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So what is *Traditional* Folk Music?

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GUEST, PRSm 02 Nov 06 - 11:07 AM
Scrump 02 Nov 06 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,PRSM 02 Nov 06 - 10:12 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 02 Nov 06 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,PRSM 02 Nov 06 - 07:14 AM
GUEST 02 Nov 06 - 04:05 AM
GUEST, PRS member 01 Nov 06 - 05:46 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Nov 06 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Bob Coltman 01 Nov 06 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,Bob Coltman 01 Nov 06 - 05:16 PM
The Sandman 01 Nov 06 - 09:03 AM
GUEST, PRS Member 01 Nov 06 - 05:42 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 06 - 04:45 AM
GUEST 01 Nov 06 - 04:32 AM
MartinRyan 31 Oct 06 - 05:39 PM
GUEST 31 Oct 06 - 04:51 PM
dick greenhaus 31 Oct 06 - 03:16 PM
Shaneo 31 Oct 06 - 03:08 PM
GUEST 31 Oct 06 - 02:53 PM
Desert Dancer 31 Oct 06 - 02:46 PM
Big Mick 31 Oct 06 - 12:30 PM
Shaneo 31 Oct 06 - 12:21 PM
Big Mick 31 Oct 06 - 07:58 AM
Shaneo 31 Oct 06 - 07:55 AM
Big Mick 31 Oct 06 - 07:30 AM
GUEST 31 Oct 06 - 07:03 AM
GUEST,Rathingle 30 Oct 06 - 12:25 PM
Soldier boy 30 Oct 06 - 08:57 AM
The Sandman 27 Oct 06 - 10:53 AM
Folkiedave 27 Oct 06 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,Bob Coltman 27 Oct 06 - 07:54 AM
JulieF 27 Oct 06 - 07:44 AM
Folkiedave 27 Oct 06 - 04:26 AM
GUEST 27 Oct 06 - 03:42 AM
GUEST,PRS member 26 Oct 06 - 05:05 AM
The Sandman 25 Oct 06 - 01:11 PM
The Sandman 25 Oct 06 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Bob Coltman 25 Oct 06 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Bob Coltman 25 Oct 06 - 10:10 AM
GUEST, PRS Member 25 Oct 06 - 08:52 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 06 - 07:14 AM
GUEST,Bob Coltman 24 Oct 06 - 08:39 PM
The Sandman 24 Oct 06 - 10:05 AM
Scrump 24 Oct 06 - 08:33 AM
The Sandman 24 Oct 06 - 07:29 AM
GUEST 24 Oct 06 - 03:04 AM
GUEST,Mike Miller 24 Oct 06 - 12:52 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 23 Oct 06 - 10:50 PM
GUEST,Mike Miller 23 Oct 06 - 10:01 PM
Soldier boy 23 Oct 06 - 09:21 PM
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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST, PRSm
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 11:07 AM

That's fine for 'folk' but not for 'traditional' becuase what happens is people put 'trad' on their CDs and then, because 'trad' has a legal definition, the work's ownership can become lost, and rightful payments not made.

It's happened scores of times and its very hard to re-establish ownership once lazy people have committed this crime - and yes, it is actually a crime in law. It's called theft.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Scrump
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 10:27 AM

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' - Through the Looking Glass, Lewis Carroll

That's just what I intend to do with "folk" and "traditional". It's the only way folks!

:-)


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,PRSM
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 10:12 AM

I agree, Ron. Personally I'm suspicious of any romanticisation of The Tradition: This notion that a process existed which somehow created the songs, that the talent lay with the singers not the writers, and that's therefore where reverence is due. That's wrong. The songs were created by talented people who had something to say, just as songs are today. The bad ones never got handed on. The good ones were, and occasionally they got better in the process, more often they got more confused and corrupted. Words were lost, tunes were simplified, floating verses added to muddle the listener. Many trad songs you hear on records or in clubs today are actually quite poor in pure song terms if you stop to examine them (though there are many that are pure gold). Sometimes spoiled ones were or are rescued by talented singers and revitalised, and then of course credit is due - but it was only worth dong that if the song still had something worth rescuing - and if it did, that's down to the original writer, not those who've mussed it up over the ages, and made it need revitalising!

But Jim's definition is valid and well recognised. So is yours. But they're not at all the same thing. Hence why we now have to bow to the inevitable, drop the word, and find new terms that say what we each mean.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 09:48 AM

"Ron's is based on the fact that somebody has come along and decided to call their particular music 'folk' or 'traditional' so we can no longer use the term – or, at the very least, we have to define what we mean by what we mean. As far as I can see, Ron's argument makes a nonsense of the language. "

That is not at all what I said.   I am not sure how you came up with that interpretation Jim.

With all due respect Jim, I was trying to account for the "historical" aspects that you stated - "how the those songs were created, transmitted and altered and re-shaped to suit the people who performed them, listened to them and identified with them." IF that "perfectly workable definition" that has existed for some time is accurate, then you should be able to apply it to contemporary music to define "folk".

The arguement that a tradition "dies" simply because of changes in technology, habit, etc. does not hold water. Traditions are constantly evolving and adapting based on the criteria that you stated.

What I was trying to say in my earlier posts is that in order to define "folk" or "traditional" we need to look at the process that creates such songs, the times in which they were created, and how the songs were used. Most people simply disregard contemporary music because it does not fit THEIR definition based on DATED criteria. What bothers me about most of the definitions is that they do not take into account other factors of the individuals and the time period in which they are created.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,PRSM
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 07:14 AM

Jim
My definitions are not rooted in the market place, but they do, however, attempt to take account of the legal situation - which yours doesn't.

You suggested yourself that the term traditional was redundant - partly because the process which gave it that name is now so pulluted by technology as to have ceased working, and partly because so many people have decided it means something else that there's no point in sticking to the old definition.

A man may call a knife a spoon if he wishes. He will be misunderstood - but only until a majority of the people he speaks to make the same change. Then the language will have changed, and his term will be the correct one. Now THAT's a folk process!

The standard historical definition had its place, at the time it was defined. At that point the music it described was developed in isolation. Songs existed like species in an ecosystem. Sometimes the newts found a new pond and then a new community would spring up, and some of the newts made it back over the hill to add their gene-pool back into the old strain - and so the songs developed.

The process was slow and - assuming one had a time machine - relatively easy to trace back to the original maker.

But 100 years ago all that changed. First of audio recording, then radio, gramaphone records, CDs and now the internet, made the passing of songs lateral as well as linear - to create a much much more complex 'folk process.'

It didn't happen overnight, which is why people went on using the term Traditional without noticing what was happening to the word. And they were happy to include in thier definition all manner of aspects which lay outwith the 'official' definition.

Now we have a situation where only a tiny minority of people even know what the 'official' definition is. Read this tread again, and you can see how confused the picture now is.

I recognise your definition. But if you merely use the word Traditional, many people will misunderstand you - because they mean something else by the word.

If you were happy to change your term to one that has, for now, not lost its meaning - for example 'collected' everyone would know what you meant.

It's a pain, and maybe a shame - but that's language for you all over!

PS can you clarify the Reilly / Munnelly / Coulter route for me? I'm not sure I follow what happened. Has Coulter got copyright of the work (impossible in the UK - well, the courts would have to sort it), or only of his arrangement of the song?

