Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


EFDSS and good business practice

Related threads:
Eliza Carthy President of EFDSS (16)
The Amazing Story of Cecil Sharp House (23)
No Summer 'English Song & Dance' EFDSS (4)
EFDSS Sunday Club (9)
Cecil Sharp House Health & Safety Alert (28)
Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance (111)
EFDSS and the Carpenter Collection (36)
EFDSS awards funding for new music (61)
EFDSS: Alan Davey CBE as new board appointment (6)
Top International Award for EFDSS (13)
New Librarian for Cecil Sharp House (9)
Tech: trouble with the 'Full English' Website (32)
EFDSS Folk Song Conference 5/6 Oct 2013 (5)
EFDSS Full English (folk archive) web project (39)
Presidents of EFDSS (13)
VWML online: rare dance & tune sets (15)
Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo (76)
EFDSS The Full English (Folk Archive)Lottery Grant (31)
Alan James & Lucy Neal for EFDSS (2)
EFDSS has a YouTube channel (42)
New staff at EFDSS (11)
Vaughan Williams library gets MLA status (6)
EFDSS Arts Council England funding news (29)
Who is/ are the EFDSS? (91)
EFDSS sacking of Nick Hallam - wtf? (200)
SoH Israeli-backed attack on EFDSS! (39)
EFDSS Advantages and Disadvantages (61)
Marketing the EFDSS - Job going. (81)
EFDSS Membership (14)
EFDSS and competitions (113)
EFDSS Presidential Nominations (9)
EFDSS May Fete Saturday 17 May! (1)
English Folk Dance and Song Society (efdss) 2008 (35)
EFDSS New Chief Exec. (133)
EFDSS Wins Heritage Lottery Grant (34)
EFDSS: 'Folk free zone' (149)
What's Happening with EFDSS? (200)
Review: RVW Library change - EFDSS (5)
EFDSS Role in the 21st Century (57)
EFDSS, MU, PELs (9)
EFDSS - should I join? (35)
BS: EFDSS leader wanted! (6)
Tune Add: Some more tunes (11)


johnadams 28 Aug 10 - 06:18 AM
Vic Smith 28 Aug 10 - 05:27 AM
Old Vermin 27 Aug 10 - 02:23 PM
Desert Dancer 27 Aug 10 - 11:14 AM
Vic Smith 27 Aug 10 - 10:58 AM
Desert Dancer 27 Aug 10 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,LDT 27 Aug 10 - 08:15 AM
Bloke from Poole 27 Aug 10 - 08:00 AM
Mitch the Bass 27 Aug 10 - 07:18 AM
Manitas_at_home 27 Aug 10 - 06:10 AM
The Sandman 26 Aug 10 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,ecclescake 26 Aug 10 - 01:28 PM
The Sandman 26 Aug 10 - 01:10 PM
The Sandman 26 Aug 10 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 26 Aug 10 - 12:55 PM
The Sandman 26 Aug 10 - 12:54 PM
Desert Dancer 26 Aug 10 - 12:53 PM
Desert Dancer 26 Aug 10 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 26 Aug 10 - 12:31 PM
The Sandman 26 Aug 10 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 26 Aug 10 - 11:37 AM
johnadams 26 Aug 10 - 10:42 AM
Howard Jones 26 Aug 10 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,John Fraser of Carnoustie 26 Aug 10 - 08:10 AM
The Sandman 26 Aug 10 - 07:55 AM
Howard Jones 26 Aug 10 - 03:55 AM
johnadams 25 Aug 10 - 07:22 PM
Howard Jones 25 Aug 10 - 06:12 PM
johnadams 25 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM
The Sandman 25 Aug 10 - 01:12 PM
Howard Jones 25 Aug 10 - 01:11 PM
The Sandman 25 Aug 10 - 01:05 PM
Howard Jones 25 Aug 10 - 12:42 PM
The Sandman 25 Aug 10 - 11:27 AM
The Sandman 25 Aug 10 - 10:04 AM
Howard Jones 25 Aug 10 - 10:04 AM
Vic Smith 25 Aug 10 - 09:30 AM
Vic Smith 25 Aug 10 - 09:26 AM
George Papavgeris 25 Aug 10 - 09:20 AM
Vic Smith 25 Aug 10 - 09:18 AM
George Papavgeris 25 Aug 10 - 09:16 AM
The Sandman 25 Aug 10 - 08:57 AM
The Sandman 25 Aug 10 - 08:06 AM
Manitas_at_home 25 Aug 10 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,LDT 25 Aug 10 - 04:38 AM
mattkeen 25 Aug 10 - 04:28 AM
mattkeen 25 Aug 10 - 04:22 AM
Howard Jones 25 Aug 10 - 03:36 AM
Howard Jones 24 Aug 10 - 06:31 PM
The Sandman 24 Aug 10 - 06:11 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: johnadams
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:18 AM

They do have a most excellent marketing manager, even though she doesn't presently have a marketing director above her in the management chain.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Vic Smith
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:27 AM

Mr Vermin wrote:-

"Trying not to be too picky, but the first thing to leap out was that Verity Sharp presents on Radio 3, a BBC channel, not on BBC3 which is a 'yoof' television channel."


