BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 10:39 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 10:58 PM

My feelings for the people who outed Plame runs pretty close to hate. I don't want to hurt them myself, but I believe that they belong in jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 07:46 PM

Good one, Rigs... I'd give it a 9 1/2...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 07:39 PM

I think that it's necessary to make a distinction between concern and hate. We really don't know these candidates that well to determine whether we hate them personally or not.
We might hate some of their ideas or ways of campaigning but hate is pretty strong.
I don't think anyone on Mudcat including me would want to physically hurt any of the people who we disagree with and so the use of the word "hate" is misplaced. I think we
can dislike many of the policies with which we are presented. I think we can also recognize criminality and corruption when we see it.

I favor a nuanced approach to politics and this is why I gravitate to articles and books
written by such astute authors as Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Howard Zinn, David Brock,
Amy Goodman, and personal accounts by Paul Krugman, Dennis Kucinich, and I have even read both of Hillary's books "It Takes a Village" and her autobio. I've read Bill's book too.
Paul Wellstone, John Kenneth Galbraith and others of this level of thought have opened doors to new ideas for me. I haven't read "Audacity of Hope" yet but it's on my list.

There are so many books out there that I wish I had time for. The only hope we have
of making informed decisions is to be exposed to many ideas and select the ones
that make sense for us. My view of most of the Mudcatters here are they are decent people who really don't have "hate" going for them. Many, like me, are passionate about what they think and sometimes the heated differences get personal. These spats are
really weapons of mass distraction. I hope as voters we can all focus on the issues and let the personalities slide.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 07:23 PM

Blackwater: they are contractors, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 07:21 PM



I have also read accounts that he said that he might have to keep contractors in Iraq
to protect the Green Zone and the Embassy there. How many contractors did he specify that he would remove? I bet not all of them.

Unfortunately, candidates have been known to say different things to placate
the concerns of diverse audiences. I'm not saying that he lied, I just think that
it's often difficult on an issue like this to remain consistent.

Stringsinger.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 06:52 PM

And some very ingorant people run for office, too... And sometimes they get elected... And sometimes they grow up and invade Iraq... And sometimes they never grow up, but they still invade Iraq...

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 06:33 PM

Genie,

Glad you found the humor in my post... Somer folks think that everything I say is like, ahhhhhhh, serious???

And yes, I am, fully aware of how varioue tests and taxes and other concocted thibngs have been used to disenfranchise groups of voters...

But it doesn't make it any easier to accept the fact that some very ignorant people vote??? But that'sd the way it is and there ain't nuthin' I can do about that???

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 05:14 PM

Amos, My point was that it ain't no way to heat water. I'll stand by that.

Guest, Guest,
Would you please stop describing what you think that others are thinking instead of trying to think for your self. You could not be more wrong about me. I would try to explain my thought process if it were not for the utter futility the act would entail. It would be akin to diving into an arctic swimming pool and yelling to heat it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 05:06 PM

But control freaks are control freaks, and they are everywhere.

And at times they fail to recognise that they are themselves being control freaks.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 04:41 PM

"But control freaks are control freaks, and they are everywhere."

That's paranoia.

Guest,guest, when you make an effort to be funny I love it. Truthfully, snide ain't your long suit.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 04:35 PM

Hmmmm... and in thine own reflection wilt behold\
The source of all your condemnation...


(Bannister)




A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 04:32 PM

No, it just means he is a sacred cow to some here. Which is why the supposedly snide comments that many of us find funny, the humor challenged Obama supporters do not. The rule the bully pulpit in this forum, hence "you can't" is their response.

The level of control some people here believe they should have over the behavior of others never ceases to amaze me.

But control freaks are control freaks, and they are everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 04:04 PM

Does that mean Obama is inevitable?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Genie
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 03:55 PM

Bobert said, [[Ahhhh, yes... the "informed electorate" issue...

Like I have said before I think that each ballot should have two parts... The first part a simple quiz on civics and current events and the second part the ballot...

Now all the ballots would be cast but only those with an acceptable score on part one of the ballot would be counted...

And part one doesn't have to be hard:

Sample question:
Which of the following is not one of the three branches of governemnt:
A. The Legislative branch
B. The NASCAR branch
C. The Executive branch

B~]]
LOL, Bobert.

But, of course, that's been tried before. Ruled unconstitutional, of course, just like poll taxes (substitutes for which are finding their way back into usage). But it sure helped keep a lot of blacks, recent immigrants, and "poor white trash" from being able to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 03:12 PM

Jack:

Maybe if it were in a perfect thermos or something. Otherwise the dissipation would outpace the accumulation of energy, because of the very low energy density of a sonic wave front hitting a container of liquid.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 02:13 PM

Well, you are right, of course. It is important to keep the facts straight. Sometimes things are not interpreted the way the poster intends them.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 02:05 PM

>>
From: Riginslinger - PM
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 01:46 PM

Sorry! I'll try to pay more attention to protocol.<<

Don't do so on my account, to me this is all just banter, I just take a snide remark as an invitation to reply in kind.

I don't count you in this group but it seems to me that some people here post on the political threads in order to win voters to their side. While I support their right to do so, I don't think they ahve a good reason to do so.

I read somewhere that if you were to yell at a cup of water for ten years you could theoretically heat it enough to make coffee. I remember thinking that it is a lot easier to use a kettle.

Typing here in hopes of winning hearts and mind is like yelling at a coffee cup.

I like the rough and tumble, I like the humor and wit that these arguments entail. I pretty much try to amuse someone with each post and I try to be respectful of your time by thinking through my answers and trying to keep my facts straight. I feel that, though I don't agree with you, you do much the same. Don't change on my account.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 01:46 PM

Sorry! I'll try to pay more attention to protocol.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 01:45 PM

I have to say this one thing. If Obama is still spending Rezko's $116,000, then he is certainly the best manager and the candidate of fiscal responsibility!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 12:27 PM

Yeah, Rigs, ol' buddy... A simple "lol" after the remark works just fine... LOL... see???

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 12:24 PM

Snide, snide, RIg. You have to make distinctions between humor and bitter-minded underhanded remarks. They are different.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 11:56 AM

>>>From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 07:57 AM

"Obama pays his bills!"


             With other people's money, including Tony Rezko's!<<<

You know its not true, but you say it anyway. Have you been reading the Mark Penn manual?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 08:09 AM

Ahhhh, yes... the "informed electorate" issue...

Like I have said before I think that each ballot should have two parts... The first part a simple quiz on civics and current events and the second part the ballot...

Now all the ballots would be cast but only those with an acceptable score on part one of the ballot would be counted...

And part one doesn't have to be hard:

Sample question:

Which of the following is not one of the three branches of governemnt:

A. The Legislative branch

B. The NASCAR branch

C. The Executive branch

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 07:57 AM

"Obama pays his bills!"


             With other people's money, including Tony Rezko's!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 02:21 AM

On Hillary's fiscal management of her campaign. Not good for PR.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:52 PM

Rig--

Neither black-skinned nor brown-skinned people are my foes. But for you the case appears to be different. They are the ones you complain about constantly.

I note you refuse to answer the question so far, but I will ask it yet again, even knowing that your question-dodging skills are second to none.

Exactly what do you have against brown and black-skinned people? And if you answer you have nothing against them, that is blatantly false--as any skimming of your posts will confirm.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:36 PM

Riginslinger,

You are talking about responsible people and supporting Hillary Clinton.

Obama pays his bills!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:34 PM

Kerry got nominated because a book was published calling him a war hero.
He was attacked successfully by his peers because he had said nasty things about his peers in his diary at the time and was dumb enough to let excerpts from that diary be published in that same book.

Obama wrote his own books. He will do OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:30 PM

Yeah. It IS disturbing. Very similar here.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:40 PM

Peace - I certainly won't argue with that. But there is very little that can be done if responsible people are unable to get elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:23 PM

" The reality is, the electorate is not nearly as well informed as a lot of us think it should be."

The other reality is that they ain't as well informed as they think they are. Beware of stupid people in groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:19 PM

With Move-ON.Org and the student network it was easy for Obama to organize the caucuses.
                   And I agree with everyone who thinks the elctorate should be informed. Kerry was nominated by an informed electorate, but he lost in the general election because a lot of the working class voters were not as well informed as the caucus goers were.
                   The reality is, the electorate is not nearly as well informed as a lot of us think it should be. The bottom line is, if you don't win the general election, it doesn't matter how well informed your supporters are(were).

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 08:29 PM

Yeah, JtS....

This seems to be yet another Clinton ploy... Actually, the caucus is probably the most revered democratic institution because it forces people to, ahhhhh, interact with one another and talk about issues and differences... If there is anything more democratic than causcuses then I love to hear about it....

Jefferson said that democracy needed an informed electorate.... Listeing to 30 second sound bites and voting based on that would make ol' Tom turn in his grave... But folks assembling and talking about stuff would make him proud...

Clinto should not have taken caucus states so lightly... That is 20/20 hindsight but that is the "way it is"...

Part of leading a country is being plugged into the grassroots... Obams knew that... Clinton didn't...

Get over it, Hillary...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 08:11 PM

Students and people with a couple of hours to go to the caucuses are elite? That is absurd.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 07:24 PM

"Not Malcolm X, not Jeremiah Wright - Martin Luther King. (Speaking as God in that last sentence.)"


                     Maybe Martin Luther King Jr. could get away with speaking as god. Still, I think it would only have an effect of people who believed in god.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 07:07 PM

If democracy were only meant for people who understand it, it wouldn't be democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 07:05 PM

"How is the caucus thing "elite"?"

                   Sure, working people are not officially excluded from caucuses, but many times they either don't have the time, or would have to make an extra effort to get there. Plus, they'd have to be really interested to stay there.

                   Why would you think Obama spends so much time on college campuses? And why is so much of his support coming from those sources and not regular voters?

                     Caucuses are not democratic, which is why candidates selected by caucuses do so poorly in the general elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 06:57 PM

A lot of people were comparing him to Malcolm-X after that, from both sides of the aisle.

Here is a closer precedent which I've already posted earlier "We are criminals in that war...We've committed more war crimes than any nation in the world...But God has a way of putting nations in their place"..."If you don't stop your reckless course, I'll rise up and break the backbone of your power."

Not Malcolm X, not Jeremiah Wright - Martin Luther King. (Speaking as God in that last sentence.)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 06:54 PM

Rig:

Why do you not dare include the whole statement, if you are quoting Wright, in the context in which he said it?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 06:16 PM

black nationalist
Function:
noun
Usage:
often capitalized B&N
Date:
1963
: a member of a group of militant blacks who advocate separatism from the whites and the formation of self-governing black communities
— black nationalism noun often capitalized B&N

---------


He has advocated these things? In his sermons? Recently?
Please cite examples or find something else to harp on

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 06:16 PM

How is the caucus thing "elite"? My son, a regular working stiff, caucused in Colorado, and all he had to do was show up and stick around for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 06:13 PM

Riginslinger you have a unique way of looking at things.

>>Not really, because the elite caucus vote has been going to Obama all along.<<

"elite?"

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 06:09 PM

"The discrepant results in Texas between the primary (open to everyone, easy to cross party lines) and the caucuses (Democrats only) is telling."


                      Not really, because the elite caucus vote has been going to Obama all along.




                         "What did he say--"

          God damn America... God damn America... God damn America...

                         A lot of people were comparing him to Malcolm-X after that, from both sides of the aisle.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 06:04 PM

Black is not a belief, and his religion is irrelevant. Nationalist in what sense?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 06:02 PM

He isn't a black supremacist.

He is, however, very much a black nationalist Christian.

Separatist? I haven't a clue.

Where the hell did the supremacist thing come from anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Genie
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM

Jack the Sailor said [[It disturbs me that much of Hillary's support has been in Bush strongholds. I think that a lot of her support in Ohio, Texas and now Pennsylvania is from Republican mischief makers.]]
Actually, this is more than speculation. Not only has Rush Limbaugh (with his myriad legions of dittohead supporter/listeners) been blatantly advising them to do just that - because "we want this [battle] to go on," because "we want Obama bloodied up" and "none of the Republican Party leaders have the stomach for that" - but there's been a lot of exit polling and post-primary analysis of voting patterns that show that.   E.g., in a number of HEAVILY Republican precincts or counties in Texas, not one single vote was cast for a Republican candidate in the primary, and Clinton won over Obama big time in those districts. E.g., quite a few Republicans in Texas, Ohio, etc., have admitted to - even bragged about - having tried to sabotage the Dems by helping keep the intraparty fighting going and/or to make her the nominee.

Some Republicans in some states have switched parties and voted for Obama - maybe some for Clinton too - because they genuinely do not want McCain to win (for various reasons).   Obama has won over some moderate Republicans in the primaries, just as he has done in his Illinois races.   The same can be said for Hillary Clinton, who would probably not have been elected US Senator from NY without considerable support from Republicans.   But there's also good evidence of mischief in the form of switching parties JUST FOR A WEEK or so, as El Rushbo is advising.   The discrepant results in Texas between the primary (open to everyone, easy to cross party lines) and the caucuses (Democrats only) is telling.

Contrary to what Hillary says, she did not "win Texas." Obama has more delegates than she does from that state.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:54 PM

What he looked like to you? Meaning large, and dark-skinned, and angry? But the similarities end there, Rig. What did he say-- and in what context that so much as implied a belief in "black supremacy"?? What evidence are you looking at, if any?

Without it, you are just flailing your biases around.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:50 PM

>>From: Riginslinger - PM
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:44 PM

"The idea that Wright is a black supremacist is blatant propaganda."


                         For those of us who have seen them in the past, that's sure what he looked like to me.<<

Propaganda works best on those who do not look very hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:47 PM

Well Genie we do know that there are potentially three myriad myriad people in the US to not have a clue. For more than that we would have to go international.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:44 PM

"The idea that Wright is a black supremacist is blatant propaganda."


                         For those of us who have seen them in the past, that's sure what he looked like to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:42 PM

That was said most plethorically.

Subject: Etymological and linguistic pedantry sidetrack
From: Genie
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:40 PM

I love etymology and I can be as big a pedant as the next o' youse guys, but I daresay if a news report said "Obama spoke before a crowd of 10 myriad," a plethora of people - myriads upon myriads, in fact - wouldn't have a clue what you meant. ; )

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:37 PM

>>neither will remove the
Blackwater, Triple Canopy and KBR mercenaries who they feel would be required to guard<<

Obama said he would remove "contractors like Blackwater" in his talk with Tim Russert on Obama's turn on Meet the Candidates on Meet the Press. He said he wanted our military to guard our diplomats.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:32 PM

>>>M.Ted - PM
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:02 PM

Comments like this one, offered by Jack the Sailor, explain why there is a limited possibility for serious discussions about elections here at Mudcat:


>It disturbs me that much of Hillary's support has been in Bush strongholds. I think that a >lot of her support in Ohio, Texas and now Pennsylvania is from Republican mischief >makers.<<

I think making comments like the above are a much more clear and present reason.

