BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:15 AM

According to the weekly newspaper Socialist Worker one of the Lebanese prisoners Hezbollah want released from an Israeli prison is Samir Qantar.His family say that he was arrested by the Israelis at the age of 16 in 1979 and has been held in prison ever since.According to the family he joined the Lebanese Resistance only when his country was invaded by Israel.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:11 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 08:32 AM

The following extract is from Noam Chomsky's book The Fatal Triangle

               ZIONISM RULES BUT ITS NOT OK
"The religious settlers in the West Bank operating freely with army support, take pride in creating a pogrom like atmosphere among the arabs , who must be trained not to "raise their heads" , this being the only way to treat arabs, who "adore power" and will live in peace with the Jews only when "we show him that we are strong". How?
"We enter a village shoot a bit at windows ,warn the villagers and return to the settlement. We don't kidnap people ,but it can happen that we catch a boy who has been throwing stones ,take him back with us ,beat him a bit and give him over to the army to finish the job."
The same West Bank settler also explains how official investigators act to protect Jews who shoot to kill[including firing at children]...

The above extract is from Noam Chomsky's book THE FATEFUL TRIANGLE,
lONDON 1983

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:57 AM

The Palestine Solidarity Campaign has been campaigning for several years to halt the export of lethal British military equipment to Israel on the grounds that it is being used to attack Palestinian civilians on the illegally occupied West Bank.

The equipment exported by British arms companies includes components for Apache helicopters, Merkova tanks, F16 warplanes and converted armoured personnel carries .

Campaigners believe that the sale of this equipment is an outrage at a time when hundreds of civilians in Gaza,the West Bank and the Lebanon are being attacked by air,land and sea forces.

The Palestine Solidarity Campaign website contains a great deal of information about events in Palestine/Israelincluding the terrible suffering of those wounded by shrapnel from Israeli shellfire.
Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:45 AM

Twelve Lebanese were killed by Israeli missiles today at the Lebanese town of Marwahin in the south of Lebanon.They were slaughtered in two cars while trying to flee the bombing.
At the town of Jbal al Botm near Tyre nine members of two families ,including three children,were injured when a bomb destroyed the house they were sheltering in.
Meanwhile in Gaza the Israeli military has demolished or partly destroyed 20 houses and bulldozed 30 acres of farmland and olive groves.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:07 AM

PDQ
You should be more careful about choosing Mark Twain as your eyewitness in Palestine in the 1860s.You claim that Palestine ,then ruled by the Ottoman Empire was a pretty backward land.

Of course the USA back then was a land built on the sweat and slavery of black people and the ethnic slaughter of the native Americans.

Palestine was a land of uneven development .The Palestinians had a growing agricultural economy with mass exports of fruit to Europe.

What is interesting about your quote is that the various nationalities and religious groups did live for quite lengthy periods in some peace and security ...but this was before Zionism was exported into the land .
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:53 AM

You may say anything you wish. But as I have made not statements regarding whether I approve Israel's actions or not, I don't think you can safely say it. I merely pointed out the flaws in some of the pro Palestinean arguments.

You do support them. If you didn't, you wouldn't have felt the need to point out what you consider to be the flaws in what you call "pro Palestinian arguments" and you wouldn't be making those particular arguments. And you wouldn't frame it in terms like "pro Palestinian". That is the language of "anti Palestinians".

What sophistry--a fancy word for bullshit--is here at Mudcat, especially by the Palestinean apologists!
"Hezbullah is not the government of Lebananon"...Hezbullah comprises a part of the Lebanese government.

What sophistry yourself. The Lebanese government is faced with a choice between allowing Hezbullah to have a part in its government or face the dissolution of its country into another bloody sectarian war. The government of Lebanon is not responsible for the actions of Hezbullah, and it is not in a position to do much about their actions without risking such an outcome. The government of Lebanon has asked both the government of Israel and the UN to help them resolve this crisis. So far, Israel is not interested in helping them do this.

"The militant arm of Hamas is not the Palestinean government"...it is Hamas and Hamas is the current government of Palestinean Gaza.

If Israel punishes the Palestinian civilians for the actions of the militant arm of Hamas, even if Hamas is the current government of Palestinian Gaza, they are using exactly the same logic that Palestinians who bomb Israeli civilians are using to justify their actions... the logic being that either Palestinian or Israeli civilians should be punished for the actions of their governments. And that logic is the logic of collective punishment, a favorite tactic of the Nazis.

