From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 11:45 AM

"seems unlikely to me that Shay and Berger would have taken this from Benet and changed the song. Benet is the literary person here. I would think that it is more likely that he adapted it."

Unlikely? Why? Simple and easy, especially if they assumed, as one might like to, that Benet had inside information. There's no basis for that assumption. What's more, the captain in Benet's poem really is named "Captain Ball."

Without a stated traditional source, there's no basis for accepting Benet's verse (or anyone else's) as traditional in any way.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 08:31 AM

John-

I first heard the "slave trading version" on BLOW BOYS BLOW (of course!) by MacCall & Lloyd and their notes attribute the song to "the West African run, during the slave trade...the stanza about the packet-ship firing its gun may date from the Civil War, or may refer to an anti-slavery patrol." I always assumed that the "fires her gun, can't you hear the racket" was simply the slave ship announcing her departure as she makes her way down the Congo River.

In Lloyd's FOLK SONG IN ENGLAND, 1967. pp. 301-302, he points out that some sets of verses associated with "Blow Boys Blow" are also sung with Shallow Brown" as the chorus. Lloyd also mentions in this book, p. 308, that "Sally Brown" is one of the oldest shanties, being noted by Captain Marryat while he was aboard" a Western Ocean packet in 1837."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:34 PM

The copyright for Benet's book is 1927 and 1928. Shay's book that contains the "maverick verse" was published in 1948. But it is based on an earlier version from 1924. However, this earlier work by Shay has no mention of the "maverick verse" and, it doesn't have the last verse which contains the line about the "Congo River". See here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/ironmenwoodenshi00shayrich#page/10/mode/2up

Berger's book, mentioned above, was published in 1941. So where did this "maverick verse" come from? I suppose it's possible that Shay got it from Berger, but that doesn't seem likely to me. Is Benet's literary adaptation/creation the source? But Benet's verse is supposedly from "Blow the Man Down" and not "Blow Bullies Blow". Perhaps Benet knew of the old New England whaling verse but switched it to another song for his literary purposes. Perhaps the verse was used in both songs. I seems unlikely to me that Shay and Berger would have taken this from Benet and changed the song. Benet is the literary person here. I would think that it is more likely that he adapted it. In any case, this verse, which could be an important link to the slave traders is clouded.

And with regard to the "Congo River" verses, here is what I have found so far. C. F. Smith mentions that they existed but doesn't quote them. They show up in the Frothingham collection mentioned above (1924). One verse shows up in the Shay revision of 1948. Doeflinger (1951) has "Congo River" in one verse and mentions that "this shanty recalls the old Guinea trade." (pages 25-26). Colcord says that this song "started life as a slaving song" and gives the Congo River verse ( p. 47).   And we have Hugill's version from his 1961 book, which he says he got from "an Australian seaman, ex-"Manurewa" and "Silver Pine". (page 226). Do we have any other references to the "Congo River" version?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM

The lines about "Captain Ball," set to "Blow the Man Down," not "Blow, Boys, Blow," seems to have been written by the poet Stephen Vincent Benet for "John Brown's Body" (1928).

Benet has Captain Ball say they've "even made a song" about him. In Benet's version, "slaver" rhymes with "Saviour."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:27 PM

The 1858 US ship was the Wanderer

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:25 PM

US Slave ships may have been illegal, but the ships continued to bring slaves to southern ports and to Brazil right up to the Civil War.
See Voyage to a Thousand Cares: Master's Mate Lawrence with the Africa Squadron, 1844-1846.
This is the story of a US sloop of war and its actions against American ships engaged in the slavery trade. One ship taken has 900 slaves, of whom 200 died after rescue as they were being taken to Liberia to be freed.

The US ship , from NY Yacht Club with Yankee owners, was the last to be fitted out for the slave trade. Fitted in Port Jefferson (stopped but freed by authorities) and at Charleston, SC, the ship sailed to Africa, took on 600 slaves and unloaded 465 survivors at Jekyll Island, Georgia, in 1858.
Northern Profits from Slavery

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:57 PM

Charley, thanks for these additional references. The one from Shay is almost exactly the same as the one from Berger - Ball to Hall, and Yankee to Boston. Unless someone else comes up with some more material, I'm going to move my attention on to the whalers. There should be a little more to go on there. I realize that there is overlap amongst my categories.

Whaling went on for a long time, and it was certainly happening in the decades leading up to and following the voyages of the "Julia Ann". Captain Pond's First Mate on his third and fourth voyages was Peter Coffin. Pond recruited Coffin when he took the "Julia Ann" to Stillicome at the head of Puget Sound to load timber for Sydney for his Third voyage. At the time, Coffin was the captain of a Revenue Cutter and "an old whaler of fifteen years experience on the Pacific Ocean."

From Olmstead's INCIDENTS OF A WHALING VOYAGE , we've already listed "Drunken Sailor" and "Haul Her Away", which he dates in 1840. Early versions of "Highland Laddie" were definitely sung on board the whalers. We've just noted that some versions of "Blow Boys, Blow" were sung on board the whalers. I'm still looking with regard to the whalers. I know that "Ranzo" is one.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:18 PM

Blow Boys Blow (Congo River) seems to be the only shanty that sometimes includes verses related to the slave trade, and most likely when that trade was illegal in the States.

It's interesting that such anachronistic verses actually survived to be written down.

C. Fox Smith in her introduction to the song in A BOOK OF SHANTIES, 1927, says:

This shanty is said to have referred originally to the slave trade, and some versions give a number of stanzas in which the Congo River is mentioned...

Frank Shay in AN AMERICAN SAILOR'S TREASURY, 1948, includes what he describes as a "maverick verse" collected in New England:

Oh, Captain Hall was a Boston slaver,
Blow, boys, blow!
He traded in n*****s and loved his Maker,
Blow, my bully boys, blow!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:38 PM

Lighter, I think your conclusions about shanties created in or coming from the slave trade pretty well sum up what I've been able to (not) find on this subject. Even the references to the "Congo River " version of "Blow Boys Blow" are somewhat scarce. I did find this collection by Robert Frothingham, called SONGS OF THE SEA AND SAILORS' CHANTEYS: AN ANTHOLOGY, from 1924:

http://books.google.com/books?id=owcoe5PU6WcC&pg=PA244&dq=%22Blow+Boys+Blow%22&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22Blow%20Boys%20Blow%22&f=f

But he substitutes "Old shot and shell, she breaks the embargo," for the line about "black sheep". (p. 245). I also found this single interesting verse in IN GREAT WATERS: THE STORY OF THE PORTUGUESE FISHERMEN, by Josef Berger (originally printed in 1941), p. 43:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZC4diHs-RWMC&pg=PA43&dq=%22Blow+Boys+Blow%22&lr=&cd=149#v=onepage&q=%22Blow%20Boys%20Blow%22&f=

The author seems to be discussing the New Bedford whaling fleet and how some of them turned to the slave trade, and he presents this verse from "an old whaling chantey". Unfortunately, he gives neither a date nor a source for this.

There seems to have been a fluid situation among some of the whalers, who took up slaving, and then turned to piracy, all in the thirty or forty years before the Civil War. As with so many cases, one would like to know what they were singing as they passed through these various career changes!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 11:00 AM

I very much doubt that any shanties were created in the slave trade. Britain outlawed it in 1807 and the United States in 1808, long before we have any evidence of shantying. If blockade runners sang shanties after that, they would presumably be the same shanties as others were singing.

