When is it time to leave a band?

Subject: When is it time to leave a band?
From: nosluap57
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 03:33 PM

When is time to leave a band?

The situation sucks.

I've been invloved in a Christian rock band for three years, playing rhythm guitar. I have never been a band prior to this one, so I would guess that I am a rookie when it comes to dynamics and relationships within a band. I will not go into any details on what has been happening, but suffice it to say I am seriously considering leaving the group. I feel my reasons are legitimate, and that there is not a very good chance the underlying issues can be resolved.

So I am faced with a dilema, of sorts. Do I stay and try to find a way to mitigate those unresolved issues? Or would it be better to walk?

I am hoping for any insights or wisdom which can be shared with me which might shed light on things I have not considered.

hmmm, after reading this, sounds almost like a "Dear Abby" letter....

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: MMario
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 03:38 PM

Have you presented your issues to the band as a group? Or given the nature of your music is there any chance of bringing in clergy (or someone else for that matter) as a mediator?

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 03:45 PM

LOL-- was afraid it was a member of ours asking!

See PM.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Spot
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 03:56 PM

Hallo everybody...

          If you're thinking about it seriously enough to post here, then my feeling is - you need to go!! Dont waste time trying to resolve the unresolvable...or feeling guilty...!! Find another band or set one up yourself!!
Just my opinion, based on my experience...good luck!!

                   Regards to all.....Spot

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Scoville
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:01 PM

Sometimes it's just time to go. If you've given them a fair shot at compromise and it still seems like your (yours and the band's) interests are diverging . . . well, that's OK. I bailed a couple of years ago on a music club with whom I had been very involved for over ten years. They were becoming more and more of a "teacher" type organization with much less advanced-level jamming, and very dependent on a small but powerful faction of members. It wasn't what I wanted and I was bored, and resented that so few people continued to support the things that were the reason I had joined in the first place. A handful (literally. We're talking three people) split off and started a tiny jam of our own. It's hardly ideal but it's better and it saved us getting more and more frustrated and angry with the original club.

Obviously, I don't know what the issues are and it's not my place to ask, but I hope you can either resolve them or take your leave with a minimum of hard feelings.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:08 PM

Please pardon my first reaction.

My husband and I have found that a band focusing on Christian music has as many warts as any other band, but also certain priorities and a set of tools at its disposal. (True of church life in general.)

These aspects may actually lead you in another direction entirely from the one you are considering. I have some experience with this if you want to talk privately.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: open mike
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:18 PM

pray

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:29 PM

I'd agree that usually when you seriously consider leaving a group, raising the issue with the group doesn't necessarily resolve it. Still, it might be worth trying, and if you've invested a lot of time and energy in this band, and you didn't try to communicate with the other members, you might regret that part of your decision.

Or if "the situation sucks", truly, then it's probably time to move on. You'll be better prepared to join or form a new group.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:35 PM

There are two main reasons for playing in a band (or for doing most things, come to think of it) - either you really enjoy it, or you're being paid to do it. (Best of all is if you're doing both, I guess)

If you're not enjoying it, and not being paid enough to put up with it, and the people running it aren't going to listen to your problems with what's going on, get out.

I would guess that, if you're pissed off enough to raise the problem with strangers, you don't believe you can resolve the issues within the band, so the answer to your question has to be: NOW.

Good luck.
Andrew

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:35 PM

Leaving a band/having it break up is always difficult, but particularly so with the first one. I was given some very good advice last year (when my second one broke up), which is to develop yourself as a musician independently of whatever band you are in, and not put all your eggs in one basket. Go out and do solo stuff, work on side projects with other people, or other members of the band. That way, if it does come to the crunch you're not facing the total cessation of your life as a musician and it's less gutwrenching.

Admittedly I was given this advice by a musician who is terminally non-committal about projects.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,jim
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 04:54 PM

I have left bands or taken a haitis*, always on good terms with the other members, for various reasons: different musical goals, different professional goals, health reasons, a better opportunity presents itself...

I've found that if I explain my reasons for leaving clearly, that it can be done quite easily. If you have an interest in playing, an opportunity will present itself.

I still get together and jam with members of groups I have left and with people who have left groups that I stayed in.

*Is that how you spell it? You know what I mean.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 05:00 PM

You may find a lot of the pressure you are feeling comes from the religious perspective. Re-think it as if it were a hobby or business band, and forget the need to proselytise or do "God's work".

Try jamming with others or auditioning before you decide, too.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: labougie
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 05:48 PM

Never trust christians - there's ALWAYS a hidden agenda and they're NEVER the sweet reasonable souls they claim to be!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 06:39 PM

That aint just true about christians, it covers the whole spectrum mate.
Guest JMC had it right.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: goodbar
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 08:54 PM

when it stopes being fun.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: goodbar
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 08:54 PM

...that was a typo, so don't think i'm retarded.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 09:35 PM

Hmmm...some very interesting comments here...and good information too!

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: open mike
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 10:03 PM

who makes up the band?
(any other mudcatters in it?)
who has the equipment (if any)?
who books the gigs (if any)?
who decides how to divide the labor?
"    "      " "   "      " proceeds?
do you play at any re-occuring gigs
such as festivals, church functions, etc?
would the remaining band members continue
to play at the places that you have been
playing at? how will it affect your opportunities
to play at similar events?

how will they get along without you?
how will you get along without them?

good luck and let us know how it turns out..

i used to play basically volunteer with a
band where others got paid...(the fate of a
bodhran player??)

and i travelled for nearly an hour to get to
the monthly dance gigs and others came from
minutes away. I finally lobbied for minimal
gas money, but after years of that decided
that it was not worth it, and stopped coming.
I am sorry to say that no one said "where have
you been, are you coming back" or please return..
so i guess it WAS time to discontinue that gig!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Alba
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 10:41 PM

It's time to leave a band when the Band spends more time talking about what they should do rather than actually doing it or...
When one or two of the members go off on an ego trip about who's band it actually is and who started it in the first place. (If that's the case then why did they need other people to join them)...or
When you feel you are being treated with no respect for the effort you are making.....or
When the Music being played no longer makes you happy...that's a crunch point.

That's just my own personal opinion mind you so make of it what you will or don't!!:) I only work on projects with various Musicians rather than just a fixed group of collective Egos....hey it ain't a dirty word, we all have one. It's just that some folks egos are bigger than others and so sometimes that makes it hard for the other Band members to be heard when one or two big egos out of say four egos in the band are taking up so much space on the stage or in the Studio.**smile**

All Bands are not like that however. Some Bands are great and get along just fine and enjoy and respect each others contributions. The audience can hear that in their Music.
It is at the end of the day all down to the personalties of the members I suppose.

I hope all works out well for you whatever you decide to do.
If this ain't the Band for you....there will be another one that is.
Jude

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 10:54 PM

This is the cruelest of cuts.

Weeks, even months before, there were "moths flying" before their eyes.

"your sound, tinckled like rat's feet over broaken glass in a dry celler. Most all of the American Blues/Folk/Sould from the MC are are dead/

Leave and vanish into the darkness (1000 MudCat souls have gone before.)

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: nosluap57
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 01:03 AM

In response to all those above:

I did address my concerns to the group. It touched of a major sh*tstorm, and simply made everything worse.

The issue of respect is very much in play here, and has created a lot of "baggage" for me.

Band rules agreed to by all are disregarded when not convenient.

My suggestions on stylistic direction and arrangements has been disregarded.

So I am going to quit. That will still be sad, in spite of everything. But thanks to all of you who made me realize it is not the end of the musical world for me.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 01:28 AM

"When is it time to leave a band?"

