Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:30 PM

I don't think the rest of the speech really applies. As you said, Murray, this is a purely hypothetical case. "Wildly hypothetical." And when we start positing such hypothetical situations, the discussion can go to ridiculous extremes and become pointless.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:21 PM

We all know Hitler always had a song in his heart. Now that was a painter.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:12 PM

...So let it be with Hitler…
The noble Goering
Hath told you Hitler was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Hitler answered it….
Here, under leave of Goering and the rest,
(For Goering is an honourable man;
So are they all; all honourable men)
Come I to speak in Hitler's funeral….
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Goering says he was ambitious;
And Goering is an honourable man….

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:06 PM

Ah, SO! I wondered how long it would take for this discussion to slide into the realm of the purely hypothetical. "A lovely little piece of music composed by Adolf Hitler."

Here's something to consider:   No person is the villain in his own movie.

I won't go through the murky convolutions of Adolf Hitler's beliefs, but they were colored by a number of factors, not the least of which was a liberal dose of Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophy, especially Nietzsche's concept of the Ubermensche, or "Superman." He believed that the "Aryan Race" (in his mind, tall, blond Teutonic/Nordic types were that Aryan race (somewhat oblivious to the fact that he was neither tall nor blond), and that it was high time that all the human chaff was swept away so that the Übermensch could take his rightful place in the world. Compounding this was his belief (shared by many Germans at the time) that Germany got a bum rap after World War I and that the treaties were unfairly restrictive, so they should be rescinded or ignored.

Hitler thought he was doing the right thing.

Most of the world considers him to have been a murderous madman. The moral here is—it is never a good idea to put a person with irrational beliefs and a bellicose nature in charge of a country. (Ahem!)

If, during his lurid career, he turned his hand toward writing music, I would certainly listen to it, at least once, as a matter of curiosity. Whether or not I would perform it myself and "have ZERO concerns about enjoying, performing, recording, sharing, and otherwise propagating" it, however, would depend on an number of things, not the least of which would be the piece itself, independent of who the composer was.

The question is much too hypothetical to be taken seriously.

Besides,

The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interréd with their bones.
                      —Julius Caesar, Act 3, Sc. 2, William Shakespeare

Give the Devil his due.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:16 PM

No, it's a hideous song.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:51 AM

"And, to contribute a little bit of thread drift to the discussion, is there any practical way to prevent bagpipers from ever playing this?"

I tell you what, if I NEVER hear it on the bagpipes again, I'll be one happy camper. Like Wesley, I think it's an overdone song in spite of its enduring beauty, and one Mister and I won't sing unless someone specifically requests it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:21 AM

This song has so endeared itself to many people that its origin is likely of little consequence to most of them. I am certain that there are other examples of works created by men of less than noble lives and deeds that transcend those roots, so long as the works have redeeming social or spiritual value in and of themselves.

You could look at it, assuming you are a religious person, as the Lord pulling good works through the least likely of channels for reasons known only to Him (or Her?).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:03 AM

Like Steve B., I knew that Newton was a reformed slaver trader, but assumed (or was led to believe) that he reformed at the time of his conversion experience, not years later.

So this is all very interesting, but I agree with those who vote for singing the song without regard for my judgement (or anyone's) of the composer's moral character.

But ~ again ~ this has been a very interesting and informative discussion.

PS, to GUEST,Volgadon: It had never occurred to me that "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" celebrated an audulterous love affair. I'll have to look up the lyrics for both songs you mentioned.

I neither condone nor practice adultery, but I do thoroughly enjoy singing songs that include sly references to such activity. A longtime favorite: "Ain't No Tellin'," John Hurt's version of the traditional "Pallet on the Floor.":

Don't you let my good gal catch you here (2x)
She might shoot you, might cut you and stob you too,
Ain't no tellin' just what she might do.
...
Make me a pallet, down soft and low
Make it where your husband will never know...

I no longer expect anyone among my listeners to take these lyrics seriously. (When I was single and much younger, well, things were a little different.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:27 AM

I'm not sure any conversion or faith is absolute, and I like to imagine that the continued use of Amazing Grace is the continued trail of Newton's and anybody else's conversion and faith. That he was or wasn't entirely of pure heart isn't so much the matter as he apparently struggled somewhat with faith, and AG might just be the hope in his faith, however challenged. Better hope than doubt for any disciple.

