BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite

Subject: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

Cor, aren't we all glad that she got the job and not that horrid Andrea. Why, next to her Theresa May positively looks like our knight in shining armour to the rescue. But she isn't. She presided over the failure of Cameron's vacuous promise to cut immigration to the tens of thousands, then lied about it. In 2007, when Gordon Brown was handed the prime minister's job in circumstances just like this, she sneeringly suggested that he was ‘running scared of the people’s verdict’ when he refused to call a general election. The woman is poison. Nothing will improve under her. There should be an election.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 03:08 PM

You labour people are never happy, why did you not have a general election when Blair resigned??? There is a Conservative government until the next general election - I laugh!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 04:21 PM

Not having an election when Blair resigned was a major error. So was it when the same mistake was made when Callaghan replaced Wilson.

I hope Theresa May makes the same mistake, and gets the same result - defeat at the next election.

It's a bit more complicated this time, since the law now insists there can't be a fresh election under five years, without two thirds of the commons voting for it. But of course the law requiring that can always be repealed on a bare majority. (We really do have remarkably bent constitutional arrangements - for example, there's nothing to stop a government with a reliable house of commons from extending the life of parliament as long as it wishes...)

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 04:54 PM

Some of us will never forget May as the Home Secretary who refused to stop the deportation to Mauritius of a teenage girl who had been about to sit her A-levels, while her mother and brother were allowed to remain in Britain. The poor terrified girl was held in custody like a criminal until an airline could be found to take her, BA having quite rightly refused.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 05:24 PM

And remember her bright idea of having vans drive round in London with giant billboards aimed at people without the proper papers "Go Home or Face Arrest".

Thatcher come again. I only hope there are enough people who clearly remember the original to build a tsunami of opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 06:29 PM

Well Bozo middle 'n' leg, I WANTED an election when Blair resigned so don't bloody blame me, pal. For all the crap we've heard about the EU "democratic deficit," this lot really takes the biscuit. This person has been crowned by fewer than 200 MPs in circumstances that couldn't have been more different from the ones prevailing at the last election if we'd tried. She's going to have to carry that baggage for the next three-plus years unless she calls an election, and, since she'd win anyway, I really don't know why she doesn't legitimise her position by doing so. Still, as Kevin says, let's hope that this bloody charlatan makes the same mistake and gets the same result. And we CAN have an election, despite that silly five-year bollix.

She does look so soothing when set alongside Gove and Leadsom though, doesn't she? Jesus Christ on a bloody bike.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 03:46 AM

Mrs May was my tip for next leader of the Conservative Party over a year ago.
All in all not a bad choice for the Conservatives, but a very difficult position to fill under present circumstances.

A perfect time for a united Labour P
arty to gain lost ground, tho' it seems career prospects are more important to the Parliamentary Party members.   They should remember that without the backing of the membership they are going nowhere.

If Mrs May manages to handle the problems she inherits she could have an extremely long innings.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 04:05 AM

I know human rights aren't your thing Ake, but this is what we can look forward to in Britain
Theresa May on Human Rights
Should please Assad and his ilk no end to know that Britain is on their side
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 06:43 AM

"why did you not have a general election when Blair resigned???""

Well, for a start it was not up to me. Had it been, I would have called one and Brown made a big mistake not going to the country as a PM cannot rule without a mandate (which the EU ref was most certainly not); it didn't work last time, it won't this time.


May is hard to read. She seems progressive in some matters such as voting for gay marriage, but then seems to be a bit nasty when it comes to immigration etc. Surely she's the lesser of two evils though, Leadsom was a typical Little Englander tory and these are hopefully becoming gradually extinct... perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 06:52 AM

Nah, they just run away from the consequences of their actions. Rats and sinking ships come to mind. Of the choices [not] on offer, May is the least horrible.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 07:36 AM

"why did you not have a general election when Blair resigned???""

Add me to the list of those who wanted an election as well. Though I would add that Brown as prime-minister-in-waiting was recognised by everyone when the preceding election took place, which does not apply this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 01:37 PM

Do the Conservatives have to go to the country? No they don't
Does Theresa May have to go to the country? No she doesn't

Is it in the interests of the country to be plunged into the turmoil of a General Election at this time? No it is not. Why not?

1: Recent EU Referendum means that Brexit is the main priority over the next two and a half years - no pointless distractions.

2: The Conservatives have shown how a political party can progress through a highly divisive argument and still remain intact.

3: The mess that the Labour Party are in at the moment would make actually mounting any sort of election extremely difficult, if not impossible. At the moment they cannot even fulfil their current responsibility of providing an effective opposition to the Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 02:48 PM

Labour didn't go to the country when Blair resigned, why should the Tories ?

And thank you Teribus for the Political Party Broadcast on behalf of The Conservative and Unionist Party, tosser.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 04:10 PM

So Dave H as you see no requirement for a General Election it would appear that in general we are in agreement.

As for the Party Political Broadcast? Hardly, mere observation. Undoubted that the Conservatives have handled their leadership replacement task with far greater ease than the current fiasco that threatens the existence of the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 04:10 PM

So Dave H as you see no requirement for a General Election it would appear that in general we are in agreement.

As for the Party Political Broadcast? Hardly, mere observation. Undoubted that the Conservatives have handled their leadership replacement task with far greater ease than the current fiasco that threatens the existence of the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 05:09 PM

Rats and sinking ships come to mind.

Rats are noble little critters and have nothing in common with the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 05:37 PM

Good point...

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 05:41 PM

I'm for Judy Dench.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: selby
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 06:45 PM

Seems to me the Labour Party has just imploded and handed to the tories a long time in. Office. Thanks a lot

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 06:55 PM

Really? Well pray tell us which Labour politician can unite the party and win the next election for us, reminding yourself as you make your selection that each and every one of the old Blair-Brown guard played a decisive role in losing two elections and catapulting into power the scabbiest bunch of ragbag Tories in history. Jeremy Corbyn may not be charismatic but, unlike every single one oF the conniving ratbags who dragged us out of the EU, he's still here and has maintained his dignity and integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 07:09 PM

"The turmoil of a General Election" - what turmoil?

It would be the sensible thing for May to arrange a General Election as soon as possible, before the opposition gets its head together with its body. I hope Teribus is right in predicting she won't, but I suspect he's wrong.

I wonder what job Andrea Leadsom will get in the new administration as her reward.

The big puzzle in all this is still why Boris Johnson imploded, just becacause Gove was nasty to him. On the face of it he could have shrugged Gove off as an irritaring tick, and still have had a god chance to be one of the two finalists. In which case ephe'd probably have walked it.

Of course he's probably a lot less keen on Brexit than Theresa May, but that needn't have been a serious problem. Surely there has to be some other explanation. But it's hard to think of a likely dirty secret which would seriously have harmed Boris. Something llike those swinish rumours about Cameron wouldn't have worked. Maybe he just considered the options and decided it just wouldn't be any fun.

And I don't think having Theresa May in charge is going to be any fun for any of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 09:09 PM

Thatcher come again. I only hope there are enough people who clearly remember the original

Some folks never learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 09:32 PM

on the other hand it's all been a bit too confusing with 'nice guy' Dave as tory leader..

At least now we'll have a proper despicable evil witch tory again to polarise political culture
and hopefully galvanise the student youth into forming politicised punk and ska bands all over again... 😜

.. might even get some young folkies writing the odd protest song
in their public school dorms....

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 02:54 AM

Looking forward to proper Conservative government, which all you middle class, pretend working class folks prefer to something lead by that bearded fool!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 03:19 AM

"Seems to me the Labour Party has just imploded and handed to the tories a long time in. Office"
The British Labour Party needs to look long and hard at what's happened to their counterpart in the Irish Republic.
Years of watered down principles, coalition and compromise with the right has led to their virtual disappearance from the scene - take a look at the last election results.
People here have turned to the independents for the change they want - luckily we have a proportional representation system capable of influencing individual issues (water charges seem to have been kicked into touch and attempts as refuse collection profiteering has been slowed down) but the big issues, such as homelessness and the exploitation and mismanagement of the economy by the powerful and influential need something more.
Labour doesn't need a "strong leadership" in needs a principled one.
As far as May is concerned, she has all the makings of an Iron Lady in a velvet frock.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 09:27 AM

Looking forward to proper Conservative government


As it was before the Reform Acts 1832, 1867, and 1884–85, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 03:11 PM

Bwahahaha! So she's made Boris foreign secretary. What a bloody joke. Still, I expect she'd rather have him inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in...

Bloody coward! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 05:28 PM

You want a joke?   Which part of his legacy is Mr Cameron most proud of.......homosexual "marriage" legislation! Now that is a joke, an issue which affects a tiny minority of a tiny minority!

He could have chosen his part in the ruin of Libya, leading to the growth of IS and the subsequent refugee problem, or the attempt to remove Assad and turn Syria into another failed state and breeding ground for Islamic Fundamentalism, or the granting of a referendum to save himself and his Party from the wrath of Mr Farage and his ex Labour voters?