The only shanty verse I can think of that appears to relate to slaving is the one about "black sheep that have run the embargo." But no complete shanty is devoted to the slave trade, and I don't know how widely sung even the "black sheep" verse was.

One could go "down the Congo River" for many things after 1808.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM

John-

I think you're on firm ground with "Blow Boys Blow" (aka Congo River and related to at least three other named shanties in DEEP THE WATER SHALLOW THE SHORE); it's also a work song that the stevedores used on the docks in Australia as they pressed bales of wool.

And here are some more notes on shanties derived from minstrel or plantation field songs:

Coal Black Rose

Round the Corner Sally (Round the Corn Sally)

Doodle Let Me Go

Miss Lucy Long

Gimme de Banjo

Hilo, Boys, Hilo

And I can't resist a note on "Hilo" which in some shanties is taken as a reference to a favorite port in Western South America but was in fact transcribed by one curious observor much earlier in this plantation field song:

Oh, this is the day to roll and go,
Hill-up, boys, hilo;
Oh, this is the day to roll and go,
Hill-up, boys, hilo!

It's also of interest that such "nautical" phrases as "roll and go" and "rock and roll" first appeared in the plantation field songs.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 07:14 AM

Lighter, thanks for the info on Hugill's source, Mr. Harding. I've wondered about his sources and I'm glad to have more information. Q, thanks for the history information on South Australia. I really didn't have that time frame in place at all. I didn't realize that the "Julia Ann" got there only 20 years after the first settlers! And that Pond was actually one of the first traders to haul stuff to and from there. And thanks for the link to "Old Mohee". Finding these links these days is difficult. And Charley, thanks for "Coal Black Rose". Along with Gibb's "Knock A Man Down", I'm now going in every direction. Good Stuff all the way around.

This morning I'm thinking about shanties that come from the African Slave Traders. Right off the bat I have to sort out the difference between shanties that might have been sung on board the Traders and a lot of songs sung by slaves in the Caribbean, such as "Shallow Brown", and in the Gulf Ports, as well as on the plantations - which are not the same as those coming from the minstrel sources, necessarily. While there seems to be quite a bit of material on slave songs going to sea, I can only think of one shanty that could be referring to the actual slave ships themselves, which is of course "Blow, Boys, Blow" from the "Guinea Slavers" (Hugill, pages 226-227/'61).

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 09:11 PM

Q-

Other than the first verse the minstrel version doesn't really overlap with the shanty versions. That is not particularly surprising. It's just an example of how a popular song inspires a shanty. I do have all the verses and a cover image from the sheet music for a minstrel version of Coal Black Rose if anyone is really interested.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 06:35 PM

"Coal Black Rose" was printed by several broadside publishers
in England, in addition to the 1829 and 1835 printings in the US (most undated).
An extanded version with 14 verses plus chorus was printed by Demimg in the US (nd). At American Memory.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 04:21 PM

Charley, that could well have been used as an early shanty. The minstrel song would have been adapted, most likely but not certainly, while it was still very popular, i.e. the early '30s.

John, Gibb: three 'Catters on one thread who know how to spell Charles Peirce's name? Wow.

Subject: Lyr Add: COAL BLACK ROSE
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:48 PM

Another way to date some shanties is with the date of a shore song they were based on, be it a minstrel song, a music hall song, or a broadside. My favorite case in point is "Coal Black Rose", a halyard shanty collected by both Hugill & Bullen:

From SHANTIES OF THE SEVEN SEAS

COAL BLACK ROSE

Oh, me Rosie, coal black rose
Don't ye hear the banjo
Ping-a-pong-a-pong?
On, me Rosie, Coal Black Rose!

Oh, me Rosie, coal black Rose,
Strung up like a banjo,
Allu taut an' long,
On, me Rosie, Coal Black Rose!

Oh, me Rosie, coal black Rose,
The yard is now a-movin',
Hauley-hauley ho!
On, me Rosie, Coal Black Rose!

The Mate he comes around, boys,
Dinging an' a dang.
Hauley-hauley ho!
On, me Rosie, Coal Black Rose!

Give her one more pull, boys,
Rock an' roll 'er high.
Hauley-hauley ho!
On, me Rosie, Coal Black Rose!

And the minstrel song:

Coal Black Rose. Sold wholesale by L. Deming, No. 62, Hanover Street 2d door from Friend Street, Boston, [circa 1829]

COAL BLACK ROSE.

Don't you hear de banjo--tum, tum, tum;
Lubly Rosa, Sambo cum,
Don't you hear de banjo--tum, tum, tum;

Oh, Rose, de coal black Rose,
I wish I may be corch'd if I don't lub Rose,
Oh, Rose, de coal blacka Rose.

Dat you, Sambo--yes I cum,
Don't you hear de banjo--tum, tum, tum;
Dat you, Sambo--yes I cum,
Don't you hear de banjo--tum, tum, tum;

Oh, Rose, &c.....

The earliest date we document two different people singing this song, George Washington Dixon and Thomas Blakeley, is 1829. The shanty version certainly didn't make much use of the story verses of the minstrel song but the first verse is similar and it wouldn't have been long after 1829 before some sailor took the song to sea and made a shanty of it.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:22 PM

oops! no link.
Rolling Down

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:18 PM

Another old version of "Rolling Down to Old Mohee," 1859 journal, in thread 33324 and DT: Rolling Down

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:07 PM

South Australian history (non-native) begins with the first shipload of settlers in 1836. It did not become important until later; the first mention of shipping from there is from c. 1850, when timber was sent out for the gold fields in New South Wales.
(Wiki and other online references).

Nine ships were involved in moving the first c. 650 settlers to South Australia (no convicts), I haven't found any songs about them.

Huntington, "Songs the Whalemen Sang" found many songs in ships logs and diaries. Some are sea songs from the the 1850s-1860s or earlier, but many were songs popular on land.

"Rolling Down to Old Mohee," Atkins Adams, out of New Bedford, 1856, is a great song and a great find by Huntington.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 01:15 PM

Styles in "pop" melodies changed much more slowly in the nineteenth century than the twentieth, and of course styles in "folk" melodies changed even more slowly than that.

I'm not sure how often one can rely on melody to help decide whether a shanty came into existence in 1840 or 1880. A simple melody could appear at almost any time.

Look at military "jodies." As far as we can tell, they started in World War II - maybe late in World War II - and the usual tune for the couplets is hardly more than a chant. That simple tune, by the way, with seemingly improvised verses, appears pretty much in Lomax & Lomax "Our Singing Country" (1940) as "The Marrowbone Itch." (You read it here first.)

Slightly OT: Hugill seems to have met Harding around 1932. If Harding was 70, he was still too young to have heard shanties before the late 1860s. The same is probably true of Hugill's other informants. I don't believe Hugill ever went into detail about the shanties his father knew, although his father was probably born later than Harding. Even in 1922, a seventy-year old man would have been just too young to have learned shanties at sea before the about 1860. The collapse of Alden's "1850s" versions into hearsay is really a shame, though I suppose his source(s) gave him reason to believe that that's when they were sung.

Our historical info on individual shanties before ca1860 is so limited as to allow all kinds of conjecture, pro or con. Absence of evidence is not proof of absence. As Hugill often says at various points, "We'll probably never know for certain."