Israelis have not retaliated againt Gaza and Lebanon because a couple of soldiers have been killed or captured.

Yes they have.

That was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back for months of rocket attacks from Gaza and Lebanon and the occasional murderous suicide bombings.

Months of rocket attacks from Lebanon?

Israel was conducting rocket attacks against Gaza, killing many civilians there, even when Hamas was conducting a year long unilateral ceasefire. Anyone who believes that Israelis are the only people who are entitled to say enough is enough is a bigot, a racist, and a supremacist.

While the Palestinean apologists profess to have no animus against Israelis, per se, any solution they see as equitable would, in fact, have the same result as physically destroying Israel.

This is not true.

I have more respect for those who are honest enough to espouse outright destruction; I disagree with that of course.

More sophistry. You are implying that those who support human rights for Palestinians, by virtue of this non-sequitur of yours "any solution they see as equitable would, in fact, have the same result as physically destroying Israel", are covertly supporting Israel's outright destruction.

And lastly you bring in that boogey man term Nazi to tar me with. I don't think so Carol!

Oh, but I do think so, John. Good night yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:09 AM

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1687346.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 01:07 AM

You may say anything you wish. But as I have made not statements regarding whether I approve Israel's actions or not, I don't think you can safely say it. I merely pointed out the flaws in some of the pro Palestinean arguments. You use loaded terms like 'collective punishment' and 'denial of basic freedoms for Palestineans' and impute those to me and others. I don't accept those games. And lastly you bring in that boogey man term Nazi to tar me with. I don't think so Carol! Good night.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:51 AM

Ad hominem attacks will get you nowhere, John.

Ok, I looked it up.

So by the definition I found in the dictionary, I can safely say that you are an apologist for apartheid in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and an apologist for collective punishment (a favorite tactic of the Nazis), and for denying the Palestinians' right to exist and to have the same basic freedoms and human rights that Israelis and people in Western countries enjoy, and for the government of Israel denying its neighbors the right to defend their sovereignty and borders.

When you defend the policies and practices of the government of Israel, this is what you are defending.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:23 AM

CarolC-You apparently do not understand the definition of 'apologist'. Suggest you get a good dictionary. I use the American Heritage College Dictionary; it's quite good. Hint: to be an apologist does not mean to apologize.
BTW, your examples of my telling you what you think are as weak as your vocabulary. Your ability to cut and paste is wonderous, your ability to analyze leaves much to be desired.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:05 AM

Yes you did, John, here...

What sophistry--a fancy word for bullshit--is here at Mudcat, especially by the Palestinean apologists!

...and here...

While the Palestinean apologists profess to have no animus against Israelis, per se, any solution they see as equitable would, in fact, have the same result as physically destroying Israel

We're not apologizing for anyone. We are standing up for human rights.

And you're wrong that the solution that I see as equitable would have the same result as physically destroying Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:01 AM

CarolC-I have never told you or anyone else what you (they) think...I'll leave that tactic to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:50 PM

Yes, Peace, it has, but I'm not defending the practice, John is.

Tell you what, John, I won't tell you what you think and you won't tell people who defend human rights for Palestinians what we think. Deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:20 PM

CarolC-Don't tell me what I think, probably or otherwise. I said exactly what I meant to say. No more, no less. You are the one who plays word games.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:16 PM

Carol, it's been a tactic of the terrorist groups who attack Israel, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:13 PM

You think only Israelis are subject to having straws break their camel's backs, John? Or that they are the only ones who are entitled to have any rights at all? (Clearaly you do). You probably consider the Israelis to be the only human beings currently living in the Middle East.

And you are also obviously one who supports the use of collective punishment, a favorite tactic of the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:05 PM

What sophistry--a fancy word for bullshit--is here at Mudcat, especially by the Palestinean apologists!
"Hezbullah is not the government of Lebananon"...Hezbullah comprises a part of the Lebanese government.
"The militant arm of Hamas is not the Palestinean government"...it is Hamas and Hamas is the current government of Palestinean Gaza.
Israelis have not retaliated againt Gaza and Lebanon because a couple of soldiers have been killed or captured. That was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back for months of rocket attacks from Gaza and Lebanon and the occasional murderous suicide bombings.
While the Palestinean apologists profess to have no animus against Israelis, per se, any solution they see as equitable would, in fact, have the same result as physically destroying Israel. I have more respect for those who are honest enough to espouse outright destruction; I disagree with that of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 10:59 PM

first...Israel was gradually reducing its borders the last 10 years, as I understood it. They withdrew from Lebanon, from Gaza, destroyed settlements (with great complaints from settlers)...What am I missing here?

