BS: translations from the British

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 11:22 AM

As for "Kegler bowler", given earlier, some dictionaries online give 'kegler' as just meaning a bowler (tenpin or similar). But the Bowling Wiki kives a 'kegler' as a perfect game, 300 points, or 12 straight strikes.
So in this case, "kegler-bowler" would not be repetitive, using two words with the same meaning, but describing a bowler who is capable of (or has) managed to play a perfect game.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 04:17 AM

I can't myself see the connection between a hefty blow to the head and a whisper.
The word 'wisty' has been used in Lancashire for 'large', but in relation to space. eg 'She had a wisty parlour'.

In Cockney rhyming slang, castor refers to Castor and Pollox (in other words, bollocks - testicles) If one is kicked in the castors, one is not a happy bunny.

Clyster is pronounced so as to rhyme with sheister. Clyster and clister both refer to an enema.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 03:46 PM

I also liked the definition which suggested
that "whister"
came from "wheesht,"
as in "hauld yer wheesht!"

So, a blow to the ear -- back-handed, in some dictionaries --
saying "hauld yer wheesht," or "shut yer yap," in non-verbal terms.

The "clister" is just there to rhyme with "whister"?
One version pointed out that "clyster" means enema -- huh??

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 01:35 PM

Cassell's slang dictionary says it originally meant a blow on the ear in particular - the "whisty" comes from "whisper".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 12:59 PM

a blow on the ear.

    1605 Shakespeare London Prodigal B3: If it were not vor shame, chee would a giuen thee zutch a whister poope vnder the eare. 1818 W. Scott Heart of Mid-Lothian (1883) 328: I redd thee keep hand off her, or I'se lend thee a whisterpoop. 1890–1904 Farmer & Henley Sl. and Its Analogues VII 340/1: Whister-clister (Whister-snefet, Whister-snivet, Whister-twister, or Whister-poop) […] a thumping blow; spec. a back-handed blow.

wisty-castor n. (also whisty-castor) [var. on whister-clister n.]

a punch, a blow.

    1823 Egan Grose's Classical Dict. of the Vulgar Tongue n.p.: wisty castors Heavy blows given by scientific pugilists, tending to take the fight out of each other. 1832 Egan Bk of Sports 202: Neal […] now and then put in a whisty-castor, which rather changed the look of Sam's frontispiece.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 12:27 PM

What is a w[h]ister - clister ??

That's my revised question.
I started with the question,
what is a wisty castor?, after reading it in
"Friday's Child," one of the neo-Regency revival novels by
20th-century author Georgette Heyer.

When I looked up "wisty castor," the explanations suggested
that this latter is an adaptation of
"whister / wister - clister."

So, I am none the wiser.

I mean, I KNOW what they are speaking of , which is,
a pow in the kisser,
or a punch to the face/jaw/ear.

In the book, two gentlemen exchange words, and come to blows,
and one of them gives the other a "wisty castor."
That's plain enough.
So that isn't my question.

More deliberately put,
whence comes the phrase "whister - clister" ?

Many thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 04:25 PM

Aha, McGoH, I'm that as well!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 04:25 PM

"Kegler" is a bowler, applying to tenpins at least. I don't know whether it applies to a ninepin bowler or not.

"Bowler" here is not a hat; it's not a cricket player; it's a player who rolls the big heavy ball down the "alley" to try to knock down the wooden pins at the other end.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 04:19 PM

It sounds as if it might mean someone who drinks terrible beer in large quantities...

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 04:10 PM

Turning this thread around for a moment, the Spring edition of 'Guitar Aficionado' magazine carries an interview with Jeff Bridges which refers to his 'Big Lebowski' character as a 'kegler layabout'.

Now 'layabout' I understand, in fact I am one, but I've never heard 'kegler' - can a US contributor enlighten me, please?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Raedwulf
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM

As far as acronyms go, the vast majority of genuine ones post-date WWI. Anything that claims an older origin is almost certainly untrue. WWI military terminology made commonplace such phrases as Ack-emma, Pip-emma, Toc-H, Ack-ack, etc (all of which are from the WWI signallers phonetic alphabet).

If you see such claims as "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge", "Ship High In Transit", and so on, your best assumption is that someone is either trying to con you, or that they've been taken in by a plausible sounding story!

Blag, by the way, is in my OED, with the suggestion that the origin may be from the French blaguer "tell lies", at least in the sense of using the gift of the gab, if not in the sense of violent robbery.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:46 PM

As in "diamond geezer".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:17 AM

In the seventies blag used as a noun was quite common London speak for a robbery, bank job etc. I think probably popularised by tv shows such as the Sweeney ( Cockney Rhyming Slang for Flying Squad).

Geezer is one of those words with many meanings, or at least nuances, which make English the ideal language for crosswords: it can mean an unremakable person, some geezer on the bus, but by a change in tone of voice can mean someone who is a bit fly, a real man's man like Paul Whitehouse's "Tasty Geezer" in "The Fast show".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 11:48 PM

Q, that is interesting about 'chiv' going back to the 17th C (or possibly even further.) I never would have thought the word would be that old.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 01:59 PM

Thanks for the new words and the news about Little Britain. I see that there's lot of Little Britain on YouTube.

Do you really have an underground tunnel to Peru?