It's far from my favourite hymn, though I don't dislike it, but it is so overused. If I had a penny for every time I've heard it on pennywhistle, pipes, mandolin, voice, organ...I could buy a slave.

Sing it or not, but judge not. There are many other hymns of dubious beginnings.

Fwiw.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:24 AM

This is the dumbest thread I have ever seen. What possible difference does it make? It is a beautiful hymn. I am sick of people who feel that we have to apologize for things our ancestors did and pander to whatever group it is that is whining and blaming acts committed hundreds of years ago for their own shortcomings. Slavery was a bad thing but I had nothing to do with it and I owe no one an apology for it. Political correctness or what ever it is called today, is ruining this country. We are what we are today, not what our ancestors were.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Greg B
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:18 AM

Perhaps a more accessible example is that the Christmas carol
"Away in a Manger" was a no-no in Roman Catholic institutions
up until recently.

Why?

It was supposedly written by Martin Luther.

Sort of points up why the whole discussion is absurd. At some
point you get to where you toss out the Constitution of the
United States of America because a bunch of the guys who came
up with the underlying concepts and wrote and ratified it were
themselves, slaveholders. Note that when they figured out that
slavery was a bad idea, they amended it, rather than tossing it.

When they sing 'Amazing Grace' or play it on the pipes at a
fallen policeman's funeral, it isn't about Newton at all, his
conversion or failure to be genuine in same notwithstanding.

It's about the guy in the box.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Grab
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:11 AM

There WAS a widespread awareness during Newton's time that slavery was NOT ok

No there wasn't. There were people who thought that it was bad, sure, but this isn't the same as "widespread awareness". In the US today, there are people who think it's bad for the environment to drive an SUV every day or run air conditioning in your house in summer instead of just opening windows and closing shutters, but it's safe to say that this isn't a "widespread awareness" in the US as a whole...

Slavery wasn't just legal then, it was actively supported by governments and the Catholic church. It was even supported by Africans themselves - as has previously been pointed out, Europeans were usually simply exporting African slaves who had already been captured and enslaved by other Africans.

Also consider the attitudes of the time. The press-gang was a widely-practised way of getting new recruits for the Army and Navy - essentially another form of slavery. Lower-class soldiers were basically thought of as subhuman cannon-fodder, and wars were started between the European nobility over trivial matters which resulted in massive slaughters of men. The unemployed ended up in forced labour in the workhouse - essentially another form of slavery - and even workhouses were an improvement on the previous situation, because at least they got some food and medical care, and women weren't forced into prostitution.

Basically, this wasn't a time when human rights featured very highly. So although we can criticise slavers by modern standards of morality, we're not in a position to judge them by the standards of *their* day.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:59 AM

What sins will future generations see? Will it be the cars? The pollution? The processed foods? Fox News?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:25 AM

What about people that have affairs or leave their wife and kids? Not the noblest behaviour.
Does that stop me from enjoying and singing "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" or, "Turn Your Lights Down Low"?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:51 AM

When people are involved in some institutionalisd evil, and come to recognise this, there are two ways of dealing with it. One is to find a way of removing themselves from it, and the other is to try to reduce the damage being done to people, which may mean continued involvement.

It isn't always obvious that the former way is the right way or the best way. Would it really has been best if Oskar Schindler had cut all his connections with the Nazi machine and with the slave factories?

Deciding how to act in that kind of situation must be extraordinarily hard, especially when personal selfish motivations can be entangled with sincere attempts to make things better than they would otherwise be. As was the case with Schindler - and very probably with John Newton.

I don't think we should pride ourselves on the clean hands we have done nothing to clean, and rush to easy judgements about how others have dealt with these things.

And we shouldn't be too confident that people in other times will not look at the things we are involved in in the world today and think that our hands are far from clean.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:27 AM

Sufism is a WAY of being religious. For sure. A very worthwhile study. As for conversion: life changing, viewpoint altering experiences, while not "common" are familiar to all races, creeds and tribes. The Buddha under the Bo Tree, for example. I wasn't trying to be mutually exclusive but I was speaking from personal experience. I can readily relate to similar profound experiences of other. There are many, many points in common to each.