Well I suppose he hasn't much to feel proud about.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 05:33 PM

She's just lost her credibility with me for that, Steve! Amid all the mayhem since referendum day and all the comings and goings, my feeling was, as a non-Conservative, that she might be the best of a bad bunch, if we really had to continue with a Conservative government in Westminster. But she has just blown it, as far as I'm concerned

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 07:41 PM

Hang on a minute the "leftist" cabale on this forum were laughing and complaining that those who had engineered the Brexit victory had all disappeared from the scene. Perhaps you'd better look at how the Council of the European Union works it consists of 28 members and is an ever changing feast which at times for most of the really important decisions is composed of the 28 Foreign Ministers of the 28 member states. With the UK poised to leave then Boris Johnson is the perfect choice for Foreign Secretary.

Akenaton the departing Prime Minister has got many things to be proud of. You portray it as though he did not and that there was only one thing that he was "proud" of, which you for your own personal reasons disagree with.

The ruin of Libya? Well left to Gaddafi, tens of thousands of civilians would have died in the eastern part of the country. The GCC and the Arab League along with the EU, primarily France and the UK, demanded intervention. They did get a limited UN Resolution 1972 to stop the mass slaughter of civilians - Bet your life that the civilian population at large in Syria wish that the UN had acted in a similar manner to the strife that engulfed them. But no the anti-war crowd in the UK and Parliament stopped the British Government from doing what they saw as being right and the result is that since 2011 more Syrians have been killed and more displaced than ever resulted from the US invasion and occupation of Iraq between 2003 and 2010, and the killing still goes on with no end in sight - well done the anti-war crowd. Had we acted in the manner suggested when it was first suggested then Assad would have been gone long ago. There would have been a damned sight more Syrians alive today and no refugee problem and no ISIS.

"Amid all the mayhem since referendum day and all the comings and goings, my feeling was, as a non-Conservative, that she might be the best of a bad bunch, if we really had to continue with a Conservative government in Westminster. But she has just blown it, as far as I'm concerned"

1: What mayhem since the referendum? The only mayhem I have noted has concerned the Labour Party.

2: The comings and goings are those reflected by people who having taken a particular stance and lost, honourably standing aside and stepping down to allow others to proceed.

3: "if we really had to continue with a Conservative government in Westminster"   What are you talking about you prat, the referendum on the EU was a Conservative Manifesto promise in the 2015 election campaign, it didn't happen during the term of the Coaltion Government because the Lib-Dems blocked it. The country under our electoral system chose a Conservative Government in 2015 and they honoured their promise. The referendum was held and the vote was to leave the EU - if you believe in democracy then live with it - if not then I wish you joy in "Animal Farm" - you deserve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 08:02 PM

How much are they paying you to defend the indefensible, Teribus? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 09:19 PM

I notice that you do not, or cannot, come up with anything indefensible Shaw? Is there any reason for that.

In comparison between Labour and Conservative departing Prime Minister David Cameron was quite good at his last PQT in the House of Commons today when he compared leadership changes and challenges. The Conservatives have had the whole thing done and dusted between the 24th June, 2016 and the 14th July, 2016 - Labour haven't even decided and agreed what the rules are.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 09:40 PM

Yes they have and you are parroting Cameron's parting shot and you know it. Your party has replaced a posh Eton slick-talking pig-oral-shagging chappie with a harpy via a coronation. If you're happy with that then your democratic credentials are in tatters. Being "quite good" at PMQs is a measure of absolutely nothing significant. If it was, you'd be militantly calling for the immediate knighthoods of Michael Foot and Angela Eagle (or whatever you call women knights), both of whom could take call-me-Dave to pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 01:41 AM

YOU have a Party Shaw - I don't, haven't you realised that yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 03:36 AM

Teribus...Mr Cameron actually said that the referred to legislation was that which gave him the most pleasure.
In real terms, that legislation is almost completely meaningless to the vast majority of the ordinary electorate.

Of course Mr Cameron and Mr Osbourne have done things with the economy which have removed the immediate danger created by the crash of 2008, but remember that was a crisis of capitalism, therefore from the Conservative point of view it required immediate and drastic measures.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 05:15 AM

Meaningless? Well I'm not gay and have been happily married for forty years, and I can assure you that that "meaningless" legislation means a very great deal to me in terms of the joy I feel for the many people, including some friends of mine, who are now free to marry the person they love, just as I was. It is clearly not "meaningless" to you, either, as you haven't stopped banging on about it for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 05:18 AM

Well,Teribus, I've "had a party" for just nine months out of the last 65 years. I have no idea what political affiliations you have now or have had in the past and I'm not interested. It's what you say in the two-dimensional world of this forum that's relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 06:04 AM

"In real terms, that legislation is almost completely meaningless to the vast majority of the ordinary electorate."

No it's not as it shows a welcome change in attitudes as society progresses and we become more tolerant and accepting of people's choices. It's about love, and that's more important than anything else.

Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM

"a welcome change in attitudes as society progresses and we become more tolerant and accepting of people's choices"

With the exception regarding those who apparently support the Conservative Party it would seem.

Said it before but will restate it - I have never, ever been a member of any political party in my life - it was not encouraged in the armed forces, as a result I am one of the most a-political people you could meet. I do however get a great deal of fun poking fun at people who:

1: Blame Margaret Thatcher for all the ills of the world.
2: Seem unable to say the word "Conservative" or "Tory" without prefixing it with the word f**king (So much for the tolerance of "socialists).

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 07:03 AM

Like terriblebagpuss I've also never been a membr of any party...

I'm a Labour voter [apart from that futile experiment voting tactically for the treacherous Liberals]
but not a member.

If I was to find out the local tory club served better conditioned 'real' cider than the local workingmens club's
which is cheap but often eggy and vinegary,
then I'd have a dreadful dilemna to contend with........??????

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 08:10 AM

"I have never, ever been a member of any political party in my life"

Probably not, his natural choice was disbanded in 1940.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 08:17 AM

Boris for Foreign Secretary - are they 'avin a larff?
Just watched two elderly ladies on the news curled up - one said "he's an idiot", the other said rather dryly, "Maybe his vast experience as Lord Mayor of London has made him an expert on foreign affairs".
The Brexit farce continues.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 08:48 AM

"I am one of the most a-political people you could meet."

Sure, and I'm the Queen of Sheba. ??????

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 08:53 AM

And now Stephen Crabb has resigned from the government "in the best interests of my family." Why, less than a week ago he wanted to be party leader! Charlatans and liars abound.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 09:57 AM

"With the exception regarding those who apparently support the Conservative Party it would seem."

Quite bloody right too.

Actually, I was a Young Conservative for a while and was even on the committee of my local branch. I was only 16 at the time and we had moved away from where I grew up and my dad sent me down the pub it met in to meet new folk. It was good because we as long as we had butties we could drink, so I stuck with it until two things happened. One of the speakers was a chap from Shelter who sat down and proclaimed his socialism at the start of the meeting; by the ned of the evening I was a total convert to Socialism, I;d never met anyone I agreed with more. Around the same time I was attending an English Literature O Level evening class to re-take the one I had failed, and the teacher was another devout socialist. She was brilliant, and as we read through Bernard Shaw and Dickens I realised I was on the road to Damascus.

Eventually I left as the behaviour of some of the other (privileged) YC's was utterly appalling, our Tory MP was a total crook and the local senior association branch was basically an afternoon tea club for rich old scrotes. I'm glad I did it though as I got a really good grounding in politics and saw how it worked at grass roots level.

That was over 30 years ago, and I've never been in a party since, and I now think party politics is becoming increasingly irrelevant and has been overtaken by a changing world as people become increasingly disillusioned with the many shortcomings of the system.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 03:49 AM

Tolerance is tolerance Stu and I have found that most people who claim to be tolerant generally aren't. Those who claim to represent the "socialist liberal left" on this forum prove that day in day out.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Stu
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 04:26 AM

It's not confined to one party T, it's across the board. Simply disagreeing with someone's politics and debating it with a bit of spirit isn't showing intolerance, that's how it works in the UK as you know.

I'm all for calling out intolerance where it exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 06:46 AM

Taking the piss out of mates and 'adversaries' is a great British tradition.... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 08:52 AM

I have found that most people who claim to be tolerant generally aren't.

As you, Mr. T, have yourself demonstrated.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 08:54 AM

Well, I would vote for people like David Davis long before any of the Blairite "liberals who masquerade under the Labour banner, they would happily have assisted in the removal of President Assad and left Syria open to a complete takeover by Islamic State.

Assad may not be a democrat, but by God he is a hundred times better than the fanatics we were about to support......Had it not been for Mr Putin stepping in to secure his own people from extreme terrorism on his doorstep, we would have succeeded in turning another viable country into a failed or failing state just like Iraq and Libya.

The greatest danger at the present time is Islamic extremism and this Conservative cabinet looks like it is free from ideological obstructions, can set up a real dialogue with Russia and get trade moving again.....removal of sanctions against Russia would be a good start.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 09:17 AM

"Assad may not be a democrat, "
Assad is a murdering, torturing fascist - that is better than nobody
Has Assad been removed that would have been hundreds of thousands of man women and children still living, including the mothers and babies who were shot for a bet with one bullet.
Isis is the result of Assad not being removed - they would never have gained a toe-hold had he been opposed by the west.
Isis is a product of our inaction and appeasment to dictators like Assad
What a strange set of inhuman values you have
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Stu
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 09:33 AM

"Assad may not be a democrat, but by God he is a hundred times better than the fanatics we were about to support..."

Unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 09:41 AM

[Note to self: recall the 08.54 AM July 15 akenaton post next time Keith or Teribus expresses support for his views...]

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

"Unbelievable."
Unbelieveable - you're not really new here are you Stu?
Par for the course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Stu
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 11:23 AM

There's lots here who are par for the course.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 12:00 PM

You could say the same for Saddam, but how many still think his removal was a "good" thing......very few and certainly not the people who live in Iraq or Libya.

You people are ruled by your "liberal" ideology.....you walk around in the dark with plugs in your ears.

It is a wonder you are not still supporting the criminal Blair.
Every one of our interventions has led to catastrophe.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 12:24 PM

"Assad is a murdering, torturing fascist"

Jom, how dare you compare Assad to me - someone might object and accuse you of giving him a bad name.

Greg F. - 15 Jul 16 - 08:52 AM - Example please Greg F. (Don't worry nobody will be holding their breath, it'll end up being yet another baseless accusation backed by nothing and totally unsubstantiated)

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 12:48 PM

"You could say the same for Saddam,"
We didn't help create, support and help supply Saddam and we bear no responsibility for his actions
One you start appeasing monsters - like any of them, you become one of them
"You people are ruled by your "liberal" ideology."
No - by our humanity
- you cannot weigh up someone who instagate the massacre of his people against any other monster, they are all monsters (even if, in the case of Assad, we have helped them thrive) and none of of them are better than the other.
If we had supported the Arabs who were trying to bring democracy (no matter what form) into dictatorships, Isis would never have gained the support it did
We song arms to Qaddafi then supported the rebels, we sold chemicals, riot control equipment and ammunition to Assad - he used them against his people while we stood by and did nothing - enter Isis stage right.
You snide on about Te Arab Spring so presumably everybody who suffers under allies such as Assad, Qaddafi, the Saudis, who we sell masses of arms to.... should bear their burden in silence.
If you were so virulently opposed to the Arab Spring, what on earth do you think was going to happen top these protesters?
They did the local thing and turned to anybody who they thought might help them.
We didn't, and now we're fighting alongside ta bloody dictator.
Blair was fighting for oil, not to democratise Iraq or anywhere.
The Arab Spring was about the conditions these people were living under at the hands of the West's allies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 12:56 PM

akenaton - 15 Jul 16 - 12:00 PM

You could say the same for Saddam, but how many still think his removal was a "good" thing

Off the top of my head I can think of about 102,750,000 people who are absolutely delighted that he was permanently removed from the scene and it really does not take much imagination to identify them or the reasons they would feel the way they do.

20,800,000 Iraqi Shia Muslims
3,750,000 Kuwaiti Nationals
78,200,000 Iranians

Now stand by for a total shock to Mudcat BS Section I would advise the usual suspects to be seated before reading the following:

Jim Carroll - 15 Jul 16 - 09:17 AM

Isis is the result of Assad not being removed - they would never have gained a toe-hold had he been opposed by the west.
Isis is a product of our inaction and appeasement to dictators like Assad

Almost 100%, or %100, correct Jom apart from that bit right at the end - Assad was not and has not been "appeased", Putin on the other hand has.

For once Jom's claim can be easily substantiated by timeline:

On the 30th August 2013 David Cameron asked Parliament to back action against Assad's regime in Syria and Parliament and the anti-war mob said NO and won the day. At that time ISIS did not exist, ISIS first declared themselves almost a year LATER, they did it knowing that they could establish themselves in a lawless Syria in the full knowledge that the western powers WOULD NOT ACT. The fact that ISIS are the threat they are today is because the western powers blinked and refused to act.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 01:21 PM

"Assad was not and has not been "appeased"
Yes he was - the world (including Britain) knew about his torture chambers and his "disappeared" opponents years before the trouble broke out - they neither said nor did nothing.
Britain licenced sniper ammunition which was probab;y used to train the snipers on the streets of Homs, we supplied him with electronic equipment that was used for torture and we supplied him with water cannon vehicles, armoured cars and riot control equipment that was used to quell the protests.
Britain sold chemicals capable of being used in the manufacture of weapons
When Assads generals deserted him, they begged Britain to intervene by seizing Assad's London property, and condemn him publicly Assad's brother-in-law gofer continued to visit London regularly to see to Assad's business - sounds like appeasement to me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 02:36 PM

1: "Britain licenced sniper ammunition which was probab;y used to train the snipers on the streets of Homs"

Explain please what "Britain licenced sniper ammunition" means. Does it mean that the appropriate Government Ministry or Department issued an export licence? If so is there any proof that that licence was used?

As for the last bit - "which was probab;y used to train the snipers on the streets of Homs" - more than likely it probably wasn't as:

(a) The type of ammunition was wrong NATO 7.62mm as opposed Soviet 7.62mm - the NATO stuff does not fit in Soviet weapons which Assad has shedloads of.

(b) The licence covered the export of a minute amount of ammunition roughly 100,000 rounds and the licence was issued in 2009. The unrest that led to the internal disintegration of Syria commenced in the Spring of 2011. The Syrian Armed Forces are conscripts who before 2011 served for two years, in 2011 this was reduced to 18 months. Knowing Jom to be a wizard at arithmetic and an absolute demon for detail it should appear obvious to all that anyone trained as a sniper in 2009 would no longer be serving in 2011 (New recruits would in 2009 have to have complete basic training prior to being put forward for specialist training such as signallers, snipers, armourers, artilleryman, armour.).

2: " we supplied him with electronic equipment that was used for torture"

Evidence for that claim is where Jom?

3: "Britain sold chemicals capable of being used in the manufacture of weapons"

Also used to make toothpaste, which it was most likely used for going by the manufacturing records and sales data from the company supplied.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 02:56 PM

"Explain please what "Britain licenced sniper ammunition" means. "
I most certainly won't - why should I to a knowledgeable militarist like yourself!!
Been through this interminably on the Homs thread
First Keith said it was only a few sniper rifles"
Then you said they were licenced before the massacre, then you said they were never licencee, then you said they were licences but were never shipped
Then you said thery were the wrong size as if you knew what the shipmant consisted of.
Then you did your usual runner.
Now you come back prentending you had no idea of what they were.
Don't be silly!
"The type of ammunition was wrong NATO 7.62mm as opposed Soviet 7.62mm - the NATO stuff does not fit in Soviet weapons which Assad has shedloads of.
See above
"Evidence for that claim is where Jom?"
In the Amnesty report which you were presented with on the same site
"Also used to make toothpaste"
So?
It was made quite clear by the outcry at the time that it was equally usable for chemical weapons
What's your point?
"which it was most likely used for going by the manufacturing records and sales data from the company supplied."
More made up "facts"
When will you ever ****** understand how stupid your bullshitting makes you look look?
I take it the armoured cars, water cannon and riot control equipment sold to a murderous, torturing dictator meets with your approval then?
And the tooeing and froeing, the leaving Assad's property untouched and the refusal to put pressure on the man while he was massacring his people is ok by you too?
That'll do nicely!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 03:21 PM

Teribus could you please call Jim, Jim, not Jom, it is childish humour and I find it very annoying

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 06:46 PM

I couldn't agree more. His name is Bill Woodcock. There is scope there for plays on words. I won't pursue that, but you can probably see it. Perhaps we should exploit that until he decides to call Jim Jim and me Steve, among other things. Or maybe, unlike him, we shouldn't stoop.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 03:03 AM

GSS, fair point had I given him the name - but I didn't - he did that himself. He sometimes appears as JIm, but I prefer Jom, a name HE CALLED HIMSELF, so is HE being childish? If he ever did take exception to it he has never said and by now he probably doesn't even notice it - for years he deliberately misspelled my name, go back and check.

Lots of things people do on this forum annoy me, I just tend to ignore them and address what they say, suggest you do the likewise, if Jom is not offended by the name then you have no cause for complaint.

Jim Carroll - 15 Jul 16 - 02:56 PM

Now then Jom let's introduce a grain of truth and fact into your latest spittle-flecked rant shall we?

"First Keith said it was only a few sniper rifles"
Then you said they were licenced before the massacre, then you said they were never licencee, then you said they were licences but were never shipped.

In the Homs thread you accused the UK of supplying Assad with arms. You specifically singled out the UK while you studiously and completely ignored the massive Russian contribution of arms and ammunition to Assad's arsenal every month (Two whole ship loads IIRC - still pouring into Syria to this day - not a squeak of complaint about that from Anglophobe Jom).

Your original source and the links supplied by you were to newspaper articles from among others the Daily Mail.

Opening those links and not only reading them but also understanding what they said it was pointed out to you with the relevant sentences quoted from the articles that had so fanned your ire that:

(a) The UK Government had supplied no weapons - they had only granted an export licence to an independent dealer who IIRC was not a British citizen for the supply of NATO 7.62mm ammunition to the value of £15,000

(b) The article mentioned that the licence was granted in 2009. That is a matter of record as is the fact that the unrest in Syria started on the 11th March, 2011. So Both Keith A and myself were quite correct in pointing that out to you.