MthGM, I agree with you about the backformations.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 12:46 PM

Chiv - shiv, a knife. An old word, origin unknown; originally chive.
In print 1673, A thieves or cant word; English origin, examples in OED.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 12:15 PM

More fanciful than reliable - and in this case pretty despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 03:17 AM

Most of these attempts to backform acronyms as 'origins' of words, as in above supposed derivation of 'chav', are a sort of 'folk etymology' more fanciful than reliable.   

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Tangledwood
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:01 PM

'Chav' is perhaps going out of favour a bit. From the Romany word for a boy or young man, it now means a member of the benefits culture

So the story about chav being an acronym for "Council Housed, Anti-social, Violent" may be true as a description but not as the origin of the word?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:01 PM

"Shiv", however, was New York 1920s-30s slang for a knife ~~ you will find it in Damon Runyon.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:20 AM

More commonly gets spelt as "shiv" I think. It's also a Romani word.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:57 AM

Yes, 'brief' = lawyer.

'Chav' is perhaps going out of favour a bit. From the Romany word for a boy or young man, it now means a member of the benefits culture - the girls have their hair scraped tightly back so that it doesn't get in their eyes when they're pushing a baby-buggy, which they invariably are, and the boys wear football shirts which crackle slightly and emit sparks in the dark. Their sentences (verbal, not prison) end with either 'Know what I mean?', usually rendered as 'Nah mean?' or 'Innit?' and often have a rising inflection derived from Australian soap operas. UK comedians such as the 'Little Britain' team and Catherine Tate have had a lot of fun with the concept.

Not to be confused with 'chiv' which used to be a cut-throat razor used for purposes other than shaving.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:10 PM

Geezer here just means the same as bloke. You get old geezers and young geezers, just as you get old blokes and young blokes.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 04:12 PM

'Goer' reminds me of the phrase, 'go it, Jim!' (or any name) used in the South years ago and now perhaps obsolete. It meant 'put the pedal to the metal' or equivalent (do your best!).
Not the same as 'goer' but 'go' has been a part of many slang phrases or words.

Good poem!
I presume 'brief' in the above means a lawyer.
'Chav' I don't recall seeing before.

'I seen' seems to be more common than "I saw' on both sides of the Atlantic, among the 'educationally disadvantaged'.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:26 PM

Just to rewind to the concept of 'geezer' which started this thread - following the 7/7 bombings a well-dressed and articulate young man was interviewed for the TV news, as he had witnessed the destruction of a London 'bus and had seen the the body of a victim in the wreckage. His opening statement was, 'I seen this geezer in the cab'. For him, at least, no feelings of disrespect or inappropriateness - just a synonym for 'person'

Here's a slice of Sarf London life which puts 'geezer' in context, and for advanced students, introduces the concepts of 'chav', 'well fit' and 'goer'.


STREETS OF PECKHAM RYE

By Catford cop-shop wall,
I heard some geezer calling,
Leroy, they have taken you away,
For you nicked a bottle of gin, from the shop that it was in,
And now they've gone and checked your DNA.

And low lie the streets of Peckham Rye,
Where once we watched the scruffy pigeons fly,
When we went out last night, they caught you bang to rights,
And I ain't gonna be your alibi.

By that lonely cop-shop wall,
I heard a young chav calling,
Kevin, I have got to get away,
'Cos my girlfriend's got a flat, I can hide away in that,
Till it's safe to come back home to Peckham Rye.

And low lie the streets of Peckham Rye,
Where once we watched the scruffy pigeons fly,
Don't give me loads of grief, just find a decent brief,
So I can go back home to Peckham Rye.

As he walked back through Milwall,
Where kebab shops smell appalling,
Kevin thought of Leroy's girlfriend, May,
She's well fit and she's a goer,
And the more he thought it over,
He fancied seeing Leroy put away.

And low lie the streets of Peckham Rye,
Where once we watched the scruffy pigeons fly,
Now Leroy's prison bound, but Kevin's still around,
Still thieving on the streets of Peckham Rye.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 06:04 PM

The only time I've met "drummer" in that sense was in "The Runaway Train".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:02 PM

Hawker widespread. Now rare in N. Am. because they don't come around any more. (Charities and religious canvassers abundant, but I haven't heard of 'hawker' being applied to them.

In the U. S. and Canada, many long years ago, a travelling salesman was called a 'drummer'. Was this term ever used in UK?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,%^&
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:37 PM

Officially, if trying to sell, they would be a "hawker" and notices on gates do read "No Hawkers", although I don't recall ever having heard the term in oral usage.


Still relatively common in speech in Ireland - and such notices still occur at, for example, race meetings.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:21 PM

Couple of guys from the Brighton Lanes turned up in North Kent the other year asking if I had any antiques - 1960's flat, very likely. Little did they know that I came from a Brighton family and knew of cases where people who had been burgled were advised by the police to go and look in the Lanes...
I rang the police, just in case...

I'm sure there are honest Lanes dealers, but I'm a bit over cautious.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:36 AM

Just a short note on "knocker" in the sense of someone being a hawker, a door-to-door salesman.

Down here in Brighton (UK), a "knocker-boy" is someone who knocks on doors asking if the owner has any belongings - pottery, clocks, household objects, etc. - to sell. They usually work in pairs and are never to be trusted. They look round the house and, if they spot something of value, they tempt the owner by offering to buy something else of little value for more than its worth - praising it to the skies - then say something like, "Oh, and we could take that little thing (the valuable object) off your hands... not worth much... etc."