Certainly, a sad slip.... and anyway, if I wanted to describe Verity in a nutshell I would have gone for her excellent work as presenter of "The Culture Show" on BBC's 1 and 2 television. That is what she is best known for to the general public.

One reason for the mistake could be.... I heard somewhere on the grapevine.... that the EFDSS are without a publicity officer at the moment....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Old Vermin
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 02:23 PM

Trying not to be too picky, but the first thing to leap out was that Verity Sharp presents on Radio 3, a BBC channel, not on BBC3 which is a 'yoof' television channel.

Always easier to spot other people's minor errors than one's own, of course.

Interesting bit, for me, is "choreographic project for professional choreographers on morris and contemporary dance forms." Now why I have I immediately thought of Laurel Swift and Morris Offspring? I did of course manage to miss the project itself when it was going on in 2009.

Someone recently suggested doing eceilidh dance as a display.Anyone already done so?

Does the advocacy and lobbying include encouraging reform of the Public Entertainment Licensing nonsense, perchance?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 11:14 AM

snap!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:58 AM

Here is a press release /job advert circular from the EFDSS. I reproduce it in full below. I posted it on the Nick Hallam thread but it would seem to have equal relevance here as the majority of it states what the EFDSS itself considers that it is up to at the moment and as no-one employed by the EFDSS (as far as I know) has taken part in this discussion, it would seem to have a good use here:-

The EFDSS have announced a vacancy for a temporary marketing assistant.

See http://www.efdss.org/front/vacancies/vacancies/214217


ENGLISH FOLK DANCE AND SONG SOCIETY
TEMPORARY MARKETING ASSISTANT
(2-3 DAYS PER WEEK, DEPENDING ON WORKLOAD)

BACKGROUND INFORMATION

The EFDSS is a national folk arts development organisation. It is multi-faceted being a membership society with nearly 4000 members, an arts venue (Cecil Sharp House), an education, training and development agency, a publisher, an advocate and lobbyist, and the custodian of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, which is the only dedicated folk arts library and archive in the UK.

The Society is going through a major period of change. It was reviewed and restructured in 2007 with the objective of re-positioning itself as the leading folk arts agency in England.

To meet the aim of reviving the Society we are increasing and diversifying our activities to bring the folk arts to a wider public. During the past two years the Society has:-

• Received a grant of £154k from the Heritage Lottery Fund for a major archiving and national education project using six of the song collections in our archive (Take Six project).
• Introduced its own regular programme of events at Cecil Sharp House including The Irrepressible Tradition music season, showcasing the best new talent on the folk music circuit.
• Worked with partners to produce events e.g. Mary Neal Project, National Gallery, Sadler's Wells, BFI, Miles of Smiles, The Local, The London Gypsy Orchestra.
• 'EFDSS on the Move' – supporting programmes at the Cambridge, Sidmouth and Furness Folk Festivals, summer 2009.
• Introduced a Family Friendly programme of events.
• Invited external programmers such as BBC 3 broadcaster Verity Sharp, who curated 'Apple Day' in October 2009.
• Developed a visual arts programme.
• Developed a professional development programme including the appointment of an artist-in-residence post (visual artist) and run a choreographic project for professional choreographers on morris and contemporary dance forms.
• Expanded our education programme into new contexts and areas and is developing opportunities for training teachers in the folk arts.

Over the next 5 years EFDSS will continue to develop -
• Cecil Sharp House as the folk arts centre in London.
• Outreach and education programmes to impact on the national curriculum and the training of music and dance artists and teachers.
• Advocacy and lobbying on behalf of the folk arts working in association with other folk arts agencies and organisations.
• Develop partnerships with a broad range of organisations to attract new audiences and to widen the profile of the Society.
• Prepare for a major capital project to provide the library with increased and climatically suitable space for its ever growing collections.

In October 2009 EFDSS became a Regularly Funded Organisation of Arts Council England's Music Department. The Society is now looking to a whole new area of development as the Folk Development Agency for England and as part of this process is developing the Marketing Department to communicate the aims of the Society and to market the EFDSS programme of events and activities; both at Cecil Sharp House and beyond, to both a folk and a non-folk audience.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:57 AM

Here is how the EFDSS summarizes their activities as background to a current position opening (link to pdf; there's a copy online at fRoots). One reason for joining, among others, is to support those activitites.