The information we want is always a generation earlier than we have. (One reason why people become folklorists.)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:43 PM

I'm the one who can't write fast enough today. Gibb, our notes crossed. My last one had not seen your last one, but thanks. I think we're on the same page. I agree with the "double-edged" nature of experiential intuition, even though I would pretty much claim it as the basis for my life.   J.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:40 PM

Gibb, thanks for your thoughts on this. I had just come across the song in Abrahams last week and it has been rattlin' around in the back of my head. I, too, would suspect some kind of relationship with "South Australia", but my question would be does it precede "South Australia" or derive from it. This would also be my question with regard to the version from the Georgia Sea Islands in L. Parrish. Does Parrish's version go back to slave days?

With regard to "South Australia" being around in '53, I was taking a fairly literalistic point of view and saying that it would appear that the earliest written dating we can get for this shanty would be sometime between 1872 and 1874, from William Laurie (Doerflinger) and Harlow's "shipmate Dave". This is about twenty years or so later than the time of the "Julia Ann" (1853-55). There's nothing to say that it wasn't around twenty years earlier. And I would like to track down the "Heave away, Haul away, We're bound for California" song that Hugill mentions, which would probably move it back earlier. The other question is how much weight to put on Hugill's comment about "With the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869 and the new-fangled "tin-kettles" taking over the China tea trade, many of the clippers and the newly found Baines' Blackball line began to carve regular trade routes between the Mother Country and the Colonies. Apart from the capstan shanty "South Australia", no new work-songs were produced in these ships either,..."

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=135#2825383

You say, ""Was "South Australia" sung aboard the Julia Ann?" and "What chanteys could have been sung aboard the Julia Ann?" are questions that demand different focus and methodology. Your question, as I understand is the latter." I agree with you on focus and methodology and yes, my question is the latter "What chanteys could have been sung aboard the Julia Ann?"   And what I am looking for help with today is how to establish the "could" with as much historical foundation as the sources allow. Sources here include not only the written references to certain shanties, but the lyrical content of the shanties as they have come down to us. I agree with you when you say "However, based on their language, style, melody characteristics, and other historical info, they can be reasonably dated. I am saying this even as a natural skeptic. So I do appreciate the line of thinking that "these chanteys may not really be as old as we tend to think," but lack of references until later does not account for why they would have characteristics of earlier eras of song."

You ask "Is this the sort of thing you are asking, i.e. about alternative ways to "prove" besides this straight "literary mention" sort of thing?" My answer is "yes" although "prove" is probably too strong a word. And, "One can only capture the gestures, the tendencies, the examples or incidental realizations (what Peirce called sinsigns, I think) -- one can say "the kind of thing that was being done," not the thing that was done." Whoa! Yes! (Peirce yet!)

I'm not interested in "seeking to date the rise of chanteying "as we know it". My "measure of positive documentation" does not demand "their direct mention in a piece of writing". When I am talking about "oral traditions" I am very much including your idea of "performance" when you say "With performance --even talk of performance-- this notion of pinpointing an exact thing goes out the window. Because not only will future performances never match past performances, but also past performances never matched each other." Oral traditions include both the actual singing of the shanties, but also the telling of the stories about them and how they came down to us, as well as actually passing on sets of lyrics, dates, etc.

This thread is definitely a work in progress and I think I am with you on this, and I greatly appreciate the course corrections. Without being presumptuous, I feel a bit like Captain Pond might have felt when he took that earlier voyage on the "Julia Ann" down to Valparaiso as a passenger and began to learn about sailing. I hope this provides some clarification. This sums it up for me: "But the main question calls for more flexible methods, and certainly a more flexible way of viewing the nature of the chantey genre (not as pieces of repertoire but as a practice associated with common gestures)."

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:06 PM

Absolutely right about "Hugill and on back," John. Critique the hell out of them!

I do feel that there is something to be said about intuition that comes from experience, however. It is double-edged because it can lead to false assumptions as well as insight. I think that is the dynamic that characterizes Hugill's work in particular.

Gibb

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:55 AM

Thanks, Lighter. I appreciate your thoughts on this and I find them helpful. What you say makes sense to me and helps me get a better sense of the overall time period. Your statement that "we can be certain about the '60s and virtually certain about the '50s" is encouraging, and it helps to get those earliest witnesses that are recording their own experiences into that time frame. I think your suggestion that "it would point to the period around 1830 as the dawn of the shanty" is also helpful. And I appreciate the comment about the "advances in shipbuilding". I also am drawn to the "functional" perspective that you and Gibb have taken when you say, "Shanty singing was not a musical performance. It was just a way of getting work done." This sounds right to me and I would agree with it.

The question about "basing detailed conclusions on oral tradition, especially when we're so poorly able to evaluate that tradition" is really important. When I read Hugill, I feel like I am dealing with a lot of "oral" tradition that is being "handed on" by and through him. I respect him as an important and integral part of that tradition. That doesn't for a moment mean I won't question his suggestions. But my critical questions always recognize that he "was there" and a whole lot "closer" to the sources than I can even imagine. He is a part of those "direct" and not-so-direct lines of transmission. And then he commits his recollections of the oral traditions to writing. And these writings become "authoritative" and thus open to critical questioning. An important part of what I am thinking about is how to sort out some of the conclusions drawn by everyone from Hugill on back (and on forward), when there is not clear historical (written) evidence. And I know, that just because it was "written down" once upon a time doesn't necessarily mean that it was "accurate".

I've just checked this thread and there is an important post from Gibb that I haven't read yet, so this is not a response to his comments.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:42 AM

Back up with the sightings/citings of "South Australia" I forgot to mention the song in Abrahams' DEEP THE WATER..., called "We Are Bound Down South Alibama" (pg 110) sung by the whalers of Barouallie. It does not jump out readily as a variation of "South Australia," but I think there could be a distant relationship.

Incidentally, I am not following the logic of the conclusion that "South Australia" probably wasn't around in '53.

John, I am not entirely clear of your goals. Certainly the aim of what you eventually want to do or say will determine your methodology. If one is seeking to date the rise of chanteying "as we know it", painting broad strokes, then I think what Hugill, Doerflinger, etc. have said sounds very reasonable. If you look at all the discussions that have gone on (e.g. on Mudcat) about the advent of this or that chantey, you'll find that most are not *positively* documented during the period under discussion -- that is, if your measure of positive documentation demands their direct mention in a piece of writing. However, based on their language, style, melody characteristics, and other historical info, they can be reasonably dated. I am saying this even as a natural skeptic. So I do appreciate the line of thinking that "these chanteys may not really be as old as we tend to think," but lack of references until later does not account for why they would have characteristics of earlier eras of song.

So if, for example, the goal is to produce some proof in the form of a literary reference that "Clear the Track Let the Bulgine Run" was being sung at a date before 1853, then you won't have it. There is no smoking gun. But there are many other pieces of evidence you could present to the jury to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was around by the 1840s. Is this the sort of thing you are asking, i.e. about alternative ways to "prove" besides this straight "literary mention" sort of thing?

If the goal is to perform or to suggest (e.g. in a re-enactment) what was "probably sung" on the voyage, then you really have a lot of pieces at your disposal. With performance --even talk of performance-- this notion of pinpointing an exact thing goes out the window. Because not only will future performances never match past performances, but also past performances never matched each other. One can only capture the gestures, the tendencies, the examples or incidental realizations (what Peirce called sinsigns, I think) -- one can say "the kind of thing that was being done," not the thing that was done.

