying that will get me in shit once again. Of course, I am used to it.

Scottei!

Slainte Mhath.

*Difference is, this thread is all about something that can be changed for the better TODAY. Too bad it gets bogged down in bullshit and granstanding by people who ain't got a fucking clue what they are yelling about and can't hear anyone else while they are yelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 09:25 PM

I thought that may awaken your Irish genie, gnu:)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 01:03 PM

"A new documentary by renowned filmmaker Alanis Obomsawin, The People of the Kattawapiskak River, exposes the housing crisis faced by 1,700 Cree in Northern Ontario. The dire situation led Attawapiskat's band chief, Theresa Spence, to ask the Canadian Red Cross for help. With the Idle No More movement making front page headlines, this film provides background and context for one aspect of the growing crisis. This film will stream free of charge until Friday, January 18, 2013."

The People of the Kattawapiskak River

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 03:04 PM

From CBC:Michaëlle Jean says Theresa Spence should end hunger strike
'We have a Third World in Canada, and it's with our aboriginal peoples,' Jean says ""Jean agreed there have been some encouraging initiatives, but said she's hoping that a "real dialogue" will come to fruition. She said Canadians must to be more aware of the situation. Instead of waiting for people to start protesting in the streets, the public must be more proactive. "It's not an aboriginal issue, it's a Canadian issue," she said.

As for the Idle No More movement, Jean said she was discouraged to see the situation become so chaotic.""

Canada's Former GG weighs in


Commentary from National Post (""Sen. Patrick Brazeau was born in Maniwaki, Quebec, and is a member of the community of Kitigan Zibi. A champion of the rights of aboriginal peoples, he worked with the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples (CAP) from 2001. He was was elected National Chief in February 2006, and re-elected to a four-year term in November 2008"").


From National Post

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 03:48 PM

Native people should have to account for money given them.

When Miss Spence was allowed to distribute $101,000,000 since 2007 and cannot account for 86% of it, why is she allowed to touch a single dollar more?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 06:00 PM

Mind you, the auditor-general has seldom had a good word to say for the way the Feds handle our exchequer. The chief of Ottawapiskat may be less trustworthy than the chief of Attawapiskat.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 07:43 PM

BTP, Most governments (provincial, federal and even municipalities) have an arms-length auditor-general (or similar) and a process to openly expose such spending flaws to those paying the bills - so they can be objectively considered and (hopefully) rectified at some point in time - or, in one manner or another.

My recollection is that the federal government in power responds to the AG report on such problems identified, with a plan to rectify them. Can you identify such a process in the Attawapiskat situation you refer to?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:24 PM

Excellent Al Jazeera video on Idle No More and Stephen Harper

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 12:42 PM

Anyone in the know got an update on what is actuialy going on? Been at it since before Chritmas now and the varous links being posted don't all agree :-( I would have thought with all the support for the Indians and the facebook pressure the Canadian government would have done something by now! A day is a long time in politics. This has been three weeks!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 01:50 PM

Shawn Atleo, the national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, has announced that his doctor has ordered him to take 10 days off to recover from exhaustion -- he's worn out from the round-the-clock talk and brinksmanship.
Harper and Atleo need each other by L. Ian MacDonald (Ottawa Citizen)

The Idle No More people are doing a "national day of action" with a blockade on the Canadian National Railway main line in Manitoba, demonstrations in Ottawa and other disturbances.
Idle No More protesters gather at busiest border crossing (CBC website)

Theresa Spence is still refusing solid food and, while some Aboriginal leaders -- notably Matthew Coon Come -- are asking her to stop, others are pleading with the Prime Minister to do what she wants.
Native women's leader pleads with Harper to meet Spence, end her protest by Heather Scoffield, Canadian Press (Ottawa Citizen)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:03 PM

DTG, In a nutshell, my read on it:

Spence is still on a hunger strike. No end in sight, though some notable personalities have asked her to end it.

PM Harper met with the elected national chief of the Assembly of First Nations and some chiefs (all were invited to also attend). Spence did not attend, mainly (IMO) because the Governor General indicated he would not be attending. Some chiefs supported Spence and did not attend the meeting (others indicated thay were not attending because they did not like the location, format etc). What seems to have came out of the meeting is an agreement to meet again to work on some of the issues. No one knows where this will go?

Some see the non-attendance by some chiefs at the meeting as a division in the First Nations unity. Others see it differently, including an indication of reduced support for the elected leader of the Assemblay of First Nations.

Govenor general did get together with Spence and some First nations leaders. But, it was not a meeting to resolve issues, as requested by Spence.

There was a day of peaceful protest (and initiative to increase the public awareness of issies) today in various locations accross Canada.

Some First nations people threatened initiatives to impact economic interests, if progress is not achieved.

There have been threats of more agressive protests, if progress is not made. Others seem to be trying to keep it peaceful and legal to retain public support..

Considering the number of First nations groups and interests, huge geography, and that many others are involved for a variety of reaseons (some direct and some indirect) there are big differences on issues and approaches to resolve them.

A key demand of the protesters and chiefs is for the Canadian government to back down on changes to environmental oversight in two recent omnibus bills. A government spokesman recently said that there are no plans to reconsider this legislation.

It is difficult to gauge the Canadian public mood (especially since the various elements, positions, broad demands and interests are confusing and hard for many to get a handle on. IMO, most support better living and economic conditions for First nations peoples, yet are frustrated in little action from spending to date (by the federal government and some native governments).

