BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 04:59 PM

Amos,


"As I have said several times these are wholly different spheres of action."

Thank you for that.

I would like to clarify my own position.

I am not interested in legal definitions of "blame" and "responsibility", I am concerned with dictionary definitions, which have little to do with either adversrial or gladitorial debate, but which are concerned with clarifying meaning and facilitating clear communication.

In addition, I'm sorry to labour a point, but I would be grateful if you could clarify two key points for me as unambiguously as you can:

1. Do you see some rape victims as being more responsible for their circumstances than others?

2. With regard to the following comment:

"However, it would be foolish to let these facts about courtroom dramas adulterate one's integrity or personal sense of truth after the trial is over."

Are you suggesting that some rape victims, upon honest reflection, would have to admit that their behaviour or style of dress made the attack on them more likely?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 04:04 PM

You are quite right. In a court of law, "responsible" means "to blame". No question.

And since courts are by their nature adversarial and gladiatorial one should not walk in to such a hearing asserting one is personally responsible for what happened. Not because it is not true up to a point but because one is there to win a contest, not speak the truth.

However, it would be foolish to let these facts about courtroom dramas adulterate one's integrity or personal sense of truth after the trial is over.

As I have said several times these are wholly different spheres of action.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 04:01 PM

Amos,

"Culpability and responsibility are two different things."

As the dictionary definitions I provided above show, this is not true.


Responsibility in the sense in which it is used in this thread is all about culpability.

Accepting partiual responsibility for a rape in this context means accepting partialblame.

It also refers to a parents obligation to their child, a politicians obligation to his country, and a policemans obligation to protect citizens of society.

And it also refers to the personal responsibility of which you speak.

But heres the distinction.

The responsibility that rape victims have for themselves is not distinct from the responsibility that other members of society have for themselves in this respect.

The rape victim who goes to church is as responsible for what happenned to her as the one who is raped in the office, and they are both equally responsible for what happened to them as the one who was raped in her own bed after losing her mojo at the very last second.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:58 PM

QED Lox.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:51 PM

Ok Ake,

In the very specific case that you have outlined, where a man and woman who are strangers are both naked in bed together and have both had a few drinks ...

Admittedly, in that situation, there is a higher risk of the man believing that she intended to have sex ...

You've got me there all right!

However,

The percentage chance of him being a rapist is the same as that of the Taxi driver, or the friend of a friend who is giving you a lift though.

And a non rapist will not commit rape.


Only a "stupid" person would find that hard to uderstand.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:32 PM

Culpability and responsibility are two different things.

One is a legal, social construct.

The other is personal.

It doesn't matter what a lawyer says, personal responsibility is the only sane personal interpretation of such an event. This in NO wisew reduces the rapist's culpability.

You are confusing the social universe with its rich tradition of blame-finding and adversarial bloviations with the simple truth of the matter.

If you let the legal system con you into believing untruths, you become captured by lies.

PERSONAL responsibility is not the same thing as legal burden.""

With the very greatest of respect, Amos, tell that to the victim after that lawyer has bludgeoned her into submission, and as a result the perpetrator is free as a bird to re-offend.

I think you will probably have some trouble getting her to accept that responsibility, in a court of law, is any different than blame.

My point is that in introducing the concept of victim responsibility for rape, you hand the perpetrator (whether you mean to or not), a very powerful weapon, which will, however you spin it, vastly increase the likelihood of his escaping the consequences of his crime.

In effect you load the dice aginst the victim.

I don't approve of that!

DO YOU?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 03:22 PM

Don:

If I may say so, none of those solutions were recommended by Ake.

Whatever steps you--or your hypothetical woman--take in a day or a year are entirely your own choice in action, timing, location, born out of your own sense of "what to do and why to do it".

That's personal responsibility. If you decide to cross a street you do it knowing that it is riskier than standing on the sidewalk, but you do so thinking you have assessed the dangers correctly.

It's not the point to stop going places. It's owning your own actions and decisions.

ANd as I said earlier its not a legal issue or a blame criterion.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 02:54 PM

""So, what you are saying is that people should abdicate all responsibility for their safety and rely on "society" to protect them?""

