BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 10:23 AM

"You said that they (the ACORN workers) were GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY."

Point it out please.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 06:24 PM

Whatever the truth is, half of the people are not going to believe it. That's probably the real tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Genie
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 03:01 PM

BradBlog.com - summary of Brown's investigation findings, plus links to the unedited videos themselves

Key points:
The videos were severely edited and spliced so as to misrepresent what actually happened. "The Brooklyn D.A.'s office was quoted as describing them as a 'heavily edited splice job' when his report was released several weeks ago."


"Of the four ACORN employees O'Keefe and Giles met with in three different California cities, none "committed, solicited or conspired to commit any criminal acts," says Brown in his report. "There is no evidence that any of the ACORN employees had the intent to aid and abet such criminal conduct or agreed to join in [O'Keefe and Giles purported] illegal conduct."

"ACORN did not receive billions in federal funds and did not control elections.
In fact, ACORN had received an average of just $3.5 million in federal tax dollars over each of the last 15 years. "

"No evidence that any vote was ever cast illegally, in any election, following an improper registration by an ACORN worker. In most cases, such improper registrations were discovered by ACORN themselves and reported to authorities."


--
Some of ACORN's hundreds of workers may have acted unwisely or "inappropriately" at times (of course that never happens in private business or any other large organization), but our "mainstream media" have done a horribly sloppy (or deliberately partisan?) job of investigative journalism and fair reporting.

Meanwhile, true election fraud, where thousands of voters have been improperly disenfranchised or otherwise blocked from voting (e.g., having to stand in line for hours to vote; being deliberately directed to the wrong polling places) or where voting machines have "flipped votes," etc. - there's hardly a mention of that in the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 03:28 AM

The unedited tape (raw footage) speaks for itself. Jerry Brown released the raw footage. With the release of the raw footage, we don't have to take anyone's word for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 12:35 PM

All Jerry Brown did was to determine that no crimes were committed. I didn't think anyone ever thought there were crimes committed.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 11:58 AM

Fair enough. however, MSNBC is hardly unbiased 'reporting' either, so I wouldn't be too quick to cite them as a source, either!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 06:08 AM

I can't find any mention of that, GfS, except in the Free Republic website, so I think I'll hold off on accepting that one until I see more evidence that you are right.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 02:18 AM

Oh CarolC, Congressman Cleaver said that NOBODY spit on him. (Heard it on the radio).

Just thought you might have wanted to know.......

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 10:15 PM

Bertha Lewis said many times that the tapes were phony. Nobody listened to her, but she did say it. The employees did tell her that the tapes had been falsified, and Bertha herself said that the tapes had been falsified, many, many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 10:08 PM

It doesn't matter whether or not Brown has a credibility problem. The hard evidence is there for any experts to examine. When the ACORN workers had been declared guilty by everyone on the right, no one had seen the raw footage. The raw footage is now available. That's the difference, and that's why we don't have to take Jerry Brown's word for anything. And that's why we know the ACORN workers were framed.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 10:05 PM

I said we never saw the guy dressed as a pimp while he was in the room with the ACORN workers. I said that the we never saw him actually talking in the video and we didn't see most of what was said by the "prostitute", so we had no way of knowing that they said what we were told they said while they were in the room with the ACORN workers. I said that unless we saw them talking in the room with the ACORN workers, and could see for ourselves that they were saying what we were hearing, and saw how the guy was dressed in the room with the ACORN workers, there was no reason to believe the accusations that were being made against ACORN.

You said that they (the ACORN workers) were GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY.

I was right, and you were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 09:44 PM

Think about it, D. If the employee's words had been changed, wouldn't they have told Bertha that. And if they told her, why didn't she believe them. The original journalists have a lot more credibility than either Brown or this Rachel person.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 07:09 PM

"...pointing the finger at the journalists ..."

JOURNALISTS?? tsk...

Bertha did not HAVE the original tapes, but I saw her explaining what had happened about several of the issues and accusations.... and will YOU please document which employees were fired, and for what reasons and in what circumstances?

" The phony tape scenario seems not to have made the scene until it was handy for other political reasons."

You don't think they gave up the incriminating tapes easily, do you? Jerry Brown had to force the issue to get them. What credibility issue can possibly change what the unedited tapes showed? Perhaps you are suggesting that being a Democrat is an issue....

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 06:59 PM

And she is pointing the finger at the journalists who made the videos, so what's the difference. If the tapes hadn't been accurate, why did Bertha Lewis run around and fire the low level employees at the various sites instead of making the case that the tapes were phony.
            The phony tape scenario seems not to have made the scene until it was handy for other political reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Neil D
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 06:39 PM

No, but you do. You might disagree with Ms. Maddow's politics and have every right to do so, however, accusing her of doctoring evidence is not only lacking in credibility, it is libel.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 05:18 PM

"The Attorney General of California examined the raw video..."


               Isn't the Attorney General of California Jerry Brown? Doesn't he have a little bit of a credibility problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 04:54 PM

*grin*.. The truth is the truth, no matter how you criticize the technique of those telling the truth. ACORN was framed, and most of the shrill conservatives WANTED to believe ACORN was guilty of... something... so they propagated **untruths**, whether they were aware they were lying or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 03:32 PM

"You were wrong about the accusations made against ACORN"

You were the one saying the video people were guilty until proven innocent and Acorn was innocent until proven guilty.

You still cannot say who is wrong and you do not mention any particular accusations.

You topically lump several things into one as proof of something.

Now you shrilly chant wrong wrong wrong like a little kid taunting and bullying somebody.

Seeing that the thread was about multiple accusations about Acorn other than the videos with several people making the accusations. it is rather immature to shriek "you were wrong I was right" four times in a row as it it carries more weight the more it is repeated.

Why not just shriek it 1000 times without saying who was wrong about what, then there will be no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 03:23 PM

Riginslinger, it's possible to use technology to detect edits. The raw video can easily be proven to be raw video, while edited video can easily be proven to be edited. The Attorney General of California examined the raw video, issued a statement based on that video, and then released the video to the public. Any expert can examine that video to determine whether or not it has been doctored.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 02:04 PM

Lies?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 02:02 PM

Riggo, that is crap! She 'doctored up' nothing...she reported on what the information showed. Various investigations have gotten access to the raw videos and shown clearly that places like Faux News 'doctored' the stuff the make the claims in the first place!
You cannot simply 'assert' such blatant lies and get away with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 01:49 PM

Certainly we can't be expected to believe evidence doctored up by Rachel Maddow.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 01:23 PM

You were wrong about the accusations made against ACORN based on the videos. You were wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong about that, and I was entirely right.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Alice
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 01:09 PM

I started this thread in 2008, and I am still saying "Spread the Truth about ACORN".

- Alice

---------------------------------------------------

04/07/2010 05:11 PM
Unedited ACORN Videos Tell a Vastly Different Story
        

'In the video that helped destroy the community activist group ACORN, an employee is shown supposedly helping a pimp and his hooker girlfriend set up a child prostitution and human smuggling ring. As it turns out, the truth was edited out.

As shown on the Rachel Maddow show, the unedited video includes the ACORN employee calling the police as soon as James O´Keefe and Hannah Giles, playing the pimp and prostitute, left the office. Other video was radically edited to change its meaning.

For example, an ACORN employee is heard telling Giles "don´t give up" as Giles, the "prostitute," says she wants to start a prostitution ring. Unedited, the video shows the employee was responding to Giles saying she wanted to finance a house.'

Source: www.mediaite.com        
WebReporter: Ben_Reilly

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 01:06 PM

Right about what?

Who is wrong?

It does disprove some claims made about Acorn.

Have any of the claims made by Acorn been disproved?

Does it mean Acorn did not throw it's own dues paying members under the bus in return for a million dollar bailout from a fat cat developer?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 12:39 PM

I was right, you were wrong. I was right, you were wrong. I was right, you were wrong. I was right, you were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 01:52 AM

Isn't ACORN nuts???

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 04:11 PM

Is the embezzling brother working for SEIU now, along with the other?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 03:13 PM

Where is my endorsement?

You endorse Acorn who rolled it's own members under da bus for money from a rich, fat cat developer.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:07 PM

We're talking about American political operatives here. If you found anything other than lies and nonesense on either side I'd be astounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 05:47 PM

Sure, your endorsement of the faked videos that were supposed to be of a couple posing as a pimp and a prostitute as the truth. That's total lies and nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 05:09 PM

Got any examples of the lies and nonsense?

George Bush was never prosecuted for anything so everything he did was legal according to your reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 09:15 PM

Anyway, the statute has run; it's time to go after SEIU.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:34 PM

Has anyone been prosecuted for covering up the embezzlement?

For an example of the lies and nonsense one only has to read most of the things you've posted on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 11:36 AM

So it is legal to cover up an embezzlement?

"either lies or nonsense" Care to give an example?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 10:56 AM

Rachel compares ACORN to other government contractors.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:13 AM

The truth has been spread about ACORN. Now it's time to go after SEIU.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 03:34 AM

Good question, Songbob, almost all of the stuff he posts on this subject is either lies or nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 03:32 AM

One person at ACORN defrauded the organization by embezzling money from it. That's not at all the same thing as the organization itself doing things that are illegal. That's why the organization didn't get prosecuted for the embezzlement.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:10 AM

As you read on, you'll find evidence that a Times reporter knew of (and was alarmed by) a $1.5 million loan/grant that Brooklyn-based FCR gave last August to ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, which had suffered severe cash flow difficulties in the wake of an embezzlement scandal.

This is incredible, reporter Stephanie Strom wrote after learning that the deal was allegedly approved without ACORN board's assent, adding that an explanation given to her doesn't hold water.

In doing so, FCR has helped bail out an organization reeling from the revelations that not only did the brother of ACORN's founder embezzle nearly $1 million in 2000 but also, as the Times reported 9/10/08, that the news was concealed by senior executives until a whistle-blower told a foundation leader about it in May.

Also, as the Times reported 10/22/08, ACORN's budget has been suffering, as it apparently owes taxes to federal and state authorities while foundations that previously supported the organization have backed off. Meanwhile, two board members, both members of a committee established to lead ACORN through its turmoil, have sued the organization, charging that ACORN was destroying financial documents and covering up improper expenditures.

The Times chose not to report on that crucial loan. But that FCR-ACORN relationship remains worthy of sunlight, given the crucial partnership between FCR and ACORN's New York affiliate in the enormously controversial Atlantic Yards project in Brooklyn.

ACORN on 5/17/05 signed a Housing Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) that promised 2250 units of affordable housing in the project, which Lewis considered a huge victory. In exchange, ACORN agreed to publicly back the project--and has continued to do so, despite many reasons to doubt FCR's promises.

How frequently does a controversial real estate developer, who does its work regionally, bail out a struggling national activist organization, one which saw contributions decline and faced a major tax bill--after the revelation that Dale Rathke, the brother of longtime chief organizer Wade Rathke, embezzled nearly $1 million? More here

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Songbob
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:40 PM

A federal judge has ruled that the government has to pay ACORN what they should have been paid prior to Congress' action in stripping them of their grants and contracts. It seems that singling out one organization for punitive action without a court conviction is a "bill of attainder," which is verboten by the Constitution.

Interesting, eh?

And I don't understand the context of Sawzaw's post just above mine. What is he going on about now?

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:18 PM

The tent ceremony seemed to symbolize all that was bizarre about the project, especially as the political gyrations: Not one local legislator was present, as the city was bypassed entirely by his process, as were the state reps, due to Ratner's being shielded behind an inscrutable state agency, the Empire State Development Corporation (it proved impossible to sue it).

Or his racial manipulation: Having paid millions for support from some black leaders, he then had to hide the most prominent one, Bertha Lewis, founder and national leader of ACORN (who was contractually obliged to publicly support Atlantic Yards), replacing her on the dais with the Rev. Al Sharpton, whose group also was the target of Ratner largesse.

While Forest City provided lobster sliders for his guests, Ratner could hear the noisy protesters at the fences. But he did not worry about them entering. The tent was surrounded by layers of concrete Jersey barriers, extra high cyclone fences, and dozens and dozens of police. So much for a grand gesture of bringing something the public is supposed to treasure. Just as the process was calculated to avoid public input, so was the ceremony. More Here

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:10 PM

A whistle-blower forced Acorn to disclose the embezzlement, which involved the brother of the organization’s founder, Wade Rathke.

The brother, Dale Rathke, embezzled nearly $1 million from Acorn and affiliated charitable organizations in 1999 and 2000, Acorn officials said, but a small group of executives decided to keep the information from almost all of the group’s board members and not to alert law enforcement.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 06:28 PM

pdq, there is no evidence that the ACORN organization were doing illegal things. If there was, they would be prosecuted for them.

DougR, all of the fraudulent registrations that their workers generated were flagged by the management as being potentially fraudulent, and were turned over to the authorities as such. So you are wrong about that. And not one of the fraudulent registrations resulted in anyone casting a fraudulent vote. The management of ACORN did not commit any election fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 06:06 PM

Carol C: and no doubt they registered a whole lot of folks that they shouldn't have too!

Bill D: Pull your shorts out of the crack, I was just expressing an opinion (but I'll bet I'm right!)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 02:48 PM

"...National Open Ballot Project advisory board which includes Bertha Lewis, who is the CEO of ACORN, a co-chair of the Working Families Party, an initial director of the Working Families Organization and a former treasurer of the Progressive America Fund. Also on the advisory board is Melissa Mark-Viverito, a former Service Employees International Union (SEIU)organizer who had WFP and ACORN support in her 2005 election and 2009 re-election bids to the New York City Council."

ACORN is a monsterous group of approximately 300 smaller groups with interlocking directorates. The name ACORN was banned from receiveng federal monies by parts of the federal government including the Census Bureau. They were banned because their actions were corrupt, even criminal.

The ending of the name ACORN is a huge rope-a-dope. Meaningless, because the money will flow to the same people for the same business, just through different organizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 02:28 PM

If they do, count on the Republicans trying to shut them down. Because one of the good things ACORN did was register a lot of perfectly legitimate voters in areas where people tend to vote Democrat, and the agenda of the Republicans is to disenfranchise voters who might vote against Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM

Acorn did some good things but unfortunately there was an atmosphere of being above the law as exemplified in the Acorn workers advice "Don't get caught, 'cause it is against the law."

Hopefully an organization or better yet a lot of smaller organizations who won't get the big head, will replace them and continue the good things.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:39 PM

This is an organization that needed to go, now it's time to get rid of SEIU.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:15 PM

That's the thing about the Faux conservatives. No policy solutions just smears and lies. And any Republican't is ready and willing to start the lies. The only thing grass roots about the self styled "conservatives" of this country is their lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:58 PM

And you know this HOW, Doug?

Unless you DO have evidence, that's the kind of rumor/remark that starts problems in the first place.

Many, many LIES....that's **LIES**....have been told about Acorn in the last year, and the few true items were not serious enough to cause this. This is a case of 'guilt by innuendo'.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:52 PM

ACORN is not going out of business. It's just going through a name change in hopes of again being able to rip off money from the government.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 03:15 PM

It's small wonder considering how complicit the news media has been in propagating the lies about ACORN that caused the withdrawal of their funding. The young woman in the videos even has admitted that the guy was not posing as a pimp in the ACORN offices. They were posing as a woman who was trying to escape an abusive relationship and her friend who was trying to help her. The fiction about the pimp and prostitute was added later, when they were not in the ACORN offices.

I hope the guy who made those videos goes to jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:40 AM

ACORN's been succesfully Swiftboated. Big surprise.

Not sure that this should surprise anyone- just because yanking their funding is unconstitutional and the video in question was a patched-together fraud and a lie?

That's what Rove & the BuShites do- and are proud of.

God Help America

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:28 AM

"Honesty won't get you the house."

ACORN disbanding because of money woes, scandal

AP CHICAGO   The once mighty community activist group ACORN announced Monday it is folding amid falling revenues six months after video footage emerged showing some of its workers giving tax tips to conservative activists posing as a pimp and prostitute.

"It's really declining revenue in the face of a series of attacks from partisan operatives and right-wing activists that have taken away our ability to raise the resources we need," ACORN spokesman Kevin Whelan said.

Several of its largest affiliates, including ACORN New York and ACORN California, broke away this year and changed their names in a bid to ditch the tarnished image of their parent organization and restore revenue that ran dry in the wake of the video scandal.

ACORN's financial situation and reputation went into free fall within days of the videos' release in September. Congress reacted by yanking ACORN's federal funding, private donors held back cash and scores of ACORN offices closed.

Earlier this month, a U.S. judge reiterated an earlier ruling that the federal law blacklisting ACORN and groups allied with it was unconstitutional because it singled them out. But that didn't mean any money would be automatically be restored.

Bertha Lewis, the CEO of ACORN, which stands for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, alluded to financial hardships in a weekend statement as the group's board prepared to deliberate by phone.

"ACORN has faced a series of well-orchestrated, relentless, well-funded right wing attacks that are unprecedented since the McCarthy era," she said. "The videos were a manufactured, sensational story that led to rush to judgment and an unconstitutional act by Congress."

ACORN's board decided to close remaining state affiliates and field offices by April 1 because of falling revenues, with some national operations will continue operating for at least several weeks before shutting for good, Whelan said Monday.

For years, ACORN could draw on 400,000 members to lobby for liberal causes, such as raising the minimum wage or adopting universal health care. ACORN was arguably most successful at registering hundreds of thousands of low-income voters, though that mission was dogged by fraud allegations, including that some workers submitted forms signed by 'Mickey Mouse' or other cartoon characters.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 11:25 PM

Yes, it looks like he's totally become honest!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 10:24 PM

"I'm not just reporting on something, I'm becoming something I'm reporting on," said O'Keefe.

Looks like he was definitely right about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 10:17 PM

Well Well Well.

Looks like O'Keefe might be a crook after all. He has definitely done overdid it this time:

CBS January 26, 2010

James O'Keefe, ACORN Foe, Arrested for New Stunt

James O'Keefe was riding high last year when he released a series of videos showing employees of community-organizing group ACORN offering advice to O'Keefe and a friend that seemed to endorse trafficking in children, among other illegal activities.

The undercover videos made O'Keefe a star in conservative circles and presumably helped him muster the courage for another high profile stunt – though this time, it seems, things went badly for the 25-year-old.

O'Keefe and three others – including the son of an acting U.S. Attorney, are accused of trying to manipulate the phones in Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu's office in New Orleans. According to an release from the United States Attorney's Office, witnesses say O'Keefe was in Landrieu's office when two co-conspirators came in "dressed in blue denim pants, a blue work shirt, a light green fluorescent vest, a tool belt and a construction-style hard hat" and pretended to be there to repair the phones. (Here's the affidavit.)

O'Keefe allegedly filmed the men handling the main reception-area phone in the senator's office with a cell-phone camera. The faux-repairmen, who are believed to have been attempting to tap the phones, then asked for access to the telephone closet to work on the main telephone system; asked for identification after being directed there, they said they had left their credentials in their vehicle.

The four men – O'Keefe, the two fake telephone repairman, and another alleged co-conspirator – are now "charged in a criminal complaint with entering federal property under false pretenses for the purpose of committing a felony, announced the United States Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of Louisiana." They could face up to ten years in prison and a fine of $250,000.

The men had an initial appearance this afternoon in court, where they were released on a $10,000 UN-secured bond. A preliminary hearing has been set for February 12th, though that will be cancelled if an indictment is filed before then. Landrieu's office declined comment, citing the ongoing investigation.

O'Keefe, a former Rutgers University student, has a history of stunts that predates his ACORN hidden-camera work: According to the Star-Ledger, he "mounted a satirical campaign to ban Lucky Charms cereal from campus dining halls on the premise the breakfast fare was offensive to Irish-Americans" as a student.

He told the newspaper the tone of his videos, which include an investigation of Planned Parenthood, is unique.

"I'm not just reporting on something, I'm becoming something I'm reporting on," said O'Keefe.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:07 PM

It was reported in today's newspaper that ACORN had completed it's internal investigation of itself and found no criminal wrong doing.

Surprise, surprise, surprise.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 10:34 AM

Yeah ACORN sucks, IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:02 PM

Maybe you could summerize some of that, Sawz!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:44 PM

Moyer v ACORN transcript:

...is ACORN a membership organization? Yes. How does that work? The members pay dues out of their checking account, so an organizer will go out into the field, door knock, get a member to sign up. The goal is to get them to enter their If checking account information so they can do direct debit. not, they'll come by and collect payments from the -Q Let's just break this down a bit. If you were an ACORN organizer and I was a member of your community and you approached me, would I pay you monthly to become a member? A Q A $30. Q Would that be -- was there an encouragement by the Yes. How much would I pay? It would depend. I've heard anywhere from ten to organization to have a direct deposit out of my checking account? A Q Yes. And were there problems with those direct withdrawals from checking accounts? A Q A Yes. And what were the problems? Sometimes I would answer the phones or I would be I was always manning the faxes in the D.C. local office. hanging around. And I remember overhearing about members that were calling in -MS. SIMPSON: Objection, hearsay. Not offered for the truth of the MS. HEIDELBAUGH: matter asserted. Offered for the organization's lack of organization in regard to keeping funds and also the membership status. MS. SIMPSON: we're here. MS. HEIDELBAUGH: THE COURT: I'll move on. It's also irrelevant. That's not why Very well. I'll move on. MS. HEIDELBAUGH: BY MS. HEIDELBAUGH: Q Have you been intimidated in regard to your coming here today? MS. SIMPSON: THE COURT: Objection, asked and answered. Overruled. Yes. I was asked to back down, and I THE WITNESS: was told that they were bringing their big guns for me and, you know, it would be best for everyone if I just didn't testify. BY MS. HEIDELBAUGH: Q A Q Are you frightened? Yes. Why did you decide to go ahead if you're frightened? A Because someone needed to do it. This is a very important time in ACORN's history. this is going to sound so stupid. They're on the -- and But I really do feel like   they're ready to where they can be a really great organization but there's people that are digging their heels in and they're fighting the truth. And the truth is the only thing that's going to make this all go away, not another coverup. And I don't like to be threatened. be backed into a corner. afraid. I don't like to I'm not -- I don't like to be And so I realized I'd like to just tell the truth. I can either stay in the corner and be scared and, you know, hiding at my mom's house or I can come out and get in front of everybody. Q This is a little out of order, but when a fraudulent voter registration card is found, is there an attempt in the organization to try to fix it? And if so, how does that whole thing work, and can you tie in the money in regard to that? A From what I understand, there's a project called Project -- Project Fix Error where they contact bad cards, whether they be from ACORN or whoever submitted the cards. They try to find out the type of information that is needed to get this person on the rolls. And from what I also understand, Democracy Alliance was approached or is funding this project. Q All right. Now, does ACORN seek additional donors to fix the bad registrations that they know they already have to get additional money? A Well, that's what's happening. But they're saying because they're getting cards from everywhere, they're not just fixing ACORN's bad cards. They're fixing any bad cards to make sure that these people get on the rolls. MS. HEIDELBAUGH: have for this witness. That's all the questions that I At this time, I would move for the admission of the documents that I have presented to the witness which were moved without objection, I believe, Your Honor. THE COURT: inclusive? MR. MASLAND: THE COURT: No, Your Honor. Any objections to Exhibits 1 through 4 They're received. (Exhibits Nos. P-1 through P-4 were admitted into evidence.) THE COURT: All right. We're going to take a brief break ....

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:10 PM

In early October 2008 my office was flooded with reports that Northwest Indiana ACORN dropped approximately 5,000 voter registration applications at the lake County Voter Registration Office during the last few days, even hours, of the voter registration period of the 2008 General Election. Many of these forms appeared to the Lake County Board of Elections and Registration to be suspicious, incomplete, or unverifiable. Officials at the county voter registration reported that there was hardly enough time to adequately verify the information on the applications, but that on quick review, thousands of the applications appeared invalid.

Rokita's office studied copies of 1,483 of the flagged applications and found that 88 percent of the names could not be verified. 61 percent had one or more critical defects rendering them invalid or useless. 26 percent showed evidence that a third party assisted, corrected or altered required data and 22 percent appeared to be multiple applications prepared by the same individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:03 PM

The documents contain fliers announcing programs that bring people into the ACORN offices for the first time. "ACORN is working with CitiBank to help homeowners avoid foreclosure," one flier read.

Anita MonCrief, a former ACORN employee and whistleblower, testified that unsuspecting individuals would come to ACORN for help, fill out a form that included their banking information, not understanding that they were agreeing to a $10 per month membership fee auto-debit from their bank account.

"They did not understand what they were signing," MonCrief said.

There were printouts in the released documentation of member data forms that included the banking information, and there were handwritten notes, emails and snail mail repeatedly demanding that ACORN stop auto-debiting $10 a month from their bank account.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 12:44 PM

You brought "Negative consent" into the discussion. You explain it.

"the way the people who made the tapes want us to think it happened."

Is a pre-judgment the say that they "want us to think" a certain way when there is no proof.


What is it that you know for certain, without any proof, trials, convictions or sentances that they "want us to think"?

Whom, other than you, are in this group known as "us"?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 08:22 AM

That was the dreaded 666 post...

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:31 AM

Most of the really poor people I know don't have bank accounts. It was part of the laughable "de-regulation of banking." If you overdraw your checking account and you can't get the money together to make a deposit in a certain amount of time, the bank closes the account, comes after you for the negative balance--adding a lot of fees along the way--and then puts you on a list so you can never open another account anywhere else.

               Even if the people on the tapes did everything their accusers are saying they did, I don't see how they broke any laws.

               That having been said, those executives who stole money from the organization should be in jail, along with the ones who promoted voter fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:09 AM

I don't see where you have been accused of anything but prejudging the undercover people while demanding that ACORN should not be prejudged and that matters.

Pre-judging would be if I said we know they falsified the tape, so we don't need to see any more evidence. It's not a pre-judgment to say that we can't determine whether or not the accusations by the people who made the videos are true until we see the rest of the evidence. Which is what I am and have been saying. The only pre-judging that is being done is by you and those who think we can make a judgment about the guilt of the ACORN workers in the videos before we have seen all of the evidence.


Please explain "negative consent", and show us the evidence that they used this tactic.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 01:17 AM

ACORN debits bank accounts of the poor

    This is an organization touted to care about the poor rather than make the poor poorer...

Have you ever had automatic debits taken from your account without your active consent? The oldest marketing scam in the world, negative consent, was used by ACORN. This took advantage of the poor they are supposed to be helping.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:44 PM

With ACORN Paying The Salaries, The Progressive America Fund Providing The Framework And The Working Families Organization Paying For Lobbying, The Working Families Party Expands Nationwide

With the 2009 New York City election results, the Working Families Party proved itself the most potent new political force in the city and state. But the success has been building for years—as has an ongoing effort by leaders of the Working Families in New York to expand the party's reach around the country.

Together with like-minded activists in other states, they have poured money, effort and inspiration into the Missouri Working Families Committee, the Connecticut Working Families Party, the Oregon Working Families Party, the Washington Working Families Coalition, the Massachusetts Working Families Organization, the South Carolina Working Families Party, a Maine Working Families effort, the Delaware Working Families Party, the New Jersey Working Families Alliance, the California Working Families Party and the Nevada Working Families Party—all of which have risen and fallen in various forms in recent years. And the Vermont Working Families Party is about to start coming together, with several town caucuses already underway.

According to multiple interviews with the people involved in other states, the expansion of Working Families parties has been overseen by Dan Cantor, the executive director of the Working Families Party and Working Families Organization, and Larry Moskowitz, the national labor coordinator for the New York WFP.

Moskowitz also serves as a WFP state committeeman from Upper Manhattan and has been listed as a contact for the Progressive America Fund on tax forms filed with other organizations.

Moskowitz was also one of the people listed as assisting a January 2008 report by the Progressive America Fund's subsidiary, the National Open Ballot Project, entitled, "Technical and Cost Considerations of 'Fusion Voting' in Oregon and Maine." Listed with him as assisting with the report are Joanne Wright, a former ACORN employee who was the treasurer of the Progressive America Fund, and Clare Crawford, the ACORN deputy political director for national organizing who not long after the report came out identified herself in government testimony in Oregon as the national director of the National Open Ballot Project.

That report lists a National Open Ballot Project advisory board which includes Bertha Lewis, who is the CEO of ACORN, a co-chair of the Working Families Party, an initial director of the Working Families Organization and a former treasurer of the Progressive America Fund. Also on the advisory board is Melissa Mark-Viverito, a former Service Employees International Union (SEIU)organizer who had WFP and ACORN support in her 2005 election and 2009 re-election bids to the New York City Council.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Dec 09 - 11:41 PM

-- A former Las Vegas supervisor for the political advocacy group ACORN was sentenced Monday to up to three years' probation for his role in a plan to pay canvassers to register Nevada voters during last year's presidential campaign.

Christopher Edwards pleaded guilty in August to two gross misdemeanor charges of conspiracy to commit the crime of compensation for registration of voters. He testified in September that ACORN canvassers making $8 per hour were paid bonuses of $5 per shift if they turned in 21 or more voter registration cards.



Edwards is expected to be a star witness at an April trial for ACORN and a former regional director, Amy Busefink.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 09:44 PM

"So am I being accused of having said that the ACORN workers in the video did nothing wrong or not?"

I don't see where you have been accused of anything but prejudging the undercover people while demanding that ACORN should not be prejudged and that matters.


There are thousands of organizations that do what ACORN claims it does. They go about their business quietly and correctly without causing a controversy. Acorn is making the good organizations look bad.

I think ACORN blows it's own horn about how great it is, covers up it's own corruption even front it's own board, collects dues from it's poor members and shakes down businesses for protection money like the Mafia. All they want is more and more money. Then they play an Enron style shell game with the money through their 300+ entities. If ACORN is so benign, why won't Bertha open the books?

Take that money being given to ACORN and give it to reputable organizations that do it right. Then more of it will actually benefit the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 07:56 AM

Even if the employees did everything they tape makers say they did--and I think they did exactly that--what laws were broken, and what charges could be made to try them in court?

               The people who need to be prosecuted are the ones who embezzled the non-profit's funds, and those who worked to cover up the embezzlement.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 01:30 AM

Doesn't matter whether or not I am judging their motives. All that matters is that we don't have any evidence that would stand up in a court of law that the ACORN employees did what the people who made the video say they did. That's all that matters, because they are the ones who are being accused by the people who made the video, and it is that, and whether or not any punitive action should be taken against ACORN that are the subjects of this discussion.

It doesn't matter one bit what I think of the people who made the video. The only thing that matters is whether or not they have any valid evidence of the things they are accusing the ACORN employees of doing. So far we have not seen any.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 11:00 PM

Horrors. What a terrible thing it is to say "I don't know"!
What hypocrisy! What a pathetic lack of self-righteous certainty!
How can you not reach a definitive conclusion from an edited tape?
You partisan hack!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 06:39 PM

So am I being accused of having said that the ACORN workers in the video did nothing wrong or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 06:37 PM

I can't find any words accusing you of saying the workers did nothing wrong on those dates.

You make conflicting statements such as:

"the way the people who made the tapes want "us" (whomever us includes) to think it happened." as if it is a fact that they wanted "us" to think it happened a certain way, whatever way that might be, different from the way it actually happened.

You have prejudged these people by claiming they want "us" to think it was different from what happened. You have convicted them of "bad behavior".

but you say "that judgments shouldn't be made until the results of the investigations are reported."

This is nothing but a bigoted, straw man, us against them argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:58 PM

And one of the times I was accused of saying they did nothing wrong was after I said that they did do something wrong, but not necessarily what was in the tapes.

I think someone is just trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:56 PM

20 Oct 09 - 09:27 AM

18 Oct 09 - 12:29 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:54 PM

21 Oct 09 - 12:28 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:30 PM

Please show me where I have said that you said the accused employees never did anything wrong.

Bertha must have decided they did something wrong and fired them.

And yes, the tape is questionable but how does that prove the undercover people did anything wrong? How does that prove that it is not representative of what actually happened? You are prejudging them, the same way you claim others are prejudging ACORN.


Bertha Lewis:You know what? I have to thank, I have to thank the undercover folks because they sort of did us a good service...


BLITZER: All right, that was in the Baltimore office of...

LEWIS: right.

BLITZER: ...of acorn.

What -- where -- where was that doctored or edited, if you will?

LEWIS: well, first of all, you didn't see the entire unedited version. You saw a very small clip. Also, you see...

BLITZER: but was that little unedited clip accurate?

LEWIS: and that little -- that little piece that we saw, this was...

BLITZER: did that woman cooperate with this sting operation?

LEWIS: that -- well, first of all, she never filed out anything. But that woman was terminated immediately. This is just not with our values. And whether or not they were duped or stupid doesn't matter. That kind of thing cannot go on. This is why people were terminated quite quickly. And this is why we are instituting...

BLITZER: so...

LEWIS: ...a top to bottom review. BLITZER: so you say they actually did you a favor, these -- these filmmakers -- by going out there and finding these bad apples. But you want...

LEWIS: (INAUDIBLE).

BLITZER: in the past, your people have suggested you want to sue these guys. LEWIS: well, here's the thing. In certain states, you can only tape people with their permission. You have to have both parties.

BLITZER: on telephone calls.

LEWIS: and telephone calls, too.

BLITZER: on telephone calls.

But could you...

LEWIS: but not in video. And...

BLITZER: you can't go in?

LEWIS: and in Maryland, you can't do this audio at all. So our lawyers are looking to go after Mr. O'Keefe, who has done this before and admits he is a right-wing conservative videographer who does things like this.

And, you know, we are going to make sure that all of the tapes get out and have -- and seek to stop this kind of thing.

BLITZER: are you open to an external review right now, because there's talk not only of federal, but state and local authorities -- they want to investigate acorn and find what else is going on given all this commotion.

LEWIS: well, ever since last year these kinds of things have come up, you know...

BLITZER: but now the FBI director says he's -- Robert Mueller, he's open -- he -- he's thinking about an investigation.

LEWIS: well, maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But here's...

BLITZER: Mayor Bloomberg of New York says this Brooklyn operation...

LEWIS: and we will -- well...

BLITZER: ...he wants -- he wants an investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 04:36 PM

The tape is quite obviously edited. There are breaks in the action (missing sequences). That is editing. All of the footage is not there. Some of it is missing. That's not disputable. What we don't know is what is on the parts that are missing, and we don't know for sure what the people posing as the pimp and prostitute were saying for sure because we can't see their mouths while they are speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 04:23 PM

The tape wasn't edited!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 02:02 PM

OMG.
No.
The point is that a heavily edited tape is not evidence of anything.
Is that so hard to "get a grip" on?
Really.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 12:47 AM

Please show me where I have said that the accused employees never did anything wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 09 - 12:28 AM

"The possibility renders your "evidence" worthless."

I haven't produced any evidence. You haven't produced any evidence.

What the hell does Rush Limbaugh have to do with the validity of these tapes? Someone altered a tape of him and that means the undercover people did the same? Get a grip.

"they were giving advice about how to report income" So now CC says Acorn did do something wrong with out waiting to see the outcome.

How can you twist things around so far as to say Acorn did something wrong but thier funding should not be cut off because there is no evidence they did anything wrong?

There are thousands of organizations that do what ACORN claims it does. They go about their business quietly and correctly without causing a controversy. Acorn is making the good organizations look bad.

ACORN blows it's own horn about how great it is, covers up it's own corruption even front it's own board, collects dues from it's poor members and shakes down businesses for protection money like the Mafia does. All they want is more and more money. Then they play an Enron style shell game with the money through their 300+ entities.

Take that money and give it to reputable organizations that do it right. Then more of it will actually benefit the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 11:39 PM

Everyone's entitled to their opinions. My own opinion is that it's too early to tell whether or not funding for ACORN should be cut off, and that investigations into the matter are entirely appropriate, but that judgments shouldn't be made until the results of the investigations are reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 09:46 PM

I think the ACORN people did what was shown on the tapes, but what did they do that one could prosecute for. The did a lot of things that should get their funding cut off, but nothing for which to be prosecuted.

               The people at the top who stole the money should be prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 12:59 PM

"Tia says anyone can do anything but the possibility does not make evidence. That is about the flimsiest proof I can imagine."

No. The possibility renders your "evidence" worthless.

Or would you similarly argue that the Limbaugh song I linked to is a completely accurate depiction of him? Because the *possibility* of it being a cut and paste job does not negate the evidence, right?

I think you are greatly confused about burden of proof issues in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 10:18 AM

And, as I have said repeatedly, I didn't say they did nothing wrong. I am saying we don't have any proof that they were actually told that the people who we are told were posing as a pimp and a prostitute actually told them that, and we don't know that they told them they were going to start a child sex slave ring. As of right now, we have no proof of those things.

They were fired because we do know that they were giving advice about how to report income that they shouldn't have been giving. But that is not the same issue as whether or not they were under the impression that they were talking to a pimp and a prostitute who were planning on starting a child sex slave ring.

I've already answered that question several times here in this thread. I would suggest actually paying attention this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 10:12 AM

No, what I'm saying, and what I have been saying all along, is that we can't take the evidence we've been given so far (the videos) as the truth, because they have been edited, and they wouldn't stand up in a court of law. We need to see the whole, unedited footage before we can say that the ACORN employees shown on the tape have done what we have been told they did by the people who made the videos. I am saying that their evidence is faulty and does not prove anything at this time. That's what I'm saying.

And I would consider offering advice, and more importantly, not reporting people who say they're planning on starting a child sex slave ring to the authorities, as aiding and abetting. Like I said, I don't know if the law would agree with that, but it's my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 09:27 AM

CC:

Now that were are getting to specifics instead of generalities, you have raised some legitimate concerns.

The acorn people did not actually aid and abet. They just talked about it. I guess you could say giving advice was aid.

As to tortured logic, you claim that the undercover people unquestionably did something wrong, you do not wait to see it is true but you say to wait to see if ACORN did something wrong. It isn't torture for me. Your run screaming comment is more shrill rhetoric.

Tia says anyone can do anything but the possibility does not make evidence. That is about the flimsiest proof I can imagine.

It is also possible that the ACORN people did what was shown in the videos.

And I still can't understand why the ACORN people were fired if they did nothing wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 11:28 PM

Wow, Sawzaw - you really do need a map don't you?
The point about Rush Limbaugh (see my link above - or did you even bother to?) is that you can make *anyone* say *anything* with clever editing!
Now go listen to the link, and think about that (and compare to the clearly edited ACORN tapes).
No double standard here - apply the same standard to both (if you are capable).