A silly open ended attack with no basis in logic.

I made that statement because it is what I believe. One friend of mine told me that his dad in Ohio did vote for Clinton, because Rush suggested it, to prolong the race and keep Hillary at Obama's throat.

I really find it odd that country boys in Texas and Ohio hillbillies are voting for Hillary Clinton. In Pennsylvania Obama's support is concentrated near Philly and the college towns, which consistently vote Democrat. Hillary's areas voted for Bush. I know a lot of people who support Bush. I know a few who are Hillary fans. I see NO OVERLAP at all. Yet areas where Bush gets 70-80% of the voted are giving similar percentages to Hillary. I'm not saying that all the votes she is getting in these areas are mischief votes, but I fear that a lot of them are.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:29 PM

Here's the way I see it. Hillary has a lose/lose option. If she finagles the DLC or the DNC
to fix the election she will alienate so many in the Democratic Party that they won't show up. If she goes all the way to the Convention, she will destroy any chance of a peace option for Iraq because the Party will disintegrate. McCain will walk in.

The thing that probably will happen is that the Super Delegates will step in and support
Obama to save the Party and as a result he will meet the delegate requirement for winning. This will probably happen in July. (I'm quoting Rachel Madow, here.)

The idea that Wright is a black supremacist is blatant propaganda. His anger reflected in the pulpit in no way says that he considers black people superior. His angry remarks have to be taken in context and this is something that the media will not honor. Obama expressed his position well without giving in to the negative side of the sermons. This anger is representative of a large segment of the black population who would echo Rev. Wright's diatribe. But it was clear to me that his comment about damning America had more to do with criticizing the Bush Administration and the subsequent racism of the white Washington establishment and the Pentagon then it did for really disavowing the country.

The fact that Hillary uses the Wright's comments to enable her campaign speaks poorly of her motives towards African-Americans. She should have also come to the defense of Obama in the false inference that he was a Muslim. She should have done this for the country and not waffled on this issue to win an election. Obama has not endorsed Louis Farrakhan nor has Wright. Instead, Hillary wants to win the white working class vote in Pennsylvania which is reputed to be "racist". Here's that ugly race card we heard about.

Jeffrey Sharlet's book on the "Family" is due out in May. This should put to bed the idea that Obama endorses the anger of Wright. Hillary has not disowned her association with this group and probably won't. I'm not sure how much difference this will make to the average voter, however.

Then there's McCain's association with Hagee and Parsley. McCain has not disavowed them and I see them as more destructive than Wright.

I think July will be the time the Democratic Party Primary conflict will be resolved. Howard Dean has said as much.

As to the issue of getting out of Iraq any time soon, neither candidate has made a substantial statement regarding a plan to do this. Both candidates have promised to
defend the large American Embassy in the Green Zone and neither will remove the
Blackwater, Triple Canopy and KBR mercenaries who they feel would be required to guard
the working American civilians in the area. If that area is to be "defended" the troops that are there now will not be able to do it and the reliance on the "mercenaries" will be deemed obligatory.

As much as I would vote for Dennis Kucinich in a heartbeat, a write-in name for him
on the ballot would probably vitiate the vote and be an unintentional vote for McCain.

Don't count on finance campaign reform very soon or a resolution to the election fraud
that is still with us in 2008.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:02 PM

Comments like this one, offered by Jack the Sailor, explain why there is a limited possibility for serious discussions about elections here at Mudcat:


>It disturbs me that much of Hillary's support has been in Bush strongholds. I think that a >lot of her support in Ohio, Texas and now Pennsylvania is from Republican mischief >makers.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:25 PM

Well, my friends on Mudcat have told me different days on which Lent ends. (Has to do with me giving up political threads for the Lenten season.) I am a bit confused by the dates, some of which are 327 days away. So I figured I would give up the one breakfast meal I really enjoy and that was the sardines on toast topped with maple syrup. I know it sounds a bit strange, but when ya sprinkle some chopped onion and a few dashes of vanilla--well, even Emeril is begging for the recipe. I wouldn't give it to him, but for my friends on Mudcat it's a freebee. Bon apetit!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 04:09 PM

Peace - How are you going to survive with no sardines on toast with maple syrup?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:43 PM

This is interesting

>>Similarly one hundred hundred is a myriad. A myriad myriad, or one hundred million, was left as the largest named number by the Ancient Greeks and is also the largest named number in the Bible.

A myriad is primarily a singular cardinal number; just as the "thousand" in "four thousand" is singular (one does not write "four thousands people") the word myriad is used in the same way: "there are four myriad people outside". When used as a noun, meaning "a large number", it follows the same rules as that phrase. However, that is not the case originally in Greek, where there is plural.<<

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myriad

I want to use it in a sentence or two.

Obama spoke to two myriad students at Penn State the other day. As Hillary addressed a myriad of vendors to whom she owed money. Her campaign is three hundred myriad in debt.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:34 PM

Well, plethorically speaking, I tend to agree with the worthy gentlemen. I have given some things up for Lent, and disagreeing with people is one of them. The other is sardines on toast with maple syrup.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:32 PM

Since myriad literally means ten thousand, is it not both digital and base 10.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 02:54 PM

Actually, an analog plethora, at least over the last bot between the server and your ear.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 02:49 PM

A virtual plethora.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 02:42 PM

When you owe a hundred small vendors 3,000,000 you get a lot of phone calls.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 02:38 PM

When you owe the bank $6,000 they own you. When you owe the bank $3,000,000, you own them.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 02:32 PM

>>Another way they've devised to ensure that they'll pick an unelectable candidate in the fall.<<

You ignore most of my post. You are just trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 02:18 PM

"Thank goodness that the Democratic process rewards districts which voted Democrat in 2004 with a higher number of delegates."


                              Another way they've devised to ensure that they'll pick an unelectable candidate in the fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 01:41 PM

It disturbs me that much of Hillary's support has been in Bush strongholds. I think that a lot of her support in Ohio, Texas and now Pennsylvania is from Republican mischief makers.

Thank goodness that the Democratic process rewards districts which voted Democrat in 2004 with a higher number of delegates.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 08:17 AM

Maybe the Ditto-Heads will start donating to Hillary.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 07:48 AM

OK CarolC, whatever you say. Of course, you are right.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Genie
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:59 AM

What Amos said.

What's sad to me is that, in spite of the horrid mess Dubya and the dittohead Repubs have made of these past 7 years, given the mega-corporation-dominated "mainstream media," the Dems will NEED the whole party to be on board backing their nominee wholeheartedly to defeat the superficially avuncular John I-survived-5-years-in-the-Hanoi-Hilton McCain come November, yet the more Hillary badmouths Barack, the harder it will be for her and her supporters to get on board and campaign for him if -- when -- he becomes the party's nominee.

HINT: Whatever party you represent and whoever you are, how about not painting yourself into a corner?

G

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Genie
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:48 AM

Art Thieme said: [[I wrote this verse back when it was news at the Olympics.   The tune is John Hardy.

Tanya Harding was a desperate little girl,
She carried a Lillehammer every day,
She hammered Nancy's knee up in old Detroit,
You ought to see Tanya Harding gettin' away,
You ought to see Tanya Harding gettin' away.]]

Art, once again I must come to Tonya's (NOT "Tanya's") defense, I see.
Nobody likes a good folk song as much as I, but Tonya did not wield the wooden stick (NOT a tire iron) that hit Nancy on the thigh (ABOVE the knee), and, while she only pled guilty to "hindering the prosecution" of the guys who did the deed (primarily her ex-husband and still lover, Jeff Gilooley), Tonya (NOT "Tanya") HARDLY got away with it. She paid a very hefty fine (ca. $10,000) for a poor working stiff and was forever deprived of her main livelihood (anything having to do with skating as an amateur competitor or as a paid professional).   I'm beginning to think Tonya's (NOT "Tanya's") "crimes" were small potatoes compared to the path Hillary seems to be set on.

Subject: RE: BS: Mrs. Clinton not paying bills.
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 12:18 AM

NBC News reported tonight that Obama ads are running about 3 to 1 of Clinton in Pennsylvania.

Subject: RE: BS: Mrs. Clinton not paying bills.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 12:12 AM

Read the second page SRS.

Q

I don't know who it is, but the story is on several other outlets.

I believe that there are catering companies and venues who are getting no answer to their dunning letters.

>>The New York senator's presidential campaign ended February with $33 million in the bank, according to a report filed last week with the Federal Election Commission, but only $11 million of that can be spent on her battle with Obama.<<

I believe that this is actually the meat of the story. When Clinton's campaign bragged about receiving this money, somehow the press got the impression that she had raised three fifth as much money as Obama did, when in fact she rase one fifth as much. It shows that her campaign was more smoke and less fire than many people thought. This will hurt her with political types and if the story is to be believed is already hurting her with vendors who are demanding cash up front.

I have been stiffed when I had a small business. Believe me. The word is spreading and unless she gets lots of cash, quickly, her Indiana, NC and PA events won't be nearly as well prepared as her Ohio and Texas ones were.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 12:12 AM

I would suggest, after having heard not only the short versions of the sermons, but also the longer ones as well, that the words that people are saying are "code" for racist language is in actuality, language that Reverend Wright was using to tap into deep seated attitudes that he feels the members of his congregation might be harboring, and to then shift the dialogue to help bring them up out of those attitudes. Because of the longer versions I've heard, he always brings the message back to love, forgiveness, and inspiring the listener to make his or herself right with his or her god rather than striking out in retribution at others.

People who make judgements on the shorter versions, or on transcripts of the shorter versions are basing their judgements on ignorance and heresay. You really are not in a position to make those judgements if you haven't heard the sermons in their longer contexts.

Subject: RE: BS: Mrs. Clinton not paying bills.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 12:00 AM

Just who is behind "Politico"? Looks like just another blog site.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:59 PM

I disagree with your contention CarolC, obviously, or I wouldn't have slung out the term "save the race".

It is precisely the tone and coded language of what I heard in the excerpts of Wright's sermons, that helped me recognize the trope.

Nowadays, we hear that same trope couched often in "endangered species" terms, like the "endangered black male" or "endangered black family".

In cultural studies circles, the deconstruction of the post-black nationalist trope is sometimes referred to as "crisis narratives".

Believe me, working in a predominantly African American school with gender segregated classrooms for 6th grade students, I hear it day in and day out.

As you might be able to suss out, I'm not a fan of the ideology, myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:54 PM

Even better for him. I read today that Obama has 14 Senators to 12. That is counting themselves.

and Clinton is running out of money.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:50 PM

Yes, those were the most recent example I could think off the top of my head.

I was standing at a local indie bookseller recently, reading through a copy of "The Prince of War: Billy Graham's Crusade for a Wholly Christian Empire", and I read one of the sections that related to the Nixon tapes.

But there is plenty more, plenty more.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:46 PM

It seems that, bit by bit, Hillary's campaign is crumbling--and Obama just has to stand back and watch it happen. Which , excellent campaigner that he is, he is doing masterfully. Not trying to pressure her to withdraw. After all, he knows he will need the votes of her supporters in the fall. And, since he has run a non-divisive campaign, just reacting to her attacks--in contrast to her scorched-earth approach-- he will get the votes of her strongest supporters, despite what they may say now. For them the top priority is to prevent a Republican from naming any more Supreme Court justices. And they know that when he gets the nomination, voting for him will be the only way to keep the Supreme Court from going lopsidedly conservative.

I heard today that he's just picked up the endorsement of another Senator. He now has as many Senators' endorsements as she does.

And unless her campaign can come up with an extremely creative reason why she cannot, she soon will be releasing at least her taxes from 2006 and a few more years--not all the way back to 2000, as Obama has done--but enough to raise some fascinating questions. According to her spokesman last week, she will release them at least 3 or 4 days before the PA primary.

I would not be at all surprised to then watch her campaign self-destruct totally---since there will be no way to explain all the complications of the Clintons' finances without absolutely clinching the argument that she is the creature of lobbyists--and possibly even entangled in seamy foreign deals.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:46 PM

I'm not trying to make you out to be a racist. But in light of this comment...

There may be, I just haven't listened to them

...I would say you're not really in a position to make the kinds of accusations you're making about Reverend Wright.

Subject: RE: BS: Mrs. Clinton not paying bills.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:38 PM

It would be really sad if she's forced to pull out for financial reasons. McCain and the Republicans will make the case that he bought the nomination, and it will propell him to the White House for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:37 PM

There may be, I just haven't listened to them, so I don't know whether Wright is more Woodson than DuBois, or more Ellison than Elijah Muhammed.

Black nationalism, especially black separtist nationalism, has a very old pedigree. There are the black nationalist Christian emigrationists and the black nationalist Muslim emigrationists...

It is complicated, and I think, CarolC, you might be looking for something I said to make it easy to label me racist.

Which I am, BTW. Just like everyone else born and raised in the US, and most every single person who ever found their way to our borders, is racist.

Thing is, I know it and admit readily to it. Because seeing your own shadows with honesty makes you self-aware, which is way more than half the battle.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:36 PM

In defense of Tanya Harding--she looked great in the ring--Paula Jones was all attitude, with no skill whatsoever. And, let's face it, Tanya Harding did for Women's Figure Skating what Bobby Riggs did for Women's Tennis, and she got banned from the sport for life.

The less said about Nancy Kerrigan, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:35 PM

"'Billy Graham and the Nixon tapes, for a start, will lead you to his "real thoughts'"

                  Isn't that where he talks about his concept of Jews in the media?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:19 PM

So I guess there's really nothing in his sermons that advocate "keeping the race pure" from a Black perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Mrs. Clinton not paying bills.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:13 PM

[sigh]

Read the article, Jack:

Clinton's campaign did not respond to recent, specific questions about its transactions with vendors. But Clinton spokesman Jay Carson pointed on Saturday to an earlier statement the campaign issued to Politico, asserting: "The campaign pays its bills regularly and in the normal course of business, and pays all of its bills."

Just like with other businesses, it's common for campaigns to carry unpaid bills from month to month, but in Clinton's case, it also could serve a strategic purpose.

