BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?

Subject: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: maggiethecat
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 06:07 AM

Forgive me if this has already been done to death and I just didn't read it, but I'd really like to know the smoking status of mudcatters and also if you have any comments you want to make on the subject.

I will post again later myself, but thought I'd get this rolling.

Thanks!-maggie

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 06:16 AM

I am a non smoker and Market Rasen Folk Club is also non smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 06:24 AM

I am a non-smoker. I find the current hounding of smokers fairly nauseating.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Sooz
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 06:46 AM

I am a non-smoker and so is Gainsborough Folk Club.
Personally, I find smoky places nauseating.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 07:16 AM

NON

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 09:21 AM

I'm a smoker. I find second-hand smoke nauseating. WHen I want to smoke I go outside. I avoid places where smoking is still permitted indoors. And I refuse to use "smoking areas" where the people are packed in like sardines and the air is rank and sickening.

I usually go for a walk in nature instead, and keep the butts (filters) in my pocket till I find a garbage can.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 09:50 AM

Smoker who should stop, since I have emphasyma. On the other hand, it helps keep me from singing, to the advantage of the world at large.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 09:54 AM

Maggiethecat: there are indeed many other threads. One("extreme nicotine withdrawal" I think or some such phrase) about giving up, and there was a long one recently about whether pubs and venues should be non-smoking. Can't do blue clickies, but I'm sure they would be easy to find. The "giving up" thread is good, you can find a few kindred spirits trying to kick the habit, which is good for mutual support.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 10:34 AM

non

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 10:50 AM

Former and trying not to be self-righteous about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 11:09 AM

I am an ex-smoker and have often said quitting was the hardest thing I have ever done. Emphysema is a pure bear -- it is awful to watch and even more awful to experience, like being slowly choked to death.

I will never forget the image of my sainted mother with an oxygen mask in one had, because she had so fouled her lungs that she wasn't able to get enough oxygen, and a lit Kent in the other. A strong-willed woman who couldn't find the necessary to quit, and who didn't have the benefit of those "Commit" tablets which finally got me over the hump.

Glad to be free of that devil for certain.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: khandu
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 11:19 AM

As of 6 weeks ago, I became a non-smoker!! I have so far gained 7 wonderful pounds! I feel much better & I think I think clearer!

K

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:15 PM

Non-smoker, brought up in a family of smokers. Watched my 30-a-day mum drown from the fluid in her lungs, caused by emphysema. Constantly gob-smacked at the sheer suicidal stupidity of smokers, many of whom are otherwise sensible and intelligent people, and flabbergasted that our laws still allow them to kill others as well as themselves. As we move into an age where a parent who smacks a child will be declared a criminal, how can smokers, who wilfully poison those around them, be allowed to get away with it? Something stinks (as do smokers, in my experience).

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:51 PM

Johnny, you're so incredibly pleasant and persuasive I think I'll quit right now ... just to please YOU!

WOuldn't want to see you to get your blood pressure up over a stupid, stinky suicidal murderer like myself, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Ellenpoly
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:04 PM

Strollin' Johnny, I am getting closer and closer to being in agreement with you.

I just had to leave the first pub I'd gone to in 10 years, because I wanted so much to spend time with freda underhill, here from Australia, and other mudcatters, some I was also meeting for the first time.

As I walked in the door I knew I was in trouble, and as time went on, I first kept going outside to take great gulps of air, and then finally sat off by myself in front of the propped-open door semi-leaning out. I felt sicker and sicker and more and more frustrated.

After an hour and a half of pure misery, I finally made my goodbyes and left. It was really sad for me, and I certainly didn't feel like opening my mouth to sing, or even chat.

No more. Never again. I buried one love from his four-pack a day habit, and now I've had to walk away from something I had really been looking forward to. I'm home, all the clothes I wore today are in the washing machine.

Smokers affect everyone around them. That's what makes it different than any other habit I can think of. I have just lost my last bit of tolerance for it. (And for those of you who are kind enough to take your habit outside, thank you, but just know you still smell of it and taste of it.)

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:19 PM

Thanks, Ellenpoly.

If I ever meet you, I'll promise I'll never force you to lick me and I'll stay at least 100 yards away, ok?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Alice
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:27 PM

non smoker and avoid all smoking locations

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:30 PM

I quit smoking when I was 13 years old.

I took two puffs, and I quit when I was 13.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:41 PM

Thanks to all of you for your moving accounts. You said it much better than I could have.

I have had damage to my lungs because my step father smoked while I was in his presence. I didn't choose it. I consider it a form of child abuse.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:53 PM

A non-smoker. The Middle Bar in the Anchor in Sidmouth was a "Thank you for not smoking" place this festival and a lot of people have said how much nicer it was

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:00 PM

Former smoker 36 years.
Tobacco free since Jan. 2003.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:09 PM

A friend of mine has a cap that says "IF YOU DONT SMOKE, I WONT FART."

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 03:17 PM

Amen MBS Lynne--

Jan and I were also at the Middle Bar this year and it was dramatically better than in previous years on the smoking issue.   In past years we used to sit on the floor, hoping that the smoke would (as it usually did) rise. But it was a problem when you stood for the "standing choruses" . If Ireland can make the drastic change required, I'm sure the UK can too.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 03:26 PM

Guest,Ellenpolly:

Yeah, but you sure make the point for those who claim pubs would lose business if they banned smoking,

I just had to leave the first pub I'd gone to in 10 years, because I wanted so much to spend time with freda underhill, here from Australia, and other mudcatters, some I was also meeting for the first time.

Your first pub in 10 years, the smokers are probably there most nights, who do you think the landlord is going to support?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 03:36 PM

Both pubs in my town (Orlando, FL) that I visit do a bit of food along this beer, etc. Last year, to stay a smoking friendly establishment, the could have just dropped the food. Instead - both kept the food and went smoke-free. I've asked recently, they're both doing fine - in fact food sales are up along with beer because more people like the food without the smoke.

On the other hand, if God didn't want us to smoke, how come the trachiotomy tube sticking out of the necks of throat cancer patients is the perfect size for a cigarette?

I've never smoked, and because my mom was director of the local Lung Association, I used to bring slices of diesased lungs to school for show and tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,PERFUME IN THE HEATHER
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 03:36 PM

The pleasure of entering an Irish Pub and listen to the music and song without being suffocated by selfish cancer producing smokers, the rest of the world wake up and join the civilised Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 03:38 PM

I think the point for Ellenpoly, and certainly for me, is that being exposed to a room full of tobacco smoke for more than a few minutes at a stretch actually does make us physically ill. I limit the amount of time I spend in places where people smoke for the same reason. It makes me physically sick, not just during the time I'm there, but for a few days afterwards as well. We avoid enclosed places where people smoke because we have to in order to be able to function and not feel utterly miserable all the time, rather than because we want to. We might spend a lot more time in such places if they were smoke free.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 03:45 PM

Exactly, CarolC. Thank you for stating my case so well.

GUEST, the reason I haven't been in a pub for 10 years, and neither have most of my friends, is BECAUSE of the smoking. I would love to feel I could go there a be as regular patron. I know I've missed out on a lot of fun times because of my inability and refusal- to inhale something that makes me ill.

Pubs in Ireland are doing OK, or so I've read. Yes, there is some adjustment that has to be made by the addicted, but to revise that quote Kendall offered up...

IF YOU DON'T SMOKE, I WON'T THROW UP ON YOU.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 04:22 PM

Smoker! And proud of it. I will smoke anything you have. Try me.

BDiBR

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 04:49 PM

Nonsmoker. I grew up in a nonsmoking family. The smell of cigarettes makes me feel ill. The stink of them on clothing and hair is very obvious. The damage to skin tone and general health soon becomes very obvious. This is not a judgement on the smoker, rather on the negative results of the habit.

When people smoke outdoors, it's not too much of a problem for the nonuser. You just try to move upwind of them if there's a breeze.

When they smoke indoors, it's a major problem for all concerned.

The only reason that cigarettes are marketed is so that some very rich people can make even more money.

So, Guest, be proud that you are helping to support some of the World's richest professional murderers and foremost drug pushers every time you light up. And be mighty ticked off at those of us who have the gall to point that out.

It's not you I am judging. It's the actions of the people who make a business out of daily poisoning you and many other people for profit that I am judging. You're just one of their many habituated victims, and you have a perfect right to poison yourself...but not to poison others.

It's like when there's a war on. Do I judge the enemy soldier coming across a field at me? Is he evil? No. The actions of the leaders who unnecessarily launched that war and used him as their patsy...THAT's what is evil. They know exactly what they are doing. He usually doesn't.

But if he ever woke up and really thought about it...then what? He might not be so easily manipulated by the greedy and powerful.

If you smoke, you started for only one reason...because you saw other people doing it when you were young, and you wanted to "fit in". That's a pretty common and pretty dumb reason to want to do anything that is obviously harmful and unnatural. Conformity. The line of least resistance. The dead stupid obvious. Running with the herd. It's what I see the street kids doing in Barrie (daylia can confirm that). They all smoke, and they can hardly afford food! They'd rather have their tobacco fix than eat. The poorer people's prospects are in life, the higher is the percentage of smokers among them. Now, why would that be? Why do you think? Does ignorance and hopelessness contribute to self-destructive behaviour? Yes, it surely does, and the drug-pushing industries depend on just that to keep the money rolling in. That, and conformity.

Anyone out there got an original idea? I hope so. That's how things get better.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 04:58 PM

non-smoking in bars will work because there are a hell of a lot more people who need their alcohol "fix" than a nicotine fix. Those that need both will just walk outside to smoke like they do at work and for many, at home.

That most governments think it is perfectly fine to keep tobacco legal - even though they know how deadly it is, yet keep pot illegal - nowing how relatively harmless it is, has nothing to do with the health of people. It has to do with big business and money. Tobacco is a highly processed product that is difficult for the average person to grow and process. Pot is the opposite. Pot is a native plant of every of the 50 states. It grows easily and quickly. Processing it for smoking or for baking takes minimal skills, effort and tools. There would be no way for big business to seriously make the money they currently make with tobacco or alcohol sales, so the government does not want to legalize it.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:00 PM

I'm a life-long non-smoker, but don't have a 'down' on smokers... I've nearly always found that smokers who give up tend to be far less forgiving!

That said, I don't like people smoking in my house!

OLD JOKE ALERT:

You asked if I mind you lighting up a cigarette. The residue of your pleasure is smoke, which fills my hair, eyes, nose and mouth, and makes my clothes smell.

I enjoy a drink. The residue of my pleasure is urine. So how do you feel about me peeing all over you?!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:13 PM

"That most governments think it is perfectly fine to keep tobacco legal - even though they know how deadly it is, yet keep pot illegal - nowing how relatively harmless it is, has nothing to do with the health of people. It has to do with big business and money. Tobacco is a highly processed product that is difficult for the average person to grow and process. Pot is the opposite. Pot is a native plant of every of the 50 states. It grows easily and quickly. Processing it for smoking or for baking takes minimal skills, effort and tools. There would be no way for big business to seriously make the money they currently make with tobacco or alcohol sales, so the government does not want to legalize it."

BRAVO! Blackcatter, you are so right. It's all a question of moneyed interests. Any fool can grow, harvest, prepare, and smoke his own pot. (I've seen complete idiots do it with ease.) It's not that easy with tobacco. That makes it a good business for BIG business. The government is just an errand boy for big business.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:14 PM

Strange, it's the smell of alcohol, of people who've been drinking alcohol that really grosses me out. The stink of it oozes out the pores somehow for days, it seems, after "tying a good one on".

Smells like an putrid, rotten liver.

Wonder why.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:18 PM

I agree heartily regarding the smell of alcohol. It is disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: hesperis
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:30 PM

Tobacco can be grown in gardens, it's just harder to make cigarettes from the naturally-grown leaves without all the additives. I do know a couple of people who grow their own and roll their own, but that takes work.

That said, I'm a non-smoker because it makes me sick. I've also had a smoking musician tell me that I'd never make it as a musician because I'm allergic to smoke. So every time a venue goes non-smoking, I rejoice, because that's one more venue closer to being able to perform live.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:34 PM

I also don't drink. Kind of leaves me out in the cold as far at a lot of Brit entertaining goes.

Bless em and I don't mean to be "catty" but some of the folks I just met spent an inordinate amount of time talking about how drunk they get.

Sorry I don't get it, and I can't remember hearing any other group of people (I used to run a guesthouse in Greece) talk about getting pissed the way the Brits do. Strange. It got to the point that I wouldn't let a group of Brits (especially if they were young men) stay at the guesthouse. I received no pleasure from cleaning up their vomit (and it was found in the most extraordinary places) every morning.

Excuse me, got off the subject of smoking...

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:41 PM

Back to the smoking. In 1991 I was smoking around 35-40 a day and was having trouble getting to the top of the stairs without being so short of breath!!!... I stopped decisively....got up one morning and decided not to smoke another cig...MUCH TO MY GREATER HEALTH. I am so pleased that a small amount of willpower saved me from possible death.
For a 56 yr old I am now pretty healthy...lead an active life and sing!!!!!!!!!! not brilliantly but I do sing.... not as good as I used to 20 yrs ago but I sing.......If I had carried on, I would have died I'm sure.and sung no more....Best wishes,.....

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:43 PM

Incidentally...In 1999 I was diagnosed with an allergy to cigarette smoke....If I went to a club with smoking allowed..I woke the next morniing with what seemed like a hangover, having had only perhaps two drinks.....smoking damages!!!!!!!
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,WAsteD iN WAwa
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:52 PM

Hey BDiBR   

Help yourself

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 06:42 PM

That picture says a lot. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 06:45 PM

Are we at the back end of this thread then??

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 07:12 PM

Well if you've ever woken up with a mouth that tastes like an arse, you now know why!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 08:14 PM

"Cigareets is a curse on the whole human race;
A man is a monkey with one in his face!
So heed my descripion, take warning dear brother.
A fire at one end, a fool at the other!

Cigareets & Whiskey & wild, wild women
They'll drive you crazy, they'll drive you insane.
Cigareets & Whiskey & wild, wild women
They'll drive you crazy, they'll drive you insane."

Nigel (an ex-pipe smoker, [at present!])