PPS Walter was right when he was referring to songs that come to him the way they did. But he'd not have said the same thing about a song written (assuming it could have been in his repertoire) by Paul McCartney!

PPPS Agian, your defintion: "created (largely anonymously), transmitted (largely orally) and altered and re-shaped to suit the people who performed them" only works pre-audio recording technology. It doesn't hold water today - and anyway, a lot of songs even back then WERE written down, both by writers and by 'unofficial' collectors - and that's one of the ways the newts multiplied!


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 04:05 AM

Sorry folks, your arguments don't hold water.
PR Member's definition seems to be rooted firmly in the market place; Ron's is based on the fact that somebody has come along and decided to call their particular music 'folk' or 'traditional' so we can no longer use the term – or, at the very least, we have to define what we mean by what we mean. As far as I can see, Ron's argument makes a nonsense of the language. Some time in the seventies I stopped using the term 'folk' because of the largely commercial mis-use of the term; I can see no reason to retreat from the term 'traditional'. You are all ignoring the fact that there is, and has been for quite a long time, a perfectly workable definition of both 'folk' and 'traditional' which was applied to an easily identifiable poetic and musical group of songs and based on how those songs were created (largely anonymously), transmitted (largely orally) and altered and re-shaped to suit the people who performed them, listened to them and identified with them ( I use the term 'largely' because there are a few exceptions to this definition, but certainly not enough to invalidate it).
If you wish to re-define 'folk' or 'traditional' you have first to address the standard, historical definition and either disprove it or expand it to include the new material, stating your reasons for doing so. It is not enough to say, "from now on I'm going to call this knife a spoon".
As far as the commercial argument is concerned, the English traditional singer, Walter Pardon summed it up perfectly for me.
Walter had passed on one of the songs he had got from his uncle to two revival singers, who had then argued between themselves as to which one of them was going to sing it publicly.
Walter's response was one of puzzled amusement; "They're not my songs, they're everybodys".
There is a certain grim indication of how attitudes have changed to what, as far as I'm concerned should be common property in PRS Member's argument.
A friend of mine, Tom Munnelly, recorded a centuries old ballad, 'The Maid And The Palmer' which was believed to have totally disappeared from the tradition, from an impoverished Travelling man, John Reilly. It was recorded by a 'folk singer' and is now copyrighted by Phil Coulter.
John Reilly died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Boyle, Roscommon.
To all intents and purposes, the ballad is now the property of Phil Coulter.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST, PRS member
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 05:46 PM

I like your solution, Bob. But mine's a bit shorter - and avoids the dread word which can so easily be twisted.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 05:32 PM

"C'mon folks. Like "folk", "traditional" clearly means different thing to different people. If you're going to discuss it, define what it means for the purpose of the discussion. And if, like many, you think it's all-encompassing, please stop using the term so that folks who dothink it refers to something, and not to something else, can go about their business of using the term."

Dick, I don't think any of us have used the words "all-encompassing" and I doubt that any of us would.

For the purpose of discussion, could you define your terms?   What do you consider "folk" and "traditional"?   You said that the words mean different things to different people, but your last sentence seems to indicate a very solid definition that you have formed.

I am asking in all sincerity and please do not interpret my question as being combative. I truly respect your opinion more than most, and I want to be sure that I understand where you are coming from.

This is a very interesting thread, and I think deep down we are probably closer to agreement than it would seem.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 05:17 PM

Um, I didn't actually credit it "yraditional," although that certainly is a pixilated possibility.

Bob


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 05:16 PM

On my records I credited material this way:

Meet Her When the Sun Goes Down (yraditional, Fiddlin' John Carson)

Banjo Sam (traditional, Wilmer Watts)

etc.

This honors the tradition and the song's latest bearer/reviser. It was an approximation at the time, but I haven't found a better way.

Bob


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 09:03 AM

guest prs;yes,that sounds sensible.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST, PRS Member
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 05:42 AM

Ok Let's try some new definitions:

For CD covers, live credits at gigs etc. how about:

'Maker's Name" = in copyright (at the time), royalties due.

"Makers Name; OC" = out of copyright, free to use, but maker respected. (This is where I part company with Rathingle. Just because a work's out of copyright and therefore now 'traditional' it doesn't mean we can forget to credit the maker. If that happened we'd have forgotten about a man called O'Carolan, for example)

"Collected, c (collector's name if possible)" = out of copyright, but traceable to what some used to call 'The Tradition," (though it should have been called "A Tradition") before the term became obsolete.

"Arr Name; any of the above" = registered for copyright but only that precise version, plus the arranger/producer must show that he or she has done his or her best to at least alert the maker, the maker's estate, or the collector before publishing.

"Anon" = genuinely untraceable and so widely used as not to belong to any definable 'tradition.' Therefore no copyright / ownership possible.

That should sort the ownership issue - but it's not ideal for describing the 'folk process.'

I'd suggest that instead of saying The Tradition (a phrase I hate because people use it like a mantra, as an excuse not to think, as a means of gaining acceptence), people should take the trouble to identify which strain they mean.

E.g. The English Rural Tradition, The Donegal Fiddle Tradition, the Sea Chanty Tradition, Football Terrace Tradition, School Playground Tradition, 60s Songwriter Tradition - etc etc etc, and then just not bother to use the T word at all!

It's too late to rescue the word 'folk' - it has too broad a meaning to be redfined now, but if we just learned to use the words 'made,' 'collected' or 'anon' instead of the dreadful 'trad' I'd be content.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 04:45 AM

Martin,
I think I meant North-Mouth - wonder which participant I had in mind!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 04:32 AM

Sorry, PRS Member, didn't mean to ignore your points; went off in a rush
You wrote;
"So - if 'the tradition' is no more, yet people come from outside, step inside, then shut the door, it we're bound to have problems."
You are quite right about this; there is a tendency to dismiss what we find contrary to our preconceptions rather than discuss them; that's one of the reasons I have found this particular thread so enjoyable and informative, though I am a little disturbed that a few of us have monopolised the discussion..
You went on to the subject of definition:
I believe it necessary to agree on a definition of what we mean by 'traditional' or 'folk' otherwise we stop communicating – humanity tends to label things fairly accurately so we know what tin to open.
I, like thousands of others, walked away from the clubs when I no longer knew what I would find when I attended one; to a degree this has happened in the field of research.
If the definitions are going to be changed, they need to be changed by consensus and not in such an arbitrary way as to end up discussing at cross purposes.
I believe the tradition has died and any redefinition has to be carried out based on what information we have of has happened in the past rather than what is happening today, which, I believe to be different – not better or worse, just different.
Up to fairly recently, I have found those involved in traditional song/music, particularly in research, a fairly co-operative bunch open to discussion and argument. Things have changed a little recently with some 'self-appointees' (sorry - not having a pop at PRS or IMRO) who seem to believe that the path to 'fame and fortune' lies in junking the work of others, but these are very much in the minority and by-and-large so lacking in the social skills as to render themselves as recognizable as if they were wearing jackets with luminous stripes.
I can't see any reason why we can't reach an agreement on what we mean by 'tradition' and 'folk' by the pooling of ideas and experiences rather than in the somewhat arbitrary way it has happened so far, (or by shouting at each other) otherwise I can see us all retreating to our individual cells like hermit monks.
Bob:
I think we agree more than we differ on the subject, which is very refreshing.
Didn't know about the 'Songcatcher' rip-off – shame, but hardly unexpected. Can't speak for the UK, but the film never got a general release here in Ireland, which speaks volumes about the tastes of the arbiters of our culture over here.
Folkiedave:
I agree with your assessment of Sandra Kerr as a teacher and look forward to hearing the result of her work, and the other tutors in Newcastle.
On the subject of teaching – has anybody had any experience of the workshops that seem to be springing up at festivals and singing week-ends?
They appear to consist of an established (sometimes) singer spending a couple of hours teaching a class a handful of tunes to songs, not how to sing them, (if this were possible in a workshop) just the tunes. Does anybody know the rationale behind this or does anybody have a different experience of singing workshops?
Jim Carroll
PS I agree with Dick Greenhaus -m for what it's worth.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 05:39 PM

Jim Carroll

"North-outh agreement"? Was that "North-South" or "North-mouth"? Too much to hope for, I suppose!