Not so common these days as people have got wise to most of it, but they do try it on with old people sometimes. Brighton is a local centre for the antiques trade, and knocker-boys had a very unsavoury reputation, verging on the criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Anne Lister
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:05 AM

Art, I do know that squash, eggplant and zucchini are common enough veg on both sides of the Pond - it was the linguistic thing that made me feel mischievous, as we don't use any of those terms here but rather stick to the terms marrow, aubergine and courgette.

And just to confirm Q's post ... I don't think any native UK speaker is likely to confuse winkle and wangle. They carry very different meanings.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 02:59 PM

Winkle is British, not American. Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says "chiefly British" and examples in OED give first usage in UK.
It came to U.S. from soldiers, c. WWI, but never commonly used.

Wangle is widespread throughout the English-speaking world including North America; first noted in 1820, as previously posted.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 12:46 AM

Way upthread there is a definition, like so -

blag: v wheedle; bluff; wangle: "I managed to blag a ride to work."

'wankle' was just a typo for 'wangle'.

Can the british wangle be related to the American winkle? Possibly. It's an interesting thought.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 08:26 PM

Americans always have had squash. them as don't like 'em don't know what they are missing.
Nothing better than the buttercup, with the hard green rind. Makes a good vegetable, a good soup, and even good pies, much like their relative, the pumpkin.
But I won't turn down Zucchini abd other summer squash either.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 06:23 PM

Anne, eggplant, zucchini and squash are normal vegetables in the US. I expect your guests were just picky.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 05:40 PM

One hundred and a bit?
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 04:33 AM

One hundred.

Terry is away at the moment :)

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 02:36 AM

Reminds me of the story of the guy who visits Boston for the first time. He's heard about the famous local dishes so when he gets in the cab at the airport he says to the driver, "Take me where I can get scrod."

The driver says, "You know, I've been asked to do that a thousand times, but never in the past-plu-perfect indicative."

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Anne Lister
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 07:17 PM

Of course the language thing cuts both ways. I was most intrigued to learn of "scrod" when in the US and after singing "Sloop John B" as a child had to find out what "grits" might be. There are other food items as well not known to those of us on the right hand side of the Atlantic, such as "collard greens", if I have the verbiage correct.   We have visitors at the moment from New England who have informed us they don't like to eat squash or zucchini or eggplant, so I have been much tempted to cook a ratatouille which would of course include courgettes and aubergines and see if they could tell ...but I'm a kind hostess and can cope with linguistic variations, so I won't.
And let's not get involved with biscuits or English muffins or the other baked goods confusions we've touched on in other threads....

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Tangledwood
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:37 PM

no one introduced me to a winkle

They must have been keeping them for their own shellfish pleasure.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:24 PM

But they would refer to people hawking their wares.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:10 PM

I mean current actual usage. I am well aware of the song. That isn't really what I meant. The people who live on our street wouldn't ACTUALLY refer to door-to-door salesmen / leaflet deliverers as "hawkers".
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:05 PM

"Officially, if trying to sell, they would be a "hawker" and notices on gates do read "No Hawkers", although I don't recall ever having heard the term in oral usage."

COME A' YE TRAMPS AN' HAWKERS

Come a' ye tramps an' hawkers an' gaitherers o' blaw,
That tramps the country roun' an' roun', come listen ane an' a'
I'll tell tae you a rovin' tale an' sichts that I hae seen
Far up into the snowy north and south by Gretna Green.

I hiv seen the high Ben Nevis away towerin' to the moon,
I've been by Crieff and Callander an' roun' by boonie Doune,
And by the Nethy's silv'ry tides and places ill tae ken
Far up into the snowy north lies Urquhart's bonnie glen.

Aftimes I've lauched into mysel' when I'm trudgin' on the road,
Wi' a bag o' blaw upon my back, my face as broon's a tod,
Wi' lumps o' cakes an' tattie scones an' cheese an' braxy ham
Nae thinkin' whaur I'm comin' fae nor whaur I'm gaun tae gang.

I'm happy in the summer time beneath the bright blue sky
Nae thinkin' in the mornin' at nicht whaur I've tae lie.
Barns or byres or anywhere or oot among the hay
And if the weather does permit I'm happy every day.

O Loch Katrine and Loch Lomond has a' been seen by me
The Dee, the Don, the Deveron that hurries into the sea,
Dunrobin Castle by the way I nearly had forgot
An' aye the rickles o' cairn marks the Hoose o' John o' Groat.

I'm up an' roun' by Gallowa' or doon aboot Stranraer,
Ma business leads me anywhere, sure I travel near an' far,
I've got a rovin' notion, there's nothing what I loss
An' a' my day's my daily fare and what'll pey my doss.

I think I'll go tae Paddy's land, I'm makin' up my mind,
For Scotland's greatly altered now, sure I canna raise the win'
But I will trust in providence, if providence will prove true
An' I will sing of Erin's Isle when I come back to you.





As sung by Jimmy MacBeath on Topic LP 12T173, "Wild Rover No More", and on Collector EP JES10, "Come A' Ye Tramps And Hawkers".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:22 PM

You got it, Geoff.

English actors do an excellent job with accents. Probably because regional accents are closer together geographically, actors develop an ear for them, and can do a good job with any accent they study.