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 09:31 PM

I'm quite lucky. Smoked in moderation for years, gave it up without any problems whatsoever, don't mind being in a smoky pub, though I don't much like the smell on my clothes afterwards - and I very much dislike the smell of tobacco smoke that hasn't passed through someone's lungs to get filtered, for example when people leave their fags to smoulder away in an ash tray rather than stubbing them out.

Pipe smoke is much less unpleasant, and can even smell quite agreeable. I don't know why that is. The same goes for pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 09:39 PM

Most pipe smoke is "flavored" so it will smell nicer than other tobacco. To me, Pot has a smell very similar to white sage. Stronr and a bit harsher, but I swear whenever someone uses white sage to smudge, I get the munchies.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 09:47 PM

I'm old enough (lived long enough) that I've heard and seen EVERY single possible argument related to smoking, both pro and con. I've put four friends in the ground who died from smoking. I've read every posting on this thread so far, and I read nothing new.

I do not believe it's possible to change the mind of a smoker from the "outside." Something must impact them from the "inside" to get them to stop the habit. And they can if they choose.

I arrived at a VERY simple solution that has worked for me for the last 15 years. If I am invited to perform, or to attend, at a place where smoking is allowed, I simply say "NO."

CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: bbc
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 09:56 PM

Always non & I have a non-smoking home. COngratulations, Khandu; good health to you! My best friend is a smoker w/ emphysema, whose husband died at 50 of lung cancer. I know she can't stop. I keep her busy when I can & keep her company outside when she feels she needs to smoke. I don't see how people can sing in smoky conditions.

best to all,

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 10:19 PM

Started smoking when I was 10 and quit when I was around 14. Never had any problem quitting anything (including quitting).

One observation... Why is it cigarette smokers absolutely have to have another one evey hour or so? Pipe smokers and cigar smokers don't have to light up that often. Think there's something else in those fags?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 10:34 PM

Yeah, Cluin...that is mysterious, all right. It seems to be a nervous habit, like biting your nails, or running your hands through your hair. Then there's the other question: why in god's name do smokers want to smoke right after having sex?!? Are the cigarettes jealous or something? Yuck.

Deckman, you are absolutely right. Something inside the smoker has to trigger the decision to quit. No outer argument or grisly evidence will compell or convince them to until that something inside clicks in and actually wants to. It's like that with quitting coffee too. Believe me, I know. It was not easy to quit drinking coffee, until finally I just reached the point where I absolutely did not want it anymore, regardless of whether it smelled good and reminded me of past pleasant occasions or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 01:02 AM

But do you still crave a cup of coffee after sex?


You did know that Tim Hortons has been putting nicotine in their coffee in the last few years? That's why it tastes so bad now.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:33 AM

Never smoked tobacco, and it grosses me out big time. I grew up in a house with smoking parents, and tolerated it easily enough at the time, but today I can't stand it.

One aspect of folk-music culture that always turned me off -- this is something you saw all the time back in the early/mid 60s, probably never today: Performer lights up, takes one drag before starting a song, and wedges the filter end behind the strings on his guitar's headstock for the cigarette to burn and emit smoke for the duration of the number. Why? To cover up the smell of something even worse?

Now, I'm not a total Puritan; I have been known to smoke other substances, and rarely hesitate to take a drink (given reasonable circumstances, e.g., not during the workday). But I'm an unforgiving prohibitionist when it comes to those putrid ciggies.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:52 AM

I am a smoky person, and Hull Folk Club is a smoky Folk Club.

Hull Folk Club=The Marlborough Club, Chanterlands Avenue, Hull
loads of smoky people go, like me, el ted, Mick from Hull, Les From Hull, Maggie from Hull etc etc etc [all smoking people].

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Sooz
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 04:19 AM

It's your loss, jOhn. Think of all the great singers and musicians who are staying away from your club because they don't want to share your effluent.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 04:29 AM

My reaction when I read that Ireland's pubs were to go smoke-free was that it would never ne enforced - it is, and it works. In two weeks there and usually in a different pub each night I never perceived any major disruption to the social routine of smokers (who went outside) or their non-smoking companions (who had to wait five minutes to resume their conversations or whatever).

weerover (smoker).

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Joybell
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 04:41 AM

Never a smoker by choice. Over 50 years of exposure to second-hand smoke has put me in the same position as Ellenpoly and others like her. It's not a question of what we PREFER. It's a matter of breathing or not breathing. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: HRH ted of hull
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 04:51 AM

I'd like to post something here, but I think I will pop out for a fag instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 04:57 AM

Don't forget there is some americuns here Ted,
fag means puff in american!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: HRH ted of hull
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:09 AM

I have just had BOTH jOhn.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 05:11 AM

Oh!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 06:59 AM

My dad smoked. I hate him. I hate all fags. Should be lined up and shot. I love reading this thread. Keep it comin.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,MT
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 07:35 AM

Bite me.

How well I remember my grandmother's asking me not to use tobacco, good old soul! She said, "You're at it again, are you, you whelp? Now, don't ever let me catch you chewing tobacco before breakfast again, or I lay I'll blacksnake you within an inch of your life!" I have never touched it at that hour of the morning from that time to the present day.

- "History Repeats Itself"


As an example to others, and not that I care for moderation myself, it has always been my rule never to smoke when asleep and never to refrain when awake.

- 70th birthday speech


Life was not a valuable gift, but death was. Life was a fever-dream made up of joys embittered by sorrows, pleasure poisoned by pain; a dream that was a nightmare-confusion of spasmodic and fleeting delights, ecstasies, exultations, happinesses, interspersed with long-drawn miseries, griefs, perils, horrors, disappointments, defeats,humiliations, and despairs--the heaviest curse devisable by divine ingenuity; but death was sweet, death was gentle, death was kind; death healed the bruised spirit and the broken heart, and gave them rest and forgetfulness; death was man's best friend; when man could endure life no longer, death came and set him free.

- Letters from the Earth


Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits.

- Pudd'nhead Wilson


We are nothing but echoes. We have no thoughts of our own, no opinions of our own, we are but a compost heap made up of the decayed heredities, moral and physical.

- Mark Twain's Notebook

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 08:10 AM

Little Hawk mentioned 'Grisly evidence' - amongst the grisliest evidence must be the big fat hole in smoker's wallets! When I wanted my Lowden I held back though guilt over the cost (about £1,600) until I realised that, if I smoked 30 a day, my habit would be costing me close to £2,000 per annum! Kinda put the cost of the guitar into perspective for me and I went straight out and bought it. A beautiful, hand-made, top-class instrument for less than the cost of ten months smoking! And my breath doesn't stink either!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 08:14 AM

Started smoking at about age thirteen - gave up twice and went back before finally giving up at age thirty-six. That time I had such severe withdrawal symptoms that the aversion factor kicked in - wouldn't want to go through that again!

I've gone through the militant anti-smoker bit and can now just tolerate other people smoking, but not when the air gets really thick. I don't like the smell on my clothes afterwards though.

I would agree that the smoker themself is the only person who will make the decision to stop. From my own experience trying to persuade them not to just hardens the resolve to continue in most cases, even if they know that it would be the most sensible thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 08:19 AM

Went to our local folk club last night. It was fuller than usual and very smokey. I don't know if the smoke0free Middle Bar has spoiled me or what, but it seemed to effect me more than usual. The person who runs the club chain-smokes and my voice was hoarse by the end of the evening. I'm rapidly coming round to thinking the ban as per Ireland is a good thing!! On top of that, my hair and clothes all smell disgusting

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 08:55 AM

Ever see a left-wing activist rail against the government and/or big business and multinational corporations and then light up a cigarette?

Anybody that smokes loves donating lots of extra money to support the government and the lifestyles of the rich and greedy big-business-bastards that run the multinationals that control the tobacco industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Mooh
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 09:29 AM

Rabid lifelong non-smoker. Very intolerant of smoke and smoker's excuses. Raised by smokers who lived long enough to quit and regret what they did to their children. Smoke has kept me from gigging some otherwise worthy venues, and has prevented some otherwise worthwhile social experiences. Bitter? Better believe it!

Smokers litter more than others too, if my street, downtown, beach, local highways and byways are any evidence.

If I were King, smoking would be illegal.

Peace, Mooh (enjoying a fresh breeze off Georgian Bay).

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 09:29 AM

I think the thing I like best about smoking is the way it keeps holier-than-thou self-appointed messiahs at a peaceful, comfortable distance.

I've had perfect strangers walk all the way across the park just to insult and preach at me - while I'm sitting there by myself, harming no one, minding my own business, enjoying a break!

I've discovered that all I have to do to get rid of them is practice the art of silence while lighting up another one. Blowing big smoke rings around their faces works VERY well too, if they can't take the hint fast enough. ANd some of them just can't.

I agree with MT - bite me!

If people don't like the way I taste, they certainly don't have to eat me.

If people don't like the way I smell, they can stay away from me too. I don't miss'em in the least. I avoid quite a few people myself, because I can't stand the way they usually smell - be it alcohol or garlic or those godawful cheap perfumes or patchouli oils. I don't insult them, accuse them of all the crimes of humanity or insist they start smelling the way I'd prefer, either.

I just keep my distance. Simple. I figure my personal preferences are my problem, not theirs.

I don't fill up anyone's space (or my own) with smoke (or any other offensive odour), out of respect and common sense. All I ask in return is that people don't fill up mine with unsolicited "advice", meddling and hatred.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 10:36 AM

daylia -

There are assholes on either side of the debate. I find the habit odeous and nasty, but I have friends who smoke. They are nice enough to go outside/walk away to light up and come back afterwards. I treat it just like going to the bathroom. I don't want a friend who pees in front of me either (well, she'd have to be really cute . . .).

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 10:45 AM

Hey Blackcatter, maybe I'm cute enough for ya! I'm always into new experiences .... ;-)

I agree the habit IS odeous and nasty ... when indulged in an enclosed space.

That's why the Natives designed all their dwellings and Council areas with smoke-holes at the top.

There are habits which I find much more offensive than smoking. I think I pointed them out already, though.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 10:54 AM

It's the easiest thing in the world to give up smoking. I myself have done it hundreds of times. (Mark Twain)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 10:56 AM

Holes in native structures weren't constructed to vent tobacco smoke, they were to vent cooking fires. Chain smoking wasn't a use that Indian tobacco was put to pre-Columbus. That was learned from colonizers who took something sacred and turned it profane.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 10:57 AM

When is it time for the..." But don't you drive a car?" post.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: maggiethecat
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 11:05 AM

Thanks so much for everyone's contributions. I hope you'll keep it up if you have a mind to.

The reason I began this thread was because of something that happened to me on a holiday a little while back.

I was sitting on the most beautiful and pristine beach on an island in the Caribbean, dreaming and minding my own business, when I began to smell something. Sure enough, it was cigarette smoke from a person upwind of me...and from quite a long way away.

At the time I didn't think that much about it, but since then, it's happened almost everywhere I've gone...and in the most gorgeous places. Just being on the wrong end of a breeze meant I had to smell someone else's decision.

I do understand what you said, daylia, about your having also to smell what other people wear. But as far as I know, none of those things you mention can harm you...(and I certainly hope that the smoke wafting into my lungs wasn't enough to harm me) and I think that's the biggest point that's been made here.

Of course it's your choice, and all of us speaking here live in free countries...but...


And again, thank you for all your contributions.

-maggie

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 11:43 AM

I smoke

about once per year, a cigarillo. Some years I forget, some years I smoke two. This year I'll smoke it in the first week of October.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:13 PM

How can someone get all het up and righteous about their god-given right to smoke? LOL! Of course, you have a right to smoke if you so desire. You also have a right to drink yourself into a hangover every night, overeat till your heart stops, not wash till you stink, snort cocaine till your nose doesn't work, not pay your bills till your power gets turned off, and do any number of irresponsible and completely self-destructive things...just because you want to.

But don't pretend that you don't have a problem, because you do. You're addicted to a very harmful substance that damages your health every single day, makes the skin on your face get leathery and old-looking before its proper time, damages your vocal chords, damages your lungs...and no animal in the entire world of nature is foolish enough to deliberately inhale smoke...nor is any human toddler so foolish. Nope, only an adolescent human being programmed by the tremendous brainwashing forces of cultural conformity and bravado and peer pressure can be that foolish.

Native Americans smoked. They did so as a prayer. They did not smoke continuously all day long as do modern people. The mixture they smoked was far less harmful than commercial tobacco of today, because it did not contain various additives to make it burn smoother, taste better, and have a longer shelf life.

If you consider tobacco to be a sacrament, Native American style, then consider smoking it AS the Native Americans did...once or twice a day for a short time, instead of intermittently all day long.   They were not addicts, the modern smoker is.

Modern tobacco is deliberately MADE more addictive with additives by the companies that market it. Why? They want to make more money. Period.

And you are their chosen target.

Why be righteous about it?

If, on the other hand, you are bugged by people coming and harassing you in the park, I can entirely understand that. They are overstepping their bounds. I don't harass people I see smoking outdoors. I feel sorry for them inside, but I don't harass them or bother them about it. It just makes me feel sad and weary when I see them...like you would feel if you saw your children being self-destructive, and knew you could do nothing about it.

Mark Twain? He was just enjoying being an outspoken curmudgeon, a rugged individualist, and doing whatever the hell he wanted to. Fine with me. He was a great writer. What do I care whether or not he smoked back then? It's a different time now. Most men smoked back then. Virtually all women did not. They were wiser than the men. That doesn't surprise me. :-) Men have always tended toward self-destructive bravado.

Nowadays we see it reversed. More girls are taking up smoking than boys. That's the power of modern marketing for you. The tobacco pushers must have thought the gates of heaven were opening when it finally became socially acceptable for women to smoke too...twice as much profit to be made!   

$$$$$$$disease$$$$$lies$$$$$profit$$$$$$$$marketing$$$$$$death$$$$$$$$

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:18 PM

guess its safe to assume you don't go to many BBQs or campfires, eh maggie?

I was at one last year where a non smoker sat down beside someone who was smoking and when they notice it, they immediately moved to another side of the bonfire, with the comment and a hint of disgust, "Ooh, a smoker....". They subsequently spent the rest of the evening blissfully engulfed in woodsmoke. My thought at the time was that there are those who will seize any opportunity to deride the human frailties of their fellow man, in order to ignore their own, in an attempt to feel superior.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:34 PM

Everyone enjoys feeling superior. :-) (Unless they have completely conquered their ego and attained absolute equaninity and equality with all beings...such people are 1 in 10,000 or even less than that.)