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 01:36 PM

In my opinion, anyone who aids and abets human trafficking and sex slavery (or slavery of any kind) belongs in jail. I have zero tolerance for that kind of thing. I have no idea if the courts would agree with me in this case, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 08:41 AM

The Louisiana District Attorney who has re-opened the embezzlement case might find grounds to prosecute for criminal behavior. What would be criminal about the stooges in the taping incident?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 01:18 AM

It's really a crime the way some people torture logic. I am not suggesting that the people who made the video should be punished in any way unlike the person who is causing logic to run screaming for its life just above with regard to ACORN. So guilt or innocence is beside the point when it comes to whether or not the videos would stand up to scrutiny in a court of law. The plain fact is that they could not stand up in a court of law, where the accused have a right to be considered innocent until their guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and what is said by the accusers must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

That's the American way. Anyone who doesn't like it maybe should go find a more dictatorial regime in which to do their propagandizing and smear mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 12:59 AM

So according to CC the undercover people are guilty until they can prove their innocence?

And of course Acorn is innocent until proven guilty.

"It is illegal under state law to tape someone without his or her permission." When they have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Privacy does not exist in a busy public office with several people present.

Or in a bank with security cameras.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 01:38 PM

And if anyone thinks that just seeing something on tape or film is proof that it is real, that person is the one who is superstitious. I guess those dinosaurs in the Jurassic Park films prove that there really are dinosaurs roaming the earth today.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 01:37 PM

I would suggest actually reading my posts before responding to them. I did not say the ACORN employees did nothing wrong. It's right there in several of my posts. I said that the accusation that they knew they were addressing a pimp and a prostitute and that these people told them they were going to operate a child sex slave ring is disputed by the people in the videos and by ACORN.

I support investigations into what actually happened like this one by the government of California. If they are found to be guilty of the above charges, I think the workers in question should go to jail. However unlike the above poster who still lives in the dark ages, I don't think they or the organization they worked for should be punished before they are found to be guilty, and I don't think the organization should be punished if they were not aware that things like this were happening in some of their local offices. They should take responsibility for a lack of appropriate training, and they should correct that (and they are doing that), but there is no reason whatever to shut down the whole operation for something like that if they correct the problem so it won't happen again (if, in fact, all of it turns out to be true).

The edits in the tape are quite apparent. All one has to do is watch the tape to see them. And we never actually see the "pimp" and "prostitute" actually say any of the things we hear them saying. There is no way for us to know whether or not that is what they actually said. These things are quite obvious and because of them, the tape we saw would never hold up in a court of law. They would have to show the whole tapes and even then, we still might not know if we never see them saying the things we heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 12:29 PM

No Idea of how to prove a negative?

If the Acorn employees did nothing wrong, why did Bertha fire them?
Wouldn't it be bad behavior to fire somebody that is courageously helping poor people and did nothing wrong?

How do you know what "the people who made the tapes" wants you to think?

Who is included in people "on their side of the argument"? Am I somehow responsible for what Rush Limbaugh says and am I somehow obligated to condemn or defend it?

Who is included in us? Are you speaking for some sort of group that I am supposed to show a tape to that I don't have?

Is this some sort of hypothetical battle between two opposing sides? A straw man argument?

I am only one person and I am not uncivilly, shrilly calling anybody an asshole because they disagree with me. I invite all points of view. I merely ask that you follow the requirements you place on others.

Remember the dark ages when people thought everything they saw was not real, just the work of demons? You know what you saw but you prefer to demonize some sort of straw man group of people rather that face reality.

If there is any evidence that those tapes were altered somehow, I would like to hear it instead of calling someone an asshole because they ask for proof like you do. The burden is on the accuser, not the accused.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:46 PM

Yessirree, video/audio certainly don't lie.
Let's spread the truth about Rush Limbaugh.
(It's all here on the record......well maybe edited a little, but we don't need the unedited version do we??????).
Spread The Truth

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:26 PM

I know. No prob.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:20 PM

Not the above poster, but the one before that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:19 PM

I'm not defending anything. I'm saying I need to see more evidence of it before I'm willing to take anyone's word for whether or not it happened the way the people who made the tapes want us to think it happened. Even Bertha Lewis says that what the tapes show isn't what actually happened. The behavior she is saying was inexcusable on the part of the employees who were fired is not the behavior that we are told they engaged in and that has everyone so up in arms.

The above poster, on the other hand, has absolutely no problem with bad behavior when it comes from people who are on their side of the argument, so that's yet more hypocrisy on their part.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:17 PM

Sawzaw:
You are being a bigoted, misogynistic asshole. Show the whole, unedited video, and then people of good faith and intelligence can make an informed judgement. Until then, you are being a shrill ideologue. Is the whole truth too much to ask? Is the whole truth something to be feared?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:58 PM

interview of ST Louis Acorn Workers

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:39 PM

CC is defending something that even Barack Obama and the head of ACORN says is indefensible.

Lewis said the steps were being taken in response to "the indefensible action of a handful of our employees."

Meanwhile Acorn was awarded a federal grant for $997,402 [now frozen] and local fire fighers got nothing. How many Acorn workers get killed in the line of duty? How many people do they rescue from burning buildings?

CC is "unwilling to wait until there is actual proof of the wrongdoing" before she spreads rumor and gossip because of her bigoted intolerance.

You are welcome to your views. Please state them here and your proof of wrongdoing like you require from others.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:50 PM

Firefighters roll ACORN under da bus:

St. Tammany News:

Fire officials in St. Tammany Parish are hot under the collar after learning earlier this month that nearly $1 million in federal fire prevention grant money was earmarked for the ACORN Institute in New Orleans.

Fire District 1 in Slidell and Fire District 3 in Lacombe had applied for grants through the Assistance to Firefighters program of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Both were turned down.

“We had asked for a little over $100,000, and we were denied,â€쳌 said Fire District 3 Chief Chuck Flynn. “Then I found out that ACORN was approved for $1 million, and that just made no sense, so I sent a letter to David Vitter.â€쳌

Flynn was hoping to install smoke detectors in low-income homes throughout the Lacombe area and that by doing so his department would prevent a repeat of a January incident that killed four children. In Slidell, FD1 had asked for about $20,000 for its Hazard House, a portable teaching aid that shows all of the possible fire hazards that can be found in a home.

The grant to ACORN in the amount of $997,402 was awarded on Sept. 4, just shortly before a controversial video surfaced in which ACORN employees were seen advising two filmmakers posing as a prostitute and a pimp on how to skirt tax laws. A few weeks later, Congress voted to cut off all funding to the group, thus freezing the grant.

The grant was one of the largest issued by FEMA under the program, and one of only three awarded in Louisiana, the others going to the State Fire Marshal’s Office in Baton Rouge and the Monroe Fire Department.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:49 PM

The first thing that needs to happen is for the people who made the video to show all of the footage they took, unedited. Until they do that, the video that they have provided so far has no credibility, and would not stand up in a court of law.

I'm not the one who is being bigoted here. I am willing to revise my assessment of ACORN if I am shown proof of what is being alleged against them (such proof has so far not been provided). The one who is being bigoted in this case is the one who is unwilling to wait until there is actual proof of the wrongdoing that has been alleged and who is spreading gossip and smears in order to disenfranchise people they don't want to have a vote in our elections.

The bigot in this discussion is the one who is so utterly intolerant of any views other than their own, that they think they get to change the rule that in the US, people are innocent until proven guilty, and instead are trying to (shrilly) to shove their view down the throats of everyone else that no guilt needs to be proven, it only needs to be asserted.

(I note the use of the word "shrill" in this case... a word that is only used by men when they are addressing or talking about women. I note this, because when men resort to this kind of sexist language in a debate with women, it always means they know they are losing the debate, and it's all they've got left to work with)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:34 PM

"until it has been proven that the video was not edited to make it look like things happened differently than they actually did happen."

How does one prove a negative?

You are accusing someone who has possibly exposed ACORN corruption of editing videos to make it look like things happened differently than they actually did happen. It is up to you to prove your accusation, not for them to disprove it. Or does innocent until proven guilty only work one way in your world?

You keep repeating it over an over in a shrill, bigoted* attempt to smear someone with hearsay and gossip.

You don't even bother to say "allegedly" edited which indicates that the videos were unquestionably edited.

*Bigoted - utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 12:32 AM

Nope. Sorry, that one can't be flipped. They are the ones making the accusations, and if their accusations can't be proven (and since they are making them, it is up to them to prove them), then they are nothing but gossip. Let them prove their accusations against ACORN. Until they do, they are nothing but hearsay and gossip.

Those videos as they are now would not stand up in a court of law.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 12:09 AM

CC: let us know when they get any convictions. Or when they don't.

Saying they were altered is gossip and could very possibly be a lie. And spreading that kind of gossip is smear mongering, until it has been proven that the video was edited to make it look like things happened differently than they actually did happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 12:02 AM

SIEU rolls ACORN under da bus:

On Wednesday, September 30, the union's secretary-treasurer, Anna Burger, told a congressional panel that her organization no longer has a working relationship with the New Orleans-based nationwide nonprofit "anti-poverty" network ACORN. "SEIU has also cut all ties to ACORN"

We have suspended all contracts and active work with ACORN," said union spokeswoman Michelle Ringuette,

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 05:36 PM

Yes, I can. Until we have seen all of the video footage that was taken at the ACORN offices (unedited), saying that ACORN employees were giving advice on running whorehouses with underage girls and income tax evasion (as the above poster has done), is gossip and could very possibly be a lie. And spreading that kind of gossip is smear mongering, until it has been proven that the video was not edited to make it look like things happened differently than they actually did happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 12:06 AM

"lies, gossip, and smears against ACORN"

Can you point out a specific example?


Bertha rolls Wade Rathke's "longtime companion" and mother of his two children under da bus:

Times Pickayune.

Beth Butler, the longtime executive director of Lousiana ACORN, was terminated by the organization's national leadership Monday amid a power struggle at the embattled advocacy group.

Butler’s sacking came two days after local ACORN leaders criticized President Barack Obama’s planned itinerary for a trip to New Orleans this week â€" comments that drew an immediate rebuke from ACORN’s national leaders.

On Sunday, ACORN Chief Executive Bertha Lewis said the remarks, which were not uttered by Butler, were "without authority and do not reflect the position of the national leadership." Lewis said she would "be personally going to New Orleans to deal with the individual involved."

Less than 24 hours later, Butler was fired. An angry Butler said Monday that the real reason for her firing was not the flap over Obama’s visit, but a simmering tussle over assets that ACORN’s Louisiana affiliate controls and that the national group covets.

In particular, Butler said headquarters has its eye on a land trust set up by the Louisiana branch. The trust owns five relatively modest houses, she said, and has a bank account of perhaps $60,000 intended for rehabilitation work â€" nothing to sneeze at, she said, "in the nonprofit world."

As it happens, ACORN officials agree with Butler that her termination was not carried out only as retribution for the Obama critique. Rather, according to an ACORN official who would speak only on background, the episode was "reflective of a lack of accountability to process" on Butler’s part.

Butler had repeatedly breached ACORN protocol, and this was the most recent instance, he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 12:49 PM

Flogging a dead horse, my friend. I've already taken the air out of that one. Try reading my posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 10:08 AM

CC: "Sproul, who has donated nearly $30,000 to McCain's campaign, has been in the good graces of GOP officials for the past decade despite charges of ethical and potentially legal wrongdoing."

CC:In the United States of America, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, it is the burden of those who are making the accusations to prove them. If they do not, we can safely say that the accusations have no basis in fact and are nothing more than gossip and smear mongering."

Any convictions or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:57 PM

Bingo.
Well said.
Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 03:26 PM

It's not a different standard. It's a different context. This thread is being used by someone who has been trying for years to get ACORN shut down, and that person has made hundreds of posts containing lies, gossip, and smears against ACORN. I have posted a few examples of other people doing things that this poster has been accusing ACORN of doing in order to draw attention to this person's hypocrisy, and the fact that they really couldn't give a shit about the principles behind their accusations, because if they did, they would be equally outraged by these things when they are done by those they personally support. If they really did give a shit, they would be working just as hard to get the other people shut down or penalized as well. They are not, and they don't care about the underlying principles. All they care about is disenfranchising poor people.

And even if this person wanted to wait until it was proved that the people on the side they support have done the things they are accused of before anyone calls for punitive action, they are still being hypocritical for not insisting that the same standards be applied to ACORN.

It's all about the double standards of the person waging the vendetta against ACORN in this thread, and about their blatant agenda to disenfranchise people who vote in ways that person doesn't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 03:10 PM

CC's standard for CC: "I don't need to keep anyone posted"


CC's standard for others:"Well, let us know when they get any convictions. Or when they don't."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:07 AM

I think Peace has it right. It would be a good idea to spread the truth about ACORN when we figure out what the truth is.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 12:21 PM

I don't need to keep anyone posted on whether or not Sproul gets convicted. I'm not waging a vendetta to get punitive action taken against him as the above poster is doing with ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 09:46 AM

"Sproul, who has donated nearly $30,000 to McCain's campaign, has been in the good graces of GOP officials for the past decade despite charges of ethical and potentially legal wrongdoing."

Well, let us know when they get any convictions. Or when they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 01:01 AM

Regarding the thread title: Spread the Truth About ACORN: Well, soon as we know what it is we should do just that.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 11:54 PM

Well, let us know when they get any convictions. Or when they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 11:09 PM

Reuters:

The Evidence Against ACORN Mounts: Newly Obtained Whistleblower Affidavits Further Document Abuse of Taxpayer Funds

WASHINGTON, July 31 /PRNewswire/ -- The Consumers Rights League (CRL)
today released newly obtained affidavits from former ACORN and Acorn Housing Corporation (AHC) employees that attest to ACORN and AHC's illegal practice of using taxpayer dollars to fund political activity.
    The affidavits from two former AHC employees, obtained by CRL following the publication of its original report in June, "ACORN's Hypocritical House of Cards," make further specific and damning allegations, including:
    -- AHC and ACORN were at one time being funded from a joint account, which would appear to violate the same laws highlighted by the AmeriCorps Inspector General in 1994.
    -- According to a former ACORN board member and AHC employee, AHC -- which received taxpayer money -- directly used funds to support ACORN activities, including paying for rent at an office where AHC was not even a tenant. -- Perhaps most troubling, the sworn statement of former AHC staffer Andrew Johnson suggests AHC leadership pressured employees to intentionally hide information from HUD investigators.
    Statement from James Terry, Chief Public Advocate, Consumers Rights League:
    "These AHC affidavits are further evidence in a growing litany of
potentially illegal abuses of taxpayer dollars by ACORN and AHC. Members of Congress, who recently doled out millions of dollars to these groups in the housing bailout bill, need to ask some serious questions to ensure that those taxpayer dollars are being spent properly and not illegally supporting political activity, or being squandered by an organization with an already checkered past of voter fraud and embezzlement. In addition to the affidavits, these former employees have offered to assist any investigation with additional information. It is time for Congress, HUD and others to exercise proper oversight and investigate these entities before millions more in public funds are wasted."
    Background:
    In June, the Consumers Rights League released a report exposing the role of ACORN in the nation's housing crisis. The report, "ACORN's Hypocritical House of Cards," included whistleblower documents provided by former ACORN and ACORN Housing Corporation (AHC) employees. The report outlined AHC's repeated pattern of shaking down corporate targets, driving low-income consumers to questionable loan products, and potentially misusing taxpayer funds by
maintaining what appears to be an illegally close relationship with ACORN,which engages in overtly political activity.
    AHC is a federally recognized tax-exempt organization. As such it is not allowed to share funds or provide funding for ACORN. Over a three-year period surveyed for the AHC report that organization took in 40% -- or more than $7 million -- in taxpayer funds. Over the same period, AHC gave grants and paid fees totaling more than $4.6 million to ACORN-related organizations (including Citizens Consulting, from which the brother of ACORN founder Wade Rathke embezzled nearly $1 million).
    The June Consumers Rights League report highlighted the 1994 scandal in which AHC was caught by government investigators for falsely claiming to be a separate entity from ACORN so that it could use taxpayer money for combined operations. The AmeriCorps Inspector General's report concluded:
    "Not only did we find references to ACORN having 'created' AHC to serve purposes common to both organizations, we noted numerous transactions and activities involving 'fraternal' ACORN-related corporations."
    In that case, it was found that ACORN had abused the $1 million grant from taxpayers. The practice seems to have continued as AHC has taken in millions more from public coffers. An alarming internal AHC memo from September 2004 specifically stated: "Total funding from HUD's fair housing initiatives this year is about $650,000 which will provide a good opportunity for ACORN and AHC to work together on housing issues and campaigns."
    About The Consumers Rights League:
    The Consumers Rights League is a non-profit, non-partisan educational organization dedicated to protecting consumer choice and access to the marketplace. Through investigative analysis, CRL produces quality research that thoroughly documents the real-world choices and challenges consumers face and reports on the benefits enjoyed by an overwhelming majority of consumers.
Learn more about CRL's mission at www.consumersrightsleague.org.
    Affidavits and full ACORN report available at the following links:
www.consumersrightsleague.org//UploadedFiles/Affidavit%20Andrew%20Johnson.pdf
www.consumersrightsleague.org//UploadedFiles/Glenda%20Kizee%20Affidavit.pdf
SOURCE The Consumers Rights League

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 10:38 PM

"taken as facts."

You are hereby invited to disprove any of these things that I believe to be facts.

You claim ACORN fights for living wages. This is disproved by the fact that ACORN sued California for exemption from the minimum wages. They want living wages for everybody but the people they hire.

One standard for them and a different standard for others.

And yes, one example is enough to prove hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 04:03 PM

It's time for somebody to roll SEIU under the bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 03:22 PM

SRS: "the many other offices that didn't bite weren't reported"

How many?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 12:21 PM

I'm not accusing the above poster of gossip and smear mongering. I am accusing the people who are generating the gossip and smear mongering that the above poster has taken as facts.

I don't have to prove ACORN's innocence. In the United States of America, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, it is the burden of those who are making the accusations to prove them. If they do not, we can safely say that the accusations have no basis in fact and are nothing more than gossip and smear mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 12:13 PM

"Anything come of that one? Any convictions?"

I never claimed anything about convictions. My only clam is that I beleive the things I post to be facts. If someone can prove they are not facts I will retract them.

You are welcome post anything you want and I will not attack you personally or accuse you of gossip and smear mongering.

It seems that some try to control what is posted in these forums as if free speech is subject to their own personal beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 11:22 AM

SIEU rolls ACORN under da bus:

Anna Burger on Youtube: "SEIU has also cut all ties to ACORN."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 10:52 AM

Well, I haven't been over this before, but I haven't read the entire thread. But they have been eliminated from some programs such as the census. One would expect that they had anticipated getting funds from the government to do that, which will now not be made available.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 10:46 AM

The House voted on an amendment to a bill that cuts off funding for ACORN, but the bill has not passed yet (and may not, or may not have the amendment still attached if and when it does), so the government has not cut off any funding to ACORN as of this time. We've been over this one before.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 10:41 AM

http://www.dailyjournalonline.com/articles/2009/10/10/news/doc4ab3a8aac8a31080687365.txt

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 09:57 AM

Specifically which money that was earmarked for ACORN has been withheld?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 09:45 AM

Large amounts of money that was earmarked for ACORN has been withheld. They haven't cut all the funds to ACORN, and probably won't until some of the outragous allegations have been proven in court.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 07:46 PM

Except that the government has not cut support for ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 07:37 PM

Or it could be because the noses of the commentators on MSNBC finally got so long from lying that they couldn't stand in front of a camera any longer and the truth finally came out.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 03:41 PM

And if they did, could it be because they are cowed by the fear and smear campaign by the FoxNews Messiahs?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 02:48 PM

The government did not cut support for ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 02:39 PM

So Carol C, the government cut support to ACORN because ...?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 02:32 PM

Well, that statement is based on the willingness of the one making it to blindly follow and believe the gossip and smear mongering, so no, that's not a correct statement at all.

IF ACORN, the organization, is ever found to be guilty of any of the things the gossips and smear mongers are saying about it, then the discussion would be different than it is now. But, that has not happened, and it may not ever happen. So until then, all they have to work with is gossip and smear mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 02:02 PM

So when ACORN officials finally admit they are responsible for what happens in their organization and quit trying to blam low-level employees, we'll see the light, what?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 01:42 PM

No, I'm saying that when such a person stops heeding the gossip and smear mongers, they will become more circumspect about passing judgment based on such gossip and smear mongering, and will see the light of independent thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 04:47 AM

**Sigh**
So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that if a person focuses on keeping 'their side of the street' clean, as I posted, and disregards people arguing over who is more corrupt, that some day, that person will 'see the light'????

Its late Carol, get some sleep.

You just laid an egg.....too!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 04:14 AM

Yes, but I hold out hope that the ostriches (like the above poster) will eventually understand why they see only darkness, and figure out that all they need to do is pull their heads out of the sand to see the light.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 04:08 AM

An ostrich in every crowd.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 03:49 AM

The problem is that the organization, ACORN, has not been proven to have engaged in any wrongdoing, nor is there necessarily any evidence of any wrongdoing. All we have at this point is a lot of gossip and innuendo, and possibly some outright fraud committed against ACORN.

On the other hand, this thread itself is evidence of a widespread campaign of election fraud being perpetrated by those who are spreading this gossip and innuendo. So where is the wrongdoing here? The wrongdoing is being committed by those who are trying to shut down ACORN specifically for the purpose of disenfranchising the people ACORN serves.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 03:23 AM

While perusing the thread, I see that when one person cites an alleged 'wrongdoing' from ACORN, that another person rebuts with citing something about the Republicans. Does that mean two wrongs make a right, or cancel each other out?? ..or could it just possibly be that they're both right?...and both on sides (as per aforementioned, by me) corruption has taken over both sides??...and if so, just admit it, and take a good hard look at what they(and possibly, you've) become. Corruption is corruption, and as for me, I can't justify either side's corrupt ways. I'd rather clean up and keep clean, my side of the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:13 AM

The head of the company that was switching voter registrations from Democrat to Republican in last year's election was actually convicted, but not of that offense. He was convicted of voter fraud himself. Several states are investigating his company over the switching of the registrations, and from what I have read so far, it looks like those investigations are still ongoing.

Here's some background on that story...

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/18/local/me-fraud18

If the person waging this campaign against ACORN was in the least bit concerned about the validity of our election processes, they would also be waging a campaign against those who help the Republicans cheat as well. But they are not in the least concerned with the validity of our elections processes. All they care about is making sure the Republicans win at any cost. Even if it means overlooking illegal practices committed by the Republicans themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:52 PM

Not sure what the point of the second quote from me was in this context, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:50 PM

I believe there actualy was a conviction on that one, but I'll have to double check to make sure.

I notice that Donna Hanks was charged in 2008. Anything come of that one? Any convictions?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:45 PM

"And of course, yet once again, those who are pointing fingers at ACORN, are completely ignoring the same thing when done by Republicans, like the California Republican Party, and the company they hired that has been submitting falsified registrations as well as fraudulently switching people's registration from Democrat to Republican."

Any convictions yet or just allegations?

"ACORN is a victim of people like him. He defrauded them, took their money, and created a situation in which it is becoming more difficult for that organization accomplish its mission of registering voters"

Any jail time, fines??????????

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:26 PM

Baltimore Slumlord Watch:

Baltimore ACORN "Activist" Louis Beverly is Also a Slumlord, Records Show

Approximately two weeks ago, ACORN "activist" Louis Beverly assisted Donna Hanks in breaking into her former home. Hanks owed $260,000 when the house was placed into foreclosure. Louis Beverly, in an ill-fated publicity stunt, broke the lock on the home, allowing Ms. Hanks entry. As a result, both are facing criminal charges, and Ms. Hanks still doesn't have her house back. After a closer look into Louis Beverly's background, the stunt looks even more ridiculous. Louis Beverly has faced multiple foreclosures, most on his rental property located at 2622 Harford Road. He has also been charged numerous times by the city for failing to maintain his properties, owning a property that was not fit for human habitation, trash dumping, failing to register his property as a rental property, and failure to provide a safe means of egress. All of which are serious health and safety issues for his tenant(s). Along with his property violations, Mr. Beverly was also found guilty of battery and weapons charges.

In addition to his rental property on Harford Road that is currently in foreclosure, Mr. Beverly also owns a rental property at 540 Baker Street, located on a blighted block off North Avenue, and his residence on E. 25th Street. We believe Mr. Beverly's time and energy would be better spent fixing his properties and being a better landlord, than working on cheap publicity stunts.

Donna Hanks, the center of the failed ACORN "takeback" attempt, was found to be illegally renting out the basement of her S. Ellwood Street home, and was also charged with assault and possession of a dangerous weapon with the intent to injure, both in 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:16 PM

So will the person who is posting all of the above allegations come back here with the results of all of these investigations when they come in? (Somehow, I tend to doubt it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 10:58 PM

Phoenix Business Journal

Sheriff Joe rolls Acorn under da bus:

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio is subpoenaing records from the Acorn community activist group, saying it could be using government funds meant for housing and social services to wage a campaign against his immigration enforcement.

The sheriff's office seeking information regarding the group's involvement with Arpaio critics on Melendres v. Arpaio, a case brought by a Mexican national claiming he was unfairly treated and the victim of racial profiling by deputies.

"I believe the organization used state and federal funds meant to help poor people to conduct a campaign against me and my officers," said Arpaio in a statement. "These records will show, I believe, that Acorn is in bed with the anti-immigration enforcement organizations, which continue to demonstrate in front of my office trying to thwart my officers from enforcing state and federal law."

Acorn has called for Arpaio to resign and opposes his immigration raids. The group could not immediately be reached for comment.

The group has come under fire recently for offering tax advice to people posing as prostitutes and pimps. Acorn also has also been questioned for alleged voter fraud and the U.S. Senate voted earlier this week to cut off federal funding for the group.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 11:37 PM

Any official findings of illegality, or just the gossip in internet fora and popular media outlets that we've seen so far?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 11:22 PM

C'mon, Rig.

investigation of wrongdoing = wrongdoing ????? ??

Investigations are just that: investigations.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 11:16 PM

Yes, the activity is illegal. Recent events have renewed the insevtigations.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 10:06 PM

Kingsley's report is more than a year old. Any news on how the investigation is going? Have they found any solid evidence of illegal activity? Or do they only have speculation and innuendo?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:40 PM

Hopefully they're toast. Now they need to go after that crooked union Wade Rathke set up.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:27 PM

New York Times:

An internal report by a lawyer for the community organizing group Acorn raises questions about whether the web of relationships among its 174 affiliates may have led to violations of federal laws.

The group, formally known as the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, has been in the news over accusations that it is involved in voter registration fraud, charges it says are overblown and politically motivated.

The June 18 report, written by Elizabeth Kingsley, a Washington lawyer, spells out her concerns about potentially improper use of charitable dollars for political purposes; money transfers among the affiliates; and potential conflicts created by employees working for multiple affiliates, among other things.

It also offers a different account of the embezzlement of almost $1 million by the brother of Acorn's founder, Wade Rathke, than the one the organization gave in July, when word of the theft became public.

"A full analysis of potential liability will require consultation with a knowledgeable white-collar criminal attorney," Ms. Kingsley wrote of the embezzlement, which occurred in 2000 but was not disclosed until this summer.

In a telephone interview on Monday, Ms. Kingsley and Bertha Lewis, Acorn's top executive, said the group had begun addressing the concerns raised in the report.

"Has everything been done yet? No," Ms. Lewis said. "We've been at this for three months, and we have taken everything she said in the report very seriously. It's a huge undertaking."

Over the weekend, Ms. Kingsley said, the national board adopted several good-governance policies, like appointing an audit committee for the first time.

Disclosure of her report, which was distributed to Acorn and 10 affiliates, increases pressure on the organization at a particularly troublesome time. Besides the inquiries into its voter registration efforts, Acorn faces demands for back taxes by the Internal Revenue Service and various state tax authorities. At the same time, foundations that have backed Acorn are withholding support.

Ms. Kingsley's concerns about the way Acorn affiliates work together could fuel the controversy over Acorn's voter registration efforts, which are largely underwritten by an affiliated charity, Project Vote. Project Vote hires Acorn to do voter registration work on its behalf, and the two groups say they have registered 1.3 million voters this year.

As a federally tax-exempt charity, Project Vote is subject to prohibitions on partisan political activity. But Acorn, which is a nonprofit membership corporation under Louisiana law, though subject to federal taxation, is not bound by the same restrictions.

"Project Vote and Acorn have a written agreement that specifies that all work is nonpartisan," Michael Slater, Project Vote's new executive director, wrote in answer to e-mailed questions about the relationship.

But Ms. Kingsley found that the tight relationship between Project Vote and Acorn made it impossible to document that Project Vote's money had been used in a strictly nonpartisan manner. Until the embezzlement scandal broke last summer, Project Vote's board was made up entirely of Acorn staff members and Acorn members.

Ms. Kingsley's report raised concerns not only about a lack of documentation to demonstrate that no charitable money was used for political activities but also about which organization controlled strategic decisions.

She wrote that the same people appeared to be deciding which regions to focus on for increased voter engagement for Acorn and Project Vote. Zach Pollett, for instance, was Project Vote's executive director and Acorn's political director, until July, when he relinquished the former title. Mr. Pollett continues to work as a consultant for Project Vote through another Acorn affiliate.

"As a result, we may not be able to prove that 501(c)3 resources are not being directed to specific regions based on impermissible partisan considerations," Ms. Kingsley said, referring to the section of the tax code concerning rules for charities.

She also found problems with governance of Acorn affiliates. "Board meetings are not held, or if they are, minutes are not kept, or if minutes are kept, they never make it into the files," she wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:16 PM

Yawn...
Where is the unexpurgated video?
Still waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 07:20 PM

We shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 07:12 PM

No, they can rescind the contracts. All they have to do is say they don't need the services...

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 06:48 PM

Maybe if ACORN is found guilty at some point. That hasn't happened yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 06:38 PM

So they need to sever any ACORN contracts so the can defund them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 03:00 PM

Someone, I think it was a congresswoman, has introduced a bill that would require a contractor to be actually found guilty of a felony before its funding could be barred by the Congress.

Another one is working to get the same standards applied to defense and other contractors as are being applied to ACORN by the Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:56 PM

Stringsinger: I doubt, if presented with indisputable facts about ACORN's transgressions, you would change your opinion.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:45 PM

The only ones telling lies about ACORN are Republicans, and so-called Blue Dog Dems.
(I call them yellow dog Dems).

Most thinking people know that ACORN has been targeted politically and unjustly.

Republicans think they can control the debate through mud-slinging. It's their MO.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 12:43 PM

Recently our defense contractors like McDonel Douglas have racked up 3 billion dollars in fines regarding the 70 billion dollars in contracts in which they have been caught cheating.

Bear in mind that these fines were levied by the Bush administation which was not looking very hard for wrong doing.



If we use ACORN as an example:
do we deny all funds instead of penalizing with fines as we do with Government contractors?

nope

Even Blackwater is still on the US payroll.

ergo we should not treat ACORN more harshly for a crime of speech without action, than we do all the rest of US contractors.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:22 AM

Barney Frank rolls ACORN under da bus:

WSJ:

"I think they have forfeited their right to get [federal] funds"

Mr. Frank also appeared unsympathetic to Acorn's latest attempt to change the subject, a lawsuit filed yesterday against two filmmakers who had videotaped Acorn employees in several cities offering tax evasion advice to a supposed prostitution ring. The suit alleges the filmmakers and news site Breitbart.com violated a local law banning unauthorized taping of individuals. Legal analysts largely panned the case, noting that Acorn had filed the lawsuit jointly with two former Maryland Acorn employees who had previously been fired for the behavior caught on the videotape

Mr. Frank had no comment on the merits of the suit, but did offer this pithy summary: "People have said, 'Well, the sting [against Acorn] is terrible.' I will tell people there is a great defense against being stung. Don't do the kind of things that put you on television."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 01:00 AM

WSJ:

Last August two of Acorn's eight dissident board members, Marcel Reed and Karen Inman, filed suit demanding access to financial records of Citizens Consulting Inc., the umbrella group through which most of Acorn's money flows. Ms. Inman told a news conference this month Mr. Rathke still exercises power over CCI and Acorn against the board's wishes. Bertha Lewis, the interim head of Acorn, told me Mr. Rathke has no ties to Acorn and that the dissident board members were "obsessed" and "confused."

According to public records, the IRS filed three tax liens totaling almost $1 million against Acorn this spring. Also this spring, CCI was paid $832,000 by the Obama campaign for get-out-the-vote efforts in key primary states. In filings with the Federal Election Commission, the Obama campaign listed the payments as "staging, sound, lighting," only correcting the filings after the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review revealed their true nature.

"Acorn needs a full forensic audit," Ms. MonCrief says, though she doesn't think that's likely. "Everyone wants to paper things over until later," she says. "But it may be too late to reform Acorn then." She strongly supports Barack Obama and hopes his allies can be helpful in cleaning up the group "after the heat of the election is gone."

Acorn's Mr. Kettering says the GOP lawsuit "is designed to suppress legitimate voters," and he says Ms. MonCrief isn't credible, given that she was fired for cause. Ms. MonCrief admits that she left after she began paying back some $3,000 in personal expenses she charged on an Acorn credit card. "I was very sorry, and I was paying it back," she says, but "suddenly Acorn decided that . . . I had to go. Since then I have gotten warnings to 'back off' from people at Acorn."

Acorn insists it operates with strict quality controls, turning in, as required by law, all registration forms "even if the name on them was Donald Duck," as Wade Rathke told me two years ago. Acorn whistleblowers tell a different story.

"There's no quality control on purpose, no checks and balances," says Nate Toler, who worked until 2006 as the head organizer of an Acorn campaign against Wal-Mart in California. And Ms. MonCrief says it is longstanding practice to blame bogus registrations on lower-level employees who then often face criminal charges, a practice she says Acorn internally calls "throwing folks under the bus."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 12:33 AM

WSJ:

Acorn's former Las Vegas, Nev., field director, Christopher Edwards, agreed to testify against the group in a case in which Las Vegas election officials say 48% of the voter registration forms the group turned in were "clearly fraudulent." Acorn itself is charged with 13 counts of illegally using a quota system to compensate workers in an effort to boost the number of registrations.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 12:23 AM

WSJ:

Under the Community Reinvestment Act (itself a causal factor in the subprime mortgage debacle that has cost us all so dearly), there is a procedure for protesting, and significantly delaying, bank merger and branching applications if the parties involved have not "adequately" served the needs of the local community.

Particularly after the passage of interstate banking laws in the mid-80s, Acorn and other activist groups seized on this process as a way to extract money from banks. Acorn would protest applications, thereby significantly delaying regulatory action, unless the banks committed to fund targeted loan pools, "education" efforts conducted by Acorn, "consulting" contracts and grants to Acorn, etc. The banks had compelling business reasons to close the deals quickly. Bank regulators, especially the Fed, for political reasons shamelessly pressed the banks hard to settle with Acorn, et al., and the banks ponied up millions.

I did mergers and acquisitions for a regional bank and experienced Acorn's thuggish "negotiating" tactics and bad faith firsthand.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 12:11 AM

AP:

An internal review by the board of directors of the community organization ACORN determined that the amount allegedly embezzled from the community organization was $5 million, well more than the previously reported amount of nearly $1 million, according to a new subpoena in an investigation by Louisiana Attorney General Buddy Caldwell.

The subpoena says, "It is still unclear if some of the monies embezzled are from state, federal or private funds," according to The (New Orleans) Times-Picayune.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 10:10 PM

In a way it's too bad about that Rathke character. He had a lot of talent and he just couldn't keep things going in a positive direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:40 PM

NPR:

    The Ford Foundation gave almost $2 million to ACORN in recent years, but says it has suspended ACORN funding because of concerns about inadequate financial controls.

    The Marguerite Casey Foundation gave ACORN over $4 million dollars. But spokeswoman Kathleen Baca says the grants are not being renewed.

    The Annie E. Casey Foundation, the Charles Stewart Mott Foundation, Bank of America and JP Morgan also say they've ceased making grants to ACORN and its affiliates.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:36 PM

Washington Post:

Project Vote, one of the most recognized organizations in the ACORN family, took in $8.6 million in 2006 but paid more than 60 percent of that -- $5.4 million -- to two groups then controlled by Rathke. About $4.6 million went to ACORN for "contractual and campaign services" and $779,000 went to Citizens Consulting Inc., which charged ACORN affiliates on a percentage basis for bookkeeping services.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 12:47 AM

Baltimore City Paper:

Sandra Stewart wanted to be paid for the work she'd done. After graduating from Goucher College in May, Stewart followed a professor's advice in obtaining a position, starting on May 22 as a $250-per-week intern at the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), a national social-justice group with a Maryland chapter based in Baltimore. On July 15 she wrote to City Paper, stating that she had left the job because "up until this morning it had been eight weeks exactly that I had not received any payment for my work." That day she had received a $500 check from ACORN, she explained, but was still awaiting payment for the remaining six weeks of service.

It turns out that Stewart wasn't the only one looking for overdue payments from ACORN. At the time a City Paper inquiry began, the organization faced a Baltimore City tax-sale lien on its Charles Village property, a court judgment in Prince George's County for failure to pay a landlord for rented office space, and complaints from several other ex-employees about paycheck problems. By ACORN's own admission that it has been having trouble administering payments to many part-time voter-registration workers it recently hired.

"I find it completely ironic that an organization that fights for social justice" has trouble paying its workers, Stewart wrote.

Since arriving here in 1999, ACORN has organized efforts in Baltimore on several fronts, including downsizing the Baltimore City Council, supporting fair and safe housing for the poor, and pushing for a "living wage" for workers. Stewart's complaint that ACORN wasn't dealing fairly with its own employees, however, had not previously been brought to public attention. By July 21, several days after City Paper had first contacted ACORN about Stewart's complaint, the ex-intern had been paid in full.

At first, Stewart's former bosses-ACORN director Mitchell Klein and Baltimore County coordinator Michelle Moore-blamed the situation on Stewart, saying she failed to submit necessary paperwork. But by July 21, they were accepting fault for not paying Stewart in a timely fashion: "What happened to Sandi was bad," Klein says apologetically.

After hearing of Stewart's complaint, City Paper searched the courts to see if ACORN was having problems making other payments. It was.

On June 22, a nearly $7,000 court judgment was entered against the group in favor of Bradco Realty, the owner of office space ACORN had been renting in Hyattsville.