The other point I attempted to make was that we cannot judge a work of art or a good deed by the character of the person who does the art of performs the deed. And, one should always be careful in judging someone without really knowing or understanding the context of their life and historical situation. Each age, each era has its own standard of truth and general idea of what is right and wrong. Some of these standards appear to be universal and timeless e.g. it is wrong to murder. Others, like polygamy are more nebulous or have the weight of history behind it. Judge "Amazing Grace" for it's internal logic, its own beauty. If it doesn't speak to you try "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag"! And don't be afraid to appreciate something just because the originator may have a skeleton or two in the closet.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:46 AM

There has to be a limit, for practical purposes, to how much consideration should be given to the character of the artist when judging a work of art. Heck, I'll be even more general: The same applies for any act.

An act of kindness or charity is not invalidated by the character of the person. Even criminals can be good parents or good friends to someone. In the UK, there is increasing resistance to the tabloids' raking up the past of politicians (before they entered politicas, or when they were teenagers, for example) in a frenzy to create headlines.

The act should stand and get judged on its own merits. Does it though? The recipient of a gift may consider how rich the donor is and judge it of a higher worth of the donor is poor. That is not judging the act, but the discomfort of the donor - not the same thing.

It's symbolism that gets in the way of clear thinking. A song may be symbolic of something, or used symbolically by a certain group of people, with which we do not want to be associated; the temptation is to drop it. In a sense it depends on our own moral strength to withstand unfair or unjust comparisons.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:23 AM

Steve, you've started a great discussion, so don't lose heart.
By the way, I wish more people would discover Rumi. Perhaps it would help them learn to be a bit more tolerant.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:54 AM

"it was just a reflection on the fact that :
A)a man who had done many odious things did a great thing,
B) that we remember many men who did great and odious things,and
C)to make things easy, we lean toward ignoring one or the other--which, we really shouldn't do-- "

All points well taken, Ted. No hard feelings. Jeez, I can't even say I disagree with you.

As for your comments, Slag, that's a whole new subject. I'll just say that I fail to see what's so "amazing" about the kind of grace you speak of. I have never seen any difference between the kind of Christian conversion you describe and a general maturing process of the sort that Newton himself perhaps made, and that most of us make as we start acumulating more life experience. Yes, I get that Christians are fond of saying that their conversion is supernaturally effected, but that's going beyond the evidence. Their conversions bring about changes that are no more fundamental than the changes experienced by those who convert to non-Christian religions, have near death experiences, fall in love, have a profound travel experience, discover Rumi, etc. etc. etc. Nuthin' "amazing" about that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:37 AM

Joe, I can tell you, it's real.

Did you know that Newton himself was captured and held as a slave for a period of time until he escaped? Haven't seen that mentioned. Did you know that slavery has thousands of years of history and social and cultural acceptability. The "NOW" generation always seems to pass judgment on the previous generation(s) because the "NOW" generation is so superior.

Please don't think that I am condoning slavery. I find it as one of the most odious institutions. I'm thinking of primarily the enslavement of Africans as the work engines of the incipient industrial revolution. Slavery was practiced by the American Indians and virtually every ancient society. Slavery practiced by the Israelites provided a means of protecting and nourishing the indigent and freedom was granted after 7 years. If the slave asked and his lord agreed he could become that person's slave for life. It was somewhat akin to adoption. Roman slavery could be much harsher but some Roman slaves were quite important people and held positions of power. Women were not even considered people unless they were married. They were chattel, property. A "loose" woman had but one source of income. Also throughout history multiple marriage has been the norm. It's amazing what culturally tinted glasses allow us to see.

As for the song Amazing Grace, in and of itself, it is about Christian conversion. It is the revelation of, first, the self as seen by God. And it is a revelation OF God to the person who has been apprehended with the goods, red handed and totally guilty and desperately in need of forgiveness, salvation. That salvation is afforded in the person of Jesus Christ Who has paid the penalty for our sins. And most of all, it is about God's love and forgiveness which changes lives. That's Grace, unmerited favor with God. You can't do anything to earn it. If you could then Christ's death would have been unnecessary. It's a free gift available to any and all who acknowledge him (Jesus) as God's remedy for Mankind's lost situation. Not lost? Don't worry about it then. Christianity is not for you. As Christ told the pharisees, he came to seek and to save those who were lost.