What really pisses OFF people is when they sense that someone ELSE is feeling superior at their expense, right, Metchosin?

I can understand your irritation over this matter. Your observation of the nonsmoker at the fire is keen and appropriate.

I love sitting at a bonfire, but I definitely try to avoid the smoke. I'm not there for the smoke. I'm there for the light, the warmth, the beauty of the fire, the conviviality, and the reliving of genetic memories going back hundreds of thousands of years. The smoke is the most inconvenient part of the experience, and can mostly be avoided by choosing where to sit. Why do we put chimneys on fireplaces? So we don't have to breathe the smoke!

A smoker is smoking FOR the smoke...and the high he gets from the drug that's in the smoke. That's unnatural, and it involves some pretty amazing mental gymnastics to find a way of justifying it.

Someone who knows how to build a good fire selects dry wood, so as to give off the least smoke possible. One does not build a fire in order to inhale smoke.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:41 PM

Smoking outdoors can just be an effectve way of keeping midges away.

The really nasty outdoor smoke is from barbecues - now that really is a killer.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:47 PM

Whatever you wish to believe Little Hawk, but in truth, nope, just a brief glimpse and chuckle at how very human we all are. I kinda like fools, myself included.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:47 PM

It's not as bad as pig manure, though! Ever lived near a factory pig farm?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,maggiethecat
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:51 PM

Metchosin, that was an interesting point.

I love campfires and BarBeQues, and have come home in the past smelling of both. But I don't sit in the path of the smoke if I can help it, because any smoke feels bad in my lungs.

But there is a difference in the smoke, and Little Hawk mentioned some of it. I think there are chemicals in the cigarettes that increase the danger. I'm sorry I don't know a lot about it but I do know that as I get older, my body seems to be more and more sensitive to things like this.

I guess it's hard to understand why someone smokes if you don't. Maybe if you'd explain more about how you started and why you continue it would help me understand.

-maggie

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 12:53 PM

where there's folks, there's mire.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 01:38 PM

I understand why they smoke, Maggie. I smoked in various Native American ceremonies on a few rare occasions, and I understood right away what was appealing about it...once you made the decision to do what was essentially an unnatural, but a culturally familiar act. It was pleasant. I only took the smoke in my mouth and sent it back out again, but there was something pleasant about it. The aftertaste was not so pleasant later on, though.

Now, add to that the desire to fit in with one's peer group, seem like an "adult", and all the other psychological stuff that motivates young people...plus the comfort of repeating an accustomed habit that has soon become second nature...plus the addictive urge (which I have experienced with caffiene drinks and sugar in my life)...plus the feeling that one is "taking a break"...

Well, it's not hard to understand why people like to smoke. They drink coffee and eat sugar-laden fast food for the same reasons.

What is hard to understand is that the liking overcomes their good sense to the point where they would rather keep doing it and suffer the bodily consequences than quit. That becomes increasingly hard to understand as time goes by.

But...we all do various foolish and unnecessary things. Many of them are not quite as obvious as smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Winston
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 01:39 PM

Approximately 1300 Americans died prematurely yesterday from the effects of tobacco smoke. Another 1300 or so will die today, again tomorrow, and again the next day.

By the end of the year, about half a million Americans will be dead from the effects of tobacco smoke. That's more than the COMBINED total number of deaths from AIDS, traffic accidents, suicide, fires, murder and accidental poisonings.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 01:42 PM

One flaw in your stats Winston. Every smoking death is a slow moving suicide and every smoker, without exception, is attempting to commit suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 01:43 PM

Chemicals in cigarettes and tobacco smoke make smoking harmful.

Tobacco smoke contains over 4,000 different chemicals. At least 43 are known carcinogens (cause cancer in humans).

Cigarettes are one of few products which can be sold legally which can harm and even kill you over time if used as intended.

Currently there are ongoing lawsuits in the USA which aim to hold tobacco companies responsible for the effects of smoking on the health of long term smokers.


Benzene (petrol additive)
A colourless cyclic hydrocarbon obtained from coal and petroleum, used as a solvent in fuel and in chemical manufacture - and contained in cigarette smoke. It is a known carcinogen and is associated with leukaemia.

Formaldehyde (embalming fluid)
A colourless liquid, highly poisonous, used to preserve dead bodies - also found in cigarette smoke. Known to cause cancer, respiratory, skin and gastrointestinal problems.

Ammonia (toilet cleaner)
Used as a flavouring, frees nicotine from tobacco turning it into a gas, found in dry cleaning fluids.

Acetone (nail polish remover)
Fragrant volatile liquid ketone, used as a solvent, for example, nail polish remover - found in cigarette smoke.

Tar
Particulate matter drawn into lungs when you inhale on a lighted cigarette. Once inhaled, smoke condenses and about 70 per cent of the tar in the smoke is deposited in the smoker's lungs.

Nicotine (insecticide/addictive drug)
One of the most addictive substances known to man, a powerful and fast-acting medical and non-medical poison. This is the chemical which causes addiction.

Carbon Monoxide (CO) (car exhaust fumes)
An odourless, tasteless and poisonous gas, rapidly fatal in large amounts - it's the same gas that comes out of car exhausts and is the main gas in cigarette smoke, formed when the cigarette is lit. Others you may recognize are :

Arsenic (rat poison), Hydrogen Cyanide (gas chamber poison)

source: Health Education Authority (UK) - Lifesaver

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 01:46 PM

non and avoid it as much as possible

LH, I've read it is an addiction worse than heroin to overcome...it's difficult to figure any other rhyme or reason why good people of intelligence and knowledge would keep on with it...and I live with one of them, though he never does so around me!

JP, congratulations!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: maggiethecat
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 01:50 PM

Wow! That's a frightening list!

I have a friend who insists she doesn't smoke that much, about four to six cigarettes a day. She also keeps telling me that both her mother and grandfather used to smoke well into their 80s. Somehow that seems to make it alright for her as well.

Should I bother giving her that list? Or will she just become stubborn, which seems to be the reaction of a lot of people?

It's pretty amazing what we convince ourselves of.

-maggie

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 01:54 PM

What people want deeply they will contrive to believe. Deeply. Even if it's killing them. Even if it's killing others. Especially if it can make them a whole lot of money!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 04:06 PM

I got cancer of the bladder through smoking.

24 years after I stopped smoking.

Just because you stop smoking it doesn't mean that you won't get cancer late on in life caused by smoking. If you can't see the damage it causes, then please think about your children, who you may slowly be killing.

I was 54 when I got it and considered very young to get it. It affected my life dramatically and created big issues with my family, including severe financial loss.

Those tobacco companies have a lot to answer for.

So if anybody says to me its alright that I sit with a bunch of smokers because they think it is Ok, then get real. I don't have any issues with people who smoke, but if I choose to sit with them, it is my decision, not theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 04:10 PM

As for campfire/bonfire smoke - First - if you have someone who knows what they're doing, there's little smoke. Second, if you pick the right woods, the smoke can be quite pleasant to breathe in fairly small quantities (assuming you can handle smoke at all). I collect and dry about 8 different types of wood for the bonfires at my church. The list includes oak, willow, cypress, camphor, mesquite, and orange. I burn most of them at different times of the year. My fires are pretty well known to be nearly smoke free, yet fragrant.

We occasionally burn tobacco in the fire too - though in small quantities and only as a reverential nod to the Indians who called Florida home before we came, or as a powerful herb associated with the season of Samhain, the Celtic feast of the Dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 02:19 AM

Right....there is little harm in woodfire smoke, especially bonfires and campfires enjoyed by the self righteous. LOL

All burning creates harmful by-products of combustion, resulting in air pollution. Just because one is able to create a fire with lower levels of large particulate matter visible to the eye, dosn't mean that one is not creating harmful pollution for recreational enjoyment.

The U.S. EPA estimates the cancer risk from wood smoke is twelve times greater than that from equal amounts of tobacco smoke. Materials on the low end of the energy scale such as wood and charcoal create the most pollution. Other low end recreational solid fuel sources are incense, candles, wax logs, charcole grills.

The basic components of wood smoke pollutants are:

Particulates:
Tiny particles suspended in the air that are too small to be filtered out, and thus become embedded deep within the lungs. The most injurious are particles classified as PM10, 10 microns in diameter or less. Wood smoke PM10 contains creosote, soot, and ash. Most smoke particles average less than one micron (one millionth of a meter), allowing them to remain airborne for 3 weeks. The particles are efficient vehicles for transporting toxic gases, bacteria and viruses deep into the lungs where they pass into the blood stream. Inhalation of PM10 causes coughing, irritation and permanent scarring and damage to the lungs resulting in decreased lung function and increases in respiratory illness. It contributes to cancer, heart disease and changes in DNA leading to autoimmune disease. It causes sudden, premature death. These effects become significant at averages less than 40 micrograms per cubic meter. Smoke from just one fireplace burning has been found to cause particulate levels to exceed 200 ug/m3 in the outdoor air surrounding the neighboring property. These particles are so small that they filter into your home even with all the doors and windows closed.

Carcinogens:
Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAH): Residential wood burning is the source of 50% of airborne
Polynuclear Organic Material (POM) in the U.S. POMs contain a group of compounds (PAHs) which include many Class A
carcinogens, the most carcinogenic materials known to exist.

Dioxin:
Dioxin is a very potent carcinogen and endocrine disrupter. Scientists say it is exceeded in toxicity only by radioactive waste. Dioxin is one of the deadly dozen air pollutants. It is a repeat offender and keeps getting recycled in the environment for years. It lasts in the human body for seven years.

Carbon Monoxide:
An odorless gas resulting from all burning but produced in large amounts when burning takes place with
reduced oxygen, such as in wood stoves. Even small amounts in the air reduce the body's ability to transport oxygen, constrict
muscles and blood vessels, stress the heart, and result in feeling cold, fatigued and nauseated. High CO levels are found indoors
where wood is burned.

Respiratory Irritants and Toxins:
There are over 100 different chemicals and compound groups in emissions from burning wood. In addition to those noted above there are chemicals known to be toxic such as:
formaldehyde
propionaldehyde
acetaldehyde
isobutyraldehyde
phenol
cresols
Also nitrogen dioxide which is released impairs the respiratory system and reduces its ability to fight infection. This combines with the organic compounds to form ozone which makes breathing difficult.

So don't tell me that bonfires, incense, scented candles and other popular forms of recreational combustion don't have the potential to cause harm to yourself and others either; whether torching a dube or grilling a tofuburger, one is not immune.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: s&r
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 04:41 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 06:54 AM

So next time you feel like lighting up a camp fire, just think about it. Just say NO. I know it will be hard, but what is the alternative? Try looking at pictures of camp fires in various stages of combustion. Wean yourself off slowly. One day you too will be able to walk right past the bbq supplies without a twinge.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 08:01 AM

I was sitting on the most beautiful and pristine beach on an island in the Caribbean, dreaming and minding my own business, when I began to smell something. Sure enough, it was cigarette smoke from a person upwind of me...and from quite a long way away.

At the time I didn't think that much about it, but since then, it's happened almost everywhere I've gone...and in the most gorgeous places ..... and I certainly hope that the smoke wafting into my lungs wasn't enough to harm me)

ROTFLMHO!!!   Thanks, maggie.

Suggestion 1: phone 911 and rush yourself to emergency for a thorough examination right now, QUICK!!! -- before it's too late.

Suggestion 2: next time it happens, place your thumb alongside one nostril and the tip of your index finger alongside the other. Pinch firmly till the breeze wafts by.

Suggestion 3: Hypochondria (the habit of cultivating paranoid thoughts and delusions about one's health) can become quite a debilitating mental illness.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Grateful Ted
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 08:11 AM

97

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 08:22 AM

Holes in native structures weren't constructed to vent tobacco smoke, they were to vent cooking fires. Chain smoking wasn't a use that Indian tobacco was put to pre-Columbus. That was learned from colonizers who took something sacred and turned it profane.

Well GUEST, the smoke holes obviously vented both - the cooking fires and the burning/smoking of ceremonial Tobacco, sagebrush, sweetgrass, cedar and other sacred herbs which were (and still are) regularly used.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: s6k
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 10:00 AM

99

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: s6k
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 10:01 AM

100 !!! i thank you!!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 10:46 AM

The U.S. EPA estimates the cancer risk from wood smoke is twelve times greater than that from equal amounts of tobacco smoke. Materials on the low end of the energy scale such as wood and charcoal create the most pollution. Other low end recreational solid fuel sources are incense, candles, wax logs, charcole grills.

Many years ago a study was published stating that eating barbecued meat, grilled over coals or wood, is to your body like smoking a pack or more of cigarettes. Far more pleasant way to get those carcingens, IMHO, but we don't grill often.

Well GUEST, the smoke holes obviously vented both - the cooking fires and the burning/smoking of ceremonial Tobacco, sagebrush, sweetgrass, cedar and other sacred herbs which were (and still are) regularly used.

But you seemed to suggest that those natives were walking around rolling their own all day and puffing in the house. This has been shown not to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 11:06 AM

I agree the habit IS odeous and nasty ... when indulged in an enclosed space.

That's why the Natives designed all their dwellings and Council areas with smoke-holes at the top.

If these words suggest to you that "natives were walking around rolling their own all day and puffing in the house", well, you're welcome to your perceptions.

It's just so obvious that smoke-holes vent not only the ceremonial smoking / burning of sacred herbs like Tobacco, but cooking fires as well, that I didn't bother to mention it.

As far as I know, Tobacco was traditionally used by the natives for prayer and ceremonial purposes only ... not for recreation.

Sorry about the confusion.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: maggiethecat
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 11:20 AM

Daylia, I didn't really think that inhaling smoke from such a distance was going to harm me. I'm not an idiot, but thanks for the injection of humour...that didn't hurt me either.

-maggie

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 11:26 AM

Smoke holes - when houses had fireplaces and chimneys, it was quite common to smoke so the smoke went up the chimney. Particularly if you weren't supposed to be smoking whatever it was you were smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 11:54 AM

My parents smoked...I lived in a house full of smoke for 18 years and ALWAYS hated it. I spent hours cleaning the layers of smoke residue from items from my parents estate (silver lamp was yellow)..I am old enough to remember when cigarettes were everywhere. I used to have to sweep them up in grocery stores where I worked, and I found them in bottles being returned for deposit, and people standing in line would blow smoke in my face.