"They were not paying us," explains Bradco principal Michael Weinberger. "And we got tired of writing letters and making phone calls. Nobody even answered the phone. So we turned it over to a local attorney."

On July 18, just as City PaperUapproached ACORN about the problem, the group paid the $7,000. Klein disputes Weinberger's version of events, asserting that ACORN believed Bradco was overcharging them. "We lost," Klein says. "And now we're paying."

On June 30, another court action was filed against an ACORN affiliate, Baltimore Organizing and Support Center Inc. Short Line 2005 LLC filed a foreclosure lawsuit in Baltimore Circuit Court against the group, setting in motion a process that could have ended with Short Line 2005 owning ACORN's building at 16 W. 25th St. Information obtained from the city's Finance Department revealed that the support center had not paid real estate taxes, water bills, and other city-administered fees since it purchased the property in 2004. As a result, the city's lien against the support center was sold at tax sale to Short Line 2005 in May 2005, and Short Line filed the suit in order to exercise its right to collect the money the center owed.

"This is the first time I'm hearing about this," Klein stated when asked about the lawsuit on July 19. Later, Maryland ACORN's board chair, the Rev. Gloria Swieringa, thanked City Paper "for pointing out a tremendously erroneous situation that had not been brought to our attention." The same day, ACORN cut a check for more than $18,000 to settle the matter.

At first, Klein stated that the group's failure to keep current on its taxes and other city bills was due to Hurricane Katrina's disastrous impact last fall on ACORN's national offices in New Orleans, where many of the state chapters' finances are administered. However, after researching the matter, Klein learned that in fact the payments had not been made because the bills had been sent to the group's old office at 825 Park Ave., Baltimore Organizing and Support Center's address of record.

After Stewart leveled her complaint about having a hard time getting paid by ACORN, three other ex-employees who recently left their jobs came forward, recalling similar problems. One, a former community organizer who claims ACORN still owes reimbursement money to him, asked to remain anonymous because the group requires workers to sign a statement that they won't talk to the press. (Klein confirms that ACORN's employees are to have "no contact with the media without specific prior approval from a supervisor.") The ex-employee did not want to risk his anticipated repayment by being quoted by name in an article.

"I did have to wait a number of weeks for my paycheck," the ex-organizer says. "And I left because I decided I would no longer put up with their stuff. It seems to be a pretty routine thing." He adds that "people have been getting angry with them for not getting paid."

"I had problems getting paid," Zuri Barnes, 28, also claims. The former community organizer worked for ACORN for seven months, he says, and was owed money after he quit recently. (Klein asserts that Barnes did not properly submit paperwork to get paid.) "I eventually got paid after numerous phone calls and going in and confronting my former boss," he recalls. "I've heard cases of people who are still waiting to get paid. It's a major issue, and it all comes down to administration. And this is a group that does community organizing, and yet it is so disorganized."

Khary Williams, a 24-year-old former ACORN community organizer, echoes the complaints. "I got my money," he says. "It was just very late. I left because I felt like I needed a job where, when it's payday, I get paid."

Klein admits that ACORN "is not perfect," adding that its payroll problems were exacerbated recently when the group ratcheted up its staff with a lot of part-time workers who are registering voters around the state.

"People get paid regularly here, but there are paperwork problems, and it is not the best system in the world," he says. "Obviously, we're not trying to screw people over-we want people to get paid on time. But there are some problems. We try to do the best we can."

Klein, however, expresses surprise about complaints from former community organizers, because they filled salaried positions in a different pay class from the part-time voter-registration workers.

"The voter-reg stuff, sure, we've had some problems there," he says. "But I know that our community organizers get paid. Generally, our payroll does run on a regular basis. Maybe one or two days late, but that's rare."

Asked if he believes the publicity about these problems will lead to more complaints to City Paper about payroll problems, Klein says it will.

"I guarantee it," he predicts. "Everyone's going to complain. But there are a lot of people who like working for us."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 12:35 AM

Catholic Bishops roll ACORN under da bus:

Catholic News Service: WASHINGTON (CNS) -- The Catholic Campaign for Human Development suspended funding a nationwide community organizing group after it was disclosed June 2 that nearly $1 million had been embezzled.

Funding was suspended for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, popularly known as ACORN, because of the financial irregularities, said Ralph McCloud, executive director of CCHD, the U.S. bishops' domestic anti-poverty and social justice program.

"We're not funding them at any level," McCloud told Catholic News Service Oct. 15.

The suspension covers all 40 ACORN affiliates nationwide that had been approved for $1.13 million in grants for the funding cycle that started July 1, 2008.

McCloud said the suspension came soon after his office learned that ACORN disclosed that Dale Rathke, the brother of ACORN founder Wade Rathke, had embezzled nearly $1 million from the organization and its affiliates in 1999 and 2000. Dale Rathke stepped down from his position with the organization in June when the matter became public; no charges were filed against him. Wade Rathke stepped down as the group's lead organizer at the same time but remains chief organizer for ACORN International LLC.

CCHD has hired specialists in forensic accounting to investigate whether any of its grant funding has been misappropriated, McCloud added.

Since revealing its financial troubles, the organization has come under intense scrutiny because of its voter registration practices. In several states voter registration forms have been found to include nonexistent or dead people. Some registrants have told elections officials they completed multiple cards at the urging of ACORN canvassers who claimed they would be fired if they did not meet a daily quota for signing up new voters.

McCloud released information showing that CCHD funded more than 320 ACORN projects with grants totaling more than $7.3 million during the last 10 years. He said the community organization also had received funds since early in CCHD's history.

CCHD's Web site reveals the campaign gave about $1.11 million to 40 ACORN affiliates in 2007 and $1.17 million to 45 affiliates in 2006.

Over the years, some of the funds undoubtedly were used for voter registration drives, McCloud said.

"It probably was," he told CNS. "But by the same token, we didn't find any voter registration irregularities, the allegations we are finding now."

McCloud also said that CCHD guidelines require that organizations in line for funding "go through a great deal of scrutiny."

Prior to the awarding of grants, applications from local organizations are vetted at the diocesan level by a funding committee, endorsed by the local bishop, and then scrutinized by the national CCHD staff and a committee of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, McCloud explained.

"The whole idea is making sure that the efforts of the groups we fund are working in nonpartisan efforts and focusing on the kind of work that we would like for them to do," McCloud said.

The organization has not returned several calls from CNS seeking comment about the suspension of funding.

However, ACORN officials are defending the organization's voter registration practices. During an Oct. 14 press conference, spokesman Patrick Whelan acknowledged that some of the organizations 13,000 canvassers submitted duplicate or false registrations, but said they represented a tiny fraction of the 1.3 million new voters signed up for the Nov. 4 election. He said the organization itself discovered many of the problem registrations.

Traditionally drawn to causes usually backed by Democrats, the 38-year-old organization has conducted organizing campaigns in low- and moderate-income communities on issues such as unemployment, affordable housing, predatory lending, health care, minimum wage and living wage, and immigration. ACORN also has conducted voter registration drives throughout its history by hiring canvassers to go door to door and to visit public sites where people gather.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 12:12 AM

"Living Wage" Horseshit.

The National Labor Relations Board of the United States of America ruled that ACORN violated labor law by intimidating and unfairly laying off three employees who were trying to improve their working conditions and supported the IWW union organizing effort. Below we quote the NLRB's ruling on the case. Also at the bottom of the page we include the link to the NLRB website including the full text of the ruling, which gives the details of the case and we encourage you to read.

Conclusions of Law:

    * 1) By interrogating employees about their union activities, by informing employees that other employees have been discharged because of the Union, by threatening employees that selecting the Union to represent them will be futile, and by threatening employees with discharge, Respondent [ACORN] has violated Section 8(a)(1) of the Act.

    * 2) By laying off Gigi Nevils, Sarah Stephens, and Erin Howley, Respondent [ACORN] has violated Section 8(a)(3) and (1) of the Act.

    * 3) The violations set forth above are unfair labor practices affecting commerce within the meaning of the Act."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:08 PM

I looked it up. No charges were filed against him and he was never prosecuted. This is how ACORN spends the public's money, and that of their donors.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 05:58 PM

...Is this Acorn Stairlifts of Steeton, West Yorkshire? I was made redundant from there back in February. The guy who owns the company is a TWAT!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:57 PM

But does anyone know if he was every prosecuted?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:57 PM

...and even though one of its employees did embezzle (it was one employee and not the organization itself who did that), the organization as a whole has helped a hell of a lot of people over the years, and continues to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM

ACORN is responsible, along with the SEIU, for helping to get "Living Wage" amendments enacted in several cities in the US. That's one of the reasons the Republicans have been trying for years to get rid of ACORN. They have been fighting for living wages.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:17 PM

Was Rathke ever prosecuted for the theft?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 11:06 AM

Washington post:

Internal ACORN documents show an organization in turmoil as last year's presidential election approached, with a board torn over how to handle embezzlement by the founder's brother and growing concern that donor money and pension funds had been plundered in the insider scheme.

Minutes from a meeting ACORN held in Los Angeles last summer reveal a group then on the brink of financial collapse. "Currently owe over $800k to IRS," the minutes note. "Haven't paid medical bills of over $300k. We are essentially 'broke' nationally and lots of offices are struggling."
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Some top ACORN officials tried to shield the scheme, which involved Dale Rathke, the brother of ACORN founder Wade Rathke. "Leadership has no faith in staff. Wade betrayed them," the minutes said.

The documents present a troubling picture of one of the nation's leading social justice advocacy groups, with more than 400,000 members, offices in 75 cities and an expanding international presence.

ACORN, or Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, was founded in 1970 and is supported in part by government grants. It has forged relationships with banks, federal and state agencies, and nonprofit groups that have made it a major force in helping low-income families buy homes and in bringing marginalized voters to the polls. The ACORN political action committee endorsed Barack Obama in February 2008.

ACORN said in a statement Saturday that it has taken "decisive action" to correct problems detailed in the documents, which it said were stolen and leaked to investigators for a House oversight committee. Spokesman Brian Kettenring said ACORN has reorganized, severed its connections to Wade Rathke and "been made whole relative to the monies stolen in 1999-2000." He also said that "arrangements have been or are being made to correct all tax delinquencies."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: curmudgeon
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 10:36 AM

Still beating the dead horse?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 10:12 AM

"They do a hell of a lot of good for the disenfranchised."

Reality: Family members embezzle money intended to help the poor:

NYT:

A whistle-blower forced Acorn to disclose the embezzlement, which involved the brother of the organization's founder, Wade Rathke.

The brother, Dale Rathke, embezzled nearly $1 million from Acorn and affiliated charitable organizations in 1999 and 2000, Acorn officials said, but a small group of executives decided to keep the information from almost all of the group's board members and not to alert law enforcement.

Dale Rathke remained on Acorn's payroll until a month ago, when disclosure of his theft by foundations and other donors forced the organization to dismiss him.

"We thought it best at the time to protect the organization, as well as to get the funds back into the organization, to deal with it in-house," said Maude Hurd, president of Acorn. "It was a judgment call at the time, and looking back, people can agree or disagree with it, but we did what we thought was right."

The amount Dale Rathke embezzled, $948,607.50, was carried as a loan on the books of Citizens Consulting Inc., which provides bookkeeping, accounting and other financial management services to Acorn and many of its affiliated entities.

Wade Rathke said the organization had signed a restitution agreement with his brother in which his family agreed to repay the amount embezzled in exchange for confidentiality.

Wade Rathke stepped down as Acorn's chief organizer on June 2, the same day his brother left, but he remains chief organizer for Acorn International L.L.C.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: curmudgeon
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 10:12 AM

Sawzaw's Source (Wikipedia):

EPI has has been widely quoted in news stories regarding minimum wage issues, and although a few of those stories have correctly described it as a "think tank financed by business," most stories fail to provide any identification that would enable readers to identify the vested interests behind its pronouncements. Instead, it is usually described exactly the way it describes itself, as a "non-profit research organization dedicated to studying public policy issues surrounding employment growth" that "focuses on issues that affect entry-level employment." In reality, EPI's mission is to keep the minimum wage low so Berman's clients can continue to pay their workers as little as possible.

EPI also owns the internet domain names to MinimumWage.com and LivingWage.com, a website that attempts to portray the idea of a living wage for workers as some kind of insidious conspiracy. "Living wage activists want nothing less than a national livingwage," it warns (as though there is something wrong with paying employees enough that they can afford to eat and pay rent).

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:54 AM

"getting paid a living wage."Utter BullshiT

Employment Policies Institute:

"Despite its ardent support of higher wages and union membership for all workers, ACORN has made repeated attempts to block the unionization of its own work force while paying below-minimum-wage salaries to its employees. In addition to the extensive union-busting detailed by the National Labor Relations Board, ACORN unsuccessfully sued the State of California to be exempted from the minimum wage."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:46 AM

New York rolls Acorn under da bus:

AP:

New York Gov. David Paterson has ordered state agencies to examine contracts with ACORN and place holds on them in the meantime.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:06 PM

ACORN already has the networks and staff and basic expertise....seems to me it would be better to HELP them, if they are stretched thin, rather than shutting them down.

But that isn't the real issue, is it? The basic issue is: what they are doing, when they do it well and legally and carefully, automatically helps Democrats more than Republicans. Getting them to fail is a goal for certain parties, even if the good done by ACORN falls in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:28 PM

No they don't. Not yet. We still don't know what really happened in those offices because we've only seen highly edited videos.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:15 PM

They tell us something about the training the people staffing the various offices though.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:54 PM

They do a hell of a lot of good for the disenfranchised. They help people with home ownership, voting, and getting paid a living wage. Those videos don't tell us a thing about the quality of the service that ACORN provides.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:28 PM

To advocate for someone probably won't do the person any good unless the advocate can do something constructive. If they are helping people fill out tax returns, for instance, they should be trained in tax law and have some kind of credentials to demonstrate they know what they are doing. I don't mean they need to be CPA's but they should have something.

             The people in the recent video-tapes really didn't appear to me to have any idea what they were talking about. It gave the impression that people running ACORN offices everwhere were in the same boat.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 02:32 PM

I think they should continue to advocate for workers and disenfranchised voters. If they have too much on their plate, then they need to spend less time having to contend with the massively funded and organized smear campaign that is being waged against them so that disadvantaged people won't have anyone to advocate for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 02:25 PM

It just seems to me like ACORN was trying to do too many different kinds of things and they didn't have enough professional staff to do it. I think they would be better served if they would get back to the business of trying to help poor people find housing instead of doing all of these other things that stretches them so thin.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:44 PM

So let us know if they get any convictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 10:55 AM

LA Times:

Former ACORN worker details blackjack voter registration bonuses
A former field director testifies about extra payments to Las Vegas canvassers for bringing in 21 new registration cards in a day.
   
Reporting from Las Vegas - In the summer of 2008, with presidential contenders battling fiercely over the swing state of Nevada, Christopher Edwards was racing to register voters.

As the field director of ACORN's Las Vegas office, he brainstormed a way to motivate meagerly paid canvassers: If they turned in 21 or more registration cards in a day, they were each given a $5 bonus.

"Hey, it's Las Vegas," Edwards testified Tuesday. "It's blackjack." But Edwards' "blackjack bonuses," which he bragged about to other ACORN offices, broke the law, state prosecutors say. Nevada bars quotas or cash incentives in voter sign-up efforts: Officials fear they could lead to false registrations.

On Tuesday, a judge began considering whether Edwards' former supervisor, Amy Busefink, and the Assn. of Community Organizations for Reform Now will stand trial on 13 low-level felony charges of compensation for registration of voters. The evidentiary hearing will resume this morning.

Edwards, a former union organizer who once worked for former Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean, has pleaded guilty to two misdemeanor counts. He took the stand Tuesday as the prosecution's star witness. "No one in ACORN knew this was illegal," he told Justice of the Peace William D. Jansen.

In recent weeks, ACORN, a longtime target of Republican ire, has been battered by secretly recorded videos from other states that appear to show ACORN staffers advising two conservative activists -- who were posing as a pimp and a prostitute -- on tax evasion, human smuggling and child prostitution.

The IRS, Census Bureau and Bank of America have severed ties with ACORN, and Congress has voted to slash its federal funding. The controversies have heightened the attention paid to the Nevada case.

Clare Crawford, ACORN's deputy political director, called the charges here "political grandstanding," though Nevada's secretary of state and attorney general are Democrats. Their investigation began in 2008, after Clark County officials complained that some registration forms issued to ACORN had come back fraudulent -- in one instance, someone had signed up much of the Dallas Cowboys' starting lineup.

Edwards, who said he was under pressure to boost the number of voter registration forms collected, oversaw as many as eight political organizers and their teams of canvassers. If canvassers, who made $8 an hour, turned in fewer than 20 registration cards a day, their jobs were at risk.

"I seen a lot of people getting laid off," testified Dwain Dennie, an ACORN canvasser who worked outside a welfare office.

Edwards thought up the blackjack program as a response to canvassers who had falsified time cards or generally slacked off, he testified. It was an informal plan, announced on a huge office dry-erase board, but not in e-mails or memos -- a fact that drew some derision from Jansen.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 10:52 AM

BofA rolls ACORN under da bus:

NEW YORK (CNN):

Bank of America pulls ACORN funding

Troubled community organizing group ACORN suffered another setback on Monday, when Bank of America announced it is pulling its funding of ACORN Housing.
In a statement, Bank of America said that is it "suspending current commitments to ACORN Housing and will not enter into any further agreements with ACORN or any of its affiliates"

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 10:37 AM

Irs rolls ACORN under da bus:

New York Times:

On Wednesday, the Internal Revenue Service announced that it would no longer include Acorn in a groups approved to offer free tax preparation.

"It is absolutely critical that taxpayers have trust in our Volunteer Income Tax Assistance program partners," said a statement from the agency. "In light of recent events, the I.R.S. has decided to terminate its relationship with Acorn."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 05:13 PM

Great! Those people shouldn't be in there anyway.

            Sometime when you have a lot of time on yours hands, I'll tell you about my theory of promoting and economic collapse in Afghanistan by legalizing opiates in the West.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 03:01 PM

I think they're going to have to let a lot of people in prison on drug charges go free if they're going to have room for all of the people who knowingly employ illegal immigrants in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 01:22 PM

Yes, absolutely! If they know they're illegal, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 09:55 AM

Along with all of the well off people who employ them as nannies and gardeners?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:31 AM

SEIU lets illegal aliens join the union. They ought to be thrown in jail for just that.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 01:37 AM

So now we know why the SEIU is being targeted by the corporatist smear machine. Both ACORN and SEIU worked on getting "living wage ordinances" passed in many cities around the country. Those bad, bad people, working to try to help hard working people get paid a living wage. Ohhhhhh, that just makes my blood boil!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#33080922

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:38 PM

So, you reply by asking ME to defend a spurious accusation? My...sorta proves something.

"You mean like what the liberals did the last 6 years of the Bush administration???

Oh, that's right- if liberals do it, it is ok. It is only when conservatives do something that it is wrong... "

---------------------------------------------------------------------
So, you reply by asking ME to defend a spurious accusation?
I have practically BEGGED you, bruce, to get away from that line of ersatz 'reasoning'.

ONE...that is NOT what liberals did to the Bushites. It was very different, both in style & substance. You really cannot tell the difference between documenting the lies & illegal stuff by Bush, Cheney, John Yoo and cronies...and the smears and idiocy of Limbaugh, Beck, various S. Carolina & Minnesota & Oklahoma congress folk, and uncounted Teabaggers? *tsk*

TWO...it sounds as if you are, in fact, admitting that IS "the plan", and defending it with a trumped up, "Mommie...he hit me first!" line.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:48 PM

And there is the perpetual argument of last resort -
"I'm rubber you're glue, nyah, nyah."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:37 PM

"So... the plan is to make 'reports' and accusations and especially insinuations so numerous...whether they have any real substance or not... that the 'supporters' can get little done except replying and clarifying?
"

You mean like what the liberals did the last 6 years of the Bush administration???

Oh, that's right- if liberals do it, it is ok. It is only when conservatives do something that it is wrong...

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:23 PM

". If the reports were false, one might think the supporters would actually try to prove the FACTS, rather than attack the reporters."

So... the plan is to make 'reports' and accusations and especially insinuations so numerous...whether they have any real substance or not... that the 'supporters' can get little done except replying and clarifying?
It makes little difference what is picked as a topic; just keep saying it, no matter WHAT replies and counters are offered.

"Obama won't provide his birth certificate!"

       "But he has...it is visible online!"

"Why WON'T he provide his birth certificate?"

    "He did...and there are newspaper records from that date."

"We see they have faked BOTH his birth certificate AND newspaper records!"

    "No they didn't...'birthers' have provided 2 or 3 fake birth    certificates from Kenya."

"What an elaborate scheme to avoid providing his birth certificate!"


...... and so it goes, on 20 different topics....ACORN, health care, economy..... It doesn't have to make sense, it just has to make lot of noise & headlines and create an 'aura' of distrust.


We shall see how it plays out next year......some say Republicans are shooting themselves in the foot with this 'strategy'.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:37 AM

ACORN did not hire them specifically for the purpose of rigging the election. If they had, there would have been actual fraudulent votes cast by people who were registered fraudulently instead of what actually happened, which was that ACORN prevented any of those registrations resulting in a fraudulent vote by flagging them and turning them in to the authorities.

The person making these really ridiculous accusations is insulting their own intelligence by making them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:21 AM

But isn't!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:19 AM

Isn't necesaarily 'simple opinion'. Could simply be bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:03 AM

If it is "news", let's have the sourcing. Otherwise it is a simple opinion. If it is founded, let's have the documentation.
If you want so badly to discuss facts, please present them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:33 AM

Yes, it's my opinion, but not unfounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:33 AM

Typical attack on the bearer of news someone does not want to believe. If the reports were false, one might think the supporters would actually try to prove the FACTS, rather than attack the reporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:27 AM

Exactly. So that is your personal, unfounded accusation. I thought so.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:18 AM

TIA - You know they're not going to admit it, so there is no documentation, but it's kind of weird how you keep bringing Fox News into things. Some people are capable of thinking for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:36 AM

"ACORN hired those people for the specific purpose of trying to rig the election."
Documentation please.
Until then, you are simply parroting FOX News ranting.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:50 AM

ACORN hired those people for the specific purpose of trying to rig the election. The people who hired the people should be in jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:21 AM

More on the Bush Justice Department malfeasance around the subject of ACORN, and the politicising of the Justice Department under Bush in order to use ACORN as a wedge issue in the '08 election...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#33064799

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 10:24 PM

Oh yeah... now Mike Huckabee is saying that the United Nations is the "international version of ACORN" and should have jackhammers taken to it... and I thought he was one of the few Republicans who were taking it easy and not resorting to off-the-wall idiocy.

(gotta get the exact quotes)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 10:20 PM

Riggo...sometimes you just go off the deep end with crazy comments.

"If I hire somebody to murder my wife, the police arrest and prosecute the assassin. But they also arrest and prosecute me for hiring the the killer in the first place."

Yeah...*IF* I hire him to kill my wife. ACORN never 'perpetrated' that stupid behavior by a few employees. In fact, if FOX and those 2 silly actors hadn't gone fishing, there would have been no story.

The only way I read all this is that you WANT to see ACORN smeared and will buy into any asinine set of assertions that pretend to muddy them.

That puts you right out there with birthers and deathers and all the other kooky fools who can't do anything BUT throw mud these days.


(gee---do I sound pissed off? Me...ol' voice of reason Bill? .......yeah, I guess so...)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 10:03 PM

That's not the way it works with the kind of crime that was committed in this case. The crime that was committed was that the employees attempted to swindle their employers by doing something other than registering people while they were getting paid to actually register people. That's the same crime as, for instance, if I took money from an employer to conduct a survey and instead of actually conducting the survey, I made up the information and submitted it to my employer. In both cases, it is the employer who is the victim. That's why ACORN management is not being prosecuted for the crime of falsifying voter registrations.

If ACORN was considered responsible for this behavior by the legal system, they would be prosecuted for it. They are not being prosecuted for it, and they will not be prosecuted for it, because they did everything they were required to do under the law. They were responsible for making sure that their screening system detected the falsified registrations, which it did do, and they were to flag the falsified registrations and turn them over to the authorities. They did all of this, exactly the way they were required to do by law. So we will not see ACORN prosecuted for the actions of their employees, because it was the employees who broke the law, and not ACORN management.

That's just the facts. People can continue to lie about it and ignore these facts if they want, but that won't make the lies any more true.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 09:51 PM

Here's the way the courts see it. If I hire somebody to murder my wife, the police arrest and prosecute the assassin. But they also arrest and prosecute me for hiring the the killer in the first place. In fact, I'll probably do more time than he will.
          ACORN is more guilty that their employees.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 09:20 PM

So every organization or company that is swindled by its employees is guilty of and responsible for their crimes? That's not the way the courts see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 09:14 PM

I see- like all the crooks that worked for the Bush Administration.
I guess Georgie's guilty of War Crimes after all, then, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 09:04 PM

They worked for ACORN. ACORN was responsible for their actions. ACORN hired them. ACORN was the perpetrator.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 08:57 PM

The crooks who were making up the false registrations were defrauding their employer, ACORN. ACORN was the victim in that crime, not the perpetrator of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 07:10 PM

Yes, it does seem to be the entire group. All of those crooks who were making up the false voter registrations and now this. It looks like "crime" is what they teach there.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 05:10 PM

No..it does NOT 'seem to be the entire group'. It only seems that way to those who Gerrymander both their sources and their thought processes!

Th Bank of America has no better 'evidence' than anyone else....like those conservative governors who are proclaiming they are 'cutting off funding' which ACORN was not receiving anyway.
   They are just taking what seems to them a safe public stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 05:00 PM

In this case, it seems to be the entire group. Now we read where the Bank of America is trying to sever relationships with ACORN. These guys are the essence of sleaze.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 04:47 PM

TIA's link is quite instructive, as are Carol C's comments on what has actually happened.

As to ACORN not being 'non-partisan'...*sigh*... it is perfectly possible to be non-partisan and still have Republican/conservative groups concerned that ACORN's activities in getting out minority voters and helping register folks who had not been voting was NOT in their (Republican) interest!
Of course what ACORN does is likely to help Democratic interests more than Republicans...at least as long as Republicans are more concerned about 'business' than about fairness and voting rights for ALL demographic groups.

When 'winning at all cost' becomes your Mantra, some pretty sleazy tactics suddenly seem 'reasonable'

If you look hard enough at ANY group, you can find individuals whose behavior is questionable. That is hardly evidence that such behavior is either group policy or condoned by management. Why is this so hard to grasp?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 04:47 PM

...from the article just mentioned:


"One needn't be a mathematician to imagine what a national health care option might mean to a union in search of new dues-paying recruits. SEIU, which has promised "to fight tooth and nail" for a public option, is demonstrably persuasive.

In Illinois, former Gov. Blagojevich (thank you for your patience) helped position the SEIU so that it could unionize health care workers when he signed an executive order allowing collective bargaining. SEIU showed its appreciation in advance by becoming Blagojevich's largest contributor, handing over $1.8 million for his two gubernatorial campaigns.

Now that's community organization."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 04:24 PM

Here are some more charges that are now being levelled at ACORN!


http://www.daytondailynews.com/opinion/columnists/kathleen-parker-acorn-service-union-are-hand-and-glove-317622.html?cxtype=ynews_rss

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 10:29 AM

Me above...sorry

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 10:29 AM

The TRUTH about ACORN is here:.

Betcha FOX is not mentioning the link between ACORN and Prosecutor-Gate.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 12:39 PM

"What?!?!?!?.... Fox not representing the corporate interests???"

             No, Bobert, I didn't say Fox didn't represent corporate interests, they like all the others, are selling things. They are just selling different things, or are selling them to different people. That's why their point of view is slightly different.

             But the one subject they all seem to agree on is Israel -- Fox, MSNBC, all of them. Once you start trying to figure out why that is, you might be on to something.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 12:09 PM

That story is from almost a week ago. It's not breaking news. That happened when everyone else was jumping without looking last week. I won't be surprised if the governor of (my beloved home state of) Rhode Island doesn't bother to put out any press releases if the investigation doesn't turn up anything wrong.

Interestingly, a lot of the people who are freezing funding to ACORN never provided any funding to begin with, including the bill onto which the Congress tacked the "Defund Acorn" amendment.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 10:52 AM

Gov. Carcieri orders RI ACORN probe

Wants immediate halt of state funding to group

Updated: Friday, 18 Sep 2009, 5:48 PM EDT
Published : Friday, 18 Sep 2009, 5:47 PM EDT
        Nancy Krause

PROVIDENCE, R.I. (WPRI) - Gov. Donald Carcieri has ordered all state departments and agencies to freeze any payments being made directly to the Rhode Island chapter of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) or indirectly to any of its affiliates.

The governor's order comes as ACORN is facing national scrutiny. Hidden-camera video shot at four separate ACORN offices across the country show ACORN employees giving a fake pimp and prostitute advice how to buy a home for their illegal sex business and how lie on tax forms to account for the woman's income.

The fake pimp and prostitute even told one of the workers they were planning to bring in 12 underage girls from El Salvador to work in the home.

"It is unconscionable for a single dime of taxpayer money be spent to support an organization that is engaged in this type of activity," said Governor Carcieri. "I am ordering a review of each state department, agency, and quasi-public agency to determine if ACORN is benefitting from taxpayer dollars."

Carcieri is not alone. Thursday, the U.S. House of Representatives voted to deny all federal funding for ACORN nationally. The U.S. Senate approved a similar resolution earlier in the week. Rhode Island's Congressional delegation, with the exception of Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse , voted in favor of freezing ACORN funds.

 ACORN has ordered all of its local branches, including the one in Providence , to close for a month while it conducts an internal investigation into the matter. Four ACORN employees involved in the hidden-camera investigation have been fired.

In addition to freezing funding, Gov. Carcieri has asked the state Board of Elections to review the legal status of the ACORN-RI political action committee.

"If ACORN-RI has used either federal or state taxpayer dollars to support its political agenda, this activity must stop, and the Board of Elections must take appropriate legal actions against the organization."
 


[well, if ACORN is "non-partisan", so was SNCC, SDS, the Black Panthers and the Weather Underground]

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 09:11 AM

What?!?!?!?.... Fox not representing the corporate interests???

Beam me up, there are no sane people left here, Scotty...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 08:46 AM

That's true, they all propagandize, and all of the networks have been promoting the same lies about ACORN as FOX has. But FOX has been driving this particular set of lies, and therein lies the difference for the purpose of this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 07:27 AM

Actually, what you had before Fox news was a propaganda machine run by corporations to get people to do the many dumb things they were told to do. Now, with Fox, you have another view. Some folks just liked the monopoly better.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 06:29 PM

Which charge, the one about FOX news lying and propagandizing, or the one about people still supporting that organization?

If it's the first, I've already provided credible documentation right here in this thread, and I didn't use any "leftist blogs". If it's the second, I have no evidence of that whatever. Perhaps I'm wrong, and people no longer support FOX.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: fumblefingers
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 06:24 PM

CarolC "However, that one can be flipped. It's interesting to see, considering how may times FOX News has been caught lying and propagandizing, how many people still support that organization."

Would you please supply credible* documentation to support that charge.

* That doesn't include The Daily Kos, Huffington or other leftist blogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 10:07 AM

Great, defund DynCorp too. Why should we fund any of these bogus organizations with taxpayer dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 11:45 PM

More good stuff here, on the unconstitutionality of the Defund ACORN act. In order to make it legal, they're going to have to apply it to any group that has violated any of the things they say ACORN has violated. Interesting to see the kinds of groups who might be de-funded if they decide to make the act constitutional. Lots of defense contractors in that one.

DynCorp employees, for instance, were found to be actually participating in a child sex slave ring in Bosnia.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 09:29 PM

And peace from ACORN, the smallest minds in the country!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: sing4peace
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 06:46 PM

Nice to meet you too Carol.

We Rhode Islanders have a statue of "the Independent Man" on top of our Statehouse. (the original plan was for a female figure - as we say here in RI "go figure".) Our state motto is Hope.

We all benefit when we stop to listen and think for ourselves. Question everything I say.

From where I sit, there is a classic "divide and conquer" ploy being used against the people of our country at this time. It's been done in our name elsewhere for so very long. Now it is on our turf.

Like it or not, believe it or not, we really ARE in the same boat. As the seas continue to rise and the winds begin to howl, we'd better start figuring out how to row together
or we're all going down.

Peace to you from the smallest town in the smallest county in the smallest state,

Joyce

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 05:17 PM

It's not always fun being the lone voice in the wilderness, but it's always very gratifying when people start waking up...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/33013202#33013202

Manipulating the Public Agenda: Why ACORN Was in the News and What the News Got Wrong

http://departments.oxy.edu/uepi/acornstudy/

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:30 PM

(BTW, nice to bump into a fellow Rhode Islander... I'm originally from Warwick [Buttonwoods Bay], myself.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:29 PM

It would be nice if everyone would wait until we have gotten to the truth of things before calling for ACORN to be gotten rid of. But that's just not happening. Probably because those very people don't really want the truth to be revealed. It might prove them wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: sing4peace
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:14 PM

Some of us here in Rhode Island thought it pretty ironic that after Sean Hannity was bashing ACORN for allegations of criminal activity while receiving government funds - FOX news had the ex-mayor of Providence - Mr. Vincent "Buddy" Cianci as a "Great American" guest.

Mr. Cianci was convicted and sent to prison for his part in a corruption/extortion racket while he was receiving government funds as the sitting mayor of Providence. He was convicted on a prior occasion for having arranged for his chauffeur (a State Police officer) to kidnap and detain his (Cianci's) ex-wife's lover - tie him up, burn him with a cigarette, beat him with a fireplace log and urinate all over him.

Nice "Great American", eh?

BTW Buddy was re-elected by the people of Providence after the kidnapping charge resulted in a suspended sentence. Some people still consider him a "hero" and credit him with Providence's "Renaissance" and for making the "trains run on time" - not me.

With the ACORN situation as in any other, we have to see through "them" and "us" and get to the truth of things. A crook is a crook is a crook is a crook and oughta get called out... no matter which team they are on.

In my humble opinion,
Joyce

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 02:29 PM

That article fails to mention the fact that it was ACORN itself that flagged those registrations as being fraudulent so that the authorities could act on them. There never was any danger of any of those registrations resulting in a fraudulently cast vote.

This is the nature of the lies and deceptions that the Republicans are engaging in on the subject of ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 02:16 PM

The Complete Guide to ACORN Voter Fraud

Posted By Jim Hoft On October 14, 2008 @ 12:05 am

And you thought 2000 was bad.

This year's election is shaping up to be one of the most controversial in history. Just this week, a federal judge ordered Ohio's top elections official to verify the identity of newly registered voters by matching them with other government documents. The very next day a 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals set aside the federal judge's order on verifying registrations.

Further igniting the voter fraud/voter registration debate was the news that a national community organizing group is being investigated in at least 14 states and several swing states for massive irregularities. This news would make headlines anyway, but what made it worse was that Barack Obama was a key player in this organization, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, in the past. Obama trained its local leaders, represented the organization in court, and worked to funnel funds to the organization. The Obama campaign also donated $800,000 this year to an ACORN affiliate.

What is ACORN?

The Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) is a community-based organization that advocates for low and moderate income families founded in 1970 by Wade Rathke and Gary Delgado. Rathke, one of the most powerful hard-Left activists in America, is a former member of a radical 1960s group, the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS). The Weathermen terrorist group split off from the SDS in 1969. ACORN says its priorities include better housing and wages for the poor, more community development investment from banks and governments, and better public schools.

ACORN is also known for its voter registration efforts.

This year alone ACORN has registered 1,315,037 voters.

Although the organization prides itself for its registration efforts, it also has a long history of scandal. In the state of Missouri in 1986, 12 ACORN members were convicted of voter fraud. But that case was not an isolated incident in the state. In December 2004, in St. Louis, six volunteers pleaded guilty of dozens of election law violations for filling out registration cards with names of dead people and other bogus information. Authorities launched an earlier investigation after noticing that among the new voters was longtime St. Louis alderman Albert "Red" Villa, who died in 1990. The volunteers worked for "Operation Big Vote" — a branch of ACORN — in St. Louis.

On February 10, 2005, Nonaresa Montgomery, a paid worker who ran Operation Big Vote during the run-up to the 2001 mayoral primary, was found guilty of vote fraud. Montgomery hired about 30 workers to do fraudulent voter-registration canvassing. Instead of knocking on doors, the volunteers sat at a St. Louis fast food restaurant and wrote out names and information from an outdated voter list. About 1,500 fraudulent voter registration cards were turned in.

In October 2006, St. Louis election officials discovered at least 1,492 "potentially fraudulent" voter registration cards. They were all turned in by ACORN volunteers.

In November 2006, 20,000 to 35,000 questionable voter registration forms were turned in by ACORN officials in Missouri. Most all of these were from St. Louis and Kansas City areas, where ACORN purportedly sought to help empower the "disenfranchised" minorities living there. But the ACORN workers weren't just told to register new voters. The workers admitted on camera that they were coached to tell registrants to vote for Democrat Claire McCaskill.

In 2007, in Kansas City, Missouri, four ACORN employees were indicted for fraud. In April of this year eight ACORN employees in St. Louis city and county pleaded guilty to federal election fraud for submitting bogus voter registrations.

And, that was just Missouri.

This year there have been several accusations of fraud against ACORN. Over a dozen states are investigating the organization already. Here is a complete list of the ongoing investigations:

North Carolina — State Board of Elections officials have found at least 100 voter registration forms with the same names over and over again. The forms were turned in by ACORN. Officials sent about 30 applications to the state Board of Elections for possible fraud investigation.

Ohio — The New York Post reported that a Cleveland man said he was given cash and cigarettes by aggressive ACORN activists in exchange for registering an astonishing 72 times. The complaints have sparked an investigation by election officials into the organization, whose political wing has supported Barack Obama. Witnesses have already been subpoenaed to testify against the organization.

Nevada — Authorities raided the headquarters of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now on Tuesday October 7, 2008, after a month-long investigation. The fraudulent voter registrations included the Dallas Cowboys starting line-up.

Indiana — More than 2,000 voter registration forms filed in northern Indiana's Lake County filled out by ACORN employees turned out to be bogus. Officials also stopped processing a stack of about 5,000 applications delivered just before the October 6 registration deadline after the first 2,100 turned out to be phony.

Connecticut — Officials are looking into a complaint alleging ACORN submitted fraudulent voter registration cards in Bridgeport. In one instance, an official said a card was filled out for a 7-year-old girl, whose age was listed as 27. 8,000 cards were submitted in Bridgeport.