"Was "South Australia" sung aboard the Julia Ann?" and "What chanteys could have been sung aboard the Julia Ann?" are questions that demand different focus and methodology. Your question, as I understand is the latter. The former question is a great one to ask as part of the process of getting there,as it inspires this literature scan (a necessary step). But the main question calls for more flexible methods, and certainly a more flexible way of viewing the nature of the chantey genre (not as pieces of repertoire but as a practice associated with common gestures). How confusing is that? Feel free to call out my Gibberish.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 10:29 AM

John, I think you are well on track, but I'm dubious about basing detailed conclusions on oral tradition, especially when we're so poorly able to evaluate that tradition.

We know that shantying as so many writers have described it over the past nearly 150 years was the usual practice in British and American merchant sail by the time of the Civil War. Whall and Robinson both went to sea in 1859-60 and reported years later that shantying was then common. The 1868 shantying article confirms that shantying was widespread in the 1860s.

The oldest sailor singers recorded by Carpenter went to sea in the 1850s. AFAIK, none of them suggested that shantying was a new development that took off later.

So we can be certain about the '60s and virtually certain about the '50s.

Things get murkier earlier than that because of the dearth of sources. The few sources that we have give a handful of titles, and a surprising number of these (in Dana) are no longer identifiable.

This suggests to me (and I assume to writers like Colcord, Doerflinger, and Hugill) that most of the best known folk-revival shanties either had not appeared by, say, 1849, or else had not yet circulated widely. Since they have such good tunes and so many shantymen were at work, it would surprise me if they hadn't spread relatively quickly once they came into existence.

It also suggests to me (though the evidence is extremely thin) that there were far fewer "established" shanties in Dana's day. In other words, singers were creating shanties, but individual repertoires were not widely shared and the tunes had not often become so melodic as to spread rapidly or be remarked on by writers. If that were true, it would point to the period around 1830 as the dawn of the shanty. The advances in shipbuilding in the 1820s that many writers have cited as a major influence on the rise of shantying fits well with these educated guesses. (Though they're still just educated guesses.)

It's mainly wishful thinking, IMO, to assume that there was a very long tradition of shanty making in English before writers began to comment on it in the 1830s. Admittedly there were fewer writers then than now, but my guess is that if early shanties had truly memorable tunes (like "Highland Laddie") they would have attracted more attention. Remember that Dana mentions them because, unlike most writers, he had actually sung them at work. They were impossible for him to ignore!

When it comes down to the time when specific shanties became common, I'm afraid the limited number of contemporary mentions leaves us mostly in the dark. (We know even less about which now "indispensible" lyrics were sung.) The limited evidence shows that most of the best shanties were well known by the time Harlow went to sea (on his single voyage) in 1876-77 and a good many of them at least ten years before that.

I concur with Gibb and with Bullen that except for the very few strongly narrative shanties, after the first stanza or two anything could be sung, though I'd imagine that individual shantymen often fell into the patterns they were used to. The overwhelming evidence that solo lines were more commonly repeated than paired up (which is not ncessary to hold a work gang's attention) suggests just how common unrhymed improvisation could be. Shanty singing was not a musical performance. It was just a way of getting work done.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 10:11 AM

To over-clarify the question: What songs *could* have been current in 1853-1855, and where did the come from? It's the "where did the come from" that has to do with the questions of historical dating and geographical origin.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 09:59 AM

This morning I have been trying to imagine the scope of this project. Right now the wide screen is falling off the horizons! But, undaunted, looking back from 1855 when the "Julia Ann" ran aground on that coral reef, what are some of the larger areas of influence on the sea shanties that may have existed then?   Here is a very broad and partial list that occurs to me at the moment. These may or may not be in exact historical order and of course there are major overlaps.

1. The SLAVE TRADERS, which lasted for hundreds of years. I'm thinking primarily of the shipping of Black Africans to the Americas. But this also involves the shipping of molasses to New England and rum from there, at least in one historical phase of the slave trades.

2. This brings to mind the whole business of PIRATES. It is interesting to me that both the slavers and the pirates tend to be earlier than I realized, perhaps mostly before the 19th century(?).

3. Then there are the EAST INDIA TRADERS, which are also earlier, ending, as I understand it in the early part of the 19th century. And I think along with them would have been the CHINA TRADERS.

4. The WHALERS also have a long history running right on through the 19th century.

5. I think it is also important to include WARS, such as the "War of American Independence" (and also "The War of 1812" [I'm writing from an American perspective]), the Napoleonic Wars (and perhaps the earlier French/English Wars), and later in the 19th century (prior to 1850) the "Mexican War".

6. And, forgive me, if necessary, for lumping all of these categories together for the moment, the SHORE SONGS, such as ballads, broadside songs, and popular stage songs. This would also include the Minstrel sources.

7. SLAVE songs and Black work songs

8. And shore based WORK SONGS from other ethnic groups, such as the Irish song "Paddy Works On the Railway".

So far, almost all of these categories pre-date the 19th century and spill over into it. What are the shanties that come from these areas of influence that *could* have been current by 1850? Let this be a rhetorical question for the moment. In the first half of the 19th century, I can think of the following:

9. The PACKET TRADE across the Western Ocean. This raises the larger category of the EMIGRANTS, and the DEPORTEES, not only going to the Americas, but also to Australia.

10. The COTTON TRADERS from the Gulf Ports.

11. The TIMBER TRADERS from both the North and the South, and later the Northwest.

12. What I would call all of the CAPE HORN traffic.

13. The California GOLD RUSH, and also the Australian GOLD RUSH.

14. The CHINA TRADE, and the AUSTRALIAN TRADERS, from the West Coast of America.

15. The SOUTH AMERICAN TRADERS

I suspect that we have songs from all of these sources, in the oral traditions. And I suspect we can and have identified them by "internal evidence", from references within the songs themselves. However, a critical question is how do we judge whether such a reference within the lyrics of a song actually goes back to the time that it mentions? Does "Boney" really go back to the time of Napoleon, or is it looking back on that time from a later viewpoint, and if so, how much later, and can we tell. The same could be asked about "Santianna".

Early on in this thread, MtheGM suggested in answer to my question "They could surely have been any mentioned by Hugill as being sung at that time". And basically that is true. But I would like to review at least some of this and try to bring it into a somewhat sharper focus. As large a scope as this seems, it is historically finite, and perhaps manageable.

And, have we exhausted the earliest written sources?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 08:09 AM

What sea shanties were in existence in 1853? I am assuming that if they were in existence anywhere in the world, then they *could* just as well have been found in the port of San Francisco in the 1850s. Stan Hugill, in his 1969 book, SHANTIES AND SAILORS' SONGS (page 45), says that,

"In fact the great constructive period of the shanty is now agreed to have been between the 1820s and the 1850s,..."

And, on page 48, he says,

"...before the 1850's neither shanties nor forebitters were mentioned as such in         the nautical literature of the day."

Then he goes on to document the few exceptions which we have been looking at in some detail.

It is safe to assume that a number of shanties did not come into until later in 19th century (1860-1880), and that many of the earlier ones continued to evolve in both content and use throughout that century. It seems to me that it should be relatively possible to sort out these later shanties, and I'm sure that this has been done. We've suggested that "South Australia", in the forms that we know it, comes from the second half of the century.