(c) When did I say they were never lincencee(sic) - I presume you meant to type "licenced". No doubt at all that a licence was issued to a private individual, a businessman who had absolutely no connection with the British Government (Remembering of course that you initially claimed the "arms" were being supplied by the British Government - which was a lie)

(d) At no point at all did I ever state that "they were licences(sic) but were never shipped" - again I presume "licenced" - You on the other hand were asked to prove that they had been shipped - you couldn't

2: Then you said thery were the wrong size as if you knew what the shipmant consisted of.

I did say they were of the wrong size, the article specifically mentioned NATO 7.62mm Ammunition - judge for yourself:

NATO 7.62mm Round

Russian 7.62mm Round

As you probably will not open those links and look at either the photographs or the measuring tapes included in the photographs the bit you need to pay attention to is not the 7.62mm bit but the 51 (NATO Round) and the 39 (Russian Round) those are measurements in millimetres and they tell you that the cartridge case for the NATO round is 12mm LONGER than the cartridge case for the Russian round - So taking into account that Syria's weapons have always been supplied by the Russians and that they predominantly use the Russian AK-47 then NATO 7.62 x 51 ammunition would not fit inside the magazines or the breech of an AK-47 weapon. Once you have grasped those minor details could you please offer any plausible explanation as to why the Syrians would purchase NATO rounds?

3: It was as these points were made to you that YOU Jom did a runner.


4: Relevant extract from Amnesty Report on torture in Syria dated 14th March, 2012:"

"Electric shock torture appears to be widely used in interrogations. Former detainees described three methods: dousing the victim or cell floor with water, then electro-shocking the victim through the water; the "electric chair", where electrodes are connected to parts of the body; and the use of electric prods."

The above is the only reference to the use of electronic equipment for torture in the report - Please show us all Jom where it specifies the equipment used - Please show us where Amnesty International states that the equipment used was supplied by the British Government. I ask for the simple reason I can find no mention of that.

5: "Also used to make toothpaste"
So?
It was made quite clear by the outcry at the time that it was equally usable for chemical weapons
What's your point?
"which it was most likely used for going by the manufacturing records and sales data from the company supplied."
More made up "facts"

A but Jom WAS IT USED to make Sarin? - YOU have no way of knowing, so why are you shouting to the roof tops that it was - YOU DON'T KNOW. That is my point.

When was the last shipment of sodium fluoride made? 2010. The chemical weapons strike that caused the uproar occurred on the 21st August 2013.

Who was it shipped to - Two Syrian cosmetics companies that manufactured among other things toothpaste. When a BIS spokesman was asked he said:

"The five licences were granted to two UK exporters. We cannot publish their names for reasons of commercial confidentiality. The end-users were two commercial Syrian companies.

The quantities of sodium fluoride involved were commensurate with the stated end use in the production of cosmetics and there was no reason to link them to Syria's chemical weapons programme. This remains to be the case"

I didn't make that up it was in the Daily Mail article that you yourself referred to Jom. Now how did they know the sodium fluoride supplied by them went into the manufacture of toothpaste? Because the amount of toothpaste produced was checked and found to match the quantities of sodium fluoride sent.

6: "Electric shock torture appears to be widely used in interrogations. Former detainees described three methods: dousing the victim or cell floor with water, then electro-shocking the victim through the water; the "electric chair", where electrodes are connected to parts of the body; and the use of electric prods."

On the contrary Jom, when Assad kicked this off I was all for hitting him and hitting him hard, just as David Cameron and Barack Obama wanted to at the time - but it was the anti-war crowd, yelling about Iraq and Afghanistan, who won the day didn't they? So no action was taken and thus ISIS flourished.

In conclusion I will turn your own words back on you:

When will you ever ****** understand how stupid your bullshitting makes you look look?

That'll do nicely!

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 03:11 AM

"Teribus could you please call Jim, Jim"
Thanks Dick, but leave it.
It's a constant reminder of the nastiness and the lack of imagination of this particular individual.
It's based on a typo of mine (one of the things he thrives on) - he hasn't the intelligence to come up with anything of his own so he stuck with this - fine by me.
It's a step up from "Christmas", I suppose, which I hadn't heard since I was in infants' school.
I was as guilty as anybody of inventing names to insult people I disliked - Joe offer pointed out the childish nature of doing so and suggested we stop, , I did, this feller is apparently hooked on his own lack of imagination - so leave him be and don't disturb the afflicted - he's happy to be seen as he is apparently.
Personally, I much prefer real names of people I'm discussing with, but that's me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 03:15 AM

On Syria of course, the US, the UK and others did finally get their act together and started hitting ISIS, first in Iraq and then latterly inside Syria. About 18 months ago there were dire predictions that in Iraq Baghdad was about to fall and that nothing, especially not US and UK airstrikes, could halt Daesh from their inevitable victory - How's that prediction coming along now?

They are being inexorably driven out of Iraq day by day and they are being hammered in Syria.

To those who opposed Cameron in 2013 I say action should have been taken then and ISIS would never have happened and by now Assad would have been long gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 06:32 AM

"On Syria of course, the US, the UK and others did finally get their act together and started hitting ISIS, "
After it had helped validate Isis and in support of a mass murdering dictator
Your idea of getting their act together?
Have we finished with the assistance given to Assad by Britain and the West?
"To those who opposed Cameron in 2013 I say "
Pompous as ever
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 04:08 PM

Jim Carroll - 16 Jul 16 - 06:32 AM

"On Syria of course, the US, the UK and others did finally get their act together and started hitting ISIS, "
After it had helped validate Isis and in support of a mass murdering dictator
Your idea of getting their act together?
Have we finished with the assistance given to Assad by Britain and the West?
"To those who opposed Cameron in 2013 I say "

OK in what way did the US and the UK "validate" ISIS? Dying to hear this, but it will get ignored.

In what way have the US and the UK given support to a mass murdering dictator? We all know that Putin has provided him with masses of support in military terms.

What assistance given to Assad by the West and Britain? Any comments regarding those NATO 7.62mm rounds? No? Thought not. No use to the Syrian Army or their Police, no evidence that they were ever delivered. Any comment related to the non-mention of British equipment by Amnesty International? No? Thought not.

"To those who opposed Cameron in 2013 I say action should have been taken then and ISIS would never have happened and by now Assad would have been long gone."

Pompous?? Funny that - You said almost exactly the same thing.

Jim Carroll - 15 Jul 16 - 09:17 AM

"Assad may not be a democrat, "
Assad is a murdering, torturing fascist - that is better than nobody
Has Assad been removed that would have been hundreds of thousands of man women and children still living, including the mothers and babies who were shot for a bet with one bullet.
Isis is the result of Assad not being removed - they would never have gained a toe-hold had he been opposed by the west.
Isis is a product of our inaction and appeasment to dictators like Assad"

You did say that didn't you Carroll?

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 11:39 AM

"You did say that didn't you Carroll?"
I did Woodenpecker
What's your point?
Doesn't alter your arrogant pomposity one little bit
You have been supporting or excusing the arming of Assad for as long as I can remember, as has your little friend which confirms your fascism
"OK in what way did the US and the UK "validate" ISIS? Dying to hear this, but it will get ignored."
I never ignore anything
We really have been here before if you'd only get somebody to read what is posted for you.
Chemicals - ammunition - riot control equipment..... allowing Assad to continue to own property in London while he was busy instigating the chemical attacks and the Homs massacre
A nation only had to look sideways at the oil supplies and U.S. troops would be sent in - the Assad family had been imprisoning, torturing and 'disappearing' opponents for a decade - Syria remained a friend and valued trading partner for all that time - you know this - you once sneeringly asked if Britain had "a crystal ball" to reveal these things - we had the Amnesty report.
When Assad's henchmen deserted him, they suggested that Britain exert influence to stop the massacres - Assad and his British wife valued Britain's support and might just have stopped the slaughter of what was then just innocent civilians - this was before it developed into a civil war.
Britain did nothing, allowing Isis to fill the gap left by the West.
You pair of slimeballs have defended every act of appeasement and every weapon and equipment sale to Syria from day one.
Apart from ammunition and equipment to keep the protesters in check, the West's silence was more than enough to give Isis a toe-hold in the area.
The West and the rise of Isis
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 07:14 AM

dum de dum de dum!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:34 AM

"dum de dum de dum!!!"
About time you people went in for a bit of self-analysis - "dum(b)" just about sums it up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:37 AM

I think Bonzo meant "you're playing that tune again", Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 09:01 AM

Ake - Why didn't you say earlier you are fairly fluent in "Bonzo"...

At last we have a translator...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 09:31 AM

"You have been supporting or excusing the arming of Assad for as long as I can remember, as has your little friend which confirms your fascism"

The last bit of that mystifies me somewhat, but I certainly have not been supporting arming Assad at all. Please produce proof that I have if you can.