You clearly know very little about the nature and the scope of the occupation, Bill. Israel withdrew from Gaza, but kept a stranglehold on Gaza's borders, air space, and shores, and in the process, on Gaza's economic viability. It has been bombing civilians in Gaza on a quite regular basis, for many years. It did not stop these bombings of civilians after it withdrew from Gaza.

Israel withdrew from Gaza but it is still occupying the West Bank, and it will not end the occupation there even after it dismantles a few, very small, token settlements there. It will hold on to the largest and the most intrusive aparthied settlements there, as well as confiscating for its own use, the vast majority of the West Bank's water resources.

The result of this will be that the Palestinians of the West Bank will not be able to move freely within the West Bank, but they will be held like prisoners in tiny bantustans (some people call them ghettoes), separated one from another, and separated from their orchards, fields, and their livelihoods, and with very little access to water, subjected to arbitrary checkpoints within the West Bank, subjected to being at best, humiliated and at worst, killed at the whim of Israeli soldiers (this is documented by members and former members of the IDF), and denied all of the basic human rights that we in the US say we, as a country, stand for.

Israel has not slowed down the process of disposessing many thousands of Palestinians from their homes (buldozing them into dust), but has sped up the process instead, and has sped up the process of building new settlements and increasing the size of already existing ones.

The Palestinians will continue to live with no legal protections, no civil rights, no human rights... no rights whatever. If you think anyone has a right to do this to an entire civilian population consisting of more than a million people, then you are a bigot and a racist as well.

second...that sentence sounds like a propaganda message written by a Palestinian. I have heard ministers for Syria and Quatar say stuff like that today. "brutal and totalitarian" are value judgements...are you really qualified to pass this judgment?

I'm as qualified to pass judgement on the Israeli occupation as I was to pass judgement on Jim Crow in the US south, Apartheid in South Africa, and on the Nazis for their crimes against humanity. If you think that standing up for human rights is propaganda, then you are hardly the humanitarian I had taken you to be. You need to learn a hell of a lot more than you currently do about the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands before you will be in a position to tell me what I am saying is propaganda.

"acts of agression"?? What IS the difference between that and "responses to provocation"? Weren't the suicide bus bombings in Israel 'acts of agression'?

Suicide bombings are always a response to occupation, regardless of who commmits them. So therefore, they are always a response to provocation. Nobody has a right to subjugate another people. I condemn suicide bombing as a tactic because it targets civilians. But the occupation is the catalyst for this behavior. This is true everywhere in the world where foriegn governments subject civilian populations to military occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 10:17 PM

I see I should never post in a discussion that I do not intend to monitor minute-by-minute....but...Carol

"...it is, in the last analysis, about whether or not Israel should continue to expand its borders and keep millions of people under a brutal and totalitarian military occupation, and to continue to commit acts of aggression against its neighbors..... "

first...Israel was gradually reducing its borders the last 10 years, as I understood it. They withdrew from Lebanon, from Gaza, destroyed settlements (with great complaints from settlers)...What am I missing here?

second...that sentence sounds like a propaganda message written by a Palestinian. I have heard ministers for Syria and Quatar say stuff like that today. "brutal and totalitarian" are value judgements...are you really qualified to pass this judgment? "acts of agression"?? What IS the difference between that and "responses to provocation"? Weren't the suicide bus bombings in Israel 'acts of agression'?

Before you treat me like an apologist for Israel, I hasten to say that I still decry Israel's degree and manner of many of their responses.

Finally, I see the growing suspicion that Hezbollah, funded and encouraged by Iran, is pushing and escalating much of this, with Israel taking the opportunity to execute long-planned incursions to neutralize Hezbollah.....in other words, as I said before, BOTH groups are hoping to play these kidnappings and responses into a larger plan...and woe be to innocent bystanders!