But, as you note - many different, and often opposing perspectives in the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:23 PM

A fractured aboriginal leadership hurts its own grassroots:


Tim Harper-Star

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 05:55 PM

Thanks Ed - Much appreciated and always good to get the news first hand as it were. Pretty much what I thought. Aggresive action will always lead to aggresive reaction. Looks like it may be the same here but the division amongst the aboriginal peoples is not doing them any good. I hope you were right when you said that the threats may at least move the centre and give a better negotiating base but I sadly doubt it.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:12 PM

dtg, the threats could move the centre and give a better negotiating base. That is if there is a vialbe centre remaining to negotiate with - I hope it will be so.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:44 PM

It is difficult to gauge the Canadian public mood...

Not mine. I am fuckin pissed. I have written everyone in my governments and told them that the bill must be immediately repealed as it is an affront to OUR environment.

I live here too. Generations have. And I ain`t goin ``home``. I am home. Natives don`t own the land... WE do. The Natives and their brothers that built this country. Not the government... not the Crown. They have shown they do not represent WE.

ONCE more... will the pipeline be builtÉ Yes. Can we make sure it get`s built properlyÉ Yes. How do we do thatÉ Repeal the bullshit law.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:05 PM

gnu,My observation is many are confused about what the Navigational Water Protection Act does, and never did.

Canada's Navigational Waters Protection act was never designed to protect the environment and had (has) zero provisions to do so to this very day - it was put in place "only" to protect navigation.

The only reason it had some impact on federal Environmental Assessments is because it often triggered a higher level assessment (with public input) for projects, when other focused environmental legislation (some also with archaic purpose) failed to trigger such a one. But, that does not mean the specific legislation that was designed to protect the environment was any stronger by this act.

Rather than "working against the existing grain" to repeal a piece of legislation that had no (or a marginal) impact on protecting the enviroment - would it not make more sense to strengthen the legislation that is directly designed to protect the environment? Or, an alternative approach may be to put new legislation that does a more focused (better) job?

I am puzzled as to why folks would take a non-direct and zig-zagged road to an end, versus a direct route that may have a more effective result.
This one beats me?

Some of the federal legislation directly designed to protect the enviroment include (but, this does not include them all) Fisheries Act (sections 33, 32 and 35), Canadian Environmental Assessment Act, Environmental Protection Act, Health Act, Species at risk Act.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 07:09 PM

Ed... I will let our Native brothers answer that.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 07:07 PM

Chief Spence to End Her Hunger Strike Tonight

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 03:58 AM

Speaking the Truth at long last....

Theresa Spence and Raymond Robinson Testimonies

The Hunger Strike of Chief Spence has brought out the Racists BIGTIME and they have put a Spotlight NOT on her, but on THEMSELVES. She's put up with one helluva lot of shite and it's deeply upset her, but that's the way Crooked Governments move, by *neutralizing* those who dare to stand against them, or who look as if they could start a Revolution.

Sadly, Harper's lost this one, for The Revolution is now Unstoppable and never again will Indigenous People allow themselves to be bullied and treated so appallingly...

They've found themselves again, at long last...and Chief Spence has played a huge part in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 05:27 AM

A recent poll, from the CBC we site on Canadian citizen's current views on the impact they see of of Spence's Hunger strike - only 17.8 per cent believing her hunger strike will advance the cause of aboriginal people.




From CBC

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 06:22 AM

Perspective-Comment on Spence - Jesse Kline: Declaration lets Spence save face, end protest after failing to secure meeting with PM and Governor General



National Post

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 07:19 AM

Some folks don't like Sun publications. Fine with me. But, IMO, this article puts forward an interesting perspective on the current situation:

Barbara Yaffe:Canada's First Nations need to learn modern lobbying and stop alienating possible allies.

Lack of unity destroys aboriginal negotiating power

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 08:04 AM

Despite its name, the Vancouver Sun is not a Sun Media paper, but an ex-Southam paper now under the Post Media umbrella along with such august organs as the Ottawa Citizen. It retains its traditional centrist political orientation, with the occasional twitch to left or right depending on the prevailing wind of public opinion.

That said, I think Barbara Yaffe has a point.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 09:24 AM

Uh, yep!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 10:27 AM

This article in yesterday's Calgary Herald tells a succinct story with many details of one example of Canada's failure to uphold its treaty obligations.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 07:03 PM

This, most certainly, has been made with Love!   


Idle No More - Bullet Proof

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 08:35 PM

I uderstand those poll results, Ed but maybe with a different viewpoint than some. First of all, ya can't point a gun at the man with a bigger gun. Secondly, ya can't threaten someone and then back down. Doesn't matter the reasons, it all goes to shit if ya can't or don't back it up.

I PMd a lot with a number of Mudcatters about "all this" recently and in one of those PMs to one Mudcatter I pondered why there were not HUNDREDS of native lawyers. Indeed, free education surely should promote such? What natives need to enforce the treaties is LOTS of lawyers... not idle threats that have no chance of gaining anything more than media coverage, SOME sympathy from the general public that really do not know how natives have been so poorly treated for centuries and continue to be downtrodden by the "system" (yes, yet again, on BOTH sides) and evoke essentially lip service from the lackies of the big corporations when the idle threats are called.

I may take shit for that but that is the reality. Bravo to the whole works... for what it's worth. But it ain't gonna do SFA in the long run except gain a bit more the haves while the have nots get shafted on both sides.

Now, having said that, if all of this influenced the non-status rights case... YEEHAWWWW! But I still say, a shitload a good lawyers woulda won that one anyway. YMMV.

Why can't Canada turn out 100 native lawyers per year... fer a start?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 08:46 PM

""First of all, ya can't point a gun at the man with a bigger gun. Secondly, ya can't threaten someone and then back down. Doesn't matter the reasons, it all goes to shit if ya can't or don't back it up.""