The New York senator's presidential campaign ended February with $33 million in the bank, according to a report filed last week with the Federal Election Commission, but only $11 million of that can be spent on her battle with Obama.

The rest can be spent only in the general election, if she makes it that far, and must be returned if she doesn't. If she had paid off the $8.7 million in unpaid bills she reported as debt and had not loaned her campaign $5 million, she would have been nearly $3 million in the red at the end of February.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:10 PM

Save the race/uplift the race, etc.

Try reading some black history for context, people.

The whole Wright thing isn't about Black Nationalism in the 60s political sense, or the political sense of Marcus Garvey either.

Rather, it is, nowadays, a 60s leftover that is more of a conventional cultural attitude among the African American mainstream activists, who are often as socially conservative as Jerry Falwell (like Obama's buddy the Rev Lumpkin), but moderate in it's politics, which gets channeled, as it does at Trinity, into charity works, mostly for African Americans or Africa.

So even the charity driven stuff has a separatist and black nationalist aura to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:04 PM

Billy Graham and the Nixon tapes, for a start, will lead you to his "real thoughts" (to paraphrase the man), even though he feigned complete ignorance of having ever said such things when confronted with the transcripts...making him a liar too.

And the man never met an imperial American escapade he didn't like.

Reamed MLK a new one when he came out against the Vietnam War.

Try some critical reading on the good Rev Graham, instead of the propaganda at this website.

Subject: BS: Mrs. Clinton not paying bills.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 10:57 PM

Looks like she is 3 million in the hole.
If the lights go out while she is speaking you will know why.

Looks like she is not paying her bills.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:49 PM

Your point is well taken, It probably is not fair, but since then she has tried to cash in on her infamy by boxing with Paula Jones. Its hard to imagine the term "Tonya Harding Option" doing her reputation more damage than her actions already have.

Isn't it a little ironic that Tonya beat up on one of the Clintons' enemies?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:49 PM

Tonya Harding has overcome her troubles by the looks of it. Would that those in the American political race could overcome theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:38 PM

I am thinking this is not fair to Tanya Harding, who is admittedly a troubled woman...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:15 PM

Thank's Peac, nice link. That is the Billy Graham that I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:52 PM

Yeah, of all the right-wing-religious-wakkos out there to pick on, Billy Graham would be way down on my list.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:48 PM

Billy Graham a racist? Don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:14 PM

I haven't seen that Rev Wright ever made that accusation about "the white population". He did make a similar accusation about the US Government: "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied." That is not the same thing. Accusing "the US Government" is not the same as accusing "the white population". It may be a mistaken accusation, but it is not in any way racist.
..............................

"We are criminals in that war...We've committed more war crimes than any nation in the world...But God has a way of putting nations in their place." And how would God deal with an unrepentant America "An dif you don't stop your reckless course, I'll rise up and break the backbone of your power."

Rev Wright? No, Martin Luther King a few months before he died, preaching in his church in Montgomery, Alabama.

I take the quote from an excellent piece by Guardian writer Gary Young in today's paper (March 31st) America lauds Martin Luther King, but undermines his legacy every day:

"It is unlikely King would have fared any better on YouTube or the blogosphere than Wright did. King, like Wright, was excoriated for opposing the "senseless and unjust war" in Vietnam. "The reaction was like a torrent of hate and venom," recalled one of his aides, Andrew Young. "As a Nobel prizewinner we expected people not to agree with it, but to take it seriously. We didn't get that. We got an emotional outburst attacking his right to have an opinion."

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 04:54 PM

Kind of hard to do!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 04:53 PM

>>racist bigot and right wing nut Billy Graham?<<

Can you support this at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 04:46 PM

I don't think that's what she meant by "let's keep the race pure" in reference to Rev. Wright. It looks to me like she's saying that Rev. Wright is advocating keeping the Black race pure.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 04:29 PM

The quote you're looking for is actually from Reverend Wright himself when he tried to make the case that the white population invented the scourge of AIDS to wipe out the black population.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:57 PM

In fact he's very specifically gone on record against that kind of thinking.

I haven't seen any quotes from Rev Wright posted anywhere which would deserve the "racist" label. Or should that be spelled "libel"?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:44 PM

Where does Rev. Wright advocate for "keeping the race pure"? I have not seen any indication anywhere that he has said anything like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:28 PM

Of course it was noticed. Do you think the movement evaporated after five years? But the big question is whether there is anything to her involvement with it. If it was a transient connection fiveyears ago, its of no concern. If it was a networking connection alive now, that's another issue.

Wright's connection is DOA.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 01:55 PM

Look, there simply are NO major party candidates left in this race who aren't surrounded by VERY scary people. That includes McCain, Obama, and Clinton.

Obama's "let's keep the race pure" pastor & his black nationalist brand of Christianity should scare everyone just as much as McCain's sucking up to the Family Values folks.

These claims about the Clintons have been floating around for a long time, and frankly, I don't think there is that much to them.

Very close ties to the racist bigot and right wing nut Billy Graham? You bet. Clintons are best buds with that very, very dangerous man.

But "The Family" is Republican, and the idea that they would even let Hillary into the inner circle, is ridiculous.

Or did none of you notice the Harper's article is 5 years old?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 01:45 PM

Well said, Ss.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 01:31 PM

I've tried to stay out of this discussion. I read Jeffrey Sharlet's piece in Harpers on "The Family". I think that this is a dangerous group of dominionist religious nuts. They are very powerful because they have influence in some of the highest spheres of Washington.
The fact that Hillary would have anything to do with them reflects negatively on her judgement. These people's agenda makes Wright's comments look tame.

No candidate is all good or all bad. Hillary is a bright woman getting very bad advice
from her team. Her campaign reflects a kind of desperation and with her present
approach, she can't really win. She would do well to give a detailed and organized speech to the nation as Obama has done on race, Iraq, and the economy. Then we would
know where she really stands.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Why Hillary is upset
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 12:33 PM

The argument dramatized

Subject: BS: Why Hillary is upset
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 12:31 PM

She just can't compete!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:38 AM

"Politics sure does have a way of gettin' people riled up, don't it?"


                            It sure does!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 01:35 AM

Rig...

Lemme see if I have learned anything...your being funny about Obama's religious convictions, yes? It is to laugh, yes?? Ah...hahha. VEry good.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:44 PM

Politics sure does have a way of gettin' people riled up, don't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:06 PM

"Two legs, two eyes, hair..."


                      And, of course, there are always those religious convictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:52 PM

Amos - I had to look up perfidious!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:49 PM

Oh, sorry. I missed that part!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:47 PM

And funny, which REALLY pisses you off, right Amos?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:42 PM

Rig:

Are you getting slimier as he gets more popular, or is it just your chronic character coming out of its shell. Your remark was perfidious and underhanded.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:19 PM

Your choice, por favor, GG...

Oh, and if it ain't askin' too much can you make it a choice that has a mathmatical probability of being the next prez??? No, Donald Duck ain't gonna be sittin' in ther Oval Office...

BTW, if I have 'um all counted that's about the 100th shot you have taken at Obama in one week...

You need a good counselor... You are obsessed...

(How does GG spell "neurosis", Boberdz???)

Danged if I know... I can't spell it right myself...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:56 PM

Methinks the Obama cult works more like Amway, but for Democrats. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:55 PM

Two legs, two eyes, hair...

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:44 PM

But getting back to the concept of "koolaid drinking," there does seem to be a number of similarities between Jim Jones and Barack Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM

I know, Carol; and I am not in disagreement. I was simply noticing that sometimes the horse-race raises a lot more decibels than the details of implementing the good ideas which we all have.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 04:31 PM

Speak for yourself, Amos. I haven't been arguing personalities at all. I'm one of the people who has argued against the cult of personality in elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 04:17 PM

I think the problem may be that Gigi has detailed reasons for her assertions, whtether accurate or not, but she rarely takes the time to spell out which policies it is, in any camp, she wants to forward, or her specific reasons for resisting the "koolaid" enthusiasm.

Part of this is that it is easy and exciting to bet on a horse-race, without thinking much about the heart and tendons of the horses -- or what useful work they will do after the race.

So to some degree it is all koolaid, because it is not deeply about the policies but about the personalities coming around the first bend.

One thing about Obama that touched me was his lecture to parents. Even though they are voters, he didn't hesitate to get a little preachy about home discipline, turning off the TV and watching them do their homework.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:48 PM

Guest, Guest,

Congratulations on having purchased the "political buzzwords" daily calendar. I think that it is admirable that you have followed the directions and tried to use phrases like

Cognitive Dissonance,
critical thinking
and
"koolaid drinker"

as often as possible. But please allow me to point out that your self education would proceed more effectively had you actually read the definitions and were using the terms correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:36 PM

Me, too, CarolC..

The only "koolaid drinker" here is GG... Absolute inflexible "true believer"...

And I'm glad to not see things the way that GG sees 'um...

B:)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:23 PM

I don't know, Guest,Guest. I think it really all depends on one's perspective. From my perspective, I see it differently than you.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:14 PM

CarolC, those are blinders you're wearing. I may be less critical of Clinton here than Obama, but that is only because of the koolaid drinkers here.

In reality, I am just as against the Clinton machine as the Obama machine as the McCain machine.

If someone did an actual survey of the number of overly enthusiastic posts for Obama, what you are calling my prejudice would have a more realistic context.

The reality is, I criticize Obama most, because he is the candidate most often discussed here, hands down. Not because I'm predisposed to Clinton.

I am, admittedly, deeply disturbed by the lack of critical thinking exhibited in this forum by Obama's supporters. That seems to be a virtual epidemic. The same isn't true for Clinton here.

One would think those factors would be obvious, but see the Politics and Cognitive Dissonance thread if you are having trouble seeing what's happening here in Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:06 PM

Well, if they did'nt want McCain, they'd be encouraging Obama to get out of the race!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:56 PM

Want McCain for what, Rigs??? Rogain commercial???

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:56 PM

I hope, by the end of the day, that you do start thinking.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:52 PM

At the end of the day, I think many people who pretend to support Obama secretly want McCain.

LOL

You're a real comedian, Riginslinger.   ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:40 PM

At the end of the day, I think many people who pretend to support Obama secretly want McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:13 PM

I dind it amusing GG, that you feel perfectly fine about railing against Obama and his supporters and then complain that folks are supporting Obama...

If you flail away at me I'm going to defend myself... That's human nature...

Why don't you just get over your Obama fixation and leave him the heck outta threads that ain't about him and then you won't have to complain about folks who might feel it their right to defend the guy...

You are completely consumed with your dislike of Obama... Fine, there is a thread for that entitled "Popular View of Obama"...

Or maybe you can start a "I Dislike Obama" thread???

But, geeze louise, give us a break from yer fixations, thank you...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:12 PM

And this is different than Obama's conservative black nationalist Christian orthodoxy how exactly?

The difference is the corporatist connections. Even Islamic extremism has a corporatist connection in that Islamic extremism was nurtured into being by Western corporatist power mongers.


As far as I can see, Guest,Guest, the main difference between you and me on this subject is that I am criticizing Clinton and defending Obama and I admit it, and you are criticizing Obama and defending Clinton, and you don't admit it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 12:46 PM

>>And this is different than Obama's conservative black nationalist Christian orthodoxy how exactly?<<

Guest,

You are way to intelligent not to know the answer to this question. Likewise your characterization of of Trinity United Church of Christ is dishonest.   Wouldn't this be a better conversation if you approached it honestly?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 12:38 PM

BEcause "The Family" seeks to intentionally undermine the important separation between church and state, while the Trinity church does not?

An important difference, especially since they are trying to do it covertly.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 12:25 PM

And Mother Jones ran an article about this last year, but I'm guessing you found the link through the Nation article that ran this month, bringing it all up all over again.

And this is different than Obama's conservative black nationalist Christian orthodoxy how exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:47 AM

As far as I'm concerned, this article is such old news, I fail to see what relevance it has in the election. Really.

This is information that has been around for decades. I knew of the Clinton associations when Bill first ran in 1992.

What we are talking about is a lot of networks of the global ruling elite.

Ever heard of the Trilateral Commission?

Ever looked into the board linkages between Bechtel and Halliburton?

Jimmy Carter is as scary to me as the Clintons are. Does that surprise anyone here? Jimmy Carter was also the biggest presidential cheerleader for nuclear power ever to sit in the White House.

And???

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:44 AM

What other point is there to bringing up "The Family" and Clinton's supposed associations to it at all, if not to use that information to demonize her by Obama's supporters here--which both you and Carol have plainly stated you are?

I have plainly stated that I am NOT an Obama supporter. My vote for him will be a vote against Hillary. I am against Hillary precisely because of stuff like her connections to people like those in The Family as well as the other corporatist/fascist/militarist people she's in bed with.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:40 AM

Wow. CarolC, you have obviously been going through some changes of late. I'm shocked to see you, of all people, painting with these demonizing broad brush strokes here.

Did you read the article, Guest,Guest? I haven't changed. I've just had access to more information.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:25 AM

And I can't tell you how demoralized I am by Barbara Ehrenreich's partisanship.

The same way I was with Michael Moore, when he began campaigning with Nader in 2000.

Why do so many of our best thinkers, writers, artists, etc believe they have to publicly take sides and use their reputations like a bully pulpit?

My respect for them, and a number of others, has plummeted since this game on the left began in earnest in 2000.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:18 AM

And then, another Obama supporter, Amos, comes in to defend them.

Predictable, and anyone with a functioning IQ can see through your pathetic games, folks.

We get it. Jack, bobert, CarolC, Amos--you are supporting Obama.

Now, can we get beyond that point, to have intelligent discussions or not?

There is no need for you attack people who don't support Obama, or go into attack mode everytime you see someone write something critical of your candidate.

That isn't necessary. You can actually let an awful lot of commentary go without responding to "defend" your candidate.

Why you feel so threatened by these discussions of the election, I'll never know. If you have so much confidence in your candidate, why do you need to attack anyone who doesn't at ever turn? You clearly don't understand how extremist it makes you look, otherwise you wouldn't engage in such negative behavior.

Or would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:02 AM

And things that are intended as guilt by association is the game in question here. Why else bring up the subject at all, if not to demonize Clinton as a religious extremist?

What other point is there to bringing up "The Family" and Clinton's supposed associations to it at all, if not to use that information to demonize her by Obama's supporters here--which both you and Carol have plainly stated you are?

We aren't stupid, Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:34 AM

ANother twisted message, distorted beyond all recognition, for the purposes of self-aggrandizement.