Missouri — The Kansas City election board is reporting 100 duplicate applications and 280 with fake information. Acorn officials agreed that at least 4% of their registrations were bogus. Governor Matt Blunt condemned the attempts by ACORN to commit voter fraud.

Pennsylvania — Officials are investigating suspicious or incomplete registration forms submitted by ACORN. 252,595 voter registrations were submitted in Philadelphia. Remarkably, 57,435 were rejected — most of them submitted by ACORN.

Wisconsin — In Milwaukee ACORN improperly used felons as registration workers. Additionally, its workers are among 49 cases of bad registrations sent to authorities for possible charges, as first reported by the Journal Sentinel.

Florida — The Pinellas County Elections supervisor says his office has received around 35 voter registrations that appear to be bogus. There is also a question of 30,000 felons who are registered illegally to vote. Their connections with ACORN are not yet clear.

Texas — Of the 30,000 registration cards ACORN turned in, Harris County tax assessor Paul Bettencourt says just more than 20,000 are valid. And just look at some of the places ACORN was finding those voters. A church just next door is the address for around 150 people. More than 250 people claim a homeless outreach center as their home address. Some listed a county mental health facility as their home and one person even wrote down the Harris County jail at the sheriff's office.

Michigan — ACORN in Detroit is being investigated after several municipal clerks reported fraudulent and duplicate voter registration applications coming through. The clerk interviewed said the fraud appears to be widespread.

New Mexico– The Bernalillo County clerk has notified prosecutors that some 1,100 fraudulent voter registration cards were turned in [34] by ACORN.

That's not all. So far this year at least 14 states have started investigations against ACORN. Talk about a culture of corruption. It is so bad that Representatives of Congress have asked for the Justice Department to investigate, and GOP presidential candidate John McCain is bringing it up in his stump speeches. The Obama camp is stealthily altering its "Fight the Smears" website to distance themselves from the organization — quite a challenge considering how close their candidate's association has been with the group.

The liberal vs. conservative, voter fraud vs. voter intimidation debate will no doubt continue after this election.  But this year, with the assistance of scandal-plagued ACORN, it appears that — so far — the voter fraud side is winning.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 11:30 AM

That's odd. I thought the above poster said I should go see what the New York Daily News had to say about it instead of trusting Slate. Still, that person hasn't provided any documentation whatever, so we can still assume that everything they are saying is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 09:43 AM

The claim that only 1-2% of he NY multiple-registrees voted in both states is absurd. The processs of registering requires a concious effort and would not be done 98% of the time as some sort of "accident".

The New York Dailey Times is part of the extremely slanted pro-Democrat Knight-Ridder group which includes the pitiful San Jose "merky" News. They seem to be making an effort to expose the problem and trivialize it at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 07:37 AM

So, out of a thousand people, the only one who was honest was a Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 01:47 AM

The New York Daily News said that the number of people who voted twice was between 400 and 1,000, and the only person they actually gave the party affiliation of was a Republican who voted twice in at least seven elections, including the last four presidential races.

LOLOL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 01:24 AM

If the above poster can't even provide any documentation for their own assertions, I think it's entirely safe for us to say that there is no documentation for their assertions, and we can safely say that there is no truth to them whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 12:55 AM

Perhaps somebody should look for a copy of the original article in the New York Daily News and ignore the CYA misinerpretation from Slate.

The 46,000 figure is confirmed multiple registrees from New York City only. These aren't stupid people. They are some of the wealthiest and most liberal people in the USA. They want their side to win and don't care about the rules.

All the Attorneys General of the notheasten states are Democrats and all refuse to cooperate with Florida in cleaning up voter fraud. Congress should jump in but Democrats got their 60 votes in the Senate by bending the rules so they just ain't interested in changing the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 11:46 PM

And I'd still like to see some documentation for the claim that at least half of the ACORN generated registrations in Nevada last year were fraudulent. Like the number of snow birds from New York who were supposed to have voted twice, I expect that one to be a lie, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 11:25 PM

And its lies like that one that the Republicans are using in their efforts to disenfranchise people.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 11:24 PM

But the 46,000 didn't vote twice. As I pointed out already, only between 400 and 1,000 voted twice, and we don't know how they voted. They could just as easily have voted Republican. We just don't know.

Saying that tens of thousands voted twice is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 11:20 PM

"...in a sweep of voter registration records by the New York Daily News, which found that he and 46,000 other New Yorkers were registered to vote in both Florida and New York."

Thanks for the help. Again, New York Attorney General (2000) Eliot Spitzer blocked the New York voting records from being given the Katherine Harris. She was able to purge multiple-registrees within the state of Florida. Also purged felons, but was not able to do a verry effective job with multi-state registrees or illegal aliens.

BTW, the "46,000" you mention is a lot like the "tens of thousands" I mentioned.

Chicago, Boston and all of New Jersey supply many snowbirds, although New York is probably the "big one".

George W. Bush still got 1604 more votes than Lieberman/Gore on November 7 and won despite a "handicap" of tens of thousands of illegal votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:59 PM

Let me google that for you


From the Slate article...

"This August, Moschella's name came up in a sweep of voter registration records by the New York Daily News, which found that he and 46,000 other New Yorkers were registered to vote in both Florida and New York. Moschella also had the bad luck to answer the phone when the News reporter, Russ Buettner, called. So, his name appeared in the paper's Aug. 21 story revealing that in the 2000 election between 400 and 1,000 of these double-registrants voted in both states."

It doesn't, however, say which party these people were registered as, if any, or who they voted for.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:42 PM

Actually, for both of those.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:42 PM

I'd like to see some documentation for that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:37 PM

The Nevada Secretary of State, a Democrat in an elected office, says that at least half of the ACORN registrations submitted last year were fradulant.

There was election fraud in 2000 Florida allright. Tens of thousands of "snowbirds" who live in New York, Chicago and New Jersey voted in person in Florida absentee in their home states. It is illegal, but the states where they live refused to give Florida their registration records for comparison. Eliot Spitzer was the New Yorker who personally told Florida to pound salt. Snowbirds are almost all wealthy, Jewish and Democrat. They went over 90% for Lieberman (with Gore attached).

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:14 PM

I don't think they need to worry about the next election- If they are incumbent, replace them! Regardless of party.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:12 PM

I agree that what Gore was trying to do was wrong, and it was also stupid. However, the pattern of disenfranchisement that the Republicans have been engaging in makes anything done by the Democrats pale in comparison. And the Republicans are still at it, as we can see with this smear campaign they're waging against ACORN in anticipation of the 2010 election.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:09 PM

That's not 12 years. That was only a few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:06 PM

"This is because they don't give a crap about election fraud or voter fraud, what they care about is disenfranchising voters who won't vote the way they want people to vote."

Sounds like what the Dems have been doing the last 12 years...

I recall Gore saying not to bother counting the ballots from Northern Florida, since he did not expect to win there.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:01 PM

There were Republican organizations that were guilty of election and voter fraud, but the people who are trying to shut ACORN down don't have anything at all to say about them. This is because they don't give a crap about election fraud or voter fraud, what they care about is disenfranchising voters who won't vote the way they want people to vote.

ACORN did not go out during the election and try to register people they shouldn't have. They sent people out to register legitimate voters. Some of their employees tried to register people they shouldn't have, and ACORN turned those employees in. So what any investigation will probably show is that ACORN is not and was not engaging in any illegal activity. People can keep lying about ACORN's record on this matter all they want, but that won't change the outcome of the court case.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:42 PM

But Rig,

Even the dead have a right to vote- as long as they vote the correct way.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:39 PM

They will find something. Look at the people they had manning those offices.
             I agree with you, Carol, that the young journalists would not be getting this much support from the right-wing press if ACORN hadn't gone out during the election and tried to register people to vote who didn't exist, or were dead, or lived in some other state. But they did do that. The right-wing is dedicated to make sure that doesn't happen again.
             I think the see the destruction of ACORN as a pre-requisite to their very survival.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:37 PM

"...right-wing attorneys are lining up to take the case..."

Both of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:31 PM

However, even if they don't find anything out of line (definitely a possibility), that won't shut up the critics. That's because this isn't at all about anything ACORN's doing that they shouldn't be doing. It's entirely about the rich and powerful not wanting people at the bottom to be empowered and to be able to participate in the democratic process.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:22 PM

It doesn't look like this is going away any time soon. Due to the reality that ACORN has decided to go forward with their suit against the young lady, right-wing attorneys are lining up to take the case and intend to subpoena all of ACORN's financial and personnel records under the right of discovery.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 03:20 PM

I'm pretty sure I remember that some of the conversations Tripp recorded between her and Lewinsky happened in a bar. At any rate, the court will decide whether or not ACORN has any legal basis for their suit. All we can do is speculate.


Lots of people listen to Hoyer.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 02:39 PM

"Steny Hoyer's saying, let's get more facts before taking any action."

                But nobody listens to Hoyer!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,JML
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 02:36 PM

The Bodoy case that everyone quotes deals with one employee recording conversations with another in the workplace.

Not applicable here.

The Monica Lewinsky case was over the telephone.

Again, not applicable here.

The key thing here is "intercept", which O'Keefe and Giles did not do. Intercept is different that participate. Intercept means a third party not participating in the conversation.

Also, if I remember right from looking at the video, the door to the room was open, thus negating any expectation of privacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 01:16 PM

Steny Hoyer's saying, let's get more facts before taking any action.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:29 AM

Barney Frank is washing his hands of them. I think they're toast!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:53 PM

Maybe Wade Rathke covered up his brother's million dollar fraud all by himself for eight years. I don't think anyone's proven otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: KenM
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:51 PM

Back between 1989 - 94, I lived in Little Rock AR, and on Saturdays, I hosted a folk music show on KABF, the ACORN radio station. Bruce (Peace), like it or not, some of your material from "Singer/Song Writer Project," "33 1/3 RPM", and the CBC International Recording was played on that show. The radio station was upstairs, the other functions of ACORN were downstairs. I spent many hours interacting with many fine people whose only interest was equality, equity, social justice, and a color-blind society in the U.S.

They're still there...they're still fightin' and I'm still with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:35 PM

I believe it was one employee (the embezzler's brother) who concealed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:32 PM

No, the individual embezzled; The concealment was systemic, defrauding donors.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:24 PM

(Of course we know that in the case of the military it was systemic, but that does seem to be the bar that has to be overcome in order to make the charge that an entire organization is culpable.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:22 PM

That wasn't systemic. That was an individual who has also been fired.

What is it we keep hearing about torturers in the US military? It's not systemic, only few bad apples?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:19 PM

(You mean other than intentional concealment of embezzlement.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:06 PM

And, Carol just nailed it in one.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:04 PM

There are no cases of election fraud against ACORN. There are some cases of election fraud against some people who used to work for ACORN (and who ACORN turned in to authorities), but none against ACORN itself.

We do not have any independent verification of any dishonesty on the part of ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:59 PM

No, we can independently verify (as I have done above) that ACORN cannot be trusted, without any help at all from FOX, so that one won't wash.


How many cases of election fraud are currently going on against ACORN?

It seems that YOU need to learn which rules apply to ALL, and stop stating that those you support get special treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:48 PM

"The two investigators were part of the conversation and were acting legally. Sorry, ACORN folks."

That's true. However, when the stuff seems to have been edited (what was it, 18 minutes from Nixon?), there's a problem with that. I respect most of the people posting to this thread, but find it impossible to really believe anyone here actually listens to Fox News.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:35 PM

No, we can independently verify (as I have done above) that FOX cannot be trusted, without any help at all from ACORN, so that one won't wash.

Someone needs to learn how to discern which arguments can be reversed and which ones can't before they make themself look foolish. Not all arguments can be reversed.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:28 PM

FOX News

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:23 PM

But the charge that FOX can't be trusted is based on lies and misinformation coming from organizations like ACORN. Since they are the ones making the accusations, and since they have proven time and again that they cannot be trusted, even the charge that FOX can't be trusted has no validity.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:06 PM

But the charge that ACORN can't be trusted is based on lies and misinformation coming from organizations like FOX. Since they are the ones making the accusations, and since they have proven time and again that they cannot be trusted, even the charge that ACORN can't be trusted has no validity.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:04 PM

I think ACORN's lawyers let their emotions (and potential celebrity) get the better of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:00 PM

ACORN have no credibility on the subject of Fox, because they have demonstrated that they cannot be trusted.


As I said, "They look like lies to me. And since they do it so often, they really can't be called an innocent mistake. It's a pattern of deception, designed to make people believe things that aren't true. " describes Obama. And HE has been guinning for conservatives, so you have proved that he is a liar, by your standards.


Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:51 PM

Here you go (did the ACORN workers have a reasonable expectation of privacy at their place of business to conspire and assist in criminal activity (while probably using public funding)?):

Under Maryland's Wiretapping and Electronic Surveillance Act, it is unlawful to tape record a conversation without the permission of all the parties. See Bodoy v. North Arundel Hosp., 945 F.Supp. 890 (D. Md. 1996). Additionally, recording with criminal or tortuous purpose is illegal, regardless of consent. Md. Code Ann., Cts. & Jud. Proc. § 10-402.

Disclosing the contents of intercepted communications with reason to know they were obtained unlawfully is a crime as well.

Violations of the law are felonies punishable by imprisonment for not more than five years and a fine of not more than $10,000. Civil liability for violations can include the greater of actual damages, $100 a day for each day of violation or $1,000, along with punitive damages, attorney fees and litigation costs. To recover civil damages, however, a plaintiff must prove that the defendant knew it was illegal to tape the communication without consent from all participants. MD. Code Ann., Cts. & Jud. Proc. § 10-410.

State courts have interpreted the laws to protect communications only when the parties have a reasonable expectation of privacy, and thus, where a person in a private apartment was speaking so loudly that residents of an adjoining apartment could hear without any sound enhancing device, recording without the speaker's consent did not violate the wiretapping law. Malpas v. Maryland, 695 A.2d 588 (Md. Ct. Spec. App. 1997); see also Benford v. American Broadcasting Co., 649 F. Supp. 9 (D. Md. 1986) (salesman's presentation in stranger's home not assumed to carry expectation of privacy).

http://www.rcfp.org/taping/states/maryland.html

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:42 PM

I believe in Maryland, it is illegal to make an audio recording of a conversation even if one of the participants knows about it, if the other party does not. If I remember correctly, that's what got Linda Tripp in so much hot water.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:40 PM

It's about FOX whether anyone in this thread wants it to be or not. FOX has been gunning for ACORN for a long time. They have no credibility on the subject of ACORN, because they have demonstrated that they cannot be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:39 PM

Maryland, like California, forbids you to tape your own telephone conversations without the other person's consent.

It is strange enough for them to have filed suit even if they have that recording law right. If they have it wrong, well, that would just beat all.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:17 PM

Maybe a participant in a conversation is not intercepting the conversation, but where's the Maryland law to say so?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:11 PM

Maryland statutes are quoted on page 4 of the complaint, pdq.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:00 PM

As I said before, making a video recording is not illegal. If it were, all the surveillance cameras running in stores or sitting on traffic lights catching speeders would be against the law.

The question of recording voice it trickier, but clear.

A person involved in the conversation can record at will, even if some parties are not warned.

What is illegal is "evesdropping" where the party doing the recording is an observer, not a participant. Evesdropping can be done only with a legal authorization.

The two investigators were part of the conversation and were acting legally. Sorry, ACORN folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:20 PM

CarlC,

YOU are the one trying to make it about Fox- the thread is about ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:13 PM

Here's the complaint:
http://www.politico.com/static/PPM116_complaint.html

This is amazing. ACORN and the two Baltimore women are jointly suing, even though ACORN fired them. They carefullly restricted the complaint to "You taped us without our consent," "With malice" and we were emotionally distressed (with accompanying physical symptoms) and damaged in reputation.

NO allegations about false pretenses, false representations or false portrayals. - Keep it simple. . . .

But have they thought this through? Besides the obvious fact that they are seeking retribution for someone revealing their words, they will have to prove the measure of their distress, and what caused it - Unpermitted audio recording - or being fired? Being portrayed as criminals, or being falsely portrayed as criminals?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 04:42 PM

Kathleen Parker and Marcel Reid don't seem to care whether or not the things they say actually coincide with the facts, apparently. Acorn has not been stripped of its federal funding. The fact that so many people think they have been is a testament to the propagandistic nature of the US mainstream media.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 04:06 PM

I usually disagree with Kathleen Parker on everything, but she lays out the ACORN situation pretty well here:

http://www.themorningsun.com/articles/2009/09/23/opinion/srv0000006458554.txt

             She doesn't deal with home loans for illegal aliens, so I expect that will be next.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 03:00 PM

But the percentages of people who support Obama's plans isn't the subject being discussed here. The demand for that information is a deflection designed to change the subject so that people who claim that the majority of people watch FOX News won't have to back up their assertions with any facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:59 PM

"They look like lies to me. And since they do it so often, they really can't be called an innocent mistake. It's a pattern of deception, designed to make people believe things that aren't true. "


Exactly my opinion of the Obama statemnents on a number of topics!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:56 PM

They look like lies to me. And since they do it so often, they really can't be called an innocent mistake. It's a pattern of deception, designed to make people believe things that aren't true.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:54 PM

I'd like to see some independent documentation (not coming from the supporters) on the percentages of people who support Obama plans. I'm sure as hell not going to take an Obama supporter's word for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:49 PM

And, of course, FOX "News" has a habit of labelling as Democrats, Republicans who get caught in scandals.

Mark Foley with a D is here

and Mark Sanford with a D is here.

There are more as well (Arlen Specter when he was still a Republican), and Dan Crain of Illinois who was caught having an affair with a 17 year old page in the 1980's was recently labelled with a D on FOX.

Do these count as evidence of FOX News lies?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:08 PM

I'd like to see some independent documentation (not coming from FOX) on the percentages of people who watch FOX. I'm sure as hell not going to take a FOX viewer's word for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:01 PM

The do if they're bulimic!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 01:59 PM

So, if the liberals do not watch Fox, then this demonstrably proves that most people are not liberals. since Fox has been getting a larger and larger share of viewers.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 01:16 PM

Fortunately, the speculation that it might be record numbers of liberals watching is demonstrably false. FOX News makes "liberals" vomit. It's a natural reflex that can't be controlled. So they don't watch it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:52 AM

It also appeals to idiots incapable of critical and/or independent thought, Carol. I hope a regular poster here recognizes himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 01:31 AM

FOX appeals to people's baser instincts. A lot of people find that irresistible.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 01:16 AM

Wow, CarolC, you've become quite an expert on Fox News. I congratulate you!

Wonder why their ratings are so high? Maybe the numbers of liberals watching are increasing the ratings to all time highs? Or maybe some folks look for a channel they can depend upon to report unbiased news.

It's a puzzlement.

Greg F: as I've often said, your cage is cleaned out now, so you can return home.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 09:21 PM

Very hard to believe, but if they can prove it, they can probably sue somebody. I doubt if they'll get anywhere trying to sue Fox News.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 04:13 PM

Everything was fictional, including their representation to their viewers of what happened in the ACORN offices.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 04:08 PM

"The people who made the videos were caught in quite a few lies about their experiences at various ACORN offices."

             Of course, everything they did was fictitious, but I don't see how it will go anywhere in court.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 03:44 PM

This page shows how FOX News presented a bogus story as fact. They never bothered to fact check it to make sure it was true. It wouldn't have been difficult to fact check it (something any legitimate journalistic enterprise would do, but propaganda outlets would not). All they would have had to do would be to ask the police. They also did not contact the ACORN employee in question to get any comments from her...

http://mediamatters.org/research/200909160023


Here's a couple of rather striking examples of FOX News' lies. These are graphic examples. They take photographs of people they want to present in a bad light, and they graphically alter the photographs to make the people look bad, scary, and stupid. In this one, they moved his hairline down about an inch, made his face a lot smaller and his ears bigger, made his nose a lot wider and his chin freakily big and wide. They also yellowed his teeth, added shadows to his cheek lines (making his cheeks look much more puffy) and darkened the area around his eyes to make them look sunken in...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0e/FNCControversy_Steinburg.png

In this one, they made his forehead look like it was at least a couple of inches taller than it was, they moved his hairline back at least a couple of inches also, they yellowed his teeth, and put really big, dark, circles under and around his eyes...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1b/FNCControversy_Redicliffe.png


On September, 18, FOX News took out full page ads in the Washington Post and New York Post claiming that ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, and CNN did not cover the big teabagger rally in Washington a couple of weeks ago. This is easily disproven since lots of people actually watched the coverage of the rally on those networks, and since there is still plenty of footage from them at the rally. In fact, the photograph FOX uses in its ad actually came from the CNN broadcast coverage (FOX News must really believe their viewers are stupid... and maybe they have good reason to believe that).


A study done in 2003 by the Academy of Political Science (reported in their Political Science Quarterly Volume 118, Number 4, Winter 2003-2004), examined the frequency of misperceptions about certain facts according to which "news" outlet was being viewed. All of them showed some discrepancy with the facts, but FOX was by far the worst...

Frequency of misperceptions per respondent: WMD found, evidence of al Qaeda link, and world majority support for the war...

Viewers of FOX, CBS, ABC, CNN, NBC, Print Media, NPR/PBS, one or more misperception -

FOX: 80%
CBS: 71%
ABC: 61%
CNN: 55%
NBC: 55%
Print Media: 47%
NPR/PBS: 23%

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 03:03 PM

Maybe they're not covering any illegal alien home loan racket because there isn't one.

I just watched Bertha Lewis being interviewed by Wolf Blitzer. She said ACORN is proceeding with the law suits.

The people who made the videos were caught in quite a few lies about their experiences at various ACORN offices. They stated many times that they were never denied help (while posing as a pimp and a prostitute) in any of the ACORN offices they visited. FOX News assisted them in making this claim. This page has a police report that was filed after ACORN workers refused to assist the video makers because they were asking suspicious questions. This also happened at other ACORN offices...

http://mediamatters.org/research/200909170031

Here is a video of an ACORN worker who filed a police report. She says the people were not dressed outrageously, and they did not present themselves as a pimp or a prostitute. She says the man was not dressed as he appears in the videos that are being shown on FOX. And since we never see him dressed that way while actually talking to the ACORN worker in the videos, we can assume that he wasn't dressed that way when he was talking with them, either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjyIiDUyoY&feature=player_embedded

So we have proof that the makers of the video have lied quite a few times, including on FOX News, and that they misrepresented in the videos what actually happened during the making of the videos. We have overwhelming proof that these people, 1. have an agenda to discredit ACORN, and 2. they have used lies and dishonest tactics to do it, and 3. their representation of ACORN and its workers is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 09:10 AM

Yup. If ya play with as turd, you'll get beshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 08:22 AM

Unfortunately, the story about ACORN's illegal alien home loan racket doesn't seem to be getting much traction in the mainstream media. If Fox News picks up the story, it'll be front a front page story everywhere. So it seems to me like Fox News is good for something.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 09:41 PM

....if there is a source that proves Fox News lied about a news story, I'd certainly like to know what it is.

And the point in providing you with the many proofs and sources would be what, exactly, Douggie?

You wouldn't recognize a fact or proof if either, or both, bit you on the ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 05:23 PM

Right. Prosecute the messenger (Fox News), and praise the accused.

And if, as someone pointed out, there is a source that proves Fox News lied about a news story, I'd certainly like to know what it is.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 04:57 PM

"Another thing to consider--when I saw these people on Hannity--the case was made that these were free-lance journalists who had made this footage and were now offering it on the open market. Of course, Fox snapped it up."

I don't doubt that for a second. They seem to pander to their audience. Sleazy is as sleazy does.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 04:18 PM

A better place for the video would have been the United States Department of Justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 04:17 PM

While no paper work was generated by the fake pimp's request for information the perception that the 2 ACORN employees are well educated cons who routinely work the system for common street crime in the ghettos is weak.

On the other hand when ever you see a group of late middle aged men in $1000 suits meeting miday at a hotel - no good will come of that.
Odds are they are fixing prices internationally for food ingredients.
OR discussing new banking fees to defraud and bilk customers.
OR hiring young folks to do video stings on their behalf.

I saw the FIRST appearence on TV of the young lady who claimed this was all her idea. WShe had not yet refined her presentation.
WHen asked "How did you come up with this idea?"
She said " I saw these ACORN volunteers on the street and I said to myself, I DOn't Like THose PeoPle!, so I called my friend who did video work..."


Hmm

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 10:42 AM

I think her name is Bertha Lewis. She is making the talk show rounds and seems to be the spokes-person for ACORN. I saw her on a show yesterday--one of the general news programs--and she indicated that they were more concerned about getting their own house in order than going after the journalists who originally set this whole thing up.

               Another thing to consider--when I saw these people on Hannity--the case was made that these were free-lance journalists who had made this footage and were now offering it on the open market. Of course, Fox snapped it up. If that's the case, and in view of the fact that the footage has since been shown on other outlets, one would have to link the journalist to Fox News before a suit could really go too far--in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:30 AM

Source for that, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:06 AM

"...if ACORN decides to sue, FOX will have their day in court."

             It sounds to me like they've decided not to sue. I think it would be embarrassing for ACORN if they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 11:46 PM

Obama is appearing on all sorts of network programs this week, everyone but FOX. He knows a landmine when he sees it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 11:46 PM

Oops. Forgot about the law suit. Well, that's certainly a form of due process, and if ACORN decides to sue, FOX will have their day in court. Sounds fair to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 11:44 PM

Has someone suggested that some kind of legal action be taken against FOX?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 09:33 PM

Well, I certainly don't take FOX at its word, but I have trouble buying into a number of other news outlets as well. It seems to me like, in order to get to the truth anymore one has to sort through several sources and then make up his/her own mind.

                   Personally, I think ACORN just tried to get into too many things and simply didn't have enough trained management staff to handle it all. The people on the tape that FOX presented didn't look like professional managarial types to me.
                   I think if ACORN would just simply concentrate on low income housing they could help a lot of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 06:56 PM

Gentlemen,

YOU know FOX is not a trust-worthy station. Pretending you don't is beneath you. Carol has demonstrated often in the past that FOX lies. Hell, would YOU take FOX at its word? Asking Carol to document every-effin'-thing is an attempt to waste her time.

It's entirely possible that ACORN needs to have its pee-pee slapped, big time. It's also entirely possible that so does FOX. What they did and the method by which they went about it would have been seen as entrapment had it been done by the cops. FOX use shit disturbing as a means to 'create' news. That isn't how news should be reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 05:55 PM

Apparently nothing Fox News has said has proven to be actionable, or it seems like somebody would be going after them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 04:07 PM

There's already been plenty of due process for FOX. There's all kinds of studies showing that a huge percentage of the things FOX says are lies. That's very easily documentable, and it has been documented.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 02:13 PM

CarolC,

"Better to wait until there's been some kind of due process before making a judgment."


So you will wait until there is some due process before your statements about Fox et al???

Or do you have two sets of rules, one for those you syupport, and a different set for those you differ with?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 01:22 PM

Where is the reality in going after Fox News? They don't take federal money, they aren't hiding who they are and what they stand for, so what would one use to launch an attack?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 12:22 PM

Maybe. And then again, maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 09:32 AM

Well then just go ahead and stand idly by while the ship is going down. In the end, when the dust has settled, ACORN and anyone still supporting or at least associated with will have lost any and all credibility that they had.

And about congress....even a dog knows when not to fight...

...and for me? ....That's giving THIS congress way too much credit


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 01:39 AM

We know better than to trust liars. Better to wait until there's been some kind of due process before making a judgment. I know that's difficult for people with no ethics to understand, but it is the American way.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 01:08 AM

What???

Corruption in the liberal ranks???

Why is everyone running so fast to defend when what you need to be doing is following congress and washing your hands of the whole foul mess?

At least congress knows when it's time to mop up the floor....


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 11:43 PM

He can still do a ton of damage by setting a precedent. That would be bad for the future. So for the sake of the future, we should make sure nobody gets away with anything criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 10:18 PM

Except Cheney is out of office and can't do any more damage. It seems to me it would be more effective to look to the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 09:08 PM

Hear, hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 09:07 PM

LOL

We need to finish investigating the Cheney administration before we start pouring taxpayer resources into investigating Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 08:11 PM

Yeah. Ten to one s/he'll have a line of lobbyists a mile long waiting to speak and see the error of her or his ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 08:09 PM

All I know is that Barack Obama worked as a lawyer for ACORN/Project Vote for 7 months and he surely didn't settle for $8 per year. Not even $8 per hour. Can we guess it was closer to $200 per hour.

This administration has a conflict of interest "big time" and the insevtigator must be an outsider to avoid the obvious witewash.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 07:56 PM

"The numbers are bogus. We need a special investigator appointed pronto."

I loved seeing that. It's a clear indication that people don't think they'll receive fairness from run-of-the-mill investigators. The investigators have to be special. (Not yankin' yer chain, pdq. I have thought that for years. I think people of varying degrees of politicaltudinousness don't trust their governments to do what's right as opposed to what's expedient.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 07:52 PM

Well, pdq, a special investigator would probably satisy you concerns and Peace's concerns as well.

                What do you think Congress should do about funding in the meantime?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 07:49 PM

"ACORN...is the largest grassroots community organization in the United States, comprised of over 450,000 member families..." ~ their press release

If we auuume that means that ACORN has 450,000 individual working for it, well, let's "do the math".

ACORN is said to have received $54 million federal (taxpayer) dollars since 1994. Divide among 450,000 workers, that is just $8 dollars per worker per year!.

Again, one investigative reporter claims that over 8 billion in federal money is allotted to the 300 groups afilliated with ACORN. That is just in next years budget.

The numbers are bogus. We need a special investigator appointed pronto.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 07:47 PM

I hope the "Truth" about ACORN is spread. Followed by the truth about FOX and the people behind this 'entrapment' procedure.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 07:42 PM

Seems like if ACORN was as guilty as people are saying, they wouldn't be the ones wanting to go to court. If those ACORN workers did what they are accused of doing, they should be prosecuted. Maybe nobody else wants to go to court because they don't have a leg to stand on.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 07:21 PM

The only people talking about going to court is ACORN itself. I think the other folks have done all they intend on doing with it.   .

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 05:10 PM

Ok, I watched it again. I don't see that video being able to hold up in a court of law. There's tons of edits, and we never actually see the "pimp" or the "prostitute" say what we are hearing. There's no way to know if they actually said those things or if they were overdubbed. Neither of the ACORN employees ever use the words "pimp" or "prostitute" except for one time where you can barely here it, and that one sounds like it could have been overdubbed.

I am definitely in favor of an investigation. But I don't think it's right to automatically accept the word of known liars (FOX News) before an investigation is conducted.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 03:35 PM

Is there a point to that last post?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 03:32 PM

...from a press release by ACORN:

"ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now) is the largest grassroots community organization in the United States, comprised of over 450,000 member families organized into 1000+ neighborhood chapters in over 100 cities across the country. The mission of ACORN is to empower low and moderate-income people..."

"The majority of ACORN registrants are low-income, about 75% are African-American, 25% are Latino and 50% are under 30 years old."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 03:10 PM

However, that one can be flipped. It's interesting to see, considering how may times FOX News has been caught lying and propagandizing, how many people still support that organization.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 03:08 PM

If the tapes were doctored, the ACORN people still would have a good reason to fire the employees in question, as I said before, because the employees were giving advice on how to falsify information. What they are saying was doctored is the claim that the workers were told that the man and woman were a prostitute and pimp and that they were going to start a child sex ring. I will have to go back and watch the video again to see what I think of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 03:01 PM

It will be interesting to see, Carol, if you detect the same odor after the 2010 congressional elections.

It's interesting to see how many folks, even after viewing the video, which has been run numerous times still support ACORN. (Obviously the video was doctored. Right.) If, however, they were doctored, why did ACORN fire the employees that appeared on them? Surely and organization at upright at ACORN would have supported them, not fired them.

Anyone that does not fear that their television screen will be permanently tainted by tuning in to Fox News tomorrow can see the president of ACORN interviewed on that network by Chris Wallace.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 12:42 PM

LOL

I just realized why the Republicans have kicked their efforts against ACORN into high gear. They've narrowed down their voter base so much through pandering to their lunatic fringe that they will have to disenfranchise a huge percentage of voters in order to get any of their people elected in 2010. LOL... I think I smell desperation.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 12:20 PM

The fraudulent registrations never made it past ACORN's screening process. They flagged all of the questionable registrations and handed them over to the authorities as they were required to do by law. There was never any danger that the fraudulent registrations would result in someone voting illegally, and therefore there was never any assault on anyone's right to vote. That's just Republican smear mongering, and a part of the pattern of Republican efforts to disenfranchise large numbers of voters, which is itself a form of election fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 11:54 AM

On Weekend Edition Scott Simon and Juan Williams discussed this event. Williams repeated the statement that those folks caught on film helping criminals were "indefensible." But the Philadelphia workers who called the police on the pair weren't added to the smear, and the many other offices that didn't bite weren't reported.

link.

Follow the money. The sponsorship of the "investigation" must be examined. "These people are just setting folks up and trying to embarrass them for political reasons." You got that right, Juan.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 11:47 AM

The organization mobilized a get-out-the-vote effort to support Obama's presidential bid last year, but it was tainted when nearly a third of the 1.3 million voters the group registered were rejected.

Last week, authorities in Miami announced the arrests of 11 former registration canvassers on allegations that they had submitted nearly 200 falsified forms.


Sawzaw, when you post this kind of nonsense you should at least post a citation to the yellow journalism where you found it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 11:46 AM

"...ACORN itself turned over to authorities any employees who were engaging in illegal practices." ~ Carol C

Oh, crap. Every place that ACORN had a major presence, the same exact fraud occurred.

Clark County (Las Vegas), Nevada is still trying to figure out what happened in last year's election. Estimates that about half of all the voter submissions by ACORN were blatant fraud. Others are suspect but are harder to prove. Illegal aliens are a major part of this organized, systematic assault on our right to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 11:31 AM

It should be pointed out, again, that ACORN itself turned over to authorities any employees who were engaging in illegal practices.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 11:23 AM

"Guess which left-wing group is at the center of the worst case of voter-registration fraud in Washington state history? Yep, you guessed it: ACORN. The same ACORN tied to massive voter fraud in Missouri. And Ohio. And 12 other states.

Here's the Washington state scoop via Seattle's KOMO TV: "King County prosecutors filed felony charges Thursday against seven people in what a top official described as the worst case of voter-registration fraud in state history, while the organization they worked for agreed to keep a better eye on its employees and pay $25,000 to defray costs of the investigation. The seven submitted about 1,800 registration cards last fall on behalf of the liberal Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, which had hired them at $8 an hour to sign people up to vote, according to charging documents filed in Superior Court."

Prosecutors didn't sugercoat the fraud: "This was an act of vandalism upon the voter rolls of King County," said Dan Satterberg, the interim King County prosecutor. But officials tried to give ACORN some benefit of the doubt, noting that the defendants were motivated by financial gain rather than intentions of sabotaging the election.

However, in interviews with King County Sheriff's Detective Chris Johnson, several of the defendants – while freely admitting they forged the forms – insisted that they had been told ACORN would shut down their office in Tacoma if they didn't improve their numbers, Johnson wrote in a probable cause statement.

One, Ryan Olson, said another worker in the office told him "do what you have to do" to turn in more cards.

ACORN's oversight of the workers was virtually nonexistent – to the extent that civil charges could have been warranted, Satterberg said.

In a settlement agreement announced Thursday, ACORN, which cooperated with the investigation, agreed to pay $25,000 and to make improvements in its management, training and oversight of suspect voter registrations throughout the state."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 11:10 AM

White House press secretary Robert Gibbs called the conduct of some of the organization's employees "indefensible."

"The administration takes accountability extremely seriously," he said. The U.S. Census Bureau's decision to sever ties to the group reflects that, he added, with their view that the group "could not meet the bureau's goal of achieving a fair and accurate count in 2010."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 11:04 AM

The organization mobilized a get-out-the-vote effort to support Obama's presidential bid last year, but it was tainted when nearly a third of the 1.3 million voters the group registered were rejected.

Last week, authorities in Miami announced the arrests of 11 former registration canvassers on allegations that they had submitted nearly 200 falsified forms.

A preliminary hearing is scheduled for this month in Nevada, where state prosecutors have accused ACORN and two former top officials of using an illegal incentive system to motivate people registering voters just before the 2008 presidential election.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 10:52 AM

Ouch. I would think that receipt of federal funds is a privilege not a right, absent discrimination, so that they could refuse to allocate funds and even rescind authorization. But to revoke any right to apply for funding for all time does seem hysterical and unprofessional. You'd think these folk would know their jobs better.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 02:15 AM

Apparently the House has not yet defunded ACORN. The bill it is attached to hasn't been passed yet, and the amendment has still has to make it through the conference committee. And there is a rather big problem with the amendment. It's unconstitutional...


WASHINGTON, D.C. – Today, Congressman Jerrold Nadler (D-NY), Chair of the Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties, denounced a Republican Amendment adopted by the House of Representatives to deny all federal funds to ACORN as blatantly unconstitutional and a threat to unpopular organizations everywhere. The Republican initiative, entitled the Defund ACORN Act, singles out a specific organization by name for exclusion from participating in any federal program, in direct violation of the Constitution's prohibition against Bills of Attainder.

"Today's Republican Amendment is in blatant violation of the Constitution's prohibition against Bills of Attainder," said Nadler. "Congress must not be in the business of punishing individual organizations or people without trial, and that's what this Amendment does. Whatever one may think of an organization, the Constitution's clear ban on Bills of Attainder is there for the protection of all of our liberties."

The Supreme Court, in decisions dating back to the Civil War era, has held that the Constitution prohibits all legislative acts, "no matter what their form, that apply either to named individuals or to easily ascertainable members of a group in such a way as to inflict punishment on them without a judicial trial…." During the McCarthy era, for example, Congress enacted legislation prohibiting the use of funds to pay the salaries of three federal employees who Congress deemed subversive. The Supreme Court ruled this legislation unconstitutional as a Bill of Attainder.

This Amendment, in addition to being clearly unconstitutional, sets a dangerous precedent of Congress punishing politically disfavored groups without any due process.

As Chair of the Judiciary Subcommittee charged with defending the Constitution, Nadler spoke out on the House floor against the Republican Amendment, delivering the following statement:

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A little while ago, the House passed an amendment to the bill that we were considering that says no contract or federal funds may ever go to ACORN, a named organization, or to any individual or organization affiliated with ACORN. Unfortunately, this was done in the spirit of the moment and nobody had the opportunity to point out that this is a flat violation of the Constitution, constituting a Bill of Attainder. The Constitution says that Congress shall never pass a Bill of Attainder. Bills of Attainder, no matter what their form, apply either to a named individual or to easily ascertainable members of a group, to inflict punishment. That's exactly what this amendment does.

"It may be that ACORN is guilty of various infractions, and, if so, it ought to be vetted, or maybe sanctioned, by the appropriate administrative agency or by the judiciary. Congress must not be in the business of punishing individual organizations or people without trial.

"That's what this Amendment did. It is flatly prohibited by the Constitution, and once we ignore the Constitution we ignore constitutional principles. Whatever one may think of the subject matter or the organization, the Constitution and the ban on Bills of Attainder are there for the protection of all of our liberties. It is unfortunate that we passed this, and I hope it is removed in the conference committee."

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ny08_nadler/Acorn091709.html

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 12:45 AM

I watched/heard it when the story first broke, but didn't pay enough attention to notice if it had been edited. All of the articles I read about it while it was first breaking on that first day (in the mainstream press) said that the tape had been doctored and edited, and I didn't bother to go back and watch it again to make sure. Considering all of the lies that FOX News has been telling about ACORN for years, I consider it perfectly reasonable expect them to be lying now. But I will go back and watch it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 19 Sep 09 - 12:33 AM

LMFAO!! I just came to this issue today.

Have you watched the Baltimore videos? It doesn't MATTER what anyone else said.

And ACORN brass is permitting ACORN legal to threaten lawsuits for not obtaining permission to record them counseling crime! There's your "officials." OMG

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 06:33 PM

And then stating that the girls would be underaged enraged a whole different set of people, probably a lot of women.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 06:03 PM

What's interesting is the way the journalists set this up. For instance, it doesn't really bother me that somebody proposes to run a prostitution ring, but it really bothers me that they would bring illegal aliens in from Honduras to do it.

            They insult the sensiblities of a much larger group of people that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 03:53 PM

Oh, definitely. More questions should definitely have been asked, and LOTS more things investigated. No-one will get any disagreement from me on that point. Fortunately, Attorney General Holder is starting to correct this oversight.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 03:24 PM

"...people shouldn't be drawing conclusions before the questions are even asked, much less answered..." CarolC

How glib.

Perhaps the same standards should have been used for the last ten years concerning the false accusations made against a host of non-Democrats?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 03:15 PM

I never said they should be immune from questions. But people shouldn't be drawing conclusions before the questions are even asked, much less answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 03:06 PM

Just because they're left-leaning doesn't make them immune from questions, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 01:22 PM

Just because they're left-leaning doesn't make them questionable.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 12:06 PM

Some investigative reporters are suggesting that ACORN is the umbrella organization for about 300 Left-leaning groups and are (were) in line for over 8 billion dollars in next year's budget (starting 1 OCT this year).

The hidden inter-related control of so many qustional groups would make Meyer Lansky proud.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 11:45 AM

At long last, the mainstream media is finally getting around to the issue of recognizing the many mortgages that were issued to illegal immigrants. It turns out that ACORN was in the middle of that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 01:02 AM

Based on recent reports, I would say, Alice, that the "truth" about ACORN has finally been spread.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 09 - 10:54 PM

I wonder how many ACORN representatives showed these folks the door before they found a few bad apples? I'm coming into the conversation late, but it's clear that the GOP is working now to try to minimize Obama's grass roots support early to hamper him at re-election time.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 17 Sep 09 - 10:28 PM

The House throws Acorn under da bus:

(UPI) The U.S. House, by a wide margin, voted to bar the community organizing group ACORN from receiving any federal funding.

The House, on a 347-75 vote, passed the bill cutting off federal funding to the controversial Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, The Washington Post reported. The organization came under heavy, bipartisan criticism last week after a surreptitiously recorded video emerged in which two conservative activists posed as a prostitute and pimp and received advice from a Baltimore ACORN employee on how to avoid paying taxes.

All House Republicans present for the vote backed the measure, as well as 172 Democrats. Seventy-five Democrats opposed the measure.

The Senate earlier this week passed a bill, 83-7, to bar ACORN from receiving federal housing grants from the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the Post reported. Officials said the upper chamber is considering a total ban similar to the measure passed by the House.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 09 - 01:50 PM

"Schwarzenegger sent a letter to Attorney General Jerry Brown asking his office to look into ACORN's activities in California,..."


                Does anybody seriously think Jerry Brown will do anything to investigate ACORN?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 09 - 01:21 PM

By the way, investigation is a good thing. But if ACORN is not found to be guilty of all of the things the propaganda machine of the right wing is throwing at them, I expect that the people smearing them in this thread will somehow forget to inform us.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 09 - 01:12 PM

One of the videos shows the worker telling the client that she had shot her husband to death. All of her ex-husbands are still alive and well, according to the local police. LOL She nailed 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 17 Sep 09 - 12:55 PM

Strike 5, The Governator rolls Acorn under da bus:

AP: LOS ANGELESâ€"Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger called on California's attorney general Wednesday to investigate ACORN, the community organizing group that has recently come under fire in videos produced by conservative activists.

The videos show the group's workers offering advice on how to set up prostitution businesses, the activists have said.

Schwarzenegger sent a letter to Attorney General Jerry Brown asking his office to look into ACORN's activities in California, the Los Angeles Times reported.

The advocacy group was criticized after employees were caught on camera appearing to advise a couple posing as a prostitute and pimp to lie about the woman's profession to get housing help.

The most recent video, released Wednesday, was filmed in San Diego. A man appearing to pose as a pimp asks a worker if Tijuana, Mexico, is the best place to bring underage girls into the U.S. The man replies, "yes," saying he has a lot of friends there who can assist.....

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 08:23 AM

Strike four, the Senate rolls Acorn under da bus: WSJ

On Monday, the U.S. Senate voted 83-7 to strip Acorn, the premier community organizing group on the left, of more than $1.6 million in federal housing money meant to assist low-income people obtain loans and prepare tax forms. This dramatic step followed last Friday's decision by the U.S. Census Bureau to sever its ties with the organization, one of several community groups it was partnering with to conduct the nation's head count.

Both of these actions came after secretly recorded videos involving employees in Acorn's Brooklyn, N.Y., Washington, D.C., Baltimore, Md. and San Bernardino, Calif. offices were televised on Fox News. The videos were recorded by two independent filmmakers who posed as a prostitute and a pimp and said they were planning to import underage women from El Salvador for the sex trade. They asked for and received advice on getting a housing loan and evading federal taxes.

In response, Acorn has so far fired four of the employees seen on the videos. But it claimed the videos were "doctored" and accused critics of a smear campaign and "racist coverage" of the incidents.

Such rhetoric in the past has deflected scrutiny of Acorn tactics, such as street demonstrations and boycotts against banks to force lower credit standards for home loans, which a congressional report found contributed to the subprime loan mess. But now Acorn may be finally running off the rails.

Last week, 11 of its workers were accused by Florida prosecutors of falsifying information on 888 voter registration forms. Last month, Acorn's former Las Vegas, Nev., field director, Christopher Edwards, agreed to testify against the group in a case in which Las Vegas election officials say 48% of the voter registration forms the group turned in were "clearly fraudulent." Acorn itself is charged with 13 counts of illegally using a quota system to compensate workers in an effort to boost the number of registrations. (Acorn has denied wrongdoing in all of these cases.)

A growing number of people once affiliated with Acorn want nothing more to do with the group. Marcel Reid, for example, was one of eight national Acorn board members who were removed last year after demanding an audit of the group's books. She notes that Acorn received $7.4 million in contributions from the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) between 2005 and 2008 but actively fights unionization efforts by its own employees. Ms. Reid also notes that Acorn was sanctioned by the National Labor Relations Board in 2003 for illegally firing workers trying to organize a union.

In 1995, Acorn unsuccessfully sued California to be exempt from the minimum wage, claiming that "the more that Acorn must pay each individual outreach worker . . . the fewer outreach workers it will be able to hire." The decision to file that lawsuit was made by Wade Rathke, who founded Acorn in 1970 and was its long-time leader. He was forced by the group's board to resign last year after it found that he'd engaged in a cover-up of a nearly $1 million embezzlement of Acorn funds by his brother Dale, then the group's chief financial officer.

Mr. Rathke now the chief organizer of a New Orleans-based local of the SEIU, a key Acorn ally is out with a new book, "Citizen Wealth," in which he touts a vision of "maximum eligible participation" by Americans in welfare programs as a way to force radical social change.

Regardless of the wisdom of that vision, it's time to follow the lead of the Census Bureau and cut the government's ties to the highly dubious characters surrounding Acorn. (The group has taken in more than $53 million in direct funding from the federal government since 1994, and substantially more indirectly through states and cities that receive federal block grants.)

Acorn's allies in Congress have long stopped every move to rein it in. Rep. Steve King (R., Iowa), for example, has tried six times to get House floor votes restricting Acorn's access to federal funds but has been blocked by Speaker Nancy Pelosi's hand-picked Rules Committee members. Some Democrats have grumbled. Michigan's John Conyers, chair of the Judiciary Committee, urged a hearing be held on Acorn abuses in March, but later told the Washington Times "the powers that be decided against it."

There is a chance the latest scandals will convince Democrats that Acorn is too toxic a political partner. And President Barack Obama, who once ran a voter-registration program for an Acorn partner (Project Vote) and then worked for Acorn as a lawyer on key cases, has every incentive to distance himself further from the organization.

Former Acorn board members tell me the group has always been confident it will be protected. After the Nevada voter-registration fraud indictment last May, Bonnie Greathouse, Acorn's chief organizer in the state, told the Las Vegas Review-Journal that "we've had bad publicity before" and survived. "People always come forward to our defense. We're just community organizers, just like the president used to be."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 10:01 PM

Oops. I guess that's what we'll find out later on.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 09:59 PM

I guess that's what we'll find out later one.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 09:54 PM

"...its the responsibility of the people who made that video to prove they didn't make it all up by showing... that the words we hear in the video are the same words that the ACORN workers are hearing."

                   I don't think they'll have any trouble doing that!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 06:15 PM

I don't know why anyone would think I would be stupid enough to fall for a tactic like quoting one post of mine in a thread, ignoring all of the others, and try to suggest that that one post proves that I haven't provided any documentation.

On the other hand, its the responsibility of the people who made that video to prove they didn't make it all up by showing all of the footage they took, including the parts that were edited out, and blacked out, and to prove that they didn't overdub the real words that they were speaking to the ACORN workers - that the words we hear in the video are the same words that the ACORN workers are hearing.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 06:09 PM

Two different issues: whether ACORN is still legally operating in MD, and whether it is 'responsible' for actions some of its employees may or may not have engaged in in several states.

IF it needs to re-do its charter or permits, that should be decided by proper authorities and dealt with. I see that document, but I have no way of knowing what it is about.

The other issue is whether Fox and their 'crew' created a fake story to entrap someone and what the relevance is. It is so obviously an attempt to get something...anything... 'on' ACORN,,,but it sure doesn't look to me like anyone at ACORN is guilty of anything except a couple of employees being stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 05:15 PM

"CarolC - PM
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 03:47 PM

It's been doctored all along. It is obviously edited and overdubbed. There are blank parts and obvious edits. Until the makers of the film can show that they didn't fabricate the "evidence" they say the video represents, it couldn't possibly stand up in a court of law. And if it can't stand up in a court of law, it can't be taken as fact. It's an obvious fake. "


Not documentation. It is opinion. Until YOU can show that it has been faked, I have to consider it undocumented.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 05:02 PM

I've already provided documentation for my accusation.


I saw the documents, but I have no way of knowing if they are genuine or not based on what I saw. They aren't on a government website.

The suggestion that having a Democratic governor and legislature would cause them to not enforce the law in the case of ACORN is, however, without any basis in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 04:10 PM

"CarolC - PM
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 10:00 PM

More like they're just cranking out the fabrications as fast as they can doctor them"





Waiting for you to provide some documentation of your accusation, or a retraction.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 04:00 PM

Did you even look at them?

You MUST be kidding- MD has a Democratic gov. and legislature.


You asked for the documents, I gave them to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 03:26 PM

Seems like if that were true, they would have been closed down for business in Maryland in 2006.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 02:55 PM

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/11320897/ACORN-Illegally-Operating-in-Maryland

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 01:45 PM

According to what documents? The post above says according to the following documents and then doesn't provide any documents.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 01:28 PM

" Exclusive: ACORN Illegally Operating in Maryland

by Mike Roman

Last week, we saw some pretty disturbing activities revealed in the undercover footage from ACORN Housing's Baltimore office. By any measure of conduct, the actions of ACORN's employees should never have happened. It turns out the actions shouldn't have happened for another, very simple, reason: ACORN can't legally operate in the state of Maryland.

According to the following documents, ACORN, Inc.–the parent organization of all things ACORN–forfeited its corporate charter in Maryland in 2006. ACORN Housing forfeited its corporate charter in 2008. Any ACORN office in the state of Maryland is potentially operating illegally.

The Maryland Attorney General has made noise about prosecuting the intrepid journalists who undercovered the misdeeds of ACORN employees. Perhaps he should focus instead on how ACORN was able to operate without a license in his state."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 07:17 AM

Well, I guess we'll see where it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 10:00 PM

More like they're just cranking out the fabrications as fast as they can doctor them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 09:54 PM

I don't think they sat on it for months, but days. What I think they did was to anticipate that ACORN would come out, as they did, and proclaim the first incident to be a fluke and say it could never happen again, and then fire the employees.
             That's exactly what they did, so the journalists came out with a second tape. ACORN floundered around for a while, and then became indignant and threatened to sue. I think the journalists anticipated that as well, and then un-canned a third tape while announcing that they have even more evidence.
             Now it looks like ACORN can either go away quietly, or face the wrath of the additional evidence. The ball is in ACORN's court.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 09:44 PM

And if they had any real evidence of the things they are accusing ACORN employees of doing, and they sat on it for several months, they would be accessories to the crime of trafficking in child prostitution. If they knew that ACORN employees were counseling people on how to set up child prostitution rings and they didn't go immediately to the authorities with that information, they would be aiding and abetting that crime themselves.

That's why they are only calling for the government to defund ACORN. They know they haven't got any real evidence of anything like what they are accusing ACORN employees of doing and they know that the authorities would not accept their fabricated "evidence".

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 09:38 PM

Doesn't matter how many tapes they have if they're all fabricated hoaxes. They can have a factory in FOX's basement cranking the SOBs out 24/7, and it still won't make any of it true.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 09:26 PM

They've got a third tape now and some other things. My guess is they've had this material for a while, and now they are dribbling it out. They are demanding the government de-fund ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 04:10 PM

No, it looks like there were probably grounds for dismissal. They were counseling people to not be entirely honest. But the part that was probably fabricated (and that the employees themselves say was fabricated) was the assertion that the employees were told that the people they were talking to were a prostitute and a pimp who were going to start a child prostitution ring. That's the part that was fake. And it's pretty obvious when listening to the questions and the responses that the employees were answering different questions than the ones we heard on the video.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 04:04 PM

If the tapes are fake, the people who were fired are probably lining up to file a suit against ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 03:47 PM

It's been doctored all along. It is obviously edited and overdubbed. There are blank parts and obvious edits. Until the makers of the film can show that they didn't fabricate the "evidence" they say the video represents, it couldn't possibly stand up in a court of law. And if it can't stand up in a court of law, it can't be taken as fact. It's an obvious fake.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 03:40 PM

"The employes are on ACORN time..."

C'mon PDQ... you can do better than THAT to connect a couple stupid people's flaws to the principles of an entire organization....

It seems to me that the doubtful "plausible explanations" started with the rigged 'sting' in the 1st place.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 03:16 PM

Oh, now it's supposed to be "doctored tape".

No evidence of that. It's just a lawyer's attempt to deflect the heat with a "plausible explanation". We all saw that trick pulled for eight years under Bill Clinton.

The employes are on ACORN time and are clearly advising the young couple to break the law and to lie on their government loan application.

Sounds like federal laws are being broken here. Is Eric Holder listening? Doubtful that he cares.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 03:11 PM

I would suggest that they didn't find any "suckers". I would suggest (and the evidence does appear to back this up, and ACORN's attorney is threatening legal action on the basis of this) that what happened was that the people who made the films had tried unsuccessfully for months to find a "sucker" and when they couldn't find any, and in their desperation to smear ACORN, they resorted to falsifying the evidence.

There still is zero proof that things happened the way the makers of the video have tried to make them look, and more than ample evidence that they fabricated the whole thing.

That's not entrapment. That's something else entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 03:02 PM

and in any case, I wonder if 'entrapment' is involved in any of this. I have seen no assertions that ACORN employees had suggested any illegal activity of this sort before Fox invented the idea and went out to see if if they could get someone to bite.
The claim by ACORN is that they pulled these 'stings' for several months before they got any suckers. I'd venture that in almost any large organization, 'some' lower level employees could be found who would say similar things. Remember, there is not even any allegation by FOX that ACORN employees did anything more than offer 'suggestions'.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 02:48 PM

On the other hand, the video contains both images as well as conversation. Surveillance cameras do not record sound. So ACORN may have some grounds for action in that regard as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 02:39 PM

But doctoring a tape for the purpose of making it look like something happened that didn't, and then using it to defame people certainly is actionable in court.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 02:34 PM

There is a fine line here that some people are blurring.

I believe it is illegal to record voice and conversations. It is not illegal to record images or then all video survaillence
cameras, such as in a banks or convenience stores, would be illegal.

Also, if this is illegal, 60 Minutes has been breaking the same laws for over 40 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 02:14 PM

Go to the page Carol C links to and read the PDF files at the bottom, from ACORN's law firm to Fox News.

You will soon see that there is more to the story.
Fox 'may' have broken the law itself by making ANY videos that all parties did not consent to, and possibly by altering them before broadcast.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 02:12 PM

Letters from Acorn's attorney to Roger Ailes, FOX president...


Dear Mr. Ailes:

The Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now ("ACORN") has begun a careful investigation into the doctored videotape being played by FOX News, on line and on the air, allegedly showing an ACORN staffer in Baltimore giving dubious tax advice to people claiming to be a pimp and a prostitute.

It is very clear that the questions being asked are a voiceover, placed on the tape by the film maker. The staffer involved claims that the questions she was asked were not the questions asked by the voiceover online. In face, she denies ever giving tax advice to people identifying themselves as a pimp and a prostitute.

These tapes were clearly filmed several months ago. They are not "news"; they are a form of "art". FOX News certainly had time, if it believed that the tapes had news value, to ask ACORN to review the tapes and to comment about their accuracy.

It is ACORN's position, at this time, that the videotape is doctored and that the voiceovers change the real dialogue. We demand, as counsel to ACORN, that FOX cease publication of these tapes unless it can produce proof that the conversations actually took place.


Dear Mr. Ailes:

As a follow-up to my letter of September 10, 2009 concerning FOX News' publication of videotapes purporting to show ACORN staffers giving tax advice to an actor posing as a prostitute.

After looking at the law, it is our conclusion that the filming and broadcast of the conversations at the Baltimore ACORN offices violates (...)10-42(a)(1) of the Courts and Judicial Proceedings Article of the Maryland Code, which makes it unlawful to willfully intercept, endeavor to intercept, or procure any other person to intercept any oral conversation unless all parties to the communication consent. FOX News, the filmmakers, and the producer of the videos have clearly violated this statute. It is also our belief that the tape broadcast today, involving ACORN's Washington, D.C. office, violates (...)23-542 of the D.C. Code in that the conversation was recorded for no purpose other than to cause injury.

ACORN and the women whose conversations were taped have authorized us to commence an action for damages and injunctive relief addressed to FOX News, the producer of the videos, and the filmmakers. We demand, in advance of that litigation, that FOX immediately withdraw the videos from the air and from the internet until a court rules on the lawfulness of the distribution and broadcast of the videos.

(Links to PDFs contained in the ACORN link in my previous post.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 01:55 PM

Statement from Bertha Lewis, Chief Organizer, ACORN Regarding Recent News Reports

The relentless attacks on ACORN's members, its staff and the policies and positions we promote are unprecedented. An international entertainment conglomerate, disguising itself as a "news" agency (Fox), has expended millions, if not tens of millions of dollars, in their attempt to destroy the largest community organization of Black, Latino, poor and working families in the country. It is not coincidence that the most recent attacks have been launched just when health care reform is gaining traction. It is clear they've had these tapes for months.

We are their Willy Horton for 2009. We are the boogeyman for the right-wing and its echo chambers. If ACORN did not exist, the right-wing would have needed to create us in order to achieve their agenda, their missions, their ideal, retrograde America. This recent scam, which was attempted in San Diego, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Philadelphia to name a few places, had failed for months before the results we've all recently seen. I am appalled and angry; I cannot and I will not defend the actions of the workers depicted in the video, who have since been terminated. But it is clear that the videos are doctored, edited, and in no way the result of the fabricated story being portrayed by conservative activist "filmmaker" O'Keefe and his partner in crime. And, in fact, a crime it was - our lawyers believe a felony - and we will be taking legal action against Fox and their co-conspirators.

We will not be intimidated by this international conglomerate, which has made as its mission the destruction of our organization. ACORN members are committed to the empowerment of their communities - Black, Latino, poor, and working families – at the deepest level. We are an organization committed to halting the foreclosure crisis and keeping people in their homes. We are an organization committed to ensuring quality, affordable health care for every American. We are an organization that will not be stopped in our commitment to our members and our communities...

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 01:44 PM

Third strike for ACORN:

The scandal surrounding the left-wing activist organization ACORN has spread to New York, with employees at its Brooklyn office caught on video helping supposed ladies of the night get loans for their dream houses of ill repute.

Rather than reminding the women that prostitution is dangerous and illegal and advising them to change their careers, counselors at the social-services group shockingly offer suggestions on how they can launder their earnings.

"Honesty is not going to get you the house," a loan counselor at the offices told two activists posing as a mortgage-seeking pimp and prostitute.

"You can't say what you do for a living."

ACORN workers in two other cities, Baltimore and Washington, DC, had already fallen hooker, line and sinker for the hidden-camera sting operation by two conservative activists.

Four ACORN employees have been fired as a result of the earlier videos, and last Friday the Census Bureau severed its ties with the group, whose members had been hired to do canvassing during the 2010 census.

Mayor Bloomberg spoke out on the controversy today.

"Prostitution is illegal in this state and I don't know why they would -- why an organization like ACORN, who's trying to encourage voter turnout and voter registration, why they're getting involved in any of that stuff," Bloomberg said. "But clearly it's not appropriate and they shouldn't have been doing it. Whether they broke a law or not I don't know. You'll have to talk to the legal (authorities)."............

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 10:15 PM

It's not that difficult to prove that voter fraud is extremely rare. Allegations of voter fraud (one person attempting to cast a vote under someone else's name) are made quite a lot, and almost none of them turn out to actually be legitimate cases of voter fraud. They almost always turn out to be cases of human error or two people having the same name and birthdate, or people voting by absentee ballot before the election and then dying between the time they send in their vote and the actual election day.

On the other hand, election fraud, one example of which would be purging the voter rolls illegally as has happened in recent elections, is a real problem and has resulted in large numbers of people being disenfranchised.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 09:03 PM

Carol - How would you ever prove that? LBJ used to laugh and joke, and prided himslelf on winning elections with fraudulent votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 04:17 PM

Whether or not that is true, it has nothing to do with ACORN. However, while there are a lot of accusations of voter fraud in US elections (in particular, those that benefit the Democrats), the vast majority of those accusations are without any basis in fact. There is far more election fraud being engaged in by Republicans, that effects vastly larger numbers of people, than there is people casting votes fraudulently in favor of Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 04:13 PM

I would agree, the Democrats gain from large numbers of people voting, whether those voters are legally in the country, properly registered, or vote in multiple precincts doesn't seem to concern them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 04:08 PM

The Democrats don't use suppression of votes as a tactic. That tactic doesn't serve them. It only serves the Republicans. The Democrats benefit from large numbers because the majority of people don't benefit from Republican agendas. That's why it is a specifically Republican tactic - republicans don't do as well as the Democrats when there are large voters turnouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 08:48 AM

Of course, isn't that reason enough. The other side does the same kind of thing every chance it gets. That's the beauty of a two party system.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 12:38 AM

The Republicans are targeting ACORN for one reason only. We know they don't give a shit about any of the things they are accusing ACORN of, because they do many of the same and also many worse things themselves. The only reason the Republicans are gunning for ACORN, is because they register a lot of Democratic voters. Because the agenda of the Republicans is so completely detrimental to the well being of the majority of Americans, and to this country, the only way they can get elected is to suppress the votes of those who vote for Democratic candidates. That's it. That's the only reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 12:14 AM

Next thing ya know, those brainless jerks will be smoking weed and saying Who cares???

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 06:08 PM

I love it!!!

Here a couple of low level punks might or might not have done something as ACORN volunteeers/employees... Who cares???

I mean, let's keep things in some level of perspective here... Look at the number of Repubs who have been caught doin' stuff that the good reverand said not to do, including trying to solicite homosexual sex... Throw in assholes, who BTW would have been shot or arrested had they been lefties, showing up with guns at protests where the president is speaking... Then you have all the lies... Way too many to keep track of... Death squads and death camps and, henny penny, anything else that anyone can think up and what???

A couple ACORN folks might have........

Beam me up... The Repub apologists have had their brains sucked out by aliens and are now operating completely brainless...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 05:53 PM

Carol, I would agree that Republicans are no better and maybe worse than Democrats. After all, they're all politicians.

               ACORN, on the other hand, could have a meaningful role to play in the public arena if it would tighten up its management and maybe limit itself to things in which it has more experience. Much of the public sees it now as a huge loosely affiliated group controlled by political operatives who are simply in it for what they can get for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 02:39 PM

Considering all of the coverup activity that The Family is guilty of, for instance covering up a Republican lawmaker's affair with one of his staffers (and the wife of another staffer), by insisting that they both be paid quite a lot of hush money, I would say that the Republicans are not any better than the Democrats in that respect, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 02:16 PM

"Republicans are not in a position to point fingers at anyone for either engaging in Gay sex, or for paying for any kind of sex."

             No, but when it's "sex" is sticks to the Republicans more, and when it's "crime" it sticks to the Democrats. It seems to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 01:23 PM

Suggested reading:

Idiot America: How Stupidity Became a Virtue in the Land of the Free by Charles P. Pierce. 2009.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 12:53 PM

Someone is sure going to a lot of work 'researching' this & other stories about flaws in people who happen to be associated with certain groups.

If one likes that sort of research, and is willing to both dig AND design 'stings', it is possible to create salacious and disreputable scenarios about almost any groups....from the College of Cardinals to the Republican National Committee to the Boy Scouts.

It takes a lot more to actually show that a group as a whole is corrupt or seriously flawed¹, but these days they aren't trying to get evidence that would stand serious scrutiny....they only want headlines where they can link one or two examples in the same paragraph, then make insinuations that will be believed by those who want ANY excuse to keep pressure on group "X".

It is nasty politics, but it often does what they want.




¹(well, except in the case of the Republican National Committee, maybe...)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 11:56 AM

So Whom do you claim is pointing a finger at whom?

NYT:

Two prominent national nonprofit groups are reeling from public disclosures that large sums of money were misappropriated in unrelated incidents by an employee and a former employee. The groups, Acorn, one of the country's largest community organizing groups, and the Points of Light Institute, which works to encourage civic activism and volunteering, have dealt with the problems in very different ways.

Acorn chose to treat the embezzlement of nearly $1 million eight years ago as an internal matter and did not even notify its board. After Points of Light noticed financial irregularities in early June, it took less than a month for management to alert federal prosecutors, although group officials say they have no clear idea yet what the financial impact may be. A whistle-blower forced Acorn to disclose the embezzlement, which involved the brother of the organization's founder, Wade Rathke.

The brother, Dale Rathke, embezzled nearly $1 million from Acorn and affiliated charitable organizations in 1999 and 2000, Acorn officials said, but a small group of executives decided to keep the information from almost all of the group's board members and not to alert law enforcement. Dale Rathke remained on Acorn's payroll until a month ago, when disclosure of his theft by foundations and other donors forced the organization to dismiss him.

"We thought it best at the time to protect the organization, as well as to get the funds back into the organization, to deal with it in-house," said Maude Hurd, president of Acorn. "It was a judgment call at the time, and looking back, people can agree or disagree with it, but we did what we thought was right." The amount Dale Rathke embezzled, $948,607.50, was carried as a loan on the books of Citizens Consulting Inc., which provides bookkeeping, accounting and other financial management services to Acorn and many of its affiliated entities.

Wade Rathke said the organization had signed a restitution agreement with his brother in which his family agreed to repay the amount embezzled in exchange for confidentiality.

Wade Rathke stepped down as Acorn's chief organizer on June 2, the same day his brother left, but he remains chief organizer for Acorn International L.L.C.

He said the decision to keep the matter secret was not made to protect his brother but because word of the embezzlement would have put a "weapon" into the hands of enemies of Acorn, a liberal group that is a frequent target of conservatives who object to its often strident advocacy on behalf of low- and moderate-income families and workers.

Wade Rathke said he learned of the problem when an employee of Citizens Consulting alerted him about suspicious credit card transactions. An internal investigation uncovered inappropriate charges on the cards that led back to his brother. Clearly, this was an uncomfortable, conflicting and humiliating situation as far as my family and I were concerned," he said, "and so the real decisions on how to handle it had to be made by others."

The executive director of New York Acorn, Bertha Lewis, who has been named director of an interim management committee set up to run the national group's day-to-day operations, said Dale Rathke was paid about $38,000 a year but that none of that money was used to pay back Acorn.

Instead, she said, the Rathke family has paid Acorn $30,000 a year in restitution since 2001, or a total of $210,000.

A donor has offered to give Acorn the rest of what the Rathkes owe, and an agreement to that effect should be finalized in coming days, Ms. Lewis said.

"Now that this is under our watch, we are putting financial auditors in place, legal counsel in place, a strong management team in place to make sure this organization moves forward for another 38 years," she said. "I will not allow and the board will not allow something like this to happen again."

But the fact that most of the handful of people who did not disclose the fraud when they learned of it eight years ago still work for Acorn or its affiliates concerns many of the group's financial supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 11:13 AM

Republicans are not in a position to point fingers at anyone for either engaging in Gay sex, or for paying for any kind of sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 11:07 AM

The Washington Post:

..Although Barney Frank [avid defender of Acorn] and Gobie differ in some details of their relationship, they agree on the story line. They met on April Fool's Day 1985. The representative answered a classified ad in the Washington Blade, the local gay weekly. "Exceptionally good-looking, personable, muscular athlete is available. Hot bottom plus large endowment equals a good time."

Then in his third term, the 45-year-old representative had not yet stated his homosexuality publicly. He paid Gobie $80 in cash for sex.

Gobie, then 28, was one of many young men "freelancing" in male prostitution. Gobie said he was born in Boston and grew up in a military family. He has felony convictions for possession of cocaine, oral sodomy and production of obscene items involving a juvenile.

Gobie and Frank say they became more friends than sexual partners. Gobie says he attended a bill-signing at the White House, and helped coach and played left field for Frank's team in the Congressional Softball League. "I was the star player," Gobie said.

Frank began to help Gobie financially, paying his attorney and court-ordered psychiatrist. The House member also said he hired Gobie as a personal aide, housekeeper and driver, but Gobie said that was a "cover story" concocted for probation officers.

In late 1985, Gobie says, he began to use Frank's apartment and two other locations for prostitution. Frank knew about the prostitution all along, but it was never explicitly discussed, Gobie says.

"He knew exactly what I was doing," Gobie said. "It was pretty obvious. If he had to come home early {from work}, he would call home to be sure the coast was clear . . . . He was living vicariously through me. He said it was kind of a thrill, and if he had been 20 years younger he might be doing the same thing."

Frank denies that he knew, saying he learned from his landlord and kicked Gobie out in August 1987. Gobie supports this part of Frank's story.....

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 09:26 AM

Yo, Sawz!

You want to rant about whorehouses & prostitution & all that, check into the doings at the C Street House of Rep. Chip Pickering, Sen. John Ensign, & Tim & David Coe of "The Family".

There's something to get upset about.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 08:49 AM

Probably the people who originally founded ACORN had all the best of intentions. But the organization seems to be so loosely constructed that anybody and everybody can just drift in and out at will. Some of these players are bound to be bad actors, working for themselves and not for the organization.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 04:57 AM

But if the people making the videos are editing them to falsely portray the actions of the ACORN workers, then it really doesn't matter how many offices they appear to show this kind of activity. And we don't know yet whether or not that is what they did. There has been obvious editing and there are areas where the film goes black. So far I have not seen any legitimate explanation for this, and editing a film of this sort does make it look suspicious.

Until we know what editing was done and how faithful the end result was to what actually happened, we won't know whether or not anyone did anything illegal. If the videos couldn't stand up in a court of law, they also shouldn't stand up in the court of public opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 11:23 PM

For all the Acornistas:

Liens on ACORN in New Orleans

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 11:19 PM

Sorry. That should have read "11 workers".

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 11:15 PM

Funny thing that this article in the Baltimore Sun does not mention Fox News or Hannity.

ACORN, prostitution and tax evasion

Want to confirm all the negative impressions you may have gotten about ACORN from its many critics? Watch this video.

Yes, taped with a hidden camera, two Baltimore ACORN workers give advice to a man and a woman identifying themselves as a pimp and a prostitute on how to evade the authorities and cheat on their taxes, including how to claim 13 underage El Salvadoran sex slaves as dependents. At no point in the video do the ACORN workers bat an eyelash or give any impression that they find this unusual.

Once the video became public, ACORN promptly fired the two workers, though it's hard to know how seriously to take the organization's reaction. Baltimore ACORN board chairman Sonja Merchant-Jones told WJZ-TV that "We've investigated and we found nothing that they did to be illegal. Absolutely zero." Really? Advising someone to claim girls trafficked into the country illegally as sex workers as dependents on her tax returns?

At the end of the day, though, what does this prove? Certainly that these two ACORN workers displayed astonishing stupidity. But does it show that ACORN is as lawless as its critics contend? It's important to note that the two filmmakers, Hannah Giles and James O'Keefe, were turned away when they tried the same stunt in other cities. If they wanted to prove something about the organization as a whole, they might have tried a less salacious scenario. Of course, that would have been much less likely to rocket them to YouTube and Fox News stardom.

UPDATE: There's a second video out now of the same pair doing the same thing at the Washington ACORN office. In this case, the workers suggest a way that Ms. Giles could set up a phony business to conceal the nature of her earnings.

SECOND UPDATE: For those of you criticizing me for defending ACORN here, I'd like to say the existence of the second video has erased what little benefit of the doubt I was willing to extend before.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 11:11 PM

The two workers in Florida were found and turned in by ACORN itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 10:47 PM

Keep beating the shit out of those straw men. That way you won't have to admit to the corruption within Acorn.

AP:
LAS VEGAS — A former Las Vegas director for a political advocacy group accused of illegally paying canvassers to register voters during last year's presidential campaign has pleaded guilty to a reduced charge and agreed to testify against the group and another employee.

Christopher Edwards pleaded guilty this week to two gross misdemeanor counts of conspiracy to commit the crime of compensation for registration of voters. He agreed to testify against the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, known as ACORN, and Amy Busefink, a former regional voter registration director.

The case threatens the group's ability to operate in Nevada, with the possibility that the group could have its status as a nonprofit corporation revoked, said Conrad Hafen, chief deputy attorney general for Nevada.

Hafen's said Edwards' testimony strengthens the state's case against ACORN and Busefink.

"It adds to the evidence that we already have," Hafen said Wednesday. "It makes a strong case that much stronger."

Busefink's lawyer, Kevin Stolworthy, said she plans to fight the charges. A lawyer for ACORN did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment from The Associated Press.

ACORN spokesman Brian Kettenring called the plea deal a "desperate attempt to get publicity and grab headlines."

"The prosecution is clearly willing to cut a deal with an admitted criminal," Kettenring said. "Shame on them."

Prosecutors said in court documents that Edwards, Busefink and ACORN created a bonus incentive program that paid canvassers an extra $5 per shift if they turned in at least 21 voter registration cards at the end of the day. Prosecutors said violates state laws that prevent a system that pays workers based on the number of registrations they turn in.

Stolworthy said Busefink, now living in Seminole, Fla., told Edwards not to use the so-called "blackjack" plan but he did anyway.

"When she found out about it she told him to stop," Stolworthy said. "This guy was the instigator of this and the person who dreamed it up and they're giving him a break to go after others who told him not to do it."

Edwards is scheduled to be sentenced Nov. 17. Under the plea deal, prosecutors are recommending that he receive informal probation, pay a $500 fine and perform 16 hours of community service.

The case is the result of an investigation that began last year into the group that works to get low-income people to vote.

In October, the secretary of state's office raided an ACORN office in Las Vegas after complaints surfaced that the group was turning in bogus voter registration forms. Secretary of State Ross Miller said at the time that some of the registrations included forms for football stars Tony Romo, Terrell Owens and the Dallas Cowboys starting lineup.

ACORN officials at the time said they separated and identified registrations that they thought were fraudulent when they turned them into the Clark County registrar. The group said the law prevented them from withholding registrations they thought were fake.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5isR8VrIHeni2GcKFAiy0OA1WG5kAD9A6AUB00

Subject: RE: BS: Census Rolls Acorn Under da Bus
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 09:57 PM

They should not have been involved in the census to begin with. They've proven they can't be trusted from the time of the election.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 09:54 PM

Well, Hannity has found a second office to fall for it, and now he's determined to cut off all federal funding for ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 09:44 PM

One ACORN office reported the attempt to police...and despite what SAWZAW says, no "office" cooperated, only a couple of stupid lower level employees.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 09:31 PM

If ya put the veracity of the Associated Press up against that of Faux, 'scuse me, FOX news, well..............

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 07:50 PM

We don't know that yet. We have yet to see the whole tape.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 07:26 PM

"a Fox sting" Bullshit

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 06:56 PM

Well, the AP news report says that a Fox sting got 2 employees in one office to give tax advice to an alleged pimp and prostitute.   That would be one incident in one of Acorn's 1200 chapters.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 06:45 PM

Good news for all Acorn lovers:

Only 2 of 7 Acorn offices gave advice on how to operate a whorehouse with underage girls and how to avoid paying income taxes.

Subject: BS: Census Rolls Acorn Under da Bus
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 06:40 PM

After the revelation of a second Acorn office that gives advice on running whorehouses with underage girls and income tax evasion, The Census Bureau has severed all ties.

Harrumph.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jIhAM0M_KmmLaHqhwTafQag4nNdQD9ALCUJO0

---

Note that threads were combined, since there already was an active Acorn thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 01:48 PM

"...video-tape of an ACORN officials..."

actually, they weren't "officials", they were minor employees who were fired immediately. It's sad that people will stoop to such sleazy games, but it's even sadder that critics will USE such examples to attempt to tarnish the entire organization.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 11:39 AM

Actually, only working once is indicative of nothing at all.

If they try to pull it on many other offices with no success, and they succeed in only one location, what that means is that it's not a problem with ACORN, but rather a problem with two people employed by ACORN. Many companies and agencies that are good companies and agencies have people in them who do bad things that are not indicative of the legitimacy or the lack of it of those companies and agencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 11:36 AM

Yes, and it may not have even worked that many times. We'll see when they release the whole tape. And if they don't, we'll know that their lack of success led them to fake it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 07:47 AM

It probably only has to work once!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 01:08 AM

According to the report I just now read, the tape was edited and goes black in some areas. The report said that ACORN's spokesman isn't going to accept it as evidence of anything until he sees the whole tape.

He also said that these two FOX employees had tried to pull this same scam at other ACORN offices and failed.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: fumblefingers
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 11:26 PM

Why don't we stay on the subject--ACORN

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 10:01 PM

Yes, please, use it on religious evangelists. The sooner we could get rid of those slime-balls the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 09:59 PM

Indeed ACORN has criminal members. SOme which have aided or abbetted criminal activity and some who actively broken a law or laws.

Now lets use the same fine tooth comb on the military.

Or religious eveangelists.

Or you.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 09:50 PM

So now I see that Sean Hannity has video-tape of an ACORN officials helping some people set up a prostitution ring for underaged girls for El Salvador. Subsequently, ACORN fires the officials involved. Hannity says this is the end of ACORN.

               Aside from that, it kind of gives a bad name to community organizing.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:22 PM

Okay, Carol. I'll take your word for it, but I'll watch the development of future ACORN funding with interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 03:50 PM

It's not partisan out of the gate. The effect of their work may benefit Democrats more than Republicans, but that's more because of the way Republicans govern than because of any bias on the part of ACORN. ACORN works to help people in moderate to low income areas, and because of the basic philosophy of the Republican Party, moderate to low income people are almost always hurt when Republicans are in office. For this reason, people in those income groups tend to vote for Democrats (but not all of them do by any stretch of the imagination).

ACORN is not partisan. It is oriented to income levels and not political affiliations.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 03:43 PM

That's the problem, ACORN's work is partisan out of the gate. McCain was doing his civic duty as a sitting senator to make the ACORN efforts known to the public.

                      In any event, nothing more will probably come of it unless ACORN comes back to the public trough for more money.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 02:06 PM

That's where we disagree. McCain was trying to undermine ACORN's ability to do its work during a critical time in an election cycle. ACORN came to their own defense. That's not the same as campaigning against a candidate. ACORN should continue to receive whatever public funds they have received in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM

Carol - Unless ACORN is found guilty of fraud--with the exception of the folks who are being accused of theft--they didn't do anything illegal. It only comes into play when we are talking about rewarding them with tax payer money to conduct partisan activities. They should never see another dime of tax payer money.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:49 AM

Here's the report that ACORN put out in response to John McCain's advertisement which fraudulently accused ACORN of being responsible for the economic meltdown. ACORN wasn't engaging in partisanship when it defended itself from those fraudulent accusations. If McCain doesn't like people defending themselves against his fraudulent accusations, he shouldn't be making them in the first place...

http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12439&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=22393&tx_ttnews[backPid]=12384&cHash=c4cb0b9840

http://www.acorn.org/fileadmin/Reports/McCain_Report.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:23 AM

The Republican Party, as I have shown already, has always tried to prevent ACORN from registering voters. Because when the majority of the population of this country votes, the Republicans don't do very well, and they know it. They have to try to suppress votes in order to get elected. What they're doing it illegal, and I think the real issue at this point, is to start pressing charges against the Republican operatives who are fraudulently trying to suppress votes, like the ones who, in every presidential election, try to prevent ACORN from registering new voters.

The Republican Party hasn't been sorely used by ACORN. They have been defeated by ACORN. And that's as it should be. ACORN is acting entirely within the law, and the Republicans have been blatantly violating it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:32 AM

I think the Republican Party -- of which I an not a member -- feels pretty sorely used by ACORN after this election. I would be very surprised if they didn't try to head off any funding directed towards ACORN. It could be they don't have the numbers in Congress to prevent it.
                  On the other hand, if the Democrats feel strongly enough about it to push funding through, I think ACORN is going to look worse to the general public than it does even now.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:21 AM

Well, considering that most, if not all, of the allegations originate with the Republican party or points further right; considering that none of these allegations have been verified (although there may certainly be some ACORN employees at fault, many turned in by ACORN itself); and considering that "innocent until proven guilty" is a basic legal concept, I personally see no reason why they should be automatically excluded. Of course, that fact that everyone is entitled to his own opinion is also a basic concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 08:39 AM

The report is dated 10/16 because that's when it happened. There isn't much point in going forward with registration fraud now. The local authorities will simply have to sort out what they have, and they have all the time in the world to do it now. If the election had been closer, I suspect there would be more attention paid to it.

                     What is important now is to discourage any further attempt to generate public money for ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 08:21 AM

That report is dated October 16th, Riginslinger. It's interesting that it is just about impossible to find any report on the web dated after the election on the investigations into alleged registration fraud by ACORN employees. I wonder if they were all quietly dropped as no longer being important to the complaining parties?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 07:46 AM

Okay, they released information to the media that somebody else turned into an ad. Still, any standing the had of being nonpartisan goes out the window, and so should their funding. See attached:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/... by: Marcus Baram

    ...McCain accused ACORN of "maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy."

Today, the group fired back by releasing a report, "ACORN vs. McCain: The Real Story of the Financial Crisis 1999 to 2008," attacking McCain for his lack of warnings about the impending subprime mortgage crisis last year.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:45 PM

No they didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:28 PM

And they ran campaing ads against John McCain with public money.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:13 PM

They don't only register Democrats. They register people in other parties, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:53 PM

"'...said Pierce. "However, we know we will face attacks in the future from those who are scared that our good work brings power and a voice to our communities."'"


                   The problem is, the good work he talks about is partisan Democrat, and that's all right, but he shouldn't expect any additional funding from public sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:31 AM

In 2004, the Republicans tried to suppress votes (a form of election fraud) and cast doubt on the outcome of the election should the Democrat get elected, by doing the same thing to ACORN that they did during this election. This was the result in 2004/5. I expect we will see the same result this time around...


http://www.commondreams.org/news2005/1214-09.htm

'WASHINGTON - December 14 - Today, Project Vote congratulated the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) on the dismissal of the third and final voter registration fraud lawsuit brought against the group in 2004. ACORN, in partnership with Project Vote, ran the largest non-partisan voter outreach program in the 2004 election cycle, registering 1.15 million low-income and minority citizens in 26 states and contacting 2.3 million through Get-Out-the-Vote efforts. In 2004, several politically motivated law firms brought baseless charges of voter registration fraud against ACORN in an effort to inhibit its work to register low-income and minority voters.

"For twenty years, we have worked with ACORN to ensure the voices of low-income and minority Americans are heard at the ballot box," said Holli Holliday, National Director of Project Vote. "We have complete confidence in ACORN's quality control process and are not at all surprised these lawsuits and investigations have collapsed. Today, we celebrate this as a victory for voters."

One year after the contentious 2004 election, it is clear that politically motivated law firms and organizations leveled unfounded allegations of fraud against ACORN with the goal of tarnishing the community group's reputation and inhibiting its work. In recent months, three highly publicized legal challenges brought against ACORN staff have been dismissed or withdrawn for lack of evidence. In Ohio, a lawsuit funded by the conservative Free Enterprise Coalition and litigated by the law firm of Shumaker, Loop and Kendrick collapsed on October 28. Two Florida lawsuits, based solely on claims by convicted felon and ex-ACORN employee Mac Start and litigated by Rothstein, Rosenfeldt, Adler of Fort Lauderdale, were dismissed with prejudice. Stuart admitted to making false statements against ACORN.

"This outcome is vindication for our dedicated staff and volunteers who worked around the clock in the 2004 election to make sure the voices of low-income Americans were heard," said Tamecka Pierce of ACORN. "The conservative groups who leveled false charges should be held accountable – this kind of harassment is clearly designed to intimidate community groups who register people of color."

Further, criminal investigations responding to allegations of voter fraud recently ended in Colorado, Wisconsin, Florida, and Ohio after finding no evidence of wrongdoing by ACORN or any pervasive voter fraud. In Wisconsin, U.S. Attorney Steve Biskupic, a Republican appointed by President Bush in 2004, concluded, "We don't see a massive conspiracy to alter the election in Milwaukee, one way or another." In Ohio, a year-long federal, state, and local investigation ended with no federal indictments. "Our investigation is closed. No one was charged…the federal investigation is closed," said Assistant U.S. Attorney Bill Edwards in Cleveland.

ACORN uses a comprehensive quality control program developed by Project Vote. Separate quality control staff visually review the hundreds of collected voter registration applications to identify incomplete or suspicious applications, and then call applicants to verify the information on the applications. Before completed applications are submitted to election officials, they are photocopied (where allowed) and filed in order to create records to assist in the investigation of any concerns. ACORN maintains a zero-tolerance policy against fraud and, by implementing strong quality control procedures, is able to identify and terminate any employee submitting fraudulent registrations.

Project Vote and ACORN's comprehensive voter outreach methodology is regarded as one of the industry's best. In 2004, thousands of volunteers and staff helped register 1.15 million citizens in 26 states, and reached 2.3 million through Get-Out-the-Vote efforts. ACORN and Project Vote staff registered voters at high-traffic locations, such as grocery stores, farmers markets, and concerts, and contacted registered voters with reminders to vote by going door-to-door and calling them on the phone. The results were impressive: Project Vote and ACORN increased turnout by an average of 24% over 2000 turnout in targeted precincts, including an increase of 35% in Pennsylvania (19 points higher than state turnout increase) and 44.7% in Maricopa County, Arizona (12 points higher than the county increase overall).

"We are pleased to put these false accusations behind us and continue our work for voting rights, more affordable housing, better schools, and access to health care," said Pierce. "However, we know we will face attacks in the future from those who are scared that our good work brings power and a voice to our communities."'

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:35 AM

There's actually a fairly wide spectrum of opinion about Obama among American bishops. Only the most extreme conservatives would say it was wrong to vote for Obama. While American Catholic bishops are probably 100 percent opposed to abortion, some believe Roe v. Wade is here to stay, and it's time to start reducing the number of abortions by "changing hearts and minds" and by encouraging alternatives to abortion. It's just that the extremists are the ones who get the press coverage.
You will find a good number of Catholic priests and a huge number of nuns who supported Obama. The bishops tend to be more conservative - managers usually are.
Number 6 is correct in saying this:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Roman Catholics as a whole supported Obama .... they object to the Dem's stand on abortion ... but support their policy in regards to the ending of the war, their stand on immigration, their stand on worker's rights, health care, and the Dems' commitment to the poor, and their stand on the environment etc.

But a fair number of bishops think that abortion trumps all other issues, even though the Republicans haven't ended abortion although they have held the White House for most of the time since Roe v. Wade.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 09:08 PM

Well, McGrath, I would agree. Proof is proof and nothing is certain until or unless we have it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 07:12 PM

The same would apply if people had been defrauding ACORN by falsifying registration forms.

In both cases there would be a possibility that the organisation had been at fault for not having spotted it earlier etc, and that would merit investigation to find out whether that is the case or not. But there's no justice in treating such an investigation as proof of the organisation being at fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:29 PM

I would think that in that case, the FBI would be investigating Wade Rathke, and not ACORN, since ACORN was the victim of that crime and not the perpetrator of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:00 PM

"... allegations that Dale Rathke, the brother of ACORN founder Wade Rathke, had embezzled nearly $1 million..."

One might assume that the FBI has every right to investigate this chap since ACORN has received at least $32 million dollars of Federal taxpayer money in the last few years. This outfit also operates in more than one state which should trigger a Federal investigation as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:28 PM

They have to follow up on the reports regardless of whether or not they have any validity. That's not at all the same thing as investigating ACORN itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:25 PM

I can appreciate the political problems related to the whole thing, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:24 PM

Frankly, I don't see any difference between announcing that the FBI is investigating reports about falsified registration forms related to ACORN's activities, and simply saying, "The FBI is investigating ACORN."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:14 PM

I think Representative Blunt's pants are a little bit on fire.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/us/politics/17acorn.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin


'But law enforcement officials sought on Thursday to ratchet down speculation that the Federal Bureau of Investigation had begun a broader investigation into the group's activities. Some officials said privately that they were wary of being pulled into a highly partisan controversy so close to Election Day.

The officials said their investigation of Acorn's activities would, for now, focus on reports of voter registration fraud that have surfaced in several states...

...In a statement, Acorn said it had not been contacted by federal law enforcement agencies, and the group's leaders expressed confidence that "any legitimate review of Acorn by any law enforcement entity — be it local, state or federal — will determine that the organization has conducted itself properly."'


The FBI is not investigating ACORN. They were (I don't know if they still are or not) investigating specific reports of falsified registrations.

The FBI is also aware of the political nature of the reports against ACORN, and that's why they're downplaying their investigation into those reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: curmudgeon
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:03 PM

That "news" item is a month old!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:56 PM

Blunt: News of FBI's Investigation of ACORN a Welcome Development
House Republican Whip Roy Blunt
WASHINGTON, Oct. 16 — House Republican Whip Roy Blunt (Mo.) applauded reports this afternoon that the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has opened an active investigation into whether the left-wing advocacy group ACORN has violated federal election law by fostering and promoting a national program of voter registration fraud.

Blunt issued the following statement:

"Last week, I was proud to join three former secretaries of state now serving in Congress, as well as our ranking members on the Judiciary and Administration committees, in calling on the Justice Department to stand up in defense of the sanctity of Americans' right to vote -- and, as important, their right to be assured that vote counts.

"I want to applaud the Department of Justice for taking this important step, and associate myself with the efforts of Leader Boehner to ensure not one more dime of taxpayer money is diverted into the coffers of this organization until Justice completes its review and determines whether ACORN's actions merit criminal prosecution."

Advertisement
NOTE: The Associated Press reported today that the FBI is actively pursuing leads in the investigation of ACORN. Word of the investigation comes less than a week after Blunt joined Reps. Candice Miller (R-Mich.), Vernon Ehlers (R-Mich.), Dean Heller (R-Nev.), Tom Cole (R-Okla.), and Lamar Smith (R-Texas) in sending a letter to the Department of Justice urging it to act. That letter is available here,

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM

ACORN is not under investigation by the FBI. Some of ACORN's former employees are under investigation by the FBI.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:40 PM

"Considering the fact that it has already been established that ACORN has not engaged in any unlawful activities or voter registration fraud,"


                   It has not. They are still under investigation by the FBI.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:10 PM

The concern seems to be about worries about embezzlement and possible failure to be careful enough about avoiding registration fraud, rather than about whom the newly registered voters might choose to vote for, which is entirely up to them.

As the spokesman bishop is quoted as saying there "Non-partisan voter registration, especially in poor communities, is important and needed work. Too often, poor voters are not registered or are not encouraged to participate in the vital choices that affect their families and communities."

The legal status of abortion is an important issue, but it's not by any means the only one.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM

The Church may have banned donations to ACORN after hearing about the embezzlement, but they said the ban on donations to ACORN won't be lifted "'until and unless it is clear that CCHD funds will not go to an organization that has engaged in unlawful activities or voter registration fraud'", and "the church has "severed ties" with ACORN and there are no plans for further discussion at this time".

Considering the fact that it has already been established that ACORN has not engaged in any unlawful activities or voter registration fraud, the fact that the church is pretending that this is not the case suggests to me that they have a different reason for their ban on donations to ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:45 PM

More Catholic voted for Obama than not, it's the Church that's against Obama not the members. It seems as if the Church is not in step with the members in the same way that our Government for the past 8 yrs has not been in step with it's citizens. Maybe the chruch should become more democratic & allow it's members to vote on who should become Bishops, Cardnails Pope (he,he) rather than electing from within their own self interests.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:37 AM

This from the article posted:


The Catholic Campaign for Human Development froze its contributions to the group in June amid allegations that Dale Rathke, the brother of ACORN founder Wade Rathke, had embezzled nearly $1 million.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:35 AM

ok ... thamks guys for the info .... maybe that explains it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:23 AM

The Catholic Church hierarchy was against Obama because he is pro-choice. There were certainly Catholics who ignored what the church hierarchy was telling them, but the church itself says Catholics can't vote for pro-choice candidates and be good Catholics.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:12 AM

You would think that all the other concerns that match Catholic doctrine would matter...but they don't. The official Catholic position is anti-Obama. Abortion outweighs everything else combined.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:09 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Roman Catholics as a whole supported Obama .... they object to the Dem's stand on abortion ... but support their policy in regards to the ending of the war, their stand on immigration, their stand on worker's rights, health care, and the Dems' commitment to the poor, and their stand on the environment etc.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:48 AM

The story I read (which is the one that was posted) said this...

However, he said, the ban on donations to ACORN won't be lifted "until and unless it is clear that CCHD funds will not go to an organization that has engaged in unlawful activities or voter registration fraud."

We already know that ACORN has not engaged in any unlawful activities or voter registration fraud, so I think the Catholic Church is just using that as cover for something they wanted to do anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM

The story I read that had to do with the Catholic Church cutting them off had more to do with the people in charge of the organization stealing money than anything to do with ACORN's involvement in illegal voting and registration.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 09:20 AM

Carol has a good point.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 09:19 AM

" In nearly every case that has been reported, it was ACORN who discovered the bad forms"--and reported them to the authorities.   Sounds like there must be more to this than the typical knee-jerk anti-ACORN view we've seen from some posters.

This sounds like half the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 09:17 AM

That's kind of not surprising since ACORN has been helping to register voters who are more likely to vote for the candidates that the Catholic Church doesn't want elected. In fact, to me, it looks like it was inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:56 AM

Well ... the elections over .. but the issue continues.

Catholic Church cuts off ACORN funding

I really don't think this is a GOP conspiracy, or even a Dem conspiracy at that.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:52 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:48 AM

Well, hopefully that will be the end of ACORN!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:07 AM

Lawsuit Adds to Turmoil for Community Group New York Times

In the wake of an embezzlement scandal that rocked the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or Acorn, two of its board members are seeking a court order to force it to hand over financial documents. They also are seeking to sever what they describe as continuing ties between Acorn and its founder, Wade Rathke, who resigned after it became public this summer that his brother had embezzled almost $1 million from the organization eight years ago. They contend that Mr. Rathke continues to direct the staff and expenditures.

"Acorn will suffer irreparable harm if the defendants are not restrained from contact with employees, expending and receiving, destroying or prohibiting the review of accounting and other data necessary to fulfill the fiduciary responsibility of the interim management committee," the board members, Marcel Reid and Karen Inman, stated in the petition. Both serve on a committee established to lead Acorn. The suit cites their concerns that money is being spent improperly and that important documents are being destroyed. It was filed on behalf of the entire 51-member board, but Acorn executives and some board members say Ms. Reid and Ms. Inman had no authority to file the suit or to claim to represent the board.

Acorn contends that Ms. Reid and Ms. Inman are trying to engineer a takeover, and on Tuesday, it demanded that the petition be withdrawn. "We found ourselves after the fact having filed a lawsuit against ourselves," said the Rev. Gloria Swieringa, a board member who leads the Maryland affiliate. "It was not authorized nor did we know anything about it until this firestorm over it erupted."

The suit is a sign of the turmoil that has rocked Acorn since the embezzlement by Dale Rathke, Wade Rathke's brother, was revealed to the board in June. The embezzlement, which Acorn said involved $948,607.50, was discovered in 2000 but concealed by senior executives until a whistle-blower told a foundation leader about it in May.

Wade Rathke was forced to step down as chief organizer, the top executive position, but he remained the chief organizer of Acorn International, which shares offices in Acorn's headquarters in New Orleans. The Rathke family pledged to repay Acorn.

"Even though his relationship with Acorn has been terminated," the petition says of Wade Rathke, "he continues to meet with staff members regarding this" — the embezzlement — "and other governance issues which impeded the ability of the interim management committee to perform its function."

Bertha Lewis, who was appointed interim chief organizer when Mr. Rathke stepped down, said the lawsuit was unnecessary. But Ms. Lewis echoed concerns about Mr. Rathke's continued involvement, saying Acorn had asked him to leave its offices. "Mr. Rathke stubbornly refuses to do that, so he sort of haunts that office, tries to talk to folks doing their work," she said.

Mr. Rathke said he had no role in managing Acorn. "I was with the organization for 38 years, and there are many people I hired and supervised, and I have great relationships with them," he said. "I haven't been involved in supervising them. Are they saying that simply because I breathe, I exist, they have a problem?" The suit put the extent of Dale Rathke's embezzlement at "an amount that may exceed one million dollars," more than the amount disclosed this summer.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 10:52 PM

It's all about funding at this point. If ACORN gets any, there'll be a revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 09:23 PM

Yup. That ad doesn't tell anyone how to vote. It tells people who are being disenfranchised to stand up for their right to vote. It's a good ad.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:32 PM

You really should have been able to do better than that, rig.

Here is what I take to be the ad in question. Very much to the point and effective.

Of course it doesn't say "don't vote for McCain and the Republicans", it just asks people to stop them trying to prevent people entitled to vote from voting, and obviously no one in a democracy should ever try to do that.

If I'd been ACORN I'd have phrased it slightly different - not "John McCain and the Republicans" but perhaps "people in the campaign of John McCain and the Republicans". That sticks to the proved facts. I'd think it more likely that the dirty tricks brigade operate on a deniable nod-and-a-wink basis, rather than relying on direct orders from the top.

But then McCain's very direct accusations against ACORN did rather smack of potential libel, so perhaps that's how you do it in the States. And if McCain and Co haven't been doing everything they can to stop the kind of voter suppression and exclusion that has been reported, which appears to have been the case, that's essentially the same as ordering it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:19 PM

200???

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:16 PM

That's the best I can do!



http://www.ktnv.com/global/story.asp?s=9261997

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:58 PM

Wouldn't it make sense to give a link to the ad or ads in question, rather than arguing in abstract terms?

No doubt they are somewhere on YouTube, along with lots of other stuff about this which are not ads.

We've got all this wonde4rful information technology. Why not use it?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:24 PM

Yes, well we can agree on that. But it will be interesting to see what happens the next time a bill comes up in Congress and ACORN funding is tied to it in some way.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:17 PM

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Whether or not those responsible for the legal side of the issue will agree with that opinion remains to be seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM

They've crossed the line and should never receive another dime of public money. That's all I'm saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:06 PM

McCain has been throwing around fabricated accusations against ACORN in order to discredit Obama and suppress votes. McCain has the bully pulpit. ACORN definitely has a right to defend themselves and the voters against these tactics of McCain's. If he didn't want them defending themselves so close to the election, he shouldn't be spreading lies about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM

Let's see, it's 4 days before the election, and they charge one candidate with vote tampering and not the other, while at the same time, they're under investigation by the FBI.

         If any Congress person votes to continue funding these jerks after the election, they ought to be locked up and never heard from again.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

They can definitely level charges of vote suppression against someone who is trying to suppress votes, regardless of whether or not he is a Republican candidate, and still receive federal money. That's their job.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM

Why not? The voters concerned could just as well be Republicans as Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:51 PM

"They didn't tell people to not vote for McCain. They're accusing him of disenfranchising voters,..."


          They can't do that and take public money as a non-partisan organization.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM

McCain made a direct accusation against ACORN on TV, accusing them of trying to undermine democracy in the way they were registering voters, virtually accusing them of treason. The accusation, presented as if it were a proven fact, has been been repeated many times. It's not unreasonable that ACORN should seek to rebut those charges.

The voters registered by ACORN will be free to vote for whomever they choose to vote for. Presumably a good number will in fact be voting for McCain, assuming they don't get disenfranchised as a result of the tactics adopted by people in his campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM

Has anyone commented upon the Republican Rout-the-Evangelical-Vote efforts?

I'm in favor of anyone trying to get everyone to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:33 PM

It's easy to make charges without substantiation. So far, all of the accusations made against ACORN have proven to be fabrications and distortions.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM

They didn't tell people to not vote for McCain. They're accusing him of disenfranchising voters, which is entirely consistent with their mission of helping people vote. That's not partisan. It's their job.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:27 PM

"...an analysis showing that the left-wing group ACORN, currently under investigation by the FBI for a "coordinated national scam" of voter registration fraud according to the Associated Press, has received at least $31 million in federal funding from various federal agencies since 1998. This total does not count the untold millions more that ACORN has received indirectly through state and local agencies that receive federal block grants."

And no, they do not register Republicans at all if they can avoid it.

In fact, many of the few Republicans registered are Democrat activists who are trying to make the count "look better". They will never vote Republican.

No group should get one penny of federal taxpayer's money to register voters unless they are non-partisan.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM

Their specific major goal: registering voters - IS non-partisan.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:20 PM

ACORN Releases TV Ad Accusing McCain Of Suppressing Votes
KTNV Las Vegas - Oct 29 3:43 PMThe national voter rights group has released a 30 second television ad accusing John McCain of trying to suppress the vote. ACORN is the target of several federal and state investigations for possible voter registration fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM

I'd like to see some documentation for the assertion that ACORN is running ads against McCain on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:55 PM

It is, however, in conflict with being non-partisan!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:53 PM

Most reasonable people KNOW that Acorn's leaders and political action committee are more liberal and supportive of Democratic ideals...which, in case you missed it, INCLUDES registering all voters, including Republicans! Being against the particulars of McCain's candidacy is not in conflict with believing that all Americans should register and be involved in the voting process.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 10:58 AM

Any illusion about ACORN being non-partisan can be put aside. They are now running ads agains McCain on television.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:58 AM

And the Democratic Party is responsible for those two guys in Tennessee who were trying to make a martyr out of Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 02:59 AM

If people are responsible for the people they employ, then the Republican party is responsible for those two guys who were arrested recently for falsifying voter registrations for the Republican Party. Which means that the Republican party is a corrupt, criminal enterprise.   I guess that means we need to purge millions of Republican voters from the voter rolls now.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Genie
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:59 PM

This report in the NYT says that a hight percentage of voter registration applications gathered by ACORN were either not new registrations or were rejected for one reason or another, but it doesn't suggest widespread fraud of any sort -- especially not "vote fraud" or fraud deliberately perpetrated by ACORN.

And perhaps the most important aspect of the Republican's assault on ACORN's legitimacy is the diversion of voter rights lawyers' funds and efforts away from protection of the public from ELECTION FRAUD and DISENFRANCHISEMENT and toward defense against ridiculous "voter fraud" charges.

This report also describes the criminal investigation of Mark Jacoby, of Young Political Majors, a firm hired by Republicans for voter registration. Jacoby allegedly used a fraudulent address to qualify for gathering signatures on petitions and registering voters in California and is accused having deceived Democratic party registrants into registering as Republicans. The firm of another Republican operative, Nathan Sproul, has also been investigated for voter registration fraud in several states.

[[ Group's Tally of New Voters Was Vastly Overstated

October 24, 2008
By MICHAEL FALCONE and MICHAEL MOSS

On Oct. 6, the community organizing group Acorn and an affiliated charity called Project Vote announced with jubilation that they had registered 1.3 million new voters. But it turns out the claim was a wild exaggeration, and the real number of newly registered voters nationwide is closer to 450,000, Project Vote's executive director, Michael Slater, said in an interview.

The remainder are registered voters who were changing their address and roughly 400,000 that were rejected by election officials for a variety of reasons, including duplicate registrations, incomplete forms and fraudulent submissions from low-paid field workers trying to please their supervisors, Mr. Slater acknowledged. ]]

NOTE: Lots of voter registration applications, regardless of who collects or submits them, are rejected, at least temporarily, because of incomplete information, clerical errors, or duplications.   (If you've sent in a voter registration application and not yet received your card a month later, you might well send in another one, just in case your earlier one was lost or destroyed.)
Also, part of the job of a voter registration drive is to help make sure people's registrations are up to date, so submitting new cards for people who have changed their names or addresses is quite valid and important.   Those voters would probably not have been able to vote without updating their registration info.


[[ In registration drives, it is common for a percentage of newly registered voters to be disqualified for various reasons, although experts say the percentage is higher when groups pay workers to gather registrations. But the disclosure on Thursday that 30 percent of ACORN's registrations were faulty was described by Republicans as further proof of what they said was ACORN's effort to tilt the election unfairly.

"We were wondering how many were Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse," said Danny Diaz, a spokesman for the Republican National Committee. "The group is really tainted, and any work they do is suspect."]]
This is, of course, silly.   Donald and Mickey aren't going to be issued voter registration cards or ballots, much actually vote or even try to.

[[Republicans had been prepared for months to make an issue of Acorn's registration drive. A year ago, the party's national committee anticipated the surge of new registrations by putting a map of the country on its Web site, labeled "You Can't Make This Up! Vote Fraud."

Democrats and officials with ACORN accuse Republicans of trying to manufacture a controversy to deflect attention from alleged voter suppression activities in several states. Election officials and experts say there is little chance that significant numbers of supporters of either party would actually try to vote through a fraudulent registration.

Over the last few weeks, the ACORN registration drive has become a flash point in the campaign when the flood of new voter registrations prompted complaints from election officials about the high number of improper submissions. State and local officials have begun investigations into possible fraudulent activity in at least 10 states.

If interviews with two dozen voters in the swing states of Florida and Ohio are any indication, Republicans' efforts appear to have resonated with some members of their own party as well as with some independents and Democrats.

"I'd have to see how bad it is and what happens," said Dorrie Cohen, an 82-year-old Democrat in Boynton Beach, Fla. "If it's very organized fraud, I think that I would question the election. If it's just a few people trying something, I don't think I would. However, there's so much on the newspapers and the TV about it, I imagine it will be organized."

Mr. Slater and ACORN officials have defended their voter registration work. They said that it remained technically difficult to weed out duplications without better access to election records, and that their internal auditing identified many of the fraudulent registrations, which they flagged for election officials to review.

"Everybody knows that when 1.3 million applications are submitted, not every single one of them gets on the rolls," said Brian Kettenring, a spokesman for ACORN. "That's common sense."

The Republican drive to publicize ACORN's problems has had another less visible impact on the race, shifting the focus of election lawyers in the homestretch to the Nov. 4 election. Much of the Democratic team of lawyers and operatives who had intended to work on monitoring voter rights at the polls has instead played defense the last two weeks, responding to accusations of fraud.

The Obama campaign has also sought to deflect Republican efforts to tie ACORN's registration campaign to the Democratic presidential nominee, Senator Barack Obama of Illinois. The Republicans highlighted a federal election filing by the Obama campaign that showed an $832,598 payment last February to an ACORN affiliate, Citizens Services Inc., for "staging, sound, lighting." The Republicans suggested that the payment was actually for voter registration. But the Obama campaign said it had mislabeled the payment, and it filed an amended report that reflects the money was for get-out-the-vote efforts.
In a letter on Thursday to Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey, the general counsel for the Obama campaign, Robert F. Bauer, said he worried that Republican Party officials or candidates would pressure the Justice Department to improperly involve itself in the election.

Accusations of impropriety by a Republican voter registration campaign surfaced this week in California, where the authorities arrested the owner of a firm hired by the California Republican Party to register voters. Officials said that the owner, Mark Jacoby, fraudulently registered himself at a childhood address to qualify for gathering signatures on petitions and registering voters.

Mr. Jacoby's firm, Young Political Majors, is also facing accusations of tricking residents into registering as Republicans by having them sign petitions seeking tougher penalties for child molesters.

Mr. Jacoby's lawyer, Dan Goldfine, said that the charges against his client were "baseless," and added that although the authorities have been looking into accusations that Mr. Jacoby's firm improperly registered voters, they did not charge him with those violations.
In June, federal election records show, the California Republican Party paid $175,000 for voter registration work to the firm of a Republican operative, Nathan Sproul, who has been investigated for voter registration fraud in several states. Mr. Sproul could not be reached for comment.

In interviews this week, ACORN officials said they had an extensive program to detect fraudulent applications, which included calling the registrants to verify information provided on the forms. They also said they had combed through electronic records from the group's field offices across the country, and that their internal audit did not show evidence of pervasive voter registration fraud.

Most of the registrations that were rejected were duplicate forms, followed by incomplete forms. The ACORN officials said their investigation found about 9,000 voter registration cards that were determined to be fraudulent. A lawyer for the group estimated that perhaps 5,000 to 6,000 more cards employees turned in were fraudulent. ACORN officials said that 20 percent to 25 percent of the applications it submitted were likely duplicates, 5 percent were incomplete, and 1 percent to 1.5 percent were fraudulent. Mr. Slater said the estimates were based on past registration drives and a sampling of this one.

ACORN officials said they were unable to provide a state-by-state breakdown identifying where the fraudulent voter registrations were submitted, but a spokesman said that at least some bogus cards cropped up in all 18 states where the group had major registration drives. ACORN conducted smaller drives in three other states.

Mr. Kettenring, the ACORN spokesman, said the number of fraudulent cards did not vary widely from state to state, but he identified Acorn's office in Gary, Ind., as a particular trouble spot. After ACORN officials identified the percentage of problematic cards to be "unsatisfactorily high," they shut down the office for three weeks beginning in late August, and brought in new management and canvassers before reopening it.

The group also said it was forced to fire 829 of the 10,000 canvassers it hired during the election for job-related problems, including falsifying registration forms. ACORN officials say they pay canvassers an hourly wage and not by the number of forms they obtain.
Mr. Kettenring said ACORN intended to change the language on its Web site to reflect that 400,000 of the 1.3 million registration submissions would likely be rejected by election officials, but said the group did not intend to be misleading.

In Las Vegas, where state officials raided ACORN offices this month to seize records, the county registrar of voters, Harvard L. Lomax, said his workers had found hundreds of potentially fraudulent registrations beyond those identified by ACORN.

"What this has done is undermined confidence in the system, because voters don't understand that we have checks and bounds," Mr. Lomax said. "I'm confident in the integrity of elections here."

Echoing other election officials, Mr. Lomax said registration fraud could be sharply reduced if registration workers were all volunteers. "I have a solution: Make it illegal to pay people to register to vote," Mr. Lomax said. "Money is the root of evil."

But ACORN officials say that paying workers helps their voter registration drives succeed in signing up large numbers of minority and low income voters.

Joseph Hickson, an automobile designer from Naples, Fla., who is registered as a Democrat, said the voter registration issue would be made moot by a large margin of victory for Mr. Obama.

"It really depends on how much of a landslide he has — if he has one," Mr. Hickson said. "If it's close there may be some questions."

Renee K. Feltz contributed reporting.

Copyright 2008 The New York Times Company]]

Sounds to me like "voter fraud" could only swing the election if a state's electoral college votes were "won" by a mere handful of votes.   
Even if voter registration fraud -- registering the same voter multiple times or registering dead people or fictional characters -- were widespread, it's hard to see how this could result in a lot of actual VOTES being cast fraudulently.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

Spread the wealth, that's what I always say.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM

It's an interesting kind of drift, isn't it - starts off being passionate supporter of one Democratic candidate. When she fails to win, switches to "nothing to choose between McCainn and Obama", moves on to "on balance McCain"; ends up praising Fox News, demonising Obama, and looking forward cheerfully to the prospect of Sarah Palin as president.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 03:05 PM

Rig:

I assume your eyes have always been brown?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:10 PM

"Spread the Truth About ACORN"


                The Republican Party and Fox News alreayd have!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM

Donna Brazile remarks:

"...The so-called ACORN scandal is no more than a few canvassers trying to meet their quota and make easy money by cheating the system.

Ask yourself how likely is it that someone would go through the effort and risk of submitting multiple false registration forms, find an accomplished forger capable of producing IDs of sufficient quality to trick election officials, and then spend Election Day racking up a couple extra votes at the potential cost of spending a decade in jail?

A simple cost-benefit analysis tells us this is not a reasonable or significant threat. The real threat here is the Republican Party using attacks on ACORN as a calculated strategy to justify massive challenges to the votes cast in Democratic-leaning voting precincts on Election Day. And this is what is truly outrageous, but where is John McCain's concern when it comes to people being harassed at the voting booth?

The same Republican Party shouting "Voter fraud!" is also furiously trying to prevent Ohio from registering voters at early voting sites and suing to shut down some early voting sites in Indiana.

Just as the GOP will use the so-called "Bradley effect" to explain away voting irregularities it created through voter suppression, it will use allegations of voter fraud to cover its efforts of voter suppression.

McCain and Republican candidates up and down the GOP ticket don't want increased voter turnout.

Let them sputter and fret. A swelling of the voter rolls strengthens our democracy. The more eligible voters we have participating in the process, the stronger we are as a nation -- and the more accurately the results on November 4 will reflect our nation's choice for president.

We must be vigilant in protecting people's right to vote, not vigilant in suppressing it. We must be vigilant that new voters aren't threatened, harassed or turned away. And we must be vigilant that resources like voting machines and poll workers are distributed appropriately to accommodate the projected influx of new voters.

Finally, we must be vigilant that this election, unlike 2000 or 2004, doesn't return conspicuous voting irregularities, and that those irregularities aren't left unchallenged.

We must be vigilant in the protection of our democracy because the way things are going in the United States right now, democracy may be the only valuable left in our national treasury."...

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Donna Brazile. (CNN)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:47 PM

Bobert cannot carry on a conversation with out injecting race into it.

He is the racist. He believes people of one race deserves different treatment from people of another race.

His type will keep racial prejudice alive forever.

If somebody does fraudulent things, race has nothing to do with it.

The organization that hires people that do fradulent things is responsible for the actions of the people they employ.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM

The kind of disenfranchisement the GOP is supporting is criminally abusive to the democratic ideals of the country.

Notice that they typically do not seek to disenfranchise the apathetic know-nothing voters who vote every year based on no information except the last burst of rumor.

They seek to disenfranchise those for whom a more equitable national organization would be beneficial.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:21 PM

Actually, that's no longer true. The internet has made it possible for Obama to raise a lot of money without having to use a lot of money in the process. Obama's organization is incredibly effective at harnessing the power of the internet, and that's how he has gotten most of his money. With that money he built a large and very effective ground organization that has multiplied the effect of the money he gets online, which allows him to buy advertising, and that generates more financial contributions. But it started with the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:08 PM

"He gets his funding through having an incredibly effective organization, both nationally and locally."


                  This is kind of a chicken-or-the-egg kind of a proposition. Without massive funding, an effective organization is impossible to construct--at least in America.

                   With the kind of funding that Move.On and others have been able to direct to Obama, there are any number of people who could do as well as he did.

                  If you're getting information about this from reading his book, one would only caution--consider the source.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:17 AM

I'm reading his book, Audacity of Hope right now. He won his Senate seat by driving all over the state of Illinois, just talking to people wherever he could get the chance, and winning them over to what he had to say... mostly by listening to them and then pointing out how much most people have in common and what can be done to bring people together rather than dividing them.

He doesn't rely on others to get his message across. He does a very good job of getting it across himself. That's why his rallies get such large numbers of people attending them. If he didn't have a message that people responded well to, it wouldn't matter how much effort MoveOn put out to try to get him elected. MoveOn is just another way to get information. They don't shape how people think.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:08 AM

Not hardly. He gets his funding through having an incredibly effective organization, both nationally and locally. I know, because I've done some volunteer work for his organization, and I've seen how it operates.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:05 AM

"His funding comes from millions of voters (in small amounts)."



                        Manipulated by one big media center!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:03 AM

I guess we haven't progressed as far beyond Jim Crow as we though we had.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 09:51 AM

From today's Guardian this piece about the efforts which are being made to stop people from being able to vote if it's thought they are likely to vote the wrong way:

The manipulation and intimidation that African-Americans must face in order to cast a vote will only get worse this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 03:49 AM

That's one of the reasons I prefer Obama to McCain this time around. His funding comes from millions of voters (in small amounts). His campaign has democratized how a campaign gets funded. So that makes him beholden to a lot of regular voters rather than a few special interests. I intend to hold him to a high standard if he gets elected, but at least he will know who he's going to have to answer to if he wants to get re-elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:53 AM

As posted before, by yours truly, its the corruption that is our biggest enemy..both in breaking the laws, and not enforcing the ones, that could clean house! The hypocrisy, and selective enforcement depending on the political agenda being promoted, without the will of the people, to me, makes virtually all politicians suspect!!

....As for 'Princess', the goldfish, she wasn't exactly bribed, but she went for it hook line and sinker!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Genie
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:47 AM

GfromS, I would welcome the government using RICO laws, with equal vigor and without bias, to investigate and prosecute any and all organizations suspected of either voter registration fraud, voter fraud, voter intimidation, or election rigging/tampering - or all of the above.

As for "Princess" being involved in "voter fraud," get some footage of her showing up at the polls to vote and you'll make a mint! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:20 AM

They wouldn't be in any trouble at all if they didn't break any laws. And they didn't. The Republicans have been saying all of this same stuff about ACORN since 2000. If there had ever been any truth to the allegations, ACORN would have been shut down years ago. Obviously, they haven't been, and obviously, there was never any truth to any of the allegations.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:13 AM

If the Attorney General's office went after ACORN, with the RICO statute, they'd be in a world of hurt!!

One to add to your list, Genie, They found a goldfish, named 'Princess' registered!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Genie
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:52 AM

Sawzaw: [[Acorn takes taxpayers money and pays people to register voters. Those people bribe people with cigarettes and cash to fill out multiple registration forms which is a felony.

If Acorn lets the people they pay with public funds from doing this, they are abusing the use of public funds.

"Sometimes, they come up and bribe me with a cigarette, or they'll give me a dollar to sign up," said Freddie Johnson, 19, who filled out 72 separate voter-registration cards over an 18-month period at the behest of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now.

"The ACORN people are everywhere, looking to sign people up. I tell them I am already registered. The girl said, 'You are?' I say, 'Yup,' and then they say, 'Can you just sign up again?' " he said. "]]

Come on, Sawzaw.   Sweeping generalization from a couple of anecdotal incidents?   Maybe Freddie Johnson's telling the truth. Maybe not. He could be just seeking publicity. He could be one of the people trying to sabotage voter registration efforts. Who knows?
But even if he's legit, it proves nothing except that one, or a few, ACORN workers tried to cheat ACORN.

Once again, ACORN DOES NOT ISSUE VOTER REGISTRATION CARDS or add people to the state's voter registration rolls. The state is not likely to issue voter registration cards to Disney cartoon characters, dead people, vacant lots, etc.   Especially if those "applications" have been flagged by ACORN as "questionable" or "suspect."   

Given the absurdly careless way that the Help America Vote Act was put together and run through Congress, it's far, far more likely that T. Boone Pickens will be kicked off the voter registration rolls in Texas because he goes by that name for business but the IRS and Social Security bureaucrats insist on identifying him as "Thomas B. Pickens."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Genie
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:36 AM

The minimum-wage ACORN worker (or whoever it was) who filled in fake voter registration applications SHOULD be prosecuted, mainly to discourage other shirkers and pranksters from pulling similar stunts (wasting ACORN's money, taxpayers' money, etc., and gumming up the important work of letting citizens vote). But that offense probably is, and should be, a misdemeanor, punished by a fine and/or community service.
The important crimes that are, or at least should be, felonies and that really need to be vigorously prosecuted are things like these:
~tampering with electronic voting (or vote-counting) machine software
~falsely "notifying" or advising citizens of changes in precincts, changes of election dates, etc.
~voter intimidation in the form of harassment of would-be voters by "challenging" their eligibility at polling places without probable cause.   (Note: someone's race, apparent ethnicity, gender, manner of dress, etc., or the location of the polling place is not probable cause for questioning someone's eligibility)
~voter intimidation by fraud, e.g., sending messages to students falsely informing them that if they vote at their campus location they will lose their scholarship eligibliity; sending messages to urban residents that if they have outstanding parking tickets or are late on child-support payments they will be arrested on the spot if they try to vote.
~deliberately omitting or distorting the name or party affiliation of a candidate on the ballot (e.g. leaving Bob Barr's name off the ballot, listing Barack Obama as "Barack Osama," or listing John McCain as an Independent).
~state election officials deliberately allocating disproportionately more voting machines to suburban precincts than to urban ones.

The various and sundry serious election fraud tactics are not going to stop or even slow down until some people face serious jail time for them.   (Fines won't do it, because they don't matter to rich people.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:35 AM

Yes, I hope the Democrats fight illegal voter disenfranchisement tooth and nail this time around.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Genie
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:40 PM

"If Acorn had been smart they would have burned the bad registrations rather than give zealots the opportunity to say that someone who registered as Harry Potter of Grifendor is tearing the fabric of democracy to shreds."
No way.   If they were even ACCUSED of selectively destroying voter registration applications -- much less, observed doing that -- they'd be subject to even more serious allegations, investigation, and prosecution.
Despite the Republican-driven and media-echoed brouhaha over "Mickey Mouse" and dead people trying to register, ACORN has broken no law by turning in those application cards.    In fact, in most states they're required to turn them in.

ACORN is an organization engaged in many projects, not just voter registration.   They do tend to focus their community work (on behalf of education, legal rights, etc.) on urban areas and do a lot of work with lower-income and minority people. In that sense, I guess you could say they tend to be "liberal" and work more with groups who tend to vote Democratic than with groups who tend to vote Republican. But that's not the same thing as being "partisan." Especially when it comes to voter registration drives.

BTW, there's nothing unethical or illegal about a nonprofit organization focusing most of its efforts on a subset of the community (e.g., Native Americans on reservations, inner-city disadvantaged youth, battered women, unwed teen mothers, African-American youth, etc.). Lots of nonprofits target subgroupds. They're just not supposed to discriminate in administering their services (e.g., refusing to let people register to vote unless they register as Democrats, refusing meals to non-Christians, etc.).

But I blame the Democrats -- and, yes, Barack Obama too -- for not using their media spotlight to set the record straight about the difference between "voter REGISTRATION fraud" (which, apparently, some people tried to commit, either out of laziness, a twisted sense of humor, or maybe even the attempt to sabotage ACORN), "VOTER fraud" (someone ineligible voting or voting twice or buying someone else's vote), and "ELECTION fraud" (the systematic kind, that changes the outcome of elections at the local, state, or national level).   

If the Democrats lose this time, in spite of exit polls that show them winning, they have themselves to blame for not raising bloody hell about the widespread ELECTION tampering that can so easily happen with massive voter registration purges, voter intimidation, inadequate facilities for voting (making wait times long), malfunctioning machines (e.g., broken machines), and electronic voting machines that use proprietary software and provide no transparency or means of checking the accuracy of the count.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:01 PM

Actually, Barry, I agree with you!..and if ACORN was helping those who can't make it to the polls, or facilitating them, in any way, to exercise their right to vote, well good for them. If it is used for the manipulation of anyone they are helping, to further a party's agenda, for a buck...well, that's a different story. Someone, somewhere can get to the bottom of this, and get it over with!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:46 AM

Yeah, apparently Saez is only interested in quoting Right wing propaganda which leave out the 99% of the folks at ACORN who abide by the law...

That is what is called "over generalization" and "over generalization" is the the basis of racism... Now we are back to the "Big Lies" of the 60's that are being dusted off and reused by the McCain folks...

Sawz will never see himself as a racist but you can take it to the bank that he his furthering racist propaganda here in Mudville...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 06:20 AM

So it appears that some people employed by ACORN have defrauded the organisation and broken the law. ACORN has tried to identify where this has happened,and has informed the relevant authorities. As a result it gets accused by partisan opponents of colluding with and encouraging the offenders.

This is a bit like saying that if someone on a check-out counter in a supermarket is short-changing the customers, the shop is to blame, especially if it takes steps to spot the offender and deal with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:23 PM

The only "news" source I can find the first quote in is the New York Post. We've already seen how they distort and fabricate things to suite their propagandist agenda. I think I'll reserve judgment on that one until I see it from a less propagandistic source. I didn't find any news sources for the second quote. Just blogs and forums.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:21 PM

"Okay, the truth about ACORN, is it is a corrupt political organization. A good place to start, to prepare one for higher office....and that's the truth!"

It's a damn shame that it's citizen groups & organizations like these that see to the needs of the voting public, espically those with limited resources, finiances & limited time, education & where all when it should be the right of every citizen to vote freely without the harassment & intimidation from the powers that be. Voting should be accessable & made easy to all. It should not be the responsiblity of anyone but the government's to make that happen. Voting in the US needs to be monitered by a world watchdog group just as we claim we should be watching other nations where we know that the electorical systems are tampered with by elected officials. The untracable & falable voting with diebold should be tossed & some are worried that ACORN is a threat, please. We've had less than a handfull of voter fraud cases throughout the whole country & millions have become disinfranshied, that's bullshit, who's the asshole here. The poor are screwed when it comes to voting, they have trouble with finding the time to vote, working 2 or more jobs with no time off, election day(s) (should be held over a long weekend-Friday-Saturday-Sunday) should be a work holiday. The poor ought to be offered FREE PUBLIC transportation to the polls, be shelterded for the elements if they have to wait hours to vote. Those that are raving about ACORN sicken me, they ought to live in the real world instead of looking around with their heads up their asses it's no wonder all they see is shit.
OK, "bring it on".

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:04 PM

"ACORN doesn't bribe people to fill out multiple registrations"

Read very carefully the things written in newspapers, not blogs:

Acorn takes taxpayers money and pays people to register voters. Those people bribe people with cigarettes and cash to fill out multiple registration forms which is a felony.

If Acorn lets the people they pay with public funds from doing this, they are abusing the use of public funds.

"Sometimes, they come up and bribe me with a cigarette, or they'll give me a dollar to sign up," said Freddie Johnson, 19, who filled out 72 separate voter-registration cards over an 18-month period at the behest of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now.

"The ACORN people are everywhere, looking to sign people up. I tell them I am already registered. The girl said, 'You are?' I say, 'Yup,' and then they say, 'Can you just sign up again?' " he said. "

Bobert can puff himself up all he wants and blame things on racial bias but it does not change the facts. Acorn is pissing his tax money away on frivilous illegal activities.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 09:38 PM

But it's true that as long as that kind of massive voter disenfranchisement is going on, this country really can't be considered a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

Video the Vote doesn't help prevent disenfranchisement for a lot of people, though (as much as I applaud their efforts). For instance, it doesn't help the people who are having to wait for hours in very long lines in Florida because the Republicans if Florida changed the law and severely decreased the number of hours the voting places could remain open. What they're doing could help the next election, but by then they'll have thought of new ways to disenfranchise voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 09:00 PM

Of course signing up to get registered is only part of actually getting to vote. This is an interesting initiative aimed to help bridge that gap, or at least show up when it doesn't get bridged - Video the Vote 2008:

Video the Vote is a national initiative to protect voting rights by monitoring the electoral process. We organize citizen journalists—ordinary folks like you and me—to document election problems as they occur. And then we distribute their footage to the mainstream media and online to make sure the full story of Election Day gets told.

Of course it is pretty weird to have a situation in which people feel this kind of thing is necessary. But it would appear that they are right to feel that.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:53 PM

Right, Carol...

That is why McCain is going around tellin' his folks that Obama wants to take their money away and give it to other people...

Of course, this isn't what Obama is talking about here but...

...what John McCain's supporters are hearing has nothing to do with reality... It has to do with the ol' Welfare Cadiallac Mother, a "Big Lie" from the 60's and that "Big Lie" has alot to do with race...

I mean, anyone old enough to actually remember the 60's remembers well the "Big Lies" that "The Establishement" used to portray Black people as lazy and no-good... The 60's was the decade of codified Jim Crow...

It is very sad that John McCain has chosen to resurrect the codified Jim Crow racism of the 60's but that is exactly what he is doing... The attak on ACORN is nothing more than yet another run of Jim Crowism... It's like when Redneck American cheered when Lester Maddox threatened to beat civil rights workers to death with a baseball bat...

Hey, let's get5 real here... There ain't no hidy holes here where racists herein Mudville can hide as they deliver one slam after another against an organization that is doing purdy much what the folks who Lester Maddox threatened to kill some 40 years ago...

I am sick that folks can actaully bullsh*t themselves into thinking they are on the "right side" on this argument when their only interest is keeping as many potential Obama voters away from the polls...

You all know exactly who you are...

And, inspite of your protestations, you are the unAmericans among US...

Square business...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:20 PM

That's true. The climate in the US has become (since Reagan got elected) one of blaming the poor for their misfortune. Anyone who tries to advocate for the poor (like ACORN, for instance) gets trashed in both political discourse as well as in the popular media. It's almost like people think poor people have some kind of contamination that rubs off on anyone who tries to advocate on their behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:16 PM

Yes, McG... In terms of actaul numbers there are alot nmore poor white people... But in terms or porportion, Blacks people still are disporportionatley pooree than whites... That is where race enters into the ACORN debate...

"Trailer trash" isn't a block of voters that can be pinned down but I would guess that most would vote McCain... But you don't find these folks in urban areas where ACORN does most of it's work... You find more Black folks...

Like I said, there is an under-current of racism in slamming ACORN for what it does...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:59 PM

So if Acorn can't pay a living wage, that seems to indicate they need more money, tied to a commitment to use that on higher wages.
................................
Yes, I understand that being Black and being poor go together disproportionately in the States (and not just in the States). And that is also true for Hispanic people. But I understand there are actually a lot more poor White people than poor Black people or poor Hispanic people in the USA. See here.

And my impression is that there are people who would shy away from making racist comments about poor Black or Hispanic people don't feel the same reluctance to use terms like "trailer trash" for poor Whites.

And I note that while your politicians are always taking about "the Middle Classes", those who are lower down the economic scale seem to be largely disregarded in public discourse.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:03 PM

I wasn't referring to opinion pieces in my 25 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM post. I was referring to articles that are presenting news items. Of course, people should use the same methods when debunking opinion pieces if those opinion pieces are being used as though they are supporting what someone is presenting as facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:55 PM

Yes, McG, it is also about class... But undeeneath it all it is also about race since a disporportionate number of poor people are also Black...

And thank you, Carol, for pointing out that I did not say anything close to what Sawz says I said about bribing people... That came straight out of his head... And its a lie... No two ways abnout it...
I don't think that Sawz has any idea how voter registration actually works... I do... I was the voter registration captain for the Obama team here in Page County... Those ACORN folks, like me and my folks. only present people an opportunity to register by filling out the forms... The forms then go to the "registrar" who checks for accuracy and to make sure that folks aren't allready registered... That is the real world... No bribery... No conspiracy... Just democracy at work...

Sawz must not like democracy at work since he makes every attempt to discredit the folks who are out there trying to get people to participate in democracy... I can't think of any other plausable reason why Sawz would be so critical of folks becoming voters??? Maybe he/she will explain wher he/she has against people having and exercising their right to vote??? Maybe he/she won't???

Doesn't cvhjange the fact that the assault on ACORN by McCain and his supporters is a non-issue... It's even below flag burning as an issue...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:48 PM

ACORN's Minimum Wage Hypocrisy

ACORN doesn't want to pay the "living wage" it foists on other employers. ACORN has tried to get out of paying the minimum wage to its employees.

In 1995, ACORN sued the state of California, claiming that it should be exempted from the state minimum wage. The group realized the simple economic fact facing all employers: being forced to pay higher
wages means that you must employ fewer workers. A legal brief filed by ACORN during the appeal of its lawsuit admits:

As acknowledged both by the trial court and California, the more that ACORN must pay each individual outreach worker—either because of
minimum or overtime requirements—the fewer outreach workers it will be able to hire.

This argument is particularly ironic. In 1996, when New Orleans business targets of Rathke's minimum wage increase campaign acknowledged the economic reality that increasing the cost of labor would lead them to reduce employment or cut hours, Wade Rathke snapped, "If their business is that marginal, they probably shouldn't be in business."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM

Opinion pieces are not (or at any rate, should not be) cited as evidence, except as evidence of the opinion of the people who write them. They may point in the direction of evidence, and in some cases the fact certain people (eg Colin Powell) have particular opinions is significant in itelf..

That applies whether the opinion concerned is that of a someone posting on the Mudcat or the Daily Kos or Move ON, or an editorial writer in a newspaper.

The essential principle should always be that of CP Scott, who wrote in 1921, on the occasion of his 50th year as editor of what was then the Manchester Guardian, "Comment is free, but facts are sacred."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:40 PM

ACORN doesn't bribe people to fill out multiple registrations. It takes a special kind of bone-headedness to think an organization like ACORN would think they could get away with that and not be shut down.

ACORN pays people to register voters. Some of those people defraud ACORN by filling out fake registrations. ACORN flags those registrations they think are not legitimate and they alert the authorities about them. People can keep repeating the same lies over and over, but that doesn't make them true. This kind of dishonest bone-headedness on the part of the McCain people is one of the reasons more and more Republicans are deciding to vote for Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM

When people quote sources like DailyKos and MoveOn, people are free to point out in what ways the material in those sources is wrong, as I did with the New York Post. If they just say (as many do), "that's not a credible source", but they don't provide any counter arguments, they have not made a successful argument against that source. I didn't do that. I said they're not credible, and then I debunked their arguments. I made a successful argument against that source.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:00 PM

I'd surmise that it is probably as much about class as about race.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM

Yo, Sawz... There you go again with the same sh*t that made you have to give up yer Old Guy and Dickey handle and that is misrepresenting what other folks say which for the record is a way of...

..yes, lieing...

In other words... Your statement above is a lie... Pure and simple... And that, my friend, makes you a liar!!!

Don't like being called a liar??? Then quit lieing... That's purdy simple, ain''t it???

Bottom line is that we pay registrars and we pay to hold elections... These are paid for from tax dollars... If we believe that voting is important than anything that we can do to encourage it is worth it... ACORN is a bargain... They register one heck of a lot of people for alot less than we spend for a few hours on the Iraq War...

(But, Bobert, they register a disporportionate number of poor people...)

So??? Is that a bad thing???

(Well, yeah... That's a bad thing because poor people tend to vote for the Dems...)

So??? Poor people are underrepresented in this democracy and according to the preemble of the Constitution the governemnt is supposed to be of the people and for the people...

(But not *those* people, Bobert... Wink, wink...)

Well, folks... This is the crux of the argument here... The Repubs just wnat the "real" Americians (wink, wink) voting... That is the bottom line here... In other words... People like them who aren't, ahhhh, different...

This is what this is all about with ACORN... If ACORN were signing people up to vote as NASCAR events then the Repubs wouldn't say a word...

But when ACORN goes out and registers people who traditionally have been disenfranchised the Repubs go into that righteous indignation act...

Give me a break... This attack on ACORN is just thinly veiled racism...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:35 PM

Milwaukee Police Association endorses John McCain,
calls Obama campaign's association with ACORN, 'disturbing.'

Milwaukee (WKOW) -- from McCain campaign: John Balcerzak, President of the Milwaukee Police Association, and members of the Wisconsin law enforcement community endorsed the McCain-Palin ticket in Milwaukee Tuesday, simultaneously condemning the Obama campaign's association with ACORN.

"Today, I am here not only as the president of the largest single police union in the state of Wisconsin but also as a Milwaukee County taxpayer and law enforcement officer. I stand proudly with my fellow law enforcement officers from the Milwaukee Police Supervisors' Organization in support of Senator McCain," Balcerzak said on Tuesday.

"There are significant challenges in the years ahead that will be affecting law enforcement. I have confidence that the law-abiding people of our society and the brave men and women in law enforcement that protect them will work together to overcome these challenges. But to do so, we need to have the support of our president, and that is why the MPA has endorsed Senator McCain for President of the United States of America," he continued.

"The next president should have the judgment and credibility to instill a sense of safety in our society. This is why we have deep concerns over Senator Obama's weak record on crime as a member of the Illinois State Senate." Balcerzak said.

"The $35 million that has been spent by ACORN and the $800,000 that Senator Obama's campaign donated to the very organization that is the focus of voter fraud investigation is disturbing," he continued.

ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, faces voter registration complaints and charges in several battleground states, including Wisconsin.

In Milwaukee alone, ACORN workers are responsible for about 90% of 49 cases of bad registrations sent to authorities for possible charges.

Additionally, two people with the voter project have been formally charged with felonies.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:23 PM

So Amos is among the elitists who believe it is acceptable for ACORN to take his money and bribe people to fill out multiple fraudulent voter registration forms?

AR......1998......A contractor with ACORN-affiliated Project Vote was arrested for falsifying about 400 voter registration cards.
CO......2004......An ACORN employee admitted to forging signatures and registering three of her friends to vote 40 times.
CO......2005......Two ex-ACORN employees were convicted in Denver of perjury for submitting false voter registrations.
FL......2004......A Florida Department of Law Enforcement spokesman said ACORN was "singled out" among suspected voter registration groups for a 2004 wage initiative because it was "the common thread" in the agency's fraud investigations.
MI......2004......The Detroit Free Press reported that "overzealous or unscrupulous campaign workers in several Michigan counties are under investigation for voter-registration fraud, suspected of attempting to register nonexistent people or forging applications for already-registered voters." ACORN-affiliate Project Vote was one of two groups suspected of turning in the documents.
MO......2007......Four ACORN employees were indicted in Kansas City for charges including identity theft and filing false registrations during the 2006 election.
MO......2006......Eight ACORN employees in St. Louis were indicted on federal election fraud charges. Each of the eight faces up to five years in prison for forging signatures and submitting false information.
MO......2003......Of 5,379 voter registration cards ACORN submitted in St. Louis, only 2,013 of those appeared to be valid. At least 1,000 are believed to be attempts to register voters illegally.
NC......2004......North Carolina officials investigated ACORN for submitting fake voter registration cards.
NM......2005......Four ACORN employees submitted as many as 3,000 potentially fraudulent signatures on the group's Albuquerque ballot initiative. A local sheriff added: "It's safe to say the forgery was widespread."
NM ......2004......An ACORN employee registered a 13-year-old boy to vote. Citing this and other examples, New Mexico State Representative Joe Thompson stated that ACORN was "manufacturing voters" throughout New Mexico.
OH......2007......A man in Reynoldsburg was indicted on two felony counts of illegal voting and false registration, after being registered by ACORN to vote in two separate counties.
OH......2004......A grand jury indicted a Columbus ACORN worker for submitting a false signature and false voter registration form. In Franklin County, two ACORN workers submitted what the director of the board of election supervisors called "blatantly false" forms. In Cuyahoga County, ACORN and its affiliate Project Vote submitted registration cards that had the highest rate of errors for any voter registration group.
MN......2004......During a traffic stop, police found more than 300 voter registration cards in the trunk of a former ACORN employee, who had violated a legal requirements that registration cards be submitted to the Secretary of State within 10 days of being filled out and signed.
PA......2008......An ACORN employee in West Reading, PA, was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison for identity theft and tampering with records. A second ACORN worker pleaded not guilty to the same charges and is free on $10,000 bail.
PA......2004......Reading's Director of Elections received calls from numerous individuals complaining that ACORN employees deliberately put inaccurate information on their voter registration forms. The Berks County director of elections said voter fraud was "absolutely out of hand," and added: "Not only do we have unintentional duplication of voter registration but we have blatant duplicate voter registrations." The Berks County deputy director of elections added that ACORN was under investigation by the Department of Justice.
TX......2004......ACORN turned in the voter registration form of David Young, who told reporters "The signature is not my signature. It's not even close." His social security number and date of birth were also incorrect.
VA......2005......In 2005, the Virginia State Board of Elections admonished Project Vote and ACORN for turning in a significant number of faulty voter registrations. An audit revealed that 83% of sampled registrations that were rejected for carrying false or questionable information were submitted by Project Vote. Many of these registrations carried social security numbers that exist for other people, listed non-existent or commercial addresses, or were for convicted felons in violation of state and federal election law.
----In a letter to ACORN, the State Board of Elections reported that 56% of the voter registration applications ACORN turned in were ineligible. Further, a full 35% were not submitted in a timely manner, as required by law. The State Board of Elections also commented on what appeared to be evidence of intentional voter fraud. "Additionally," they wrote, "information appears to have been altered on some applications where information given by the applicant in one color ink has been scratched through and re-entered in another color ink. Any alteration of a voter registration application is a Class 5 Felony in accordance with § 24.2-1009 of the Code of Virginia."
WA......2007......Three ACORN employees pleaded guilty, and four more were charged, in the worst case of voter registration fraud in Washington state history. More than 2,000 fraudulent voter registration cards were submitted by the group during a voter registration drive.
WI......2004......The district attorney's office investigated seven voter registration applications Project Vote employees filed in the names of people who said the group never contacted them. Former Project Vote employee Robert Marquise Blakely told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that he had not met with any of the people whose voter registration applications he signed, "an apparent violation of state law," according to the paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM

Yeah ... let's talk about how much $money$ has been spent on this damned never ending election ... Republicans and Democrats .... christ, it could probably cost less to have every child in the U.S. access to adequate health care.

ouch ... goddammit a gerbal just bit my finger.

I'm outta here.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM

So Sawz thinks it is okay to impugn others and put words in their mouths in order to make those who do not agree with him look as dark as possible? Take a Slimeball Bow, Sawbrain.

Your concern over registration fraud is admirable; but why are you so unconcerned about the much, much larger frauds perpetrated by your friend W. and company? Blood in the sand and 10 billion a month down the tube kinda makes registration cards take on a more appropriate perspective? You want fraud, how about Bushie-boy's "the Constitution is a piece of paper" series, or his fascinating string of cons under the guise of "above-the-law" signing statements? Ohh, I know!! How about WMD and ICBMS bristling on the borders of Iraq, aimed at the United STates? There's a fraud for you./

Give me a break, here, and let's discuss something important.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM

So Bobert thinks it is Ok for his taxes to be used to bribe people with cash and Cigs to fill out multiple fradulent voter registration forms even though filling out a false voter registration form is a federal offense.

Take a bow Bobert.

NYT:

"Ms. Kingsley's description of the embezzlement differed from the organization's. In an interview July 8, Ms. Lewis said 90 percent of the $948,607 Mr. Rathke's brother embezzled came from Acorn and the rest from its charity affiliates.

But Ms. Kingsley reported that $215,000 was charged to an Acorn American Express card paid by the Acorn Beneficial Association, a pension fund that has been replaced by a new Acorn pension fund. After the embezzlement was discovered, the Acorn Beneficial Association wrote off the embezzlement as a gift to Acorn."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM

Even if that bizarre comment of Rig had been accurate, it would not in any way be relevant to the question of whether the New York Post is a credible source or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 10:23 AM

"The New York Post isn't a particularly credible source."


                  But we have people on these thread quoting the DailyKos and MoveOn.org, which are about as credible as quotes from the KKK.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 09:46 AM

No, Sawz, I don't think it is wrong that ACORN gets money to help get voters registered... That is a good thing... Sure, like any organization, there are gonna be a few bad apples... That, my friend, is life...

I mean, lets compare ACORN with the medical profession... I think that most of US would agree that being a doctor is a noble profession
but then we hear about doctors who submit bogus bills to Medicare???

Or take the military... I think we would agree that our servicemen are out there doing a good thing and then we hear about someone killing innocent Iraqis???

I mean, lets get back into the real world, Sawz, where, yes, some people do nor behave as we would like them to behave... That is life... Why would you hold ACORN to a higher standard than you would the medical profession or the military???

BTW, our county Sherrif, Danny Presgraves, who is a nice enough guy, was just arrested on 22 counts of all kinds of crimes... Oh yeah, he is a Republican... I guess that makes every Repu7blican in the country a crook???

Bad logic on yer part, Sawz...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:44 AM

The New York Post isn't a particularly credible source. In this case, the Post has taken a real story, and they've taken out important parts of it, and added others that they've invented themselves, and they're passing that off as "news". But it's still largely a fabrication.

There is an organization called Vote From Home that is encouraging voters in Ohio to vote early to avoid the kinds of problems Ohio voters experienced in the last two elections that caused large numbers of them to be disenfranchised - that being the long lines at the polling places that prevented a lot of people from being able to vote.

Some of the members of this organization who came to Ohio from other states to help out and were in residence in Ohio at the time, wanted to be able to vote where they were in Ohio instead of having to go back to their home states to vote. They thought that because they had taken up temporary residence in Ohio, they would be allowed to vote there. But they were not aware of a law in Ohio that stipulates a minimum required length of residence in order for people to be able to vote in that state. The state isn't prosecuting them because the prosecutor in the case has said there was no evidence of criminal intent. There was just ignorance of the law.

When people get their "news" (propaganda) from people and organizations that have axes to grind, they don't get the truth. Mostly they get lies. This is one of those cases, as is most of what is being reported in the media about ACORN.

All of this propaganda that is being promoted by sources like FOX and the New York Post is geared toward helping the Republicans in their efforts to disenfranchise legitimate voters and to cast doubts on the results of the election if Obama wins. They are not protecting democracy, they are undermining democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 04:02 AM

CarolC, One, who was of the ones, who I posted you about, was from Stanford. was on the 'news', tonight. They had the website, that posted it, but I don't remember then name. Heard it on Greta Van Sustern, 'On the Record',(Fox). Pull it back up from the circular file...umm, try
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10242008/news/politics/nyers_swing__miss_135036.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 03:30 AM

Well, I just did a search, and I didn't find any actual news reports about 18 people withdrawing their votes. So unless some documentation is provided, I think I'll consign that one to the circular file.

On the subject of Bush administration and Justice Department complicity...


'The current spate of trumped-up allegations of "voter fraud" coming from John McCain's campaign and his Republican allies and the FBI's decision to investigate represents exactly the same sort of politicization of justice that is at the root of an ongoing investigation into the firing of federal prosecutors, Barack Obama's campaign alleges.

Obama attorney Bob Bauer has asked Attorney General Michael Mukasey to expand the authority of the special prosecutor appointed to investigate the US Attorney firings to also include the fraud allegations. The campaign released a seven-page letter (.pdf) Bauer wrote to Mukasey on Friday requesting the investigation.

"Now, on the emerging evidence of recent conduct undertaken by Bush Administration officials, Republican Party officials, and representatives of the McCain-Palin campaign," he wrote, "it appears that further misconduct of the same nature, directly relevant to the work of the Special Prosecutor, requires that the scope of the Special Prosecutor's assignment be expanded."

Bauer cites the case of former US Attorney David Iglesias, who represented the District of New Mexico until 2006. Bush administration officials reportedly conspired to sack Iglesias in part because of his unwillingness to bring specious voter-fraud charges before an election. Iglesias this week called the voter fraud investigations a scare tactic and said he was shocked to see the FBI was pursuing an investigation based on similarly unmerited accusations of fraud.

On a conference call with reporters Friday, Bauer slammed the "illicit involvement of senior law enforcement officials" in leaking the details of the so-called fraud investigation. The Obama lawyer noted that the leak came "literally within 24 hours" of McCain's statement at Wednesday night's debate that ACORN was threatening the "fabric of our democracy."

The McCain campaign has turned attacking ACORN into a central theme of its campaign in recent weeks, with vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin continuing the assault at a rally in Ohio on Friday.

The community organization, witch which Obama has previously been involved, has produced a relatively small number of inaccurate registration forms in connection with its drive to sign up a million new voters, but it has not been registering voters directly on Obama's behalf and there's no evidence that it's actions in this or any previous election cycle have led to widespread voter fraud.

Bauer said the "reckless and incendiary" attacks from the McCain campaign were aimed more at intimidating voters than at ferreting out fraud. ACORN primarily registered low-income and minority voters, and voting rights advocates fear those voters might not turn out on Election Day to avoid potential harassment at the polls.

The Supreme Court also delivered a setback to the GOP on Friday, ruling against Ohio Republicans who have been feuding with the Secretary of State over registration rules.

Bauer said the conduct he outlines is "directly relevant" to the special prosecutor's investigation and requested a meeting with Mukasey to discuss expanding the investigation.

"Once is more than enough," he wrote. "The Department has yet to recover its credibility after the calamitous politicization of its mission in this Administration and the documented misconduct ... that resulted from the corrupt injection of politics into federal law enforcement."'

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Obama_campaign_wants_Attorneygate_prosecutor_to_1017.html

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 03:06 AM

From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:56 AM

'And they definitely ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law along with the members of the Bush administration and the Justice Department who have aided and abetted them in this widespread election fraud.'

The Bush administration???....Huh?? Missed that part. Tell me more!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 03:03 AM

ooops. typo..

CarolC, It was on the 'news', tonight. Eighteen got caught, and withdrew their votes. 700 more suspected

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:56 AM

And by flagging the suspect registration forms and alerting the officials that they were suspect, ACORN complied with the law. However, by holding on to the forms and then acting as though they had discovered them all on their own, rather than being alerted about them by ACORN, the election officials involved are the ones who are committing voter registration fraud, and by using that as an excuse to disenfranchise legitimate voters, they are also committing widespread election fraud, in violation of the law. And they definitely ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law along with the members of the Bush administration and the Justice Department who have aided and abetted them in this widespread election fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:17 AM

RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN

Okay, the truth about ACORN, is it is a corrupt political organization. A good place to start, to prepare one for higher office....and that's the truth!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:14 AM

Obama's ACORN-defending lawyers

Twice in the last week, the Obama campaign's general counsel, Robert F. Bauer of the Perkins & Cole law firm, has written U.S. Attorney General Michael Mukasey, seeking to shut down the reported FBI investigation of ACORN and others. Instead, Bauer says, there should be a probe of those who have voiced concerns of voter registration fraud, claiming it's an intimidation effort designed to suppress voter turnout.

As the Obama campaign's first letter claimed on Oct. 17, "Voter registration impropriety does not constitute actual vote fraud." It asserts that registration concerns are "manufactured allegations of fraud."

Federal law treats registration fraud more seriously, as it should. Even an attempt to register falsely is a federal crime, punishable by up to five years in prison. The penalty is the same for those who aid or abet that effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:43 AM

*excuse

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:42 AM

I don't think ACORN is wrong for employing people to register voters. I think it's wrong for the Republicans to lie about what ACORN is doing and use those lies as a excise to disenfranchise voters. In fact, not only is it wrong, it's also illegal. If Obama's request for a special prosecutor to look into the conspiracy between the Republican Party, the Bush administration, and the Justice Department to engage in widespread election fraud is granted, we will likely see some indictments, and even some convictions of those responsible. That will be a good day.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:09 AM

Sawzaw, when I see your name in threads and skim your posts I assume you are taking a conservative Republican position and I assume you are wrong about the "facts" you purport to be reporting.

Anyone else get the same reading from this character?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:02 AM

Obama & Acorn

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:49 AM

Well Well Well, I see a whole lot of hemin and hawin around, side steppin etc. but I don't see no hands in tha air.

So it is unanimous that CC, Bobert an everbody thinks ACORN is wrong for takin taxpayer money to pay people to fill out false registrations and bribe people with cash and cigarettes to fill out multiple registrations.

OK then. Next question needin a straight answer:

If ya think it is OK for Obama to claim he has never had anything to do with ACORN when in fact he has, raise up your hands for all to see.

Obama's campaign website states:

    Fact: Barack was never an ACORN trainer and never worked for ACORN in any other capacity.

The Journal Social Policy Chicago

Photo of Obama and ACORN members

Case Study: The Barack Obama Campaign

written by Toni Foulkes, a Chicago ACORN Leader.

    "Obama took the case, known as ACORN vs. Edgar, the governor at the time, and we won. Obama then went on to run a voter registration project with Project VOTE in 1992 that made it possible for Carol Moseley Braun to win the Senate that year. Project VOTE delivered 50,000 newly registered voters in that campaign. ACORN delivered about 5,000 of them.
Since then, we have invited Obama to our leadership training sessions to run the session on power every year, and, as a result, many of our newly developing leaders got to know him before he ever ran for office. Thus it was natural for many of us to be active volunteers in his first campaign for State Senate and then his failed bid for U.S. Congress in 1996. By the time he ran for U.S. Senate, we were old friends.""Project VOTE" in 1992 was undertaken in direct partnership with ACORN.

The Los Angeles Times March 2, 2008:

    "At the time, Talbot worked at the social action group ACORN and initially considered Obama a competitor. But she became so impressed with his work that she invited him to help train her staff."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:29 PM

So, OK, the Republicans are on the warpath, out to prove that ACRON is involved in all this illegal, immoral stuff. But they haven't gotten very far with it. Logic tells me that next they have to prove that all this nasty stuff had something to do with Obama. By that time, the election will be over and Obama will be president.