Je comprends pas,désolé, gnu

What does that have to do with a poll on Canadians views on the questions asked? I am puzzled? Please explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 09:03 PM

It means that I interpret those reults as saying that the movement was viewed by most of those polled as ineffective because the movement was viewed as futile against the man with the bigger gun and more lawyers. Which is the way all us have nots feel when we face the government alone. Guns are not an option in Canada (near as the general public knows). Lawyers are. Money and lawyers are best. They can have both and I wish they would get at it and get the job done... in a reasonable fashion. BOTH sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 09:05 PM

Canada has lots of Aboriginal lawyers. In fact, several law schools run special programs for First Nations students. Of course, they have to be qualified academically, which means that only the 1% of the 1% of Aboriginal youth get a look-in.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 11:03 PM

On Jan.8 I posted a comment about rabbit tracks. That is a truth that has held throughout this protest, as it has lacked focus from the start! It raised many legitimate issues but Chief Spence's stand leaves unanswered questions. Was it all to divert attention from scandal in her own administration? God knows that adject poverty on reservations is a national disgrace but how can chiefs and band councils absolve themselves of blame? How can chief Spence look to be in such good shape after a six week hunger strike? How much salary ( tax free) did Chief Spence earn while her people went cold and hungry?
I grew up in a community that was more than 50% native and I can relate to many whom I consider friends and I want to see them prosper, but I have trouble turning a blind eye to what I view as abuse as well.
I certainly don't have all, or even many of the answers, but I am a bit dismayed by folks from somewhere else who feel that they know it all!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: ollaimh
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 11:06 PM

any thread that mentions north american natives brings out the racist attackers in droves. many even most claim to love their brothers, but you rarely see them go on the attack with personal insults and illogical comments except when natives get mentioned.

to this day the united states and canada remain among the wealthiest nations on earth with the ability to solve most problems of unequal access to education houseing and security for natives and they do nothing. but people never miss the opportunity to attack natives.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: ollaimh
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 02:30 AM

the system of government for band councils imposes colonial "elected" native chiefs to get rid of traditional chiefs. traditional chiefs don't do what they are told by the government, while those imposed by the indian act usually do. especially since they are elected dictators rather than just one vote on council. with department of indian affiars spobsorship most ciiefs do what the government wants and have no effective limits on monetary abuse, that aghain serves the government as when a chief raises embarrasing issues then the government attacvks them for monetary inproprities that the goovernment set up in the first place. the band councils need a major over hai=ul in their constitutions but the federal governmant will not let that happen as they usually win in the game of otiing elected chiefs against traditional leader and creating corruption. the end game is losing because the supremem court of canada has again and again ruled in favour of native rights. they believe in the rule of law and can't keep up the inequality before the law forever. but its a slow process, as natives have to go to the supreme court every time to get rights. settlements almost never happen without a the highest court ruling. the fact that those ruling have almost always gone against the government sinc3 we extended legal rights to natives in the 1970's show that the canadian government has bargained in bad faith throughout.

they are stalling on the ultimate world wide conformation that this was genocide. each government want to leave that for the next. only paul martin was willing to bring in a comprehensive settlement, starting with the kelowna accord,and to fund that accord to the tune of six billion dollars and canadian voted against the only comprehensive attempt at justice in canadian history.

we can never tell out children we tried to solve these probblems. paul martin can say he tired but the rest of youn out there sat on your hands and voted for a 2 % sales tax reduction and the largest deficits in canadian history rather than fiscal responsibility and historic social justice.

the nit picking agains spence is just more mud slinging to cover up and spin that cnada is founded on genocidal injustice(like america and the uk)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 05:53 AM

"but the rest of youn out there sat on your hands and voted for a 2 % sales tax reduction and the largest deficits in canadian history"

You have absolutely NO idea how I voted you sanctimonious prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 06:45 AM

Sorry ollaimh, regardless of personal viewpoints on issues, or where you come from, posters have to "earn respect", it does not come for free.

IMO, your previous provocative statements,"frequent" lack of posting etiquette and basic "niceness" to some others on here negates any statements you make to defend like-thinking folks. I have an idea, to be taken seriously consider "practicing what you preach"?


Thought for the day:
"prejudice is prejudice, regarding of where it comes from"

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 07:21 AM

Peering into the abyss of First Nations neglect-Ottawa Citizen

From APTP National News
notes taken by Assembly of First Nations staff during the meeting between Harper

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 01:52 PM

The media- and most Canadians- are tired of that woman and her fast.
No reserve has wasted more money than her reserve; last audit showed 60 percent not accounted for.

Some reserves have no resources to support their people; perhaps they should be consolidated, or at least have their finances controlled by government agencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 05:46 PM

wonderfly? GREAT new word! ;0)

Wonderful, of course....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 06:44 PM

Despite the fact that Chief Spence entered the fray with a poor game-plan, she has awakened many Canadians (and Americans) to the plight of Indians in Canada. I applaud her for that and have argued so on various newspaper sites--under my own name, ollaimh.

You ever have the balls to come see me, do that. My address is no secret.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 06:44 PM

From last night's CBC TV broadcast:


CBC panel discussion on Spence

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 07:21 PM

Well said, 9. I agree that Chief Spence has done a good thing. The rest of it should be left between her, her people, her elders, her spirit and the PM (yes, the PM DOES count in all this no matter what anyone says... it's common knowledge and common sense).

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 07:41 PM

IMO, Spence has indeed helped raise public awareness of both the native plight and the native community governance failures. Unfortunately,IMO, much of this positive awareness (in Canada, where it counts) was shared amongst the "already convinced".

Again, unfortunately, many Canadians see Spence as a representative of the native communities inability to manage it's own affairs and finances, which reinforces the long-held (and IMO< inaccurate) negative sterotypes of the native community (IMO, Ibelieve the polls support that).