When you start asking that question.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 01:56 AM

You should never voluntarily leave a situation where you are happy.
Clearly you aren't.
Once you have moved on never try to go back.
("If this doesn't work out I can always go back to my old job" is not commitment.)
Finally ,& this is an observation not a criticism, an individual can only become disillusioned if they have illusions in the first place.
Hope whatever you choose to do works out for you.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 03:33 AM

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

|I disagree with everybody on this one.

Every gig I do, theres always someone who looks wistfully at your guitar abnd tells you they 'once in a group'.

the thing is you reaslly do make quite an investment (sometimes financially, but always spiritually) in these ventures. And when you leave, you undersestimate the parturition (is that the word) pains. A lot of people after a day or two, find that they simply can't face building all that up again, and they never put themselves on the line ever again.   And they wind up looking wistfully at your gear after a gig.

This situation is made ten times worse, by the wilfullness of some people, the cavalier nastiness of others, the professional leavers who build groups up and never see a project through, the tendency of talented people to be complete prats...........as Judy Garland said I could go on singing til the cows come home, you all know the song.

My advice for what its worth is.....if the music is happening and people like it, stick with it. You might look a long time before you get that mix right again. Look at all the great bands.... none of them are peopled by angels. All the best bands fight with each other onstage..... the who, the stones, the beatles, the beach boys.

don't be Pete Best or Staurt Sutcliff, not while theres a chance you might get to be John Lennon.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:37 AM

John Lennon wore silly glasses, lived with a strange Japanese woman, and worse of all.... got shot! Leave the band NOW while you still live!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: cptsnapper
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:24 AM

I've always found it useful that I've combined solo & group work: even when I've been in a group the fact of playing solo can give both a song indeed give the group a different dynamic. I've been accused of not being loyal to the group although the person concerned eventually played some solo gigs himself & apparently enjoyed doing so & in his case seemed to find the different perspective to be useful. But that's only my situation.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:34 AM

Can you give the band your 100%,in your frame of mind?I don't think so.Make your decision,explain politely but firm.If it turns sour,then you know you're better off out of there.Anyway,bands break all the time,then get back together again,sometimes.A band is a lot of hard work but,it's only music after all.Good luck.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:47 AM

"All the best bands fight with each other onstage....."

I've been to hundreds of gigs and scores of festivals (as well as playing scores of gigs myself with bands) and I've never seen a fight on stage. I'm obviously watching the wrong bands!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 06:21 AM

SIMPLISTIC ASSESSMENT :-

If you are doing something because it pays you a wage, it is a job. You are not expected to enjoy a job - you do it because it pays you cash which allow you to the things which you do enjoy.
(ignore the fact that some people find a job they also enjoy).

If you are doing something for enjoyment, (being paid minimal expenses does not count as a wage) then you MUST enjoy it. If you are not enjoying it, make your farewells - you don't have to storm out with a big bust-up, you can just say it is time for you to move on (you've stuck it out so long a final 6 gigs gives time for them to look for a replacement).

If that isn't acceptable to them (or to you), then you shouldn't be there at all.

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 07:13 AM

nah melodeonboy, its just the other band members manage to get to the guy sneaking up on you with the meat cleaver every night....

don't take careers advice from someone who goes round Hull shouting olay!
can't do accents)

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 10:11 AM

I wondered what that butcher's apron was doing backstage!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 10:14 AM

Has anyone seen the drummer lately?

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Ross
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 10:21 AM

When the band you're in, starts playing different tunes

Then I'll see you on the dark side of the moon

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: MMario
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 10:35 AM

BTW - the rational behind my question in my first response - you would be surprised at the high percentage of situations where someone is discontent in a job or relationship where they have *not* discussed it or even mentioned it to the other people involved.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 10:54 AM

weelittledrummer, you don't disagree with everyone in this thread. :~)

Some of these posts make me wonder:

Has anybody here ever stayed in a less-than-ideal situation because it met your goals, such as learning someting from people or situations that you really want to learn?

Anybody here ever have to pay their dues to gain the experience necessary for credibility?

Has our culture become so feelings-oriented that our feelings or gratification are considered the only reasonable guide to action?


It doesn't always feel good to be in a learning situation. I bet we could all recall times when a lesson was learned the hard way and when we were grateful (with hindsight), for both the lesson and the patience of the people we learned from.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: jojofolkagogo
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 11:27 AM

Well, my answer is the same as SPOT's :

If its time to ask "should I leave" then I think, probably, the TIME is RIGHT to do just that, LEAVE

Go find new horizons - there are plenty to see ...

Lots of Luck with it

Regards from Jo-Jo
([e-mail])

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 11:38 AM

Susan. this is it! We obviously inhabit the same sort of universe. were I not embarked a upon a lifetime of debauchery and idleness - a bigammous offer of marriage would be inthe next post.

Its only in the fan magazines that the great artists are well adjusted , sweet tempered sweety pies.

For example, Woody Guthrie, by all accounts seems to have made himself disagreeable to both Pete Seeger and Ronnie Gilbert - but who wouldn't want to have met him and seen and learned from seeing that great creative process up close.

And most of these tin pot folk club gods have arrived at the feeling that they're pretty hot shit - because they DO have something to offer. It might not be something you can learn from - but you should be aware that that skill exists - the situation where it works, and where it doesn't.

At the very least before you leave. Make a list of what was good about the band, what you want to take forward with you.

That way you won't end up like me, an old idiot who passed up on a great musical partner without noticing the fact for about 25 years.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Scoville
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 11:44 AM

WYSIWYG (man, I can never spell that) I agree that people shouldn't bail out every time they're the least bit discontented, but this doesn't sound like a "least bit" situation--it sounds like there's been quite a bit of infighting. As I said earlier, I obviously am not in on what is going on with the band, and I cannot tell to what extent nosluap57 is involved (is this an occupation or a serious pasttime? i.e. does his livelihood depend on it?). If he needs it to pay the bills, he's probably better advised to hang in there until something else--musical or otherwise--comes up so he doesn't end up homeless.

If he's doing this out of love of music, it clearly isn't working out and why make yourself miserable trying to do something you love with people who are not headed in the same direction? That doesn't make him a quitter, that just means that he and his bandmates wanted to expend their talent and energy on different things, and he might be better served finding a different group of people with more compatible schedules and goals.

I left the music club because it got to the point where I was starting to hate all things dulcimer, not because I was too lazy to do anything about it (I was the music director and class coordinator, which was a job from Hell, and sometimes ended up teaching three out of four classes myself because everyone else wanted to be led around by the nose by our local celebrity musicians). I play more now than I did then and like it a lot better. I don't play with as many people but we have a better time and are more willing to learn new stuff. I didn't lose a thing.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 11:52 AM

Here's an old ditty, at least 10 seconds old, that I found in a dusty part of my brain. It may shed some light on this discussion, or maybe not:

It's time to leave the band,
When the drummer's wife
Falls in love with your wife
And you fall in love with the drummer.

Now there's many a choice
One makes in life,
But no choice could be dumber,
Then to fall in love with a drummer!

Feel free to substitute "banjo" or your instrument of choice but be sure to make it rhyme.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble, who plays in Roll & Go

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 12:06 PM

w.l.d., I doubt my pastor-husband would agree to bigamy! :~)

Scoville, I am not characterizing anyone as a quitter. I'm just offering an alternate way one can think about the issues; what people choose to do with that is up to them, and not up to me to judge.