I think the electorate is getting jaded, that they no longer believe empty allegations because there have been so many of them. It's "The Boy Who Cried 'Wolf' Syndrome," I think.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:28 PM

I echo the above post... I wouldn't trust anything coming out of the right wing lobbying organizations or think tanks on the subject of ACORN. They want ACORN out of the way, and they will say and do anything to make that a reality.

If ACORN has internal problems, it needs to clean them up. But their efforts on behalf of the poor and disenfranchised shouldn't be disrupted in the process. The Republicans and right-wingers who are trashing ACORN want to shut ACORN down, not help it become a better organization, because ACORN stands in the way of their having total control over the lives of the poor and disenfranchised.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:22 PM

I'm not a Democrat any more than I am a Republican. But it is a fact that under Democratic administrations the poor tend to do a lot better than they do under Republican administrations. While I think the Democrats could do a way better job of advocating for the poor (or better yet, moving people out of that category altogether), it is nevertheless throwing the baby out with the bathwater (and in the process, hurting the poor) if people try to eliminate organizations like ACORN just because one doesn't like the fact that they are involved with Democrats.

We don't have a socialist or communist party in this country, and we never will. So the Democrats are the best hope the poor in this country have. Instead of undermining the Democrats, I think it would be far kinder to the poor in this country to try to make the Democratic party better and more responsive to those at the bottom of the economic ladder.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:49 PM

bILL,
epionline is a multi million dollar right wing lobby located on K Street next to many other full time lobby corporations.

They do not disclose the clients they shill for, but if you read all their "alleged" research, you might think that at least one would underscore or support a single Democratic reform.

You sir will not be thrown to the wolves. At most we will have a Gerbil affectionatly nibble your finger.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:17 PM

If I lived in the U.S. I'd be labeled a communist ... I wouldn't affiliate myself with either the Republicans or the Democrats ... I feel either party has not done enough for it's people. Look at the state your country is now ... yes the Republicans are certainly guilty, one can't argue that, but the Democrats could have done more.

Anyway ... just because Acorn is tied close to the Democrat party it does not grant them complete immunity of all misgivings. there is a lot of money involved with this organization .... a lot of money tied to the Democrats .... a lot of $money$ lays way to greed. This is evident in the link below.

embezzlment

now go throw me to the wolves.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:05 PM

People from Boston are now getting letters that they will not be allowed to vote if they can not prove their citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM

The entire ACORN story is bogus... These folks go oyut and collect registration forms... Period... They *** do not*** put people on the voting rolls... They collect forms... Registrars put people on the rolls... That is the real story that John McCain does not wnat you to know!!!

Why???

Well, his lawyers are trying to soften up the courts for the possibility of an onslaugt of law suits after the election...

I've often predicted that it would take over a 5% victory by Obama for the Repubs to accept the outcome without trying a repeat of their very successful 2000 legal challenge which was used to stop the recount in Florida... So, I hope that the percentages that the polls are showing today hold up or if you think the $700B Bailout was unbelievable then you ain't seen nuthin' yet when the Repubs unleash an army of lawyers on courts all across this country...

I hope this doesn't happen because it would definately bring about alot of violence, the kind we have not seen since the 60's and might even take the country into a major uncivil war with neigbors shooting at each other...

Don't think this can happen??? Just look at how pissed off the folks are who attend the Palin rallies... Hey, I'm watchin' these folks... Some of my neighbors are just like those people and guess what... They have guns and so do I... I've been trying to use a little humor with 'um but it ain't easu listening to folks talk about how Obama should be hung... Yeah, I've heard it... These folks know that I make a lot of jokes and everything but these folks ain't stable people... They are definately pissed off people who blame all their problems on Obama... So I'm hopin' for a ***clean*** landslide so that it doesn't end up in the courts and doesn't pit neighbor against neighbor.... That's about the only result that these people might accept...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM

This seems to be another case of what Mark Twain wrote: "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:59 PM

Yes, I think it's lacking in compassion to help the Republicans spread lies about an organization that is helping disenfranchised people to vote, and that helps poor people come closer to realizing what people in this country call the "American dream". Without ACORN, such people will be fending for themselves. And this is why the Republicans are working so hard to undermine ACORN's work. Because they don't like for poor people in this country to have any advocates at all. The Republicans are responsible for destroying most of the safety net we had in this country. They are responsible for almost destroying the unions in this country, and they are now trying to destroy the last hope that the people who have been hurt the most by their activities have... organizations like ACORN, who advocate on behalf of the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:58 PM

"f that's the case, then such people should never vote for a Republican, since they've been rigging the elections since 2000."

I won't argue that at all ... If that is the truth I certainly agree. I'm just debating Acorn since that is the topic of this thread.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:56 PM

*sigh*...Rig... that ACORN story you are flogging would be quite a problem *IF* it were true, so you just-keep-repeating-it as if it were.
I can't tell whether you simply get all your news from Fox and O'Reilly who won't tell you the truth, or whether you just LIKE the story so well that you believe what you want to believe, or whether you are just playing troll to keep the pot boiling.

Whatever...you are not getting it....and now you couldn't back down if the truth bit you on the ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:53 PM

crossposted

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:53 PM

If that's the case, then such people should never vote for a Republican, since they've been rigging the elections since 2000.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:52 PM

I'm not undermining the work of organizations that help the unfortunate ... far from it. I am angry such organizations such as Acorn (whose purpose is gallant) but have fallen to the way side either from greed, or losing sight of their purpose ... me lacking in compassion ?? ... if that is your judgment of someone you don't know, so let it be.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:51 PM

Some of us don't think that rigging an election is an occupation that people should be engaged in, poor or otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:46 PM

I'm not suggesting that anyone who is financially fortunate (or whatever) should apologize or feel guilty for their situation. I think such people should count their blessings. I am suggesting that to try to undermine the work of organizations that help poor people, when the person doing the undermining isn't one of the ones who will suffer if such organizations cease to exist, is short sighted, at best, and lacking in compassion at worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:39 PM

Just to let ya know I'm not financially comfortable ... financially fortunate, yes .... and I am fortunate to live in the country I do. There is no need for me to apologize or feel guilty of these good fortunes. Enough of this anyway ... who really gives a rats ass overall.

I do advocate a decent livable salary, decent working conditions for all and access to health care for all people, regardless of borders.

All right wing / left wing political affiliations asides, there appears to be a stink arising from the executive offices of Acorn ... and we will know the truth in the next few weeks.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:34 PM

No it hasn't. The lie is that ACORN is purposely trying to submit false registrations. That is a lie. The truth is that ACORN employees have done that, and that ACORN has done an excellent job of weeding them out and turning them over to the authorities. Which is exactly the opposite of trying to submit false registrations. But who cares about the truth when the empire is at stake, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:29 PM

Except it's not a lie. It's been verified in hundreds of cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:28 PM

Funny thing about lies and exaggerations that fail the truth test....you have to just keep repeating them as if they WERE true, or you have to backtrack. That's what comes of repeating stupid rumors before checking them out.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:17 PM

...as I said before, I don't think people who keep trying to spread that lie about ACORN are doing John McCain any favors.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:15 PM

Obama does not have ACORN trying to register bogus voters. And the accusation by the McCain campaign and the Republican Party that he is, is a part of the sleaze that they're engaging in.

And considering the fact that McCain voted with Bush more than 90 percent of the time (by McCain's own admission), it's perfectly legitimate to tie McCain to GW Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:10 PM

I suppose if Hilary Clinton had been the candidate Rig would have been singing from a different hymn sheet.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:06 PM

Well, he's got that ACORN outfit out there trying to register bogus voters. And he's running advertisements trying to tie McCain to George W. Bush--how sleezy does it get?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:57 PM

It's McCain staff & supporter who are leaving THEIR campaign because of disgust with the tone...not Obama's.

Simply stating that "...the Obama campaign is even sleezier." is not exactly convincing.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:50 PM

It actually isn't. The McCain campaign has definitely reached new lows for sleaziness in this campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:47 PM

The only problem with that analogy is, the Obama campaign is even sleezier.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:42 PM

The $800,000 that people are saying (rather dishonestly) Obama contributed to ACORN ("no strings attached")was paid to an ACORN subsidiary in the form of a fee for services related to getting voters to go to the polls on election day in the primary and had nothing whatever to do with voter registration.


There's a reason McCain isn't yelling too loudly about ACORN any more. McCain supporters ought to take note (because they're making their candidate look bad) It's because he, himself has employed people who have committed voter fraud...


'John McCain's campaign has directed $175,000 to the firm of a Republican operative accused of massive voter registration fraud in several states.

According to campaign finance records, a joint committee of the McCain-Palin campaign, the RNC and the the California Republican Party, made a $175,000 payment to the group Lincoln Strategy in June for purposes of "registering voters." The managing partner of that firm is Nathan Sproul, a renowned GOP operative who has been investigated on multiple occasions for suppressing Democratic voter turnout, throwing away registration forms and even spearheading efforts to get Ralph Nader on ballots to hinder the Democratic ticket.

In a letter to the Justice Department last October, House Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers said that that Sproul's alleged activities "clearly suppress votes and violate the law."

That Sproul would come under the employment umbrella of the McCain campaign -- the Republican National Committee has also separately paid Lincoln Strategy at least $37,000 for voter registration efforts this cycle -- is not terribly surprising. Sproul, who has donated nearly $30,000 to McCain's campaign, has been in the good graces of GOP officials for the past decade despite charges of ethical and potentially legal wrongdoing.

But his involvement with the Republican Party's voter registration efforts has the potential to create a political and public relations headache at a time when McCain can ill-afford one. For weeks the Arizona Republican and his allies have been seeking to tie Barack Obama to the community organization ACORN, which they have accused of potentially committing massive voter registration fraud. Sproul's contract with the GOP ticket -- in addition to news of Republican officials attempting to suppress Democratic turnout in California -- raises, for some, questions about McCain's own efforts.

"It should certainly take away from McCain's argument," said Bob Grossfeld, a progressive political consultant based in Arizona who has followed Sproul's career. "Without knowing anything of what is going on with ACORN, there is a clear history with Mr. Sproul either going over the line or sure as hell kicking dirt on it, and doing it for profit and usually fairly substantive profit."

As Republican Congressman Chris Cannon summarized during a joint hearing for the subcommittee on commercial and administrative law back in May 2008: "The difference between ACORN and Sproul is that ACORN doesn't throw away or change registration documents after they have been filled out."

Indeed, Sproul's history is filled with allegations of political misdeeds. During the 2004 election, Sproul & Associates (the former name of Lincoln Strategy) was accused of attempting to destroy forms collected by Democratic voters in Nevada. That same year in Oregon, Sproul & Associates allegedly instructed canvassers to only accept Republican registration forms in addition to destroying those turned in by Democrats.'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/20/mccain-employing-gop-oper_n_136254.html



'SACRAMENTO -- The owner of a firm that the California Republican Party hired to register tens of thousands of voters this year was arrested in Ontario over the weekend on suspicion of voter registration fraud.

State and local investigators allege that Mark Jacoby fraudulently registered himself to vote at a childhood California address where he no longer lives so he would appear to meet the legal requirement that all signature gatherers be eligible to vote in California. His firm, Young Political Majors, or YPM, collects petition signatures and registers voters in California and other states.
Jacoby's arrest by state investigators and the Ontario Police Department late Saturday came after dozens of voters said they were duped into registering as Republicans by people employed by YPM. The voters said YPM workers tricked them by saying they were signing a petition to toughen penalties against child molesters.

The firm was paid $7 to $12 for every Californian it registered as a member of the GOP.

Dan Goldfine, an attorney for Jacoby, on Sunday denied any wrongdoing by his client and called the charges "baseless."

He said the arrest outside an Ontario hotel, which involved seven squad cars and nine police officers, was part of a "long pattern of harassment against Mr. Jacoby for an entirely valid voter registration effort."

Goldfine said the case that prosecutors are bringing against his client involves charges that are rarely pressed.

Jacoby was released on bail Sunday evening from the West Valley Detention Center in Rancho Cucamonga, Goldfine said.

After complaints by voters and Democratic Party officials, several agencies launched investigations into Jacoby's activities. They included the Los Angeles County district attorney's office, which issued the warrant for his arrest earlier this month on felony charges of voter registration fraud and perjury.

"We contacted people at the addresses where he registered, and they have no idea who he is," said Dave Demerjian, head deputy of the public integrity unit at the L.A. County district attorney's office.

Goldfine said his client does business in many states, traveling frequently, and his permanent address has been his parents' Los Angeles County home, where he received mail and registered to vote.

Demerjian said his office is continuing to investigate allegations that YPM workers improperly re-registered voters with the GOP.

Several dozen voters recently told The Times that YPM workers said they had to become Republicans to sign the petition, contrary to California initiative law. Other voters said they had no idea their registration was being changed.

YPM has been accused of using bait-and-switch tactics across the country. Election officials and lawmakers have launched investigations into the activities of YPM workers in Florida and Massachusetts. In Arizona, the firm was recently a defendant in a civil rights lawsuit.

In a written statement Sunday, the state Republican Party called the charges against Jacoby "politically motivated." The party said the charges do not support accusations from voters and Democratic officials that YPM has been duping voters into joining the GOP.'

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fraud20-2008oct20,0,3842357.story


I think this kind of stuff is one of the reasons Republicans are moving to the Obama camp in such large numbers. The Republicans who have any personal integrity at all are seeing the sleazy, dishonest, and slimy way that John McCain is running his campaign and they don't want to be a part of that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM

Registering voters is something which anybody of any political persuasion should see as a good thing, even if they think those voters are liable to vote for the other side.

Every citizen who is not able to register to vote represents a failure of the democratic system.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:13 PM

Obama's campaign did not donate any money to ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:54 PM

Sawzaw: Reportedly Obama's campaign contributed $800,000 to ACORN. I'm sure there were no strings attached to the donation. Campaign officials probably said, "get as many Republican registrations as you can get! We are bi-partisan."

We will just have to wait and see what the various Justice Department investigations turns up on the organization. So far the news doesn't look good for ACORN.

I heard the other day that Henry Waxman had agreed to holding hearings in Washington, but "unfortunately" he can't get around to scheduling them until after the election. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:07 PM

Acorn has defrauded the taxpayers.

ACORN and its affiliates have a multi-decade history of fraud and abuse of taxpayer funds. Recently, the
Consumers Rights League released a whistleblower report that uses internal ACORN documents to
highlight alleged misuses of taxpayer money by ACORN Housing Corp, which took in 40% of its funds
from the government and sent more than a million dollars to ACORN's affiliate, Citizens Consulting.


http://www.consumersrightsleague.org/uploadedfiles/Latest%20Million%20Dollar%20ACORN%20Scandal.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:44 AM

Everyone's not a victim of ACORN. ACORN has been doing the best they can with the resources at their disposal. And they have helped a lot of people. It's organizations like ACORN that help poor people when the government won't. Organizations like ACORN are the "Bailey Savings and Loans" of this country who are fighting the "Mr. Potters" of this country. They're one of the few things that have been standing in between the poor people and the Mr. Potters of this country.

It's easy for someone who is financially comfortable and living in a country that has universal health care to sit in judgement of the job ACORN is doing, but anyone who really cares about poor people won't be helping the Mr. Potters of this country remove one of the few sources of help the poor of this country still have.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:36 AM

Well .... I guess everyone is the victim.

another view of Acorn


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:18 AM

I'm sorry, but I don't have any sympathy for someone who would commit a crime that could do the kind of far reaching harm to our democracy that submitting false voter registrations can have. And I say this as someone who worked for minimum wage many times in my life. He's not the victim. The voters who are being disenfranchised as a result of this guy's actions are the victims. A lot of them make minimum wage, too, and they're far less likely to get any help with their health care and meager wages with McCain in the White House than if Obama's in there. A lot of people are being denied the vote today because of that guy and others like him, and many of those people really need some help. Help they're not going to get from McCain. And I say this as one of the people with no access to medical care.

So yeah, when people do things like that, they need to face some consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:01 AM

We still don't know the salaries of the people at the top who run ACORN. I'm not making any accusations; I'm just saying we don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:39 PM

I would have sacked him too LH !!

Can't find good help anywhere these days ... and the salaries they demand ... whew !!

Hope ya find that toothbrush.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM

I know how you feel. I can't find my gold toothbrush, and my valet did quite a poor job on polishing the Porsche! I've sacked him for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:16 PM

Damn it ... jeeeezuz H. ... somewhere in posting my rant above I've misplaced my glass of Chianti ... now where the hell is it.

biLL :)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM

The link provided by Bill D provided more information than just the average salary ($34,000); if you scroll down, you see concrete examples of some of the highest salaries for specific job titles.

It is possible to make as much as $72,000 as "Director." That's pretty good money, but then again I'm not sure that there is more than one Director in the entire organization. The top person responsible for an enterprrise of similar size in the private sector would certainly be making more than than, probably more than twice that amount.

The next-highest salaries, for accounting and finance specialists, are in the $62-to-65K range. A "Community Manager" ~ probably the head honcho of each local chapater ~ makes a modest $39,000, not much higher than the ACORN-wide average of $34,000.

All in all, pretty defensible, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:05 PM

Acorn is a reflection in a system that has failed ... period.

NcGrath's last statement in his thread above is true ... but somehow the Republicans or the Democrats just don't get it, and aren't gettin it.

Now .. throw me to the wolves.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM

Mickey Mouse can't vote. (He might register but will be flagged at the polls)

ACORN abuse is rampant by Republicans only. It's a partisan issue and there is no
voter fraud here.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM

Here is the whole TRUTH about acorns:

Eat too many of them and you will get a really bad bellyache, your hair will fall out, and you'll experience delusions of being Woody Allen whenever someone brings up the subject of pastries or pedantry.

Note: the above warnings do not apply if you are a squirrel or a chimpmunk, only if you are human.

DON'T overeat when it comes to acorns!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:53 PM

So I take it the critics of ACORN would like it to have more money so that it could pay higher wages to its workers, and could afford to keep open offices which weren't registering that many people? That sounds fine to me.

The bottom line should be that, one way or another, everyone who is entitled to vote needs to be registered, and that registering voters should not be seen as a partisan exercise, but as something that a democratic society has a absolute duty to ensure is carried out effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM

I should add ... the election doesn't really mean a damned thing to that guy who was fudgin the ballot stuff .... when everyone is arguing about Joe the Plumber, McCain's high school record, $millions$ spent on election advertising, bank bailouts where the guilty are left to take take $millions$, $12 billion a month spent on a war which is a lie, no medicare, no hope, ... what should we expect.

Yup ... throw him jail.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:42 PM

In fact in SJ .... it's usually the burger flipper working on the drive by window, who is substituting his pathetic salary pushing drugs. Crime in many cases is sourced from the fact the the individual cannot make a decent humane salary from his/her job. Must be very hard in the U.S. were one does not have medicare. Can't believe how one can provide for a family of 3 $8.00 an hour. But throw him in jail and bail out the banks with an arbitrary figure of $7 billion ... a considerable amount of that is going to the bonuses of the banking executives.

Off topic somewhat ... when was the last time Congress increased the minimum wage and by how much? $8.00 doesn't get ya far in city like Seattle (where that guy lived). Minimum wage earners ... the forgotten populace.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:38 PM

It might be fun to compare the salaries of ACORN executives and managers to those of CEOs of major corporations, most of whom supported Republican causes and candidates, .... and compare them relative to the 'average' worker in those companies.

   What? You don't think that would be fun? *tsk*

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:30 PM

"The average salary doesn't really tell us that much. "

true ... point taken in the manager's salary of a Burger King ... aint much at all, in fact it's a joke ... but it's certainly more compared to the guy flippin burgers.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

With United Way and some others, a few people at the very top made (I want to say over a million, but I can't recall for sure) but it was very substantial. Most people did not make any where near that much.
          The average salary doesn't really tell us that much.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM

define huge

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:48 PM

Good point Rigin.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM

One of the most aggravating things about non-profits is, the rank and file workers hardly make anything, and the management people often pull down huge salaries. I'm not saying this is true of ACORN; I don't know. I wonder if anyone does?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: jeffp
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM

ACORN is just like any other poorly-funded nonprofit. Forced to take whoever it can get to try to accomplish its mission. If you don't like the job you're doing, why don't you volunteer to register new voters in your local area?

Of course, it's easier and a lot more fun to point fingers.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:31 PM

BTW .... I'm a proud commie socialist who happens to beleive in a decent minimum wage, healthcare benefits for all workers, and the right for all workers to form a union.   :)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:53 PM

What I'm saying is Acorn hires people who are on the low end of the social economic chain ... desperate for work ... Acorn hires them puts the pressure on in regards to quotas saying if not met, no job, no pay, no food and roof for the family.

Acorn is just like any other sweat shop employer taking advantage of the low end workers. A theme right out of Glengarry Glen Ross. $8.00 bucks an hour ... how is anyone supposed to feed a family with $8.00 and hour .... along with the threat of losing your job hanging over your head.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:14 PM

And of course, yet once again, those who are pointing fingers at ACORN, are completely ignoring the same thing when done by Republicans, like the California Republican Party, and the company they hired that has been submitting falsified registrations as well as fraudulently switching people's registration from Democrat to Republican.

More propaganda from the McCain camp.

Several years ago, I notice that schools had started a propaganda campaign to get more people to buy school lunches. I also noticed that around that time, the school lunches had become fairly inedible. The reason they had to resort to propaganda to get people to buy the lunches is because they sucked, and nobody with any sense would buy them on their own. Same for the Republicans. If what they had to offer was in the best interests of the majority of voters, they wouldn't have to resort to propaganda to get people to vote for them. And they wouldn't have to resort to massive election fraud to disenfranchise those who won't vote for them.

The Republican (American Fascist) Party has outlived any usefulness it ever had in the past. Time for it to go the way of the dinosaurs.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:01 PM

I suppose the disenfranchisement of low-income, or ethnic monorityu voters is a Social Good in Sawz' book.

He has not answered my earlier question about how he would handle the flow of occasional bad registrations or straight-out fraudulent registration cards submitted by low-dollar volunteers with low ethics and a high motivation to produce names. What ACORN does is flag them for close scrutiny before turning them in to the Registrar's office as they are required to do.

I submit that the implication that these bad cards are part of an ACORN plot is defamatory and disingenuous. It's fine to be enthusiastic about your side in this game, but slinging mud like this is below the salt. Take it from one who's done it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:57 AM

Again..those workers are breaking the law and should be fired...and maybe prosecuted, if the D.A. thinks it's worth it.

They think they are being clever & turning in a bunch of forms to make them look like they are working, but it's stupid!

ACORN itself is a victim when some people associated with it, no matter at what level, pull such stunts. It just causes extra work and garish headlines....even though it almost never registers an illegal voter.

Pointing fingers at this problem to fix the problem is one thing, but pretending that it indicates a widespread attempt to load the voter rolls with bad registrations is patently false.


"Wowee! We found another instance of lazy, no-conscience hourly workers! It just proves the whole ACORN organization is corrupt! I know....let's go post the story on Mudcat and embarass all those commie, liberal Obama supporters!"

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:50 AM

How is that guy who defrauded ACORN a victim of ACORN? I would say that ACORN is a victim of people like him. He defrauded them, took their money, and created a situation in which it is becoming more difficult for that organization accomplish its mission of registering voters.

Every day, people face difficult choices. Most of us don't choose to commit fraud and violate election laws as a way of making the choices easier. That guy didn't just hurt ACORN. He hurt all people in this country who are struggling and whose votes are being disenfranchised.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:33 AM

Well Well Well

Everybody that thinks it is acceptable to pay people to fill out false registrations [example: Daffy Duck, Jive Turkey and 7 year olds] and bribe people with cash and cigarettes to fill out multiple registrations with taxpayer money, raise their hands.

1 VOTER, 72 REGISTRATIONS
'ACORN PAID ME IN CASH & CIGS'

CLEVELAND - A man at the center of a voter-registration scandal told The Post yesterday he was given cash and cigarettes by aggressive ACORN activists in exchange for registering an astonishing 72 times, in apparent violation of Ohio laws.

"Sometimes, they come up and bribe me with a cigarette, or they'll give me a dollar to sign up," said Freddie Johnson, 19, who filled out 72 separate voter-registration cards over an 18-month period at the behest of the left-leaning Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now.

"The ACORN people are everywhere, looking to sign people up. I tell them I am already registered. The girl said, 'You are?' I say, 'Yup,' and then they say, 'Can you just sign up again?' ".

Johnson used the same information on all of his registration cards, and officials say they usually catch and toss out duplicate registrations. But the practice sparks fear that some multiple registrants could provide different information and vote more than once by absentee ballot.

ACORN is under investigation in Ohio and at least eight other states - including Missouri, where the FBI said it's planning to look into potential voter fraud - for over-the-top efforts to get as many names as possible on the voter rolls regardless of whether a person is registered or eligible.

It's even under investigation in Bridgeport, Conn., for allegedly registering a 7-year-old girl to vote, according to the State Elections Enforcement Commission.....

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:12 PM

me? copy & paste.... from Sawzaw's

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:26 PM

Jeeze, Bill D., I'M impressed! How did YOU get those symbols in your post?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:22 PM

the real victims of ACORN ...

just trying to keep a job

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:57 PM

I hoped Sawzaw would know how he got those symbols in his post.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM

It looks like sanskrit!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:32 PM

â€쳌 ... ’ ... ????

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:31 PM

"??? such as? It was an honest question"

The assumption I questioned was that Sawzaw had in fact heard that allegation rather than just dreamed it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:28 PM

There's a movement afoot to strip ACORN of its federal funding. The organization has become so partisan that they can no longer claim tax-exempt status. The IRS will be on them next, if they aren't already.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:09 PM

New York times knew about this report in June but it purposefully withheld it from the public until October 21 because of it political bias.

Acorn Report Raises Issues of Legality

   
The June 18 report, written by Elizabeth Kingsley, a Washington lawyer, spells out her concerns about potentially improper use of charitable dollars for political purposes; money transfers among the affiliates; and potential conflicts created by employees working for multiple affiliates, among other things. It also offers a different account of the embezzlement of almost $1 million by the brother of Acorn’s founder, Wade Rathke, than the one the organization gave in July, when word of the theft became public.

“A full analysis of potential liability will require consultation with a knowledgeable white-collar criminal attorney,â€쳌 Ms. Kingsley wrote of the embezzlement, which occurred in 2000 but was not disclosed until this summer. In a telephone interview on Monday, Ms. Kingsley and Bertha Lewis, Acorn’s top executive, said the group had begun addressing the concerns raised in the report.

“Has everything been done yet? No,â€쳌 Ms. Lewis said. “We’ve been at this for three months, and we have taken everything she said in the report very seriously. It’s a huge undertaking.â€쳌 Over the weekend, Ms. Kingsley said, the national board adopted several good-governance policies, like appointing an audit committee for the first time.

Disclosure of her report, which was distributed to Acorn and 10 affiliates, increases pressure on the organization at a particularly troublesome time. Besides the inquiries into its voter registration efforts, Acorn faces demands for back taxes by the Internal Revenue Service and various state tax authorities. At the same time, foundations that have backed Acorn are withholding support.

Ms. Kingsley’s concerns about the way Acorn affiliates work together could fuel the controversy over Acorn’s voter registration efforts, which are largely underwritten by an affiliated charity, Project Vote. Project Vote hires Acorn to do voter registration work on its behalf, and the two groups say they have registered 1.3 million voters this year.

As a federally tax-exempt charity, Project Vote is subject to prohibitions on partisan political activity. But Acorn, which is a nonprofit membership corporation under Louisiana law, though subject to federal taxation, is not bound by the same restrictions.

“Project Vote and Acorn have a written agreement that specifies that all work is nonpartisan,â€쳌 Michael Slater, Project Vote’s new executive director, wrote in answer to e-mailed questions about the relationship.

But Ms. Kingsley found that the tight relationship between Project Vote and Acorn made it impossible to document that Project Vote’s money had been used in a strictly nonpartisan manner. Until the embezzlement scandal broke last summer, Project Vote’s board was made up entirely of Acorn staff members and Acorn members.

Ms. Kingsley’s report raised concerns not only about a lack of documentation to demonstrate that no charitable money was used for political activities but also about which organization controlled strategic decisions.

She wrote that the same people appeared to be deciding which regions to focus on for increased voter engagement for Acorn and Project Vote. Zach Pollett, for instance, was Project Vote’s executive director and Acorn’s political director, until July, when he relinquished the former title. Mr. Pollett continues to work as a consultant for Project Vote through another Acorn affiliate.

“As a result, we may not be able to prove that 501(c)3 resources are not being directed to specific regions based on impermissible partisan considerations,â€쳌 Ms. Kingsley said, referring to the section of the tax code concerning rules for charities.

She also found problems with governance of Acorn affiliates. “Board meetings are not held, or if they are, minutes are not kept, or if minutes are kept, they never make it into the files,â€쳌 she wrote....

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:21 PM

ACORN, by its very nature, is a number of 'local' groups with some guidance by national officers...any individual group can be run more or less efficiently and/or carefully. That is what has been confusing. Only a few places have reported these silly & blatant submissions of fake registrations. There has been no evidence of real 'illegal' activities, in fact the fake registrations the Republicans are demanding be investigated were already flagged by the groups which submitted them as problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:08 PM

Sorry, Alice, I can't do that. Trotting out the Executive Director, a board member of Acorn, and Interim chief organizer of Acorn to defend the organization just isn't enough. What would one expect them to say? "Yeah, we're cheating?" Right.

Now if the entire Dallas Cowboys football team (which was listed on one of the registration forms turned in by Acorn) turns out to vote in Florida, I might revise my thinking. I think I would rather await the outcome of the many investigations being conducted by the Justice Department into the possible illegal activities of Acorn before becoming it's champion.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:42 PM

☺

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:28 PM

That's because nobody is taking them seriously!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM

no denying? Mercy! I know lots of folks that have denied it. They have not been struck by lightning.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:57 PM

Still, there's no denying, that ACORN outfit must be made up of a bunch of nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 03:04 PM

With the full weight and money of federal government prosecutors they have prosecuted exactly 24 people over 6 years.

There have been 2.3 million voters that have been removed from the rolls due to foreclosures, poverty, ethnic status and the new 2006 law based on the success of Catherine Harris tactics.

Colorado is looking at purging 20% of the voters.

24 fraudulent votes vs millions purged is a bit lopsided.

and rich white bigots want to keep it that way.

If your name is White aged 35 and above with your own home, you will probably not have your vote challenged.
If you are a college student or have an ethnic name or are part of the armed services overseas, your vote will probably disappear prior to counting.

If you mailed in your vote there are over 50 picky criterion to throw your vote away such as not an official envelope, you abreviated your middle name instead of writing it full on your registration etc.

If Acorn had been smart they would have burned the bad registrations rather than give zealots the opportunity to say that someone who registered as Harry Potter of Grifendor is tearing the fabric of democracy to shreds.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:14 PM

You're absolutely right, Don. And "None of the Above" would probably win most of the elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

I understand ACORN to exist as many chapters in many places. Because it is fragmented in such a manner it easy to see how in some places ACORN may be operating as it originally intended and in others it may have an agenda that is clearly not non-partisan.

The fact is I trust neither side to play fair, honest, or by the rules.

Factcheck.org has as many items that support ACORN as condems it. We all have to vote but vote with clear eyes. I can't support either of these choices that have been thrust upon us. So I am truly tween the rocks and shoals this time around. And I probably always will be until they have a "None of The Above" lever to pull.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:51 PM

Bill, without Greg Palast riding shotgun neither of us would ever find those cables.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM

The concept of ACORN being non-partisan is nothing short of laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:50 PM

Ok...I'll answer my own question...(Like I say, I use Google)

ACORN has a 'political action committee' which DID endorse Obama.

Maybe it's a minor distinction, but it might be important.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:46 PM

??? such as? It was an honest question, since ACORN is supposed to be just a registration organization.

I have no doubt most of their group is 'probably' in favor of Obama, but the assertion was "endorsed"....

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:36 PM

"Where did you hear that?

That question contains a dubious assumption.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:27 PM

My new explorer 7 won't let me save anything offline like IE 6.
all I can do is copy and paste with word.

microsoft improvements just keep taking things away.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:18 PM

Link courtesy of Bill D

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4707


This Feeney guy is now a good friend to McCain.

its a small world.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:07 PM

The Attorney General of Ohio is getting death threats for her efforts to look into voter suppresion.

West Virgina voters have reported their votes for Democratic candidates were switched before their eyes on the touch screen machines...so watch carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:47 AM

http://www.stealbackyourvote.org/



check out Greg Palast 'armed madhouse'

you can listen to some of his book for free.





correction:
2.7 voters have been purged since the last election. (not 3.7)


DO not accept a provisional ballot.

what do you do?
go back later with whatever additional proof they ask for.
IF THEY STILL tell you to vote with a provisilnal ballot...
ask the head voter adjudicator for a REAL ballot.
IF refused you ask to file for a hearing.


Provisional ballots are rarely counted.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:32 AM

stealbackyourvote.org

democracy now radio FM

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:25 AM

DOnuel:

It would be helpful if you provided sources for some of your assertions, mate.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:19 AM

Not this one http://www.mudcat.org/Results.CFM then?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:18 AM

3.7 million voters have been purged since the last election.

First time voters in Florida must produce a government ID to vote.

20% of Colorado voters have had their voter registration suspended.

The GOP goal of eliminating 10% of Democratic voters is being reached.

This is why I have said repeatedly that Obama needs to have 15% to 25% more votes to win the electoral college.

Even then the ACORN complaints will serve as a starting point for McCain to contest the election.

One vote in Colorado has been shwon to be fraudulent so there is apush to purge a million votes to ensure there is no monkey business.


or in Chongo's case to insure there is monkey business.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:12 AM

Where did you hear that? Acorn is not a group that DOES endorsements.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:06 AM

"In what respect has it been partisan?"

Acorn endorses Obama

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Alice
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:58 AM

Snopes says it is true that you have to be careful when voting a straight ticket. Reasons are at this link.


http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/straightticket.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:18 AM

Why will using the "one button" to vote result in an undervote? They told us to vote for the president and VP separately, but they didn't say anything about not voting the rest of the ballot as a straight ticket. I just voted this morning, and I sure wish had seen that post before I went.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:30 AM

Its truely sad what we must do to steer around corruption these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:26 AM

Kendal thats the old sullied name.

McCain will win Colorado, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky and Florida by use of the computer architecture that shunts the tallies to a GOP computer Tallahasse Tennesee and sending the adjusted totals back to the states.

Other states will have Premiere Voting System (formerely called Diebold) electroinc vote flipping on site of polling places.


Purging votes of newly registered, homeless, foreclosed, soldiers and the regional poor is the other half of the Republican strategy by accusing ACORN of mass fraud and acting quickly to assure new voters are eliminated.

Listen UP

When casting your vote if you use the "one button" to vote for all democratic dandidates at once, the vote will be deemed an undervote and will not be counted.

You must vote for each person on the ballot seperatly for the votes to ve counted! (GOP voters are urged to do this in thier newsletters too.)






The magic McCain comeback will be excused as a Bradley effect.
People will shrug their shoulders and assume this country is mostly racist and stupid.
This is not the case. Karl Rove strategy has been to control the voting process. His plan is to assure a Republican victory FOREVER.

It is a shame that his strategy will once again work...unless certain GOP loyalists sabotage the sabotage that is already in place.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: kendall
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:19 AM

Can you say DIEBOLD?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:08 AM

In what respect has it been partisan?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:59 AM

The larger problem with ACORN is, it is supposed to be nonpartisan. It has received public money in the past, and petitions for more money now and will in the future. It's proven itself to be very partisan. It's not behaving like a non-profit organization.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:24 PM

John McCain condemns violence and intimidation - when he's not actively involved in inciting them. nudge nudge wink wink

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:35 PM

"Incitement" is the word.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:34 PM

Well, damn, you don't want people like that to vote, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:31 PM

Right "there is no communication between the McCain campaign & ACORN, and McCain always condemns violence and intimidation"....

goody...all he does is leave ammunition out where those who ARE inclined to violence & intimidation can find it....along with assertions that "Democracy is at risk"!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Alice
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:24 PM

Acorn reports death threats, CNN news video

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:39 AM

You mean...* gasp*...this ISN'T the most widespread voting fraud in history and WON'T destroy the very fabric of democracy?

But, John... I KNOW you'd never exaggerate...

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:29 AM

Acorn is rotten.

Time Magazine:

ACORN Embroiled in Lawsuit, Power Struggle

ACORN, the national activist group dogged by a high-profile voter registration fraud scandal, has another bruising item on its agenda when its board of directors meets here this weekend.

Leaders of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now are locked in a legal dispute stemming from allegations that the brother of the group's founder misappropriated nearly $1 million of the nonprofit's money several years ago.

The embezzlement case, a recent revelation to some board members, has spawned a lawsuit and set off a power struggle inside ACORN at a time when the liberal group's voter registration practices are the subject of fraud investigations and fodder for presidential campaign attacks.

Bertha Lewis, ACORN's interim chief organizer, called the lawsuit "a distraction from us marshaling our forces to deal with the Republican right-wing attacks" over ACORN's voter registration.

The lawsuit filed in August by two board members accuses ACORN founder and former chief organizer Wade Rathke of either concealing or failing to properly report that his brother Dale embezzled around $948,000 from New Orleans-based ACORN and affiliated charitable organizations in 1999 and 2000.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:13 AM

They wouldn't be opposed if the potential voters were Republican. It's very simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:06 AM

Interesting issue of scale: In North Caroliana, 4 cards were being investigated. Four. Out of 240,000 voters that were motivated to register by the Acorn volunteers.

According to the best democratic principal, bring out a quarter-million votes is a great contribution to the public good, yes?
So how come this is being painted by the McCainiacs as a threat to democracy?

As Alice said, watch the video and pass it on.

Because the GOP campaign against ACORN is a voter fraud of great magnitude.


A

Subject: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Alice
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:51 AM

I think this subject deserves a new thread, because this presidential election is too important to have voter suppression steal it Again!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdNgMKPV9xQ

If you discuss politics with your friends, please share this video with them and click the digg link on the you tube page.

ACORN pro-actively flags any possibly erroneous registration card they receive before it is sent to election officials. All cards filled out and given to ACORN must by law be turned in, but they work to separate suspect applications and flag them. The attacks on the credibility of ACORN are unfounded, but it has become another part of the Republican smear campaign. Again, please watch the video and pass it on.