Putting your words into my mouth does not make you right.

Of course one should watch out for open manholes, in order not to fall in, but rapists do not carry badges advertising what they are.

Nor do rapists form a majority of males, in fact they are probably a tiny minority of the breed.

Also, it has been well established, further up this thread, that only a tiny minority of rape victims are in the the group you categorise as risk takers.

As to relying on "society", that is a nonsensical statement.

We all rely on the "criminal justice system" to protect us from lawbreakers.

You are more likely to be mugged, than any individual woman is to be raped.

Do you stay at home with your doors locked?

NO! Of course you don't.

You are more likely to be involved in a car crash, than a woman is to be raped.

Do you sell your car and move to an uninhabited island?

NO! Of course you don't.

Why NOT?

Because to do either would be a ridiculous overreaction, and you would rightly be enraged if anyone told you that you were responsible for putting yourself in harms way.

Take one individual woman, and she might meet one hundred men without a single one being a rapist.

So you expect her to protect herself by projecting as unattractive an image as possible, and staying away from places of entertainment, and treating all men with the ultimate of suspicion.

Assuming she does everything on that list, she is still more likely to be raped than her friend who ignores the precautions.

Something screwy there, don't you think?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 01:17 PM

Culpability and responsibility are two different things.

One is a legal, social construct.

The other is personal.

It doesn't matter what a lawyer says, personal responsibility is the only sane personal interpretation of such an event. This in NO wisew reduces the rapist's culpability.

You are confusing the social universe with its rich tradition of blame-finding and adversarial bloviations with the simple truth of the matter.

If you let the legal system con you into believing untruths, you become captured by lies.

PERSONAL responsibility is not the same thing as legal burden.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 12:04 PM

So, what you are saying is that people should abdicate all responsibility for their safety and rely on "society" to protect them?

Madness!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 11:52 AM

""I have not heard any of the most vociferous posters speak about a need to take responsibility for ones own safety.

The point that one or two of us are making seems self evident to me, and does not affect the culpability of the perpetrator.

There is an obvious culture appearing everywhere, which is based on an abdication of responsibility for anything.

This culture is IMO destructive.""

There comes a point, Ake, when you have to decide which side of an argument does the greater harm, if fully, and generally accepted.

SCENARIO 1. Rape victim goes to court. The court decides her case on the basis that rape is indefensible, and evidence as to the victim's previous behaviour is inadmissible, given that she said NO! The rapist goes to jail, the victim is allowed to put the wreckage of her life back together.

SCENARIO 2. Rape victim goes to court. She is accused by the defence of being morally loose, and irresponsible because of her style of dress, consumption of alcohol, and placing trust in a newly met stranger. She is tied up in knots by a clever lawyer, ripped to shreds, and the rapist goes free, secure in the belief that he can rape with impunity, as long as he chooses only provocatively dressed females. The victim, on the other hand, leaves court stripped of the last vestige of self respect, and quite possibly suicidal.

The man in each of these cases is a RAPIST!

Now I'm well aware that you do not condone the crime, but from the moment you allow even the concept of responsibility, SCENARIO 2 becomes not just possible, but in many cases inevitable.

Which of these scenarios represents the most potential harm, not just to this victim, but to others in the future?

That is why I will not ever allow that a victim of rape is in the slightest degree responsible.

I decline to set myself up for the guilt I would feel when scenario 2 came about.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:47 PM

hi ake, there isn't much more to add. i will just say that i think having a serious car crash might have 'similar' effects on ones confidence and health as rape.

i don't think the majority of rapes are people getting into bed with strangers. maybe they have seen them around for a few weeks? we won't get to know.
most are aquantance rapes. where people are friends or family friends or have known them a while.
thats why i said people can make you beileve they are good people, buton the inide you really never know.
as someone who was 'friends' with a peadophile. he was very very good at hiding who he really was.

i am trusting to a degree yes, still get things wrong of course. still if we didn't make mistakes we would never learn. but i also know not to label everyone the same.
see why you think the way you do ake, i just think you are on the wrong path for the right reasons.....sorry that sounded really patronising, but i can't be bothered to retype it! it was a compliment..honest.

take care hun.
jade x x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:17 PM

There is a large difference in risk between getting into a car with a "friend of a friend" or a taxi driver and getting into bed with a complete stranger.