Now almost nowhere I go permits ANY smoke, and dining is pleasant, and plane flights are not torture. This is one of the few bits of real advancement in society, and we are all better for it.

Can you imagine if there were no history of tobacco, and someone suddenly discovered this plant, and decided to dry its leaves and roll them up and set fire to them and inhale the smoke...and then MARKET this product? Can you see the report from the Food & Drug Administration? "NO! You cannot sell this stuff! It is full of stuff that is poison."

Tobacco would NEVER be allowed if it were invented today...so why do we keep permitting it? Taxes, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Grateful Ted
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 12:12 PM

Wouldn't Whitby kippers be fantastic if they were smoked in Old Holborn rather than wood chippigs?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 12:15 PM

Money, Bill. Big money. Oh, and addiction, of course. And habit. And people's god-given right to each be stupid in their own unique fashion. :-)

Metchosin - What exactly is the point you are trying to make? I haven't seen too many people deliberately and enthusiastically inhaling wood smoke from fires. :-) On the contrary, you try and set the fire up so you get the heat and light, but not the smoke. Fires are not perfect! Neither is anything else in life. Everything is a tradeoff. Even sex.

Why not give us some statistics on the physical downside of engaging in other common and popular activities...like driving a car, mowing the lawn, making love, vacuuming, sitting at a computer, flying in an airplane, eating oatmeal with brown sugar on it, and so on...

Oh! Horrifying damage all around. Why, most of these things are AS BAD OR WORSE THAN SMOKING CIGARETTES!!! I figure, we either ban ALL these harmful activities or just admit that smoking cigarettes is every bit as sensible and worthy a practice as anything else a person might choose to do. That oughta shut up all these arrogant, overbearing, pompous people who are acting so self-righteous toward the poor, put-upon smoker!!! Yeah. Go get 'em, Metchosin!

(This thread is a hoot, isn't it?)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 01:37 PM

my point, Little Hawk was that Blackcatter claimed that the inalation of the fumes from a relatively smokeless fire were delightful to breathe. Just because the product burned is "natural" or smells good does not ensure safety. Whether it is tobacco, woodsmoke or incense, the combustion of organic matter produces poisons.

You are correct, life is a gamble with no guarantees and none exist in this world at no expense to others. I will always throw my hat in the ring with those that embrace the gamble and take their lumps, smokers or non. To attempt to control behavior of others by viewing their choices or addictions with derision or pity is futile and does not guarantee anyone, myself included, safe passage.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Sooz
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 02:10 PM

Never met anyone who lit up 40 bonfires a day...............

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 04:27 PM

Woodsmoke is one thing, but a smoking barbecue is absolutely vile, and I believe it's been proved to be very toxic indeed.

I'm always puzzled why people have barbecues in their back gardens rather than using the stove in the kitchen and carrying the food outside to eat.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:27 PM

If you smell tobacco smoke, it's hurting you. Get away from it!

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:30 PM

If you smell manure, on the other hand, it just smells bad. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM

Is it bad for you when you smell smog?

The exhaust from your car? Your snowmobile? Your boat motor? Your lawnmower?

Is it bad for you when you smell factory fumes?

Traffic fumes?

Fresh Asphalt?

How about fresh gasoline, furnace oil, natural gas?

Is it bad for you when you smell your local sewage disposal plant?

Your local pulp mill?

The stale lifeless recycled air in public buildings and other enclosed spaces?

Your neighbour's pipe tobacco?

Your neighbour's barbeque?

Your neighbour's new painting project?

Your neighbour's cigarette?

Your neighbour's backyard campfires?

Is it bad for you when you smell your neighbour's cheap body mist? (you know, the one who makes your eyes water and burn and induces fits of sneezing)

How about when you smell the blood of another holier-than-thou self-appointed messiah?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:56 PM

You tell 'em, daylia! I can't stand these self-important wimps who complain about my cigar smoke. It didn't use to be that way back in the 40's. A man (or chimp) could go anywhere and smoke any time he wanted to. Dames got to use fancy cigarette holders that really had class. The world has gone to hell since then with all these damned rules about everything. Tommy guns ain't legal no more either. I don't know what the hell has gone wrong, but I think it's the lawyers that have done it. I hate 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 06:03 PM

Is it bad for you to smell a Chimp (with or without Cigar)?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 06:06 PM

Definitely not. Look, life is bad for ya. It kills everyone in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 06:34 PM

Except you, Chongo.

For you (and your Cigars) have now become My Infinitely Infantile Insatiable Indulgence.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 06:36 PM

Yes to pretty much all of the things you've listed in your 24 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM post for me and other people like me, Daylia. Even the water that come out of the tap here where I live. I don't much like it, but there it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Polly Squeezebox
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 06:38 PM

Non-smoker. Gave up the easy way - unconscious in hospital for three weeks - NOT RECOMMENDED but at least you get over the nicotine craving.

Now hate seeing husband sticking another nail in his coffin at folk festivals - how come he is able to not smoke at home but as soon as he gets to a festival he lights up?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 06:45 PM

Cigarette smoke really makes me puke. The self-righteous hypocrisy of some of the anti-smokers round here(particularly the ones who drive cars) really really really really makes me puke.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 07:01 PM

In the open air I quite like the smell of pipes and cigars, and even some cigarettes (eg Gauloise). And smoke rings can be pretty. Really it's kind of smokers to put their lives at risk to entertain me.

"how come he is able to not smoke at home but as soon as he gets to a festival he lights up? Presumably its not a matter of him being unable to do without smoking, since by not smoking the rest of the time he demonstrates he is, it's because he chooses to indulge on special occasions.

For some people smoking occasionally doesn't work, because they are addicted - but evidently in this case he isn't, so it's surely not a big deal. The health risk involved in occasional cigarettes (provided they really are occasional) is not great, from all I've read.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 07:07 PM

I wonder who doesn't drive a car around here? Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 07:13 PM

Metchosin

You are so right and I'm so wrong. I'm going outside now and kill myself by pouring gas on me and lighting me afire. That will piss some people off and make them happy at the same time.


As other said - I usually do 8-10 bonfires a year. If you're worried about pollution look into a tailpipe of the billion or so cars in the world. I don't drive one myself.

Now, without a car - where do I go for gas . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 07:23 PM

I'm glad to see you're taking personal responsibility for your transgressions, Blackcatter. :-) That should make upset smokers feel a lot better. So, how do you get around without that car? Just wondering, not saying it's impossible or anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 07:36 PM

Thanks Kat!

If LH starts 1 more Shatner thread, I may have to start again. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 07:51 PM

Great screen name, Polly Squeezebox!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:09 AM

On the question of getting started smoking, both my parents smoked and at the beginning of the sixties smoking still had that glamorous image. All the film stars seemed to smoke and so did my boyfriend at the time. So, in order to feel more grown up I started smoking.

Unfortunately I became addicted and smoking became a way of life. I did try to give up a couple of times but went back to the habit after a while. It wasn't until my husband was told to stop smoking that I was able to stop altogether - it didn't seem fair for him to have to deal with my still smoking. As a result I know that I am healthier, and a lot better off financially.

I do get rather tired of having to put all my clothes in for washing after a night in a paticularly smoky venue but take it as the price to be paid for a good night out. However, I am now with someone who cannot tolerate smoke, having had cancer of the throat as a result of his own smoking habit, and this does colour my view on the subject.

It is frustrating when a good evening is spoilt because you have to leave a session because one of you can't tolerate the smoke, However, my partner's wellbeing is more important to me.

I would love to see non-smoking pubs in the UK. The venue for the session that we are trying to start in Hertford is the dining room of a pub and so non-smoking, but smokers can always go through to the bar to light up. That seems to be a sensible solution.

On the question of cars - I'll go along with LH here. At least the automobile has a practical use. I would be hard put to manage without mine due to the high cost and unreliability of the public transport system in this country, and I do have to use the trains to get to work in London so know first hand what I am talking about. As far as I am aware smoking has no practical value whatsoever and one hell of a downside both healthwise and financially.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:46 AM

Why did I start smoking? Because I wanted to. My father, brother and sister and my best friends smoked, and it proved to myself and my mother (with whom I never got along) that no matter how she screamed and slapped and over-controlled, she couldn't dictate how I'd spend every moment of my life.

I'd take my dad's Colts or Export A no-filters (*choke* *gasp*) into the forest and practice inhaling alone, so I could smoke with my friends and not throw up. I caught on quick. I was 10 years old.

By the time I was 12 I was buying my own whenever I had the money. Back then cigarettes were 65 cents a pack . There were no age limits on buying them. They were advertised on radio TV and billboards, just like booze and chocolate bars. Most people I knew smoked, and nothing was said about health risks.

Why do I continue to smoke? Because after 35 years I still enjoy it. It's quite a habit. It's part of who I am. It stimulates when I'm tired, so my thinking is quicker and more alert. It mellows me when I'm stressed. It's a comforting distraction when I feel depressed. Nicotine is both a mental and emotional stimulant.

Best of all, smoking keeps most people whose company I don't care for FAR AWAY from me! The natives used Tobacco not only for prayer and as 'legal tender' (trading commodity), but as a "smudge" - a cleansing incense to remove negativity from a person or a place before ceremony - usually combined with sage, sweetgrass, and cedar.

I've chosen not to smoke indoors for a few years now, so there's no more disgusting smell in all my clothes or yellow streaks running down the walls of my house. I've never had asthma or allergies or any other illness (except pneumonia when I was 7, from running barefoot races in the snow). I rarely even get colds or flus, and when I do it's usually because I've spent too much time in close quarters with some sickly non-smoker when I'm already over-tired.

I enjoy exercise and make sure I have at least an hour of it outdoors in the fresh air, several times a week -- be it fast-walking, bike riding or practicing martial arts. For many years I was a runner, but had to give that up because of impact damage to my knees, hips and lower back.

I raised 3 kids. They are all healthy, and none of them smoke.

The only reason I'd quit today is financial. That's a biggie, and someday when I'm ready, I'll put 'em down and get a lot richer. It would really help if people would lay off the preaching and propoganda. I see right through all of it! Just thinking I might become anything like most of the wheezing, sickly, asthmatic, allergy-ridden, overweight, stressed out holier-than-thou non-smokers I know is quite the "con" to quitting, in my own mind.

So there's my 2 cents worth. I'm going out for a smoke now.

Lock and Load!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:52 AM

Smoking may make you feel good, but apparently its the come down from the last cigarette that made you feel bad in the first place.

Not that I have anything against you doing it since you seem to try to avoid inflicting others with your smoke. I'm sure theres not one of us that doesnt have a habit that is unhealthy for us in one way or another. But I bet very few people would actually chose to start smoke as adults if they hadn't already been addicted as a child.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:00 AM

But I bet very few people would actually chose to start smoke as adults if they hadn't already been addicted as a child.

I bet you're right about that, Bagpuss! I never tried alcohol till I was almost 18, and when I did it made me puke. I found the taste, the smell and the effects of alcohol totally revolting. Consequently I've never liked alcohol, and I still don't drink.

I don't like it when people inflict their smoke on me in enclosed spaces. So I make it a point to "do unto others ..." It's a lot better for me, and for them.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:30 AM

Non for the last 12 years except when I lived in Brussells for three months where it seemed to be compulsory:-) Gave up easy 12 years ago and did not smoke again when I got back to the UK about 6 or 7 tears back.

Doesn't worry me too much now but I do have to leave our club early occasionaly because of the smoke which does agrravate my medical conditions (Asthma and Perrenial Allergic Rhinitus). If all smokers were like Dalia I would have no problems at all but they are not!

It is a little annoying when I hear people say 'If you don't like it don't come here' etc. There is nowhere at all within walking distance of me that caters for non smokers. Considering that there are in the region of 30 pubs and clubs in that area it does seem a little unfair:-( Not to worry. I know I will have the last laugh when smoking is banned in all public areas as it will be.

The car argument is also pretty erroneous. I drive - I have to to do my job! No car - No work - No money! What am I supposed to do? Cycle all over the UK with heavy computer parts and a huge toolkit strapped to the handlebars?

Just my 2 pen'urth.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Mr. Butts
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:07 AM

I've got news for you Daylia, even though you only smoke outside, your clothes, hair and skin still stink like an ashtray. Thing is, after 35 years of smoking, you can't tell. You also look 10-15 years older than you really are.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:41 AM

As a matter of fact, Mr Butts, people usually guess my age at 5-10 years younger than I really am. No kidding. If I bothered to color out my gray hairs any more, they'd probably still think I was 10-15 younger.

At the risk of sounding conceited, I'll confide that the reason I stopped coloring out my gray hairs a couple years ago was so that the younger men (say under 25) would finally leave me alone. Having raised 3 sons of my own, I find them about stimulating as untrained semi-weaned puppies. Leaving my gray hairs "as is" works quite well to quell their interest, most of the time. It's been quite the relief.

How do you know how my hair and skin smells? Gotta cyber-nose or something?   The smell of smoke wears off in about 5 minutes if you smoke in the open air. Wash your hands with a nice-smelling soap and pop a breath mint in your mouth, and presto! No more smell.

In all honesty, I've had private music students I've taught for years who never knew I smoked, and were just plain shocked to find out (they happen by me in the park or on the nature trails sometimes).

If I smell so vile, how could they not have known?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Mr. Butts
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:55 AM

Obviously Daylia, like most addicts, you suufer from a severe case of denial and, if you actually do believe what you're saying about your youthful good-looks, narcissistic fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:02 AM

Re looking older because of smoking -- I do see that effect in some of my friends. But I smoke on average about 6-12 cigarettes/day. If I smoked more, my skin probably WOULD dry out more noticeably.

Not saying I might not look better if I quit. It would make it easier to keep some nice insulating fat on, probably. And I've noticed my skin has lost some elasticity over the last few years. Yet, that's true for most people I know in their 40's, smokers or not.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Grateful Ted
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:05 AM

I am 45, but only look 15 thanks to a healthy diet of kippers smoked in Old Holborn, washed down with greek whisky.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:05 AM

Christine Lavin has a great new song, "The New Street People," about outdoor smokers. It's on her website here.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:12 AM

Hey Mr Butts, if you do know me personally, how about revealing your true identity here? If not, how about admitting you don't have a clue what you're talking about and taking your pc non-opinions and insults somewhere else?