So, theoretically, that leaves a vast number of earlier shanties for the period from 1800-1860. I'm new at all of this and if you will excuse the irony, I often feel totally at sea. I have a tremendous respect for the reality and significance of "oral traditions". And I have a equal respect for the need to do what I call "historical-critical" research on these traditions and to try to date them when possible. I am also fascinated by how one derives historical information from received oral traditions. So, we sing a song today that we know is "old", coming to us out of almost 200 years of oral tradition. Perhaps it finally got written down by someone in the 1880s and was collected in several versions from around the world in the forty years after that and finally ended up in Hugill's SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS. He says it comes from such and such an era, say that of the packet ships. He knows this by oral tradition and by "internal evidence". Because in most cases there does not seem to be any external evidence.

Am I on track here? Is this the correct nature of our situation? Sea shanties are certainly not the only area of historical research where this process is under investigation, and I don't see that this search is unique. I just want to make sure that I am not missing something important.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 12:18 PM

Thanks, John, for that Ruschenberger! I had not seen that before.

BTW, earlier I was not correcting you about the use for Fire Maringo, just stating my impression. Stowing cotton was an "intermittent" action like hauling, and unlike walking around the capstan. However, in later days (or at least how we understand it now), Hieland Laddie is a capstan or walk-away, having the grand chorus. The cotton screwing references don't offer a grand chorus; even if they did, I don't think there'd be any problem in fitting the intermittent action to that chorus.

I see little difference between "Hieland Laddie" and "Donkey Riding." One just swaps the phrase there in the chorus. It would mainly be relevant whether the "donkey riding" phrase had developed yet in the time period under question. Nonetheless, later citations of Donkey Riding, I'd think, are in a way "heirs to the legacy" of Hieland Laddie.

Hieland Laddie has a special place in my heart. To me, it is the archetypal chantey.

I have explained elsewhere what I think to have been the nature of the genre "chantey" (chant, chanty) in those times, so here I won't be as articulate of as detailed. But basically my impression is that these cotton-stowing chants and the sea-based chanteys that developed directly from them were a genre with characteristics and a scope that was much more distinct (limited?) than what we now call "chantey." This is because, while they shared certain characteristics/forms, once they were adopted by others to serve a function, that function became the main criterion. The many more songs and rhymes, drawn from various sources and having different characteristics, were put to work at that function and also subsumed under the "chantey" category.

But the stuff that was first called "chanty" IMO had more discreet characteristics. One of these was the style of couplets that were used as verses. One style was the biographical theme shared by "Stormalong", "Santa Anna," "General Taylor," and "Fire Maringo." Another was the device of naming places as in "Hieland Laddie"/Donkey Riding, "Tom's Gone to Hilo", etc. I don't view the verses like "Was you ever in Quebec" as part of any song; I don't think they give Hieland Laddie its identity, and by the same token, it is a weak basis for tracing this or that song to another. Nor do I think, on the other hand, that these are "floating verses." It is a device that *is* the chantey genre as it was then...just something that was done. In other words, these sort of verses were a characteristic of the genre as a whole, not of any particular pieces.

As an example, the "turned around" phrase could be part of "Blow the Man Down," in its supposed earlier form of "Knock a Man Down," as here-- my attempt of realizing the 1850s version described by Adams in ON BOARD THE ROCKET:

Knock a Man Down

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM

I've been focusing some research at the Australia end with regard to stevedore shanties. The Australian poet Edwin J. Brady was working as a tally clerk on the Sydney docks in the 1890s and was fascinated by the work chants of the screw-jack crews as they were jamming in bales of wool or cotton into the holds of ships. Here's an example from one of his poems "Laying on the Screw":

They will raise a chanty forrard of the stevedorin' kind:

''I'm goin' down to Tennessee,
Oh, take my love and come with me;"
Or, it's "Cheer up, Mrs. Riley," or "Blow, my Bully Boys, Blow"

There's also a reference to "Bully in the Alley" in another poem titled "Lost and Given Over," and a wonderful unique chant of "Re-a ri-a rally!" which appears in several poems.

Perhaps some of our Australian friends are aware of earlier research or notes of what might be happening on the docks. I'm planning to ask members of the Sydney based sea music group The Roaring Forties and our good friend Danny Spooner in Victoria if they are aware of any early documentation of work chants.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:09 AM

Any reference to shantying before the 1860s is valuable, and the discovery of an actual fragment from 1835-38 especially so.

"Highland Laddie" does not appear in the first edition of Davis & Tozer, but it does in the third. I have never seen Edition 2.

D & T's publication dates are uncertain. The likely dates (based on the British Library record, information in WorldCat, and D & T's prefaces) seem to be 1886 or '87 for the first edition, 1888 for the second, and some time in the very early '90s for the third.

The tune of D & T's "Highland Laddie" differs a little from the usual. The words have nothing to do with ports, however. They narrate instead the laddie's whaling career.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 10:31 AM

I now want to turn to the last of the four cotton-screwing "chants" that Nordoff probably heard in Mobile, Alabama, sometime between 1845 and 1853. It is "Highland Laddie". You will find it on page 42 of his book THE MERCHANT VESSEL (1856):

http://books.google.com/books?id=MKoPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA42&dq=Were+you+ever+in+Quebec,+Bonnie+Laddie+Charles+Nordhoff,+The+Merchant+V

I know that this shanty probably comes from or is based on an old Scottish song and tune of the same name. That is beyond my area of knowledge and concern. Check this thread for more information on that:

thread.cfm?threadid=54643#2814365

I am interested in its use as a shanty in the first half of the 19th century. I am also aware that there is a variant called "Donkey Riding".   The song that Nordhoff quotes seems to be the basic shanty itself, but in his case it is being used to stow/screw cotton.

I might as well go ahead and mention Erskine again in this context since he also presents a version of "Highland Laddie" in his book TWENTY YEARS BEFORE THE MAST (1896 - was he trying to outdo Dana?), page 297. Again, I am estimating that this event, which supposedly happened in New Orleans, took place in the fall of 1845.

http://books.google.com/books?id=61tHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA297&dq=Was+you+ever+in+Quebec,+Bonny+Laddie,Highland+Laddie&cd=1#v=onepage&q=

Erskine also presents "Highland Laddie" in the context of screwing cotton. In a book entitled A VOYAGE ROUND THE WORLD; INCLUDING AN EMBASSY TO MUSCAT AND SIAM IN 1835, 1836, AND 1837, published in 1838, a W.S.W. Ruschenberger, M.D. mentions "Highland Laddie" as a sea shanty:

http://books.google.com/books?id=X43QMow1drcC&pg=PA59&dq=Bonnie+Laddie,Highland+Laddie&lr=&cd=200#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Dr. Ruschenberger's voyage was aboard the "U.S. Ship Peacock, commanded by C.K. Stribling, Esq." (from opening page called "Advertisement"). On Tuesday, the 22nd of September, 1835, "on the island Mazzeira, which, according to the charts, lies about ten miles from the coast of Happy Arabia..." (p.56) (the ship had run aground and the crew was lightening the load trying to get her free), Dr. R. says "When she moved more easily, those at the capstan sang, to the tune of "The Highland Laddie,"

        "I wish I were in New York town,
        Bonny Laddie, Highland Laddie," &c." (p. 59)

It is interesting that the initial phrase is turned around and made a statement rather than the more familiar question of "Were you ever in...."

I've not come across any other earlier references prior to 1853 so far. To sum up this early material, we have the following:

   Dr. Ruschenberger in September of 1835
   Charles Erskine in 1845, maybe
   Charles Nordhoff sometime between 1845 and 1853.