Christian salvation or conversion doesn't instantly make you perfect, at least not in this world. It does set one's feet upon a new path and there are a lot of growing pains along the way. You are not perfect, just forgiven. You can get up and keep going after you may have stumbled or fallen. You understand that there is a real personal opposition to you and that you have just now begun the real battle against evil. "Through many dangers, toils and snares". You find that people you once couldn't stand to be around are now your best friends and allies. You'll find that some of your old friends will distance themselves from you. This includes family members and other folk you thought you knew. You find some people think you're nuts or need a make-believe friend to get you through life, and on and on. And through it all you will find that it is God who is faithful and not you because it is HIS Grace that saves you. It is a gift. That's what grace is. Thank Him if you know Him and keep on. It truly is amazing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:35 AM

I said " If you've just found out that Newton was a slave trader, you're the one who has been naive."   A conditional statement--and since you haven't just found out, the condition isn't met, and we're both off the hook;-)

Looking at my comment, it seems more harsh than I meant to be--my point wasn't meant to be personal judgement--

it was just a reflection on the fact that :
A)a man who had done many odious things did a great thing,
B) that we remember many men who did great and odious things,and
C)to make things easy, we lean toward ignoring one or the other--which, we really shouldn't do--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:32 AM

Hi Ted. Actually, I have know for a long time that Newton was a slave trader, it's just that I believed he had written ths song right after the dramatic conversion at sea and then given up slave trading in response to that conversion. (Incidentally, you'll find that I am not the only one who has fallen prey to believing this myth.) I only later learned that he kept up the slave trade until he couldn't any more. That's not the Newton I thought we all knew and loved.

I hope you'll forgive me for not having all these facts down earlier. And I'll forgive you for making assumptions about my state of knowledge.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:14 AM

Steve Baughman -- If you've just found out that Newton was a slave trader, you're the one who has been naive--the song's history, and the man's history have not been kept secret--I can only conclude that, for some reason or another, you've chosen to avoid the details of the history of Slavery, and, possibly even the racism that necessarily went along with it.

As an educated, American adult, and a legal professional, you should have started to deal with this a long time ago. A little bit of revulsion is good for you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:45 PM

"but recognize that this is your own personal choice or idiosyncrasy, not something you have some right to impose on another. Why try to make a requirement out of such a thing?" Amos.

Jeez, Amos. . . will you quit feeling like I'm some Nazi trying to "impose" stuff on you? Get it straight: no "requirements" are being imposed, proposed, pronounced, advocated, legislated, or otherwise decreed here. OK?

Don, great point. And if you really think that, then you will have ZERO concerns about enjoying, performing, recording, sharing, and otherwise propagating a lovely little piece of music composed by Adolf Hitler (Murray's point above.) Is that the case? Consistency requires that you say "yes." Otherwise, you'll have some explaining to do :-) But your point is a great one. It has gotten me thinking, much as this entire thread has. I am eager to hear your reply to my question.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:22 PM

. . . "Newton," that is. . . .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:18 PM

As long as one is generally aware of slavery and the multiplicity of other such crimes against humanity, I don't really see that the specific knowledge that Amazing Grace was written by a slave trader, or that the operatic tetralogy, The Ring of the Nibelungen was written by a person who, among other things, was anti-Semitic does anything of value. Newman and Wagner are both dead. Focusing on the unadmirable characteristics of these two people doesn't decrease slavery or anti-Semitism in any way.

The only thing such a focus accomplishes is that it taints one's own enjoyment of otherwise fine works of art.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:45 PM

It is a far cry from "being naive" about the song's origin to require others to think about slavery 200 years ago whenever they sing it. Are you asking them to ignore its spiritual statements, and disregard the elegant simplicity of its tones, and ignore the elegance of its structure?

Here's an idea: how about granting others the right to place their attention where they please? As I said up thread if you feel obligated to think of certain things when hearing certain songs, do so, and act accordingly, but recognize that this is your own personal choice or idiosyncrasy, not something you have some right to impose on another. Why try to make a requirement out of such a thing?