I have told this before, but will repeat it here. In a pub in Scotland, the group at the next table was speaking in a heavy dialect. I needed directions, so I approached them with some trepidation, I wondered if I could understand what they told me. I got my answers in speech that would pass in a BBC newscast.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:57 PM

As for American regional accents, we in the UK hear them on American films. We know they are 100% authentic because they are spoken by Hannibal Lecktor (Anthony Hopkins, Brian Cox), the detective in Roger Rabbit (Bob Hoskins), Louisiana vampire Bill Compton (Stephen Moyer) and of course Sean Connery...
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:24 PM

I understand confusion between Bronx and Brooklyn accents ~ I can't tell any real difference myself ~ but certainly the Boston accent is clearly different from anything spoken in New York City, and fairly unique.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:22 PM

There is if you feel like giving it a meaning and using it. That's how English works.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM

Q - and many more variants.

Les Fromull mentions Knocking Up a meal. A similar but different construct would be Knock Out - which has nothing to do with pugilism, but to produce or manufacture something rapidly and in quantity. A Tin Pan Alley songwriter might knock out a song before lunch and another before bedtime. A potter might knock out a dozen pots an hour.

Door knockers - brass striker and plate, are still used on doors. They certainly have not been superceded by bells.
I wouldn't call a person who knocks on doors "a knocker" - a "bloody nuisance" perhaps. Officially, if trying to sell, they would be a "hawker" and notices on gates do read "No Hawkers", although I don't recall ever having heard the term in oral usage.

"Knockers" is also slang for a female bosom.

As for the winkle. Take some sand from a beach and soak it in sea water. Wrap an elastic band round it and sprinkle with brown malt vinegar. Place in mouth and chew for five minutes. You would have a fairly accurate simulation of the mollusc as a culinary delicacy.

I am with Anne Lister in the opinion that there is no such word as wankle in the "English" language and someone is mistaken in thinking there is.

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 02:31 PM

A usage that has been known to worry US-ers, as well as 'knock up' for to awaken, is to 'lay the table' ~~ which is what we do when we set out the cutlery &c in preparation for a meal ~~ an alternative usage to 'set the table'. I knew an American who imagined that nothing could be laid except a woman.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:59 PM

Les, knock-knocker are truly useful words-
That striker thing on doors (superceded by the electric bell) was called a knocker (door knocker).
A person who knocks on doors looking to sell something, or solicit a donation, is often called a 'knocker'.
In Australia a casual labourer may be called a knockabout.
Casual clothes are sometimes called knockabouts.
Knocker- a person of striking appearance, a 'stunner'.
In mines, a goblin, etc., who is heard knocking on the walls.
At the end of the 19th C., 'up to the knocker' was slang for 'up to the mark'.

There are undoubtedly more. Indeed confusing to a furriner.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:18 PM

Leeneina, of course there are the odd Americans who read (past tense, out-dated now) English mysteries (Christie and Sayers excepted), and read them (present tense)- I am one- but I was speaking of the great majority (dare I say 90+%?) who have never heard of a winkle. As an amateur malacologist, I have, but would most wonder if it is, perhaps, a small wrinkle?). Then there are crossworders and scrabblers (my wife suffers from this syndrome), peculiar people all.
On travels to jolly old, I have met with plaice (Pleuronectes), like sole a genetically confused and lop-sided thing, but no one introduced me to a winkle.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the Britishk on for the
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:08 PM

For them as don't know when workers had to get up in the middle of night a bloke with a long pole was employed to go round and knock on their bedroom window in time for them to work the early shift. This bloke was, of course, known as the 'knocker-up'. It may well be that this meaning pre-dates the pregnancy meaning, at least in the UK.

Knock up also refers to something hastily or easily assembled. You can knock up a meal from a few random ingredients, for instance.

These phrasal verbs (a verb with a preposition or two attached) cause great difficulties for people learing English, and also for English speakers from different cultures, like the difference between pissed off and pissed up.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:47 PM

I still think my all-time favorite Britism is the line in at least one Sherlock Holmes book; not sure now whether spoken by Holmes or Watson.

      "Sorry to knock you up, old chap".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Anne Lister
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:01 PM

Q - what do you mean - "if the winkle was used as a food item"? It is. Not "if". It is.   You can buy them from stalls in East London (I can point you to at least one) where they are consumed with some degree of relish, although not by me. Too gritty by far for my delicate palate. Whether or not any dictionary has a derivation for it earlier than 1925. And yes, the word is also a euphemism.

And wankle isn't used in British English as a verb, even if it's a type of engine - at least, if it is, I've never heard it. Which doesn't mean, of course, that in some obscure corner of the UK someone isn't using it at this very moment, but I think it's a typo for or misreading of wangle.

I quite like the endearments in this part of south east Wales, where you are likely to be addressed as "flower", "petal" or "blossom" as well as "love".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:38 AM

"Americans wouldn't know what a winkle is."

That's nuts, Q. You couldn't possibly know what books or travels every American has experienced.

I, for one, have known about winkles for many years.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:23 AM

I had never heard of 'winkle', so I asked my font of all wisdom. She said, "of course, it means to extract something". I responded, "never herd the word before". She said, "of course-you've never read "Mary Poppins. It means pulling little snails out with a pin".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 09:42 AM

The winkle shellfish referred to is the common periwinkle or Littorina littorea. According to Wiki they are an introduced species in North America, on both the Atlantic and Pacific coasts. Maybe you just don't eat them over there. I don't blame you, they're 'orrible.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 08:51 AM

In parts of Yorkshire, "love" is also used indiscriminately by men to men, as well as men to women and vice versa.