Regards


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 04:51 PM

That's easy for you to say!


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 03:16 PM

C'mon folks. Like "folk", "traditional" clearly means different thing to different people. If you're going to discuss it, define what it means for the purpose of the discussion. And if, like many, you think it's all-encompassing, please stop using the term so that folks who dothink it refers to something, and not to something else, can go about their business of using the term.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Shaneo
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 03:08 PM

So what is traditional folk music is the name of the initial post Becky .
To Guest above if you like I can get into a discussion about The Wolfe Tones and their contribution to Irish music


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 02:53 PM

I thought the Wolfe Tones had been decommissioned as part of the North-outh agreement.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 02:46 PM

Decidedly: just because a song (or anything else) is in the public domain (i.e., its copyright has expired) doesn't make it "traditional folk music"! Copyright (or its Irish or UK equivalent) is not the point of the discussion here.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 12:30 PM

Sure do. I just thought you might know.

There is a difference between not having to cite the author and considering something trad, it seems to me.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Shaneo
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 12:21 PM

I have been here a while now Mick , I do have a small problem signing in , so sometimes I just use Guest to make life easy .
I cant say which of the 'Tones it was ,,Im sure you understand.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 07:58 AM

Great to see you joined. Welcome.

Was it Derek?

Thanks for the lead to the Comhaltas site.

Mick


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Shaneo
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 07:55 AM

Mick I got the info. from a member of The Wolfe Tones some years ago ,
I also found it on the Comhaltas site [they promote Irish music].
When recording other peoples music you don't have to give credit
to the writer if he/she has been dead 75 years .

This is only what I heard Mick , nothing is cast in stone.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 07:30 AM

Rathingle, according to your assertion, everthing written before 1930 in Ireland is considered traditional? I don't think I buy that at all. I would like to know the source of this assertion of yours, as well as hear from other Irish posters.

Mick


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 07:03 AM

What sort of music was being sung by "The Corries".


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Rathingle
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 12:25 PM

In Ireland if a song has survived 75 years after the person who wrote it died then it is said to be gone traditional .
anon. means nobody knows who wrote it.
Stop complicating things boys and girls


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 08:57 AM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 10:53 AM

To Bob Coltman comment on American singing with banjo, try SaraGray,OR TomPaley


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 10:17 AM

If you were saying that there a few places where you can reasonably sing non chorus stuff, then I would be inclined to agree..........

Are you are saying that the lack of a city centre folk club means that singers get less of a chance to perform a set, perhaps in support of another act and miss out on development in that way ?


Hi Julie, Yes, precisely that. And that the chances for young singers to perform with established artists can be important IMHO.

I know there are established sing arounds and sessions in the town centre, and some of the instrumental music is great, I´ve rarely been to the singing sessions. But I´d like a folk club in the town centre too!!


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:54 AM

Jim -

I see your point, and agree about the narrative aspect of traditional song. In fact, for me as a singer the words are vital. I can and do love many traditional fiddle and banjo tunes, and play some of them. Nevertheless, the lyrics are vital, and I'll always be a singer of good songs (and some delightfully bad ones) first and foremost. I love and sing the lengthy ballads from "Lord Randall" (a Virginia version) to "The Comrades' Last Brave Charge" and many other songs that have stories attached. So I am a partisan highly in favor of what you say.

Indeed I have been worried about the same thing you cite: how readily young players steer clear of traditional singing, instead rushing to traditional tunes! They play them with reasonably good and sometimes outstanding style, though too many tend toward a virtuosity that can destroy the feeling of the older styles. By contrast, some young players do loosen up old tunes that had traditionally been played in stodgy fashion, so it works both ways. Tunes are the draw, not words. Is this because, since traditional style became reinstituted as a virtue in the folkie community, they're finding the vocal slope too steep? Or do they just not think much of words, due perhaps to rock's heavy emphasis on beat and melody?

Here in America, as in Britain, real exponents of traditional singing are few, and of these nearly none are satisfying. I find myself preferring to listen to field recordings from the 1920s and 30s rather than all but a very few of the finest contemporaries. All too rare are moments like that in the film "Songcatcher" where a fledgling Emmy Rossum as well as the peerless Iris DeMent briefly capture the true feel and sound of Appalachian traditional singing! (All honors, too, to the fine traditional singer Sheila Kay Adams, who made sure it happened that way...and perdition to the numbskulls who put out the ensuing CD ripoff with pop singers.)

All you've said about the decline of narrative song is true, and lamentable. Many say it's inevitable given our alternate sources of narrative that overwhelm the instinct. Singers a hundred years ago had little access to books and newspapers, with radio barely beginning and TV and the internet in the distant future. The automobile and highways hadn't had much impact...etc. etc. The story is familiar.

I must say my examples of possible surviving songs were spur-of-the-moment and strictly in fun. But my examples of musical genres that might throw up survivals were a little more serious. I do see survivals arising out of current music here in Yankland if not in Britain. (Granted neither you nor I may enjoy them, still I think they're bound to come!)

A trend already underway may show what could happen. The Smithsonian Institute has long sponsored folk festivals across the US, starting up a new one in a new city each year, and leaving behind a legacy of organization to produce festivals going on into the future. In nearby Lowell, Massachusetts, the yearly festival must now be something like a quarter century old and amazingly strong. It features folk artists from all possible cultures, including strong local Cambodian music and dance.

But the hottest items at those festivals inevitably are the more contemporary sounds, from the Sun Records revival band to electric Cajun rock. Hearing "Great Balls of Fire" blare from folk festival speakers is entertaining, and maybe presenting it as "folk" makes sense from a longterm standpoint -- it's become vernacular music, in some sense, I guess. So has bluegrass, for all its pop-country yearnings. Conversely, some other traditions keep to the old styles, from Portuguese fado with traditional guitarra accompaniment to what's left of American singing with oldtime banjo picking (rarely much good). Trouble is, the few performers in traditional style are swamped by the louder, catchier, more pop-monolithic forms of music that have long enjoyed the advantage of commercial backing and studio-airwaves style.

Is this inevitable? Back in the 1970s when the American oldtime music craze hit big, fans noticed that again and again, American pop music after about 20 to 40 years enters the traditional repertoire. Singers incorporated the songs of the 1880s through about 1910 in recordings of the 1920s. (Granted, as you say, this didn't happen to any great extent in other parts of the English-speaking world -- though Canada and Australia did develop their own 1930s "old time music" derived from American approaches, and some of the records were sold in Britain, they never created significant markets for vocal narrative music.)