....and the suppliers of all the munitions that make all this possible are licking their chops!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 09:09 PM

you're right bruce, the scenario is terrifying. The sick thing is that there are people in power in Israel and the US who "believe" in Armageddon and will be influenced by their beliefs in their military decisions (shades of Ronald Raygun)

the most dangerous people are the ones who believe the only solution is military - and they're the ones in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:50 PM

I will repeat myself:

"That said, I think the Israelis have 'lost' it. They are doing themselves incredible damage in terms of 'public relations' to say nothing of the increasing civilian death toll. The US veto of the UN wish to restrain Israel was a bad move, IMO.

As to attacking Gaza: The israelis have had terrorist attacks coming from there for years. I think until the Palestinians are not treated as pawns by the Arab countries and Israel starts treating Palestinians as people, and until folks like ifor and his crew recognize that Israelis are also people who 60 years ago were themselves refugees, then this present 'action' will NOT stop. However, it must, because what we are seeing is the beginning of a very different war--one that cannot help but escalate. Please keep in mind that if Israel is backed to the sea, they WILL use nuclear weapons. The chance of Armageddon is here and now. I think people who favour one side or the other had best take a step back (and I include myself in that statement) and realize that what is now beginning may become impossible to stop without loss of life that will be numbered in hundreds of thousands or millions. This is no longer brinksmanship. Right now, political postures do not mean a damned thing. The lack of UN intervention, the lack of restraint by Israel AND the various terrorist organizations that target Israel, may well lead to what we have feared (for most of my life anyway): specifically, nuclear war."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:40 PM

BTW, I shouldn't have said "Lebanese civil war", there were two many other countries involved for it to be a genuine civil war.

"The term "civil war" is not adequate due to the complexity and foreign (Iranian-Israeli-Palestinian-Syrian) military forces role in the 1975-1990 war." (Wikipedia)

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:37 PM

Pdq, that quote from Mark Twain has nothing to do with what is happening in Gaza and Lebanon right now. Any perceptions of "ownership" or "entitlement" of land do not justify the current bombardments of Gaza and Lebanon.

After twelve years, the reconstruction of downtown Beirut (the Paris of the Middle East) was largely complete. I have a friend and colleague who is a Lebanese Christian from Beirut. He is still traumatised by the destruction that occurred during the Lebanese civil war, and his experiences then. His wife insisted he return three years ago, to see that things have changed. Now about 15,000 people are said to have crossed the Lebanese border into Syria, seeking refuge from widespread bombings carried out by F-16 warplanes. Now the situation in southern Beirut is horrific. There is no more food, no electricity or water.

"there was bombing and fire everywhere in Beirut before we left."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:30 PM

And they said "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Them stinkin' Jew-boys blah blah blah blah we shall see
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
F'ing ragheads blah blah blah blah"
And they just would not leave us be
And they said "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Back in the Dead Sea blah blah blah blah blah you must agree
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
And Mohammed said it in the year of six two three
Blah blah blah blah blah The Grand Mufti
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:22 PM

Mark Twain was blinded by the bigoted and racist Orientalist attitudes that were prevalent in Western countries in his day. A pity, too, because I have lost a lot of respect for the man because of that bigoted and racist attitude. There are plenty of books and other writings from people who were far more informed about that part of the world that are not at all in agreement with Twain's account of his experiences there.

Anyone who tries to use Twain's bigoted treatise on the subject of Palestine to try to justify the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the its stranglehold on Gaza is also a bigot, a racist, and a supremacist.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:15 PM

BTW, Carol I was wrong to say you hate Israel. I do know it's their policies you are against. My apologies for that remark.

Thanks, Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM

MARK TWAIN TRAVELS TO JERUSALEM
[Mark Twain has found the 1860's Holy Land to be a desolate wasteland, sparsely populated and poverty-stricken. As they trek down to Jerusalem, the troupe finds only one location that is well-cultivated - the habitation of an ancient group of Jews in Shechem.]

Chapter 49:

...It was hard to realize that this silent plain had once resounded with martial music and trembled to the tramp of armed men... A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action...

...We never saw a human being on the whole route, much less lawless hordes of Bedouins. Tabor stands solitary and alone, a giant sentinel above the Plain of Esdraelon...