You on the other hand claimed that the UK was supplying arms to Assad - both Keith A and myself asked you for proof of that - proof that you could not deliver. Now could you explain to everybody on this forum how on earth us asking you that question constitutes "support" for Assad?

By the way you never did get back to us how 7.62mm x 51 ammunition would fit into weapons that fire 7.62mm x 39 rounds.

Found that passage in the Amnesty International Report that states that equipment supplied by the UK was used to torture prisoners in Syria?

Property in London owned by Bashir-al Assad amounts to what? I take it in grabbing all this property you want the UK to respect the rule of law? Or is it the usual "One law for the Goose and another for the Gander" approach of a gangster? You see unless Bashir-al Assad's name is on the title deeds, technically and legally it is not his and as such cannot be touched.

"Syria remained a friend and valued trading partner for all that time"

Really Jom? For all that time apart from the four occasions on which we have broken off diplomatic relations with Syria that is.

The people who HAVE been supplying Assad with all the support he needs, including chemicals, munitions, weapons, tanks, artillery, aircraft have been Russian and you Jom have not, off your own bat, singled them out and roundly condemned them once.

What gap left by the "West" Jom?

Right from the start I advocated active participation on the part of the USA, France and the UK to assist in the overthrow of Assad - care to tell me how that is "appeasement"? I agree 100% with you that had that been done right from the start then ISIS would never have appeared. How is that "appeasement"?

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 01:02 PM

Islamic Terrorism was in existence long before there was any talk of regime change in Syria. They changed their name several times.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 01:05 PM

Sorry... If Assad had been overthrown, who would have been willing to fight the ground war? Aerial bombardment on its own has never worked.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 03:37 PM

" Please produce proof that I have if you can."
You bent over backwards to claim first they weren't sold ammunition by Britian, then a licence was issued but never ued, than the bullets were too small, then they were hunting weapons (all this after denyiing the sale existed..and several other excuses before you did your usual runner.
You made it all up from day one and were unbelieveably inconsistent in doing so.
You gave the nod to Britain selling Assad chemicals capable of manufacturing weapons because they were also used as an ingredient for toothpaste (around the time he was gassing his opponents).
Keith supported armoured cars, riot contol equipment, saying it would be fine to continue - you stayed silent - silence is support in these arguments as far as I'm concerned.
You kept mum when it was suggested that Britain should have brought pressure on Assad by confiscating his property - you may as well wear a tee-shirt with his head on it.
"You on the other hand claimed that the UK was supplying arms to Assad"
No - I said they had licenced ammunition - Keith said it was "only a few sniper rifles".
"By the way you never did get back to us how 7.62mm x 51 ammunition would fit into weapons that fire 7.62mm x 39 rounds"
Did you ever get round to proving that they were the weapons used, or even, the only weapons used?
Or what weapons they were trained with, Or whether they were regular or irregular torrops
Silly question - you never attempt to prove anything, arrogantly expecting us to take your word for everything.
I don't believe your pronouncements - you tell too many lies
It doesn't matter anyway - Assad was known to be a torturing, murdering dictator - he should have been sold nothing.
"What gap left by the "West" Jom?"
THIS GAP
"How is that "appeasement"?"
See above
"Islamic Terrorism was in existence long before there was any talk of regime change in Syria. "
Isis had no influence before Syria made it plain that the West was going to do sfa to stop the massacres
"I think Bonzo meant "you're playing that tune again", Jim."
I know what he meant - try a sense of humour implant.
That tune will remain until you bunch of right-wing extremists come up with an alternative.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 07:42 PM

Jim Carroll - Date: 18 Jul 16 - 03:37 PM

So Jom still unable to produce any proof whatsoever that those useless 7.62 x 51 mm rounds were ever delivered to Syria. You couldn't provide evidence of their delivery then and you cannot provide evidence now.

You have no explanation at all of why a country would buy ammunition that would not be suitable for the guns they issue to their Armed Forces and their Police Units by dint of the fact that they simply would be incapable of being fired.

"You bent over backwards to claim first they weren't sold ammunition by Britian"

Why can you not spell Britain correctly Jom - is that a demonstration of your attention to detail? Or are you simply incapable, I suspect the latter. By the way they were not sold ammunition by Britain. Although asked many times to prove that Britain did sell Assad arms, you have singularly failed to prove that they did. What the British Government did do was to grant a private citizen of the EU an export licence to sell the Syrian Government some 7.62mm ammunition, my guess You my little Anglophobic friend have not been able to prove otherwise.

the bullets were too small - Not got to much of a handle on this have you, you moron, God knows it has been explained to you often enough ( You've even been shown photographs), are you really that thick that you cannot grasp the significance of it - a 7.62mm NATO round is 12 mm too long to fit into an AK-47 Magazine and breech, in short an AK-47 cannot fire an NATO 7.62mm round. So there would be absolutely no point at all in the Syrians buying this ammunition that you can provide no proof that they ever actually bought. Persist with this if you must, but have you any idea at all what a complete and utter fool you are making of yourself?

"You gave the nod to Britain selling Assad chemicals capable of manufacturing weapons because they were also used as an ingredient for toothpaste (around the time he was gassing his opponents)."

Please show me where "I gave the nod" as you put it. "x" amount of sodium fluoride was provided to two Syrian companies in 2010 ostensibly to produce "y" grams of toothpaste, investigation by the Government Department responsible for granting the export licence reveals that the two Syrian companies did in fact produce "y" amount of toothpaste so you tell me what was the sodium flouride used for making toothpaste or making Sarin Gas two years later? My money is on the fact that it went to making toothpaste.

"You kept mum when it was suggested that Britain should have brought pressure on Assad by confiscating his property - you may as well wear a tee-shirt with his head on it.

Really? Why? Many, many villains put the title of property bought by the proceeds of their ill-gotten gains in other peoples names. Give us a list of properties owned in the UK by Bashir-al Assad. Then show me how and when I was supposed to have given this "nod" - you won't do that because you can't you dissembling wanker

"Did you ever get round to proving that they were the weapons used, or even, the only weapons used?"

You were provided with a link that detailed what weapons were used by the Syrian Army and Police Force - they get their weapons for Russia. NATO ammunition is useless if those are the weapons used.

"you never attempt to prove anything, arrogantly expecting us to take your word for everything."

Ehmmmm NO Jom as you and your fellow travellers have said that you never believe a word I say I leave you to check it out for yourselves - only thing is you and your pals can never be bothered to do so - others on this forum do and see what compete and utter prats you are making of yourselves.

"I don't believe your pronouncements - you tell too many lies"

Yet over all these years you have not been able to expose one such lie - why is that JOM?

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 03:27 AM

"So Jom still unable to produce any proof whatsoever that those useless 7.62 x 51 mm rounds were ever delivered to Syria."
I never set out to prove such a thing; why should I?
The fact that Britain was prepared to licence the sale of weapons, ammunition, chemicals, riot control equipment, armoured cars, equipment that might be used for torture..... and all the other goods licenced to be sold to Syria, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain... and all our other "valued customers" is all that needs to be proven, and there is no question of that.
Within weeks of the Arab Spring demonstrations breaking out, Cameron launched a massive Arms Sale aimed specifically at some of these States - how do you think people trying to shake of the scum that rules these States are going to react to that?
Actions like these breed support for groups like Isis - you have more or less accepted this, yet you continue to defend them.
Your bullying bluster in all of this is pathetic - you have moved through half a dozen stages - from 'this sale never existed' to "the ammunition purchased was the wrong size" - each stage contradictory and each one unsubstantiated by anything resembling proof.
As you do in every argument, you make up 'facts' and expect them to be believed
When challenged, you make up more 'facts' and you attempt to bully and sneer them through.
Then eventually, you disappear from the argument altogether, then maybe come back when you think the coast is clear - you are transparently pathetic - your style of argument is as unimaginative as your childish "Jom" name-calling.
Both you and Keith are a pair of caricatured, blimpish, flag-wagging Little Englanders who have earned nothing and appear to have read nothing - Keith, at least has had the honesty to admit his ignorance and disinterest - you still strive for a knowledgeable, manly image.
Pathetic.
You are not believed because they don't accept that image - you are not taken seriously.
"Why can you not spell Britain correctly Jom - "
Typos again - pathetic!
In fact, I can spell reasonably well; I am a lousy typist with a fondness for an idiosyncratic keyboard.
Why are you a blustering bully who tries to bulldoze arguments through rather than putting them forward in a manner in which they can be debated?
Inferiority complex, oppressive home life - perhaps it's in the breeding, attention-seeking - I would guess it's a little of all of these things.
You come over as an unpleasantly insecure thug who desperately wants to be respected and feared.
For crying out loud, either grow up or go away - you impress no-one with your invented 'knowledge'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 05:24 AM

""So Jom still unable to produce any proof whatsoever that those useless 7.62 x 51 mm rounds were ever delivered to Syria."
I never set out to prove such a thing; why should I?"

Why should you Jom??? Possibly because you came out with the unsubstantiated and unproven claim that British weapons were killing Syrians in Homs you prat - That claim was challenged by both Keith A and myself. You were unable to provide any substantiation for your ridiculous claim and then started wriggling - you have continued to wriggle ever since - you are the one that has changed your stance continually over this issue as every claim put forward by you has been exposed as complete and utter misrepresentation or a bare faced lie.