There were a lot of things I hated (and could not physically tolerate) about the way my own band was running. I took a bit of time off, during which time my co-leader and I had a lot of long talks about reorganizing some of the structures of who did what. He was better able than I had been, to motivate some needed changes. I came back to a much better situation (IMO for all concerned). If I had decided it on the basis of feelings that were perfectly well justified by the factors involved, I'd have missed a great opportunity to learn to work in a whole new way. I FELT like quitting, and I seriously contemplated not coming back. I'm glad I only took a break, and that the situation was such that I could do that.


Not all bands work by democracy-- our doesn't, although all members do share in making agreements. The reality of our band-- and I suspect many others-- is that without the acknowledged leaders, there would be no band. The other members are fine musicians, each in their own special way, but not all musicians are able (or willing in some cases) to do the work it requires to be a band.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 02:14 PM

noslu, spend your energies finding some new folks to play with. It would be another story if you could hash things out and work through rough spots with the auld group. But if simple attempts to talk and compromise (you are willing to compromise, aren't you?) just result in repeated nasty snits, then there's nothing you can do. Very few bands last past a few years and for good reason, some people grow as people and musicians, meanwhile others grow big egos and drug habits. The only bands that last forever are those which are unusually cordial people, or unusually successful ones who have a huge economic incentive to keep hanging together.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 02:33 PM

Lots of strong (one could even say extreme?) opinions in this thread, and gems of wisdom in most of them.

One facet that I didn't notice being mentioned was the notion of commitment to the group and/or ideals (or, if a business, contract). This was obliquely touched on in the "can the band get along without you" question, but did not seem to be explicitly listed. (or I missed seeing it in the various posts)

If you have made a specific commitment/promise/contract with this band, then that needs to be a factor in the discussion & decision. Not saying you must stick with your commitment come hell or high water - if the situation has changed significantly over time (as it appears from the description), then that promise may need to be re-thought. But it seems a bit narrow-sighted to simply say "leave whenever you want to".

If you have a personal commitment to an ideal, a Cause, and/or God, then consider if a) your continuing in this band can actually help fulfill that commitment rather than interfering with it and b) if you could continue that commitment without being in this particular band.

If there are contractual agreements, including gigs the band has committed to for the future or intellectual property rights (songs written or arranged or recorded), then the contract will need to be revised to adapt to your departure. That's the business/legal version of reconsidering your promise. If your departure would make it impossible for the band to fulfill it's future contracts, that does make it a bit more sticky and liability will need to be considered.

Sounds like in this particular situation, a departure is called for. A responsible person will make reasonable effort to not simply abandon promises or commitments. I assume you've made appropriate efforts in that wise.

Good luck with your future musical endeavors!

Val

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:44 PM

My further advice would be not to be downcast or bitter about how things have panned out, but to look at what you have learned from your time with the band and how you can take it forward.

Well ok you can be downcast and bitter, but just do the other thing too.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:56 PM

Regardless or band politics, bad feelings, money, or any other considerations - if you don't enjoy it anymore, GET OUT.

Good luck

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: open mike
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:57 PM

it stands for What You See Is What You Get that helps me spell "it"

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:01 PM

Most people just call me Susan-- that's how I sign my posts, usually.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:26 PM

I have been following this thread, and am inclined to think along the same lines as weelittledrummer--while sharing a lot of Val's perspectives--

The reasons that you give for wanting to leave have to do with "respect", and the idea that your suggestions on arrangement have been ignored---from this, I am guessing that feel that you should be playing a different role in the band than you have been, and that the band doesn't want it.

My old and dear mentor, Uncle Albert (may his memory live forever) used to say "This ain't a democracy, it's a dictatorship"--and bands are all that way(though most are fairly congenial about it most of the time). It isn't that easy to get a steady gig in a working band--because working bands are fairly rare phenomena--somebody has to make it work--and that means, on ocassion, that somebody has to say, we do this, not this, and everybody else, regardless of personal feelings, has to say, "OK"--because in the long run, making it work is what it's about--

I don't really know anything about what went on in your band, or what was said when the whatever hit the fan--but here are some things to think about--

Did anyone agree with your points?
Did people try to explain to you why your ideas weren't appropriate?
Do others in the band have greater experience and background than you?
Do you feel that you are a better musician/singer/writer/arranger than the others?
Do others disagree with your assessment of your abilities?
Do you have other, immediate, opportunities to perform?
Are there opportunities as good, or better, than the one that you are leaving?
Is the contibution that you have made appreciated?

If the band is a working band, chances are that they can replace you in fairly short order, if necessary, though perhaps not without inconvenience, or regret--whether you can replace them is another story, as the wee one pointed out above--

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 09:37 PM

"When is it time to leave a band?"

When you feel the need to ask that question.


Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 09:42 PM

It's time to leave the band when they stop picking you up on your way to the gig. Which is what Pink Floyd did to Syd Barrett after David Gilmour joined.

Of course, Syd had been torturing them for months at rehearsals by making them learn a tune which he changed every time. He called it "Have You Got It Yet"...

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Grab
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 07:41 AM

Not that the band I'm in is vastly experienced, but...

I disagree about the dictatorship thing. Certainly someone needs to do some coordination, so that everyone knows when practises are, what we're going to focus on each week, where we're playing etc. But as for how to play stuff (or what to play), that's got to be a majority decision. You've got to face it that your favourite songs are not always the favourites of other people - and vice versa, that songs you don't like may still be good ones to play.

If you find you're *never* in agreement with the other folks in the band, then you're probably in the wrong band. It sounds like this is the case for you.

Graham.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 11:23 AM

I quit the high-class, high-achieving church choir I sang in for 13 years because I realized the conductor did not respect me as a musician, and probably never had. I knew it was time to quit because we had a terrific fight (politely, in private, which is how Anglicans fight) and the Real Truth spilled out. I had suspected for years that Mr. Baton would have preferred me to be a counter-tenor and not a mezzo-soprano, but put up with it and invested the extensive time and effort required to do the music because -- as Susan pointed out -- I was learning some very important skills.

Thanks to my 13 years of gallery service, I can sight-read, lead a section, and prepare and perform solos without flustration. I also learned to sight-read my line of a polyphonic 8-part motet at performance speed, blend my voice with that of the factory-whistle counter-tenor beside me, and chant plainsong psalms without error. Was it worth it? You bet. Was it worth staying another minute? Absolutely not.

There are times when the thing to do is to turn your back and walk away. Close that door, because there's another waiting for you to open it.

Charmion the mandolin player.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: jonm
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 11:36 AM

I stuck it out in one band way beyond the pale. When you have two of the same instrument and one musician is older and has been playing longer but the other guy is better in every respect: I took a hell of a lot of chip-on-the-shoulder sniping about my playing, none of it valid according to the rest of the guys but none of them ever stood up for me. I became bloody minded and made sure I gave the other guy no ammunition whatsover for one of his spurious jibes, then, once he realised and gave me some respect..... I quit and left them to understand how much I was adding!

I did make sure that I didn't leave them in the lurch, though.

Recently, in a group of four, one musician dominated since he was always too busy to practice, so he brought along his material and we were accompanists, sometimes one or more of us not getting to play "his" arrangement.

It didn't take long to realise that the rest of us can and do practice, so now we do much more stuff led by the other three individuals (or pairs etc.), and our former leader can fit in with our arrangements, too. It has put the ego into check and we are playing together again, strangely enough.

My advice would be to have more than one musical project - solo, maybe a duo as well as the band. Gives you a fallback position and hopefully you'll enjoy most of the activities most of the time, which will make tough times in a band more bearable until you can make a well-timed exit or things improve. If the band doesn't want to go your way, try your arrangements or material with another outfit. If the band want to treat you like a session sideman, act like one and find another outlet for your creativity.