~ Becky in Tucson

The EFDSS is a national folk arts development organisation. It is multi-faceted being a membership society with nearly 4000 members, an arts venue (Cecil Sharp House), an education, training and development agency, a publisher, an advocate and lobbyist, and the custodian of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, which is the only dedicated folk arts library and archive in the UK.

The Society is going through a major period of change. It was reviewed and restructured in 2007 with the objective of re-positioning itself as the leading folk arts agency in England.

To meet the aim of reviving the Society we are increasing and diversifying our activities to bring the folk arts to a wider public. During the past two years the Society has:-

• Received a grant of £154k from the Heritage Lottery Fund for a major archiving and national education project using six of the song collections in our archive (Take Six project).
• Introduced its own regular programme of events at Cecil Sharp House including The Irrepressible Tradition music season, showcasing the best new talent on the folk music circuit.
• Worked with partners to produce events e.g. Mary Neal Project, National Gallery, Sadler's Wells, BFI, Miles of Smiles, The Local, The London Gypsy Orchestra.
• 'EFDSS on the Move' – supporting programmes at the Cambridge, Sidmouth and Furness Folk Festivals, summer 2009.
• Introduced a Family Friendly programme of events.
• Invited external programmers such as BBC 3 broadcaster Verity Sharp, who curated 'Apple Day' in October 2009.
• Developed a visual arts programme.
• Developed a professional development programme including the appointment of an artist-in-residence post (visual artist) and run a choreographic project for professional choreographers on morris and contemporary dance forms.
• Expanded our education programme into new contexts and areas and is developing opportunities for training teachers in the folk arts.

Over the next 5 years EFDSS will continue to develop -
• Cecil Sharp House as the folk arts centre in London.
• Outreach and education programmes to impact on the national curriculum and the training of music and dance artists and teachers.
• Advocacy and lobbying on behalf of the folk arts working in association with other folk arts agencies and organisations.
• Develop partnerships with a broad range of organisations to attract new audiences and to widen the profile of the Society.
• Prepare for a major capital project to provide the library with increased and climatically suitable space for its ever growing collections.

In October 2009 EFDSS became a Regularly Funded Organisation of Arts Council England's Music Department. The Society is now looking to a whole new area of development as the Folk Development Agency for England and as part of this process is developing the Marketing Department to communicate the aims of the Society and to market the EFDSS programme of events and activities; both at Cecil Sharp House and beyond, to both a folk and a non-folk audience.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 08:15 AM

No I'm in the South East on the 'coast', in a cultural cul-de-sac.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Bloke from Poole
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 08:00 AM

Don't know about the others, the Purbeck Festival isn't a dance festival. There is a dance weekend for country dance, but I wouldn't describe it as a festival.

Coming from the dark dance side I have wondered about joining the EFDSS and haven't found enough there to interest me. Some might find some irony there... C# house is too far, I'd be a regular if it weren't.

There is a bunch of organisations, at least in the west, covering different aspects - Halsway Manor, Wren, Devon Squeezebox (LDT - are you in the west?), and while I'm pretty sure they all talk to each other, I'm not aware of an umbrella organisation.

EFDSS sounds like it should fit that position, but doesn't.

Malcolm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 07:18 AM

Good Soldier Schweik said "...at present there is only one Folk dance festival, Eastbourne."

Not Southam or Lichfield or Countesthorpe or Purbeck or Ipswich?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 06:10 AM

You're not discussing anything - you're repeating a mantra!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 02:43 PM

guest Eccles cake, be kind enough to let those who wish to discuss it do so.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: GUEST,ecclescake
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:28 PM

What is it about Dick Miles and the EFDSS? Did a descendant of Cecil's once tread on his corns? For feck's sake, Dick, give it a rest and get a bloody life!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:10 PM

I am sure that EFDSS could run a dance festival at little cost and make a profit for the society,[which was how Sidmouth originated]at present there is only one Folk dance festival, Eastbourne.
That would seem to me like a good business proposition.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:08 PM

Peter, when are you going to prove Comhaltas are unbusiness like with details?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:55 PM

Having any central organisation will bring the danger of it being perceived as only serving the area near it's headquarters or being 'some of it's members' rather than 'the sum of it's members'.

I think NPU in my example has made a fair go at putting that perception to rest. As much as they can anyway.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:54 PM

Peter, just clarify your comments giving facts and statistics etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:53 PM

also should have added -- I'm an EFDSS member

~ Becky in Tucson


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:33 PM

When you're making a link, you have to put the "http://" in the url...

Na Piobairi Uillean website

----

The Country Dance and Song Society in the U.S., has had some parallel struggles: they've been around a long time and some folks judge them on their past, not their present. They're based in the northeast and run a series of dance and music camps in Massachusetts, which are as out of reach to many here as London may seem to many of you. For for some they have been associated mainly with old fogeys doing boring English country dancing.

But, they've done some good work in recent years to overcome this image and be more broadly useful:

- they are probably the best resource (most comprehensive and helpful) for purchasing books and recordings on American and English country dance in the U.S.