Chapter 52:

...The narrow canyon in which Nablus, or Shechem, is situated is under high cultivation, and the soil is exceedingly black and fertile. It is well watered, and its affluent vegetation gains effect by contrast with the barren hills that tower on either side.

For thousands of years this clan have dwelt in Shechem under strict taboo and having little commerce or fellowship with their fellowmen of any religion or nationality. For generations they have not numbered more than one or two hundred, but they still adhere to their ancient faith and maintain their ancient rites and ceremonies. Talk of family and old descent! … This handful of old first families of Shechem…can name their fathers straight back without a flaw for thousands [of years]…. I found myself gazing at any straggling scion of this strange race with a riveted fascination, just as one would stare at a living mastodon or a megatherium…Carefully preserved among the sacred archives of this curious community is a MS copy of the ancient Jewish law, which is said to be the oldest document on earth...
[And they travel on...]

...The Further we went, the hotter the sun got, and the more rocky and bare, repulsive and dreary the landscape became… There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, and had almost deserted the country. No landscape exists that is more tiresome to the eye that that which bounds the approaches to Jerusalem...

...At last, away in the middle of the day, ancient bits of wall and crumbling arches began to line the way - we toiled up one more hill, and every pilgrim and every sinner swung his hat on high! Jerusalem! Perched on its eternal hills, white and domed and solid, massed together and hooped with high gray walls, the venerable city gleamed in the sun. So small! Why, it was no larger than an American village of four thousand inhabitants… Jerusalem numbers only fourteen thousand people...

Chapter 53:

...The population of Jerusalem is composed of Muslims, Jews, Greeks, Latins, Armenians, Syrians, Copts, Abyssinians, Greek Catholics, and a handful of Protestants. One hundred of the latter sect are all that dwell now in this birthplace of Christianity. The nice shades of nationality comprised in the above list and the languages spoken by them are altogether too numerous to mention. It seems to me that all the races and colors and tongues of the earth must be represented among the fourteen thousand souls that dwell in Jerusalem. Rags, wretchedness, poverty, and dirt, those signs and symbols that indicate the presence of Muslim rule more surely than the crescent flag itself, abound… I would not desire to live here...

Chapter 56:

Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince. The hills are barren, they are dull of color, they are unpicturesque in shape. The valleys are unsightly deserts fringed with a feeble vegetation that has an expression about it of being sorrowful and despondent. The Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee sleep in the midst of a vast stretch of hill and plain wherein the eye rests upon no pleasant tint, no striking object, no soft picture dreaming in a purple haze or mottled with the shadows of the clouds. Every outline is harsh, every feature is distinct, there is no perspective - distance works no enchantment here. It is a hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land.

Palestine is desolate and unlovely. And why should it be otherwise? Can the curse of the Deity beautify a land?

The so-called historic Palestinian homeland. Did the Jews come into a prosperous nation and divide it, or did they enter a desolate land and bring with them prosperity and trade, cultivation and health? A great deal has changed in Israel since Mark Twain's visit, and all inhabitants would do well to set aside their bombs and stones and to enjoy the benefits of living in what is now a bountiful, thriving, democratic nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 07:15 PM

BTW, Carol I was wrong to say you hate Israel. I do know it's their policies you are against. My apologies for that remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 07:11 PM

Now, if there was a way to convince the Powers that this is a good thing . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:57 PM

Peace, carol C, i agree too. That is an eminetly fair and sensible soulution, and the Palstinain people policing the millitants deserves at least the benefit of the doubt.

The only thing missing from it was very simple. All countries recognise Israel and Palestine and their borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:56 PM

Now, what can be done to shut down the terrorist organizations after what you have proposed gets put in place? Because we know they will not stop.

Israel will protect its borders along the Green Line, and as I said in my last post, the majority of Palestinians will fight against any organizations that would seek to jeopardize their independent nation by committing acts of terror in their name, and will cooperate with Israel in keeping their borders secure.

The terrorist organizations will no longer have the Palestinians to use as a rallying cry, and their attention will then shift to the other governments of occupation in the region, namely, the US and the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:46 PM

"Israel retreats to the Green Line, recognises the legitimate grievances of the Palestinians, allows a *nominal* right of return... this means allowing a small token number of elderly Palestinians to return to Israel (so they can die in the land they consider home, as a conciliatory gesture and as a recognition of their legitimate grievances), and leaves the Palestinians alone to get on with the process of building their country. Holy sites in Jerusalem should be protected by the international community. The majority of Palestinians will agree to these things, and once they have them, they will fight against anyone within their society who would try to endanger them by harming Israel or Israelis."