I'm not suggesting you do not leave the band, just pick your moment if things don't get better and do it with the minimum of acrimony. You never know when you'll need one of the others in the future.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 11:50 AM

the time to leave a band of pirates is when they tip 'ee the black spot.
deposed, by the powers!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 12:03 PM

I just keep wondering-- did nosluap57 post this thread because s/he knew what s/he was going to do and wanted encouragement (permission) ..... or because s/he suspected he ought to stay and was looking for good reasons?

BOTH are good reasons to have posted-- I mean no criticism! But what was the underlying reasons s/he didn't just quit?

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 01:18 PM

I think everybody who has worked in bands of one sort or another has got a story about this issue--the longer you've been playing, the more stories you have--

jonm reminded me of a dance band that I once played with--I was the lowly rhythm guitar player, and always got blamed by the banjo player whenever he dropped a beat(which, to the irritation of the dancers, was quite often)--he was one of those people got where he was because of who, and not what, he knew, and soon moved on to a prestigious stage band--I attended one of his first gigs with them, and, as usual, he was dropping beats left and right, even in his featured solos--ever the tactful one, I went up afterwards and loudly said something to the effect that he couldn't blame me for his bad performance this time--

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: harryrages
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 03:35 PM

Watch out for subtle indications such as:

you keep getting sent to the wrong venue
the other band members huddle in a group whispering and glancing across at you
you come after the dog on the credits list
your dots are in Ab 4/4 and they are playing Eb 6/8

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 04:07 PM

More subtle indications such as:

The door to where you practice is locked and no one answers the doorbell at your pounding.

Everyone else has a mic but someone forgot yours.

All your hear is a dull roar from the monitor.

Everyone else is playing in a different key than you are playing.

Someone's cat did something rude in your instrument case.

All the seats are taken in the van and you get to ride strapped on top, and it's raining.

All the other members of the band head for the loo when it's your turn to lead a song.

After the gig is over the rest of the band takes off in the van without you...

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 08:57 PM

Just make sure you leave before it gets to this point..

Usenet message-ID

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 11:12 PM

You KNEW!! it was "TIME" long before you posted to this thread.....

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

sort of a Sorcha thing

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 10:01 AM

with my wife. they used to turn her microphone down to zero volume.

boy, did it piss them off when she got a recording contract.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Willie-O
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 10:22 AM

1. When the bad outweighs the good.

2. Same as any job, when you have given them a decent amount of notice and not left them in the lurch for gigs (or recording plans) that you had committed to. Be assured that people will talk about the circumstances of your departure, and your objective is to have them say "s/he did it in a classy, professional way" even if they are upset at you. Don't be the guy that walked off the stage in the first set, after someone gave you a nasty look....

It is interesting that one persons says a band "must be a dictatorship", and another says a band "must be a democracy". That's like saying a band must be anarchistic, or must all live in a commune together, or must all be the same religion. Dif'rent strokes...but decisions must be made somehow.

I say the only musts are:

1. there must be a process for decision-making which everyone understands and has bought into.
   
2. Everyone needs to understand that making great music is a matter of give-and-take. Even if you are the acknowledged leader and have the decision-making power, you have to be prepared to say "OK, we'll try it your way" sometimes, or you will soon be playing by yourself.
   
   

W-O

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Pauline L
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 02:14 AM

I left a band for a couple of reasons. The most important one was the size of the leader's ego. He was quite a narcissist and insulted me too often. After I left, a number of the others left for the same reasons. Now I'm starting to pull together another group, but one member is an ultra prima donna, just as insensitive as the leader of the other band.    I can't stand it. This is supposed to be fun.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 04:39 AM

my sympathies Pauline. However as Hyman Roth says in Godfather 2 - this is the business we are engaged in.
You don't let the assholes decide whether you are going to be a musician or not.
Another thing that you will find is that people come to work with you as supplicants. Before you know it - they (and their dog) know far more about the music business than you do.

It's human nature you are fighting against. Take the project as far as you can. Own as much of the hardware as you can. Be the businessman/front man as much as possible - that way when the miscreant goes forth to favour someone else with his genius - he doesn't take too much.

all the best

al

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 09:44 AM

w.l.d., that bigamy is looking better and better.

~S~

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 10:19 AM

I highly recommend duos for the weary of spirit. Less tricky to organise, less group dynamics, less potential for argument.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Pauline L
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 01:24 PM

In my case, it's not a band performing for money. It's supposed to be just for fun among friends. I'm the one in the group with the most experience in this kind of music by far. Most of the others have never even played it. These are classical musicians who have not jammed, arranged music, negotiated a melody, improvised harmony, put tunes together into sets, explored subtypes of this kind of music, etc. I think they need me more than I need them. It was probably not a good idea for me to get myself into this. I'm seeing things more clearly now. I'd be happier playing in a group with peers or with people I can both learn from and teach to.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 02:32 AM

Pauline what you are not saying speaks volumes.

These are not very good musicians. Believe you me, all musicians (classical in particular) love improvising and messing about with melodies and rythms.

A lot of the attitude probably comes from the fact that if they spend their time trying to cover bases and play crotchets, with no great success - they probably have turned to folk music as a bit of light relief. To their surprise - they find themselves in a very unforgiving element.

In folk clubs in England, there is a long tradition of being nice to crap players and performers - paricularly performers - we all had to start somewhere.. However folk music isn't like classical music - you don't take an exam - get six out of ten and they give you a certificate. You can either do it or you can't. And you can feel yourself playing crap, and before long the gloves come off and SOMEONE tells you - you're crap mate!

Doubtless your classically trained friends feel insecure. try making them a cocoa, telling them they're wonderful, great effort - but you've been taking notes........

all the best

al

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 02:34 AM

if all else fails, show them that last message!

all the best

al

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:02 PM

Band policies have been a subject of heavy discussion between core members of the band for a long, long time; I think I alluded to it before in this thread. Core members are myself, my husband, and banjo player Ed. Why do we consider ourselves the "core members"? Because we carry the frieght, in whatever form the freight lands on the band, every time. We're the ones who can and do "do it all;" maybe we're not all blessed with the greatest ability as musicians but we do demonstrate the greatest commitment to following through so that the people who hear us (singalongs) can have a good time, so the people who book us have a good experience, and so anyone else who wants to play with us has a good opportunity and materials and gigs to get the job done. We also have been the only songfinders-- myself, primarily, and the other two as time and resurces have permittted.

Things came to a head in the last year for a variety of reasons... The winter saw many discussions under the general heading, "What would we want it to be like if we were starting the band, today?"

As a result of these talks-- sometimes hilarious venting occasions-- we've been working with current members to help them move toward new policies, which are now as follows:

1. Although our most frequent "gig" is a weekly church service, the band existed before that service as a separate entity with a distinct focus. It is neither a church band nor made up exclusively of members of the parish where we most often play. Its role is not to cater to members, but to lead music for other people.

2. All members are expected to contribute to the effort required for the band to exist, each according to their talents.

3. New folks wanting to play with us are welcome at any rehearsal. From time to time visitors are asked to solo, when they clearly have the necessary performance experience. Weekly rehearsals are partly jams where improvisation is welcomed, and partly opportunities for members to teach others new material and arrangements to be played as taught. Time is a foctor in this area.

4. New folks can be asked to join us for a trial period, sitting in as side players and following existing arrangements. From time to time visitors are asked to solo, when they clearly have the necessary performance experience, as associate members.