The article Carol referred to focused on young turks within the "The Family" movement.

A separate article, or series of them, has linked Hillary to "The Family".

Things that are different are different, Gigi. Very first lesson.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:12 AM

"2 party man", my butt...

This is the first election cycle since 1976 where I will vote for, and perhaps even work for, a Dem...

Yes, I voted for Carter... That was my last "2 party vote"... And I worked for BobbY kennedy in '68... That was the last time I worked for a Dem...

I have supported Ralph Nader since his first run in '92 and worked for him in 2000...

I was also asked by the Green Party to run in the Board of Dupervisors race in the county in which I live but just didn't have that much spare time...

Not exactly a "2 party guy", GG...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:56 AM

"I don't really see any difference between people like this and Islamic extremists."

Wow. CarolC, you have obviously been going through some changes of late. I'm shocked to see you, of all people, painting with these demonizing broad brush strokes here.

No difference between Hilary Clinton and Islamic extremists?

And they say Ralph Nader is full of hyperbole for saying there is little difference between Republicans and Democrats! That is quite a stretch, there.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:15 AM

Experience or Just Proximity?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:11 AM

Further on HRC and The Family: Article

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:06 AM

Interesting (and frightening) article about The Family (Hillary's spiritual family)...

http://harpers.org/archive/2003/03/0079525


I don't really see any difference between people like this and Islamic extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 12:10 AM

And no one gives a shit!

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:07 PM

Bill Maher does Hillary

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:36 PM

An interesting analysis of Hillary's insistence on misrepresenting her day on the tarmac in Bosnia and related questions.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:12 PM

JOHNSTOWN, Pa. Ñ Senator Barack Obama had a few words of advice Saturday for his rival, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton: Do not drop out on my account.

ÒMy attitude is that Senator Clinton can run as long as she wants,Ó Mr. Obama, of Illinois, said at a news conference in a high school gymnasium here. ÒHer name is on the ballot. She is a fierce and formidable opponent, and she obviously believes she would make the best nominee and the best president.Ó

---

How terribly devious, wouldn't you say, Gigi?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 09:57 PM

Another grain of intelligent substance from the whirlwind. "When the system is beyond repair...".

I think this may be the core conclusion that you and I do not share, Gigi. I do not see the system as beyond repair, and maybe some day I will eat these words. Partly I am a stupid optimist. Partly I have seen enough of the positive side of human nature to remember it when things look their darkest. I have seen things get better as well as worse over the decades.

But I also know, as I said elsewhere, that the devil is in the details and making change actually occur is like hauling gravel up hill without a truck.

Still, I am voting for possibility and Bobert's smidgen of hope that we can move things into a better vein, one RPM at a time.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 09:17 PM

No, it means I have the freedom to express a dissenting opinion, regardless of how much it troubles and disturbs others.

You are still a conventional, two party man at heart, bobert. You have been as long as I've seen you posting here. You just can't imagine any solutions outside that box. It all leads back to conventional, two party electoral politics for you & virtually all Mudcatters.

No matter how many times I've said it--that I'm not a player in that game, and haven't been for over 30 years, y'all just outright refuse to accept that as a reasonable solution to the corrupt political system in the US.

But my philosophy is, when the system is beyond repair, you don't keep trying to fix it, you find something else constructive to do.

I do that in my daily life and work, so what you and the others here think of me doesn't phase me.

I know hundreds and hundreds of people, just like you. You keep playing the same ole broken record, every four years...just this one more election, one more election, one more election...

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 09:08 PM

Yeah... I understand that, GG... Kind gives you a free reign to mess with as many people as you like without exposing your own self...

Very safe.... Very safe...

Kinda like the folks who sit and dop nothing when their governemnt announces that it is about to invade another country...

Very safe... Very safe...

I'm not trying to bully you into anything...

Just seems strange that yoy have used codified language against Obama and now think the comfy-ness of yer little guest-dom gives you a pass...

Yeah, I'm a life long radical, too... Been in the trenches big time... Ain't no brag, just fact an' here in this year when history begs US not to take the luxurious way out and cast our 4th votes with Nader when there is a ***glimpse*** of hope--no, not a promise--that we at the very least stand up for something...

Like I said, no one here thinks that Obama is the panacia... Just a glimpse...

Brothers and sisters... I want to see a sea of hands... It's time to testify... Are you ready to testify???

No promises... Just a glimpse of hope...

No panacia... Just a glimpse of hope...

GG... yer playing games with folks who have been ***at life*** as long or longer than you here and your "list of particulars" agsinst Obama, in the eyes of most here, are growing tiresome...

Are you ready to testify???

You are either part of the probelm or part of the solution...

McCain, yer man???

Hillary???

No bullyin'...

Just pushin' back against yers, thank you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 08:51 PM

Sorry bobert, won't play your "I'm supporting _________ in the Celebrity Horse Race" games.

You can't intimidate or bully me into picking an imperial presidential candidate.

And I truly don't give a shit what anyone thinks of that.

Lesser of two evil voting is an exercise in futility, if you oppose American imperialism.

For me, it's that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 08:34 PM

I'm goin' with Amos on this one, GG...

I have seen (okay read) with my own eyes Amos having to do some back tracking on Iraq... I respect him for that... It takes courage, especially on the internet, to do so but Amos has done it... And not in a sneaky way like, "Geeze, if I hurt anyone's feelings then I'm sorry" but the real deal of sayin', "Geeze, I messed that one up"...

As fir myself??? Well, I mighta messed some stuff up but I had Iraq right from the jump and there was a time here when it was me and maybe a few others, Ebbie and dianavan being a couple, had it right at a time when just about everyone else was out buying mu8shroom clouds but nevermind mushroom clouds...

But Amos??? He sho nuff has been a case study in courage... Sho nuff has...

But nevermind that, G-zer...

What's yer pick??? No vote??? Another Nader vote??? McCain??? Hillary???

We all know that you won't vote for Obama so unmless yer gonna write someone in there are no other choices...

So, step out from behind the acedemia... This is the real world... A world in which there are no candidates who are electable who can deliver the planks of your dream campaign if it was you in the running...

Yeah, easy to find fault... Tougher to have to stand up and say, "Hey, I'm supportin' _____________"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 07:57 PM

A lot of people have had their name bandied about in political threads. Moreover sometimes they quote each other.

"Regularly admit to the errors of my ways. It's a bit hard to know for sure when that happens, since there seems to have been at least one other person posting the Mudcat as "Guest,guest".

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 07:54 PM

Oh, I've been wrong. I was completely wrong about the tide turning in 2004. I was wrong about the way things were going in 2000. I was wrong in the early run up top the Iraq war when I voiced the possibility that Bush might be acting on inside intelligence he could not share--I was wrong about trying to make peace with Martin Gibson, several times.

I have acted hatefully towards Bush. But I do not think I have been wrong headed about him, do you?

Let me also point out that I opposed Bush and his war long before it became a popular idea; and I supported Obama when a lot of people were still chiming in about his terrible lack of experience, and so on. I don't believe that just because I don't follow your ill-explained line of reasoning that I am not thinking for myself. I know the exact reasons I recognize Obama as the better candidate. I have articulated them over and over, and have yet to see you disprove them with any but sarcastic "you make me sick" type remarks, name calling, and other histrionics, which don't cut much mustard in my book.

Sorry f I step on your toes. But that does not mean I will shut up.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 07:30 PM

Oh don't worry, Amos. You have popularity and conventional wisdom on your winning side. You are righteous, because you have the masses behind you. And everyone knows what everyone agrees is what everyone says it right.

I'm just a thorn in your right, winning side is all. Which is why you claim I hate.

I don't hate, Amos. I think for myself. Regularly admit to the errors of my ways.

I'm still waiting to see a single instance of you EVER admitting you are wrong, wrong headed, or hateful.

Hmmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 07:22 PM

A tidy little dodge, Gigi, if a bit hateful.

The devil's in the details, and making numbers of people move through details takes a whole lot more on the ball than just a bright idea of how it oughter be. IF that is all you bring, you get steamrollered quick in the real confluence of rasty opinion. Obama adds the critical elements of diplomacy and pan-communication. You do not, from what I have seen here, have that missing piece. I don't know if Nader does.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 07:06 PM

This quote of King best describes many an Obamamaniac/Kerry apologist/Bush hater here in Mudcat, IMO:

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity."

Mmmhmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 06:36 PM

First of all, those words were spoken by Dr. King....

But nevermind that, GG...

Your pick outta the trio/foursome/fivesome???

It's easy to balst away at folks but if you have hope, as you say you do, then hope involves choices... It doesn't just happen just because...

As for hate??? I heard a'plenty of it in your posts... Okay, you may say it's dislike but it comes accross as the real deal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 05:17 PM

tsk tsk tsk, blocking my access to the forum again, are we Mducat Elves for Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 04:38 PM

It comes from someone whose name has been bandied about A LOT in the political threads. So let those who have been throwing that name around a lot tell you, McGrath.

The idea that Clinton is somehow fighting dirty is just pathetic.

You want to see politics and candidates fighting dirty & using the race card, the religion card & the sex card?

Rent the movie "Street Fight".

One of Obama's high profile supporters is the star of the show. And if it was him running, I'd vote for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 04:22 PM

When you give a quote it's a good idea to give an indication of where the quote comes from. (GUEST,Guest - PM Date: 29 Mar 08 - 12:23 PM)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM

Voting won't end the war, regardless of who people vote for. Presidents don't end wars because voters say that is what they want. Ever.

Making the country ungovernable will end the war, just as it did with Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM

Its ridiculous to consider McCain as an option. He has only military solutions.

Hillary relies on her political connections to get things done but will she be able to do about the rice shortage?

Obama is at least capable of diplomacy.

How about Obama with Nader as a running mate?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 03:37 PM

We are now down the a 99% probabilty that one of three people will be the next president: McCain, Clinton or Obama... Okay, there is always an outside chance that Al Gore will be the next president if Obama and Hillary knock each other out...

So, with being a given lets look at what these three people have said about Iraq:

A. McCain: 100 more years

B. Clinton: withdraw some troops within 3 months, or close to thar

C. Obama: withdraw a brigade with in a month, or close to that...

So having porfessed a desire to end the war, GG is in a voting booth with the following choices:

McCain/Clinton/Nader

or

McCain/Obama/Nader

Oh, what to do???

I mean, lets get real here, GG... Obama ain't some panacea here but these are the choices...

Yeah, okay, I've voted for Nader 3 times now and look where it has gotten me or him???

So, you gonna vote for Nader again this time??? Not me... Yeah, I'll vote for Obama but if it's McCain/Cinton/Nader I think I'll juts take a pass...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 02:54 PM

I don't hate them, but I wouldn't hoist a mug.

I think that Bush, Cheney, Libby, Rove and Armitage are literally traitors. I could not bring myself to associate with them until after they have served their time. Or at least acknowledged their wrong doing and apologized to Valerie Plame and to the people of this country for lying them into a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 02:23 PM

Gigi:

I hate to bring this up, but a number of people in this forum would probably agree that your own posts have been laced with high doses of hate. Perhaps there is some cross-projecting going on.

My hatred of the Bush Administration is not toward the individuals, but toward the stupidity of their policies, and the damage they have caused.

I am sure I would be happy to hoist a mug with any of them, once they were harmless. Before that point I would be concerned to stay alert for machinations.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 12:49 PM

No, hate isn't too strong a word to use for the invective against Clinton or the Bush administration we routinely see in this forum--especially when those peddlers of hate who reside here routinely use the language of hate in their political discourse here. Look up this thread, and my point is made quite succinctly.

Nor is the turning of false to true and true to false among those who are most vituperative here, a mere mirage of mine.

No, I think what we are seeing with these conventional politicos is pure hate, which leads to their irrationality when it comes to deciphering the truth of the current body politic in both the US and globally.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 12:35 PM

Gg - That was quite a rant, but "hate" is a pretty strong word.

                      It would be interesting to know who was behind the publication of Obama's books. That seems to be what propelled him into the spotlight.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 12:23 PM

"Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true."

So if you find yourself hating Clinton, or hating Obama, or hating McCain, or hating all Republicans/Democrats, liberals/neo-cons...

...you might want to take the above quote to heart.

Because I do hear a lot of hate being spewed in these political threads by Obama supporters. So, if I am on anybody's "side" here, it is on the side of those who aren't spewing hatred.

I also see a tremendous amount of poisoned thinking--poisoned by hatred for those who are perceived as the "political enemy", that has led to a whole lot of confusing true with false, and false with true in these threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 12:11 PM

And for god's sake, don't forget Katrina.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 12:08 PM

Another good book for insights on race & gender, is Margaret Hunter's "Race, Gender, and the Politics of Skin Tone". Goes far beyond the alarmist & reactionary movement in urban education to "save" the boys of color at the expense of girls of color.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 12:04 PM

In Minnesota, where Jesse Ventura rode Ross Perot's coattails to the governorship, the portion of the electorate who voted for Perot was almost exclusively Republican, and there are numbers here to prove the connection.

I think Rigs has it. Perot had a personal vendetta against Bush I. That is what his whole candidacy was about.

Jesse Ventura had a personal vendetta going against the Establishment in general, yet didn't pull the "traditional" anti-establishment types (who lean far left and far right in the US political spectrum). He pulled in the disgruntled Libertarian/Republican right, just like Perot.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:58 AM

There isn't going to be a "responsible, safe withdrawal" from Iraq.

It will look a lot like the withdrawal from Vietnam, but with sand.

"Trimming" the tax cuts for the wealthy?

Oh please Amos. You are showing your true wealthy elite colors.

We don't need a "short term goals" presidency. The only thing that will save the US from it's current slide toward a demise resembling that of Greece and Rome, is radical transformation of the body politic. Not voting to maintain the status quo every 4 years, which is what most people here are arguing we do.

Therein lies the primrose path to doom.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:43 AM

"Riginslinger, most of the people I know who voted for Perot were people who usually voted Democrat."

             Everyone I knew who voted for Perot usually voted Republican, but I was in California at the time where immigration was a really big deal.

             In any event, I think the Democrats need to fashion their primaries as closely to the actual general election as possible, or the people that are being left out of the process now will continue to dissapoint them in the fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:38 AM

I agree that you have an excellent agenda there.

The first steps, if you were to break it down into manageable things to get completed would be, perhaps, to bring about a responsible, safe withdrawal from Iraq, trim back the imbalance in tax profiles between the high revenue individuals and the middle class, and look to remedy the current sinkhole in credit markets and the home-loan swamp. ANd set about establishing a health care plan that is not full of holes.