On a downside, I see her stubborn "longer than productive" campaign as helping to divide the native Canadian leadership (when solidarity was needed) than uniting it. Time will tell if this is a "good thing, or a bad thing" over the long term.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 09:59 PM

Ed, the Native Canadian leadership has been a political debacle for many years before Teresa's stage appearance. To think otherwise is to ignore the Number Treaties and the concomitant fallout. ollaimh's remark about traditional chiefs is accurate, although that in itself provides no relief to Native communities. One has but to look at Assumption--a Slavey reserve in Alberta's north--to see the truth in that.

BTW, ollaimh, I apologize for my earlier remark about being here on Mudcat for longer than you. I wasn't.

Ed: I'm aware that most Canucks are POed at Chief Spence's hunger fast. What most folks don't know is that fish broth was a food people ate when absolutely necessary.

1) It tastes like shit
2) It has little nutrition in it
3) It was only ever eaten in hunger times

I think too many people--mostly non-Native people are disappointed that she didn't die, like somehow that would have validated what she did. What she did was validated and supported when five Mohawk women from Kahnawake went to pass on their hands, hearts and souls.

As a White with a half Indian family, I do not give a rat's ass what Canadians think. In fact, we wouldn't care what people think about us if we knew how seldom they did.

I appreciate your views because you are a smart man with well-considered views. I'm fortunate to have people like you in my life. Yes, we argue, but when tomorrow comes we will awake to a new sunrise and a new day.

Liz doesn't need to be patronized. She is a tough cookie with a great heart. I argue with her more than with anyone else here. She is squaky, loud and sometimes a pain, but after reading and sometime re- and re-reading her posts it's easy for me to see she means it and will stand up to anyone about what she thinks deserves redress.

gnu has history with Native peoples in New Brunswick, and he don't take shit from no one. He also has a heart bigger'n Alberta and a sense of humour that George Burns would have lit a cigar for.

ollaimh is adamant and dedicated to the cause of justice as it pertains to people--but specifically Indian people. He has spoken of the Clearances and I think the Famine, and of course the Residential school system which was and is a national disgrace in Canada.

Fact is, we all are not that far apart. It's just a matter of calm and peace, because we all know war just let's ya know who won, not who was right.

I neglected to mention you, Ed. I think you're brilliant both for your verve and your patience. You remind me of John on the Sunset Coast. I think it may be because of the oceans you live next to, because you know that for every wave that goes out another comes in.

OK, enough stuff from me.

Bruce Murdoch

---

Personal attacks edited out just now may make some of this exposition a bit vague. Best to let those bits go and move on in a productive direction. --mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 11:17 PM

Ditto on that Bruce!
I think that most of us here on the 'cat look at the world with a view toward fairness and equality. It is only on the means of reaching that goal that we often disagree.
I am not sure if some of ollaimh's earlier comments were directed at me but in any case I stand firm in my opinion that chief Spence's actions gained publicity for a justified cause but lacked focus on the goal.
ollaimh is a bit of an enigma but he seems to share an understanding of my heritage and I appreciate his contributions but not always his opinion. Lizzie also has a passion for a just resolution but I question her objective comprehension of the issues at hand. gnu is gnu and I consider him a friend although our paths have never crossed!
Such is the Mudcat but I hope in my heart that we can all disagree as friends!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 01:39 PM

Thank you, Bruce...
Squawk! ;0)

Liz xx

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 03:30 PM

Witch Hunt Claim rings Hollow:

Calgary Herald Editorial

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 04:12 PM

Thanks Bruce, to your credit, you have always seemed like a fair mided person to me.

Opinions are only opinions, no more, no less, and don't matter to how most issues evolve in the "real world'.

I also is reasonable that some folks aren't wired "to communicate well" with some some other folks, regardless of their personal attributes, or how they relate with other perple.

IMO, a best practices would be for people who are likely to conflict avoid each other as much as possible - but, I suspect thet is unlikely to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 04:43 PM

From Sandy: "..Lizzie also has a passion for a just resolution but I question her objective comprehension of the issues at hand.."

Erm....got a problem here, Sandy. I see in pictures and I don't have a picture for 'objective comprehension'. Do you mean you think I haven't a clue as to what's actually going on with Idle No More or Chief Spence?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 04:49 PM

Learn to read & comprehend the English language, Liz - I'm pretty sure Sandy's comment isn't restricted to only one of your many and ever proliferating crusades.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 04:52 PM

Ed... especially when they call me racist and it's unjustified.

Mudelf... thank for for deleting SOME of the unjustified posts with personal attacks and libel. It's a good start. I could ask you why you deleted responses to personal attack and not all of the personal attack posts but that wouldn't be prudent. I assume it is because the responses named an individual and the personal attacks which did not name individual(s) are, by definition, not "personal". Fair enough.

I'll stop there although I could comment further now that I understand how this particular game is being called.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 05:06 PM

Bruce....just thought I'd let you know, having just come across this in Facebook.




    Sunday, 27 January 2013
    [Time]
    13:00 until 18:00 in EST

[Where]
        
Centre Scalabrini de Montréal 655, est rue Sauriol Montréal Québec H2C 1T9
[Description]
        
This is an Peaceful, Respectful, All Ages Friendly Learning and Sharing Event :o)
Sunday January 27th 2013 at 1pm - 6pm
Venue:Centre Scalabrini de Montréal, 655, est rue SauriolMontréal (Québec) H2C 1T9, Téléphone: [phone]
***We are still looking to CONFIRM SPEAKERS. If you or someone you know is able to speak on Bill C-45, or any of the topics relating to Idle No More, please let me know :o) Thank you.

This event is for coming together in Solidarity, First Nations and Non, and learning about what is happening, how it affects us all and why we should all CARE.