5. New folks invited to join us for a trial period are expected to prepare and present instrumental communion music for the weekly worship service for which our band provides the music. A month's commitment to this is normative. It is assumed that the person will play solo; they are welcome to ask senior members to join in and, if so, they are expected to work with them on the material on their own time.

6. The next level of increased involvement is that the new person takes a place in the monthly or seasonal rotation of offertories, choosing these and taking the lead in presenting them. A month's commitment is normative; from time to time, a member may ask another member to fill in on short notice so it is a good idea to have one ready at all times. If the person needs help from a senior band member, they are expected to ask for it and to make appropriate arrangements.

7. Any sung offertory material needs to be given to the band as a copy for consideration for inclusion in later songbooks. Copies must be clear, camera-ready photocopies and a text file via disk or email of the lyric, including all copyright details. A source recording is helpful if available.

8. At the request or option of the band's leadership, offertories once presented may be transposed, rearranged, or text altered so that the material is appropriate for congregational singing. (Guidelines can be found in ECUSA canon law.)

9. The band's leadership owns sound systems and some related equipment which are available as needed. New members are expected to furnish their own mics or pickup and cords, to feed into the mix. Vocal mics must be Shure SM-58 or similar quality.

10. Members furnish own music stands and, if they require lights, stand-lights and extension cords.

11. Arrangment books are lent to members and may not be copied, distributed, or altered in any way without permission. New transpositions and arrangmeent are welcome but must be included in ALL copies of the books to maintain standard resources for all members.

12. Recordings of proposed new material are welcomed for band consideration.

13. Participation of associate and new members in gigs is at the discretion of the band;s core leaders. ANyoine not playing at a scheduled appearance is encourtaged to participate by helping at rehearsal and at the gig, including tech tasks, setup, breakdown, and audience management.

14. Rehearsals for gigs, as occasionally required, are essential to maintain membership. Every effort is made to ensure scheduling that will work for all.

15. Everyone shares the task of moving all instruments and equipment for gigs, and setting up/breakdown of all gear, each according to their physical abilities (not only according to ownership).

16. The "Fairfield Four Rules" for band comportment are in effect from rehearsal time through departure. A copy of Fairfield Four bass veteran Isaac Freemean's description is available from senior members.

~Susan

---

FAIRFIELD FOUR RULES (at 47:20)

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:31 PM

It's good to start out with a set of "rules" so that everybody knows what's expected of them. The problem, I think, is that many bands just sort of "form themselves" out of friends or session mates.   As they start working more and gigs are coming in each member naturally settles into what they are best at or inclined towards - and often that means one person ends up handling the business end of things, another the musical arranging, another the sound system, etc. Sometimes one person seems to get stuck with everything and the rest just seem to turn up, play their instruments or sing and pocket the cash, which they feel should be evenly divided.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: number 6
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:35 PM

"When the Music being played no longer makes you happy...that's a crunch point."

Alba's statement above just about sums it up. The usual clash of egos's which is a trait in a lot of musicians/artists is one impact of the 'happy' aspect.

The direction of one's artistic evolvment also is an indicator of when to leave the band. Be honest with yourself. When you know your aren't 'clicking' with the band due to what you want to do artistically due to changes in your own vision ... leave.

sIx

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,ridge plucker
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 10:32 PM

Seems to me that if you are not having a good time that is when you need to say enough is enough. If you are not having a good time it will show in your playing. Music is suppose to refreshs the soul, clears the mind, and brings joy to your life. Some people like to put a long list of rules to a band to me that just kills the joy before you even get your instrument out of the case. Why bother their main interest is not the band just having some kind of control or power over the other members. It is my experience that these are the people that have little actual musical talent so they make up for it by being bossy fun suckers. I can see if it is a band that is getting payed and the members are doing it for a living then more rules come into play and are required. If it is a church band or similar then it should be more loosely structured where any interested members feel like they can be apart of it. I do not know how you could exclude a member of the church from the church band that wanted to play. Would you ask a member not to sing hymns? I would hope not. Loosen up anyone up for a little I, IV, V acoustic blues.....

Have a good one,
Pete

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 10:37 PM

Pete, ours is NOT a church band. We just happen to play there.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,ridge plucker
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 11:00 PM

Susan

As long as you are playing in the church for church services and not charging people to see you, you are a church band. What you do outside is your own business.

Pete

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 08:22 AM

Susan-

An excellent set of rules based on long experience.

Errrr, is there a procedure for asking a member to leave? I realize pospective members have to survive a trial period but what do you do if a "core member" is no longer functioning well?

Our group is legally incorporated and we can dismiss a member of our "board" by majority vote. Usually they leave on their own volition but everyone knows that is possibe.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 09:13 AM

Thanks, Charley. It's never happened to us-- I am not sure how we would handle it. We've either been lucky or we've had sound judgment in members-- or both!

I'm not going to argue with ridge plucker-- as it happens, I do actually know what I am doing. Our policies are our policies, and we've had the benefit of lots of good advice as well as our own experience to draw upon.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 03:24 PM

We aren't a church band? I'm confused.


Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 03:57 PM

The Good News-Goodtime Band is an independent, community-based band with members from a variety of churches and from outside the church community as well. There are a couple of people who don't play in church on a regular basis who DO play at other settings and with whom the core members share a repertoire and a long, varied perfomance history at community functions.

The band existed long before the Saturday night service did. The band did not form out of the church membership overall or the Saturday congregation in particular. In the main, most expenses of the band are not paid by the church or paid as part of anyone's pledge to the church. The church also does not own the sound equipment.

This has been reflected in our band website for several years, in the church website, and in the gigs the band plays beyond the church setting, some of which include a veriety of secular music.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 03:59 PM

1. Although our most frequent "gig" is a weekly church service, the band existed before that service as a separate entity with a distinct focus. It is neither a church band nor made up exclusively of members of the parish where we most often play. Its role is not to cater to members, but to lead music for other people.

The Good News-Goodtime Band is an independent, community-based band with members from a variety of churches and from outside the church community as well. There are a couple of people who don't play in church on a regular basis who DO play at other settings and with whom the core members share a repertoire and a long, varied perfomance history at community functions.

The band existed long before the Saturday night service did. The band did not form out of the church membership overall or the Saturday congregation in particular. In the main, most expenses of the band are not paid by the church or paid as part of anyone's pledge to the church. The church also does not own the sound equipment.

This has been reflected in our band website for several years, in the church website, and in the gigs the band plays beyond the church setting, some of which include a veriety of secular music.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 04:20 PM

Oh.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 04:25 PM

Interesting.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,ridge plucker
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 06:40 PM

Susan,

I was not arguing with you I just do not understand how it is you get to tell a member of a church they are not allowed to play music or sing in a church that they are a member of. I have heard from other members of this church besides my wife that it would be nice if the "band" could play something they could sing to. Maybe you would benefit from some of the members playing with you guys so they enjoy the show more so to speak and not cringe so much.

So what would happen if the members of the church wanted to form a band of their own? Would this not be allowed.   

Pete

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: nosluap57
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 09:59 PM

Thank you to all who have provided me with some insightful advice.

The band I spoke of is a "church" band. All members are volunteers, except for the band leader.

I have decided to leave, for various rasons, after one final gig. We are playing a CD release show on 22 April, at the Fine Line, in Minneapolis. That's a pretty significant venue, so I feel that's a good way for me to leave with all the good memories I'm sure that show will produce.

The CD is avilable on iTunes. Search for "Spirit Garage Bands", then click on "Faith, Love, & Rock and Roll". Three bands on the CD. I'm the acoustic guitar for Identity Crisis.