A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:40 PM

Murray, that's a great point. And to the extent that folks admit to discomfort about enjoying a Hitler hit, they acknowledge the legitimacy of my original question.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:39 PM

Talking about 'reasoned discussion' in one breath while in
the next playing the 'Hitler card' strikes me as an exercise
in studied rhetorical irony...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:39 PM

And, to contribute a little bit of thread drift to the discussion, is there any practical way to prevent bagpipers from ever playing this?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:39 PM

"But Steve, where does it stop?"

Yes, Don, that's the tough question. Do we get to where we assume an affirmative duty to investigate the political origins of music before we enjoy it? I'd say no. The KKK uses one of my favorite hymns regularly (Old Rugged Cross). It will not stop me from enjoying the song. It might, however, give me pause about starting the song at a multi-racial song circle in Alabama. Point is, more awareness is good.

But you're right. Where does it stop? I'd invoke my favorite philosopher here, Richard Rorty, who noted that by the absence of absolute rules we are forever condemned to "muddling through." And we muddle through better when we have more awareness than when we have less. Not being naive about the origins of Amazing Grace is better than being naive about them.

You probably find my answer (Rorty's)as unsatisfactory, as I do. But I think it's all we've got.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:31 PM

I think Steve brings up a perfectly valid point.

whether you agree with it or not, it is surely possible to have a reasoned discussion about it without all the aggressive defensiveness.

to take a wildly hypothetical case, if an absolutely beautiful song were discovered, and it was later established that it had been written by Hitler, would anybody sing it ?

I did say wildly hypothetical ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:20 PM

But Steve, where does it stop?

Some music critic took Leonard Bernstein to task for "plagiarizing" Beethoven, pointing out that for the song "There's a Place of Us" in West Side Story, Bernstein had used a passage from the slow movement of Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto, "The Emperor." "Plagiarize!?" snorted Bernstein. "That's a bit harsh. Yes, I did use the tune. Composers have always borrowed from each other. Standard operating procedure. Besides, that's far too beautiful a melody to be used only once!"

In fact, according to Carl Czerny, a friend of Beethoven's, the slow middle movement of the concerto is based on an Austrian pilgrim hymn (!).

So—for enlightenment and education of the listener who was upset by my playing a Beethoven piano concerto and who seemed to believe that Beethoven should not be played because Adolph Hitler happened to be fond of his music, I would suggest that he should also beware of Bernstein and avoid listening to music from Broadway musicals like West Side Story. And a great deal of other music! Because unless you have a very good memory for a lot of melodic and harmonic figures, you might inadvertently find yourself listening to something that will leave you morally and ethically polluted. Perhaps he should stop listening to music altogether!

I am certainly aware of the evil in the world, and I am hardly idle when it comes to trying to combat it whenever I can. But speaking of pollution, I am not going to pollute my own aesthetic enjoyment of music or any of the other arts by researching and carefully scrutinizing the moral character of every artist whose work I consider listening to, seeing, playing, or singing in order to determine whether I should be doing so or not. The moral character of the artist died with him. The art lives on. And unless it consists of propaganda for something that is morally remiss, it is no longer a moral issue.

A work of Art stands or falls on its own merits. What baggage the artist may or may not have carried is not relevant.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:04 PM

"Awareness is good".
Can't fault that, Steve. And indeed, I learned much in this thread about Newton that I didn't know before.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:58 PM

Mr. Newton is long dead. He tried to come to terms with the errors in his life that he saw, which is the best that any of us can do. None of us are in a position to judge him, in part at least, because none of us know what was in his heart.

Slavery still exists in this world. Both children and adults are still sold into bondage in West Africa, there are slaves held in Sudan, Pakistan, Haiti, India, and many other places. Check this for an overview-Slavery in the Modern World

Whether you sing "Amazing Grace" or not has no effect on the situation of human beings who are being held in slavery. There are a lot of other actions that you can take which may make a difference. The choice, as always, is yours alone.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:57 PM

"not with its connotations of rule-setting"

Amen, rule setting is bad. But awareness is good, even when it's of bad things.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:49 PM

"It's a fair question...". Actually, like SRS, GregB, Don Firth and others, no, I don't think so, not with its connotations of rule-setting. But I would grant that Steve asked the question innocently, albeit in the grip of some anger. Me, I like to remind myself of Si Kahn's line, when I get close to being overly righteous:

"I'm afraid of what you're doing in the name of your god..."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:43 PM

"I would just like Steve Baughman to clarify whether he is in fact the Steve Baughman, acoustic guitar virtuoso, or whether he is an attorney who just happens to share the same name as aforememtioned virtuoso."