Hoping to put together another hand-out with more information (still eco-friendly, still english, french and spanish translations). Speakers on even more facets of the Idle No More movement and why all Canadian, actually all World Citizens should care. More time for interaction and conversation during speaking portion of the event. etc...

Let everyone you know what an incredible event the last one was and bring them with you to this next one. All together, let's make it even better!

Hoping to find more help/confirmation with the following:
- Video recording and translation. (including traslators at the event - enlish/french/spanish - and can anyone sign???)
- Getting the event online (live)
- Donations for poster and handouts - goal to print 1000 copies of program/pamphlet this time (eco friendly of course)
- OFFLINE ADVERTISING for event - so people know about it before, not after.
- Student and other groups to hand out (one by one) feathers with attached info about event/Idle No More. (will be ongoing for all Montreal Teach-In events for Idle No More) - supplies, donations, assembly, handout.

Also hoping for (even more) drummers/singers/dancers arrive for some fabulous sharing.

Join and Invite Friends, Family, Colleagues,... The more who know, the more will come. The more that come, the more who will know. And on, and on, and.... ;o)

*IF you can't make it but wish you could... click 'maybe' and then invite all your fb friends ;o)

THANKS:
To everyone who joined in the first Montreal Teach-In event to make it such a wonderful success. And thank you to all those who will share in making this event equally incredible :o)

Respect and Solidarity.
Resilience and persistence!

If you have any questions; or would like to stay updated on events I am planning and or involved with, please contact me via fb
facebook.com/moonlightentity
or via email
[e-mail]
(nb emails sent to [e-mail] will , right now, get lost in a flurry of activity. For this event please use the one given above. Thank you.)

I think Canadians are, person by person, a good, compassionate and loving people, and I do believe, that while so many of us have, remained utterly unaware until recently, once we know better, we will, do better.

This, Third World Living Conditions, Inherent and Human Rights abuses, Extreme oppression and what has been called an attempt at eradication of not just one but many Nations of People's is NOT
MY Canada!!!

We are a patient and forgiving People, us Canadians,
but the time has come.
Let us stand together in Solidarity to say Out Loud,

We will be, Idle No More.

Thank you to everyone making efforts to be heard right now, gratitude :o)

Information Links

- Idle No More
idlenomore.com

- On Facebook
Idle No More - Quebec Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/466954116690346/?fref=ts
Idle No More - Official Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Idlenomore.official/?fref=ts
JRockman Art
facebook.com/moonlightentity

On Twitter
@Idlenomore
@IdleNoMoreNews
@ChiefTheresa
@Pam_Palmater
@JRockmanArt

On Youtube
Chief Theresa Spence - Interview December 2012; 8 day into Hunger Strike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UQ4vMoeD2s
Chief Theresa Spence - Short Interview December 21st; middle of week two of Hunger Strike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjS721JeuUc
Nasa Nation in Columbia, Rallying and declaring Solidarity with the Idle No More movement. Yes, this is, it's going worldwide!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTjU9oGl-Qg&feature=youtu.be
CBC At Issue - all agreeing?!? Yup!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjAdVjqOVZs&feature=share
*Video not on YouTube
CTV Chief Theresa Spence - Interview December 27th, 2012
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/12/27/stub-theresa-spence.html

UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People
http://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/home/global-indigenous-issues/un-declaration-on-the-rights-of-indigenous-peoples.html

Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms - Constitution Acts 1867 - 1982
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/index.html

Bill C-45
http://parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=5942521

Great Article (with additional links) showing how much and where about the $$, so we can know the truth!
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/chelsea-vowel/attawapiskat-emergency_b_1127066.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

Avaaz Community Petition
http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Chief_Theresa_Spence_help_end_her_Hunger_Strike/

Open Letter from Amnesty International asking Prime Minister Harper to meet with Chief Spence
http://www.amnesty.ca/news/open-letters/open-letter-urging-a-meeting-with-chief-theresa-spence
Open Letter from Marc Garneau asking Prime Minister Harper to meet with Chief Spence
http://marcgarneau.ca/an-open-letter-to-prime-minster-stephen-harper-let-our-words-not-be-empty/
Open Letter from The United Church of Canada asking Prime Minister Harper to meet with Chief Spence
http://www.united-church.ca/files/communications/news/general/121219_letter.pdf
Open Letter from the David Suzuki Foundation asking Prime Minister Harper to meet with Chief Spence
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/media/news/2012/12/david-suzuki-foundation-letter-of-support-for-idlenomore/
Open Letter from the Canadian Union of Postal Workers asking Prime Minister Harper to meet with Chief Spence
http://www.cupw.ca/multimedia/website/publication/English/PDF/2012/2012-12-17_ltr_Chief_Spence_E.pdf
*There are many more letters to be found out there (i.e. the Ontario Labour Federation; and the National Union of Public & General Employees), and many more being written every day, Please join them, and ask any businesses you deal with, organizations you're involved in, celebrities and/or media personalities you know to join in (yes, Roseanne Barr already tweeted Prime Minister Harper to meet Chief Spence about her concerns!), you can make a difference today.

An interesting little something from Pam Palmater
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/yahoo-exclusive-afn-runner-pam-palmater-accuses-pm-144833734.html

Go Ahead, email & CALL & WRITE Stephen Harper, let him know you want him to meet with Chief Spence:
House of Commons
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0A6
Telephone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
E-Mail: [e-mail]
altern email: [e-mail]

OR

1600 90th Avenue Southwest, suite A-203
Calgary, Alberta
T2V 5A8
Telephone: [phone] Fax: [phone]

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 05:21 PM

""Ed... especially when they call me racist and it's unjustified.""