In America a Charlie Poole, or an Uncle Dave Macon with a somewhat older repertoire -- both breakaway entertainers with a sizable repertoire of traditional and older popular music -- embodied this principle. But fast forward to today, and similar survivals seem less digestible. The pace of musical change has accelerated so much that very little 20- to 40-year-old music (1960s-80s) fits any conceivable folk style.

For England I defer to your greater knowledge, but clearly the musical world of the 19th-century villager and farmer has vanished more abruptly than in America. It was a lucky break that Bob and Ron Copper, as well as those you cite, survived long enough to impress moderns with their authentic songs and styles. Still, for modern singers trying to carry on English tradition, there has been a real break in continuity. It had to be filled in from about 1950 by a vigorous BBC and club revival effort (paralleling that in America) that would appear to have lost vitality over the years.

It's very much a matter of creating a community anew. That A. L. Lloyd and Ewan MacColl did their share of that beginning in the 1950s shows it can be done, but it takes energy, pluck and real dedication to traditional song. It's never a mass phenomenon, may even be tough to persist in. But this thread is scattered through with names -- examples most recently in Folkiedave's message just above -- who are pushing traditional songs and styles in England and elsewhere in Britain. They're bound to change both song and style in the process, but that's folk music, or so we used to tell ourselves.

I'm still optimistic that (by hook or by crook) some form of English traditional singing will persist. Are teenagers showing up to listen and learn, as happened in the past half century? What are they making of what they hear? It may be a while before they are heard from, but some, I would think, will catch fire from the sheer delight of the songs, and become singers and song carriers themselves. ("Like a virus, caught for the very first time..." -- sorry, couldn't resist that one.)

The danger, of course, is that traditional singing could become solely a professionalized activity, as it has in so many European countries -- a "national resource" embalmed in semi-official "accepted" style and dead as a doornail.

But traditional songs in both England and the US seem to have an idiosyncratic anti-pop magnetism other genres don't have. They attract singers who sing for the love of it, most of them NOT professionally...singers who would sing whether they made any money or not. Folk music's continued vitality will rise or fall, I think, with its ability to attract that kind of amateurs in enough numbers to form some sort of community of like minds.

Bob


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: JulieF
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:44 AM

Dave

I'm surprised that you think that singers have nowhere in Sheffield to hone their skills given that there are two major singarounds at the Red Deer and the Kelham Island Tavern.   If you were saying that there a few places where you can reasonably sing non chorus stuff, then I would be inclined to agree.

Are you are saying that the lack of a city centre folk club means that singers get less of a chance to perform a set, perhaps in support of another act and miss out on development in that way ?

J


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:26 AM

I have hesitated to join in this thread for a number of reasons but since the latest contributions especially from Jim Carroll, make much sense, then I thought I might add two pennorth.

I am not so sure as Jim that singing is as moribund as he seems to suggest. Though I do agree that it has been poor for a while. For years I used to go to folk clubs not just to see the professional performers but in the hopes that I would come across a good singer worth listening to. I was happy for this to happen just occasionally, and felt it was worth listening to the "anything good enough for folk" for the occasional gem. They stopped happening so I stopped going.

At the same time there was a massive increase in young instrumentalists many of whom get incredible enjoyment playing in sessions. So, singers were replaced by instrumentalists and the folk club by the pub session. My own home town of Sheffield does not have a city centre folk club and attempts to start one have failed on a number of occasions. But it has loads of sessions.

All this means that singers and especially solo singers have less places to hone their skills in public so easily.

But some good singers are coming forward. I cite Crucible, Jim Causely, Devil´s Interval, Rachel Unthank and the Winterset, Witches of Elswick as examples and I predict a great future for Ruth Notman.

I think the Newcastle course may have an influence on singers eventually since singing is a large part and they have the wonderful Sandra Kerr as teacher.

Bit of a thread creep from definitions of traditional music.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 03:42 AM

PRS Member
Sorry to have mistaken your meaning of 'The Great Unwashed' – no offence meant or taken I hope – this thread has been refreshingly free of offence so far – it must be the trolls' annual holiday – wonder if they go back to Norway each year!
Bob Coltman.
You are right of course.
I think perhaps I put my point badly. While I believe that the backbone of the British tradition is the narrative song which starts at point A and works through to a conclusion, as you point out, there are those that don't follow this pattern; those for displaying vocal dexterity (Tail Toddle), dance songs, shanties, ritual songs, nonsense songs and many other types. What I was trying to say was that our tradition is word rather than musically based (unlike the US). Even those songs lacking a continuous narrative are based on communicating images, ideas, aspirations, – all the things that make us human. The images used were based on the realities of the times the songs were made and are, I believe, universal and generally identifiable enough to be relevant for today. At the very least, they are a part of our history and as such, worth consideration. Some time ago I researched some traditional songs (including Lillibulero) for a talk I gave on song and history and was fascinated to find how some of them had been made as weapons and inspirations in order to achieve social and political objectives.
I don't see the function that the songs once served being echoed in any of those you put forward as future candidates, certainly not in pop songs, though I confess my knowledge of pop music died with Buddy Holly, J P Richardson and Richie Vallens! I do believe that the traditional form of creation gives us a template for creating new songs (MacColl and a few others have proved that to my satisfaction), but whether this continues to be the case remains to be seen. If nothing else, there is still a great deal of pleasure for me in listening to the old songs well sung. I can still remember the hairs on the back of my neck bristling when I first heard blind Travelling woman Mary Delaney singing 'Buried in Kilkenny' (her version of Lord Randall) while sitting outside her caravan, with trains passing the site she was stopped at every five minutes. I can't recall getting that degree of pleasure from any other form of singing. She prefaced her song by telling us we wouldn't like it because it was "too old".
The tradition was summed up perfectly for me by MacColl at the end of his 'Song Carriers' programmes (anybody who hasn't got a set and wants to hear traditional singing at its best should try to get them while they are currently doing the rounds.
MaColl said of the tradition:

"Well, there they are; the songs of our people. Some of them have been centuries in the making; some were undoubtedly born on the broadside presses. Some have the marvellous perfection of stones shaped by the sea's movement; others are as brash as a cup-final crowd.
They were made by professional bards and by unknown poets of the plough-stilts and the hand-loom.
They are tender, harsh, passionate, ironical, simple, profound; as varied indeed as the landscape of this island.
We are all indebted to the Harry Coxs and Phil Tanners, to Colm Keane and Maggie McDonagh, to Belle Stewart and Jessie Murray and all the sweet and raucous unknown singers who have helped to carry our peoples' songs across the centuries".