- they provide small grants (often matching grants) and loans to organizations and individuals for projects like publications, event startups, etc.

- they provide networking through their member directory (this may be becoming less needed since the boom of the web), and can always be contacted directly for this sort of info, too. Their online listing of "group affiliates" is a good one.

- group affiliates (member organizations) can receive assistance with attaining non-profit (tax-exempt) corporate status

- individual members have access to Callerlab resources (including individual insurance) through the CDSS affiliation with that organization

- membership in CDSS by groups is one of the best ways to get access to group liability insurance for dances and other events

- they have facilitated/assisted with regional networking/information conferences, such as the upcoming Southeast Dance Leadership Conference (there have been two or three of these previously in other locations around the country). I would not be surprised to find that CDSS is providing some of the funding for the small scholarships available to attend the SE conference.

- they consciously work to include a reasonably geographically diverse group in their board membership (a challenge, since board members have to commit to getting themselves (at least) to the northeast for the annual meeting -- some financial assistance is available for this

- in recent years they have had a great initiative to promote country dance and song among young people. They have hired a youth intern who, among other things, is a great face for the organization on Facebook, and they've had one or two networking/informational conferences on the topic (conferences for young people, not just about them).

- they're turning their web site into a really useful portal to a lot of information and resources

I think that the key role of a nationally central organization like CDSS or EFDSS is to be useful to the local individuals and organizations in doing what they do, not to do it for them.

CDSS does this with no grant or government funding, just the proceeds of their camps and individual donations. They have a staff of 12 now, of which maybe a little more than half are employed full time (the camps do take the work of one dedicated full-time staff member, as well the work of parts of several others).

~ Becky in Tucson
disclaimer: former CDSS board member


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:31 PM

I don't think there's a problem with you asking clarification but there is with you behaving like a foul-mouthed bully. And not for the first time I may add.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:24 PM

Peter ,why should I shout that down, na piobari uillean is a perfectly good business model, they do an excellent job.
unlike you I also believe that Comhaltas are run in a business like manner.
I think it perfectly reasonable to ask you to provide facts to prove your assertion that Comhaltas are not an example of good business practice.
there are a number of things i dislike about Comhaltas and their director general, but being unbusiness like is not something Iwould accuse them of, can you please back up your comments.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 11:37 AM

I'll give it another go, hopefully without being shouted down.

If you at the Irish situation for comparison I would suggest to have a look Na Piobairi Uilleann instead of Comhaltas.

Na Piobairi Uilleann was formed in 1968 to promote the Irish Pipes, deliberately separate from Comhaltas (for all intrigue and turf wars released on them by the bigger organisation I suggest you look elsewhere). Under the chairmanship and guidance of Breandán Breatnach work was set in motion and eventually a headquarters was obtained in Henrietta st in Dublin.

Now, I won't run through the entire history of the organisation but can summarise that for a long time they struggled to get adequate funding and the headquarters, which the organisation set out to restore and make fit for their aims, weighed the organisation down financially and organisationally for a long time.

They were often referred to as 'the Dublin Pipers' (with a heavy emphasis on 'Dublin') because they were simply unable, for financial and organisational reasons, to cover the whole country.

Now, sometime during the late eighties (if I recall correctly, maybe early nineties) a decision was put to the membership to transform the organisation and incorporate it. This idea was embraced.

Approaching the aims of the organisation as a business (while still registered as charity for tax/donation purposes and no doubt helped greatly by the economic boom and rising interest in the pipes in the wake of Riverdance) has given the organisation a tremendous boost.

Full time staff is now able to provide support for pipers all over the world, a large number of publications have been produced, recordings have been put on the market, a shop with relevant materials to serve the membership is operated via the web, musical events get organised, the Piperlink tour is travelling the world (please google that yourself). All generating income for the organisation (sponsorships and Arts Council funding are ongoing sources of funding as well).

At the same time the Georgian building in Henrietta st has been restored to the highest standard and I think there's talk of expanding to premises next door. A library and archive have been established, series of high profile lectures are being run.

It is a definite story of success and expansion. In my opinion a far better model for how things can work for an organisation involved in (the promotion and preservation of)traditional music than the one Comhaltas can provide.

Na Piobairi Uillean website


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: johnadams
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:42 AM

Hi Howard,

The British Mountaineering Council is an interesting comparison. They obviously have a large membership base with subscriptions totalling well over £1 million last year. Add into that the quarter million pound grant from the Sports Council and you can see why they operate with a surplus each year and presently have £2 million cash in hand. Well supported and well managed - to the extent that they can get on with the work of the council.


I think the EFDSS should aim towards being in a similar position so that it could get on with the work of becoming the lead body for the country's folk arts, but it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation really. You want to see results before you join, and the income from the present membership is not, on its own, enough to finance achieving all those results. True, ACE funding has arrived but it was only announced in the Spring and who knows if it's actually arrived yet. If it has arrived, it will have a number of outcomes attached and we have yet to see if those outcomes match yours and my expectations of what the society should be doing. I hope they will.

But... who knows where the ACE cuts will strike in the next round. Will folk music stand a good chance of not being in the firing line? I'd recommend that the society puts a hard hat on :-) or at least be careful not to over reach, just in case.

It appears to me that the steps the society are taking are steady and confident ones and are in the areas of education and library web resources, two areas that have featured ad nauseum in Mudcat posts over the years. Given that they have made these strides I am feeling more and more that they are getting enough strength to deliver on other fronts but it won't happen overnight with the wave of a magic wand.

I also think that the society has a little way to go before it sets itself up as some sort of expert consultancy. Most of the knowledge and expertise on the folk scene exists outside the society and the main way that the EFDSS can assist people is via networking. I'm assuming and hoping that this will come as part of the adoption of the roles of Folk Arts England but again, not overnight and not without some support, particularly from people like you and me. It's heartening to see the young folkies joining up and getting involved.

I think the society is at a pivotal point right now and has the best chance to prove its worth than it has had for a long time. I'm praying it doesn't cock it up and so far the signs are good. If a bunch of people lend some support now by joining, buying stuff, supporting wherever possible then ultimately we'll all get something out of it, even those of us four hours drive north of the Camden Town Folk Arts Centre.

These days I'm not at the centre of EFDSS business, being more on the edge looking in, so I've probably not dealt with all of the points you've raised in this thread but right now I'm quite busy on archive work and can't spare too much time to think it all through.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:20 AM

OK Dick, I know your views on this, but we had this discussion about the Library only last month. I'm just trying to stop going over old ground.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: GUEST,John Fraser of Carnoustie
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:10 AM

GSS - What do you take to mean 'modern folk songs'? Do you mean that they simply buy up the Bob Dylan / Waterboys etc songbooks from their local Waterstones, or do something else? Should they go out 'collecting'? Who from?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 07:55 AM

For the purposes of this discussion I'd like to take it as read that the Library is a Good Thing and focus on the Society's other activities.
yes, but to remain a good thing, it needs to expand,and possibly include modern folk songs, it caanot do that at the moment without repairing its present premises or partly relocating[which requires finance]


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 03:55 AM

I'm not suggesting that EFDSS should try to replace what Ryburn, EATMT and similar organisations are doing in the regions.   It could be offering more support to organisations trying to run folk events. I don't necessarily mean financial support, but by providing guidance on best practice, licensing law, PRS, etc.

I'm President of a mountaineering club. The British Mountaineering Council provides lots of support for clubs, including guidance on liability and insurance, draft club constitution, child protection issues and lots more, all available from its website. It organises workshops for clubs to discuss these things in more detail. It even provides funding, with the help of a grant from the Sports Council - my own club has received a grant to help it redesign its website, and grants for training days with professional instructors. These are the sorts of things that EFDSS could be doing.

For the purposes of this discussion I'd like to take it as read that the Library is a Good Thing and focus on the Society's other activities.

I have no complaints about events taking place at the House, as you say it would be extraordinary if there weren't. However these are the only activities which seem to get publicised, apart from a few arts collaborations or educational projects which are also London-based. I'm afraid I'm rather cynical about those.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: johnadams
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 07:22 PM

Howard wrote:

Johnny, I missed the survey. Where was it publicised? Still, at least it's a step in the right direction.

It will be if the info is used. With the departure of NH I'm not sure who is going to pick up the baton.

My impression of EFDSS from nearly 200 miles away is that it is doing for London what Ryburn 3 Step is doing in Yorkshire, and what other organisations such as East Anglian Music Trust are doing their own regions. Which would be fine, except that EFDSS is supposed to be the national body.

I would go further and say that the regional organisations have stepped into the shoes I would have expected EFDSS to fill. The problem is that not all parts of the country have such an organisation, and the scope of their activities, their resources and perhaps their skills are very variable.


For the EFDSS to do what EATMT or R3S or WREN etc. are doing while based in London would be very costly and not very efficient. What would you expect the society to do regionally and how would they be expected to fund it? Given that there are no longer any branches they have to find another role in regional support. Perhaps identifying best practice and helping areas who have no development group would be a way forward, but it needs funding - either by ACE funding or by membership subs.

I agree that EFDSS is the organisation best placed to be taken seriously as the national representative of folk arts. I really do wish it well, which is why I participate in discussion like these. I would like to see it doing more (actually, doing anything would be a start) to support the activities I'm involved in.

I think "doing anything" is a bit harsh. Those of us who have been paying our subs, putting in volunteer hours, etc. have kept an important archive and library resource supported and, more importantly, in this country. I know of one American academic who reputedly had a blank institutional cheque in his possession just waiting to buy up the VWML and ship it to America. We have also underwritten the publishing of a number of books of songs, tunes, research and educational material. There's been a thriving education department. Although I wasn't hugely impressed with its approach during my tenure, it was there and seems to be improving under the new education director (thanks to a bit of funding at last!).

Even if I were inclined to join, how could I participate when everything seems to be centred on C# House?

Aren't you looking only at the events? It would be strange if there were no events at the House but the activities of the society are wider than just events. I live farther than you from Camden Town but I'm still contributing in small ways to the work of the society and seeing it get stronger. I'm not uncritical of the society but I'm not expecting miracles or instant gratification - just hoping that it will all come together in good time. I would encourage anybody who has a far sighted view of the folk arts to support the society. If it's good enough for Steve Heap to recommend that Folk Arts England ACE funding be diverted to it, then it's good enough for me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 06:12 PM

Johnny, I missed the survey. Where was it publicised? Still, at least it's a step in the right direction.

My impression of EFDSS from nearly 200 miles away is that it is doing for London what Ryburn 3 Step is doing in Yorkshire, and what other organisations such as East Anglian Music Trust are doing their own regions. Which would be fine, except that EFDSS is supposed to be the national body.

I would go further and say that the regional organisations have stepped into the shoes I would have expected EFDSS to fill. The problem is that not all parts of the country have such an organisation, and the scope of their activities, their resources and perhaps their skills are very variable.

I agree that EFDSS is the organisation best placed to be taken seriously as the national representative of folk arts. I really do wish it well, which is why I participate in discussion like these. I would like to see it doing more (actually, doing anything would be a start) to support the activities I'm involved in.

Even if I were inclined to join, how could I participate when everything seems to be centred on C# House?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: johnadams
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM

Howard said:

I wonder what the Society intends to do to make more attractive to all those people active in the folk world who aren't currently members. Perhaps it should run a survey to discover how it is perceived and what people would like to see it do. It can then (if it wishes) make the changes from within.

The recently departed and much discussed Nick Hallam did just that and you obviously missed it. I don't know how widely it travelled but I heard that the response was enough to be helpful.

I'm very much in agreement with your views about the society connecting with the grass roots and until recently there were some very encouraging signs, mostly from he who may not be discussed.

As to changing the society from within into something one would like it to be, that's exactly what I tried to do in the decade I spent on the council. Reasons?

a) There was no other organisation which was anywhere near what I thought should be supporting the folk arts except perhaps Folk Arts England and I didn't think that they were headed in quite the right direction, having quite a strong commercial side but no academic dimension and no publishing.

b) It had a library, a journal, a stagnant but potentially good publishing house and was vaguely perceived amongst the arts hierarchy, including the DCMS, that it was a lead body for folk academia (even though they never thought of funding it).

c) It had a history (somewhat chequered in recent decades) which could be built on.

I'm a society supporter but I still have some concerns about the way things are being organised. Yes, C#H needs to be a thriving centre and a showcase, especially for the young folk acts, but in a way that makes it something more than a North London Folk Arts Centre. I can't get there much myself, living in West Yorkshire, but then I can't get into the West End much or to the National Theatre, etc.

There does need to be a regional dimension. Dick keeps going on about branches and although he's not wrong, it's too late now. There'll be no EFDSS branch in our neck of the woods because we've done everything needed already with our own Ryburn 3 Step. Nick Hallam had some great ideas but he's gone so we must wait and see what, if anything, wings its way from the House in the near future.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 01:12 PM

the first Sidmouth festival was a FOLK dance festival, that might be another option, start an EFDSS festival, that is initially a Folk dance festival, and use the previous development of Sidmouth[ which later included song and crafts] as a role model, if the first year is successful.
nothing ventured nothing gained.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 01:11 PM

Vic, I have some reservations about the ethics of joining an organisation with the intention of changing it from what it is into something I would like it to be. I would rather join an organisation which, in broad terms, already matches my values and provides me with what I require. Otherwise, I am reminded of those people who move to the country and then try to stop the bells ringing and the cocks crowing.

I wonder what the Society intends to do to make more attractive to all those people active in the folk world who aren't currently members. Perhaps it should run a survey to discover how it is perceived and what people would like to see it do. It can then (if it wishes) make the changes from within.

As for becoming an active participant in its activities, since these all appear to revolve around C# House, how can someone do that if they don't live within convenient reach of London?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 01:05 PM

Howard, the benefits, would be this.
1. running a one day festival, publicity and revenue for EFDSS, Plus an opportunity to recruit new members, EFDSS used to use Sidmouth as an opportunity to recruit new members[ do you not remember?]
2 . musical benefits, many more people playing the music, standards of competence rising considerably[ this has been the case in Ireland as a result of Comhaltas methods]
The EFDSS may not be in financial difficulties at the moment ,it still needs every penny it can get and cannot rely upon handouts for ever, it needs to expand its library[which it cannot do in its present situation] this will require additional money either to purchase a property near to its existing one or somewhere else, that only one reason why the EFDSS needs every good business role model it can find.
the objectives of the society are to promote and encourage folk song and dance, I believe having one festival as a flagship for EFDSS would promote their objectives.
tell me where would we be now if EFDSS hadnt started running Sidmouth in 1955 and which they managed to do for 33 years
the EFDSS also suffers at the moment from being seen as london centric[which it is]and this needs to be rectified


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 12:42 PM

There are two sides to a business model: revenue and cost. You keep focussing on revenue but ignore the cost side. How much would it cost to set up the infrastructure to provide tuition, hold examinations and run competitions on a nationwide basis?

It is not good business sense to invest resources in activities which will not generate a good return. Ideally, the return should not just be financial but should advance the objectives of the organisation.

Even if they could be run on a cost-effective basis, what would the musical benefits be? You seem to be putting these ideas forwards as fundraising exercises for the EFDSS rather because they would benefit folk music. You admit to having reservations about them from a musical perspective.

I'm sure the EFDSS could do with more money, but it is apparently not in financial difficulties. Wouldn't it be more helpful to focus on what it could do to promote its objectives?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 11:27 AM

i am only advocating them strongly because it is a good way of raising revenue, therefore it is good business sense, i do have reservations about competitions and homeogeonisation of style.
tuition can be handled differently from the comhaltas model, but can still be useful.
examinations raise revenue, and they can be handled differently, by excluding marks for style.
styles are something people shouldbe exposed to through listening ,perhapsas part of tuition then they should be allowed to make up their own minds, how they wish to play., not be encouraged to play a certain way through a biased marking system


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:04 AM

good points Vic, but even if i was elected I doubt I would be able to do a good job, mainly because of my distant geographical location.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:04 AM

Dick, I don't think those are examples of "best practice". Best practice is not so much what you do as how you do it.

I agree these are all things EFDSS could do. Whether they should is another matter. Whether they could is questionable. Comhaltas works in a very different environment where there is considerably more interest in traditional culture than there is in England, and is funded accordingly.

The question is, what could EFDSS be doing to improve folk music in England? In my view, with its national remit it should be doing those things which other organisations and individuals are unable to do.

Festivals: leaving aside the separate question of whether a festival would be a good fundraiser, there's no shortage of festivals, so there's no need for the EFDSS to step in.

Sessions: these are thriving in most areas, probably more so than folk clubs. Again, no need for the EFDSS.

Tuition, competitions, workshops and instrument hire would probably depend on having local branches, possibly with their own premises, to run them. Perhaps that would be a good thing, but does the EFDSS have the resources to run a branch network again? I thought you had been rather critical in the past of the standardisation imposed by Comhaltas' regime of tuition and competition, so I am puzzled that you are advocating these so strongly. Perhaps what EFDSS could do is provide a register of those individuals and organisations who do provide tuition.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:30 AM

George said

"You "read" like Obi Wan Kenobi in your last sentence, Vic! :-) "


I'd like to put it down as a pause for thought, but actually it was a slip of the finger!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:26 AM

One thing is certain.... Complaining about the policies and activities of the EFDSS on Mudcat will not make one iota of difference. To influence that organisation, you would need to:-
* Join it
* Contact those in authority at the EFDSS to make your opinions known and to justify those opinions
* Become an active participant in their activities.
* ... And when your activities becomes noticed, put yourself up for election for a position on their board in the hope that you will be elected.

Then you can start to promulgate your ideas and have a chance of influencing things there.
Everything else, I'm afraid, is just so much hot air.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:20 AM

You "read" like Obi Wan Kenobi in your last sentence, Vic! :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:18 AM

One thing is certain.... Complaining about the policy of the EFDSS on Mudcat will not make one iota of difference. To influence that organisation join would need to:
*


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:16 AM

Dick, I am not so sure about your suggestion that EFDSS try running a festival again. First, I would question your guess that 80% of members would attend, as there are a number of factors involved in deciding whether to go to a festival or not: time of year in combination with own holiday and other plans / cost / one's own opinion of the advertised lineup / plus some people simply don't like going to festivals, preferring smaller events, sessions etc.

Second, the organisation of a festival requires a number of non-musical / non-folk-related skills to do with organisation, management of artists and stewards and punters, security, health & safety, financial, promotional etc, most of which may well not exist within the EFDSS today - there is no reason why they should.

Third, most of the festivals I know are running pretty much hand-to-mouth and so the idea would be very risky as a fundraiser. Some of the larger festivals might break even or better (I personally doubt it), but small-to-midsize ones are certainly suffering. Brampton Live had to be cancelled this year, Wheaton-Aston are no more, Banbury was in the red for a period, even Sidmouth had to draw in its horns a few years back.