You may be a nice open hearted girl, who thinks well of everyone Jade, but I'm afraid the real world is not like that.
Safety is of the utmost importance, to protect oneself from STD's or rape

To argue anything else is extremely stupid and irresponsible besides puting women at additional risk.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 06:20 PM

lox, i am glad that what i said you could make sense out of.

i know what i mean, but find it hard sometimes to put it into words that make sense to anyone else.

yes, if you have no evidence that someone is a rapist, no suspitions(?) then why not trust that person.

the same for getting in a car of a friend of a friend, or even a taxi driver. that person may appear sober but may be over the limit and dangerous.

people are good at covering up their true personalites. apart from trusting our own senses or vibes about people, we are all in the dark.
often the people that are the most dangerous are the ones who engender trust quickly.
the only time someone can ever be held responsible is if they know of someones history and still take the risk. but i wouldn't blame them should anything happen. it is in our nature to want to make people better, to change them for the better.

i hope this makes what i said earlier a little clearer.
take care all
jade x x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 05:28 PM

Going off drunk driving is illegal, and can be blamed for an accident that happens.

Going dancing at a club is not illegal, and we've already agreed that the victim can't be blamed for rape.

Sorry Lizzie, absolutely no comparison.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 02:14 PM

Jade,

Have you ever heard of a person knowingly going off with a rapist?

That would be risky.

A Rapist is likely to rape.

But when you have no idea whether someone is a rapist or not, it is a matter of luck.

And rapists attack all sorts of women, not just drunk ones or ones that dress sassilly.

In fact, they usually attack their "friends".


So to apply Ake's reasoning, never go home with someone you know, because you are more likely to get raped.


But of course we know that that line of reasoning is nonsense so ... whatever ...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 07:13 AM

I agree, there is little more to be said..

jade, you left out that if someone got into that car, knowing they were drunk, and something awful happened to them, it is still not their *fault* if the other person does something terrible, but they were *responsible* for getting into the car in the first place. They were *responsible* for getting *drunk* in the **first** place.
As such, they put themselves at a FAR HIGHER RISK of unscrupulous, opportunistic 'drivers' who may decide to take them to a lonely spot and rape them.

It is why the police tell young women to make sure they know the taxi company they are being driven home by, to cut the chances of that happening, because so often women are absolutely legless when they turn out of pubs and clubs these days.   Even then, they are still risking goodness knows what, because even the most reputable taxi firm may have hired a dodgy bloke.   

Do not get legless in the first place, I guess is the best idea, but woe betide any person, let alone another woman, who dares to state that to women these days.

"It's OUR BLOODY RICHT TO GET LEGLESS!"

Fair enough, but then be prepared to accept the consequences.

Don't drink to the point where you have NO IDEA what is happening to you. It is, imo, one of the most stupid (and degrading) things a woman can do, because she is doing the equivalent of lying down in the middle of the motorway and saying that no-one has the 'right' to hit her, when of course, the ***chances*** are that someone probably will.

No man should rape.
But some do.

No woman should behave in a totally irresponsible fashion.
But some do.

When the two meet.......chaos may well ensue.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 06:49 AM

'fraid not Jade.

But I think this thread has run its course....keep well ..A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 06:09 AM

i understand and totally get the need for personal responsibilty.
i just don't think it applies in the case of rape to the victim.

if it was a car accident, you wouldn't blame the driver of another car for being on the same road at the same time as say a drunk driver.
getting into a car driven by someone you know is drunk would be very silly.though you still wouldn't be to blame for a crash . BUT if you didn't know that person was drunk and got into the car, you as a passenger would bear no responsibilty at all to whether a crash occurs or not.
the same with a rapist. if one knows he is a rapist, one wouldn't go anywhere near him sorry, or her. you wouldn't be inviting it but would know the increased chances of it happening. therefore be able to make an informed decision.

to live life without trusting anyone to some degree woud be a very sad life indeed. one which i doubt anyone of us could imagine.

does that make sense?

x x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:27 AM

Thanks mousethief......I didn't mean you were posting nonesense, it was just that sentence I couldn't understand.