The mountaineer Andy Cave started his working life down the pits. In his autobiography "Learning to Breathe" it comes as a bit of a shock to find hairy-arsed miners addressing one another as "love".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:57 AM

On the other hand ~~

'The Wankel engine invented by German engineer Felix Wankel, is a type of internal combustion engine which uses a rotary design to convert pressure into a rotating motion instead of using reciprocating pistons.'
Wikipedia

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:49 AM

A Winkle is a teenyweeny shellfish that you prize out with a small pin. 'Winklepickers' (surprised no-one here has mentioned them yet) is an old fashioned term for a very pointy style of shoe popular in the 50's. Winkle is also a euphemism sometimes used by tots and their parents for the obvious as implied by MtheGM's song.. Maybe because it rhymes with 'tinkle'?

Never heard of wankle, though I've heard it lots of times without the 'le'

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:36 AM

There was a music-hall song called "I can't get my winkle out" whose chorus went

I can't get my winkle out, isn't it a sin!
The more I try to get it out the further it goes in:
I can't get my winkle out, isn't it a doer!
I can't get it out with an old bent pin, has anybody here got a skewer?

Ambivalent ambiguity surely intentional!?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:56 PM

According to the OED, 'winkle' is another soldier-sailor word, discussed in Fraser & Gibbons, Soldier & Sailor Words, 1925. It seems to me that, if the winkle was used as a food item, the word would be older than the WW1 date ascribed to it.

'Wankel', the rotary engine developed by the German inventor of that name.
Wankle not in OED Supplement of 1987.
'Wangle' as noted, is English 1820 in print. OED

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:33 PM

'Wankle' in the OED means unsettled, unsteady; not to extricate (not unless it is a usage developed after c. 1990, the latest OED I have).

'wangle" appeared in UK in print in 1888, a printer's term. Soldiers used it in WW1, and in use both sides of the pond since then; meaning to extricate, to finagle (to use a slang term).

'Winkle' in OED; Webster's Collegiate says "chiefly British," first noted 1918.
Americans wouldn't know what a winkle is.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 09:58 PM

Both the British 'wankle' and the American (I thought) 'winkle' are verbs meaning to extricate something desirable from its environment. One method uses words, the other uses hands or a tool.

I wonder if they both come from some long-forgotten root.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:29 PM

Crazy Little Woman - not sure what you are trying to say. no connection between winkle and wankel with any of the alternative spellings used.
Winkle small seawater mollusc or snail. Edible but difficult to remove from its shell. Usual extraction method was to use a pin to "winkle" it out of the shell, hence verb "to winkle" meaning extracting something which is difficult (often information from someone).
Wankel revolutionary petrol engine which gave an alternative to the usual pistons. Animated...
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Anne Lister
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:23 PM

I don't think I'd ever use wangle (not wankle!) to describe moving objects around - it's always used of human interactions as far as I'm aware. And I've used winkle as a verb as well so it's not just US English, and assumed it might have something to do with the edible winkle (the shellfish - mollusc?) which needs a pin to tease the edible bit out of the shell.
Wankle on the other hand sounds as if it should exist as a word but I've never heard it used. Wanker, yes - but let's not digress.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 03:12 PM

Mommy, iron my shirt. It's all winkled.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 02:46 PM

The British wankel may be related to the American winkle, which means to get something out of a sticky place with delicate maneuvres. (sp)

For example: "Would you please winkle the sewing-machine plug out of the grate in the hot-air register?"

I don't know if winkle is in the dictionary yet, or if it should be spelled winkle or winkel.

The link is that we wankle something with words but we winkle something with a tool.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 02:41 PM

"Are there any other Brit authors I might have missed"

This might be a good topic for a new thread, Geoff, but for now I'd like to mention the two Peters: Peter Lovesey and Peter Dickinson.

They both write detective fiction. let me warn you that they are very artful and do not write books to use to read yourself to sleep. Their works will stick with you.

I have a busy day today. No doubt I ought to be able to think of more good authors, but I can't at present.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:53 PM

Men! Like when my three brothers built a house in a huge, spreading maple tree.

They were happy to allow me to carry wood up the ladder for their fireplace - but I wasn't allowed inside. Not a wonder that I grew up accepting that girls are a lesser race.

:)

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Rumncoke
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:31 PM

Blague is a perfectly good word found in the pocket Oxford Dictionary.

The guiser jarl is the chief participant in the uphelliah - you know, there they all dress up as pretend Vikings and process with torches and burn a long ship (and girls aren't allowed to join in).

Anne Croucher

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:33 PM

"For info ~~ Northamptonshire, where I lived for some years during WWii, is very much within the "Me duck" zone."

I grew up in Peterborough (which was once in Northants for sort of 'postal purposes'). One occasionally heard 'duck' there but (if my memory serves me correct)one was usually addressed as 'mate' - as in: "are y'all roight, mate - didja come on yer boike?"

Such exquisite vernacular poetry!!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:11 PM

From the link: "A hinny is a domestic equine hybrid that is the offspring of a male horse and a female donkey (called a jenny)."

Kind of like I said, eh.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:08 PM

A string of novels set in Louisiana - a synthetic substitute for human blood has been invented, so vampires can live openly without draining live people - Sookie Stackhouse.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:31 PM

Snookie Stackhouse is the main character of the HBO vampire soap opera "True Blood."

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:26 PM

Who is Snookie Stackhouse?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:57 PM

Translations seem to be pretty well covered.
The author is not one I was aware of and didn't know if the book was old or new, so I thought I'd look him up. I found his web site http://www.grahamison.co.uk/The_Author.html. He is apparently ex-Scotland Yard.
One thing I spotted is a glossary of language used in the books by his detective and others in the stories Hardcastle's language.
It may clear up some disputes as to what the author meant as opposed to what dictionaries or current street usage might suggest.