The stand taken by Keith A and myself has been extremely constant:

1: We do not believe any ammunition was ever sent to Syria in 2009 as the ammunition was the wrong type to be of any use to the Syrian Army or police force.

2: The amount of ammunition covered by the export licence was minute as well as being useless, HAD it been delivered in 2009 then it would in all probability have been expended by 2011.

You claimed that a report from Amnesty International stated that electrical equipment supplied by the British was used to torture prisoners of the Assad regime in Syria - I read the report you referred to and quoted the only passage in it that refers to the use of electricity for torture - There is no mmention at all of what you claimed the report stated - in short Jim Carroll you told a bare-faced lie and were caught out in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 06:08 AM

"Why should you Jom??? Possibly because you came out with the unsubstantiated and unproven claim that British weapons were killing Syrians in Homs you prat "
Still riven with insecurity, I see
I have established that they were licences, despite your claims that they weren't - you appeard to have accepted that and have moved back to claiming that they were the "wrong size" - without proof, of course.
"The stand taken by Keith A and myself has been extremely constant:"
You have waffled through six different and contradictory excuses - I suppose, given your record, that's "constant" - no licence, licence withdrawn, licence granted but no weapons were sent, sporting ammunition, now, wrong size - how ***** constant is that?
"! The amount of ammunition covered by the export licence was minute as well as being useless,"
What amount - neither of us ever came up with details of how much was sent - you feckin' eejit.
"The amount of ammunition covered by the export licence was minute "
How much was it exactly - if it was not licenced, or licenced and not sent or the licence was withdrawn.....!!!!
You're a rather desperate head case, aren't you?
I read the report "
No you didn;'t - link us to it now.
Sheesh.....!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 07:38 AM

Your original unsubstantiated and unproven claim was that British weapons were killing Syrians in Homs

Keith A and myself asked you substantiate that claim and back it up - as usual you could not do that.

Links to an article in the Daily Mail was the best you could offer and it was from that link that Keith A and I pointed out to you that the British Government had supplied nothing apart from an export licence. The article also stated that it was not known if the ammunition detailed was ever delivered. Which makes the following the second barefaced lie that you have come out with on this thread:

"I have established that they were licences, despite your claims that they weren't"

If you want to challenge any of that I would be more than delighted to dig out the relevant posts, yours, mine Keith A's. We have been through that sort of exercise on another lie you told on this forum and you ended up with egg all over your face - only too delighted to repeat the performance.

The licence that Keith a and I pointed you to mentioned the monetary value of the ammunition to be exported from that you can deduce the quantity of ammunition being talked about. Up until a year ago my main hunting rifle could fire NATO 7.62 x 51 ammunition and I used that for practice ammunition so I know exactly what ex-NATO 7.62 rounds sell for, I know exactly what the gunsmith I bought it from paid for it and what the disposals department sold it for. From that I can arrive at a pretty good estimate of the number of rounds involved.

Link does not work it says the page cannot be found but you get to it easily enough if you just Google Amnesty International Report March 2012

This is all it says about torture involving electricity:

"Electric shock torture appears to be widely used in interrogations. Former detainees described three methods: dousing the victim or cell floor with water, then electro-shocking the victim through the water; the “electric chair”, where electrodes are connected to parts of the body; and the use of electric prods."

No mention of the UK no mention of any equipment supplied by the UK - Jim Carroll you lie like a pig in shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 01:24 PM

"Keith A and myself asked you substantiate that claim and back it up - as usual you could not do that."
You've been given the documentation for the sale which is why you changed it to "licence was rescinded". then "order was never fulfilled", then, "was only for sporting rifles", and a few more down to "wrong size ammo"
"Links to an article in the Daily Mail was the best you could offer"
No - you were linked to a record of the order
Whatecver I linked to YOU HAVE NEVER LINKED TO ANY OF YOUR STATEMENTS AND HAVE REFUSED TO DO SO
I asked you to ling me to the details of the order - you refuse to do so again.
I asked you to link me to the Amnesty report - you refuse to do so.
I've given you all this - finished here
You are a pair of lying toerags - fact
Game over
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 06:39 PM

Still wriggling Carroll.

Your original contention was that British weapons were killing people in Homs. That myth was exploded the weapons that have been killing people in Syria have been supplied by RUSSIA, and no matter how hard you try my little scouse Anglophobe there is absolutely no way as long as your arse points downwards on this forum are you going to be allowed to state unchallenged that anything different is the case.

Best scuttle from this thread Carroll because every single post of yours that backs up what I have said is about to be displayed for all to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 08:22 PM

"Still wriggling Carroll."
Still refusing to answer questions Woodenpecker.
My original contention was that ammunition was sold to Assad - your dozy mate turned them miraculously into "a few sniper rifles" and said it was OK.
I have no idea which ammunition wwas sole any more than you have the faintest idea of what was sold or what weapons are used to kill Syrians or what were ued to train them
You denied the licence existed, then you said it did, but it was recinded, then it was never used, then it was, but they were for sporting rifles, then the ammunition was the wrong size to be used by the Army, then Britain "needed a crystal ball to know of Assad's record - now you have gone the full circle - they never existed and they were the wrong size, the ammunition was being used by the freedom fighters, it never existed (again) - of, and that ammunition did not count as weapons - and round, and round, and round, and round
"Best scuttle from this thread Carroll because every single post of yours that backs up what I have said is about to be displayed for all to see."
Yeah - I can see by your consistency and the numnber of links you ahve put up that you have me truly beaten!!!
Perhaps you might administer the coup de grace by telling us where your itinerant workers are going to live - or maybe you have me beten on that one too!!!!
At ease washer-up Woodcock
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 09:05 PM

The stand taken by Keith A and myself has been extremely constant:

Absolutely! A constant stream of bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 03:48 AM

Jim Carroll - 19 Jul 16 - 08:22 PM
"My original contention was that ammunition was sold to Assad"

Really?? Then perhaps you could explain this:

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 05:39 AM

"So you intend to continue to ignore the horrors of Homs brought about by sniper rifles sold by Britain - specifically for use on the civilian population"

As previously stated Carroll you lie like a pig in shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 08:23 AM

"So you intend to continue to ignore the horrors of Homs brought about by sniper rifles sold by Britain - specifically for use on the civilian population""
That was erroneously picked up by me from Keith's description of sniper rifles - up to that point I had only traced a shipment of military equipment, which turned out to be ammunition.
It doesn't matter anyway - sniper rifles/ammunition/chemicals/armoured cars/riot control equipment/electronic equipment Amnesty identified as being used for torture.... should never have been sent to Syria after the Amnesty report had been made public.
"
As previously stated Carroll you lie like a pig in shit."
I do not lie - I do not invent things, as you do and I do not refuse to answer points made - as you pair do constantly and all your small minded name-calling has never shown that I do, you goose-stepping frier-upper.
Answer the poins and explain why you have given over half a dozen reasons whyy this shipment was not made.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 09:00 AM

Jim Carroll - 20 Jul 16 - 08:23 AM

More wriggling Carroll, and once again your inability to recognise the significance of time lines and chronology make you look a complete and utter idiot:

"It doesn't matter anyway - sniper rifles/ammunition/chemicals/armoured cars/riot control equipment/electronic equipment Amnesty identified as being used for torture.... should never have been sent to Syria after the Amnesty report had been made public."

1: No evidence at all that any of the above items were ever sent to Syria. The only export licence ever mentioned was for £30,000 worth of small arms ammunition.

2: The year the licence was granted was 2009.

3: The unrest and protests started in Syria on the 11th March 2011

4: The Amnesty International Report was published in March 2012.

Care to explain how a report published in 2012 could possibly be considered by personnel issuing export licences in 2009?

You lie and make things up constantly, you keep getting caught out doing it.

Perhaps you could give us some examples where either Keith A or myself have lied or made things up - We both know the chances of you doing that are slim and none.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 09:29 AM

"More wriggling Carroll,"
This is Keith's posting identifying and excusing sniper rifles being sent to Syria at the time their sipers were cutting down the citizens of Homs.
"But why do you ONLY criticise Britain?
Not Russia.
Not China.
Not Syria.
Britain is hardly in the same league.
You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.
The only other "weapons" supplied were armour plated buses, tear gas and water cannon."
"No evidence at all that any of the above items were ever sent to Syria."
It doesn't matter =- Britain granted an export licence
"The year the licence was granted was 2009."
Long after the Amnesty report on massacres and torture was published.
"The unrest and protests started in Syria on the 11th March 2011"
And they were a result of the above mentioned massacres and torture.
"The Amnesty International Report was published in March 2012."
Only the one reporting on the atrocities following the Arab Spring; the later report was - the earlier one describing the massacres and torture was much earlier - the point was made in the press was that Britain continue to deal in military equipment after the regime had been exposed.
"You lie and make things up constantly, you keep getting caught out doing it."
Nope - I leave rhat to you and your fascist friends.
"Perhaps you could give us some examples where either Keith A or myself have lied or made things up"
I have been pointing out your lies and misinformation for at least three threads now - you have not responded so far and I see no reason you will do so now, especially after you've painted yourself into another corner.
The six contradictory reasons why this sale didn't take place (I've listed them interminably) is lying on a grand scale in my book, and you refuse to to respond to that
" a complete and utter idiot: "
Your crudely loutish and ongoing behavior puts you squarely in the gutter where you belong.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 09:36 AM

AMNESTY 2001
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 09:42 AM

SYRIA'S LONG HISTORY OF TORTURE "
"The practice of torture has a long history in Syria and was common during the three decades of former President Hafez al-Assad’s rule. Syrians shared thousands of accounts of torture and the mistreatment of political prisoners in detention. Several novels were written on the abuses in Tadmur Prison alone. No real changes were brought to the security forces, detention conditions, or even the justice sector after Bashar al-Assad, Hafez’s son, succeeded to power in Syria. The practice of torture continued - something I faced and witnessed myself during the few months I spent at Sednaya Military prison in 2006"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 12:21 PM

Ah so I take it Jim that you cannot provide any examples of either Keith A or myself lying or making stuff up.