Understood, and other disrestful personal attack terms used in a similar manner occasionally fly around. Hopefully, Mudcat editors take personal attacks from "anyone" (including everyone here) and "on any issue" more seriously. If they go unchecked,it often leas to others and are an affront to meaningful and interesting discussion (these situations frequently move from one thread to another). IMO, I can't see any benefit from that result, other than helping those out with bad intent?

It is telling that this issue has been the topic of another thread on people leaving BS lately.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 05:47 PM

Go Ahead, email & CALL & WRITE Stephen Harper, let him know you want him to meet with Chief Spence:

Too late ...

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 06:35 PM

Right, Ed.

And, now, I will not say another word about any of "that". Trust you won't either, Ed... or anyone else. This is an important thread (said it before) as are other threads and they should not be derailed by any idiots.

That wasn't personal... as I understand the rules... was it?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 07:00 PM

Lizzie, I have never implied that you don't have a clue and I don't appreciate you taking my comments out of context. This issue has many facets and there is no single one that is correct. Your postings seem rather fixated on a single facet that chief Spence is above reproach. Chief Spence has a long history that many of us in Canada are aware of. Our government deserves much of the blame and I certainly have no desire to defend them, but chiefs and band councils have long been picking the cherries out of the pie, leaving only the crust for the hungry! Somehow greedy band leaders must be left out of the solution if they are a part of the problem! All that being said people are in dire need of help and I only want to see that help reach where it is needed!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 09:45 PM

I'm glad that's cleared up.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:04 PM

"the constant name calling on this issue is just the smoke screen fo the ignorant bigoted racists"
I gotta remember that one...

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:11 PM

Och ollaimh, pog mo thon! Tha amadan mor fas orbh! A bheil thu tuig sin?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:31 PM

Please note that the three posts before this one were in response to a speech by ollaimh which has been deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 08:36 AM

No, it qwas not intended as personal, IMO, gnu. Just a general comment.

One problem is once "guns are up" (not gnu's) it does not take
much for someone (no one particular in mind) to misconstrue comments, and go gun'in (not gnu'ing) fer another folkie in one, or many threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 09:59 AM

There are many different perspectives, high energies, and alot to discuss on the best route to restore Canada's First Nations Peoples to their rightful place in Canada.

Unfortunately, recent events has "brought out" on the internet the minority of people in Canada who have racist views towards First Nations Peoples. I suspect these same people have simialr "racist" views towards many within Canada and the global community. While the comments (often annoymous) from these folks are truly hurtful to First Nations people, who have suffered so much throughout Canads's history (and, still do today). IMO, they only represent a minority of citizens. IMO again, I feel most Canadians are frustrated with the lack of progress towards bettering the plight of First nations Peoples for so many years. Because the cause of it is so complex, they often gravitate to "the easy to see cause and easy solution". Unfortunately, often "these easy solutions" do not represent a solution, at all.

IMO, people call others many things in the heat of a discussion. But, to call them "a racist" is a serious thing. IMO, racism is one of dirtist word in human history. It has caused much undue suffereng In Canada and world-wide. No nation, nor peoples, can honestly say that their history is free of this dirty word.

Why would anyone want to dilute the true meaning of the despicable word "racist" by using it so lightly and inappropriately against any person on Mudcat? Why not save the true meaning of this disgusting word for those people who clearly show they are are deviod of feeling or compassion for the plight of the First Nations peoples in Canada? IMO, this type of person is not on here Mudcat or, at least I have not seen the evidence that it is so.

Because it is such a ugly and dirty word, I take it seriously when any well-meaning and compassionate person on Mudcat is inappriopriately called "a racist". Why not strike this word from Mudcat and reserve it for the true racist assholes in the world? They are not hard to find. At a minimum, can we all agree to use caution when we use such powerful words in our "rare" heated discussions.

Looking back, it was wrong, (for me) and many others on Mudcat, not to come forward and speak out when a few of our compassionate and well-meaning Mudcat friends were unfairly called "racists" on a few Mudcat threads. Not only was this hurtful to the undeserving mudcat members, but allowing it to occur (more than once) encouraged it to occur again and again. I say that I will not let this happen again, and if I see it, I will speak out in protest - as a few others have done (thanks for doing that for all of us).

Below is a good, but briefly stated, example of a well known Canadian Journalist from CTV - TV who has come forward and stated he will be an agent of change to stop racism in journalism, regardless of who it is directed at:

Kevin Newman's rationale for covering racism in a different way than pre-Civil Rights America):

""As I was working on a story for W5, I was also reading Douglas Brinkley's remarkable biography of Walter Cronkite. I was surprised and relieved to learn how Cronkite had driven CBS reporters to cross a similar line in their reporting during the civil rights movement in the U.S. The systemic racism toward African-Americans, he believed, compelled journalists to put aside their notions of neutrality and play a role in shaping American's acceptance of equal rights.

To Cronkite, there was no "other side" that needed equal time in CBS reporting of segregation; there was only one position that was humane and moral. That's how I feel about what I consider the civil rights issue of my time: legal and societal equality for gays and lesbians. I cannot see a valid or moral argument for limiting them. I will not accept that my son has fewer rights, must hide who he is, or be afraid to celebrate true love in front of us.

Cronkite's example helped ease my reluctance to reveal my bias, and as long as I'm being transparent about it, I feel comfortable sharing with W5 viewers and you this aspect of my life I never have discussed before"".

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 06:10 PM

"Lizzie, I have never implied that you don't have a clue and I don't appreciate you taking my comments out of context."