Actually leeneia, your asking about English usage of words puts us on our toes. I enjoyed reading your previous request for a dictionary of Dalziel and Pascoe. In fact, I finally got around to buying one of Reg Hill's novels as a result of the thread (Haven't got as far as reading it yet as am tackling Sookie Stackhouse, but the thought is there).
Are there any other Brit authors I might have missed, who you would recommend from the opposite side of the pond?

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:16 PM

For info ~~ Northamptonshire, where I lived for some years during WWii, is very much within the "Me duck" zone.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:51 PM

'Blag' is often used to refer to SPEECH in particular, and especially for getting stuff for free. If you have the gift of the gab, or have a charmed tongue, then you'll be good at blagging.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:49 PM

"Duck" isn't used in the US to my knowledge. When I first called Carol "Duckie" I had to explain.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:48 PM

"My lovely" is one I quite like - makes me feel like a bit like a pirate when a barmaid says it.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:42 PM

Hinny, with a long i, is also the thing upon which one sits.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:42 PM

May luv, hon, hinny, sugar, duck and similar terms of endearment and friendliness long endure!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM

A general term of endearment, used in parts of the English Midlands (Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire - and possibly Lincolnshire - not sure), is 'duck'; as in "thanks, me duck" (approx. translation: "thank you, my dear"). This always makes me smile! Whatever you do, though, don't call anyone 'duckie'!

In Manchester, where I live, men call women, and women call men, women and children, 'love' (pronounced 'luv'). A few years ago some ladies, who worked in snack bars and cafeterias at Manchester Airport, got into trouble for calling people 'luv'. I (and several thousand Mancunians) was outraged at this! I'm delighted that I live in a city where people call each other 'love'!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:12 PM

Hmmm. My Websters Collegiate defines wangle, and says it dates back to 1820 in print.
1. To extricate oneself .....
2. To resort to trickery or devious means...to get the desired result.
3. To adjust or manipulate ...for personal....or fraudulent....means.

Blag not yet in Webster's, but I would guess, from posts here, that it soon will be.

wrangle
1. 14th C.- to engage in argument or controversy
2. to herd and care for livestock....

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:57 PM

Jenny - Hinny controversy cleared up here with illustrations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:14 AM

EDIT "... by USING subtle or cheeky means" etc.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:13 AM

Yep. 'Wangle' means to manage get something you want, that is tricky to get by subtle or cheeky means such as guile, subterfuge or indeed blagging.. It would apply to say, getting the doorman to let you in to some event you're not strictly invited to: "I wangled my way in".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:07 AM

Isn't a 'jenny' the actual female donkey?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:39 AM

Thanks for the link, McGrath.
=======
If offers this:

blag: v wheedle; bluff; wangle: "I managed to blag a ride to work." Or: "I had no idea what I was talking about but I think I managed to blag it."
========
Now, is there really a slang word 'wangle'? Because I would say 'wrangle,' a word which may be derived from horse-handling.

My husband was just lamenting that his Wrangler jeans are wearing out.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:00 AM

The offspring from a male horse and a female donkey is called a hinny. I've always know that as being a Jenny or a Jinny.

And used to be known in Ireland as a jennet.

But OED Defines a jennet as a small spanish horse if I remember correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:44 AM

The offspring from a male horse and a female donkey is called a hinny. I've always know that as being a Jenny or a Jinny.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:57 AM

Yes, dear Ebbie: but there are lots of examples of homonyms & homophones, so don't be mulish...

Best   

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:50 AM

"British isn't a language".

Yes it is, but it's usually known as Welsh nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:01 AM

Hmmmm

The offspring from a male horse and a female donkey is called a hinny.


Just sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:43 AM

"This is especially so in the North-EAST, AROUND NEWCASTLE, WHERE THE WORD "HINNY", a locally-pronounced derivation OF "HONEY", HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE EQUIVALENT OF "LUV" OR "MATE" ~~"

That is very true and it is so right up into north Northumberland. I've often been called 'hinny' by females working in shops, bars etc. Even still get the occassional 'son' by older women - which is not bad for someone approaching 50 :-)

In Scotland the term 'hen' is a very common term used by males when addressing females. I suspect it is also just derived from 'honey'

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:48 AM

Sorry ~~ "Geordie Hinny" written by Joe Wilson, not George Ridley [Who wroye 'Blaydon Races']. Apologies for confusion.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:42 AM

>>>Honey still varies in usage in spite of feminists. In some places it is used much like the cockney 'luv'.<<<

This is especially so in the North-EAST, AROUND NEWCASTLE, WHERE THE WORD "HINNY", a locally-pronounced derivation OF "HONEY", HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE EQUIVALENT OF "LUV" OR "MATE" ~~

as in the well-known mid-C19 George Ridley song, "Keep your feet still, Geordie-Hinny". (Btw 'Geordie', as well as a familiar form of George, is the nickname for a native of Newcastle, as is 'Scouse' for one from Liverpool, &c.)

{Apologies for accidents above with Shiftlock ~~ didn't mean to shout!}

Best regards, my hinnies,

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 07:35 PM

You might like this - A British slang dictionary with audio pronunciations

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 06:41 PM

"Honey" and "hon" are definitely flourishing in the US of A. However, a cagey businessman carrying on an affair with an MP's wife is most unlikely to use it in the presence of the Detective Chief Inspector.