I have not heard any of the most vociferous posters speak about a need to take responsibility for ones own safety.

The point that one or two of us are making seems self evident to me, and does not affect the culpability of the perpetrator.

There is an obvious culture appearing everywhere, which is based on an abdication of responsibility for anything.

This culture is IMO destructive.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 03:48 AM

"As for the type of responsibility described by Amos, it applies to all victims equally regardless circumstance."


I agree with Amos and Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 10:29 PM

For "behavior" at the end substitute "responsibility" -- sorry about that.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:28 PM

"nonesense"

Is this a typo?

Well I suppose it doesn't matter really.

It's still recognizable as nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:17 PM

Mousethief, I am listening to what they are saying, and it sounds very much like nonesense to me.

I dont really understand your meaning here, perhaps a typo?

You're not listening to what they're really saying, you're assuming that because they don't agree with your way of saying it, they must be disagreeing with the basic idea of taking behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM

Ake,

Pay attention.

"taking responsibility for ones actions in any walk of life is pure common sense."

Yes thats right.

So as rape is the action of a rapist, the responsibility for it is the rapists.

As rape is not the action of the victim, it is not the responsibility of the victim.


As for the type of responsibility described by Amos, it applies to all victims equally regardless circumstance.


Now why don't you in the brown pants brigade stop whingeing.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 07:01 PM

People aren't arguing against it. You're not listening to what they're really saying, you're assuming that because they don't agree with your way of saying it, they must be disagreeing with the basic idea of taking behavior.

And even if you were right on that score, political agenda is far from the only reason that could explain their behavior.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 06:41 PM

Well mousethief, taking responsibility for ones actions in any walk of life is pure common sense.
Why do so many here argue against it?

It can only be, a political agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 05:50 PM

Brown shirted thought police? Oh FFS ake get a grip.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 05:35 PM

I take it then, that all on this thread with the exception of myself believe that we should abdicate all responsibility for our health and safety?......I think not, at the beginning of this thread there were many who spoke in favour of personal responsibility....seems all have been bullied into silence by the brown shirted thought police.

Stand up and be counted you are not sheep! The MO you see being practiced here, will soon make Any meaningful discussion impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 10 - 05:16 PM

No apology needed Dave el Gnomo

I jumped to a conclusion, based on the proximity of two posts, and it is I who should be apologising, which I most sincerely do.

In future I really must not pull the trigger until I am sure just what the target is, and where.

Contritely
Don T

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:51 PM

I meant to finish.. because he woldn't feel bound by threat of violence to some kind of imaginary 'contract' sealed by a kiss.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:48 PM

"From: akenaton - PM
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 04:36 PM

Well I think if a woman lets a stranger take her home strips and gets into bed with that stranger,"

And then she discovers he has a hideous case of genital warts, or and then she receives a text saying her sister has just had a car crash and is in an emergency ward, or and then she starts to feel really sick because she's had too much to drink and totally loses her desire for sex?

What would a bloke do in those circumstances?

He certainly wouldn't be too worried about leading a woman on and making her think he was 'gagging for it'.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 05:17 PM

Thankfully Ake, Amos is much better at describing his point of view than you are, so it is already very clear what his point was.

Thankfully we also have dictionaries to clarify the meaning of words.

So we can ignore your impulse to redefine and take ownership of words like "responsibility" and "fascism" so they fit your world view.

Equally we can ignore your attempts to redefine and take ownership of Amos' point of view so it fits your world view.

Which makes you obsolete.

But lets examine your last ditch desperate example anyway.

"Well I think if a woman lets a stranger take her home strips and gets into bed with that stranger ... blah ... blah ..."

So the woman and the man are naked in bed together ... and then ...

... actually I think I'll stop there ...

There is no point carrying on with this self satirizing caricature.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 04:36 PM

Well I think if a woman lets a stranger take her home strips and gets into bed with that stranger, she is responsible not for the crime but for putting herself in a very dangerous situation.