This shanty is found in SAILORS SONGS OR 'CHANTIES'" (188?) Frederick J. Davis R. N. R. , with music by Ferris Tozer. (I don't have access to this). It is in Colcord (first pub. 1924) and in Doerflinger (1951), who has it from Captain James P. Barker, who went to sea in 1889. These three sources seem to indicate that it was known in the latter part of the 19th century. Hugill has two versions, one of which is from Bosun Chenoworth, a Dundee whaler, and the other one from the timber droghers, but with no mention of a specific source. He also has a version of "Donkey Riding" but with no source.

I find it interesting that "Highland Laddie" does *not* appear in so many of the standard collections, and for being such a "popular" shanty, there's not a lot of written notice of it in the 19th century.   Did it fall out of favor, or did "Donkey Riding" replace it, or was it always there in the oral tradition?" Speaking of which, here is Gibb Sahib's rendition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t425KzdvrXo&feature=PlayList&p=58B55DD66F22060C&index=53

I think that "Highland Laddie" is a good candidate for a shanty that *could* have been sung of board the "Julia Ann" on her voyages from San Francisco to Sydney in 1853-1855.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 07:05 AM

I appreciate all of the careful thinking about "Fire Maringo". It does seem as though someone is referring to someone without footnotes! The one seemingly solid piece seems to be that of Gosse. While Nordhoff has been generally accepted as the final word, all of his publicating and re-publicating gets very confusing. And he is unnecessarily vague with his dating. (I'm beginning to sound like a teenage romance novel!) However, I have had the same problem with Captain Pond's memoirs. Because his log book for the "Julia Ann" was lost, he is basing his accounts of these voyages on his memory and he is writing in 1895, which is forty years after the events (except for his account of the wreck and the rescue, which were written very soon after the events described). He, too, is often either vague on dates or leaves them out entirely. Fortunately, there are enough surviving independent historical records to reconstruct most of the facts of his voyages with regard to dates. If there was only something equivalent with regard to shanties! But there is not and we remain in the area of speculation and "historical coulds".

Gibb, thanks for correcting my nautical ignorance with regard to the use for "Fire Maringo". I'd like to think that it might have served as a halliards shanty on the "Julia Ann". Does anyone know of any reference to this song after/later than Nordhoff?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 09:34 PM

I should have said "Gosse" not Erskine. I read Erskine's book long ago so do not recall much about it. The picture of the author in 1842 suggests that the account, copyright 1890, is generally authentic. A faker in 1890 would be unlikely to fake a daguerrotype of himself as a youngster simply to support his account. Why bother? Few would question it anyway.

FWIW, Nathaniel Philbrick accepts Erskine's book as genuine in his "Sea of Glory" (2002).

Without committing myself on the book as a whole, it wouldn't be too surprising if Nordhoff and Gosse's accounts had not refreshed Erskine's memory of something he'd heard long before - or thought he could have heard.

However, it would be wise not to assume that Erskine's account of the songs is independent testimony.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 09:04 PM

John,
I imagine the cotton screwing chants were more like halyard chanteys.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:55 PM

The Erskine text is irksome. I am confused. Is it possibly a fake account? It really does smack of a combination of what Gosse and Nordhoff wrote, and to which he would have had access. The similarities are just too scary for me.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:49 PM

Lighter -- try "Stormalong"

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:42 PM

Erskine's verse on "General Jackson" obviously foreshadows the common opening stanza of "Santa Anna."

The tune requires some slight adjustiment to fit.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 06:55 PM

I'm looking for sea shanties that *could* have been historically sung on board the bark "Julia Ann" on her three and a half voyages from San Francisco to Sydney between 1853 and 1855. I'm especially interested in shanties that have some historical documentation for the period prior to 1853. And I am willing to consider ones mentioned for ten years or so after 1855, especially if they refer back to an earlier period.

Such is the case for Charles Nordhoff and his book THE MERCHANT VESSEL, published in 1856 (for some reason I said 1857 above). I was not able to figure the exact dates for his voyages, but they took place sometime prior to 1856, which gives them overlap with the timeframe for the "Julia Ann". Gibb Sahib, in this post to another thread says that it was sometime between 1845 and 1853 when Nordhoff was at sea. This would be a perfect timeframe to coincide with that of the "Julia Ann".

thread.cfm?threadid=63103#2566821

In his book, Nordhoff discusses being in Mobile and gives us four "chants" that were used for "screwing cotton". We've already looked at "Stormalong" and "Yankee Dollar". Now I want to look at "Fire Maringo", which is his third "chant". You will find it here on page 42:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MKoPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA42&dq=%22Fire+maringo,+fire+away%22&cd=2#v=onepage&q=%22Fire%20maringo%2C%20f

I think that there are two earlier references to this shanty. There is a book by Charles Erskine entitled TWENTY YEARS BEFORE THE MAST - WITH THE MORE THRILLING SCENES AND INCIDENTS WHILE CIRCUMNAVIGATING THE GLOBE UNDER THE COMMAND OF THE LATE ADMIRAL CHARLES WILKES 1838-1842. This book was not published until 1896, but it would seem to record events that happened much earlier. Erskine is in New Orleans on board the ship "Charles Carol". I think that this was sometime in September of 1845 (scroll back up several pages until you come to Erskine's departure from New York and there you will find a date - I realize there is a discrepancy between the title and this date). He gives two cotton-screwing songs: "Bonnie Laddie" and "Fire Maringo". The overlap with Nordhoff is interesting.

http://books.google.com/books?id=61tHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA297&dq=%22Lift+him+up+and+carry+him+along%22&lr=&cd=2#v=onepage&q=%22Lift%20h

What is even more interesting is that his words are exactly the same as Nordhoff's, except that Erskine has one additional verse at the very end:

        In New Orleans they say,
        Fire, maringo, fire away,
        That General Jackson's gained the day,
        Fire, maringo, fire away!

This would seem to be a reference to Andy Jackson's victory at the "Battle of New Orleans" in the war of 1812, which doesn't necessarily mean that the shanty goes back to that period. By the way, Erskine's words for "Highland Laddie" are not the same as those found in Nordhoff.

And here is another early reference, that can be dated as December 31,1838. Phillip Henry Gosse, in his LETTERS FROM ALABAMA (1859), also mentions the cotton-screwing shanty, "Fire the ringo" (page 305-306, at the very end of his book):

http://books.google.com/books?id=nmIVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA305&dq=%22I+think+I+hear+the+black+cock+say,&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22I%20thin

This is a different version from both Nordhoff and Erskine. He does mention the verse that Erskine has above although he reverses the lines:

        "Gin'ral Jackson gain'd the day;
        Fire the ringo, &c.
        At New Orleans he won the day;
        Fire the ringo, fire away!"

Here is some excellent discussion of Gosse by Gibb Sahib in another thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=63103#2566474

And here is reference to an article on Gosse:

http://www.euppublishing.com/doi/abs/10.3366/E0260954108000430

I have been going back in history with these sources. Here is how I see them.
        1. Gosse, December 31, 1838 off of the "low shore of Mobile Point"
        2. Erskine, September, 1845 in New Orleans
        3. Nordhoff, between 1845 and 1853 in Mobile

None of these sources offer us a tune. The tune heard today is quite good, but of recent composition. But I think it is obvious that all three of these sources are talking about the same song. And they all predate the voyages of the "Julia Ann". I realize that "Fire the Ringo/Fire Maringo" is not presented as a deep sea shanty in any of these sources, but as a cotton-screwing shanty. But we know that other cotton-screwing shanties went to sea, so why not this one?