I didn't say you had, Sandy. I said I see in pictures and had no picture for the words you used, which I'd quoted. Then I asked if you meant (by the words you used) that I didn't have a clue what was happening. I merely wanted you to clarify/explain what you meant. That was all. I wasn't grumping, you just read it that way...Be good if messages 'talked' like they do in Harry Potter, then you'd hear the correct intonation in my voice. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 06:48 AM

"Activists have certainly raised the profile of native issues — an inherently good thing — but their incoherence is often counter-productive.....
We have a common enemy, and it's the status quo," he (Shawn Atleo, the head of the Assembly of First Nations)declared. What he didn't say is that chaos will be the common enemy unless the AFN maintains some cohesion,""


Chronicle Herald Editorial

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Kevin Madsen
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 01:55 AM

How many signatures do we need to get this guy gone? We need another election with hopefully a few honest politicians even though that is an oxymoron.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 08:54 AM

Signatures on a petition will not do the trick. Have you considered getting active in your local Liberal, NDP or Green riding association?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:32 AM

Signatures on a petition will not do the trick.

They WON'T???

What about "Likes" on Farcebook? What about Tweets for Twits?

Say it Ain't So, Joe!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 10:12 AM

I believe that Justin Trudeau has what it takes to send Harper packing to the shitcan of history. However it will require him to negotiate a joint strategy with the NDP.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 11:18 AM

I'm no Joe, Greg, but I will assert that it ain't so. Canada's regime-change rules may be arcane, but there it is: no Facebook, no Twitter, no petitions. It's Parlament and nothing but.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 12:18 PM

Gonna be a world of disillusioned narcissists out there, Charmion.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 12:50 PM

Canada is well-served by Stephen Harper and the Conservatives.

Out here in the west, his support is stronger than ever.
Dunno what has got some mudcatters in a tizzy.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 03:48 PM

If petitions were the way to remove leaders from power, I suspect there would have been many regime changes through the history of governments. Fortunately, in democracies, elections remain the main route for regime change. While there are no guarantees that any persons vote will change things much - there's a certainity that personal perspectives don't count if they don't vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 04:59 AM

"Canada is well-served by Stephen Harper and the Conservatives."

I think 'well-serviced' may be the correct term. At least it was the polite phrasing when I lived in cattle country.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:34 AM

Well, out here in Quebec, I consider Harper a horrific hazard. What I really think of him is unprintable.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 04:08 PM

The Teddies

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 01:07 PM

Excellent news!

Rats! Can't find the link and didn't copy the credits. grrrrrrr

Canada's Métis are celebrating a Supreme Court ruling that found the federal government failed to follow through on a promise it made to the Métis people over 140 years ago.

A legal challenge by the Manitoba Métis Federation sought recognition for the treatment of its people after the 1870 government land deal that ended the Red River resistance.

The 6-2 ruling in Canada's highest court declared that "the Federal Crown failed to implement the land grant provision set out in s.31 of the Manitoba Act, 1870 in accordance with the honour of the Crown."

The federal government "acted with persistent inattention and failed to act diligently," the ruling explains, adding that it "could and should have done better."

"This was not a matter of occasional negligence, but of repeated mistakes and inaction that persisted for more than a decade," it says.

Writing the reasons for the majority decision, Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin and Justice Andromache Karakatsanis outlined lasting effects of the federal government's failure to honour obligations dating back 140 years.

"So long as the issue remains outstanding, the goal of reconciliation and constitutional harmony, recognized in s. 35 of the Charter and underlying s. 31 of the Manitoba Act, remains unachieved. The ongoing rift in the national fabric that s. 31 was adopted to cure remains unremedied," they wrote.

"The unfinished business of reconciliation of the Métis people with Canadian sovereignty is a matter of national and constitutional import," the ruling says.

Justices Marshall Rothstein and Michael Moldaver dissented from the majority view.

Negotiations now likely

The ruling ends three decades of legal challenges brought by the Métis against the federal government.

Friday's decision has not ordered any particular remedies, but it could open the door to land claim negotiations or talks toward other forms of compensation from the federal government.

The Métis argued that Ottawa reneged on its promises under the Manitoba Act, which created the province and brought it into Confederation.

The Manitoba Act, made in 1870, promised to set aside 5,565 square kilometres of land for 7,000 children of the Red River Métis. That land includes what is now the city of Winnipeg.

The land transfer to the Métis outlined in the Act was to be a "concrete measure" to reconcile with the Métis community, the ruling agrees, calling its "prompt and equitable implementation... fundamental."

The land grants were meant to give the Métis a head start in the race for land in the new province, and that meant the grants had to be made while a head start was still possible, the justices wrote. "Everyone concerned understood that a wave of settlement from Europe and Canada to the east would soon sweep over the province."

The land deal was made in order to settle the Red River resistance, which was fought by Métis struggling to hold onto their land amid growing white settlements.

However, it took 15 years for the lands to be completely distributed, while the Métis faced hostility from large numbers of incoming settlers.

Lower courts found in federal government's favour

The federal government ultimately distributed the land through a random lottery, destroying the dream of a Métis homeland.

"Section 31 conferred land rights on yet-to-be-identified individuals – the Métis children," the ruling says. "Yet the record leaves no doubt that it was a promise made to the Métis people collectively, in recognition of their distinct community. The honour of the Crown is thus engaged here."

In 2010, the Manitoba Court of Appeal upheld a lower court ruling that found the federal government did not violate its duty to the Métis.

The case then went to the Supreme Court of Canada, where lawyers for both sides presented their arguments in December 2011.

The Métis federation requested a declaration that the constitutional agreement was not upheld.

Federal lawyers argued that the case should be thrown out because it is more than a century old. They also said Ottawa didn't actually violate its side of the agreement.

Métis overjoyed

Manitoba Métis Federation President David Chartrand said the ruling provides the vindication the MMF has been fighting for for years. He said he had been fielding emotional phone calls all morning.