When we first started visiting Ireland regularly thirty odd years ago the future of the music there was somewhat uncertain; in the main the musicians were elderly and the youngsters who had been forced to enter the Comhaltas competitions by doting parents were going over the wall at the earliest opportunity. Nowadays things have changed radically. This year's St Patrick's Day parade (in this small West of Ireland town) included at least fifty young people, many of them of school age (some at junior school level), and many of them playing brilliantly, which convinces me that people will still be listening to traditional Irish music for at least the next two generations.
I wish I could say the same about the songs, which appear to be disappearing at a rate of knots. I believe that one of the main factors for this situation has been the poor standard of singing at many of the clubs (certainly many of the ones I have visited). They never seem to have shaken off the amateurish 'near enough for folk song' image that has pervaded the revival from the beginning. I believe it lies within the ability of all of us to sing well – if we work at it. Too often traditional song appears to be regarded by its participants as the only art form that needs no preparation, skill, thought or effort. I packed in singing because I wasn't prepared to do the work and I felt it insulting to sing in public without having done so. We seem to have never escaped the 'natural as birdsong' ethos that was projected by many of the early collectors. Until we do I believe traditional singing is doomed to end up on the archivists shelf.
Well, I'm off to the Knockcroughery (Hill of The Hanged Man I'm told by an Irish speaker – now there's a piece of tradition for you.) singing week-end.
Jim Carroll.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,PRS member
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 05:05 AM

Jim, I was puzzled by your quote 'I am one of PRS members "great unwashed"' because I didn't remember using the phrase. Looking back now I see I did use the term "the unwashed" - but by this I meant 'the uninitiated,' - specifically, in this case, those who've not shown sufficient understanding of, interest in or knowledge of The Tradition to gain acceptance from those who feel they are the guardians of the same.

'Great Unwashed' usually has a totally different meaning, and not one I intended.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 01:11 PM

Its called the rhythm method.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:33 PM

I tried, hey mr tambourine man, its ok for goat milking but not as good as, come saddle to mwe the old grey mare.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:29 PM

Mike Miller, you gave me a good chuckle at the image of Captain Birdseye milkin' them goats to a Dylan song -- the epitome of the rhythmic worksong. Tamp them ties, load that bale, squirt that milk... It's a SHAME the way she MAKES me scrub the FLOOR......yank...squirt...

And I AINT (squirt)
Gonna WORK (squirt)
On Maggie's FARM (squirt)
No MORE! (squirt)

(But seriously folks),

Variability seems to be right at the core of traditional song, if only because the songs pass hither and thither via hearsay, and thus act like a rumor or a meme, growing (or dwindling) and changing as they move. So the mention of Elias Lonnrot and the Kalevala raises one objection many people pose to tradition continuing onward via printed or electronic means: doesn't it die if it takes on fixed form? So if you "learn it off the record" or out of the book, aren't you freezing something that is amoebic by nature?

The Kalevala is an interesting case. In the earliest recording era there were still a few Finns who sang the root songs Lonnrot made his epic from; and they can be heard on ancient 78s. Those Finns were folksingers. But by amalgamating and freezing the Kalevala in book form (as "Homer" or whoever did with the Iliad), did Lonnrot stop tradition in its tracks? It appears he may have. I'm not aware of a live tradition of Finnish epic songs today with any roots apart from the Kalevala itself.

That comes close to the bone, because, as Ron Olesko mentioned, Sharp tinkered with the songs he collected before publishing. So, notoriously, did John and especially Alan Lomax, to the extent that a huge amount of our core American traditional songbase is forever suspect! No kiddin'! We look at songs like "On Top of Old Smoky" or "Old Joe Clark" and have to realize the Lomaxes assembled and in some cases rewrote the "standard" verses to suit their idea of a coherent song. Not to mention the bowdlerization for which Baring-Gould is notorious, but which in fact was done by nearly every collector. A look at the un-bowdlerized songs in Legman's edition of Randolph's Ozark off-color material is a resounding razzberry to all those simon-pure collections that preceded it -- albeit Randolph, in his era, had no choice.

My instinct screams: they had no right to mess with it! I want the stuff, not from some educator or folklorist, but from the horse's mouth! (That's the Big Bill Broonzy horse that sings, I guess.) I have spent my life trying to get around and beyond the interpreters' versions, the folklorists' evasions, to the "real thing" from sources in the field.

But of course that's a will o' the wisp since, again it bears saying, the "pure" tradition was never pure. It survived only by being adulterated countless times over. If it hadn't been "adulterated" and "tainted," it could never have become folksong (traditional song = becoming -- a process, as someone else said).

So without all that "ruination of the older, purer version," we'd still be singing "A Quainte Adventure of Ye Frogge and Ye Mouse" instead of "Frog He Would a-Wooing Go" or "Froggie Went a-Courtin'."

Next, quite a bit has been well said here, especially by Jim Carroll, on the subject of community. That raises an old dichotomy among lovers of traditional song. Surely, like traditional dance, which almost by definition must be a group activity, traditional song may be a community resource -- singing circles, evening family self-entertainment.

But unlike dance, traditional singing is and was, perhaps even more prevalently, a solo activity. Folk songs were sung by solitary people singing to themselves, whether at work or play or just to pass the time, divorced from performance even in the most informal sense. You and I and everyone have all done that, I think, enough to know what it feels like. Even if the songs arose in a traditional community, as often as not they turn into a personal expression in solitude. Sung to the four walls, to a hiking trail, to a mule, to the birds, or to your dog or cat. Could that mean that rootedness, in a traditional or even a pickup community (as with campfire singing), is only part of the story, and not an exclusive criterion?

Finally, Jim, you're devastatingly right in what you say about today's "passive recipients" of culture-from-above. Nothing could be truer. There is no tradition if people merely hum by rote something they heard on the radio or off the jukebox or on MTV. Is there a possibility of "couch potato" folkmusic? Could Homer Simpson by any stretch ever sing a folksong?

Continuance of any tradition requires individual initiative. -- Like our younger selves back then, hearing traditional songs or even reading them out of a book, unable to breathe or think until we had learned them, sung them, made them "our own" (whatever that may mean). Mad to sing them to friends, taking a guitar to parties, denting people's ears, making nuisances of ourselves. Ferreting out ever more obscure songs, springing them on whoever will sit still long enough. It takes drive, and it has to happen apart from received culture.

But we did it, didn't we? And our younger contemporaries are doing it now, however divorced they may be from what we now conceive as "traditional life." (But, remember, our inheritors in the 22nd century may view "tradition" and "traditional life" as something that's still in the future for us.)

To get a little too abstract for a moment: When definitions change, it doesn't negate all that has gone before. That earlier state of things may pass out of memory, i.e., die. But more frequently and most indigestible of all, it changes its semantics and its worldview so that the past turns into an unrecognizable future.

I think from the viewpoint of our predecessors of, say, 1800, that's how the "traditional folk" must have looked as they were changing and developing and "ruining" old songs toward 1900. Think how Britain and Europe's native traditional population might have disowned the breakaway singing and songs of emigrants to the US, Australia, Canada etc. To them, those innovations would have seemed futuristic and not traditional at all! That's not unlike how we have arrived at where we are now, in and after 2000, full of qualms of conscience because we're not traditional.

What I've said about tradition as a moving force onward into the future is predicated on that continuing drive and initiative to learn and pass along songs, if on no other criterion. Everything else may change, but people must be song carriers or tradition fails. The existence (and fervor) of DT, plus all the contemporary folkie communities it dovetails with, from performers to home singers to amateur hum-and-whistlers, makes me think it is continuing, even if by strange new means.

But nobody's required to take the long view. It's more fun just to sing the songs and feel the power of connection to everything we know and feel about them. If we can find a way to be at home with our shifty-eyed definitions of what's traditional, so much the better.

Bob


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 10:10 AM

I think I agree (provisionally) that we, arriving to the tradition from somewhere else, are not part of the tradition. But then I wonder...