I think you will find these are the firat short term goals of Barack Obama's platform. In other words, his goals do not conflict with yours -- yours are certainly deeper, wider, and longer term.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:28 AM

I hope that she soon goes back to doing her important political work. I feel guilty each and every time I distract her from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:25 AM

CarolC, it would also be best to remember he wrote the book long before the primaries began, and some of what he was predicting has already been proven wrong.

But that's OK, isn't it? It doesn't mean he can't give us insights. Also, it will be a much more interesting read, in all likelihood, after the general. So that gives you plenty of time to read his other books first!

Start w/his National Book Critics award winner "Content of our Character". Working as I do, in the middle of the "black/white" racial divide in urban education, I thought he nailed it like nobody I've ever read, and the person whose opinions had come closest to my own prior to that time would probably be bell hooks.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:19 AM

"The last time I saw GG lose an argument here she went all scorched earth on us, blamed our arguments on our being men and said we had our heads up our asses."

Actually, my opinion on that wasn't predicated upon losing an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:18 AM

Thanks, Guest,Guest. I will keep in mind what you said about his books. But on the subject of this election, I'm taking what he said with a really big grain of salt.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:15 AM

Like I said CarolC, come back to the conversation after you've read a few of his books. And I'm saying that genuinely, not just as a fleeting point scoring thing in an internet debate. I think you'd really get a lot out of his books. You could easily leave out his book on Obama (though I'm still planning to read it, because his book on Obama is more about race relations than it is him).

I always respect most the opinions of people who listen to ALL sides in public policy debates, not just one or two. One reason why I like reading Steele. He challenges my values and beliefs. I always consider that to be A Good Thing.

I hope you understand my remarks to you here are made in that spirit. I really do respect you as one of the best thinkers in this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:15 AM

Riginslinger, most of the people I know who voted for Perot were people who usually voted Democrat. It looks to me like neither one of us has any proof either way about who the Perot voters damaged the most in that election, and both of us are only going on guesses.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:13 AM

I think we should all let GG alone so that she can continue her important work saving the world. Of course she likes Clinton. Their tactics are the same. The last time I saw GG lose an argument here she went all scorched earth on us, blamed our arguments on our being men and said we had our heads up our asses.

I think ignoring her invective from this point on would indicate to her pretty clearly why Hillary should not be candidate. When you start drawing gender lines and insulting people you have to work with later. You lose the credibility and support you need to get things done.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:06 AM

Although I think I'll comment on this one...

I also think you are wrong in your opinion that he is the prototype bargainer.

What could be more of an appeasement than to let us White folk in on the big secrets of why Black people behave as they do around Whites? That's the ultimate suck up. He's the ultimate bargainer.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:03 AM

You're entitled to your opinions, Guest,Guest. I disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:03 AM

McGrath, I imagine there would be a handful of Dem elites calling for Obama to capitulate if the roles were reversed, yes.

But you might take note of the fact that not many Dem elites are calling for Clinton to pull out of the race.

Obama's supporters are calling for Clinton to pull out of the race.

Enough said?

In an open and free democracy, one person/group isn't allowed to dictate another person/group, when/where/how to stop participating in the democratic process.

Even though many Democratic voters think they should be able to dictate when/where/how their opponents should be allowed to participate in the democratic process. Which is why I think most of Obama's supporters are the same assholes who made Nader their party's Darth Vader, to excuse their own incompetence in the leadership sweepstakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:54 AM

Like I said CarolC, if you haven't read his books, you are missing a considerable part of the debate on race relations in the US in the last 20 years. His writings and opinions are not perceived by anyone involved in the critical dialogues on race as either "overly simplistic" or "rather childish", so that really lessens my respect for your opinions to hear you make such impudent claims.

I also think you are wrong in your opinion that he is the prototype bargainer. Like I said, I disagree with the majority of his conservative political opinions. But his opinions about race and his contributions to the discourse over the past 20 years puts him right on the same level as Henry Louis Gates, bell hooks, or Amiri Baraka.

To say you aren't an Obama supporter, but an Obama voter is pretty disingenuous IMO, and I'm disappointed to hear you make such claims. You are often one of the more intelligent thinkers in this forum, and an articulate person generally. But your opinions on the whole Obama/Clinton thing are pretty muddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:47 AM

I didn't listen to a 4 minute video, Guest,Guest. I listened to a talk that lasted about an hour.

I think Mr. Steele shot himself in the foot with his entire thesis. As I said, according to his own thesis, Mr. Steele himself is the ultimate negotiator, and according to his thesis, negotiators can't be trusted. I found his entire premise to be overly simplistic and rather childish.

I'm not an Obama supporter myself. I'm still a Kucinich supporter. I'm voting for Obama in the primary because I really don't want Hillary to be the president of this country. Events in recent weeks have persuaded me that Hillary is far more corporatist/fascist and much more of a neo-Con than Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:45 AM

She isn't, and I've never advocated that position.

Try reading what I actually write, instead of reading your opinions into what I write.

Neither Clinton or Obama would touch the above agenda with a 10 ft pole.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:43 AM

It doesn't suck to be me at all, bobert. I have lots of hope and plenty of faith. But not in the current political system.

My hope and faith lies in people who aren't quite so easily bamboozled, and who have integrity. That isn't anyone currently serving in the US political institutions of the US Congress, or it's executive branch, and now, most of the legal system as well.

My hope and faith also doesn't lie in the US. I think the cause here is lost. I'm putting my eggs, in this part of the world, in Latin America & the south.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:42 AM

GG-
Just out of curiosity, why do you feel that Senator Clinton is more apt to effect your (excellent) agenda than Senator Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:35 AM

I agree, McG...

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:35 AM

OK Amos, just a few--

1) Impeach Bush

2) Reform the anti-consumer laws that have gutted the gains made by the consumer advocacy movement, including: government safeguarding of pension plans, the same way government safeguards bank deposits up to $100,000.

3) Repeal the Bankruptcy Reform Act, and rewrite the bankruptcy code to protect consumers from predatory lenders, including student loan giants, and write separate codes for medical bankruptcy cases caused by patients being charged obscene amounts of money just to get the medical care their life threatening conditions require.

4) Pass new, sweeping laws to regulate the credit and mortgate industries and protect consumers from predatory lenders.

5) Update the EPA & bring environmental protections laws into the 21st century.

6) Rewrite corporate law in a way that no longer gives corporations the biggest loophole of the 20th century, which was to equate corporate rights with rights of the individual under the US Constitutional law.

7) End the war, get the US troops back in the US, Israel the hell out of the Palestinian territories, and undertake a WWII size Marshall plan equivalent for the Middle East to transform the face of the Arab world. And do it without the help of the corrupt regimes in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

8) Put the collapse of the agricultural economy based upon family farming on the front burner, and provide small businesses incentives to locate in rural areas of the US to revitalize the Main Street economies.

I could go on, and on, and on. I have barely mentioned foreign affairs beyond the clusterfuck of US policies in the Middle East, but there is plenty to be done in that area as well. Like stop ignoring Latin America completely. Open the borders completely between Canada & the US & the US & Mexico in the same way the European Union opened it's borders.

Start fighting the REAL enemies of outrageous burgeoning of human slavery, sex trafficking, including child soldiers, child labor, and child prostitution. Create new global industries based upon mandatory, free education for every child in the world, new global industries based upon every human being receiving quality medical care, based upon every human being having environmentally sustainable and energy self-sufficient housing. Stop clearcutting the forests of the planet. Regulate fast food & sugar based food industries (junk foods) and fight obesity and poor health using the same mandates as we have used for drugs, alcohol and tobacco.

Is that enough for you Amos? For a start?

Now, what is Obama going to do for you?

Answer: none of the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:28 AM

If Hillary Clinton were a man, NO ONE would be demanding an exit from the race for the sake of party unity.

Is that nonsense or is it nonsense? Imagine Obama was trailing Clinton at this point - does anyone imagine there wouldn't be overwhelming demands for him to drop out?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:21 AM

It must suck to be you, GG...

Here I am, a guitarist who started playin' in the early 60's and who played every day of my life until 3 months ago when I almost overnight went from being physically able to do stuff to being so stoved up with a severely pinched nerve that I can't drive myself, I can't even brush my own hair, I can't begin to play the guitar, I type with one finger on my functional hand but I have have hope???

Yet you have no hope???

Like I said, it must really suck to be you...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:19 AM

Watching Obama speak for himself is what I was suggesting. I am sorry you are so damn depressed. Try learning new things. Seriously.

So--what's the answer to my question up thread?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:11 AM

"On what basis do you say that, Riginslinger?"

                   Carol - I'm sorry; I should have explained. There are any number of scholars around now who dispute the claim that Perot split his support equally between Bush and Clinton.
                   If you will recall the events of the time, Perot managed to piss-off the blacks when he went to a black forum and refered to them as "you people." Hispanics were public enemy number one for him. If you watched a Perot rally, the one thing that was noticable was, there wasn't a person of color in the audience.
                   He had some kind of personal fued going on with George H.W. Bush, and there was a lot of speculation that the only reason he was running was to prevent Bush Sr. from getting re-elected. That speculation was further promoted when, about half way through the campaign, he quit. His supporters convinced him to get back into the race, and he did in a half-hearted manner, but many of us believed at the time that once he figured he'd done the damage to Bush, he'd done what he'd come there to do, and had just gone on to other things.
                  The polls that suggest that he split the vote equally between Bush and Clinton could have been constructed to produce the results the pollsters wanted them to produce, because there was still a large number of, call them "Eisenhower Republicans" who didn't like that Reagan had made a deal with the religious-right-wing for the purpose of bolstering his numbers. Those are the folks I suspect that were mostly backing Perot, and if Perot hadn't been there, I further suspect they would have either voted for Bush or simply would have stayed home from the polls.
                  After having voted, however, if an exit polster were to ask a voter--"If Perot had not been on the ballot, would you have voted for Clinton?"--if it had been one of the Eisenhower Republicans, he very likely would have replied, "Yes."
                  That's how I think they arrived at their numbers. But if Perot had not been on the ballot, many of the people question would not have voted, and would therefore not have been there to answer the question.
                  I hope that makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:10 AM

Oh yes, Amos. I'll run right out and watch your boy on The View, that intellectual lion of critical thinking and debate on public policy.

And while I'm at it, I'll pick up the latest copy of People magazine to read all about how Obama is related to Brad Pitt and Clinton to Angelina Jolie.

Because that tells me so much about their policy positions, their vision for the future of our nation.

This is the American Idol presidential sweepstakes, pure and simple.

But after 8 years of Bush/Cheney, no one feels like laughing at the laughingstock the US has become. Not anymore. Now, we are just depressed. Depressed, Amos. Not hopeful, shiny new and bright. Depressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:08 AM

Well, Gigi, here's a question for you.

If you were calling the shots at the oval office, with Nader as your advisor in whatever capacity, what are the critical steps you would take to start remedying the situation as you see it?

What would your platform, policies and programs look like?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:03 AM

I'm not missing a thing Bobert. Obama ain't the cure to Bush/Cheney/Rove neo-con politics.

There isn't any difference between Clinton and Obama. There is only the difference in how their supporters feel about their candidates emotionally. There is nothing rational about it. The Democratic race is now being driven exclusively by emotions. And that is really fucking dangerous.

Instead of shouting Nader down and drowning out what he is trying to say, every progressive in the nation should be screaming for ruling elite to be brought down. But the progressive movement in the US is silent. Bloody fucking silent.

The Democratic party, including Clinton, Obama, Dean, et al are to blame for that. Directly to blame for it.

Anyone calling for impeachment of Bush? Anyone hollering from the rooftops about how contract law no longer exists in the US?

Sure--Nader.

But the so-called progressive movement have made a Darth Vader out of him, so there is no one. No articulate, passionate voices with the command and stature of a Nader is waiting in the wings.

As far as I'm concerned, the US is pretty fucking doomed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:01 AM

The expression about "doing an Oprah" is just ridiculous.

Listen to his platform, go watch his explanations -- sit through his "The View" discussion.

You are watching a thoughtful and charismatic man with good ideas finding a way forward. He has said nothing about giveaways, and although people like him, they have not heistated to throw hard questions at him; and so far, he seems to have handled them intelligently and in a well-reasoned, positive manner.

his emphasis on finding common ground, on listening to both sides, and on not believing he or his party has a sole claim on wisdom may make him look "conservative", because he gives thought to what he does. But Ithink you'll find he is actually a rational progressive.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 09:48 AM

Think yer missing a point here, GG, and that is the American people have had enough of Rovish tactics... The Clintons might being playing a "good political game" for the last election cycle or the one before that but they have not recognized, nor do they recognize, that ***slime*** is out...

Other than the Obama's slip up with the "Walmart" punch I don't see where he has done anything other than defend himself and defend himself in a manner that has won him respect... Poll numbers concur...

BTW, I will agree with you that an Obama presidency won't be a new car in every driveway... No one's presidency can be that with the messes that Bush will be leaving behind... Reminds me of the Reagan years with so much red ink at the end... No new cars... That is just reality... Who better to deliver that message than someone who the American people believe is the strongest candidate to unite the country... That, two weeks after the ***Wright Ambush*** shouldn't be Obama but...

...according to recent polls, it is...

I don't think antyone who supports Obama is living in some dream world here when it comes to the next 4 years but folks who have had enough of Rove and Clintonism...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 09:28 AM

This idea that people are losing respect for the Clintons because they play a good political game is just ridiculous. They are very, very good at what they do: Machiavellian politics.

Thing is, they've met their match at Machiavellian politics in Obama, who is every bit as good at the game as they are--maybe even better, as he hasn't been in the game nearly as long as they have.

But believe me, if Obama is the next president of the US, I believe most of his supporters will be shocked at how conservative this guy actually is, and how much of an insider game he will play, if elected.

Shit, you'd think from listening to the Obamamaniacs that he was gonna do an Oprah and buy everybody a new car.

Which just proves the maxim, you can fool most the people most the time...

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 09:16 AM

Gosh, I hate to agree with, GG, but since Clinton has a mathmatical chance of Clinton catching Obama in pledged delegates then I say let the fight continue...

If, however, she wins Pa. by only 55/45 and looses North Carolina by the same margin then the math may chenge to the point where she would have to win the remaining states by 75/25 in order to catch Obama... That will be a different situation...

I think that the Clintons are not yet capable of entertaining the thought that have lost, or not won... The Pa./NC should clarify it and then it coyuld be time for the Dems to turn up the heat on the Clintons...