Still no evidence or mention of electrical equipment supplied by Britain being used to torture anybody.

The Amnesty Report you previously quoted from was published in March 2012.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 01:09 PM

"Ah so I take it Jim that you cannot provide any examples of either Keith A or myself lying or making stuff up."
Yopu constantly make stuff up - Democracy in Britain in the first half of the 19th century, Liverpool well of at the beginning of world war one - virtually everything you wrote about the famine and 1916 - all made up it's why you refuse to link your statements - they have no substance in fact
Your bullshit about what weapons the Syrians used to train their snipers - you were asked to prove it - you refused.
You invent virtually every statement you put up.
Keith is more subtle - he carefully selects out-of context cut-'n-pastes.
"The Amnesty Report you previously quoted from was published in March 2012."
My claim from the beginning was that Syria's reputation on human rights dayed back as far as his predecessors, which is why he shoulf never have been sold weapons and equipment
Stop wriggling
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 06:01 PM

Good heavens Carroll your denial of historical fact is astounding.

" Jim Carroll - 20 Jul 16 - 01:09 PM

So I - invent virtually every statement you put up." - do I?

The 1832 Reform Act was just a figment of my imagination was it?

1: "Several historians credit the Reform Act 1832 with launching modern democracy in Britain. G. M. Trevelyan hails 1832 as the watershed moment at which "'the sovereignty of the people' had been established in fact, if not in law". - Source: G.M. Trevelyan

2: "Evans (1996) emphasises that the Reform Act "opened a door on a new political world". Although Grey's intentions were conservative, Evans says, and the 1832 Act gave the aristocracy an additional half-century's control of Parliament, the Act nevertheless did open constitutional questions for further development. Evans argues it was the 1832 Act, not the later reforms of 1867, 1884, or 1918, that were decisive in bringing representative democracy to Britain. Evans concludes the Reform Act marked the true beginning of the development of a recognisably modern political system" - Source: Eric J. Evans "The Forging of the Modern State Early Industrial Britain, 1783–1870 (2nd ed. 1996) p. 229

So due to the Reform Act of 1832 and the further Reform Acts that followed it did make Britain more democratic - Not made up at all eh?

Liverpool 1900 - 1938:
During the first part of the 20th century Liverpool continued to expand, pulling in immigrants from Europe. In 1903 an International Exhibition took place in Edge Lane. In 1904, the building of the Anglican Cathedral began, and by 1916 the three Pier Head buildings, including the Liver Building, were complete. This period marked the pinnacle of Liverpool's economic success, when it regarded itself as the "second city" of the British Empire. - Source: Belchem, John, ed. (2006). Liverpool 800: Culture, Character & History. ISBN 1-84631-035-0.

It appears I didn't make that one up either Jom.

On World War One the absolute howlers you came out with were legion, perhaps we could start a thread dealing with them - the famous Kitchener resignation - the special squads of military policemen who were tasked with the summary execution of British soldiers who didn't get out of the trenches quick enough (Yet oddly enough not one single soldier executed in this manner could be named - I say oddly because of all those supposed witnesses)

Everything written by both Keith A and myself related to the "Great War", the Famine and 1916 can all be verified and substantiated - which is more than can be said for the drivel you churned out

"Your bullshit about what weapons the Syrians used to train their snipers - you were asked to prove it - you refused."

No secret at all that the Syrian Army and Police use Russian weapons - just google Syrian armed Forces or Syrian Army and you get links to every type of weapon they use - 7.62 x 51mm rounds do not fit in Russian guns that fire 7.62 x 39mm rounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:15 AM

Jim, you just quoted an old post of mine.

This is the only sentence relevant to current discussion.

"You(Jim) have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles."

Note, I only heard of sniper rifles from you.
My mistake was that your long, rambling posts confused the issue and it was another country altogether that according to you received sniper rifles.
No arms at all were supplied to Syria by UK.

I apologised at the time and corrected you every time you rehashed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 09:10 AM

"I only heard of sniper rifles from you."
The first mention of sniper rifles to Syria was from you - go and check
I had no idea what the shipment was.
The "only" bit, at the time when snipers were betting cigarettes for anybody who could shoot through a child in arms and hit the mother was is as inexcusable then as it is now - it is a demonstration of how self-proclaimed "Christians" like yourself value the cost of human life - especially when it is to defend the sale of weapons to mass-murderers.
"No arms at all were supplied to Syria by UK."
Depends on what you mean by "arms" - bullets for sniper rifles faclitate the use of arms, armoured cars, tear gas, water cannons and riot control equipment when used against protesting civilians are weapons - all supplied by Britain.
Most disgusting of all, Britain sold chemicals capable of being used to create weapons to a dictator with a reputation for torture and mass murder (revealed when Assad was subjecting Syrians to Chemical attacks); possibly assisting him to build up a massive arsenal of chemical weapons so large that he can legitimately claim that Syria cannot afford to decommission them and is now demanding that those demanding their destruction should pay for it.   
"The 1832 Reform Act was just a figment of my imagination was it?"
No - nor was the fact that workers were being transported for attempting to form Trades Unions, the most intense and controversial seizures of public land were taking place, the right to impress men to serve in wars continued to be in operation until 1853, the rights of enfranchement were still being resisted violently, and the idea that women (around half the population) should have a right to vote would not be considered until the outbreak of World War One.
In rural Britain, during the poaching wars, men were being transported in their thousands for taking game from the newly-enclosed estates and transportation for the most menial of crimes was still commonplace for the most menial of crimes up to 1868.
The farce of what few electoral rights the population of Britain had made the names of novelists of the time, such as Dickens and Thackeray
Democracy my arse.
As far as 1914 Liverpool is concerned, this arose from your attempts to make liars of soldiers like Tommy Kenny who claimed they joined up to avoid the then rampant unel=mploymen, the poor wages and the appalling conditions they were undergoing at the time they enlisted - you had already dismissed what he had said of his experiences in WW1 as "lies", because "soldiers tell lies".
Tommy described in detail the problems he had finding work to help support a family living in appalling conditions.
The main work in Liverpool was on the docks were the humiliating "pen" system was operational - men herded into sheds daily and selected by an overseer - the unfortunate ones sent home and told to come back the following day.
Work elsewhere was scarce and poorly paid, housing conditions were notoriously bad and industrial unrest was rife and met with extreme violence by the authorities 0- even the Liverpool police force came out on strike.
You seem to regard prosperity by how much money is being made by the wealthy, irrespective of how the ordinary people were being forced to survive.
You have proved beyong any doubt by your latest statement of how well-off Britain is today - you stay silent on the massive gap between rich and poor - If the bankers are doing well, then all's well with the world.
Why not try responding to historical and social facts yourself
Jim Carroll

.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 12:06 PM

Carroll - have you ever heard about a thing called perspective? I ask because you seem to suffer from a total lack of it. One explanation for that could be your blatant rascism, bigotry and rabid Anglophobia born of you self-loathing for the land of your birth. You born in Liverpool call yourself Irish - a little idiosyncrasy that you picked up from Miller/MacColl born in Salford, yet tried to convince people he had been born in Scotland up near Perth IIRC.

How was the rest of the world getting on with democracy in the early 1800s Jim? All sweetness and light was it? If so then there must have been some other explanation for the Revolutions of 1830, 1848, etc, etc.

"No arms at all were supplied to Syria by UK."

A statement that is true made to refute unsubstantiated claims by Jim Carroll to the contrary. As proof of the veracity of his claim Carroll offered up newspaper articles that when read contradicted the Claims that Carroll was trying to make. The "supplied to Syria by the UK" infers that it was the British Government doing the supplying - No evidence whatsoever of that ever happening and that has been continually pointed out to him.

"Most disgusting of all, Britain sold chemicals capable of being used to create weapons to a dictator with a reputation for torture and mass murder (revealed when Assad was subjecting Syrians to Chemical attacks); possibly assisting him to build up a massive arsenal of chemical weapons so large that he can legitimately claim that Syria cannot afford to decommission them and is now demanding that those demanding their destruction should pay for it."