I recall Janis Joplin saying something to the effect that she would hardly have dared sing the blues (in her definition that would mean R&B) were it not that blacks had abandoned the blues wholesale, and she felt the songs were too good to be left unheard. Some may feel that was hubris on her part, but I think the remark is valid, and addresses what several have said above: when the "folk" have left tradition behind, when they're happy performing hip-hop, salsa, swamp rock, you name it, then what?

I'm just wondering how time-bound our viewpoint may prove to be. Mistakenly or not, will our descendants regard our strongly self-conscious folkie generation as just another blip in a long line of ever-changing tradition that proceeds onward into future centuries, reinventing itself as it goes?

In other words, can tradition jump the rails? Can it survive its transition from among the "traditional people" -- the Harry Coxes, the Texas Gladdens, those to whom these songs were the fabric of a working life -- into transmission via record, book, internet and any future means we think up? Can it survive blended into the minds of people for whom it is not native?

What if it can't? Then what? Is tradition at an end? Or is it part of a larger continuum in which songs will continue to diversify and be varied, even if no longer in a media-free geographically continuous community? If I'm a spaceman on the Earth-to-Mars cargo run in 2087 and I sing "Barbara Allen" to while away the time, having learned it from my uncle who learned it from a friend who learned it from a Library of Congress recording by Rebecca Tarwater of Tennessee (and especially if the song has changed in transmission through forgetfulness or deliberate variation), am I in the tradition or not?

The components of the traditional community change, and are always going to change. I am pretty sure traditional singers did not at first take kindly to the songs of the industrial revolution -- "Peg and Awl," "Wark o' the Weavers," pick what examples you like (not to mention the ancient "Long Pegging Awl"). They must have thought them a clear break from the old ballads, village dances like "Skip to My Lou" and "Elsie Marley", agricultural songs, and general songs based on that milieu -- "Green Bushes," "Devilish Mary," etc. At first they must have thought them a disagreeable, or at least trivial, novelty that could never join the magic circle of the real old "love songs" etc. But as time went on, their repertoires included both. And the circumstances of life, how different: gritty streets of coal mining towns, as distinct as can be from the old cabin in the green and leafy (but somewhat eroded) holler. (And yet the two environments are cheek by jowl in the American south and around places like Swansea in Wales, and inhabitants may sing both sorts of songs indifferently.)

What is our present-day community? Broadly speaking, the city and the suburbs, with cell phones and the internet. There is no tradition in the usual sense. The office environment produces little or no song. So does that mean tradition is over, was a one-time occurrence, a kind of natural resource like oil that is now depleted and cannot be continued or reconstructed?

But when today's office and convenience store workers and hamburger flippers go home to their electronic village, download Mudcat, learn songs, share them with friends, sing them at songfests, learn more about their provenance, gradually make them part of their own consciousness, is there no possibility whatever that this may be the jumping-off place for a new lease on life that in time may amount to tradition? I would not bet against it.

In a broad sense I think tradition goes on forever, and even the media, though never at its heart, may accidentally become part of it -- as when folksingers appeared on the Hootenanny shows in the 60s -- New Lost City Ramblers singing "Down By the Sea Shore," say, or the innumerable BBC shows featuring authentic singers as well as the modern interpreters who learned from them.

Is tradition, perhaps, whatever propagates itself among people beneath and despite the authorized, imposed culture of official entertainment (American Idol, say)? Is traditional song an irrepressible force that rises from below, a counterculture in a sense? Not every upstart song that exerts uncanny power becomes traditional (Buffalo Springfield's unforgettable "For What It's Worth" has its feet in both worlds but will never be folk). But some do, and I'm guessing some always will.

In the end I guess my plea is for an open-ended definition of tradition that sees it as a continuity going on into the future, changing its circumstances (and yes, its definitions of community), but unending.

Unless we blow ourselves up, of course. Then it will have to start with some other organism on some other planet.

Bob


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST, PRS Member
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 08:52 AM

Jim, I agree with nearly all you say.

You were lucky to encounter, at a young age, people who led you into this music at a time when things were clearer. The trouble is that though there are some great performers who seek to open that door today, there are many more 'champions of The Tradition' who seem to want to do the opposite - vis how Moray, Lakeman and others are vilified here on the web and elsewhere. Even worse, there are many (90% of the English population, BBC executives, advertisers of Sprite lemonade, the US Government, the list is endless) who are so separated from this culture that they fail to recognise any value in it. Our challenge is to reverse this - but only a very few are preared to stand with one foot inside the door and one out, and the die-hards inside trying to shut the door make life even harder for them.

I agree wholeheartedly with this;

"We can do anything we wish with the songs we borrow, sing them unaccompanied or to electric guitars, orchestrate them, sing them in mass choirs, even perform them standing on our heads while drinking a glass of water; so long as we don't mis-represent them by claiming that what we are doing is part of the tradition. Our national traditions as far as I can see, are made up of smaller traditions which, I believe, are, sadly, dead (possible exceptions – childrens' songs and sports chants)."

So - if 'the tradition' is no more, yet people come from outside, step inside, then shut the door, it we're bound to have problems.

I said: We SHARE ownership when we play or use the music - but we should never forget the maker.
You said:Fair enough; tell me their names and I'll acknowledge them in the appropriate manner.
I say: Good - not that it's easy to find a maker, and often it's impossible of course, but it can be done more often than many realise (specially for more recent songs and tunes that lie outside your definition, but within other people's). The trouble is many don't think it's necessary.

I said: IF they are out of copyright.
You said: All traditional songs are – or should be out of copyright – long may it stay that way.
I say: But that's my whole point. Read this page again and you'll see that many have a definition of 'traditional' which takes no account of copyright or 'creative ownership.' The word has too many conflicting meanings, to too many people, to be of any real use now.

I said: We have a problem here in England. The population at large has become divorced from the music which used to be our heritage
You said: It was only ever SOME of our heritage – our tradition is largely a rural or small community one, not one of the whole population. Our urban culture is very different and by and large received passively rather than participated in (with a few exceptions).
I say, as you clarify in your post-script: Again that's only by your definition of the word (shared by many but not all). Others might say it included songs from the revival, music hall, protest songs, union and poltical songs, singer-songwriter stuff that happens to use an acoustic guitar, anything with a story, anything they learned aurally from a floor singer or in a session, anything they've danced to at a ceildh - whatever they fancy. Again - redundant term, too nebulous for effect.

It wasn't the revival that finished off your definition of tradition, it was technology. Other versions thrive, but most importantly the music lives on. Treat your 'rural stream' it as one strand among many and there's no problem. Treat it as the Holy Grail and soon no-one will be able to find it any more.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:14 AM

Soldier Boy
I hope you don't think you've opened Pandora's Box with your posting. Personally, I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the subject with people who don't use long words – I am delighted, and not a little surprised that nobody (so far) has reverted to the freemasons' jargon that usually accompanies this topic.
I suspect that those who are participating love the music and song as much as you and I do, but are curious enough to want to know more – that is certainly the case with me. I agree entirely with Lowry C Wimberly's wonderful statement at the beginning of his 'Folklore in The English and Scottish Ballads':

"An American Indian sun-dance or an Australian corroboree is an exciting spectacle for the uninitiated, but for one who understands something of the culture whence it springs it is a hundred fold more heart moving".