Until then, she needs to stop punching Obama because it is now apparent to even the most casual political observer that he has a deft counterpunch...

But there is a second reason why she should quit punching Obama and that is her (and Bill's) political futures and she is loosing political gound with her personal attacks...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 08:15 AM

If Hillary Clinton were a man, NO ONE would be demanding an exit from the race for the sake of party unity.

But for some reason, there are a lot of sexist jerks (and I include many women appeasers in that category) who think that because she is a woman, they should be able to tell her what to do.

hehehe

Why should the primary process not move forward? Last night, as I watched the Lehrer report, both their in-house pundits agreed there was absolutely no reason for Clinton to get out of the race, because she still has a shot a winning, and is virtually tied w/Obama. Yes, Obama is a few hundred thousand votes ahead in the popular vote, but that could change overnight. Yes, Obama is ahead in the delegate count, but depending upon how the upcoming primaries turn out, that too could change. Let the voters have their say--that is what is most positive about this long of a primary season.

Why so many anti-democracy folks around here? They seem to fear letting the process work itself out. A bunch of nervous ninny mongers.

Clinton may have a slim shot at winning, but far stranger things have happened in politics.

CarolC, Shelby Steele's premise on Obama is that he wouldn't be able to win in November, not that he wouldn't be able to win in the primaries. In fact, during his CSPAN Book Talk, it sounded as if he thought Obama was very popular with whites looking to Obama to redeem our racial guilt through electing him & thereby transcending the history of racism in the US. So he thought Obama had a good chance of winning Democrats, but not the general election voters, to his side.

As to his writings about race in general, if you dismiss him out of hand based upon a 4 minute You Tube video, you may not understand just how significant this guy's contribution has been in the past 20 years to the debate on race in America. He is a very, very smart guy, and an excellent writer. He is politically very conservative, but that doesn't scare me, or prevent me from listening to what the guy has to say about race. At least I'm honest enough to admit that he has as much right to comment thoughtfully on race as Cornel West does.

This thread's level of hysteria is quite amusing. The Obamamaniacs are so shrill, so strident, one wonders what exactly their stake is in this thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 11:56 PM

On what basis do you say that, Riginslinger?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 11:35 PM

"Perot took more votes from Clinton than he did from the Republicans..."


             Absolutely STUPID, no matter what any stuffed shirt says.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 11:32 PM

Hillary's counter argument is that the process should roll on through; there is nothing wrong with spirited debate. I am not unsympathetic to this view; compared to the fisticuffs of nineteenth century hinterlands, this has been a civilized procedure! But at the same time I think the more prep time we have to shoot down the Dirt and Defamation machine the better off we will be.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 10:42 PM

Perot took more votes from Clinton than he did from the Republicans...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080327194111AAlLUk9

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 10:31 PM

No, not really. Up until fairly recently, the candidate was selected by the conventions. Bill Clinton won because Ross Perot got into the race in 1992, and Jimmy Carter won because nobody could stand Nixon.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 09:37 PM

If the Democrats don't get rid of caucuses, they never will get a presidential candidate elected.

Well, this explains all of those people calling themselves Democrats who were elected as president in the past. They weren't really Democrats at all! (I had my suspicions... )

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 05:10 PM

If two people enter into an obstacle race, you don't expect one of them who is losing suddenly insist that it should have been a flat race without any obstacles, and that they should be awarded the victory on that basis.
..................................

Primary systems and general elections are different animals, and they have different purposes.

The point of a primary system is presumably to ensure that the best candidate wins through to stand in the election. Its not an election in itself, its a preparation for the election. It is at least arguable that primaries are a better way of ensuring that the best candidate is put forward.

When it comes to the election it is not about ensuring that the best candidate wins, but the one who gets the most votes. That applies even even if they are not the best candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 05:06 PM

Well, I guess that Peggy Noonan is off the Clinton's Christmas card list...

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 04:52 PM

And not even then if they don't get their nominating process worked out. Of course, if things go into a really deep recession between now and November, the Democrat will probably win.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 04:29 PM

>>>"Hillary is still claiming that she "Won" Texas. Obama got more delegates."
                      Hillary did win Texas, and the delegate results points out the undemocratic nature of caucuses. If the Democrats don't get rid of caucuses, they never will get a presidential candidate elected.<<<

Of course you are correct. Alas we will have to wait until 2012 to see our first Democrat elected President.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 04:19 PM

"Hillary is still claiming that she "Won" Texas. Obama got more delegates."


                      Hillary did win Texas, and the delegate results points out the undemocratic nature of caucuses. If the Democrats don't get rid of caucuses, they never will get a presidential candidate elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 03:40 PM

I'm watching the Shelby Steele talk now. He's already been proven wrong in his (in my opinion, rather childish) thesis. He has postulated that Edwards has a better chance of getting elected because, since he's not a "bound" Black American, he can tell us what he really thinks, and so we know what we're getting with him, and that since Obama is what he calls a "negotiator" and is therefore "bound", we can't really know what he thinks, and if Obama ever tells us what he thinks, we won't vote for him.

Two of the many things that are wrong with this... Obama is still in the race. Edwards isn't. So we know that Edwards is not as electable as Obama, and secondly, we now know a lot more about what Obama really thinks about things than we did when Mr. Steele gave his talk, and every time Obama tells us what he thinks, his poll numbers go up. One example of this is Steel's assertion that when Bill Cosby said he thinks Blacks should take more responsibility for their advancement, White people turned against him, but Obama said essentially the same thing in his speech about Reverend Wright, and yet his poll numbers when up after the speech.

Ironically, Mr. Steel, if we are to accept his thesis about the two kinds of Blacks, is the ultimate example of the kind he's calling "the negotiator", telling us Whites all the secrets of the way Black people, according to him, think about their place relation to Whites. If what he says about negotiators is true, we don't really have any reason to accept what he says as being true. He has sewn the seeds of his own discrediting.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 03:07 PM

"What, really, is Mrs. Clinton doing? She is having the worst case of cognitive dissonance in the history of modern politics. She cannot come up with a credible, realistic path to the nomination. She can't trace the line from "this moment's difficulties" to "my triumphant end." But she cannot admit to herself that she can lose. Because Clintons don't lose. She can't figure out how to win, and she can't accept the idea of not winning. She cannot accept that this nobody from nowhere could have beaten her, quietly and silently, every day. (She cannot accept that she still doesn't know how he did it!)

She is concussed. But she is a scrapper, a fighter, and she's doing what she knows how to do: scrap and fight. Only harder. So that she ups the ante every day. She helped Ireland achieve peace. She tried to stop Nafta. She's been a leader for 35 years. She landed in Bosnia under siege and bravely dodged bullets. It was as if she'd watched the movie "Wag the Dog," with its fake footage of a terrified refugee woman running frantically from mortar fire, and found it not a cautionary tale about manipulation and politics, but an inspiration."

(PEggy Noonan, from Jack's excellent link)Says it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 02:12 PM

Peggy Noonan gets it.

Hillay

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 01:37 PM

If she had any honor she would be competing with Obama to see who could tear the most support from McCain instead of threatening the sitting Democrats in the House and Senate.

"Change the rules or lose your funding."

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 01:31 PM

Her actual options, growing slimmer by the day, will be to suborn the process, by finding some kind of leverage to persuade the superdelegates they should support the person with fewer popular votes and fewer delegates. The button she will push for doing this is to scare the supers with nightmare pictures of John McCain winning, by claiming he will be able to step on Obama's weak spots effectively in the campaign.

Her most honorable path would be to throw herself behind Obama and create all the anticipatory defense against the RNC "dirt-and-defamation" machine she could. More likely she will create D&D ammunition for that machine in an effort to undermine the party's winner in her own favor.

It is not an easy call on her part, invested as she is in being a persistent, determined winner of the DNC cominating process. But it would be the honorable call, however unlikely.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM

Hillary is still claiming that she "Won" Texas. Obama got more delegates.

When the rules favor her, She squawks about sticking to the rules. When they don't, she squawks about abandoning the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 12:23 PM

Well, it's beginning to look like Hillary needs all the help she can get.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 11:18 AM

I'm finding that the Republicans in another discussion forum I frequent see Obama as a bigger threat than Hillary. They're working hard to go after Obama, but they're not talking about Hillary at all. And last night I learned about some more Republicans who crossed party lines in their state's primaries in order to vote for Hillary. These are people who hate Hillary with a passion. I know of quite a few of those.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 10:34 AM

Let me see if I have this right, GG...

Obama leads Clinton in most staes won, most votes, most delegates and hasn't been the first to strike any blow but counterpunched when hit by Clinton and, if I have this correct...

...he's the one tearing up the Dem Party???

Geeze, GG... That is one huge and unfathomable step in logic...

No, lets just say that that arguement don't hunt...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 10:28 AM

Ron - You were talking about imagined foes, which led me to wonder if you thought I was as delusional as you seem to be.
                        But it is encouraging to see that there are more and more people supporting Hillary. If Obama gets the nomination, it looks to me like it will be President McCain for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 09:06 AM

Rig--

So all your real foes have black or brown skin? That's interesting. And says a lot about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 09:05 AM

And of course not only are Genie's objections to Hillary's stance on Michigan and Florida valid, she actually agreed long before Michigan and Florida voted, that those votes would not count. It's only after "winning" them that she wants them counted. There just may be a slight whiff of hypocrisy in her attitude.

And how concerned do you think she would have been about "disenfranchising" FL and MI if she had won Super Tuesday handily, as she had planned, and Obama had dropped out?

It is in fact absurd to talk of "disenfranchising" in this sense since many times the nominee is known early in the schedule of primaries--and nobody raises much sand about the "rights" of the people in the states voting later in primaries. Some states obviously must vote later than others--unless it were a national primary on one day---which would obviously only reward the person who had that time had the name recognition and the money to make the media buys necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 08:45 AM

Last night, I was watching Book Talk on C-SPAN, and Shelby Steele was on talking about his book about Obama, which I haven't read. I'm not a huge fan of Steele, he is far too conservative for my tastes. But his National Book Critic Circles Award winning book, "The Content of Our Character : A New Vision of Race In America", was excellent.

Bill Moyers recently interviewed him, and you can view the interview at You Tube here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nydmeu09CA&feature=related

The name of Steele's book is "A Bound Man: Why We Are Excited About Obama and Why He Can't Win".

I might just have to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 08:26 AM

And even more hehehe as I read my morning google news:

Obama suggests he would have left his Chicago church if Wright kept preaching

Associated Press

Last update: March 28, 2008 - 12:09 AM

WASHINGTON - White House hopeful Barack Obama suggests he would have left his Chicago church had his longtime pastor, whose fiery anti-American comments about U.S. foreign policy and race relations threatened Obama's campaign, not stepped down.

"Had the reverend not retired, and had he not acknowledged that what he had said had deeply offended people and were inappropriate and mischaracterized what I believe is the greatness of this country, for all its flaws, then I wouldn't have felt comfortable staying at the church," Obama said Thursday during a taping of the ABC talk show, "The View." The interview will be broadcast Friday.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 08:17 AM

I see there is still plenty of koolaid to go around.

I wonder why Obama supporters can't see that *they* are the ones who are tearing the party asunder, and insuring the party won't unify coming out of the convention.

Rocket scientists for Obama 27/7 and SURRENDER DOROTHY! (OOPS! of course we meant Hillary)

hehehe

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 07:54 AM

"Rig--And why is it that your imagined foes all seem to have brown or black skin?"

                        Imagined foes?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 07:50 AM

"...but we all know in Democratic primaries it's not winner-take-all,..."

                      But if it was, Hillary would be the candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Genie
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 02:49 AM

Clinton's campaign team is also maintaining that Bill Richardson, if superdelegates need to follow the will of the voters, should support her because she "won New Mexico." (I.e., she got about .5% more votes than Obama did, but we all know in Democratic primaries it's not winner-take-all, so nobody really "wins a state," and Obama got almost as many delegates from NM as Clinton did.)   But where is it written that following "the will of the voters" means every governor or Senator has to go by who won more votes in his/her state? Would that mean that members of the House of Representatives should vote for whoever won their district? The "will of the voters" is also reflected in who wins more overall delegates from the primaries, who wins the overall popular vote, and maybe who "wins" more "states."

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 02:02 AM

Her argument about disenfranchisement is revealed as hypocritical compared to her insistence that delegates do not _have_ to do what the popular vote requires...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Genie
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 12:59 AM

Oh, yeah, I forgot this little item on my list:

Hilary broke with the party and most of her colleagues in putting her name on the Michigan primary ballot, despite everyone being told before the fact that if Michican jumped the gun the delegates would not be seated. Now she's insisting that it would "disenfranchise the state of Michigan" if the results of that ridiculous "election" were not counted -- an election where Obama, Dodd, Biden, and Edwards were not on the ballot AND in which writing their names in would have gotten the whole ballot discarded! I admit it's a no-win situation, but how can she keep a straight face and claim that it would be fair to count that state as a "victory" over candidates who were not even OPTIONS on that ballot?   It's disingenuous of her to pretend that she didn't get a humongous advantage just by her name being one of only two names on the ballot (the other being Kucinich).

Florida is a little less clear, as both her name and Barack's were on the ballot, even though he (and Edwards) didn't campaign there, and because it was the Republican-led state legislature that upped the date.   But she focuses on how unfair it would be to (follow the stated rules) and NOT seat those delegates, but she dismisses the unfairness there would be to the voters who didn't vote because they'd been told it wouldn't count, if those delegates were now to be seated.   Her sense of justice and fairness seems very selective.
And, again, her stance is a thumb-the-nose at the Democratic Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 11:48 PM

Rig--

And why is it that your imagined foes all seem to have brown or black skin? Inquiring minds want to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 11:40 PM

"Are you being underhanded and passive-aggressive on purpose? Or just unawares, so to speak?"


                      Underhanded!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 11:37 PM

Why in the world would anyone need him?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 11:37 PM

Don't bother Rig with facts. He is determined to cherish his myths--Obama the Moslem, Obama the crazed black power advocate, Obama the traitor, etc. And once he learns something--or thinks he has--from his sterling sources, Rush, Sean, Ann, etc.--he's incapable of taking in any contrary information. Rather like Mr. Bush. And the similarities between GWB and Hillary have already been noted.

With his mental capacity, it's no wonder he's a stalwart Hillary supporter.

It is also interesting that his imagined foes also seem to be brown-skin--(the terrible invasion of Mexicans)---or black- skin people.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 11:30 PM

And there was the fact that Hillary's pastor supported Rev Wright, and that Bill had Rev Wright in the White House when the Starr Report came out.