That I can agree with. Thank you, Carol. A goal worth going after. Now, what can be done to shut down the terrorist organizations after what you have proposed gets put in place? Because we know they will not stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:41 PM

Old Blevins

We had a little quarrel, she and I
She told me just to curl up and die
I crept out to drown my sorrows
At a joint called No Tomorrows
Where the old man came and looked me in the eye

Old Blevins

I could tell he had some wisdom to impart
Some story that was etched and burned and stamped
Upon his heart
Then his eyes began to glisten
'Cause he could see that I would listen
We sat there at that bar 'til nearly three
And this is what Old Blevins said to me

    He said "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
    In Tijuana blah blah blah back in 1963
    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
    You should have been there blah blah blah
    Is what Old Blevins said to me

I sat there and I listened to his words
As they flapped around my head like little birds
Had he gone plumb 'round the bend
Or could I just not comprehend
His lips were writing lines I could not read
When suddenly, it all came clear to me

    As he said "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
    Then crazy hippies blah blah blah blah no effect on me
    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
    The Great Depression blah blah blah
    And he would not leave me be

Old blevins was still talking when I seized my chance to flee
Back home she's never known I'm not the fool I used to be
Buy I know that a man and woman's lives were somehow changed
By a loathesome toothless geezer, incoherent and deranged
And my memories of that evening fuel and inner mounting fear
That I might become old Blevins anywhere that they sell beer

    And I'll say "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
    I don't remember blah blah blah blah blah blah
    Mistakes were made
    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
    How 'bout them Cowboys? blah blah blah
    Like Old Blevins used to say

Old Blevins
 

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:33 PM

And I want the various terrorist networks who ply their trades on behalf of 'Palestinians' to stop what they are doing.

Well, you'd better start applying pressure to the government of Israel to end the occupation, and the governments of the US, Canada, Australia, and the UK to put pressure on the government of Israel to end the occupation, or that will never happen.

Human Beings don't submit willingly to total subjugation and bondage. That is a fact of life that will never change, no matter how many nuclear weapons are involved.

As to intellectual dishonesty, clarify something: What would you envision as a 'just' settlement for the mid-East so that Israel remains as a Jewish homeland and the Palestinians also have a viable homeland?

Israel retreats to the Green Line, recognises the legitimate grievances of the Palestinians, allows a *nominal* right of return... this means allowing a small token number of elderly Palestinians to return to Israel (so they can die in the land they consider home, as a conciliatory gesture and as a recognition of their legitimate grievances), and leaves the Palestinians alone to get on with the process of building their country. Holy sites in Jerusalem should be protected by the international community. The majority of Palestinians will agree to these things, and once they have them, they will fight against anyone within their society who would try to endanger them by harming Israel or Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:32 PM

Hezbollah are not the Lebanese government.
The military wing of Hamas is not the Palestinian government.

The people of each place may sympathise with the (terrorists/freedom fighters) but they are not the actual fighters or killers.

Even if retribution by Israel against Hezbollah and against the military wing of Hamas were justified (sort of rather like the British Army shooting IRA terrorists don't you think?) how would that justify Israel destroying the infrastructure of the Lebanon and Gaza, and killing the civilian population there?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:23 PM

Unless one side or the other backs down within the next week or so, the prospect of a full scale war, probably with Syria, lomms very large indeed. Both sides are so deeply mired in blood and blame it no longer matters who did what.

Only the Israelis can back down. Their armed forces can be controlled, whilst the irregular forces in Gaza, the West Bank, Syria and Lebanon cannot. There needs to be the strength of will to order the army not to respond to provocation. One side hides its millitary targets in the midst of civilains, and the others use collective punishment. Unless this bloodbath is stopped soon, these war crimes will not be rememberd, except as footnotes to far more terrible things.


The real irony is that if Ariel Sharon, the blood soaked monster so many round here love to hate was stil in charge, the Israeli people would not have demanded action from him when the first soldier was kidnapped, and this last month would have been very different. The huge and diproportionate response was mainly the result of a new goverment wanting to re-assure its people that it took national security seriously. What a mess.....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM

Well put Peace...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:16 PM

As to intellectual dishonesty, clarify something: What would you envision as a 'just' settlement for the mid-East so that Israel remains as a Jewish homeland and the Palestinians also have a viable homeland?