I've told you the truth. If you don't like it or don't believe it, that's your choice.


daylia


PS   Oh, I almost forgot - you, Mr Butts, and all others like you are hereby warmly invited to ....

Bite me!

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:18 AM

L.H. -

I ride a bike, mostly. I live in Downtown Orlando, so most things - work, church, shopping, pubs, friends are close by. I ride the bus occasionally - maybe a few times a month and I get rides from friends sometimes - if I have to transport something big or going to gigs a fair distance away.

I'm certainly not against cars or trucks, but many people drive gas hogs (SUVs are really popular her, as they are everywhere, yet we have no snow or mountains) and drive them when they really don't have to. For instance, my church has 50 members that live within a 3 mile radius of the church. I'm the only one who bikes. The only other regular bikers live about 6 miles away.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:27 AM

I wonder where it is that people like GUEST,Mr. Butts got the idea that being unpleasant is an effective way of convincing an opponenet in an argument?

I suspect that that kind of heavy-handed stuff is a signifcant factor in   encouraging some smokers to stick with the habit.

The health arguments against smoking, in particular smoking tobacco cigarettes, are pretty overwhelming, and for smoking in confined spaces they are reincforced by considerations of courtesy. There's no need or value in undermining them by a bullying approach. And in fact bullying in this area as in many others only encourages people to dig in their heels. Hell, reading some of the comments I almost feel like joining them sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:28 AM

I wonder where it is that people like GUEST,Mr. Butts got the idea that being unpleasant is an effective way of convincing an opponent in an argument?

I suspect that that kind of heavy-handed stuff is a signifcant factor in   encouraging some smokers to stick with the habit.

The health arguments against smoking, in particular smoking tobacco cigarettes, are pretty overwhelming. When it comes to the matter smoking in confined spaces these arguments are reincforced by considerations of courtesy. There's no need or value in undermining them by a bullying approach. And in fact bullying in this area as in many others only encourages people to dig in their heels. Hell, reading some of the comments I almost feel like joining them sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:46 AM

Alonzo, I found the song juvenile, boring, and sorely lacking in both musical creativity and intellectual wit.

Sorry, but a 3-chord song with a nursery-school melody, marching band rhythm and pedantic offensive lyrics intended only to ridicule people while capitalizing BIG on the latest pc propoganda? That kind of music does absolutely nothing for me.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Mr. Butts
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:47 AM

No Daylia, I won't bite you. I hate the taste of stinky ashtrays.

Talk about bullying McGrath, you're the guy who only has one thing to say, but has to say it twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:55 AM

Hey Butts, believe it or not I taste GREAT! (Or so I've been told quite a number of times by those few people fortunate enough to have earned the privilege of eating me).

So I guess it's your loss, buddy.

(Not that I'd let you anywhere near me in the first place).

How about sucking on a lemon instead? Eating a rusty old spike for breakfast? Sitting naked in a patch of poison ivy? Might improve your mood - or at least give you something that is worth complaining about.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:13 AM

I suspect that that kind of heavy-handed stuff is a signifcant factor in   encouraging some smokers to stick with the habit.

It is for me, and very much so McGrath. When I can completely detach myself (emotionally) from other people's harsh judgments and controlling preachy obnoxious manner, I know I'll be a lot better off. Because when I'm free of my defensiveness and anger, I'll be able to ACT, not just react.

I've been working on this. I think I almost have it licked.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Grateful Ted
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:17 AM

I'm just off for a fag, save the200th post for me wont you?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: maggiethecat
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:23 AM

So just for future reference, do all the BS threads dwindle down to name calling?

And if so, or if the majority do, anyone ever figured out why?

-maggie

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:23 AM

SMOKE! SMOKE! SMOKE THAT CIGARETTE!
(Merle Travis)

cho: Smoke! Smoke! Smoke that cigarette!
Puff, Puff, Puff and if you smoke yourself to death
Tell Saint Peter at the Golden Gate
That you hate to make him wait
But you've just got to have another cigarette.

Now I'm a feller with a heart of gold,
And the ways of a gentleman, I've been told,
The kind of a guy that wouldn't even harm a flea--
But if me and a certain character met,
The guy that invented the cigarette,
I'd murder that son of a gun in the first degree--
Not 'cause I don't smoke myself,
And I don't reckon they'll harm your health
I've smoked all my life and ain't dead yet
But nicotine slaves are all the same,
At a pettin' party or a poker game,
Everything must stop while they smoke that cigarette.

In a game of chance the other night
Old Dame Fortune was a-doin' me right,
The Kings and Queens just kept on comin' around--
I played 'em hard and bet 'em high,
But my bluff didn't work on a certain guy,
He kept on raisin' and layin' the money down
He'd raise me and I'd raise him,
I sweated blood gotta sink or swim,
He finally called and didn't raise the bet--
I said "Aces full, pal,--how 'bout you?"
He said "I'll tell you in a minute or two,
Right now I've just got to have a cigarette."

The other night I had a date
With the cutest little girl in the forty eight states
A high-bred, uptown, fancy little dame--
She said she loved me and it seemed to me
That things were 'bout like they oughta be,
So hand in hand we strolled down lover's lane--
She was oh, so far from a cake of ice,
Our smoochin' party was a-goin nice,
So help me Hannah, I think I'd a been there yet--
But I give her a kiss and a little squeeze
And she said "Tex excuse me please,
I've just got to have another cigarette."

Copyright American Music Inc.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:33 AM

And she said "Tex excuse me please,
I've just got to have another cigarette."

Sheesh, smoking never seemed to work very well for me as a birth control method. What was I doing wrong????

;-) daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:57 AM

From the obnoxious Mudcatter thread, a bit of hyperbole:

If I don't like the tone of a certain thread, I've learned not to post on it.

If I don't care for someone's on-line manner or find I'm always butting heads with them for some reason or another, I've tried making it a policy to skip their posts. (WARNING: if you try the ignoring tactic and the person does decide to extend the olive branch at some point, you'll never know it)

When it gets really unbearable, I just stay away from the Cat completely for a while. But I'd rather be here than on a site so heavily censored and monitored the discussions sound like they're piped in from the good ship Lollipop!

daylia

Yeah, right. She stops posting and ingores the offender [not]!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:12 PM

Hey Butts, believe it or not I taste GREAT! (Or so I've been told quite a number of times by those few people fortunate enough to have earned the privilege of eating me).

Only difference between eating you and pizza is that with the pizza most folks don't eat the crust.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,anabella
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:20 PM

I am non-smoker and so are MARA Junior Science College Pengkalan Chepa Gurlz Club . We are good gurls!!!

Smoke is bad for health.
My boyfriend is also non smoking.... hahaaahahaha!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:33 PM

They don't always go that way MTC. Some argue till they're blue in the face but still manage to part as friends.

Guest - I disagree absolutely with Daylia, but I see no reason to abuse her. Argue - yes, it's good fun. Abuse - certainly not, it says more about the abuser than it does the abused.

'Bye now.
J :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:39 PM

Daylia wants to smoke, it's her business. Period. S'lons she doesn't blow it in someone's face, does it away from people or with only other smokers, what's the problem?

Lotsa people drink. They get liver disease. Someone gonna start a thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:49 PM

But GUEST, you don't really bother me that much. I've heard it all before, from people just like you who haven't a clue who or what they're talking about, but just like to be a pain in the u-no. That's why I haven't ignored you yet.

Your posts remind me of Ontario's provincial bird - the mosquito. A little annoying, yes -- but comfortingly familiar. If I'm lucky, a few well-placed, well-timed swats might put you out of your misery, or at least squish that venom outta you.

If not, you'll buzz off on your own, eventually. And in the meantime, you're invited most cordially once again to ....

BITE ME!!!

daylia


PS ... I LOVE the crust on pizza! It's the best part, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 01:19 PM

If I don't care for someone's on-line manner or find I'm always butting heads with them for some reason or another, I've tried making it a policy to skip their posts.

That's the problem with posts from nameless GUESTS - sometimes they're from people worth reading, other times from people who've earned the right to be ignored. The result is that posts well worth reading get skipped over a lot of the time.

But this is drifting away from the thread into areas that have been thrashed out in many other thread.
.............................

As I see it, it's quite fair for non-smokers to be forceful about smoking that impinges on other people - which mostly means indoors, but there are other occasions when this happens, for example in outdoor concerts which are laid out in such a way that smoke is a nuisance (for example the Arena at Sidmouth, with the audience on a steeply sloping amphitheatre). But that's as far as it goes - provided people aren't effectively blowing the smoke in your face, it's their business. In a way, it's a lifestyle choice, and intolerance about it is no different from intolerance about other lifestyle choices people make.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:09 PM

sez daylia: (Or so I've been told quite a number of times by those few people fortunate enough to have earned the privilege of eating me).

This "bares" repeating. Ma'm, it's really you, in the flesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: mike the knife
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:09 PM

Sometimes I smoke, Most of the time I don't. When I'm having a pint, I want a cigarette. When I was playing sports seriously, I didn't smoke. Every once in a while, when I wanted to smoke, I enjoyed a cigarette or two. I do not smoke in my house, nor do I allow anyone else to. I do not smoke in other people's homes/businesses unless they are smokers themselves & I have received permission. I do not smoke while people at my or nearby tables are eating. I make a serious effort to be aware of non-smokers in my midst and will redirect any smoke to the best of my ability, as I too find it annoying at times. If it's bothering you, I'll do my best to make it not so, up to & including NOT smoking for a while. If however, I do want a cigarette and I am in a "smoking area" and some self-important twit gets "all up in my grill" about it, they should not expect a civil response.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:48 PM

I smoke outdoors, never inside. Even in the houses of other smokers. I have had the experience of a non-smoker approaching me outside and then 'coughing' when the smoke I exhaled blew into his nostrils. Stunned ass didn't know which way downwind was I guess. Life can have its moments.

I feel just as offended when people wear perfumes that make me gag: not all do, but there are a few. And occasionally, people use one of the Dove soaps that make me want to throwup. Does that also count as invasion of space? It's not life and death, I know.

I have heard the 'smoking is pollution' argument before. It's weak. I heard it from someone who drives a semi. His rig spews more exhaust when he starts the motor than I do in a year. Go figure.

Just stuff. Nothing serious. If anyone decides to take me to task, go for it. However, be nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:37 PM

be nice!?!

Man are you a dreamer!

Brucie - if you ever visit in FLorida, drop by, I'll have a nice comfy chair outside under the poach just for you to smoke in.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,WAsteD iN WAwa
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:53 AM

*grunt* *cough cough* *HORK!* *roll over* *fumble fumble* ..... Where's my Butt gone? Who's that groanin? Who's here?

That you, BDiBR?

stumble *THUMP* OUCH!!! grumble grumble Creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeak

Oh, it's you again GUEST.

*blink blink* GUEST? What the h*** are ya ....ha! Ha ha HA! *choke* haaaa ...

So who went an told ya to 'Bite me!' this time, ya silly f***er?!?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 08:58 AM

What's 'Bite Me' all about? Not a saying we're accustomed to in Her Britannic Majesty's Kingdom/Empire/Commonwealth. Can someone enlighten me as to what it means, 'cause it's Greek to me! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Sooz
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:20 AM

look here Johnny!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:11 AM

Johnny, I think "Bite Me!" is the latest euphemism for f*** off, coined in recent years by Generation X - in particular, Buffy fans.

I think it's kinda cute, myself. Saves wear and tear on the middle finger!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM

Nah Daylia - I'm old fashioned (and old!). F**k Off's good for me! LOL!

Thanks Sooz - more American tosh. Give me a good 'Ull thread any day!
LMAO!

The Artist Formerly Known As 17st 10lbs Waddlin' Johnny (ROFL!) :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:05 AM

The equivalent coined for pre-watershed TV shows here was "Naff Off", which seems much more effective, and less likely to give rise to misunderstandings. I mean, "Bite Me" sounds like it might be a somewhat abrupt chat-up line.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Mr. Butts
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 05:55 PM

Well, Daylia and other smokers can deny the effects of their addiction all they want. It doesn't matter, the truth is obvious.

I used to tell my pal Rick Fielding to quit smoking and for years he blew me off. After his first bout with cancer, he told me he'd wished he'd listened.

Meanwhile, another Mudcatter, Okthen, has died from cancer caused by smoking. With Rick, that's at least two Mudcatters so far this year.

Okthen's obit thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 06:01 PM

True enough. But coming on too heavy doesn't help people quit, it just gives them an extra reason to keep smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 06:35 PM

"Bite Me!" was popularised by David Letterman years before "Buffy the Vampire Layer".

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:18 PM

"Is it bad for you when you smell smog?
The exhaust from your car? Your snowmobile? Your boat motor? Your lawnmower?
Is it bad for you when you smell factory fumes?
Traffic fumes?
Fresh Asphalt?
How about fresh gasoline, furnace oil, natural gas?
Is it bad for you when you smell your local sewage disposal plant?
Your local pulp mill?
The stale lifeless recycled air in public buildings and other enclosed spaces?
Your neighbour's pipe tobacco?
Your neighbour's barbeque?
Your neighbour's new painting project?
Your neighbour's cigarette?
Your neighbour's backyard campfires?"

The answer, of course, is Yes. However, not all of us add one more toxin to the list.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 07:52 AM

You're right, Ebbie. And not all of us fall like flies for the same toxins, either. Everyone has a different physiology, different tolerance levels, different strengths and weaknesses.

I was driving up a mountainside near Hope BC a couple years ago when I noticed an old man on a bike ahead of me. He caught my eye because his hair was so silver, his bike was laden down with gear and that was one steep grade. I was impressed ... there I was 30 or so years younger, and I wouldn't have wanted to try keeping up with him!

But the biggest shocker was when I passed him and noticed he had a pipe hanging out of his mouth, thick smoke curling out around his head. :-O   I couldn't believe my eyes! I wished I had a camera! He would have made a great "Bite Me!" poster to defend myself against all the propoganda about Tobacco these days.

But I think I've told this story on the Cat before, and had it all shot to h***. Oh well. Don't get me wrong - I'm NOT saying anyone should start smoking, or that all smokers are anything like that old man - but I do think it depends on personal biology, physical history and lifestyle. If that old guy had been smoking while biking up mountainsides all his life, well ... maybe it's not so surprising after all.