I think what Amos was saying, was that if the woman fails to learn from the experience that personal responsibility for ones own safety is paramount, then she runs the risk of ending up in the same situation again.

Also, as Amos said, realisation that her actions got her into danger will help her to rationalise and move on from the horrific experience.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 03:51 PM

Amos,

Thanks for that.

Your tangent is interesting as it draws atteention to and ultimately clarifies the confusion confusion surrounding the subject of responsibility.

The reason I commented on its relevance, was not because I have a problem with tangents, but because there have been posts to this thread which asserted that a woman who dresses sexily is partially responsible for the rape on her. These comments have attempted to blur the issue by misappying the "self possession" sense of responsibilty to imply partial blame.

It was therefore important for me to clarify that distinction so as to remove any ambiguity, and to show that in the context of this discussion a woman who dresses sexily or who is drunk is no more responsible for being raped than a woman who wears a nuns habit and hangs out in church.

I think that that last distinction puts us on the same page.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 11:08 AM

Well Lox...your sense of the topic is of course your own responsibility!! ;>) More seriously, I don't know many threads around here where close tangents such as the one I introduced are not welcome as part of the ordinary flow of discussion. The topic, strictly speaking is: "Sone rape victims should take blame??", and the answer, of course, is "No.". Two posts, end of thread.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:06 AM

Janie,

Before my discussion with Amos began, I stated that it was wrong to say that a woman may be deemed blameless yet be held responsible if she dresses or behaves a particular way.

I pointed out that this distinction is false.

Since then I have attempted to illustrate in what way it is false.

This was in response to posts which suggested that a woman who dresses or behaves in a particular way, though not to blame, has to accept some responsibility for being raped.

I have gone on to illustrate that the definition of "responsibility" which is relevant to this thread is pretty much interchangeable with the word blame, while those which are not interchangeable with the word blame are not relevant to this thread.

In the context of this thread, if we speak english, we must choose whether we think a woman is partially to blame/responsible for a rape committed against her or not.


Amos's comments do not help us get any further on this question, as they merely illustrate that according to definiton 1 on my list, all women are responsible being in a situation where they have been raped regardless of what they wear or how they behave, as they might not have been raped if they had decided not to be in that circumstance on that occasion - eg a female office worker, who is chose to be in the office at that time, a jogger in the park who wouldn't be in the park if she hadn't decided that that was where she wanted to jog, or a girlfriend discovering for the first time that she is in an abusive relationship.

I know and understand that Amos is not satying that they are at fault. I have read his posts and identified his point very cleaarly.

However, his contribution does not help us in any way to form a view on whether or not some women bring rape upon themselves.

In other words, it is not relevant to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Janie
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 07:03 AM

Amos, I would go a little further with that last statement of yours. Victims of sexual assault also often blame themselves for having been raped, making the same mistake in thinking that confuses responsibility (and just what one is responsible for) and blame that others make when they consider the victim to be partly to blame. It is essential to their healing that they shed any notion that they are responsible for the actions of the rapist.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Janie
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:41 AM

Sorry Lox,

I thought it in one of your posts that a statement was made to the effect that distinguishing between blame and responsibility was nothing but semantics, but I was reading through the last 50-75 posts pretty quickly and it appears I misattributed to you.

Ain't gonna go back now, though, to see who did post it:>)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:22 AM

Amos,

"Because even though one cannot change the mind of the perpetrator one can certainly examine the assumptions, decisions, and computations one used to walk the path leading up to it and decide, once one has viewed those things, how one might change them going forward in order to re-assume a sense of deciding one's own life."


Ah I see, so you aren't discussing the thread topic and the article which inspired it, but the psychological recovery of a rape victim from the trauma of the attack?


So in the case of the woman who decides to stay in and watch TV with a cup of cocoa and the woman who agreed to go to her bosses office, would they in your view benefit equally from this reflective process or does it only apply to the one who dresses up in fun clothes and goes out for a drink?