BTW, Hatred for Palestinians? No, Hatred for organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah? Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:14 PM

And I want the various terrorist networks who ply their trades on behalf of 'Palestinians' to stop what they are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:05 PM

Stop letting your hatred of Israel cloud your perception. Right and wrong no longer matter.

This is an act of incredible intellectual dishonesty on your part, Peace.

I do not hate Israel. I want Israel to stop its insane policies, and to start behaving like civilized people in the Middle East.

At least I recognize Israel and it's right to continue its existance.

I've never once seen you recognize the Palestinians right to continue their existance. When you support the policies and practices of the government of Israel as they have been carried out in the past and continue to be carried out, you are providing them with help for doing what they are doing and have done.

It will not be until people like you and all of the people in countries like the US, Canada, the UK, Australia, and other such places tell them that they will not be supported in their acts of agression that any of this will come to a peaceful end.

As long as people like you provide them with cover for their activities, they will continue to do them, and there will not be an end until everybody in the region is dead.

But if enough people would apply pressure to the government of Israel stop these practices, they would have no choice but to stop.

I can only conclude that it is your hatred of Arabs, Palestinians, and Muslims that prevents you from doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:57 PM

Whatever, Carol. It won't change the result. This is not about who's right anymore. It is far beyond that. Stop letting your hatred of Israel cloud your perception. Right and wrong no longer matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:55 PM

Israel will continue to exist--or the mid-East will discontinue to exist.

This needs to be rephrased as well...

"Israel will take what it wants, or the mid-East will discontinue to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:53 PM

Back to our regularly scheduled program . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM

and you ought to know that there are varying definitions of "occupiers", Carol ...it is NOT cut & dried & simplistic.

Ok, I will rephrase...

There are occupiers and those who are living, with no civil rights or human rights whatever, under a brutal military occupation. That is about as cut and dried as it is possible to get.

There was an editorial in the Wash. Post today that explained it...it is, in the last analysis, about whether Israel shoud even exist or not.....and THAT is not cut & dried, either!

No it isn't. It is, in the last analysis, about whether or not Israel should continue to expand its borders and keep millions of people under a brutal and totalitarian military occupation, and to continue to commit acts of aggression against its neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:41 PM

Israel will continue to exist--or the mid-East will discontinue to exist. Amongst all the rhetoric and 'he pushed me back first' talk, the central issue is that reactions are getting stronger, and eventually the reactions will become stronger and slightly more disproportionate. None of this will mean a damned thing, no one's arguments about right, wrong, truth, justice. And until such time as thinking people grasp that, the war will escalate. And when the desert sands cool in fifty thousand years, anthropologists will look back on the written record here and ask, "Why didn't they stop it?"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:40 PM

Message to Bill D
The UN resolution 242 calls on the Israelis to withdraw from the occupied West Bank.It is not a part of Israel.
Also the Palestinian poulation is both Christian and muslim.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM

Where was I?
"Palestinian bully-boys " writes Robomatic.Mmmm.......Well it is avery rare sight to seem teenagers armed with rocks and sticks take on one of the mightiest armies in the world but that is what happened during the two Intifadas.
You remember the ones when the Israeli chiefs sent out orders to break the bones of the teenage stone throwers they caught. Mind you,they also shot hundreds then and are still shooting now.But bully-boys ? I think not.
Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:32 PM

"...but there ARE occupiers..."

and you ought to know that there are varying definitions of "occupiers", Carol ...it is NOT cut & dried & simplistic.

There was an editorial in the Wash. Post today that explained it...it is, in the last analysis, about whether Israel shoud even exist or not.....and THAT is not cut & dried, either!

Christian, Jews, Muslims...all have historical roots in the region. They **should** share the place......fat chance!

Anwar Sadat tried to work it out a few years back....seems that wasn't appreciated by HIS side.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:31 PM

Until such time as you recognize the right of Israel to exist, your words mean nothing, ifor. You care not for the poor or disenfranchised--just for YOUR choice of the poor and disenfranchised. That just ain't good enough in my book.