Peace to all!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Roughyed
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 07:42 AM

Very interesting thread. Every band has it's own dynamics and every member takes a role within it. Sometimes those dynamics lead to one or more people leaving or the band disintegrating. But every band also has it's own parabola and every member it's own parabola within it.

All bands finish sometime. The important thing is to be as reasonable as possible when leaving, even if other members aren't. That way your conscience is clear and even if there is bad feeling at the time you stand the chance of making it up later when people have a bit of perspective.

Life's too short to stay where you don't want to be, to lose friends unnecessarily and to harbour grudges. I've played with loads of people over the years and they're all friends that share something special with me - even if it's only the memory of how terrible we were!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 09:59 AM

Pete, I'd be thrilled if a church band formed-- and a long post I wrote about this yesterday got lost when my cable connection went south. We had the start of a second unit until the person who I guess would have become the "founding member"-- a strong singer with his own repertoire-- left the parish over other issues and soon was transferred to another part of the country by his company.

We don't tell anyone they can't play-- we make a distinction between people who are ready to play for the people and people who need to bring their skills and confidence up to the level where they actually can play. We've been more than generous with our time in helping people play, but at 7PM the handholding has to stop and the players need to be oriented to the people, not to their own fears.

We do welcome people to sit in with us at rehearsal time, as I described below. Our approach provides for a gentle start-up for a new member, not exclusion.

As far as the music choices, all band members participate in choosing music, and we have ecelectic interests-- as does the congregation. Our new approach will provide for even more variety in type and source of music-- The offertories members provide (those which can be sung congregationally) will be included in upcoming songbooks. The work of doing the songbooks will be more equitably shared as well, so that there will be more than two to choose from.

The older song book has mostly nursing home favorites most people know. The newer one we've used for Lent has a lot more non-traditional music; some of the people have found the songs harder to sing but many of the songs have been well received. They ALL have been topical for the Lenten readings, a wekaness of the older songbook. Some of the least-traditional pieces have been the best-received, and we never know which are going to go over well until we intrduce them. If they prove unsingable, we don't usually repeat them in that setting.

As an example of equitable songbook preperation-- someone whose approach to music is very note-dependent asked if the next songbook will include notes. I replied that they can include notes for some of the published songs--- if someone will take on that part of the task of making the book. It's a huge task. I already spend fulltime hours doing the books as they have been. Unpaid. It's been uphill work even having folks share the job of reviewing possible songs.


So-- back to your question-- would I love a church band to form, to attempt to meet all these diverse needs? You bet I would. There are lots of other opportunities our band could be pursuing if I put my time in doing the booking, instead of making songbooks. When can they start?   Are they really prepared to give up every Saturday night a year? Do they have a singer who can put a song across in place of a full choir? I'll tell you-- no one like that has been identified in our parish.

But-- will I be expected to fill in when this new church band can't appear? Lend my sound equipment? I think our band will be pretty busy.

Pete, your post is kind of ambiguous in oe regard-- are you saying your wife is actually a member of the parish I play at? If that is the case, have you participated yourself? Are you sure you're getting the whole story? Would you like to sit in and see for yourself?

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: MMario
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:07 AM

?? Virtually all the music The Good TImes Band plays at services is "sing along" - unless things have changed radically since I've been there.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:11 AM

Mmario, we've added some stuff the last few weeks I had no trouble singing along with the first time I heard it, just like anything we've ever tried on a Saturday-- but the source is black gospel or stuff that originated with black gospel and was adpated by another "white" group from whom I learned the song. I don't know if that has anything to do with how some people have reacted, but I do know several people have really enjoyed that stuff, too.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: MMario
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:39 AM

Okay - I thought possibly you'd shifted over to instrumentals or something...participation and enthusiasm among the congregation have always seemed pretty good when I've visited.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 11:13 AM

What people find "singable" is always an issue in any church setting, Mmario. A lot of Sunday AM musicians say that ANY new song (new to the people) takes several repeats to become part of the music the people find singable. The choir will introduce a new piece as an offertory, then repeat it as a congregational piece a few weeks later, and hope it sticks the third time around. Last night at evensong, in another parish, a well-known text was new to music I had never heard. There was not much singing going on, and no choir leading. Finally one stroing but pretty unattractive voice took it up and we all followed; bt the third verse most of us had most of the tune but then there was no fourth verse.

At other churches using praise music it's the same thing. No notes most of the time, because the note books are very expensvicee, so the words are usually put up on an overhead projector or there's a words-only book. A congregation develops a body of songs they are comfortable with, everyoine gets very excited, then it either gets stale with songs always-repeated or else the band intorudces now songs and the people have as much trouble going into new material as any Sunday AM tradtional-songs congregation. In any event, if you are a newcomer to any congregation, the body of music that congregation uses is going to seem strange for a long while. Our Sat. night folks now include an extended family of 6 former Baptists. Naturally, they don't know the same songs we do. They push me to look into Baptist hymnody for new material, and when they first started coming I made a serious effort to find songs they might know-- but then the rest of the folks didn;t know THOSE songs.

Now, since it began, our Saturday group have broken all those precedents about "new music is not singable". They've been notable for being excited about new, rare material, and that's kept it frsh for everyone.

But in church life as anywhere else, you can't please everyone and some people tend to be more positive in their approach to saying what they think, and some people tend to be more negative in their manner. It's all information-- you try not to take criticism personally and to hear the infromation instead. You do the best you can, to present material you hope will be useful to people's spirituality, but if they don't TELL you what is working, all you can go by is the atmosphere after the service ends. I sure haven't seen anyone cringing their way in, or out-- although a little personal feedback has been positively offered on a regular basis by several folks, and this has provided great guidance to us over the years. One lady in particular has surprised me over and over; she seems like a very conservative, traditional lady, but she's been coming regularly since we started many years ago and she has liked it all! I told her, one night, that I look her way often to see if a new song is pushing the envelope to much-- if SHE doesn't approve, I know I've gone too far. She was very energetic in assuring me that she has liked it ALL and I shouldn't worry. (Of course she's right that a worried mind is not a good approach in church!)

I'm very grateful our band has the process it does. We always-- no matter which of us has picked the music for the night-- bring more pieces than will be needed. We run through them in rehearsal. The band reaches a consensus on which ones will work best, before the night's final choices are made. We are not limited, as a Sunday AM choir is, to the hymns listed in a bulletin; we announce them as we go.

We also have the option of adjusting the choices as the service unfolds; when we play out of an existing songbook, sometimes the choices change on the fly. I've had one song we were planning for a closing, for instance, and then I might see that the opener didn;t go well and I might pass a note along the line to the band that I'm chaging the closing because it's similar to the opening. Or we might make a change on the fly when a person who has made a request several weeks back has not been there the week we did their request-- they'll come in after the service starts and we go to their request instead of doing the planned material.

Of course, it's helpful to have musicians who are capable of that degree of flexibility. It would be a lot to expect of a new player.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 02:18 PM

Susan,

    Yes, Pete's wife is a member of your congregation, that would be me. Since the position is volunteer, you have the same option as the rest of us.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 02:33 PM

Michelle,

Who's in the new church band? When will they start?

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 06:02 PM

Susan,

   I didn't bring up that bit so perhaps you have addressed it to the wrong person.

This part is about me and I'm not shy about it. You wrote: As an example of equitable songbook preperation-- someone whose approach to music is very note-dependent asked if the next songbook will include notes. I replied that they can include notes for some of the published songs--- if someone will take on that part of the task of making the book. It's a huge task. I already spend fulltime hours doing the books as they have been. Unpaid. It's been uphill work even having folks share the job of reviewing possible songs.