Rev. Wright was OK when Billary needed him.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 11:27 PM

If we apply the standard Hillary is using to Hillary, Guest,A Supporter, she comes out looking even worse than you think Obama does, by virtue of her membership to the organization called "The Family" which was started by a fascist, and which promotes a dominionist/fascist agenda.

On the other hand, when Obama's church and former pastor are examined more closely, they don't really look all that bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 11:25 PM

Twisting the words to make a dubious point. That is the THO.
Hillary's rhetoric is spinning to such a high level of anti-Democratic Party BS. That GOP propaganda vehicles are her news outlet of choice. She recently went on Fox to slam Obama on Michigan, because any responsible outlet would point out that before the primaries, she said Michigan would not count.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 10:55 PM

Gentle Follower:

Her reasoned stance was not what was being referred to as the THO.

If you haven't discovered this for yourself, all the clips which were used to paint Wright as a demon were grossly distorted by taking small heated phrases out of context. Knowing this, and capitalizing on it, are (among other little tricks) what is being referred to as the THO.

I notice she has tried to resurrect the whole issue, completely ignoring the vindication of Wright that has appeared in several places.

Far more important than all this chaff is the difference in leadership demonstrated by her and Obama.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,A Supporter
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 10:38 PM

Please. Hillary gave a mindful (and accurate, in my opinion) interpretation of Obama's choice to participate in a spiritual community touting the values which his (now retired) pastor seems to have. How can anyone argue that we DO NOT choose the groups to which we belong? Family, as she states, can be quite another matter. Anyone who considers this reasonable stance to be a 'Tanya Harding Option' seems at best to be blinded by rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 09:43 PM

Are you being underhanded and passive-aggressive on purpose? Or just unawares, so to speak?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 09:39 PM

Did I say anything about Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 09:31 PM

You can't be serious???

Even if Obama were Muslim, which he obviously isn't, one does not spend a very large part of the day bowing to Mecca.

Furthermore, doing so did not prevent the Muslims from at one time conquering a very large portion of the ancient world in a most effective manner, did it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 09:31 PM

Rig:

You have one slimy sense of humor. Mebbe best you sort out who your friends are in the world a bit.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 09:14 PM

Of course, if the president has been out bowing to Mecca all day, it might be hard to shake him awake.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 09:12 PM

Guest, Guest,

Quit yer yapping and go do something.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 08:58 PM

Exactly, McG... It ain't gonna happen so I want someone with a cool head...

McClinton and McCain are twiddle-de-twiddle-dum... Both will over-react to being awkened at 3:00 in the morning, that is, of course, if you can even get McCain awake, which is doubtful...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 08:34 PM

"I certainly want someone who is cool and ain't gonna go call for instant retaliation... Okay, if we have knowledge that the Russians have launched nuclear warheads that is a different story."

I suppose it's drifting to ask, and it's not going to happen - but why on Earth? Once "Mutual Assured Destruction" deterance had broken down it'd be too late for retaliation to do anything other than make things even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 07:50 PM

Just had to step in there and point that out, didja? Feeling helpful, I guess. Good thing you didn't leave us in the dark.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 07:48 PM

Ummmmmmm, let's see here, Rigs???

***Obama the Muslim

***Obama won't salute flag

***Obama won't wear flag pin

***Obama isn't presidential like John McCain

***Obama makes "one speech" and therefore think's he's qualified to be president

***Obama is living in a dream world

***Obama will blow the 3:00 am phone call

***Obama has a loonie minister

***Obama will bomb our allies

Blah, blah, blah...

Ain't like Obama has gotten much of a break from anyone here, Rigs... Not the media, not McClinton and not McWar...

What anti-Obama folks seem to want to see is him crack... But when Clinton or McCain would blow a fuse he stays cool...

Who do you want to answer the phone... I ceratinly want someone who is cool and ain't gonna go call for instant retaliation... Okay, if we have knowledge that the Russians have launched nuclear warheads that is a different story but that ain't gonna happen...

Who I don't want answering the phone is a hot head and both McClinton and McWar are just that...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 07:41 PM

...and round and round and round and round and round and round...

lotta heat no light threads, all say same by same ole same ole warriors

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 06:56 PM

Consider what it would take for Senator Clinton to win.

For starters, she would have to pull ahead in the popular vote, to balance her second-place spot in number of states won and in pledged delegates. As Bill Clinton put it on March 17: ÒIf Senator Obama wins the popular vote then the choice will be easier. But if Hillary wins the popular vote but canÕt quite catch up with the delegate votes, then you have to just ask yourself which is more important and who is more likely to win in November.Ó

Even Mr. Clinton seemed to concede the nomination to Mr. Obama unless Mrs. Clinton wins the popular vote; without that, she doesnÕt even have an argument. Unfortunately for the Clintons, almost nobody who has done the math thinks that she can win the popular vote without re-votes in Florida and Michigan.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 05:42 PM

I promise you, Rig, that Obama's camp has been the subject of just as many weirdly slanted, warped-context stories. I didn't see the one you mention, but there is something about newspaper writers, I guess -- they can't keep it straight and reflect the simple reality of something.

Anyway, despite your terrible taste in candidates, you are not alone in this complaint. :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 05:40 PM

It doesn't matter what national Polls say. Most of the country has had its say.

State polls among Democrats in North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Oregon and Indiana matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 04:31 PM

This is exactly what's been happening to Hillary through the entire election season: NBC leads with an article with the headline of:
   

       "Clinton takes hit in new poll on White House race"


                     Then they go on to announce that Hillary's negative poll numbers are higher than Obama's, and then they conclude with the following statement:
                     
    "NBC said its pollsters oversampled African-Americans to get a more reliable cross tabulation on questions regarding Obama's speech on race."

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 01:05 PM

grandiose, mendacious and mean-spirited

THis describes her campaign -- although proabbly not her as a person -- in a nutshell.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 12:56 PM

Talk about scorched earth. The only way the Clintons don't come out of this without destroying their reputation and standing in the party is to go all the way to the White House.

And of course, there is the media, pretending the race is close for ratings.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Genie
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 11:29 AM

Riginslinger quoted me ["Now, as for Hillary, I'd say what she's trying to do to Obama and to the Democratic party's chances in 2008, while legal, is much farther reaching 'crime.'"] and retorted:
"It's funny when Obama supporters blame Hillary for simply running for office. It's time for Obama to step down."

The "crime" I'm referring to is not that Hillary is continuing in the race.   Heck, if she took the higher - and smarter - ground, she could be helping herself, the Democratic party, and the nation by keeping key issues in the news. She could help remind the public of why it's so important that the Dems take the White House and get rid of the obstructionist Repubs in the Senate who filibuster good legislation that's supported by a bipartisan majority.

But, noooo, she and Bill keep taking potshots at Obama while telling people - or at least strongly insinuating - she thinks they should vote for McCain if she does not win the Democratic nomination. She's jumped on the bandwagon of the media corporatocracy in distorting the reality of Rev. Jeremiah Wright's messages and of what Obama's relationship with that church implies about Obama's own views and policies. She tries to paint Barack as some neophyte with too little political experience to be Commander-In-Chief, when a quick review of history shows that some less experienced Presidents (e.g., Lincoln) have been better than some with far more experience (e.g., Nixon, Bush 41).

Hillary gave the McCain campaign one of their most powerful sound bites to use against Obama in the post-convention race: "I bring a lifetime of experience. John McCain has a lifetime of experience. [Obama] has a speech he gave in 2002."   WTF!!??
That's grandiose, mendacious and mean-spirited and a betrayal of the Democratic Party's goals. (How can you count all sorts of non-office-holding "experience" for yourself and the other party's candidate and DIScount someone else's entire life experience, including experience as a legislator?)

Bill Clinton has also worked to paint Barack Obama as "the black candidate," instead of recognizing the much broader appeal of this man who, both by ancestry and by rearing, is not only bi-racial but a citizen of the wider world. Yet more ammunition aimed at the Democratic team.

Hillary seems to have adopted a scorched-earth stategy re the nomination.   Does she really hope that if she's not the nominee, Grandpa McCain will win and she can have a shot at 2012?   It sure seems that way.

Staying in the race is fine. I wish John Edwards had stayed in till at least Super Tuesday. I wish Dennis Kucinich had been able to stay in longer and be in on the debates, to keep important issues the media's attention.    But Democrats need to stop the circular firing squad, and right now Clinton (abetted by the other Clinton) is the one taking the most and the most damaging shots in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 10:26 AM

Or Nader.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 10:21 AM

I expect that last 6% will be voting for McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 09:27 AM

An interesting poll (Rasmussen) I saw today found that

'Twenty-two percent (22%) of Democratic voters nationwide say that Hillary Clinton should drop out of the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination. However, the latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that an identical number—22%--say that Barack Obama should drop out. '

Even more interestingly, Republicans are more eager to see Clinton drop out rather than Obama. Forty-one percent (41%) of GOP voters say the former First Lady should withdraw while just 24% say the same about the Senator from Illinois.

But best of all!

'Six percent (6%) of Democrats would like both Clinton and Obama to drop out of the race.' :)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 09:25 AM

That's a helluva conceit, Rig. Given his numbers and that he is the only Dem with a clear path to the nomination, short of perverting the whole representation of the delegates, how do you figure it?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 09:05 AM

...lol, rigs...

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 08:01 AM

"Now, as for Hillary, I'd say what she's trying to do to Obama and to the Democratic party's chances in 2008, while legal, is much farther reaching 'crime.'"

                   It's funny when Obama supporters blame Hillary for simply running for office. It's time for Obama to step down.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 01:18 AM

She's lost all her gains already.

Obama campaigning against McCain. As he should.

poll numbers

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 12:52 AM

If you can vote for Hillary after hearing this jackass you deserve her.

Jamie Rubin

Talk about desperation. He was rude. He was pushy he was aggressive. He blamed everything that the press was doing on Obama. Did he answer a single question? Do you really want 8 years of an administration of people like this?

We can take this kind of bullshit out of the discourse! Yes We can!

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 12:14 AM

More insight on the race.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23799467#23819783

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Genie
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 12:09 AM

Being from Tonya's home town, I gotta set the record straight a bit.

First, it's "Tonya," not "Tanya."
Second, Nancy Kerrigan was not kneecapped.
(If she had been, she wouldn't have been walking so good, much less back in Olympic competition, a few weeks later.)
Third, Tonya was never clearly tied to planning the crime itself. She pled guilty to "hindering the prosecution" of her ex-husband, Jeff Gillooley, and his co-thugs. I.e., she tried to help cover up Jeff's actions, as she was still romantically involved with him. (Hey, there's a plot for a folk song, eh?)

What Shane Stant on and the other guys did to Nancy (whacking her above the knee with a wooden stick) was despicable, and they rightly did time for it. And Tonya was at the very least a wimp suffering from misplaced loyalties, not to mention an idiot where it came to protecting her own skating career. But I get tired of the story being so distorted as its legend grows. :)

Now, as for Hillary, I'd say what she's trying to do to Obama and to the Democratic party's chances in 2008, while legal, is much farther reaching 'crime.'

G

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 12:06 AM

Sounds like The Family is one of the groups Chris Hedges is talking about in this article...

The Christian Right And The Rise Of American Fascism

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 12:03 AM

The only point I'm trying to make is, it's most important to prevent a Republican from winning the White House in the fall. We've eliminated the best of the Democratic candidates through the caucus process. Hillary is the last hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 12:00 AM

Jack:

Great clip. Keith gets better and better.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 11:43 PM

This about sums up this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 11:15 PM

Riginslinger

You've had a chance to see or read Obama's speech. Show us something comparable from Hillary. Show us something that isn't platitudes or plain old resume padding and BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 11:13 PM

They believe that, in mass societies, it's only the elites who matter, the political leaders who can build God's "dominion" on earth. Insofar as The Family has a consistent philosophy, it's all about power - cultivating it, building it and networking it together into ever-stronger units, or "cells."

Heh. Why does this not surprise me?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 11:10 PM

Rig--

So you don't see her appeals to prejudice. Not surprising. There's none so blind.....

After all, you don't seem to think much of either black or brown skin--who knows why.

Or perhaps you think appealing to prejudice is the adult way. That would say a lot about you. But not actually so surprising, considering your choice of news sources. Maybe you honestly can't tell the difference between news and smears, having been CEO of Smears R Us so long.

It was just fine to say Barack HUSSEIN Obama over and over, to point out that Hispanics don't vote for blacks, to typecast Obama as the "black candidate" right after his SC win, etc. Right?

And Ted Kennedy backing Obama was in fact the "ultimate betrayal"--at least until Judas Richardson. Right?

Not that I expect you to even begin to answer these. After all, the answers would be awkward for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 11:09 PM

I guess I confused "adult" with the concept of "people who are capable of thinking for themselves."

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 11:06 PM

I think ya missed the concept of the word "adult", there, Rig.

On "The Family", this from the Huffington Post which also proides links to the referenced papers:

""You don't choose your family, but you choose what church you want to attend." said Hillary Clinton, to reporters and editors of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review on Tuesday the 25th.

This is an interesting choice of words, since -- while we mostly hear about her Methodist upbringing -- Hillary Clinton has chosen to associate herself with The Family (also known as the Fellowship), a very conservative, fundamentalist organization started by Abraham Vereide...

"...an immigrant preacher who in 1935 organized a small group of businessmen sympathetic to European fascism, fusing the Far Right with his own polite but authoritarian faith. From that core, Vereide built an international network of fundamentalists who spoke the language of establishment power, a "family" that thrives to this day. In public, they host prayer breakfasts; in private they preach a gospel of "biblical capitalism," military might, and American empire. Citing Hitler, Lenin, and Mao, Doug Coe, the Family's current leader, declares, "We work with power where we can, build new power where we can't."

This quote is taken from the book on The Family by the same name which will be published in May... a book which claims to

"...dramatically challenge conventional wisdom about American fundamentalism, revealing its crucial role in the unraveling of the New Deal, the waging of the Cold War, and the no-holds-barred economics of globalization. The question Sharlet believes we must ask is not "What do fundamentalists want?" but "What have they already done?"

A long article was written about Hillary Clinton's participation in this organization last September in Mother Jones, and The Family, itself, was the subject of an extensive article in Harper's in March of 2003. And on March 21st, The Nation published an article on Hillary and The Family by Barbara Ehrenreich that was published on The Huffington Post and CBS News' web site.