I don't think that there is a short answer to your question, not because it is a particularly difficult subject; rather that the terms 'folk' and 'tradition' have become obscured by misuse.
Now that PRS member has emerged (partially) out of the closet I think I should state my own personal interest.
Far from wishing to exclude them, I am one of PRS members "great unwashed". I have no educational qualifications; I left school in my mid-teens without any certificates, served an apprenticeship on the Liverpool docks as an electrician and spent my working life at that trade.
I came to traditional (folk in those days) song in my early twenties, first as somebody who wanted to be a singer, and later wanting to know more about the music I grew to love. I was lucky enough to know people like Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger, Charles Parker (not Byrd) Bob Thomson, Phillip Donnellan and first on the list, Terry Whelan, who died a couple of weeks ago. They persuaded me that if I lifted the corner and peeped underneath there was a wealth of knowledge and pleasure to be had just below the surface.
It's a little like when I was a young teenager and I became fascinated with a clock we had at home so I took the back off and found that not only did it measure time, but there was whole new world of wheels, springs and levers which I found fascinating and which gave me great pleasure and if I was careful and didn't do any damage it would continue to do so as well as telling me the time.
As much as I love traditional song and music I am not part of it, I came to it from the outside, as did I suspect, virtually all the people on this thread. Nobody asked me to fill in a membership form to join the tradition and I didn't pay a subscription. YOU DON'T APPLY TO JOIN A TRADITION; YOU ARE BORN INTO IT AND GROW UP WITH IT ALL ROUND YOU AS PART OF YOUR LIFE.
The nearest I get to the tradition, is when I look down the list of the song collections on my shelf, or when I recall some of the singers I have met, and I find that the people who have passed it on to us are, like me, also members of "the great unwashed"; people like Sam Larner – deep-sea-fisherman, Harry Cox – agricultural labourer, Tom Lenihan – small farmer, Pat MacNamara – road worker, Martin Howley – landless labourer, Sarah Anne O'Neill – farmer's wife, Jack Elliot – miner, Walter Pardon – carpenter, A H Rassmussen – merchant seaman. If you go through the Hammond and Gardiner collection you will find that many of the songs there were got from occupants of the 'Unions' in the south of England – in other words, the workhouses. Many of our most important ballads come from those at the bottom of the social pile; the Gypsies, Tinkers, Travellers, call them what you will.
As far as music is concerned, one of the finest fiddle players I have ever heard lays paving stones for a living.
Like virtually everybody I know involved in traditional song, we are not part of that tradition, but merely borrowing from it. We can do anything we wish with the songs we borrow, sing them unaccompanied or to electric guitars, orchestrate them, sing them in mass choirs, even perform them standing on our heads while drinking a glass of water; so long as we don't mis-represent them by claiming that what we are doing is part of the tradition. Our national traditions as far as I can see, are made up of smaller traditions which, I believe, are, sadly, dead (possible exceptions – childrens' songs and sports chants).
I believe we owe it to the people who gave us their songs and stories, to pass on the information we have honestly and not to muddy the water for future generations by jumping on the traditional bandwagon.

PRS Member wrote:
"We SHARE ownership when we play or use the music - but we should never forget the maker".
Fair enough; tell me their names and I'll acknowledge them in the appropriate manner.

"IF they are out of copyright"
All traditional songs are – or should be out of copyright – long may it stay that way.

"We have a problem here in England. The population at large has become divorced from the music which used to be our heritage"
It was only ever SOME of our heritage – our tradition is largely a rural or small community one, not one of the whole population. Our urban culture is very different and by and large received passively rather than participated in (with a few exceptions).

"It would also seem that, in this debate, quality is often viewed as less important than antiquity (history trumps music), and perhaps more seriously that the singer is more important than the song (sociology trumps music)."
Quality is largely in the ear or eye of the beholder and more often than not contradictory. All art forms are judged by those involved as being bad, good, indifferent, better worse……. that is as it should be. Those of us who have been involved in research need to make sure that our personal tastes don't interfere with the end result.

Cap'n
Watched the repeat of the Sarah Anne O'Neill programme last night; thanks for the warning, I would have missed it. I think you'll find that the person who first recorded her was not a collector, but a local lady recording a locally organised event who then passed on her tape to Sean O'Boyle.
Jim Carroll
Bob,
Just seen your posting - will try to respond fully later but am off to Knockloughree week-end shortly.
I should have said that I was referring to the British song tradition: I know that there was a major shift to an instrumental/dance-song tradition some time in the early 20th century which brought about major changes in the repertoire. I would contend that my statement is largely true for many of the old 'Love Ballad' singers like say Texas Gladden and Dillard Chandler (to name two of many).


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 08:39 PM

Coming back in after a lengthy lapse.

Azizi, you're right I think. As people's horizons widen, they become, or tend to become, more accepting of diversity -- thank goodness! So among those of us who are exploring outside our own hidebound boundaries (childhood limits, whatever), we can say, "So and so three blocks over and one block down sings this song differently from me, and I kind of like both versions and they're both legitimate, even though I personally prefer singing mine." Or alternatively, "Hers is better and I'm learning it in preference to mine," which has happened for me a good many times.

Jim Carroll, thanks and a question. You seem to see traditional songs as only narrative?? Certainly broadly true for ballads, and even for some non-ballad material -- "Cindy," or in British frame of reference "Weel May the Keel Row," may imply a story even though they are partly made of disconnected verses. We feel we know Cindy, or the lass in "Keel Row" singing about her laddie.

But there are innumerable legitimate traditional songs that don't at all imply a narrative. In Britain, "Swansea Town" comes to mind. "Candlelight Fisherman." Much mouth music ("Tail Toddle" is an exception) and nonsense songs that don't even try to tell a story. American: "Rabbit Hash." "Hangtown Gals." "Old Hen Cackle" and a thousand other hoedowns. A great many love songs: "My Dearest Dear," "Ten Thousand Miles." Miscellanies like "Roll On the Ground," "Don't Let Your Deal Go Down," "Lynchburg Town." Some blues, and quite a number of jook songs. Even "Home On the Range," which is pure landscape and territoriality. Do you just see narrative in a wider sense than I do, or are there, as it seems to me, scads of traditional songs that tell no story at all?

My including non-narrative traditional songs was partly what enabled me to allow for the possibility of riffs and quotes from current pop songs entering future tradition.

Moreover there's quite a bit of **narrative** song that doesn't qualify. Balladlike pop songs abound that are unlikely ever to turn folk. What's the song about the doomed young couple that has the refrain "Oo-oo, life goes on / Long after the ?thrill? of living is gone." (may be inaccurately quoted - but it's a ballad in the flesh, though not traditional in any sense and unlikely ever to be). Dylan does lots of balladlike stuff, like his mock playlet "Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts" and "All Along the Watchtower." Pop music quite often has a strong narrative -- but wouldn't "The Martins and the Coys" and "Eleanor Rigby" seem to face insuperable barriers?

If, as it would seem, "Willie the Weeper" is a traditional song, is "Minnie the Moocher" not a traditional song only because we know Cab Calloway wrote it, though one is a version of the other and quite a few people sing both, more or less inexactly? What about Lead Belly's "Goodnight Irene?" I feel it isn't a folk song, nor is Woody Guthrie's "So Long, It's Been Good to Know You," but they both contain fragmentary narratives, and they're almost exact analogs of songs that are traditional, like the Bahamian "I Bid You Goodnight" and "I'm Goin' To Leave Old Texas Now" or "Goodbye, My Honey, I'm Gone."