"Capable of being" does not = that were

"Possibly" does not mean "actually" or "definitely"

Prior to 2011 had chemical weapons been used in Syria against its civilian population? I don't think so.

Last consignment of chemicals sold happened in 2010. The incident that Carroll is referring to occurred in 2013. The BIS checked and their investigation revealed that the quantities sent to two companies in Syria matched the quantities of toothpaste those two companies produced and that there were no grounds for supposing the chemicals were used to manufacture Sarin Gas.

Jim Carroll then trots out a statement regarding the destruction of the chemical weapons held by Assad's regime that gives one the impression that the job still remains to be done. This is classic Carroll misrepresentation - On 23 June 2014, the last declared chemical weapons were shipped out of Syria for destruction - Reported by the BBC on the 25th June 2014

Ah Tommy Kenny, the man you and your pals interviewed and didn't bother to check one single thing he told you. This was the man you originally claimed had seen special squads of Military Policemen carrying out summary executions of British soldiers who didn't get out of their trenches quick enough, yet for some reason he couldn't name a single victim or perpetrator. It then turns out as you developed the story of Tommy Kenny that he was an artilleryman who had lost part of an ear during counter-battery fire - Only thing that told us all Carroll was that as an artilleryman he would have been nowhere near any trench to see anything of the likes of what you described. Both Keith A and myself looked long and hard for even the vaguest hint of any such instances of summary executions - there were none. At one point you had the unmitigated gall to suggest that because such a summary execution was depicted in a BBC dramatisation then that should be taken as proof positive that such things must have happened.

By the way Jom I see you've ducked out of giving us any explanation why you think that wealth has got something to do with equality.

Mind you I suppose that before you could do that you would have to define what you meant by equality, Carroll's definition would be that everybody has to be equally rich, which of course is complete and utter bullshit. In reality Jom life is not fair, everybody is not equal and that has always been the case and it always will be the case. The metrics that can be used to determine equality are numerous and extremely varied - talking here about attainable equality related to things in life that are important not material equality that you and Shaw seem to set such store by.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 12:13 PM

Question.

When has Jim ever indicated he was Irish.

He lives in Ireland he has stated that. He comes from an Irish ancestry, he has stated that. But I cannot recall him ever posting that he himself was Irish.

If he has I am sure you will reference to the specific post and I look forward to reading it.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 01:15 PM

"Carroll - "
Woodencock
The rest of that sentence is just insecure invective - interesting taht others are beginning to comment on your arrogant behavior elsewhere
Can'rt you settle your domestic problems before you post here?
"How was the rest of the world getting on with democracy in the early 1800s Jim?"
What the fuck has that got to do with anything - you ere the one who described the period as "democratic"
"A statement that is true made to refute unsubstantiated claims by Jim Carroll "You've been given a list of what wa supplied - prove that they weren't
"British Government doing the supplying "
No it doesn't - Britain licenced the exports - they should have prevented them
"Capable of being" does not = that were"
Doesn't make any difference - no terrorist, torturing, murdering regime should ever be sold anything capable of inflicting their terrorism on anybody.
Britain was indicted for the sales at the time Assad was using chemical weapons.
The risk of any despotic regie developing a chemical weapons stockpile is always a factor to be taken into consideration - Israel being a case in point
What you claim I said about Tommy Kenny is made up bullshit and uyuo knowe it - you've lied about this before and had pointed out exactly what I've said - stick this one on your list of porkies told by you and Keith
I've never ducked out of explaining anything - I don't do a runner from questions I'm asked, unlike you.
The wealth gap has nothing to do with equality - the distribution of available wealth and the priority given to how that wealth is distributed has everything to do with poverty and hardship.
I thought everybody knew that - I forgot about the lobotomy.
Now - on unanswered questions - are you going to explaining where the itinerant cyclists looking for work are going to live or what you are going to do with all these scroungers?
No? - thought not.
Why do you patriots hate the British people as much as you do?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 01:34 PM

Thersa May. her first mistake was to appoint Johnson as a minister.She was clearly watching herback, and keeping him where she can control him but not thinking about the national interest, he is IMO unsutiable for the job
The best person in my opinion to deal with this situation is Jeremy Corbyn

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 01:53 PM

Reform Act 1832 - Great Britain became more democratic is roughly what was originally claimed. Perspective Jim and the fact that in life all things are relative. By the early to mid 1800s Jom, Great Britain was a damned sight more democratic than most nations on this planet.

Jim Carroll - 19 Jul 16 - 08:22 PM
"My original contention was that ammunition was sold to Assad"

Really?? Then perhaps you could explain this:

Subject: RE: BS: Homs horror
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 05:39 AM

"So you intend to continue to ignore the horrors of Homs brought about by sniper rifles SOLD BY BRITAIN - specifically for use on the civilian population"

As previously stated Carroll you lie like a pig in shit.

Britain was indicted for the sales at the time Assad was using chemical weapons. - Indicted by whom numbnuts, just more Jim Carroll made-up-shit. I take it that you do know what indicted means Jom. Who filed the charges and in what Court was the British Government arraigned - and how on earth did they keep it quiet. Would be one hell of a charge to make stick, halted all exports to Syria in 2010, led the push for a similar EU wide ban on exports to Syria in 2011 and the events you are talking about were only reported in 2014.

"What you claim I said about Tommy Kenny is made up bullshit and uyuo knowe it"

Now then we've done this before, do you actually want me to dig all that out and prove you wrong YET AGAIN???

"The wealth gap has nothing to do with equality" Says Jom, which kind of begs the question just what the hell was he on about when he quoted a comment of mine stating that their was greater equality in the world now than before then posted a link related to the Wealth Gap in the UK and invited me to comment on it? Bizarre is not the word for it.

"the itinerant cyclists" - Already answered Jom.

You are flailing now Jom - just about time you stamped off in high dudgeon.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 02:35 PM

Jim,
"I only heard of sniper rifles from you."
The first mention of sniper rifles to Syria was from you - go and check

No.
As I just said I heard of them from you.
You posted about them twice and I foolishly thought that because the discussion was about Syria that you were referring to Syria.

I apologised for that easy mistake to make at the time, and have reminded you it was a mistake every one of the dozens of times that you have tried to use it to suit your nasty agenda.

You are a thoroughly devious and dishonest man.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 02:37 PM

"Reform Act 1832 - Great Britain became more democratic is roughly what was originally claimed."
Nobody gets rough
er - what was happening then had sweet fa to do with democracy.
"As previously stated Carroll you lie like a pig in shit. "
As I said, taken up from Keith's description of the shipment.
Of course they were ordeed to be used - not like the "never ordered", "never licensed" "licences but never sent", "only for sporting guns", "the wrong size".... and the myriad excuses you gave.
"Indicted by whom"
Generally after the press had revealed the facts
"!Now then we've done this before, do you actually want me to dig all that out and prove you wrong YET AGAIN???"
First time for everything - we could fill the next six months hurling each others mistakes backward and forward, dig out whatever you want
"just about time you stamped off in high dudgeon."
Don't you just wish!!!
I very seldom walk away from arguments - you do a runner each time you find yourself in trouble, liker the spineless prick you are
"Already answered Jom."
Liar
"like a pig in shit. "
Your spinlessness extends into your permanent childish name-calling
We both kown that you would never have trhe balls act in public the way you behave here - your postings are little more that poisonous internet hate-mail.
If you acted the way you do on thiis forum to peoples faces you'd go home with your teeth in your pocket.
Great thing to be said for anonymity from behind a keyboard.
Grow up, you cowardly creep.
At least Keith (in his hand-wringing Uriah Heep manner, says what he believes without a torrent of mindless abuse - all in the breeding, I suppose
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 04:22 AM

"we could fill the next six months hurling each others mistakes backward and forward"

Only problem with that Carroll is that so far it has been a bit of a "one-way-street" - your mistakes have been detailed and exposed as myth on numerous occasions - you have yet to identify one made by either Keith A or myself.

You have accused us of much but provided substantive evidence for nothing. When asked to provide such, you huff and you puff, then attempt to distract and divert.

"what was happening then {1832} had sweet fa to do with democracy"

So redrafting constituency boundaries so that the new cities created by the industrial revolution were represented in Parliament had nothing to do with furthering and advancing democracy in Great Britain?

Increasing the size of the electorate by 60% had nothing to do with furthering and advancing democracy in Great Britain?

To "Lie like a pig in shit" is a naval expression Jom and has nothing to do with any farmyard animal.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 05:53 AM

Just pack it in you moron you would-be cyber bully.
If you can't make a point without personal abuse why not take up hate-mailing as a profession - I'm sure you would find a way to make a profit out of it.
You nause up every thread you post to with your unjustiufed arrogance.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May, failure and hypocrite
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 02:43 PM

Just to be pedantic for a moment and to allow myself the immense pleasure of perhaps correcting Mr T, should the expression not be "To lye like a pig in shit".....This expression was often used in reference to slovenly or lazy individuals in rural Scotland.

Strangely enough I had a labourer once who had worked most of his life as a swineherd.......he used to get angry at this expression saying....."Pigs ur no' durty animals, thur beds ur as clean as yer ain".... :0)