I am the person who plays by notes. That's the way it is. I have also played in the church band or whatever it is. Because the music is written with only the chord note above the words, I am unable to do very much. I could add much more if I had notes. I told you I would look up some of it and I have. The trouble is this. I never know what key is going to be your pick of the night so that means learning several versions of the same song that we might or might not do. If we, as a group, practiced something in advance of the night of the song and had a key picked out, I could prepare something. I know that doesn't work for you so there's no need to go into that. I have also done everything you asked of me regarding the band with the exception of last week in regards to listening to music to help pick out songs. Why did I say no? Because we've been down this road before and the things I pick out, you never seem to like or need...we aren't on the same wavelength at all...why waste both of our time and heap frustration on the pile? It makes no sense. You later asked me to type up the lyrics, I told you what I could handle given my current schedule and followed through.

Yes, the songbooks are a lot of work and I don't think anyone has argued that point. I don't think it's necessarily fair to say that each volunteer has the same amount time or commitment to gospel music that you do. For myself, I enjoy the music, I enjoy playing, I wish I had more time for both but the reality is, I don't have it to give. I'm not being obstinate or ornery are requiring any kind of handholding...it's just how my life is right now and you know that.

I'm not trying to make anyone look bad or anything of the sort...and you are right...there is always more to the story.

As for the new band thing, either you are referring to what Ridge Plucker had to say or you have decided to exercise your freedom of choice...that's up to you.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 07:27 PM

Susan, you also posted this:

Pete, your post is kind of ambiguous in oe regard-- are you saying your wife is actually a member of the parish I play at? If that is the case, have you participated yourself? Are you sure you're getting the whole story? Would you like to sit in and see for yourself?

As I stated above, yes, his wife, me, is a member of the parish which you play at. I don't mean to speak for my husband but I do know the answers to these questions.

Yes, he has attended the Saturday night services on occassion. If you would prefer a more detailed answer as to why he is not coming more frequently, well, I can answer that too...but I'll leave that to him...if he wants to share that you or not.

Is he getting the whole story? YES. He hears things from me, other family members, friends and has seen things for himself. Are you insinuating that I am lying to my husband? I didn't think so. *cough*

Would he like to sit in? I'm thinking that if he wanted to sit in you'd have seen more of him.

I'll be anxious to see if he chooses to add anything more.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 07:50 PM

Michelle, you seem to assume all that I've written is about you. It's not. There have been a number of people who played with us for awhile-- some in church and some in other settings-- from whom we learned some hard lessons. The policies reflect all of that.

Let's move on.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 07:55 PM

Susan,

   II'm not assuming that everything you've written is about me, I know that there have been many people who played and have moved on....but that particular part is about me, it happened this week. If you weren't referring to me, then it's something that is a reoccuring problem.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 08:27 PM

Michelle, no, you are not the only person who has wished that notes were always available, and who neither chose to do that part of the job nor sought a volunteer to do it for them. The answer has always been the same. So far, no takers on doing the notes. I do have MIDIs printed for most of the the songs in the next book, BTW, but again there's no guarantee all the keys will be covered.... I don't know what key I'll be able to sing in in several months. And the job of matching text to notes is a further complication.

You're also not the only person who has been invited to suggest music for the band. One person took a set of 8 tapes and I got them back 2 years later-- long after I'd forgotten how any of them even sounded and after my tape player died and I changed to all-CD storage. Another person took several weeks one summer to listen through my fat binders full of CDs-- his idea. He said he enjoyed them a lot-- but he never made notes on what he liked and he could not even recall which ones he had listened to. Another person took another set of tapes once, and although he had an hour's drive each day to work, and back, he never went through them. He did contribute other songs, though. All hand-written and hard to read, harder to copy cleanly-- assumed I'd type. (And I'm a very poor typist.)

As far as not knowing what key we will be in, you're right-- no, we often don't know that. It kind of goes along with the music being sung by different people and with different vocal situations at different times. The only vocalists we've ever had available also talk all day, and that is really hard on a voice. Even Tom sometimes had no idea what key he wanted a piece in on a given night, even on songs he'd brought to the group. (Eventually he began to learn to do his own transposing.)

The realities of playing week in and week out, and singing whether one has a voice or not, are seldom considered when people set out on a job like this. It's sure taught me a lot-- it's taught me that I have to be realistic and that I have to make my limitations clear or drown in people's desires for what I will do for them.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 09:46 PM

That tells me that having notes would be useful. I do have several of the songs from the greenbook....I think....printed out here...but since the only rehearsals are only right before the service, there is little chance to catch the feel of how you folks sing it, keys aside. I'm not a great player, I need time for that kind of thing. Even if we practiced the song a week or two ahead...that would give me (or whoever else) time to work out the bugs (rhythms, runs, skipped over parts, etc) in the song so there stood some kind of chance of it sounding decent from a note playing stance. Being that I have spent time both in the pew and in front of the people, I can also tell you that folks have repeatedly said that it would be nice if they had notes to sing by. I don't think it's strictly a player issue. Whatever. It's your group. You are the leader...so I guess if this has been a problem in the past, is a problem now, then it will be in the future....and that really is just a shame.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:17 PM

Michelle,

Praise-music churches don't distrubute notes, either, BTW, as I posted earlier. They don't even provide a words-only book in most cases.

Now, it's a funny thing, but at the nursing homes where we use songsheets with words only, we've never had anyt trouble about notes. I guess they just know a lot of songs.

I can't even begin to count the number of commercially printed songbooks we reviewed in the early years, looking for something that would work and that the parish might be able to afford. You have a copy of one of them now-- don't you just love the tiny print and the limited number of songs?

I think as far as congregational input, we'll go ahead and do a survey. They really should be talking to us about this, instead of circulating upset behind our backs, don't you think? There is Biblical instruction on how to resolve upsets that isn't being followed-- and we are not mind-readers. I do hope you will encourage people to talk to us, for themselves, about any concerns they have. It's too bad you have gotten caught up in it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 11:13 PM

Susan,

   I think that's a fine idea. I'd be asking things like how many of you would find notes useful in singing the music? Another thing I'd be curious to find out, and think you would be surprised, at how many folks have trouble understanding the spoken page number...I don't know what it is about that mic, but it comes out garbled. I have talked to Hardi about this a few times but since nothing changed, I thought he didn't think it was an issue. Watch sometime at all the folks talking to each other after the page number is read...they are asking..what page did she say?

   I'm not caught up in anything that I haven't asked about before. As far as upset...I can't speak for anyone but me. And yes, there is a process, I've tried that route before...hopefully others will meet with better results.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 11:29 PM

It would be wonderful if the Sunday AM folks could tolerate our putting the amps up on amp stands, wouldn't it? We used to actually have to put them away every week. Sure wish when they bought an expensive sound system for the parish, they'd have realized we neeeded sound, too, and that a speaking sound sytem is different from a music one.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:48 AM

It sounds better when you sing as you aren't so close to the mic. When FG speaks into the other mic, it is more understandable.

More than enough said from me on this thread.

To the orginal poster, thanks for the thread, it gives me some serious pause for thought.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,bandleader
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:55 AM

just go and give them some peace if you feel like you do you can't be giving your all to the band.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:33 AM

I tried to do that earlier because I can't commit the way I should and was told to hang on to the music as they expect and want me to come back.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:15 AM

Michelle,

I think it is more accurate to say that you offered to return the material awhile back because you had a busy time coming up with your student teaching, and that you were told then that although some band changes were taking place as a result of FG's taking over while I took a break, we welcomed your participation any time you could join in.