I am both the Celtic guitar player and the attorney. We're the same person. I'm a rare visitor to Mudcat, but I was at a song session last night and had a reaction (for the first time in my life, by the way) to Amazing Grace. I thought I'd see what folks here had to say about the issue. Thanks for being here to discuss.   

As for Greg B's tyrade, (may I call it that? I think that's what it was), I am, again, puzzled by the tantrums folks are throwing over me raising the issue. Could it be that people don't like to admit that the personal really is political? Is that really too inconvenient a truth for us to want to bother with? I applaud Greg B for recognizing that some human suffering is behind our Nike shoes, a lot went into the stone walls that the slaves built, and our rosewood guitars may indeed contribute to rain forest destruction. What I don't understand is the angry energy over one bringing the point up. These things are not just "my problem." The issue is one with broader implications.

I recognize that we've gone from an old song to current events, but I suspect that there is benefit in recognizing, as Greg B does, that some unpleasant truths might lurk behind the things that we enjoy. Better to know about those truths than not to, eh?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: maeve
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:39 PM

I see no reason that you shouldn't wrestle with this question if you have the need. Conversion must be joined by repentence and change. There are (thankfully) no rules regarding the required time span for this gradual spiritual growth to take place, except that it does need to be before death.

I've read various Newton biographies over the years, and have great respect for him and for his wife, for struggling with the need for personal change and committment to God's standard in place of a personal human standard. Perfection is not required. God is particularly concerned with reaching those of us who struggle and fail miserably. The journey is its own reward.

I treasure the song and the details of Newton's life because it gives me hope and comfort. His is a perfect example of imperfect man beginning to recognize his shortcomings and the very long learning curve that follows, leading him toward becoming a child of God. Put it into whatever translation you must, but allow yourself to work through what your personal goblins might be. It's between you and God. Meanwhile, I'm glad you asked. Find a song you can sing with your whole heart.

maeve

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:29 PM

I would just like Steve Baughman to clarify whether he is in fact the Steve Baughman, acoustic guitar virtuoso, or whether he is an attorney who just happens to share the same name as aforememtioned virtuoso.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:17 PM

"I do, however, hope thaf folks who choose to sing Amazing Grace, and feel warm fuzzies when they do, will keep in mind the horrible things that the chap who wrote it did, things that he never fully repented of."

Yeah, and every time I drive down a country road and look at the
beautiful stone walls, I'll keep in mind that slaves built them. That
way I can suitably ruin the whole experience. Hell, maybe I'll just pull over, pick a rock off the top and bash
my brains out with it in order to assuage my guilt at having enjoyed
the view.

While I'm at it I'll light my Nike sneakers on fire, and toss my
Victorian era concertinas into the blaze. After all, the former
are made by underpaid foreign labor and the latter were made by
industrial revolution era wage-slaves.

Guess I can dump my guitars onto the blaze, as well--- they've
got rain forest wood in them.

Maybe I'll just sit at home and do nothing at all, that way I won't
offend anyone. No, damn it--- the studs in my house's frame were
made from clear-cut Pacific Northwest forests, and the gypsum in
the wallboard was probably strip-mined.

If you don't want to sing Amazing Grace, then don't.

But do stop trying to poison it for everyone else, and FOR GOD'S
SAKE RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S YOUR PROBLEM NOT EVERYONE ELSE'S. If you
have the flu, you don't cough on other people on purpose. So maybe
stop trying to make your personal neuroses contagious as well.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:17 PM

I would just like Steve Baughman to clarify whether he is in fact the Steve Baughman, acoustic guitar virtuoso, or whether he is an attorney who just happens to share the same name as aforememtioned virtuoso.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:05 PM

I don't think you are ogre like for asking. Sounds to me like you are a performer with a conscience. I hope your concerns are alleviated by the comments so far.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 07:55 PM

and feel warm fuzzies when they do

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 07:53 PM

"I don't know which is worse--- slavers or people who try to tell
other people what ought not be sung."