"Such pride at home right now, and tears are being shed. They're crying and they're phoning," Chartrand said.

"They can't even talk on the phone properly because there's so much joy at home right now."

Chartrand said it is now time for the group to sit down and negotiate with the government of Canada. He said they have no interest in land but believes they should be compensated for what they have lost.

"Our country did not give us any kind of credence and respect and felt they just could take whatever they wanted, and today our justice system is saying, 'No, you can't. You were wrong. Now fix it,'" said Chartrand.

Winnipegger John Morrisseau is a descendant of the original Red River settlers. He said the ruling not only helps right a historical wrong but makes him optimistic for the future of government-Métis relations.

"It's kind of put a different turn to it. So now, the government's going to have to look at us a little different when we go to the table to negotiate," said Morrisseau.

Chartrand said the negotiations are long overdue and added insight from Louis Riel, who spoke of the relationship between the federal government and the Métis during the Red River resistance.

"He said there were two societies with treaty together. One was small but in its smallness had its rights. The other was great but in its greatness had no greater rights than the rights of the small. You know, how more fitting can that be today?"

Historians, politicians laud decision

Manitoba historian Philippe Mailhot studied the 1870 negotiations between the Métis and the federal government and said he's pleased with the ruling.

"My reaction is extremely positive because what was said to the delegation from the Red River Settlement in terms of the distribution of land was not what actually happened," said Mailhot.

Karen Busby, a professor of law at the University of Manitoba, was shocked by the decision, which she says will have major implications.

"This is an absolutely groundbreaking decision," said Busby.

"The Manitoba Métis Federation and the individual plaintiffs lost on every point at the lower courts, and now, before the Supreme Court of Canada they've won on the most important point."

MP Jean Crowder is the NDP's aboriginal affairs critic. In a statement issued Friday afternoon, she said it was regrettable the federal government did not negotiate a settlement on the issue before the ruling was handed down.

Crowder said the federal government must now negotiate with the Métis in "good faith."

Chartrand said after 140 years of waiting, a prompt response from the federal government is necessary.

"I think the onus is on Canada now to do the right thing now, quickly," he said. "I think this prime minister will sit down with us. It's my message to him: I'm expecting we should sit down."

The government of Canada issued a statement Friday saying it is reviewing the ruling.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 01:43 PM

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/03/08/pol-metis-supreme-court-land-dispute.html

It's from there, gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 03:10 PM

Legal opinions are that monetary settlements will be the outcome (Gordon Christie, UBC, and others).

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 03:19 PM

Impact comes down to how widely the ruling is interpreted, and if the court gave guidance on that aspect?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 06:47 PM

Ed T- True. Little to go on yet.
Winnipeg properties are mostly private, and the opinion I saw said ownership would prevail, hence monetary settlement is likely.
The provinces have treated aboriginal rights differently, so any blanket statements are probably incorrect.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 11:58 PM

WHAT UP STEVE !

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 02:09 PM

Normally I don't care much for rap biLL but that is an exception! :-}

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: meself
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 02:53 PM

Meanwhile, Chretien - who kept us out of Iraq, when Steve wanted us in - attended the funeral ....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 02:54 PM

Ditto... it was rather well done. Kida like a Mercer rant - "Mercer rantesque"? Raprant?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: meself
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:21 PM

Whoops! Wrong thread ....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:49 PM

Jean got some class, unlike Harper who is in a class of his own. He's a classhole.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 04:29 PM

WTF? The Tobique Reserve of New Brunswick is in a protest? Some have taken over new buildings under construction because they are HOMELESS??!! These are Maliseets fer ****sake! How the hell did that happen?

The RCMP are on site "to keep the peace"? I am in shock! I was good friends with a lad from this reserve. He worked for me. He taught me a lot about their history and some of it ain't pretty so I won't get into it. If what he told me is true, and I believe it to be given what I know from others, I simply am shocked to see this take place.

My immediate hope is that the mutual respect between the Yellow Stripes and the Elders holds (and with the Warriors - there were NO reports of Warriors but I know they will arrive) and stays strong and that tempers are settled down before any violence occurs. To see them yelling at the CBC cameras was unsettling.

Again... I am shocked to hear that Maliseets are homeless. Just seems... HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

Sorry if that is asking a question nobody can answer. Few know of the history of our Native Brothers in each and every tribe/situation and it's delicate because it also involves the "interaction" between the tribes over centuries. Suffice it to say... I am gob smacked!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:22 PM

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100030381/1100100030382

Check it out, gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 06:45 AM

Thanks, GUEST. I should point out the first sentence of para 2 should read "... southeast OF where the Saint John and Tobique Rivers meet."

I am aware of the claims AND the shame. The "claims" of this band extend far further into history and extend beyond those against the European "Settlers". But there ain't no way I am gettin into that for two reasons. I do not know the history and it's a very contentious and "private" issue.

I'll only add that negotiation of such claims by the feds limits compensation in such a way that should make everyone's blood boil. If someone offered you, as a Native, a pittance for a piece of land that, if freeheld could be sold for FAR more, wouldn't it make your blood boil?

I have often thought, what if the Native claims proposed a provision in which the land was returned to the care and trust of the Natives and THEY collected the property taxes as set forth by the Provincial government for freeheld land and THEY collected timber stumpage and THEY decided where lumbering would take place and THEY collected mining royalties and THEY...

Ya see where I am going with this? Of course, I can't see such a reasonable (?) approach ever being accepted by the guys with the guns employed by Her Majesty The Queen in Right of Canada for it is written, in blood, don't fuck with The Crown.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 13 - 08:54 PM

http://desmog.ca/2013/05/23/beaver-lake-cree-judgment-most-important-tar-sands-case-you-ve-never-heard