Now here's a hypothesis - because I smoke a few cigarettes every day, the self-cleaning mechanisms in my throat and lungs get more of a daily work-out than your average non-smoker. My body has been dealing (successfully so far, touch wood!) with tobacco smoke since I was only 10 years old. Could it be possible that because of the "exercise" my body got (and gets) flushing out the toxins, it developed a stronger "flushing mechanism" /immune system than typically found in non-smokers? Is that why I hardly ever get sick, and have never been plagued with the respiratory ailments so many other people suffer with?

All of my siblings smoked for years, except one. I'm the only one that has yet to "kick the habit". It's interesting that out of the 4 who quit, 3 have since developed athsmatic tendencies and allergies to air-borne particles, for the first time in their lives. All have gained weight. And worst of all, they've become so insulting and holier-than-thou I find them quite the challenge to be around these days, as well.

McGrath is right - ... coming on too heavy doesn't help people quit, it just gives them an extra reason to keep smoking.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 08:01 AM

CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER
CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER
CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER
CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER
CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER
CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER
CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER
CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER
CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER
CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER
CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER
CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER CANCER

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 08:23 AM

Brace for impact, Johnny and McGrath ... it looks like the uk has been Bitten, too!

Oh, and GUEST, get in time willya? That was last month. This month it's

VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO
VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO
VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO
VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO
VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO
VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO
VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO VIRGO


daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 09:36 AM

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 09:41 AM

wake up when you reach 199.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 10:36 AM

daylia, that was CANCER as in DEATH

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 10:48 AM

Thank you very much for clarifying that point, GUEST. I'd never have thought of that, and I imagine Daylia and most other Mudcatters too wouldn't understand that sort of nuance.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 11:01 AM

With apologies to William Shakespeare and MacBeth,

"I bear a charmed life, which must not yield
To one of tobacco scorned."

Something similiar to this was said right before old man MacDuff scored a direct hit. Let's hope you're so lucky that old woman cancer doesn't nail you, daylia, in your pleasant life of absurd theories and denial ("Now here's a hypothesis . . . Could it be possible that because of the "exercise" my body got (and gets) flushing out the toxins, it developed a stronger "flushing mechanism" /immune system than typically found in non-smokers?")

This is dumb luck, as anyone who has had cancer will tell you. No one deserves it, but some of us leave ourselves open to it a lot more than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 11:06 AM

Before yet another thread succombs to name-calling or derision (or throwing epitaphs..hehehe) may I just say to daylia, that I really do hope you are one of the lucky ones.

May you live to be a healthy hundred and twelve.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 11:56 AM

Thanks, Ellenpoly - and same to you!

Hey GUEST, I was only doing some on-line wondering, (hence the word "hypothesis" in your quote). It's a mystery to me how I somehow stay healthier than majority of the non-smokers I know, and why many smokers DO start suffering asthma and allergies for the first time in their lives after they quit. There has to be a reason for that! I've been smoking for 35 years - if all the propoganda about Tobacco is true, shouldn't I be pushing up daisies by now, or at least unable to walk across the room without losing my breath or something???

If I do get cancer tomorrow, I'll be sure to start a thread about it though. That way you'll at least have something to gloat about.

I'll welcome Death with open arms when it does come for me, for whatever reason. Mark Twain says it all imo, and a lot better than I ever could ...

Life was not a valuable gift, but death was. Life was a fever-dream made up of joys embittered by sorrows, pleasure poisoned by pain; a dream that was a nightmare-confusion of spasmodic and fleeting delights, ecstasies, exultations, happinesses, interspersed with long-drawn miseries, griefs, perils, horrors, disappointments, defeats,humiliations, and despairs--the heaviest curse devisable by divine ingenuity; but death was sweet, death was gentle, death was kind; death healed the bruised spirit and the broken heart, and gave them rest and forgetfulness; death was man's best friend; when man could endure life no longer, death came and set him free.

- Letters from the Earth

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 03:46 AM

Go, Samuel!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 07:58 AM

I think the point is, Daylia, that whilst you may indeed be a ravishing picture of rude good health, that's not the norm amongst smokers. In the main, by age 45, they cough like broken-down old horses, have faces like dried prunes (I just hate to see once-beautiful ladies with the gaunt features and puckered lips that constant sucking on cancer-sticks brings on) and God-Knows-What growing quietly, secretly inside them. And they stink. Trust me lassie, sucking mints does NOT hide the stench of tobacco on the breath, and as a non-smoker whose wife used to smoke I have personal knowledge of that truth :0)

I happily grant you the right to your own beliefs and opinions, and I deplore the abuse that's been heaped upon you for having the courage to speak your mind. However, I hope you wake up to reality before it's too late.

J :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 08:07 AM

Lookie here!

But hold onto your hat-badges ... this is quite the shocking collection of articles and scientific studies about the therapeutic effects of nicotine and smoking tobacco.

Please, click on the Swedish study showing that smokers and their children are at a significantly lesser risk of developing asthma, rhino-conjunctivitis and allergies. So, my "absurd theories and denial", gleaned from a lifetime of first-hand experience and observation, may be right on the mark after all!

The list of benefits is too long to post here, so please read the articles if you're interested ... and here's few quotes ...

"This information is an example of what the anti-tobacco groups do not want publicized because it fails to support their agenda. Some of the studies report benefits not just from nicotine, but from smoking itself. But of course, according to the anti-smokers, all these scientists have been "paid by the tobacco industry" ... even though this is not true. Sadly, personal slander and misinformation are the price a scientist has to pay for honest work on tobacco."

"The benefits of smoking tobacco have been common knowledge for centuries. From sharpening mental acuity to maintaining optimal weight, the relatively small risks of smoking have always been outweighed by the substantial improvement to mental and physical health. Hysterical attacks on tobacco notwithstanding, smokers always weigh the good against the bad and puff away or quit according to their personal preferences.

Now the same anti-tobacco enterprise that has spent billions demonizing the pleasure of smoking is providing additional reasons to smoke. Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, Tourette's Syndrome, even schizophrenia and cocaine addiction are disorders that are alleviated by tobacco. Add in the still inconclusive indication that tobacco helps to prevent colon and prostate cancer and the endorsement for smoking tobacco by the medical establishment is good news for smokers and non-smokers alike.

Of course the revelation that tobacco is good for you is ruined by the pharmaceutical industry's plan to substitute the natural and relatively inexpensive tobacco plant with their overpriced and ineffective nicotine substitutions. Still, when all is said and done, the positive revelations regarding tobacco are very good reasons indeed to keep lighting those cigarettes."

"There is no solid proof for any of the diseases attributed to tobacco - just statistics and speculative associations, but the ministries of health continue to lie to the public, in a dazzling display of intellectual, professional, moral and political corruption."

"If the intention of "public health" is to inform the public about the consequences of smoking on health as it proclaims, why don't we see "warnings" such as: "Smoking Protects against Parkinson's Disease," or "Smoking protects against Alzheimer's Disease," or "Smoking protects against Ulcerative Colitis" and so on, alongside with the other speculations on "tobacco-related" disease? Isn't the function of public health to tell the citizens about ALL the effects on health of a substance?

Obviously not. "Public health," today, is nothing more than a deceiving propaganda machine paid by pharmaceutical and public money to promote frauds, fears, and puritanical rhetoric dressed up in white coats."

OK, I'm running for cover now ....

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 08:18 AM

Well Johnny, I do hope I get to meet you someday, so you can see I'm not just spouting fantasies about my health or my appearance. And I promise I'd never let you kiss me!

The only real reason I have to quit smoking today is financial. In Canada today, the ever-increasing astromical taxes levied on tobacco products are one of the hugest cash cows in history.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 08:44 AM

"A little of what you fancy does you good"?

Not impossible - but the emphasis should be on a little.

And what people always seem to brush aside is that smoking is by no means the only way to take nicotine, and that tobacco is by no means the only thing we can smoke.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 01:26 PM

Daylia, did you ever hear that song I wrote to the tune of that other old song "In the land of France...etc"

Big Cash Cow

Smoking makes you smell
Smoking rots your lungs to hell
Smoking's ugly and it's needless
Major spending for the heedless
It's a big cash cow
And it wants your dollars now!

Join the line of fools
On the sidewalk by the school
Join the ranks of local losers
Couch potatoes, junkies, boozers
Join the line of sheep
Smoke your lungs out, fall asleep
Drink your coffee, eat your burger
Unpremeditated murder
It's a big cash cow
And it wants your dollars now!

Do I mind your smoke?
Yes, I do, I hope you choke
Take your cancer stick and stick it
Flick your Bic into the thicket
It's a big cash cow
And it wants your dollars now!

We had just made love
When she slipped out of her glove
A narcotic that is legal
Doesn't change the fact it's evil
I said, "Thanks, I'll pass.
I would rather have some grass.
It's less bad for you, and it's less addictive too!"

Take your smoke break, Jack
Take it somewhere down the track
Back behind the cancer station
At the heart attack location
Take your smoke break, please
But don't do it next to me
It's a big cash cow
And it wants your dollars NOW! (now...now...now...)

I thought it was interesting that you used the term "cash cow" in one of your recent posts, and it reminded me of this lyric (which I wrote back in the 90's). As you know, I'm not inclined to actually smoke grass either, but I thought it was funny to put it in the song in order to make a point. It is less harmful to the general public than tobacco, in my opinion.

Now, it's true you are in pretty good shape. The fact is some (a few) people are not affected much by smoking. Many others are definitely sickened and killed by it. It varies from person to person. You could say that about a lot of things. It's also true that you can find plenty of unhealthy nonsmokers...but you know why that is?

It's because there are at least 50,000 different ways (physical and psychological) in which a person can become unhealthy!!! :-) I won't endeavour to list them all here. Smoking is just one of them.

Now here's a question: Is it really worth it to go on winning this particular little symbolic victory over your mother...when you tally up the yearly $ expense? I may be wrong, but I think that's what it really amounts to. It's your declaration of independence against parental (in your case, maternal) domination. We who suggest that smoking is bad for people are not your mother!

Another couple of thoughts. You note that those who quit smoking gain weight. Yes! Not poisoning the body does tend to increase it's ability to injest nutrients effectively, and appetite gets increased too...as people have a yen to replace the smoke break with other forms of oral gratification...eating food, I mean. :-) However....consider just how THIN I might be then if I were a smoker!!!!!!! (gasp!) I might just disappear entirely if I were to take up smoking. :-) This would not be good. No, I think the reason your friends are gaining weight after quitting smoking is this: they are eating an overly rich North American diet and not getting enough exercise. What they need to do is not smoke...but eat a better diet and get more exercise!

Not bloody likely, right? (grin) Here's an idea, daylia...open a chain of health spas for weight loss. The program: Smoke more cigarettes daily in order to lose weight! See if you can get people up to 5 packs a day if that's what it takes. Anything is worth taking off those extra pounds, right? Women would really go for this, I think, because they almost all think they're overweight. I figure the tobacco industry would be willing to provide substantial financial aid to anyone who started such a program, so contact 'em and go for it! You could become the "weight loss queen" of Canada and maybe get the Order of Canada for it and get to meet Adrienne Clarkson.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:22 PM

LH, for as long as I've known you, smoking has been one of your favorite things to bash. Pretty easy target, for anybody who's never smoked.

For smokers, those lyrics are discourteous, offensive, ignorant and inflammatory.   But for non-smokers looking for someone or something to ridicule and hate? I'm sure they're just peachy!

In recent years I've noticed you've become more and more insulting and obnoxious toward smokers, including me. I'm guessing that the couple decades now of corrupt politics, media slandering and deliberate public misinformation about tobacco have finally had their desired effect, even on agreeable and open-minded people like yourself. :-(

Afer all, EVERYONE has permission to publicly insult, hate, preach at and demonize smokers today. WHy not you too?

We who suggest that smoking is bad for people are not your mother!

I suggest people educate themselves thoroughly, looking carefully at ALL scientific and first-hand evidence on both sides of the issue, before giving anyone "suggestions" about their private affairs.

I also highly recommend refraining from giving ANY unsolicited "advice"

(grin) Here's an idea, daylia...open a chain of health spas for weight loss. The program: Smoke more cigarettes daily in order to lose weight! See if you can get people up to 5 packs a day if that's what it takes. Anything is worth taking off those extra pounds, right? ... You could become the "weight loss queen" of Canada and maybe get the Order of Canada for it and get to meet Adrienne Clarkson.

Uh oh. Are you really losing it, LH?

Or maybe I've just lost my sense of tee-hee.

OK, pull yourself together now daylia ... this calls for another ....

BITE ME!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 04:55 PM

Hey Daylia, I wouldn't necessarily trust anything the Swedes say! :0) I was working there for a week recently and I found many of the guys (and gals) cramming what looked like little tea-bags in their mouths between their top lip and gum. They then proceeded to tell me how bad the low-fat crisps I ate with my lunch are for my health. Then they described how smoking is a serious health risk, so they use these little tea-bags (which contain tobacco and smell like dog-shit) "because they're not such a health-risk". Then (and I almost puked at this) they showed me the holes in their gums and cheeks that sucking on these things causes - one guy (who actually doesn't use the tea-bags, but buys the gunge that's inside them 'loose' in a tin, and shoves handfuls of it up his gums) had a hole right through into his nose! How gross is that??

Conclusion - just like smokers, the Swedes I met will dream up any justification for their madness! :0)

Please don't bite me! (LOL) :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 05:42 PM

Daylia - most of the negativity on this thread is either generated by you or directed to you. NOT to smokers in general.

Congrats on being healthy. But if you don't like anti-smokers gloating, maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't gloat yorself. Besides, if smoking is such a healthy exercise, you should be in the norm, and it's just silly to gloat as you're just part of the herd.

Have a grand and glorius day folks.

and feel free to attack me. I would expect nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 05:47 PM

http://www.forces.org/index.php is the home page for the "evidence" for the "health benefits of smoking" site posted. It refers most often back to itself, doesn't name the sources of the studies, and when it does quote articles it is careless with the information and draws unwarranted conclusions. Don't bet the farm on what you read there. Under the table this one is funded by smoking industry supporters, if not the industry itself. Cash cow, indeed!