Here in Missouri people use "hon" to give you the bad news gently, as in "There's a hardware store, but they be closed now, hon."

And then there's the stressed-out "honey" that you hear between married couples. "Honey, I TOLD you that the checking account had less than $200 in it!"
======
Thanks for the updates on 'blag.' It is obviously a word that's getting popular and is also in transition.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 06:04 PM

Da spring has sprung da grass is riz
I wonder where da boidies is
Dey say da boid is on da wing
But that's absoid
'Cos da wing is on da boid.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 05:37 PM

Jimmy Durante was from Brooklyn, not the Bronx. People from Brooklyn talk funny - ask my mother, who is from the Bronx.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 05:35 PM

Haven't heard 'blag'. Not in Lighter's American slang dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM

I'll accept that verbal usage of "blag", but as a noun,I think my version is correct.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 05:13 PM

Shouldn't that be "poritica collectness"?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 04:36 PM

rarger, of course, is larger.
When I was in the Army (WW2), in joking around, we faked a Japanese accent by changing all L's to R's and R's to L.s. A woman wore ripstick, flowers were frowers, etc.
The Japanese didn't know how to pronounce these sounds until political correctness became the raw of the rand.

I hate to tell ya, but Americans west of the Mississip. don't know Bronx from Boston or Brooklyn, they are not exposed to natives of those exotic places except when tourists (or some relatives) come through. I know that some non-Brahmin Bostonians add a terminal 'r' to words ending in 'a', but I found that out on visits to the far east (New England). That terminal 'r' was (is?) also found in parts of England.

Honey still varies in usage in spite of feminists. In some places it is used much like the cockney 'luv'.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 04:27 PM

With the complication that American English comprises and enonmous range of different dialects.

One difference is that we're accustomed to hearing Americans all the time on TV and in films, in a way that isn't true the other way round to the same extent. That means that while we might get it wrong if we try to talk your language, we generally understand it pretty well, even the stranger bits.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Bainbo
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 04:26 PM

While con or bluff is a perfectly good definition of "blag". I'd have thought it has a slightly more precise meaning within that - to get something for free to which you're not properly entitled, as in: "I managed to blag my way on to the guest list" or "I 've blagged us a couple of tickets for the royal box." I accept that you could perfectly well substitute con or bluff in either of those cases - it's just that both words are capable of being used in a wider context, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 04:12 PM

"Here are your grits and eggs honey" is something often said in the Waffle House and other fine dining establishments.

Waitresses are far more likely to use the clipped form "hon" (pron. hun) than "honey". From my experience in many parts of the country.

And by the way - British isn't a language. It's only a mongrel nationality.

No, but it's a dialect or set of dialects that is distinguishable from American English by vocabulary and spelling and to a lesser extent grammar.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 04:11 PM

Cubicle has the sense of a washroom enclosure in N. Am but in business also refers to those little areas with movable walls, often about 5 feet tall, which cut off individual work areas in a large room. I have seen both usages in UK fiction as well as N. Am.

Geezer is an old word, formerly heard in U.S. as well as UK, but largely gone out of use. Not just an old man, ('old geezer') but applied to others as well- Lighter, Historical Dictionary of American Slang, dates it back to 1885 in England, 1893 in U. S.-Chicago Stories, "Like a great big geeser, I only puts on ten. Well, I win twenty-five."
Gong has many meanings, but in the one quoted it is a medal or award. Found in WW1 slang, later in both army and navy slang, in the U. S.
Now, it means (usually), in "Hit the gong," to smoke opium (or whatever. It also can mean to go on a spree.
Figaro doesn't seem to have crossed into N. Am. A heavy necklace or chain, often worn by spivs. but now applied to a heavy necklace for a woman or man.

Flog Both UK and N. Am., has changed meaning somewhat. Originally WW1, illegal sale of army goods. It appeared in True Confessions, an American magazine- "fake [jeweled goods] that he flogs to to parents whose sons are being ordained." Said of Geraldo Rivera (remember him?)- "...his new book that he is flogging around the country."

leeneia, you seem to be somewhat isolated from the language as she is spoke in N. Am.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 04:04 PM

blag = theftuously to take. Once largely confined to bank robbery, now to rob (rather than steal from) almost any organisation premises or institution.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 04:04 PM

Blag is bluff, a sort of a con trick perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 04:01 PM

"Honey" is alive and well here in Indiana.

Yesterday I was looking for a given product in Sam's Club (a subsidiary of Wal-Mart), and asked a female employee where it would be in the store. After some conversations to establish what I was looking for, she said, "Sorry, we don't carry that, honey."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 03:57 PM

As uausl, this 'translations from' thread has generated a nice number of interested responses. The Mudcat is a good place to go to talk about language per se.

Georgiansilver and Jeri, thanks for explaining about the figaro chain.

A note to whoever it was said "Google is your friend": Wise up. Most of us are on this thread because we want to chat with somebody for a little while. Also, because we are in that minority who share an interest in lanaguage. If you want to be efficient, be efficient on the job.
======
It's interesting that 'geezer' is so different in our two countries. Has it always been that way?
========
Crow Sister, thanks for the link. The rhymes in that are amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 03:48 PM

I forgot one.

I can't find it in the book, but somewhere someone used the verb 'blag.'

What does it mean to blag?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 03:40 PM

The sound on that was rubbish, this one's better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lk7UGWKfkc

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM

"I love this phrase, a geezer in the boozer. Somebody ought to write a song about it."