The Family avoids the word Christian but worships Jesus, though not the Jesus who promised the earth to the "meek." They believe that, in mass societies, it's only the elites who matter, the political leaders who can build God's "dominion" on earth. Insofar as The Family has a consistent philosophy, it's all about power - cultivating it, building it and networking it together into ever-stronger units, or "cells."
...wrote Ms.Ehrenreich."

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 10:59 PM

"Jack got it right. A lot of voters are happy about being treated as adults--for once."

             Thankfully, Hillary does that.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 10:56 PM

Jack got it right. A lot of voters are happy about being treated as adults--for once.


And who's doing it? Hillary? Not likely. Try appealing to any prejudice she thinks might get her the nomination.   Hispanics--they don't vote for blacks--says her spokesman--early in the campaign. Wright said "God damn America"--that establishes beyond doubt that he's bent on the destruction of the US--never mind that he was a Marine, served with honor, and that his sermon is solidly in the tradition of Jeremiah's railing against Judah---which I pointed out on 20 March. And that somehow--despite the 20 year anti-white, anti-America record he is assumed to have by Faux News, Hannity, and anybody else who lives by sound-byte, ---- he was considered just fine to have at the White House during the bleak Monica days--when many religious figures were condemning Bill.

As I read recently:   "Yes, Hillary, we all remember when you threw Rev. Wright out of the White House when he came to offer prayers of support during Monica/ Impeachment days. We have the video of you telling him how you wanted nothing to do with his hateful Black Power, anti-white, anti-American ravings. We don't? It must be on the same tape with the Bosnian snipers firing over your goldilocks".

And by the way, consider what her own pastor--insofar as the Clintons had a church in the 1990s-- Foundry Church-- says about Wright. "Dr. Wright, a member of an integrated denomination, has been an agent of racial reconciliation while proclaiming perceptions and truths uncomfortable for some white people to hear": (Dean Snyder, 19 March 2008).

But does this come out in Hillary's statement? No. After a week, she says, in response to a question, that she would have left Wright's church after Wright's statement. Would she also leave Foundry, since, according to her logic, Foundry's minister has shown tolerance for the destruction of the US?

Could this be angling for votes of people--say in Pennsylvania, to pick a totally theoretical example--who want an excuse not to vote for a black man? Nah, not a chance.

And, according to Barbara Ehrenreich in The Nation, Hillary herself has some skeletons in the closet on religion. "The Family", part of a secretive Capitol Hill group to which Hillary belonged to in her years in DC--a conservative Bible study and prayer circle, takes credit for some of Hillary's "rightward legislative tendencies, such as "religious freedom" for pharmacists who refuse to fill birth control prescriptions and police officers who refuse to guard abortion clinics."

I have no idea about this business of Hillary's attitude towards "religious freedom". But it might be interesting to check out. As well as the matter of her eager acceptance of contributions from a firm under lawsuit by over 100 women for sexual harassment. She's totally against sexual harassment--unless of course money for her campaign is in the offing.

But the contrast between that sort of question and "Barack HUSSEIN Obama" ad nauseam is stark. Hannity, etc. are a bit more crude, to say the least, than, say, the question of "religious freedom" and Hillary.

But it's fairly evident that Bobert is correct--Hillary does believe in the Tanya Harding option--otherwise known as the Goetterdaemmerung approach, Samson gambit, etc.

It's also instructive to note the contrast between Obama, who did not throw his pastor under the bus, though that might have been the smart political move--and the Clintons, who have littered the political landscape with people they no longer need.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 10:19 PM

Catty snidities really make you look large and wise, Riginslinger. Not.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:43 PM

Obama doesn't have to hold up the Chicago papers, he's got Tony Rezko to do that for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:35 PM

I'll bet Obama knows a couple Chicago papers he'd be glad to hold up.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:32 PM

sorry, but all you folks making predictions make me remember Truman holding up the paper saying "Dewey Wins!"

I hope you don't have lot of $$$$ riding on your theories.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:31 PM

I can't imagine anyone voting for anyone other than Obama after that speech. I know there will be lots who do, but I just can't quite imagine how.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:27 PM

No, they won't, M Tedster....

Yeah, I can appreciate the fact the you like Clinton...

Can you appreciate that Obama supporters are feeling like the Clinton's are going out of their way to trash Obama???

Ain't nuthing too funny about it...

Just different perspectives of the divide...

Glad you will vot for Obama... Ain' too many of us Obama supporters who will vote for Hillary...

If she had run a clean campaign??? Maybe... But not after this... The Clintons have insured that either Obama or McCain will be the next prez... They sho nuff won't...

And you can take that to the bank...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:06 PM

You're pretty funny, Jack--you sound like you've seen way too much Fox News.

I'll support who ever wins the nomination, with great enthusiasm--and most people will have forgotten about this weeks debacle and moved on to the next and the next--we have a short memory--

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 08:33 PM

>>What kinda stategy is that, anyway?<<

Its "screw the party and get the nomination and lie about saying it when we get to McCain." strategy, I think.

That's pretty much what they are doing with Florida and Michigan and NAFTA.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 08:09 PM

That was my point in my "McCain/Clinton v. Obama/Richardson" thread, JtS... I mean, the Clinton's are going 'round saying how great McWar is??? What kinda stategy is that, anyway???

I would vote for Snively Whiplash before I'd vote for either Clinton...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 08:02 PM

Actually in a few cases, she and Bill have looked like they were competing with their old pal Joe Lieberman to be McCain's VP selection.

Why would she give up after any of those races? Her people are saying that even Obama's committed delegates are allowed to switch.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 08:00 PM

As I've said, I'm not an Obama supporter. But I liked the speech. And I have to admit that all of this stupidity the Clinton camp are engaging in is making me think hard and long about voting for Obama when my state has its primary in May. If Hillary is nominated, I will probably write in Kucinich's name in the general election.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 07:55 PM

Well, if she doesn't win in PA, she probably won't go on, and that will end it. So I guess the rest of us have another 3 weeks of misery until then.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 07:49 PM

Wha speech did you hear, Rigs???

I mean, it's allready being com,pared to some of the greatest speeches ever???

But nevermind the speech for one minute...

Even after the speech tonight's NBC poll had both McCain and McClinton beat... And this ***after*** the Wright ambush??? Go figure???

Clinton, BTW came in a distant 3rd...

Clinton needs to get thru Pa, NC and Indiana and if she doesn't win them all, bow the heck out... She is like a McCain undercover operative in the Dem Party right now...

Screw Bill... I'm sorry that he is bored... If he had another girlfriend then all this shape up ion no time... He's a loose ends and forcing poor Hillary to forge forward so that he can relive his 8 years on Penn. Ave... There ain't no going back, Bill... Give Monika a call... Now...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 07:36 PM

At least most folks can probably agree on one thing. This protracted struggle is not helping the Democrats win back the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Art Thieme
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 07:08 PM

I wrote this verse back when it was news at the Olympics.   The tune is John Hardy.

Tanya Harding was a desperate little girl,
She carried a Lillehammer every day,
She hammered Nancy's knee up in old Detroit,
You ought to see Tanya Harding gettin' away,
You ought to see Tanya Harding gettin' away.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 07:07 PM

" I can't imagine anyone voting for Obama after that speech he delivered about Reverend Wright."

Gee, maybe YOU should apply for a job as Obama's speechwriter! I'll bet you'd have penned him a nice little bit of nastiness that would have lost him twice as much support.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 07:06 PM

That speech of Obama's certainly did not treat voters like adults, just the opposite. That's what he's done throughout the campaign. That's why the second or third time someone hears or sees him they start looking for an alternative.
            And that is Hillary's strength.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 06:59 PM

>>>I can't imagine anyone voting for Obama after that speech he delivered about Reverend Wright. It looks to me like Hillary is the only chance now.<<<

You are going to find that that Speech and Hillary's reaction will add at least five points to Obama's poll numbers.

A lot of voters like being treated as adults.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 06:52 PM

M Ted,

You are stupid to support Hillary. She has all but mathematically lost. DO THE NUMBERS!!!

To win she has to fuck over the party and kill its chance of winning.

You understand dirty politics about as much as you understand the health care system.

Hillary is using racism, praising McCain and lying down in bed with the people who accused her of murder and almost brought down her husband's presidency in a desperate attempt to up her chances of winning from one in a hundred to one in fifty. That is not dirty politics it is desperate politics. If you want Hillary putting a smily spinning BULLSHIT face on things like her "great wins" in Ohio and Texas that netted her four delegates. Then go vote for you. I will tell you that if she wins the nomination, I'll be supporting McCain. When he was behind and desperate. He showed his true character and calmly persevered. Hillary showed her true character by making lies of all she had said about running a clean campaign, about Michigan not counting about supporting her husband on NAFTA.

If you think that politics means "win at any cost" then good for you, and Hillary are made for each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 06:50 PM

As unelectable as she seems to Obama supporters, I can't imagine anyone voting for Obama after that speech he delivered about Reverend Wright. It looks to me like Hillary is the only chance now.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 06:47 PM

I meant to say "muck" instead of "much". Maybe it's ME that can't plan a fire drill! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 06:36 PM

Oh, Rigs, check it out...

Like mow amny Obama supporters would vote for the Clinton's afetr this campaign they are in midst of puttin' on... You won't need a clculator for the answer because it's, ahhhhh, none!!!

So exactly how is Hillary going to beat McCaain when she has thoughly pissed off half the party???

Obama, on the other hand, is not nearly as hated, yes hated, as the Clintons and if the Clintons are going to have any furure at all in politics after this stink-bomb they had better be ready to campaign to get their people to the polls for Obama... That is do-able... But Obama gettin' his people to vote for the Clintons is not... They will stay home or vote for Nader... And Hillary can take that to the bank... She is absolutely unelectable...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 06:31 PM

I have NO DOUBT that she is going to much up this campaign so much, and destroy Obama in the process, that McCain will win by default.

The democrats couldn't orginize a fire drill. Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 06:28 PM

It does bother one, though, when the media complains that she makes things up almost as much as Ronald Reagan did.

               And I'm her supporter, since Kucinich and Edwards were frozen out.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 06:15 PM

I assumed she was being jocular when she said it was too dangerous to send the president so they sent her. I don't think she was serious. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 06:04 PM

You and Amos are starting to creep me out, Jack--mostly because first you complain about how dirty politics is, then you reach down deep into the gutter and start tossing around the same invective that you despise Hannity and Rush for using.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 05:54 PM

Its the remembering the ones that weren't there at all that bothers me.
Its the being stupid enough to say all of these things when there is film showing otherwise.
She is saying that she is the one who has been tested under fire and she is ready to stand up to Republican attacks.

But she is now in the position of having CBS devastate her by saying "Isn't this the trip you were talking about?" and innocently showing the film.


Carol made a very interesting point to me, when this story first broke and Hillary was insulting her husband's manhood by saying that they were sending the First Lady to a place that was too dangerous for the President. They sent her daughter as well. Carol thought that they would never have sent Chelsey to a place too dangerous for Bill.

I wonder what kind of a mother would do that? What kind of a mother would say that they would do that? What kind of a mother would remember it that way?

The whole thing creeps me out. It's too dangerous for Bill but they send his wife, His daughter, Sheryl Crowe and Sinbad. Its not just a lie. Its a BAD lie. Its a stupid lie. I don't want a woman who thinks this way answering any three AM red phone phone calls.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 05:40 PM

Better to duck a sniper bullet that isn't there than not to duck and discover there is one.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 05:24 PM

OK

I'm not happy with Hillary. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 05:07 PM

Then I guess she doesn't really need to.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:59 PM

"Would that be anything like avoiding sniper fire?"


             Exactly the same, KB. Exactly the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:58 PM

*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:43 PM

Jack, don't be shy, tell us what you really think.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:25 PM

HEy Rig:

Obama's poll numbers aren't falling, pal.

They took a ding for a brief period there in response tot he slander and hate campaign from your friends at Fox. Remember that?

SOmehow, he mysteriously recovered; maybe because folks saw through the bullshit that was being peddled as serious intellectual fodder by and for the lizard-brained fascists in Hannity's corner.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:24 PM

She is a lot like Bush.
Pretending she is winning when she is beat.
Staying away from substance while her minions attack.
Panicking when she is behind and switching to desperation measures.
Putting her own short term political gains ahead of the Country's
The Story about Kosovo reminds me of Bush talking about his "service" in the Texas ANG and his little "Mission Accomplished" Junket.

Riginslinger,

She is the cause of Obama's Poll numbers and hers are going down with them. She is like Sampson tearing down the roof of the temple. All the Democrats are getting crushed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:17 PM

Of course she's had to dance around a bit to avoid being struck by Obama's falling poll numbers, but...

Would that be anything like avoiding sniper fire?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:05 PM

Actually, I think Hillary is doing what she needs to do to prevent McCain from becoming president.
                Of course she's had to dance around a bit to avoid being struck by Obama's falling poll numbers, but...

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:56 PM

Well...I guess I will just have to disagree with the extremity of the view. I have been disappointed with Hillary's positions and general approach to the campaign recently, but to compare ANYONE to Bush seems like painting with a pretty broad brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:36 PM

That does sound a bit scum-like, actually, Jack...



A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:28 PM

Its true she is not really scum. She is just desperate and cowardly and lacking in integrity and willing to destroy the democratic party in exchange for a one in one hundred chance of getting the nomination.

He has failed the commander in chief test. She is no better a leader than George W. Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM

A little worried!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:02 PM

scum? Gee...what names have you reserved for Bush, or Nixon....and what was 'ol Bill?

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 01:56 PM

An unnamed Democratic party official came up with the idea of the "Tonya Harding option." Keith Olbermann's countdown guest went one step further.

Human growth hormone in the urine sample option

Keith is cool.
Hillary is scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 01:52 PM

hmmm...she IS seeming a little worried and making some strategic mistakes...but c'mon, nothing that is really dirty & underhanded.

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 01:48 PM

"If you can't win the gold, kneecap your opponent" is the summary of the Tanya Harding option. Not unlike Hillary at some points.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 01:40 PM

Context? I didn't hear the piece, but it wouldn't surprise me much.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 01:34 PM

I thought they were just saying that was about the 'only' option she had left, not that anything she's done is in that class.

Subject: BS: Hillary Adopts Tanya Harding Option???
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 12:06 PM

Interesting MSNBC comparision of Hillary's tactics to those of Tayna Harding when she had someone try to bust the knee of an opponent...

Hmmmmmmmm??? Well, yeah, I can honestly say that's about accurate...

B~