Has anybody found a reference to this song after Nordhoff? Unless we could find some evidence that this song "went to sea", I'm not sure what relevance a "cotton-screwing" song would have on a voyage from San Francisco to Sydney. However, it is a song used at a capstan, if I understand the business of cotton-screwing at all, so theoretically it could have been used at sea.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 03:20 PM

Here's a link to Laura Smith's MUSIC OF THE WATERS, 1888, mentioned above; it's certainly the first attempt to provide a comprehensive list of shanties from all over the world: click here for on-line book

Amazing that one can find such books on-line.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 02:43 PM

Gibb, good to have you in this discussion. I was hoping somebody might bring up the "Codfish Shanty". I wore myself out before I got there! I haven't looked, but is there any solid evidence that it is a variant of the other "South Australia"? It feels like a different song to me.    Thanks for filling in the Saunders material, and for the comments on the Parrish material. And Q, thanks for the additional material from Parrish. Charley, I wasn't able to confirm (or disconfirm) Lloyd's comment that L. Smith got her version in the *early* 1880s. It seemed like a bit of elaboration on his part, since she doesn't say anything about "early". Lighter, I appreciate your question about Ted Howard. I did do some searching on him but didn't find anything.   

Hopping back up to "Yankee Dollar", Hugill does mention it, right where you would expect him to, in his discussion of Nordhoff, on page 16. This has to be one of the shortest comments in his book: "The tune of this shanty is unfortunately lost; it seems to be of Negro origin."

He doesn't do much more with "Fire, Maringo, Fire Away", the third shanty mentioned by Nordhoff, which I want to take up next.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 02:19 PM

Parrish, Slave Songs of the Georgia Sea Islands, gives no information about "Haul Away, I'm a Rollin' King."

She does discuss some terms she heard from laborers, stevedores and sailors which may be new to some of us.

Roll ballast- stones which the windjammers came loaded with were landed on a temporary dock, and rolled in wheelbarrows to waste land. There are islands of ballast between St. Simon's and Brunswick.

Ocone (river) boxes- monstrous square boxes, made with rough planks; cotton is piled on them to keep it dry.

wing-tier- means just what the word implies [?]

kelson knees- a line of timber placed inside a ship along the floor timbers and parallel with the keel (see OED).

beam-dog- a grappling iron with a fang which clutches the log or piece of timber to be handled.

Block and tickle- block and tackle.

Narrow trunkin'- method of stowing timber. Learned from Irish stevedores.

Loading a vessel- "The head stevedore was a white man who contracted to load a vessel for so much per thousand feet. Big ships employed four colored stevedores called headers and used derricks; schooners needed only three headers- one outside and two inside ["headers were the stevedores responsible for the proper loading of a vessel"- Colcord]. Short lumber went into the hatch, but for long lumber, you had to "knock out the port," which was generally in the bow.
"In stowing cotton, ..... the bale was lowered into the hold in a sling with three hooks attached, something like an ice-hook with an extra prong. Then it was rammed tightly into place .... by a "snilo"- a post against which the cotton jack was placed.
"Pullin' lumber meant shoving it on a long greased skid, waist-high, made up of a series of carpenter's horses. There were generally four men at one end, and the same number at the other."

Driver- The important Negro slave whose task was to see that the orders of the white overseer were carried out. [Later replaced by the term 'Cap'n'].

Some of these terms may appear in chanteys and other work songs.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 01:46 PM

Thanks, John, for the excellent historiography of "South Australia."

I'll just add a couple bits.

I do have this article:
1928         Saunders, William. "Sailor Songs and Songs of the Sea." Musical Quarterly 24(3):339-357.

He cites The related/variant chantey with the Cape Cod girls theme. Here's the passage:

"I have only recently also received from America a similar composition which, although
employed as a shanty by the Cod Fishers of Newfoundland, with
whom it is a prime favourite, is likewise more of a folk-song than
a true shanty:—

Cape Cod girls they have no combs,
Heave away, Heave away,
They comb their hair with codfish bones,
We are bound for Australia.
Heave away, my bully, bully boys,
Heave away, Heave away,
Heave away, and don't you make a noise,
We are bound for Australia

Cape Cod boys, they have no sleds,
Heave away, Heave away,
They slide down hill on codfish heads,
We are bound for Australia. "

Note: "folk songs of the sea" is Saunders' term for what we might call forebitters.

Parrish (1942) has this version, pg 220:

Haul away, I'm a rollin' king
haul away, haul away
I'm boun' for South Australia.
Yonder come a flounder flat on the groun'
haul away, haul away
I'm boun' for South Australia.
Belly to the groun' an' back to the sun
haul away, haul away
I'm boun' for South Australia.
Ain' but one thing worry me
haul away, haul away
I'm boun' for South Australia
I leave my wife in Tennessee
haul away, haul away
I'm boun' for South Australia
Haul away, I'm a rollin' king
haul away, haul away
I'm boun' for South Australia

It seems like there was no grand chorus, which is about right if the stevedores were using it for hauling. Also note the pure use of "haul away". And while we're there, notice the pure use of "heave away" in LA Smith's, Harlow's and Saunders' versions. The mix of heave and haul -- possibly because the task was pumping -- seems to first show up in Doerflinger's Laurie. Lloyd's version would seem to have popularized heave/haul, but I can't say whether he heard that from his oral source or was influenced by Doerflinger -- a text he is known to have used as part of making up his renditions.

To my mind, Colcord's 1924 version *must* be copied out of LA Smith. (And I always like to remind how much of Smith's work was plagiarized from the 1882 article, suggesting that even more of it was "culled" from other sources.) And I would not be surprised if Saunders culled his Codfish version "recently received from America" from Colcord -- either that, or the song was very well standardized around that time. Hugill's text version of South Australia/Rolling King looks to be a mash of all the sources he'd *read*, if not also what he used to sing/hear.

Note also that the tune of Harlow's South Australia is very similar to Smith/Colcord, though clearly from an independent source....and this tune has some significant difference to the well-known tune today. In fact, Doerflinger's and Hugill's text versions are also closer to the others' tune, not today's. Today's no doubt come again from -- no surprise -- Lloyd & Co., fine purveyors of contrived ditties. Most disappointingly, in his later recorded performances, Hugill seems to adjusted to the new revival version in terms of tune and chorus; he spiced up his versions with some of the saltier verses, however.

When I have sung this in the past, it has also been a mash up of what I've read/heard. So a small disclaimer: when I did it for the YouTube project, at that particular point, I was not so concerned (as I was later) with realizing Hugill's *text* version to a T.

Gibb

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 12:46 PM

A. L. Lloyd also recorded "South Australia" on TEN THOUSAND MILES AWAY, as re-released as a CD by Fellside Recordings in 2008; the original recordings were made in the 1950's. The notes to the songs are by A. L. Lloyd as edited and revised by Paul Adams. The version is again attributed to Ted Howard of Berry in South Wales. The earliest written reference to the song that Lyoyd could find was a 14-stanza version transcribed by Laura Smith from "a black seaman in the Sailor's Home in Newcastle upon Tyne , in the early 1880's." Smith published the song in MUSIC OF THE WATER. Again there is no claim that the song was peculiar to the Australia run, or how much older the sung was. It appears to be one of the few sea songs that was sung both as a shanty and a forebitter.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 11:26 AM

John-

Nice summary! So you've been researching South Australia since at least 2002.