I just need you to be clear on those two points.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 06:10 AM

Janie, you wrote:

"Lox, I agree with Amos that the difference between blame and responsibility is not one of semantics."

Sorry, but what thread have you been reading?

Where have I said this?

I have referred you to the definition of the word "responsibility", and clarified which definition is relevant to a thread in which we a discussing whether to blame a rape victim for the rape committed against them.

It is definition 2 below.



re·spon·si·bil·i·ty
   /rɪˌspɒnsəˈbɪlɪti/ Show Spelled[ri-spon-suh-bil-i-tee] Show IPA
–noun,plural-ties.
1.
the state or fact of being responsible.

2.
an instance of being responsible: The responsibility for this mess is yours!
3.
a particular burden of obligation upon one who is responsible: the responsibilities of authority.
4.
a person or thing for which one is responsible: A child is a responsibility to its parents.
5.
reliability or dependability, esp. in meeting debts or payments.
—Idiom
6.
on one's own responsibility, on one's own initiative or authority: He changed the order on his own responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 10 - 03:54 AM

I'm definitely out of the thread now. Some of the posts have taken a turn for the surreal! In fact, to be honest, I'm going to spend a bit of time upstairs where conversation is more sedate, unless there is a 'what is folk or 'Show of Hands' thread:-)

Before I go though I would like to clear up one point with Don T. If you look back up the thread, Don, you will see that there is one person who tells long rambling tales calling upon their own experience of anything that anyone can mention. I do not consider your posts to long, rambling or resembling childrens stories in any way. I know that your own experience was real, not second hand and I unequivocaly apologise if I gave you the impression that my Jackanory post was about your posts. I would have PM'd but I think a public apology is better. As an aside. the comment I made about 'Cuckoo's nest' was in support of your post which finished 'and so on...' I was hoping to show that ANYTHING could be seen as an incitement or inducement. I obviously failed!

I think gnu was right - 1000 posts on their way. Have fun without me :-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 11:48 PM

From a human standpoint it is terribly important because one side effect of rape is a personal sense of hopeless degradation, having been forced to be the effect of unwelcome physical action of the most intimate sort. The way out of this deep despond of debasement and self-loathing is to take personal responsibility for how one ended up where one ended up. Because even though one cannot change the mind of the perpetrator one can certainly examine the assumptions, decisions, and computations one used to walk the path leading up to it and decide, once one has viewed those things, how one might change them going forward in order to re-assume a sense of deciding one's own life.

That's about as simple as I can make it. It has nothing to do with culpability or legal action. It has to do with recovering some integrity and your own soul.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:13 PM

thanks for answering guys. i have seen the males crowding around females, ducks especially, but i always thought they were fighting each other for the 'right' and to impress her. i would never have thought that animals could rape too.

ok, so if we take the animal rape, and apply it to humans who have had brain damage, it is easy to why that happens. these sort of people should on medication to lessen their labido, or something. wow that sounds bad.
luckily they are few.
i think we have all seen that the men, or should that be gentlemen? on this thread that all (here) prefer their partners, to be exactly that. willing and wanting. so rape has nothing really to do with lust unless there is a medical condition is present, in which case that comes under a whole new heading. where prevention is concerned anyway.not sure, but that would probably be easier to get ones head around and get over it.
to want sex as some sort of power trip is another thing altogether.

i see what amos is saying, for me if i had stayed at home it wouldn't have happened. maybe.
though i do not take any call it blame or responsibilty. i take the point.
i happen to believe in fate, that every descision we make has different endings, but always destined. to me if it hadn't been him that night it would have been something else traumatic to get me where i needed to be.
i was rather lucky in a way, he didn't hit me or threaten to.
just my take on it.

however....
just because i was there and yes, looking back i was wrong to trust him. that doesn't let him off. it was his fault he raped me, not mine! what led me there shouldn't matter.if we go down that route, we could go back days, weeks, even years. what should be concentrated on is what happened once i was there.
which was a lovely evening of giggles and celebrations, it was my 17th birthday. i had done that before and was ok.
sorry for making it personal, but thats the only way i can think of it. i can see this in the bigger picture, but only by applying it personally first..if you get me?