If the EFDSS wanted some involvement with the festival world, it should be for reasons other than fundraising, and it would probably best done through sponsorship (general or a specific concert), or maintaining a "club tent" as happens in other countries (thinking of Australia here) and so on.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 08:57 AM

no, manitas, it does not .
furthermore o murchu[gay marriages] was speaking in a private capacity as a TD not in his role of DIRECTOR GENERAL of comhaltas, quite unfair AND INAPPROPRIATE to drag in his opinions, on a matter unrelated to COMHALTAS.
Best practice is providing international music tuition, running festivals, having branches, providing workshops, providing seisuins in the winter and summer, loaning out instruments, running music examinations , a lot of the things that the EFDSS used to do, but now do not.
EFDSS do not have branches ,they do not run festivals they do not run competitions[apart from one songwriting competition]they do n0t run musical exams, THEY DO NOT PROVIDE National TUITION, Comhaltas does all these things


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 08:06 AM

Howard, I suggested that EFDSS tried running one festival again, this would be the way[imo] to begin.
possibly a one day festival, possibly two, I disagree with you about a low key festival not appealing.
if it was marketed as a fundraiser for EFDSS, I guess 80 percent of members would attend, then try and appeal to dancers as well as singers, and then to those singers who like to participate in singarounds, with perhaps one major concert, plus all day workshops.
there are a number of towns that have good track records of hosting festivals and have suitable infrastructure,some of these were originally EFDSS festivals and might be worth considering at a different time of year.
Whitby,Norwich[UEA]? , Broadstairs, Lancaster[ Formerly Maritime festival] the former Four Fools Venue, all have suitable venues, and some of those have schools which might be available during holiday time[easter, half term or summer holidays.
but there are many other possible venues other than those I have mentioned , Which already have a festival and might be happy to accomodate a festival at Easter or some other quiet[festival wise] time , there only seems to be one[gosport] festival at easter at the present time .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 07:51 AM

Dick,

Does best practice include the 'Gay marriage' and 'Battle of Clontarf' scandals discussed in earlier threads? I'm pretty sure that EFDSS shouldn't be emulating Comhaltas here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 04:38 AM

Sorry to interrupt your argument. I'll probably get ignored but wanted to say something....practical.

For me it take a rather expensive train journey to get to Csharp house plus I work weekdays and I don't fancy travelling late in the evening in london on my own.
I did try going to a gig there (coz I desperately wanted to see an act on but very nearly missed the last train home coz of the time it took to get across london).
So I'd love it if they did some saturday afternoon gigs or more all day events.

Oh and some Melodeon/concertina workshops would be nice. ;)

Kind Regards,
a 'young' person


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: mattkeen
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 04:28 AM

I thought the charity experience might be relevant Dick as the EFDSS is a charity!
But there you go, silly me


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: mattkeen
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 04:22 AM

Online shop


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:36 AM

Dick, The problem with a low-key festival without top-name (and therefore expensive) guests is that they attract fewer people and can charge less. The financial risk may also be less, but it would still demand an investment of time and resources, probably including paid staff time. Is that a good use of the Society's resources, in return for what would probably be a fairly small profit?

You might get some big-name performers willing to donate their services to a one-off event, but you appear to be arguing for the Society to get back into organising multiple festivals on a long-term basis.

Besides, is raising revenue the main issue? Of course, additional funds are always welcome, but according to the January 2010 Board Minutes the "EFDSS had a healthy cash position in line with budget". To me, the more interesting question is what its doing with the resources it already has, which include a substantial grant from the Arts Council.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 06:31 PM

Mattkeen, you quote the EFDSS's objectives, but what I'd like to know is what it's actually doing to achieve them.

Can we take it as read that the VWL is a Good Thing? It was discussed at length only recently, and I'd prefer to focus on EFDSS's other activities.

It's right and proper that EFDSS makes full use of C# House to put on events and courses. However these are of interest only to a small minority who live in reach of Camden Town. The same goes for the shop (I assume you're talking about a physical shop - the online shop doesn't seem to offer much which isn't available from other specialist retailers). What is it doing for the rest of the country? Until it spreads its activities wider, it will find it hard to shake off its image as Camden Town Folk Club, and hard to attract more members.

Many of its reported activities seem to be concerned with establishing links with the contemporary and community dance world. Interesting no doubt, educational certainly, and possibly helpful in bringing folk music into the arts establishment which may lead to further funding. I'm sure such work has its place. However I struggle to see much relevance to the grass-roots activities which most folk enthusiasts are involved in on a day to day basis.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: EFDSS and good business practice
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 06:11 PM

the difference between the EFDSS festival and other festivals would be that it is a specific fund raiser for the EFDSS, this would make it unique.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 4 December 4:18 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.