Hey, I tried to nail it with a somewhat tenuous thread to the minstrel song. It's the best I could come up with.

I do wonder what the source of such other Australian verses is such as:

I wish I was on Australia's strand...
With a bottle of whiskey in each hand...

Australia is a very fine place...
To get blind drunk's no disgrace...

Australia is a very fine land...
Full of spiders, fleas, and sand...

I don't find these verses listed in any of the volumes listed above. Maybe I channeled them from a shipload of drunken prospectors on their way to or from Australia in 1850!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 11:24 AM

Lloyd's notes to _Blow Boys Blow_ say Howard from "South Wales," UK, not New South Wales, Australia. OTOH, "South Australia" was supposed to enable him to "die happy." Yet the village of Barry in *New* South Wales (named in 1890, evidently) has fewer than 300 inhabitants (acc. to Wikipedia, that is).

Given what we've discovered about Lloyd's fudging of sources, do we have any corroboration that "Ted Howard of Barry" was a real person?

Re Nancy Blair: Lloyd's stanzas about "up and down" and "all night and...all day" are comparable to those found in the bawdy song, "Three German Officers." Probably not a coincidence, but the significance is unknown.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM

Re "Nancy Blair." Probably not a pure coincidence, because the name is not especially common. OTOH, it may have circulated simply as a convenient rhyme. Q is correct that there is no other visible connection between the shanty and the song.

Found three more versions of "Away, Rio!" None mention Portuguese girls.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:37 AM

When I was a young man, one of the first sea shanties I heard and really liked was "South Australia". This was from The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem. It was a great song. It still is. Later I heard it from A.L. Lloyd and Ewan MacColl. Interesting but not nearly as exciting. And later yet, when I was reaching my maturity, I heard the master, himself (on a recording) sing it. I enjoyed Stan Hugill's rendition very much and began to realize what this shantey might have actually sounded like once upon a time. Since then I've heard numerous other versions. I still really like this song.

And it seemed like a natural choice for the voyages of the "Julia Ann". I wanted it to be there. But I am having some serious second thoughts. And I really appreciate Charley's help and his efforts to get it back to the 1850s! But, so far as I can tell, the fact is that the earliest written account of it comes from Laura Smith's MUSIC OF THE WATERS, (1888) page 49-50. She says that she got it from a "coloured seaman at the "Home":

http://books.google.com/books?id=jEALAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA49&dq=%22Heave+away+you+ruller+kings%22&cd=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Although not published until 2004, Frederik Pease Harlow's CHANTEYING ABOARD AMERICAN SHIPS contains his accounts of "chanteying" aboard the "Akbar" in 1875. This would place his version of "South Australia", on pages 33-35, thirteen years earlier than that of Laura Smith in1888 (but still 20 years after the time of the "Julia Ann"). In his book THE MAKING OF A SAILOR, OR SEA LIFE ABOARD A YANKEE SQUARE-RIGGER (?) Harlow mentions a shipmate named Dave who claims to have sung "South Australia" on board the clipper ship "Thermopylae" in 1874 (p. 220):

http://books.google.com/books?id=maCNIgbmJMgC&pg=PA220&dq=the+clipper+ship+Thermopylae&lr=&cd=77#v=onepage&q=the%20clipper%20shi


The next we see and hear of "South Australia" as far as I can tell is from Joanna Colcord in her ROLL AND GO - SONGS OF THE AMERICAN SAILORMEN (1924). On page 86 of the 1964 edition, she has "Rolling King" and she speculates that it "probably belongs to the days of the British wool-clippers, which ran between London and Melbourne or Sydney." But she gives no documentation for this statement.

There is an article by William Saunders entitled "Folk Songs of the Sea" in MUSICAL OPINION AND MUSIC TRADE REVIEW, London, July, 1927, p. 985, that I have not seen but that apparently gives a version of "South Australia".

The next mention, as far as I know, is in William Doerflinger's SONGS OF THE SAILOR AND LUMBERMAN (first published in 1951 as SHANTYMEN AND SHANTYBOYS) 1990, p.70-71, where he gives a version from the singing of William Laurie of Sailor's Snug Harbor. Laurie began sailing at the age of 14, sometime between 1872 and 1874. Doerflinger speculates that this shanty "originated, probably, in the British emigrant ships that ran out to Melbourne and Sydney, Australia, carrying their hundreds of homesick colonists halfway round the globe to less crowded lands beneath the Southern Cross."

And then we come to Stan Hugill in his 1961 SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS, p. 193-196, where he gives us his own version and then the versions from Harlow and Doerflinger. He does not say where his first version comes from. He speculates that this "is a shanty which probably made its appearance during the emigrant days, when thousands travelled by sailing ship to Semaphore Roads, Port Adelaide, South Australia."

In his book SHANTIES AND SAILORS SONGS (1969) p. 59, Hugill says the following:

"Gold was found in Australia in 1851-53, [just prior to the sailing of the "Julia Ann"] but until an agricultural peace fell on that up-to-then wild country of convicts and bush-rangers, no regular shipping companies supplied the needs of the people of the "Colonies" as sailors called Australia. The ships of Green and Dunbar, however, made occasional passages out to Sydney in between Oriental voyages. With the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869 and the new-fangled "tin-kettles" taking over the China tea trade, many of the clippers and the newly found Baines' Blackball line began to carve regular trade routes between the Mother Country and the Colonies. Apart from the capstan shanty "South Australia", no new work-songs were produced in these ships either, and many authorities feel that even this song, more than likely, started life in the days of the California gold rush, since versions are to be found giving:
   
   Heave away, haul away!
   And we're bound for California!

This brings us up to the late 1860s and early 70s,...." (page 59)

Hugill seems to be suggesting in this paragraph that "South Australia" originated during the '60s and '70s on board the clipper ships. I have not been able to locate gold rush song he quotes above. That would be an important link.

Finally, we come to A.L. Lloyd and his seaman, Ted Howard of Barry, New South Wales. It's not exactly clear whether the version that Lloyd recorded in 1958 on "Across the Western Plains" is the same as Mr. Howard's version or not. Later, Lloyd was joined by Ewan MacColl on "Blow Boys Blow", and it seems that some variation of that recording was the basis for the one by the Clancys and T. Makem, etc. There may be some additional information out there on Ted Howard and Lloyd's version that I have not been able to access. All I know about Mr. Howard is that he was "old" and that Lloyd collected this song from him sometime before 1958:

http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~zierke/lloyd/songs/southaustralia.html

There is one other source that I found unique and interesting. It comes from Lydia Parrish's SLAVE SONGS OF THE GEORGIA SEA ISLANDS (1942):

thread.cfm?threadid=48959#739457

I don't have this book and in my original note back in '02, I failed to give any information that she might have published about the dating of this song.

http://books.google.com/books?id=awOzMKju54QC&pg=PA220&dq=Haul+away,+I'm+a+rolling+king&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

So, to bring this very long note to a conclusion, unless I have missed something, I do not think we can push "South Australia" back to the early 1850s and I am going to withdraw it as a candidate for the voyages of the "Julia Ann". I would love to be mistaken about this. I don't think Charley's suggestion about "Nancy Blair" is strong enough to do the trick. But thanks for that information, Charley.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 04:02 PM

Q-

Ted Howard's version does appear unique with its references to "Nancy Blair" but it's also a version that is widely covered by contemporary nautical singers who either got it from Blow Boys Blow or from someone else who did.

But there are no coincidences. Everything will fit when the puzzle is finally solved!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble