EFDSS and good business practice

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 06:07 PM

if EFDSS were to go back in to the festival business[ which they should never have abandoned] The sensible business approach, is as I suggested earlier is to do it by degrees.
start one, one day or possibly two day festival, circulate all their members and offer reductions for members, keep expenses to a minimium,
organise lots of singarounds, and avoid expensive superstar acts[perhaps just have one for a main concert]and one expensive ceilidh band.
I am sure many dance bands, and morris sides would volunteer and many of the singers who are already involved in the society would give their services for nothing.
I certainly would come from Ireland for nothing, apart from accomodation and i dont mean an expensive hotel, I mean a bed and a breakfast in the morning.
this could act as the flagship for the society, but just keep it to one festival, until it has been proven for a number of years.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 05:44 PM

Dick, firstly do we need any more festivals? There are already more than you can shake a stick at, but some high-profile festivals have had to be cancelled this year. It doesn't appear to be a good time to be getting into the festival business.

Secondly, the festivals you mention succeed because they are run by groups of committed and hard-working volunteers, who have the local contacts to make it work and obtain local sponsorship. I'm not clear what you think EFDSS could bring to the party.

Thirdly, I very much doubt if any of these festivals are massive money-spinners. The financial risks are large, and the benefits small. That's not a "business-like" investment.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 05:32 PM

Not quite sure if this is allowed in this thread, but I would like to say something constructive. I have had cause today to contact EFDSS for the first time. I received an answer from Verity Flecknell, Society & Marketing Administrator regarding a quiery regarding the music of Keith Marsden and received a quick, helpful and efficient answer.
I am not a member, but am certainly considering joining, is this not a good way of raising funds.
Perhaps positive comment and a recruitment drive would be a good way of benefiting all, or is my opinion a little simplistic?
Please follow the advice of Joe Offer, I bruise easily.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 04:30 PM

Peter,conducive not conductive
please,prove your point with facts, or dont make comments that you cant back up.,clearly you cant.
you are clearly using my phraseology"talking through etc" as an excuse to evade the question.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 04:16 PM

Do you really think approaching people like you do is conductive to continuation of a discussion Dick?

I am out of here.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:36 PM

I am not andhave not been bitching about Irish music, I asked Peter, to back up his statement about Comhaltas with fact.
I doubt if he can
Ralphie, I regularly play music in England, in fact I was playing at clubs in England, march 18 /march 19, april 12 13 15, june 7 11 12 and at Scarborough sea fest in july, and I will be playing at Tenterden festival sept 30 oct 1st,
since when have opinions only been of value because someone is resident in the UK.
Peter Laban is not resident in the UK, in fact like me he lives in Ireland, but you say you agree with his opinions ,"Peter I am with you" yet by your logic his opinions should be valueless because he lives in Ireland.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: GUEST,Ralphie.
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 02:19 PM

Peter. I'm with you.
Dick Miles has nothing to do with the society. He lives in Ireland. I treat his opinions with the contempt they deserve.
His opinions on the EFDSS have just about as much relevance as mine would have to the EFDSS (Estonian Folk Dance And Song Society)
Dick. Stay in Ireland and carry on bitching about Irish music.
You left England many years ago. Your opinions are worth nothing. Please keep them to yourself.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 02:13 PM

OK, drop the animosity.
Accusing someone of "talking out of his arse," does not constitute civil or intelligent conversation.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 01:57 PM

Well, that's your prerogative.

I'd appreciate it though if you stop jumping at me on this site and start shouting abuse at me and raving like a lunatic.

Probably too much to ask though.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM

ok PeTER, back up youtr statement with fact,
yes, and the feeling is mutual I find you beyond unpleasant.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 01:41 PM

Dick, you're beyond unpleasant. And you have a strong tendency to ascribe your own faults to others.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 01:36 PM

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: GUEST,Peter Laban - PM
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 01:03 PM

'What exactly does "best practice" mean?'

I don't know either but Comhaltas wouldn't be the first to come to mind as an example of it.
well I heard that the national fleadh was extremely well organised this year, it was in Cavan, Martin O Donoghue was involved andIhave been told he did a good job.
Comhaltas for all their faults[ Ididnt agree with the expulsion of the clontarf branch] are, as regards raising revenue business like, can you prove otherwise PETER lABAN, or are you talking out of your arse in your usual fashion.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM

imo,
EFDSS should have one national festival acting as a flagship, and a place for recruiting new members[ this is what used to happen at Sidmouth when EFDSS used to run it]
please tell me how the festivals that EFDSS used to run, whitby, chippenham ,sidmouth,[spring to mind] now survive if they dont make even a small profit, then lets look at some other festivals that have run for years[saltburn, warwick,bromyard,]they would not be still running if they were loss makers., so lets cut this claptrap about festivals being loss makers ,they are only loss makers if they are run by people with no business acumen.
number one mistake that EFDSS made was the dissolution of its branches, this needs to be rectified[imo] as soon as possible, if you cut off all the branches of a tree it will not flourish, that is precisely what EFDSS did when they abdicated from having branches.
there is no denying that Comhaltas with its system of branches, examinations, tuition, competitions and fleadhs brings in massive revenue, and at this stage EFDSS needs revenue, it has got to be run in a business like way, it cannot rely entirely on handouts.
I have massive reservations about the competition system, but it is financially successful, and its spin off is that it does bring many musicians together, and boosts the local economy.
finally, John talks about running a festival from a standing start, that never deterred EFDSS before, they must have started the original Sidmouth festival with help from volunteers,
heres an idea ,if they ever start a festival again , let every EFDSS member in for half price, some of them might chuck their entrance fee back to EFDSS if they care about the Society.I know I would, furthermore if EFDSS start a festival again, even if it is only a one day festival, I promise I will join.
in fact a one day festival might well be the sensible way to start.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 01:03 PM

'What exactly does "best practice" mean?'

I don't know either but Comhaltas wouldn't be the first to come to mind as an example of it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM

Howard Jones

I can't see a need for EFDSS to organise festivals, there are already plenty of festivals throughout the country and throughout the year.

The one exception to that might be the revival of 'The National' which ran into problems due to loss of a suitable venue. It would take some money though - and Dick's touching faith that festivals make money is an easy faith to hold if you've never tried running one, especially from a standing start.

The EFDSS should be a source of information about events, but there are very few on its website. Why doesn't it provide a service like Webfeet does for e-ceilidh events? There's not even a link to it.

As an EFDSS volunteer and associate I see a few moves in this direction. The web site revamping is an ongoing operation and there are moves towards an online directory although I understand that the funding didn't come through for that development. It's early days yet and EFDSS seem to be planning carefully and choosing things which are sustainable within their present and projected resources.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 12:00 PM

What exactly does "best practice" mean? In my experience, it is used by people to mean "I know how to do this better than you do". Also, in my experience, this is not invariably true.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 11:46 AM

Howard,
as you well know EFDSS used to run festivals, now they dont but other people do and do it PROFITABLY,WHY should EFDSS not run festivals and make money out of them.
MattKeen,you may think it Dull and unimaginative, but Comhaltas makes money out of it.,therfore it is good business practice.
I would suggest you visit the national fleadh sometime it is far from dull and unimaginative ,it is in fact alive with hunrerds of musicians making very good music.
Comhaltas[ not the EFDSS] provide musical tuition,.
quote from Comhaltas website[Classes]

We offer hundreds of classes a week in a variety of traditional instruments, singing and dance. These classes are offered on a term-by-term basis by the local branches of Comhaltas — you might want to find your local branch. Many branches offer instrument rentals or loans if you are just starting out, especially if you want to learn a particularly expensive instrument such as the Uillean Pipes or Harp.
Comhaltas have branches , In the following places glasgow area[3],st albans,bradford ,tyneside, newport wales,liverpool leeds, w london bedford, e london, south luton, preston, manchester, bolton, leicester, s birmingham, leamington spa, coventry.
the one area not well covered is south of london and the south west.
   EFDSS, have no branches, why?

however EFDSS dont receive the same funding, so clearly the areas to concentrate on are those not covered by comhaltas, south of london and south west.
Matt, I do have considerable business experience.
furthermore I am not impressed by your qualifications, running a professional music charity does not require business acumen, it proves you know how to administrate , and probably illustrates that you have a knowledge of how   the grant system is best utilised, that is not the same thing as knowing how to run asuccesful private enterprise.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: mattkeen
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 10:04 AM

Dick

I work in charity best practice development, & grant giving and was a Director of a national music charity and, take it from me, you know nothing about professional practice for music charities. You seem to think that transferring specific activities of one organisation to another is something to do with best practice and being professional. Actually its more to do with being dull, unimaginative and duplicating services

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Zen
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 10:00 AM

Comhaltas itself is not without internal problems and faction fighting. See several previous threads on the organisation.

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: mattkeen
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 09:56 AM

THIS IS WHAT IS DOES:
The English's Folk Dance and Song Society exists to raise the national and international profile of the folk arts in England. It is the custodian of our heritage, protecting and developing our rich and diverse traditions and ever-evolving culture. For nearly a century the English Folk Dance and Song Society has been preserving and disseminating our folk heritage.

The Society works to promote the best of the folk arts in a range of mediums including dance, music, song, film, exhibitions, publications and our library collections; engage new generations with the folk arts through workshops, classes and study, and to ensure that the folk arts are a fundamental part of the cultural life of the UK.
Mission Statement

The English Folk Dance and Song Society will develop its resources, namely the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, Cecil Sharp House, its professional staff and its members, to:

    * maintain itself as a centre of excellence for the study, practice and dissemination of traditional English folk song, dance and music;
    * provide national and local outreach services that enable and increase access;
    * celebrate diversity and promote equality
THIS IS HOW IT DOES IT:
EFDSS Education runs educational and participatory arts projects, classes, workshops, seminars and other events, for children, young people and adults of all ages and backgrounds.

Drawing from the diverse traditional and folk arts of England and the British Isles, our work encompasses:
* Song * Music * Dance * Singing Games * Storytelling * Drama * Traditions * Visual Arts * and more *

We work in schools and colleges, and informal community settings in London and other parts of England. We also support the continuing professional development of, and exchange between, artists and educators from folk and other arts backgrounds, and provide INSET for teachers and other professional staff.

All EFDSS educational activities are informed by close work with the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library (VWML), England’s premier folk arts library and archive.

EFDSS Education works in partnership with a range of organisations fostering links with contemporary, classical, urban and world art forms, as well as across folk traditions, and within other related spheres such as education, sport and health
English Dance & Song is the longest-established magazine devoted to folk music, dance and song in the country. First published in 1936, it has appeared at least four times a year ever since.

English Dance & Song exists to interest, inform and stimulate the membership of the EFDSS, as well as the wider folk music and dance community.

English Dance & Song aims to publish contributions of the highest quality.

The range of interests include traditional song, traditional dance (social, display, ceremonial), traditional music, custom and children's games. The geographical spread is not confined to England, but may also include Scotland, Wales and Ireland; as well as the USA, and other areas of the world which may be appropriate

OBVIOUSLY PLUS THE VWML
oh and the shop.............. and loads of other stuff I haven't got time to itemise inc the activities and concerts and dances at Cecil # Hse itself

Dick - you amaze me

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 09:18 AM

There's more to running an organisation than simply raising revenue, and for a non-profit organisation it may not be a priority. What is important is that an organisation makes good use of its resources, accounts for them correctly and follows good business practice. I have simply no idea how good EFDSS is at any of these.

I can't see a need for EFDSS to organise festivals, there are already plenty of festivals throughout the country and throughout the year. Festivals demand a lot of time and effort, represent a massive financial risk, and I suspect most are not hugely profitable. Any profits probably need to be ploughed back into the next year's festival. I'd be very surprised if there would be much surplus for EFDSS to cream off.

I'm not aware of much interest in competitions on the scale that CCE organises, although the occasional competition can be fun.

I the EFDSS wants to boost its revenue it could do more to engage with people active in folk world and encourage them to join. I've been active in folk music for 40 years - I joined EFDSS in the 1970s but let it lapse after a few years because, frankly, I couldn't see the point of it. Out of the people I know, some are members but many are not.

I'm told it has reinvented itself, and there is clearly now more emphasis on song, but I'm still struggling to discover from its website what it actually does. Most of its activities seem to be centred around C# House and it doesn't appear to be doing much in the regions - or if it is, it isn't communicating it very well.

I would expect EFDSS to do more to support grass-roots activities throughout the country. Perhaps not financial support (although that would be welcome - just what are they doing with that Arts Council grant?) but support in terms of guidance, for example on issues such as insurance, health and safety, PRS and child protection.

Until the new government scrapped it (although I think it is actually under review) the proposed Vetting and Barring Scheme might have required anyone performing on school premises to be registered. Was there any mention of this on the EFDSS website? Not even after I informed them of the outcome of my own discussions with the department involved (they agreed that a PTA event would not require registration - but only after some persuasion).

The EFDSS should be a source of information about events, but there are very few on its website. Why doesn't it provide a service like Webfeet does for e-ceilidh events? There's not even a link to it.

Subject: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:36 AM

There is a successful organisation[ in a business sense] in Ireland,called Comhaltas.
Comhaltas raise a lot of money through charging competitors, to enter competitions, they also run examinations that provide the organisation with revenue, they also provide tuition on an international basis, and a national basis in England, They organise fleadhs[ festivals]on a regional and national basis, these Fleadhs provide money for Comhaltas, and give the local econonomy a major boost, of course the spin off of the fleadhs particularly the national fleadh, are the thousands of musicians who congregate and share music., all of whom spend money in the fleadh town.
it has been stated that EFDSS do not receive the same amount of funding and that is a valid point.
Comhaltas are clearly an organisation that is run in a business like manner[raisng revenue is a priority], I understand there is much opposition to EFDSS being run in the same business like way as Comhaltas, and to some extent I agree That competitions have a down side.,there appears to be much improvement over the last 5 years at Cecil Sharp house,
however, is not a successful business model such as Comhaltas worth studying, to see if any of its ideas can be used by the EFDSS. Dick Miles