.......

sorry if this makes no sense. i have tried to sleep, but everytime i try my nose starts again. so i am somewhat frustrated!

i hope you all slept well.
have a wonderful day everyone
jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Janie
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 10:11 PM

This week National Public Radio (NPR) started a 4 part series on the failure of college campuses to deal effectively or appropriately with sexual assaults on campus.

Here is link to today's segment of the story. Failed Justice Leaves Rape Victim Nowhere to Turn.

Below is the blurp for the series, which serves as a table of contents to listen to the podcasts for the full series.

Seeking Justice For Campus Rapes

One of out 5 women will be sexually assaulted during her college years. And despite federal laws created to protect students, colleges and universities have failed to protect women from this epidemic of sexual assault. Even after they've been found responsible for sexual assault, students are rarely expelled or suspended. NPR News Investigations and the Center for Public Integrity teamed up to examine this ongoing problem on college campuses.

Part 1: Morning Edition, Feb. 24

After Jeanne Clery was raped and murdered in her dorm room in 1986, her parents devoted their lives to changing federal law to try to make college campuses safer. It's been 20 years since a federal law was passed in their daughter's name. Still, campus discipline systems rarely expel men when they're found responsible for a sexual assault. And women have been unable to count on help from the government's oversight agency. Read this story.

Part 2: All Things Considered, Feb. 25

Margaux was a freshman at Indiana University when another student living on her floor raped her. She reported the assault to campus security, but the judicial hearing did not go as she had hoped. This is the story of her struggle for justice — and to feel safe again.

Part 3: All Things Considered, Feb. 26

Even after reporting her rape to campus security, Margaux found that schools often have a limited ability to investigate these complex cases.

Part 4: Morning Edition, March 2

One reason colleges have a hard time stopping sexual assault is a misconception about who is committing these crimes. The assumption is that rapes are often committed by young men whose judgment is impaired from drinking. But University of Massachusetts forensic psychologist David Lisak says most are serial predators.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Janie
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:44 PM

Lox, I agree with Amos that the difference between blame and responsibility is not one of semantics. It is a very important distinction. I also think Amos has made clear that he in no way thinks that a person who has been raped is to blame for being raped. No person is ever responsible, objectively, for the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors of another person.

Amos, I think you are trying to convey something that I also tried to convey early in this thread (although you are doing a better job of it.) I think the results of the survey cited at the beginning of this thread (i.e. women opining that rape victims are often share blame for having been raped) reflects the very common faulty reasoning that fails to make the distinction between responsibility and blame.

While it is true that one definition of responsibility compasses judgement, that definition encompasses all judgements, both positive judgements and negative judgements. "My father is responsible for having taught me the difference between right and wrong," is an example of using responsible to connote positive judgement.   In this instance, it also strongly implies positive moral judgement.   Even using this definition, responsibility is not a synonym for "blame" or for "fault."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 09:34 PM

Hopefully you will soon explain to us why it's important?

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:45 PM

Well, there ya go; the notion of how one's own's causality leads one into a certain path is the facet of responsibility I am speaking to. And it does not signify nothing at all; it is the key to recovering from the feeling one is a victim, psychologically speaking. This has nothing to do with the legalistic use of pinning the blame on someone, as I have said earlier. But it is more important than you might think.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: frogprince
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:35 PM

Amos, I frankly can't see that you're saying much of anything with these recent posts. Of course we make decisions all the time that are only ours to "own". Any American male about my age had to own a decision to enlist, watch for a draft notice, or head for Canada. Anyone has to own a decision to drive to drive to the home of a troubled friend who asks for support, or stay home, when the road is dangerously icy. Everyone has to own the decision to ingest more, or less, calories. etc. ad infinitum. But as to a decision to take the 1:30 plane or the 3:00 plane, when one has absolutely no reason to believe it will make any difference to anyone, I think guruizing about "owning" the decision is absolutely sound, if not fury, signifying nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 08:22 PM

Amos,

You also wrote:

"Steam on. Youhave completely missed my distinction."

In fact, upon close scrutiny, it is clear that the reverse is true.