I think you'll like this then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-JIzWFfsPk

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: mayomick
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 03:28 PM

Geezer is from the irish word gaysur for boy ,but you don't here it used in Ireland .According to one of the poems of the Irish poet Paul Muldoon, hoodlum is backslang for muldoo (muldoon) - the name of an early 20 century San Francisco street gang .

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 03:25 PM

..."rarger rout" ~~ clearly [conventionally supposed] Japanese pronunciation of "lager-lout" ~~ a composite, now obsolescent English idiom for a young binge-drinker who behaves in a disorderly/aggressive manner in a public place. At one time, strong lager was the fashionable drink among such misbehaving young men: I am not sure if this is still the case. In any event, "lager-lout" is, as I say, now a somewhat weary locution which has been superseded by "binge-drinker".

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 03:14 PM

I'd also like to know why a "guy" would be talking to his wife in a "cubicle" - which is often used in the UK for a compartment for a washdown closet in a lavatory. Isn't it taking togetherness a bit too far?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 03:12 PM

I think "geezer" is more respectful or even marginally admiring than "hoodlum" or "punk". Think "Real Bloke" but of more questionable legality or morality.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 03:06 PM

"Here are your grits and eggs honey" is something often said in the Waffle House and other fine dining establishments.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 02:08 PM

I meant to say: In neither case would 'honey' be appropriate. Unless he was 80 years old and she was his granddaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 02:06 PM

In the given situation, if an American were trying to be formal/posh, he would be likely to say: Well, my dear, I must be going.

If he were being informal and he knew the widow well - especially if the widow were American born - most likely he would say: Well, hon, I've gotta go.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Charmion
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 02:02 PM

It's something the guy in the next cubicle always calls his wife, although she has a perfectly serviceable name.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 01:51 PM

I thought it was more something ladies said, maybe for analogous reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 01:40 PM

IT went out of favor at the peak of the feminist movement in the 80's or 90's when used by male chauvinist pigs to enslave women with condescending sexist terminology. ;>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM

Is "honey" anachronistic in America now?

Not when referring to either bee vomit or one's significant other.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 01:11 PM

Figaro chain here!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 12:56 PM

Is "honey" anachronistic in America now?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 12:56 PM

If you want a full, illustrated example and definition of "geezer" used that way watch "Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels."

In it a geezer is a tough, "street" type guy who is involved in illegal things.

I think "hoodlum" or maybe "punk" as they were used in the 40's and 50's would be the closet American terms.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Newport Boy
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 12:33 PM

And by the way - British isn't a language. It's only a mongrel nationality.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 12:32 PM

Flog==sell, usually informally.

A tin-eared American businessman could easily slip into the anachronistic "honey", especially if in a flirtatious mode, but he'd be more likely to follow it with "I've got to go" or "Gotta split".

Growing up in New England, the Bronx accent was legendary, but I don't know how cosmopolitan an average English detective would be.

Rarger clearly stands for "lalgel", but I do not know what lalgel means! :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 12:31 PM

Flog = sell
Gong = literally medal, in this reference, an award in the next honours list.
Figaro neck chains - readily to be bought all over the internet. Mr Google is your friend.
Number 5 - We wish Americans would leave English alone.
When an Englishman says "Bronx accent" he means sounding like Jimmy "Schnozzle" Durante.
Rarger = Lager

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the British
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 12:30 PM

Flogged = sold
Rarger = lager
and figaro is a type of chain.

Plus, I can pretty much tell a general cockney accent from a Yorkshire one (not so good at Yorkshire vs Lancashire), so why couldn't a British person who watches American movies be able to figure out a Bronx accent?

Subject: BS: translations from the British
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 12:18 PM

I just read a mystery called 'Breach of Privelege' by Graham Ison. It's about a Det. Chief Inspector of Scotland Yard who's investigating the murder of an Member of Parliament.

So here we go, seeking translations and making observations about homegrown words in the book.

1. "Who did you sell it (a motorcyle) to?"

"It was a geezer in the boozer."

I love this phrase, a geezer in the boozer. Somebody ought to write a song about it.

However, in America a geezer is an old man. In England it seems to mean 'guy.'

2. "I did flog it to him, honest."

Flog?

3...strings were pulled, possibly even a gong or two promised.

gong?

4. ...a silver figaro neck chain.

Figaro? Presumably not the Barber of Seveille.

5. An American businessman turns to the widow of the MP and says, "Well, if you'll excuse me, honey, I must be going."

Take it from an actual American, 'honey' is all wrong here. To name just one thing, the rough-and-ready 'honey' does not belong with the posh 'I must be going'.

I wish English authors who want to write dialog for Americans would have an American read it and tell them when they are way off base.

6. ..the strong Bronx accent with which he spoke.

I have to tell you that I sincerely doubt whether an English detective could tell the differences among the many accents of America's Northeast.

I am an American, and I can't. (I've never lived in the Northeast.)

Here is a nice YouTube that gives examples of five accents from New York alone.

accents of New York

Then there's the similar Boston accent. There's the speech of Maine. There's even a sort-of similar accent in Michigan.

No, you can't pinpoint that somebody is from the Bronx without extensive experience modified by intelligence. (Or whatever it was the great Nero Wolfe used to say.)

7. There is a donnybrook at the Keffiyeh Embassey pursuant to an arrest. People are thrown about, profiteroles are obliterated, and a Japanese diplomat protests about "Ingrish rarger routs!".

Clearly,

Ingrish = English
routs = louts

but what are rargers?