Too many non-smokers had to withstand decades of smokers lighting up without reference to anyone else in the vehicle, the house, the office, the plane or bus--pity the poor sod stuck in the last row of the "non-smoking" section of an airliner on a long flight. They knew they felt and smelled bad after involuntary exposure. Those unfortunate enough to live with thoughtless smokers aren't likely to give an inch on this issue now, and with good reason.

Google smoking disease images.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 06:08 PM

Sounds a painful way of getting nicotine up to the preferred level, Johnny.   I can't imagine why they don't just go back to the relatively sociable practice of taking snuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 06:47 PM

Article in the Guardian today says that research on traffic exhaust pollution in Oxford says that standing in the main street in Oxford gives toxic levels equivalent to smoking sixty cigarettes a day. But I rather doubt if most of the ban-smking in pubs brigade will be prepared to draw the obvious conclusion from this interesting statistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 06:47 PM

I have smoked for decades. I wish I had never started. Best I have been able to do is get down to about eight a day. If you don't smoke, don't start. I figure I have smoked a house during my life--a quarter million dollar house. I have also no doubt cut ten years off my life. I wish I could quit, but I know I can't. I have been able to beat every addiction in my life but this one--and coffee. So, while I appreciate Daylia's right to smoke, I hope she appreciates my right to tell you that smoking is stupid. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 06:55 PM

Also, lest anyone think the addictions were light ones, they weren't.

They were heroin, amphetamine and alcohol.

Respectively, I have not used H for over 30 years, A for over 35 years and alcohol for over 19 years. I have had four cigarettes today, and it is hard to pace my smoking for another 42 minutes until the next one. Stewpid.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 06:58 PM

Daylia: while I appreciate your sticking it to the health nazis from time to time, I think personally you just might be pushing your luck a bit. I hope you touch wood when you write your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 07:10 PM

Are you just pulling my antlers about those Swedes, Johnny?       :-E

Daylia - most of the negativity on this thread is either generated by you or directed to you. NOT to smokers in general.

Blackcatter, are you sure we're talking about the same thread here???

But if you don't like anti-smokers gloating, maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't gloat yorself. Besides, if smoking is such a healthy exercise, you should be in the norm, and it's just silly to gloat as you're just part of the herd.

Everything I've said here is the truth. Not a word of it was posted to "gloat" - only to present the truth and in so doing, give readers a more complete, balanced - if paradoxical - perspective.

It's disappointing that this is interpreted as "gloating", but given the nature of the topic at hand I suppose it's understandable. :-(


Under the table this one is funded by smoking industry supporters, if not the industry itself.

If that's what you'd prefer to believe, be my GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 04:37 AM

Daylia - absolutely NOT. I am many things, but I'm not a liar! They were on sale in the UK a number of years ago. There was a very heavy TV campaign against them (Esther Rantzen I think) as they are so highly carcinogenic, she had plenty of horrific photos and video footage of the damage and disease they caused and I believe they were banned here (never see them nowadays anyway). I just introduced my experience of the Swedes here to illustrate the skewed thinking that your post about 'smoking's good for you' seemed to be based on.

Nowt personal lass, I recognise your right to enjoy smoking and I don't suggest it makes you a second-class citizen the way some people around here do - I just don't believe it's a sensible pastime, and it's certainly bad for anyone within a 5-metre radius of any smoker. Not to mention the vast number of hospital beds taken up by sufferers of self-inflicted smoking-related illnesses which could otherwise be put to more beneficial use.

SJ :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 05:01 AM

Article in the Guardian today says that research on traffic exhaust pollution in Oxford says that standing in the main street in Oxford gives toxic levels equivalent to smoking sixty cigarettes a day. But I rather doubt if most of the ban-smking in pubs brigade will be prepared to draw the obvious conclusion from this interesting statistic.

I know this is your hobby horse, Greg, and you know my views so it should be no surprise but I refer to my earlier statement. I have to drive to do my job! So do millions of others. So what is the 'obvous conclusion'? Traffic is bad for you? If so, what do we do about it? We can ban smoking in pubs as a possitive step. I would be more than happy if we had the same proportion of no smoking pubs as non smokers. We cannot, yet, ban traffic. Roll on the day when we do find the way but it is not possible yet. Unless you know something that the rest of us don't?

The statement about standing in Oxfords main street being equivalent to smoking 60 a day is very misleading as well. Standing for how long? What day? What part of the day? Just another statistic I'm afraid and how many of them do you believe?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: HuwG
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 05:30 AM

I do not and never have smoked, and normally would leave this debate well alone. However, I once had the misfortune to work alongside a heavy smoker. It wasn't that the smoke bothered me. It was that his daily schedule went, roughly:

09:00 Arrive. Turn on PC. Demand coffee
09:05 Go outside for cigarette
09:20 Log in to system. Check e-mails
09:25 Go outside for cigarette
09:40 Read first e-mail. Forward it to HuwG.
09:45 Go outside for cigarette
10:00 Take telephone call from manager. (The manager has been funing on the other end of the phone for ten minutes, and venting his frustration on a secretary and myself when we decline to physically drag my co-worker inside). Tell manager that he has passed the matter to HuwG to deal with.
10:05 Go outside for cigarette.
10:20 Demand coffee. Read second e-mail. Decide that time is too short to read through the archived messages to determine the full extent of the subject under discussion. Send second e-mail to deleted items.
10:25 Go outside for cigarette

and so on.

Obviously, the management were at fault here for allowing this state of affairs, and to an extent so was I, for acquiescing in it. However, this doesn't excuse the fact that the man in question could smoke twenty cigarettes and do between thirty-five and forty minutes work in a day, while those less self-indulgent had to put in a full working day but earn no more recognition and salary.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Sooz
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 05:50 AM

While I wouldn't want to spend all day standing in a busy street, I might well want to spend a similar amount of time in a singaround!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 06:52 AM

It would be quite possible to ban motor vehicles from central Oxford. Or peripheral Oxford for that matter. And it would greatly improve the place. It managed perfectly well before they invented the things.

It's just a matter of political will.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 07:20 AM

Johnny, I didn't mean to imply you're a liar - I've just never seen or heard of anything like you've described before, and thought maybe you were kidding me. That's one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard!   

GUEST says the scientific 'evidence' in the article I posted is probably funded or slanted by the tobacco industry. Well, for all I know s/he's right!   The article posted claims that the scientific 'evidence' against smoking is mere speculation guised as "truth" ... nothing more than a deceiving propaganda machine paid by pharmaceutical and public money to promote frauds, fears, and puritanical rhetoric dressed up in white coats. Well, that makes LOT of sense to me too.

Consequently, I don't know what to believe about so-called "scientific evidence"! So it feels wisest to trust my own experiences and observations first - because that doesn't require a leap of faith. IT's the only 'evidence' I KNOW, without a doubt, to be true.

It's also true that at today's prices, smoking only 6-12 cigarettes/day costs me about $1000/year, $900 of which goes straight to the gov't and the anti-smoking lobby. THAT's the fact that gives me this most godawful pain right in the heart - (or rather, the wallet). It's a MOST excellent reason to quit!

And like McGrath says, there's other things to smoke anyway (not that I'd ever want to ... although I've heard that morning glory seeds and mugwort make quite the interesting combo!   ;-)

So when I do quit, I'll start a thread about it. I'm sure I'll get all kinds of kindly support here! JUst PLEASE don't sing me any anti-smoking-let's-all-hate-those-stupid-smoker songs!   All that does is give me a powerful urge to light up and blow it all away.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 08:04 AM

It would be quite possible to ban motor vehicles from central Oxford. Or peripheral Oxford for that matter. And it would greatly improve the place. It managed perfectly well before they invented the things.

Why stop at Oxford, Kevin? Lets ban all traffic from everywhere. After all, why should it only be Oxford that benefits from this piece of imaginative, environmentaly friendly legislation? There is nothing to stop us doing it now. We don't need motorised transport at all. We don't need computers. We don't need TV. In fact. Lets ban everything we don't need!

After all its just a matter of politcal will.

Now, let me think. Does music and culture come under that heading Possibly even Folk music...;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 09:02 AM

Cities are much pleasanter places without cars all over the place. There are already some cities which have banned cars, and someday I hope it'll be the normal thing. Rather like banning smoking in cinemas and pubs. There's a place and a time for everything - well, most things, anyway. Cities just aren't the place for cars.

The whole point of cities is to have lots of things close together, and that way you can do without cats. (Yes I know there are places that cll themselves cities that aren't like that. But Oxford isn't one of them.)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM

It's OK, Kevin. I did realise - Just couldn't resist taking the same argument to a ridiculous conclusion. And I do agree about the cities. I would dearly love the whole transport system to be overhauled so there was less traffic everywhere - but it is not going to happen overnight.

It is futile to try and group smoking in with the nightmare of global polution. We might as well say there is no point arresting thieves while there is global theft taking place amongst the worldwide businesses or that we should not imprison murders until war is dealt with.

The big issues will be be dealt with (hopefuly!) but lets start where we can. Large oaks, small acorns eh?

Incidentaly the Guardian article which started this train of thought was based on statistics commisioned by Calor, who make LPG. Now does that give an indication of why the statistics are so against the petrol engine???

If we read a bit further on we find that "A pedestrian hanging about in Marylebone Road in London would draw in the pollutants of one cigarette from the ambient air in 48 minutes. In Oxford it would take just 24 minutes." So, to take in the equivalent of 60 cigarettes our pedestrian would need to hang around the high street in Oxford for a full 24 hours. What was it about lies, damned lies and statistics?

I cannot give any scientific evidence of this but my body tells me that I can walk around Manchester and Salford all day with no apparant ill effects. But if I sit next to smokers in our folk club for an hour I start to wheeze, my eyes go red and mu nose streams. If I wait another 30 minutes I need my inhalor. If I don't have my inhalor I could die. Yet I am still not totaly anti-smoking in pubs.

Just please, please, please give me somewhere where I can walk to and enjoy a pint without staring death in the face and don't try to cloud (pun intended) the issues with irrelevancies.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 11:15 AM

"and that way you can do without cats."

Sorry, moggies, as if - I meant "cars"...

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 06:22 PM

Hey McGrath
Try walking or riding your bicycle around my part of Chicago and then tell me how many days you last before being assualted.Thanks anyway, but I think I'd rather pollute than be dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 06:37 PM

I wrote that song for laughs, daylia, back some considerable time before society started putting health warnings on cigarette packages and passing laws restricting smoking in public places (not that I didn't have a real point in it, though). I haven't bothered writing any more anti-smoking songs since the government started passing restrictive legislation or since it became fashionable in the mainstream to attack smoking. I only tend to write stuff like that when I'm still more or less a voice in the wilderness. I don't need to write it anymore now. No point belabouring something that's obvious to most people already.

You don't seem to be getting my humour on this particular issue.

I have smoked...in Native ceremonies. (And grass on a handful of occasions.) Like I said in an earlier post, I could see right away what was pleasant about it. It's not pleasant to breathe someone else's secondhand smoke, but it is definitey pleasant to smoke oneself...once past childhood and the exquisitely fine senses of a young body (you said yourself that when you first clandestinely tried cigarettes as a youngster they tended to make you feel sick).

Children's bodies are rather wiser in some respects than older bodies. A child knows right away that the smoke doesn't taste or feel good...but with an adult it's different. A child knows right away that beer doesn't taste good, but an adult relates differently to that too. (usually)

No animal would willingly inhale smoke, but a human would. That's because humans are programmed by culture and it overrides their most natural impulses with artificially acquired thinking.

If we lived in a society where it was taken for granted that the little finger of the left hand MUST be surgically removed in youth (like tonsils, foreskins, or wisdom teeth for example)...then you... and I suspect pretty well everyone else (including probably me) would have had it done without a second thought...and we would look askance at people who had not had it done!!!

That's how programmed we are.

You smoke because you saw others doing it when you were young. And now you like it. Perfectly understandable. That's why I shave. (I don't need to, but I'm used to the idea.) And it's also why we customarily cover certain parts of the body when in public...but men's nipples are not seen as obligatory to cover in public...except when in a restaurant, business meeting, movie theater, or another somewhat more formal situation, perhaps! Women's bare nipples, on the other hand, are a totally contraband item, except in certain carefully prescribed circumstances (strip clubs, certain magazines, certain movies, and in private, of course).

It's custom! Programmed behaviour. And it's totally arbitrary, in most cases. It has nothing to do with good or evil. No one was ever yet attacked or injured by a bare nipple! But people have been attacked and prosecuted for violating the custom.

Doesn't any of that strike you as just a bit amusing...from a certain point of detachment?

I shall remember, Greg, to avoid standing on the street in Oxford...if at all possible. :-)

To ban cars from downtown areas and replace them with excellent public transportation of a non-polluting nature would be a superb idea! Another superb idea would be to ban the burning of fossil fuels by internal combustion engines beyond a specified date (like 5 years from now) and to replace them all with non-polluting power in as short a time as humanly possible. It could be done.

It just so happens that there is a corporate oligarchy ruling us that doesn't want that done. They have money to make by burning gasoline...just like the tobacco companies have money to make by selling cigarettes. Money calls the shots under the present system and funds and controls the politicians. What do you suggest, Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 07:51 AM

You smoke because you saw others doing it when you were young.

I smoke for a lot of reasons, LH - then and now. Nicotine is a physical and mental stimulant as well as an anti-depressant.

No, the 'evidence' posted above is not bogus - here is a Guardian article documenting the href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/smoking/Story/0,2763,1263918,00.html">benefits of nicotine. This sheds more light on why people smoke, instead of just blaming peer pressure, labelling them "stupid sheep" etc.

And here's another about the theurapeutic effects of nicotine on such conditions as Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, colitis etc.

Type "Yale studies on nicotine" into your search bar, and you'll find the "straight dopamine" right down to the receptors and neurotransmitters (brain chemistry), straight from the horse's mouth.

These studies DO NOT advocate smoking as a means of stimulating the growth of nicotine receptors though. The risks associated with inhaling smoke of any kind may outweigh any benefits - depending on the genetics, diet and lifestyle of the smoker.

LH, you say you wrote the song for laughs, and I'm sure you did. Have you ever noticed who laughs and who doesn't when you sing it, I wonder?

Singing it may amuse you, but for people like me those lyrics feel like a kick in the face.