You were told then about the offertories, eventually offered one one weekend, and then canceled the offer about 24 hours later because you and your fiddle were not getting along. No one complained when this occurred, although it did mean some last-minute scrambling for the person who had originally been scheduled for that week's offertory.

You recently had an opportunity to the extent and nature of the changes that had been in the works, and offered a fresh start to contemplate if and when you resumed playing your fiddle. All this verbiage has ensued now that you know what will be expected if you should find you wish to return.

Of course we hope you will return, and as the policy states we want existing members to move toward the new approach-- not that people who can't meet the desired commitment are being asked to leave. No one has asked you to leave-- quite the opposite, I have been proactive in making every effort I can think of to find a way you can keep some involvement that works for you. As a matter of fact, I've reviewed the last severeal years' emails about this matter, and I see a longstanding cycle where idea after idea has been shot down.

So it has become clear to me that for whatever reason, this isn't working for you at this time. If that is not the case-- the remedy is simple. Just let us know when to expect you to return to involvement, plan on having some rehearsal time before you are on the spot to "perform," work on some simple, melodic communion music of your choosing from whatever source you wish to use, and THEN see if it works for you. I'll even be happy to give you a copy of some of the source songs we're working from, and arrangements for the new material whether you're playing with us or not, if that would be helpful in thinking about how the fiddle might be useful as a side part if you want to work on those skills.

As I have said now several times-- and I think clearly and patiently-- the approach is not intended to exclude anyone, but simply a structure to provide a way people can participate to the extent of their abilities.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:30 AM

It sounds better when you sing as you aren't so close to the mic. When FG speaks into the other mic, it is more understandable.

I often "eat the mic" when I sing-- singing with my lips actually touching it. The difference is not the microphones or the closeness to them. It's mostly Hardiman's strong carryng voice even away from the amp, from the center aisle, unobstructed by pews. (My speaking voice is not nearly as strong as my singing voice.) And it's the placement of the amps-- we are on two different amps and without amp stands, speech does not cross the pew barriers well. The amps are aimed, also, to eliminate feedback. Since you have not worked with sound systems (not needing one for the fiddle), you would not know this.

Some people who sit elsewhwere in the church hear me just fine, BTW. We do the best we can within the limitations we've been given to work with.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 01:51 PM

And it's all done for the greater glory of God.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:33 PM

Yes, that too.

Perhaps, Peace, you might care to suggest a prayer we can print to insert into each of our songbooks, for the ministry of us all. (We used to have one in the first iteration of the band's playing at the church.) The Sunday AM folks involved in the sanctuary group always pray together before they embark on the morning's services. I don't think of myself as our band's spiritual advisor... but the guy who started us all off and still pitches in to help with everything, despite many personal adversities, is the most unfailingly positive person I know, and I bet he would be very honored to be appointed our chaplain.

I hear that prayer thing actually works. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:48 PM

Susan,

    When I joined the band, the first thing you told me is that the greensong book comes back when you leave. I offered it back to you and you told me to keep it as you expected me to come back at some point. There are some very interesting shades of the truth going on here. I also have emails. All of them.

If you'd like to share more about me in this forum, please feel free but at least be honest about it and take some responsibility for your part in this mess.

   Not all of what you just posted is accurate. I'd go on about it, but what's the point? You will throw it in my lap anyway. Go ahead. I'm getting used to it. According to you, nothing is ever your fault, it's always mine. *shrug*

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 10:42 PM

When is it time to leave a thread?

Have yourself a time, Michelle. I'm done playing defense whenever you decide you are being victimized again. No one else who has played has had any trouble getting along. The door is open. It's up to you what action to take.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,lilyfestre's husband
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 11:39 PM

Susan,

I have been quite about you treating my wife like dirt these past years because she got some enjoyment out of playing in your band (lord only knows how with all hoops you make people jump through). There is no open door becuase I will not let you take advantage of her no more. You are a user plain and simple. Too lazy to do any of the work yourself so you have to get others to do it for you. So you can type up your own crap from now on. So go ahead be nasty to her so I can show you just how nasty I can be.



Pissed off husband

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 01:52 AM

Susan,

In case you haven't noticed, I am not interested in you and your manipulations. It's interesting to hear that you have been "playing defense." I think the ONLY time I ever really sought out any kind of assistance was when Veronica didn't return. Silly me. I thought you were being a caring member of the church parish but now I know better...you were playing defense. Well, I guess I learn something new every single day. Losing Veronica in the manner that we did and how much I grieved for that child is not a case of anyone crying victim...it's an example of a human being in the deepest kind of pain there is.

Susan, I know you and I don't see eye to eye on many things, but that's pretty low. I don't always like you but I did trust you. Never, ever again. Score two points for you.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:22 AM

Outsiders view.
There seem to be two problems

1) the songs haven't got notation.
2) the newer songs aren't as popular.

easy solutions to both problems.
1) Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
This is a job for a very specific skill. A good transcriber could do half a dozen hymn tunes in hour. Pay him out of church funds. Your local musicians union should know someone who is good and fast.
End of prob.

2) Performing a song is also a very specific skill. To influence an audience to enjoy it, the front people have to know it back to front and back again. they have to know clever little bits and harmonies that they enjoy, to add those flourishes that an audience will get off on. That goes for ANY kind of music.
Take ONE new song that you can agree on. That is enough for one or even two months. Taking a whole book full at once is just plain ridiculous.

stop getting pissed off with each other. its in the nature of things that band members blame each other when things go wrong.

it does no good. think about what your ambitions and hopes were when you started with this band - don't give up on your dreams too easily.

al

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,MadDwg
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:05 PM

Hey WYSIWYG: I was once in a band that recorded and released an album.
We were quite good! Unfortunately, one of the members was strapped for cash and felt set upon to "donate" his vehicle along with everyone else's to transport the band and its gear. So, he decided to request payment by the mile as reimbursement. Unfortunately, those of us who drove did so as well, using "government" stats as the guideline. Therefore, most of the gig pay went to transport. Of the 5, I was the only one who had a "real" 9 to 5 5 day a week job. Two members were part time guitar and mandoling teachers and one even was taking mandolin lessons from a local mandolin virtuoso of international fame, so he could not make ends meet. When it was decided that our success was such that we could buy a used Greyhound bus and outfit it ourselves, with the help of a financnial backer, two members decided that was that, including the one who started the whole reimbursment deal. The decision to quit was made solely on financial reasons as well as emotional reasons. Rules are great! Policies are great! Just when the policy is initially made, write it down and agre to it and NEVER WAIVER!!! We NEVER agreed to the reimbursment plan, we just greedily did it!

When is it time to leave? When unrealitic demands are made of the group, such as threatening its rinancial health. IF the group is together for th fun of it, than leave when you aren't having anymore fun. If you can't exist with an "all for one and one for all" attitude and can't remember there is no "I" in "TEAM", then leave. No amount of clerical intervnetion is going to change anything. And feelings have toenter into it. Afterall, we areonly human and our feelings are one of the reasons were are humn!

BTW, Susan, W L D's proposal of bigamy sounds like it might be fun, but one heck of a swim!

MadDawg

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: hesperis
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 12:09 PM

I was invited to join a band by the bandleader. All the guys are very dedicated, awesome people,and quite probably better musicians than I am. (I've never had to write songs with other people before and my memory is shit right now because of life issues so once a riff is played I can't remember it afterwards especially when someone else is noodling.)

However, the rest of the band wants a more democratic process and a slightly different sound than the bandleader does. Really not sure how to handle moving towards a democratic base without hurting the guy's feelings.

Leaving is not an option. I need to learn what I can and they need to get used to playing with a singer who isn't familiar to them. :)