(Well, I'd pick the slavers on that one, and I really hope you would too.) In any event, I'm not telling anyone to do or not do anything. I do, however, hope thaf folks who choose to sing Amazing Grace, and feel warm fuzzies when they do, will keep in mind the horrible things that the chap who wrote it did, things that he never fully repented of.

A broader question, of course, is the extent to which the politics of artists should affect our enjoyment of their art (Wagner is a fine example, Hank Williams, Jr. is another). It is a tough question, and I think it's important one to ask. I'm a bit taken aback by the folks who think it is ogre-like of me to do so.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 07:34 PM

You could always consider that it may have been what my brother calls Divine Inspiration that brought it out of Newton; in those few moments it took him to write it down, he was "At One" with whatever higher being he believed in or you might believe in.

Just a suggestion. I know there are times when I listen to Mozart, Beethoven and others, including some folk, when I feel the music is absolutely sublime and directly channelled from someone's heart which was fully open to receiving when they wrote it. My brother leads a fairly miserable life, but when he sets aside his self-pity and starts in on his compositions, he goes to another realm. The music he writes in no way reflects his circumstances at the time; as far as he is concerned it is divinely inspired. It certainly sounds like it to a lot of folks. Perhaps that was the case with Newton.

Imagine having a flash of clarity like that which would inspire such a beautiful song. It would be difficult to sustain that and probably wouldn't be very healthy for one to do so, anyway.

Well, that's my metaphysical two cents worth...:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: gnomad
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 07:14 PM

I don't sing this (I hold no religious beliefs) but I have always assumed its singers were expressing wonder and joy at their personal salvation, rather than just echoing that of an earlier reformed sinner. As such it seems to me that the exact nature of the sin would be a secondary matter. Have I simply had the wrong end of the stick?

Either way I recognise a fine song, as do many other non-believers I am sure. That I cannot subscribe to its sentiment is my loss.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 06:49 PM

I don't know which is worse--- slavers or people who try to tell
other people what ought not be sung.

But seriously, 'Amazing Grace' is a song that has been validated
by its singers, and the times at which they've sung it. So very
often it's been sung at particularly poignant times in the lives
of individuals and groups to express the sentiment that there's
something bigger than all of us which binds the universe together.

It's the singer--- not the author--- and the times and company
in which it's sung that bespeaks the merit of a song.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 06:39 PM

*IF* the issue was about a living composer with nasty political views, and boycotting a song could deny him royalties and put pressure on him, then it would be useful...but 250 years in the past? Nope...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 05:25 PM

About three decades ago, I worked as an announcer at a classical music radio station. One afternoon, I put the afternoon's scheduled featured work on the turntable, announced what it was and who was doing it, started the turntable, flipped off the mic switch, and sat back with my feet propped up, a fresh cup of coffee in my hand, and enjoyed the music.

The light on the telephone lit up (the phone in the studio didn't ring in case the mic was open; a light told you that you had a caller). I picked it up and said, "Good afternoon. KXA."

The caller—with a European accent—was furious! He launched into a tirade about the station playing "Nazi music," and threatened alternately to have me fired or have the station's FCC license pulled. There was no calming the man. He was in a frenzy of rage. Finally, he ran out of steam and hung up.

I did a little research, and eventually discovered that the featured work of the afternoon had been a favorite of Adolf Hitler's.

It was a Beethoven piano concerto.

Hitler was also fond of Richard Wagner's operas, and to compound the felony, Wagner was known to be fiercely anti-Semitic. But this didn't prevent him from writing some pretty magnificent music.

Somehow, I don't think listening to—or performing—Beethoven or Wagner, or for that matter, Richard Strauss (another of Hitler's favorites), is an endorsement of Nazi politics, or that going to a Wagner opera means one approves of anti-Semitism. It isn't exactly as if Wagner is still receiving royalties and you are supporting him financially.

I have a repertoire of a few hundred songs. Since the vast majority of them are traditional, and the authors—and the beliefs, peculiarities, and peccadilloes of the authors—are not only unknown, but unknowable to me, I take a song or other work of art on its own merit, not on what kind of an odd-ball the composer or artist might have been, or who else might also like the work.

Don Firth