Just so you know.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 07:56 AM

Oops, I must have messed up the cut and paste ... here's the link to the Guardian article.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:14 PM

Well, actually, I haven't sung it in years. I occasionally get requests to sing "Mean Nicotine", though, another anti-smoking song that several people in song circle seem to like for some reason. Even Mike Latter likes it, and he smokes like the proverbial chimney.

I got around to writing anti-smoking songs mainly because I passively suffered for about 50 years of my life from being trapped on buses, airplanes, in restaurants, in cars, and in various other places where I could not escape from breathing other people's smoke and it always made me feel sick. Writing the songs was my way of fighting back. Once the government started regulating it so people could not smoke in those public enclosed places, I had really little reason to be concerned about it anymore.

But don't forget...for 50 years I was on the receiving end of someone else's bad habit...and could do NOTHING about it. Guess what that is like. That is why I grew to truly hate cigarettes, and believe me, I do hate them.

And I repeat...you started smoking for one reason only...you saw others doing it and wanted to imitate them.

Subsequently, of course, you continued smoking for a whole lot of additional reasons, such as the nicotine connection, the stimulation, and so on. But the initial decision to start (against your own body's better judgement) was triggered by powerful cultural programming.

In the same way, people consent to don a uniform, undergo rigorous and unpleasant military training, surrender their personal independence to officers, and go out on a battlefield and kill and maim other people similar to themselves in a war. It's a dumb thing to do, but people do it because they are culturally programmed to by thousands of years of social custom.

After they have been doing it for awhile, they develop all kinds of additional reasons to keep doing it: pride in their unit, hatred of the enemy, patriotic fervour, the desire for promotion, fear of being seen as "weak" by their comrades, whatever...it becomes a habit.

All culturally induced forms of behaviour are like that. Smoking is just one of them.

It's also true, as you and I well know, that many of the brightest and most brilliant people in the history of the World have been enthusiastic and lifelong smokers...so my depiction of the typical smoker as a bottom-end "loser" in the song was obviously a gross generalization. You don't fit that picture and neither do a great many other smokers. On the other hand, though, you will find that wherever there is increased poverty and ignorance there tends to be a higher per capita daily use of tobacco, alcohol, and all other addictive substances...and that was the point being made in the song lyric.

It was not an attack on you, it was an attack on an addictive drug habit and its general consequences upon society.

I could've written a similar song about alcoholism...but it hasn't bothered me near as much in my actual day to day life as cigarette smoke did for those 50 years I mentioned...because I don't get a hangover by sitting 6 feet away from someone else who is drinking. (I just have to watch out for him when he's behind the wheel of a car.)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:21 PM

Chicago isn't Oxford. Isn't it a megalopolis rather than a city?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 01:25 PM

Thanks for explaining why you wrote the song, LH. I understand exactly how you felt about being subjected to other people's smoke in enclosed space. I know how contradictory this must sound coming from a smoker, but the truth is I am also very grateful for the new bylaws prohibiting smoking in public places.

I couldn't count how many times in my life I lit a cigarette when I didn't really want it ... but smoking myself somehow made being in a room full of second-hand smoke a bit less nauseating.


Remember the Grail, for instance? YUK.   :-(


And you're right - when I lit that first cigarette at the ripe old age of 10, it was of course because of "cultural conditioning". Certainly the idea didn't just pop into my head naturally!
Good comparison with military training - that made your point a lot clearer.

On the other hand, though, you will find that wherever there is increased poverty and ignorance there tends to be a higher per capita daily use of tobacco, alcohol, and all other addictive substances...and that was the point being made in the song lyric.

That's true, statistically ... and it's interesting that a whopping 95% of schizophrenics are smokers. According to the on-line research I've been doing, apparently nicotine helps control hallucinations.

Hey LH, Aloha nui loa. I can be overly-sensitive sometimes when it comes to anti-tobacco songs (and other perceived insults). Thank you for saying you don't mean it personally - now I'll quit taking it that way.

daylia

PS remember, harm nothing with hatred. Not even poison ivy! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Person with Schizophrenia
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:13 PM

persons with schizophrenia not only smoke, but they intake caffene, alcohol and illigal drugs in much higher quantitie than the average person.. It's all about self-medication, whether they are aware of that or not. Various drugs can moderate, not only the symptoms of the disease, but the side affects of their perscription drugs.

With a disease that literally hijacks a person's mind, ANY control, no mater how minor, and no matter how it's accomplished, is a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:45 PM

Yup, that's a good rule to go by, daylia. Thanks for the good wishes, they are returned. :-) As for poison ivy, I have learned to be watchful for it and not to hate it. I am still trying to figure out where it fits into nature's plan...but I haven't had any bad encounters with it in many years now.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:14 PM

Well lucky you, LH! I still have the scars on my leg from an encounter last spring.

Poison ivy is a bit like tobacco in that if you recognize it for what it is, treat it with respect, and stay away from it if you're allergic to it you'll have no problems. It's a bit unlike tobacco in that tobacco DOES have some redeeming qualities!

Person with Schizophrenia, thank you for posting. I know what you say is true ... all of the few people I've known with schizophrenia not only smoked but "self-medicated" in the manner you describe. In the same way when I feel anxiety or depression, I notice I want to smoke more often.

Unfortunately the use of drugs, "self-prescribed" or otherwise, does not address the cause but only the symptoms of depression or schizophrenia - more or less successfully, but always temporarily.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:16 PM

A couple of random reactions:

Chicago may be more megopolis than city, but that's not why driving might be harder to avoid there than in Oxford. It's because of fear of crime, at least in the correspondant's neighborhood. New York City is one of the most mega of all megalopoli [?], but it's the one place in the US where you are *least* likely to want or to use a car. Parking is impossible, and public transporation is excellent.

More to the topic at hand: when people claim that tobacco relaxes them, or stimulates them, or somehow makes them more alert or smarter, they're kidding themselves. The only way in which they're making themselves feel better is by alleviating their withdrawal from their last smoke.

It's exactly what happens for hard-core heroin users, who can't even remember the last time they got high, and now recognize that when they need to score another hit, they're doing so to "get straight." Only difference is, the junkies are realistic about their situation while the smokers usually are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 07:54 PM

I'm sure that last applies to people who are regular smokers. I wouldn't be so certain about occasional users, like the husband mentioned up the thread who only smokes at folk festivals.

For some people, of course, occasional smoking isn't possible, the same way that for some people occasional drinking isn't possible. But it just doesn't work that way with everyone. Which isn't a matter of strength of will or anything, I'm certain, it's just that bodies work differently.

(And no, I don't smoke, and dislike being in a room where people are smoking cigarettes.)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Metchosin
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:00 AM

McGrath, regarding those who can partake in the use of tobacco, at will, and have no problem putting it aside. There was some research done, within the last year or so, that determined that about 15% of all people genetically lack a certain receptor in their brain, that the the chemical in nicotine "plugs" into. As a result they do not become "addicted" to the nicotine.

The other 85% of the population has the receptor and hence are genetically predisposed to addiction to the chemical.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:02 AM

Interesting. I must not have the corresponding alcohol receptor, and maybe not the nicotine one either, but who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Metchosin
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:18 AM

If I recall correctly, Little Hawk, the receptor for nicotine was also the same one as for heroine or some other hard drug as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 01:36 AM

Not having that receptor might explain my brother's ability to smoke a cigarette maybe once in three months. He did that for 30 years or so.

There is no way I could have done that. The reason I stopped when I did is that I was smoking more and more heavily and getting more and more obsessive about it. In the old days, if I had a mostly full pack in my purse I was comfortable leaving home. By the time I quit 25 years later, I was lugging up to three extra packs.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:25 AM

That's interesting, Metchosin   - after I posted that last I started wondering if there'd been any proper research into that kind of thing.

We do seem to be so quick to assume that what is true for us must be true for other people - it comes into discussions about the best way to learn and the best way to teach for example. There's a tendency to react as if, when someone appears to work diffeently, they must somehow be faking.

It comes up a lot in the context of arguments about differences between men and women, but I think thats just one small aspect of much wider differences in the way we are wired-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:12 AM

Everyone has "nicotine receptors", and lots of 'em folks. They are how your neurons (brain cells) process acetycholine - which is one of MANY neurotransmitters (vital nerve chemicals). Acetycholine was the first neurotransmitter discovered, and it's 4 non-muscarinic receptors were dubbed "nicotine receptors" because of their obvious function in processing nicotine in the brain. But that is certainly not their only, or even most vital function.

Smokers develop a lot more of them over time, due to exposure to nicotine. Nicotinic receptors (sorry bout the scientific jargon)

Nicotinic receptors are found in a variety of tissues, including the autonomic nervous system, the neuromuscular junction and the brain in vertebrates. They also are found in high quantities in the electric organs of various electric eels and rays.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:23 AM

who pinched the 200th post while I was out having a fag then?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:19 AM

That was one long fag, ted! How's the ole receptors now?   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Metchosin
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 02:09 PM

The further interesting thing is that it is considered a natural genetic mutation or defect and while male smokers with this mutation are less likely to become addicted to nicotine and more likely to find it easier to quit smoking, the presence or absence of the defective gene does not affect women's smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 02:22 PM

So I'm a mutant?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 02:25 PM

I don't smoke. Smokey atmospheres give me migrane and make me wheezy.
I have been known to spontaniously spurt blood from my nose if the atmosphere is too thick.
Unfortunatly I can't do it on demand!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 03:06 PM

Unfortunately I can't do it on demand! Pity really - that could be quite an effective way of getting a smoke-free session...

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 03:32 PM

No, you are not a mutant McGrath. "Nicotinic receptors" are not mutations at all, but specific proteins on the surface of nerve cells which are there to receive a vital chemical in the brain called acetycholine.   This chemical, called a neurotransmitter, carries information from one nerve cell to another.

Certain types of acetycholine receptors also react with nicotine. In fact, it was through experiments with nicotine that they were discovered in the first place - hence the name "nicotinic receptors". They occur naturally in all humans and most animals - 17 specific genes have been linked to them so far. With repeated exposure to nicotine, these receptors increase in size and number.

Recent experiments with mice show that when the number of a specific type of nicotinic receptor is reduced through genetic alteration, the mice do not become addicted to nicotine. Under normal genetic conditions, mice become addicted to nicotine just as humans do.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:45 PM

McGrath, aren't you lucky you weren't the smoker who had to stuff mice up his nose to discover all of this?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:09 PM

Up the nose is a better choice than in the ear. You never just know when the mice might ROAR!

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:27 PM

I knew it! Man I had no idea what was goin' on back in the 40's when I helped protect that A-bomb project. I feel kind of sick when I think about it now. I thought I was helping to save the world. Thank God for my daily cigar habit.

Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:36 PM

Daylia, that's an absolutely fascinating viewpoint that is presented on that webpage. I wonder if it is accurate? I do not doubt for a moment that the nuclear tests have had very bad effects on the human race (and other living things) and caused many, many cancers to develop, and the governments which authorized the testing are to blame for it. They would indeed wish to find a scapegoat, wouldn't they?

I have also observed that regular heavy tobacco smoking is quite bad for people's health, however, and ages them prematurely in various ways. Light tobacco smoking on the other hand is probably not bad for people's health. It certainly didn't mess up the health of North American Indians in the old days...and they were very light smokers by today's standards.

Much food for thought on that webpage. Maybe I should take up smoking a cigar or two a day, like Chongo. :-)

I suspect that you will get some very intemperate responses to that site from people whose minds are already all made up!

I find it interesting to consider what it says. I still detest the smell of cigarettes and cigars (when they're burning), but I am willing to consider alternative viewpoints on this matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:37 PM

LH, the viewpoint on that webpage tolls like a funeral bell. It is lucid, historically accurate, well-presented, and worst of all ... it really does fit in with a lifetime of personal experience with smoking.

As a light-to-moderate smoker, I've often wondered if it's that extra coating of mucous - that little "smoker's cough" which is really more of a throat-clearing than a cough - which protects me from the atmospheric irritants and that cause asthma and allergies in the non-smoking members of my family and so many others I know.

I spend my life teaching private music lessons to kids with colds and various stages of the flu. How is it that I, a supposedly sickly and oh-so-vulnerable-to-every-disease smoker, never "catch" their bugs unless I'm also very over-tired or otherwise stressed? Could it be that same protective coating in my throat and lungs?

Counting my blessings and knocking on wood,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 08:35 PM

Raptor had very bad asthma when he was smoking heavily, daylia. And I think he's still got it now that he quit, but I'm not sure. I do know he used to cough for an hour after waking up in the morning. I think he coughs less now. Again, I'm not sure. Ask him.

I can see how the coating of mucus might protect the lungs from certain irritants.

Another angle on this: When people quit using any drug they go through withdrawal symptoms and become more sensitive to various things. So I'm not surprised that this would happen to a smoker who quit. It's like your system gets a chance to wake up and smell the roses...or the stuff that isn't so pleasant as the roses.

I know for sure that smoking damages the singing voice. So does drinking too much whisky. :-) Listen to Bob Dylan for proof of both of those.

I figure I'm going to die anyway, so I guess I'll chance going without the coating of mucus in the interim.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Joybell
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:07 PM

Well that's all very well for those who have the ability to make extra mucus. I've no quarrel with smokers who keep their smoke to themselves, I hasten to say, but I've been given the line about smoking's benefits often enough. It is usually fed to me while the smoker is breathing their smoke in my face. Often in a non-smoking area!
The autoimmune disease from which I suffer is not at all rare. It damages the moisture-producing cells throughout the body. It's particularly damaging to the lungs where it destroys the supporting connective tissue and the mucus lining. Being in a room with even one smoker becomes a very risky encounter. A fatal attack of asthma is not the way I want to go. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Scoville
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 11:19 PM

Nonsmoker. (Of course, I've lived around big cities my whole life and have probably inhaled enough other airborne toxins to almost make up for it).

I never started, and nobody in my immediate family smokes. My grandfather smoked all his life and died of a heart attack a week before I was born (I was born in New Jersey because my mother, who had never done the childbearing thing before, didn't know not to travel at 7 1/2 months and went home for his funeral; I arrived early). He was very much looking forward to seeing his only daughter's first child.

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:01 AM

Just been out for a quick fag, did I miss owt?

Subject: RE: BS: Smoker/Non-Smoker?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:38 PM

Maybe I should take up smoking a cigar or two a day.

That's not light smoking. One a week might be. Depending on the cigar.