I realize all I'm saying is what others have said above: no lines in the sand last longer than the next breeze. Having seen the heterogeneous songs that have become or are becoming traditional, like "Knickerbocker Line" and "The Cat Came Back," I wonder if there's any real criterion for traditional status beyond oldness and inexact transmission?

Then in the next moment I think, nah. Nothing in the world is going to make even interesting mishearings and variants of "Loch Lomond" or "When the Moon Comes Over the Mountain" traditional, though their themes are identical to folk themes. Apart from a very few of the centuries-old "oldies but goodies" in D'Urfey's "Pills to Purge Melancholy," the rest haven't made it yet; neither have most of Shakespeare's songs, "A New Song on the Taxes," or 1842's classic American hit "Betsy Baker." What about "Lilliburlero?" I bet you could get a hot argument going either way on that song.

I find myself lost in contrarieties. It's still useful to know what is traditional and what isn't, but some songs are just hopelessly uncategorizable in between, and some songs seem to shift from one box to the other according to viewpoint.

I'm glad I sing both kinds, though the traditional ones will always be the huge majority, and nearer the core for me. I guess many others are in the same boat.

Bob


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 10:05 AM

fair enough.
My stepfather who came from a Family of piano makers in Stroud,Gloucs., Recalls Sharp visitng his parents, The Grovers,many times ,his description of Sharp , was of a man who was driven obsessively With collecting songs,
my stepfather was himself a socialist, but he always gave the impression that ShaRP was a middle class ,rather conservative man as were his friends the Grovers[Bentley pianos].He would have died laughing at the thought of Sharp being described a socialist.
to jim. what relevance has geordie hanna and Sarah o neill being brother and sister, got to this example of recording.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Scrump
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 08:33 AM

If Sharp was a socialist, he would have surely approved of universal suffrage.
He may or may not have been a member of the labour party[ that doesnt make him anymore of a socialist than BLAIR].
But if he disapproved of the suffragette movement,then he does appear to have been Right wing


In the days of suffrage, I don't think socialists necessarily saw it as part of socialism. Men's attitude to women in those days was probably not related to whether they were left or right wing.

In other words, Sharp's disapproval of suffrage wouldn't necessarily have made him seem right-wing at that time, even if you think in hindsight that it does now.

(I'm assuming as the starting point for the above comments your assertion that Sharp was indeed considered a socialist and opposed to women's suffrage, not knowing much about his personal life/views myself).


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:29 AM

Dear Jim,well it was on T g4, on Sunday night, Ithink.I am sure I heard correctly,.
She also said that she never knew, she was singing traditional songs , until Sean o Boyle told her.
This was the second occasion, after the waterford man had done the taping and he had returned with O .BOYLE


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:04 AM

Cap'n,
Never heard that story of Sarah Anne O'Neill, though I have to say I hae ma doots about its veracity as she is Geordie Hanna's sister. Would welcome more details though.
Enjoying this discussion very much - nice not to be shouting at one another for a change - now - shall I go back to bed or what.....?.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:52 AM

Traditions may die or they may be altered. They can not be created on demand. One can not write a traditional song on purpose. It will, or will not, become traditional when it is wed to habit and generational repitition. Trying to create a traditional song is like trying to build an antique. I have no idea why the people on this list have a need to oblitirate definitions. Do they feel that a song is more honored if they call it traditional? Are they so disdainful of the past that they must dilute it with the present? I suspect that we need a new term for contemporary songs, accompanied by accoustic instruments. I think we should look to the French for inspriration. Those guys have had these kind of songs and singers for years (Think Brel and Montand). What did they call their singer/poets? That is, surely, the category for artists like Paxton and Dylan. If we are to be faced with a folk overlap. let it be with those who create in a concious effort toward traditional inclusion, from actual folklorists like Driftwood and MacColl to sincere recreationists like Sebastion Temple and, occasionally, Willie Nelson.

                     Mike


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:50 PM

Well said Mike!!! Thanks for clarifying, that was the answer I was hoping to hear!

Some people become too obsessed with a need to label a folksong - actually the obssession might be in defining songs that they do NOT consider to be folksongs!   When you deal in labels like that, you forget the true purpose and meaning of the song. The textbook definitions are fine, but they are not the final answer.

Traditions are alive and changing with the times.


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:01 PM

If the good Captain Birdseye choose to serenade his goat with Dylan songs, that is his choice. If he does so, each time he milks that little darlin', he will have created his own tradition, marrying the melody to the motion. (Folksongs tend to be functional or "working" songs). The same holds true for Ron, timing his pressing duties to the strains of "Abraham, Martin and John". You have to do something more than once for it to become a tradition.
I believe that the bone of contention is not in the defining of trad or folk but, rather, in the method of defining them. I contend that folk and trad are not defined by style or age but by function. I think that there are several catagories of folk.
There is functional folk, those songs that are or were used by a community in a repeated ritual (Hymns, camp songs, lullabyes, national anthems, jumprope songs, nursery rhymes, wedding marches, Auld Lang Syne, Happy Birthday, Take Me Out To The Ballgame, The Worms Crawl In, Taps). They allow those of us, who have never been Down Under, to bond with the shearers by singing "Click Go the Shears" or be cowboys or seamen 'board a whaler. They are of great value and should be honored and promoted by folksong societies.
There are, what I call, folk relics, songs of another time, not maintained by ritual function but as cultural oral history. They are honored just because they are so old that their time of popularity is forgotten and they exist as something like family heirlooms (Greensleeves, all the Child ballads, La Paloma, Cietito Linda, many of Steven T. Foster's songs, those Gay Nineties classics like Daisy, Daisy)
There are many talented writers who have written with the various traditions of these two types. While their songs do not fit into either catagory, a critic would have to be suffering from terminal pedantry to fail to appreciate such dedicated lovers of trad as Jimmy Driftwood, Cyril Tawney, Ewen MacColl who wrote with respect and reverence for the traditions they chose to join. So, if Bruce Phillips wants to call his songs "folk" (which he does not), I wouldn't fight with him more than usual.

                         Mike


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Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 09:21 PM

Good grief guys your input is excellent but is there a possibility of too much intelligentsia and legal definition on this subject and, I don't mean to be offensive, but is there also a danger of you disappearing up your own back passage in the process ?

It is obvious by now that there can not be one idea or definition of "Traditional" Folk Music. It is a collective of a ritual, an age,a process, a style, a legal definition, a sound, a culture and community and if a "Traditional" author is dead, unknown or out of copyright?

From what I have heard,thanks to all your contributions, I am still confused but come away with the overriding feeling that "Traditional" Folk Music is an ongoing process of sharing/passing on/evolution/carried on/a process of oral transmission/passed down/infinite/handing down/collected/rescued/saved/should not be left in museums/will live forever. etc

Just look at posting on this Mudcat thread that ask for :

Lyr Rec/ Chord req / Lyrics / Origin / Origin Lyrics etc etc .

What does this mean to you ?

The collective and the community are still alive and well.
Like our "Traditional" ancestors we gather and collect via the Mudcat. This is a new "Community" and surely will become the "Traditional" source of the future where "Tradition" never ends.


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