BS: Nazi salute in church

Subject: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: mg
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:29 AM

No lie. They do this in my church, Catholic. And this is fairly new as far as I know. We never did it growing up. It is not a tradition that we always had and the Nazis took over, like they took over the swatzika, or the nice hiking songs. This is something new that they have imposed on us. Some people look just like in the old films. Some sort of at least bend their arms or half way do it. I refuse to do it at all and I write very strong notes and put them in the collection plate. I can not fathom for the life of me why they, whoever they are, the same ones that come up with the super ugly songs they sing now, would come up with this. Is this done in other Catholic churches? Other religions? What would people think if they walked in this church and saw a congregation of mostly older people, old enough to be at least children or teens in WWII, doing this? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:33 AM

I haven't seen this on '60 minutes'.

This has got to be a put on.

Why are you still going there?

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:40 AM

??? that is a strange post....you never say exactly what they are doing, and when, and 'how' they are dressed...and how the priests act...etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: mg
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:40 AM

Because I am a Catholic. I should say we don't shout Heil Hitler but it is the arm thing. Supposed to be a blessing thing. Some blessing I would say. But it is a good question. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: mg
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:43 AM

Well, sometimes we don't have priests in this parish. We share with another parish. Maybe I should check and see if they only do it when the priest is not there. Tonight it had to do with who had birthdays in September. They say a prayer and people go up to the altar and the congration does the Nazi salute. This is not part of the liturgy that I grew up with. I'm OK with the birthday part though. This is not a joke. it is for real that they do this.    mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:56 AM

I've seen stuff on TV where congregations of Protestant churches were holding their arms out in the way you describe (and waving them around a bit at the same time). While it looked a bit cloying to me, I didn't make that connection between what they were doing and the Nazi salute. I had the impression they were more along the lines of evangelical congregations though. I'm surprised to hear about it being done in Catholic churches.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 01:22 AM

Mary, I am not a Catholic . I was raised Presbeterian but today claim no faith except a strong belief that the Universe contains far more than what we can comprehend. As a child our minister always extended his arm while he was doing the benediction. I never before associated this with the nazi salute , but for sure the motion was the same although the intent was far different.
As a person with a strong Scottish heritage I have an understanding of the tradition of the "firey cross". This has also been stolen from our culture by assholes in the KKK , so that it means something far different from what it once stood for. From what you say, the same may happen to the blessing of the extended arm.
         Obie

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 02:50 AM

Uhmm..no Nazi salute in Church services..Catholic and all..if you want to debate Popes role in ww2 then I will listen..but ..otherwise..maybe you need to find a new Parish.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 03:45 AM

Emperor Augustus

There's even a better fittng statue but I didn't find it.
Long before it was called 'Hitler salute' in Germany it was called 'Roman salute'. Perhaps that's the idea, a roman salute in a Roman catholic church?

But I agree they shouldn't adopt something which has bad connotations for many.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:02 AM

Pope saluting

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: mg
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:12 AM

Obie and others...this to my knowledge was not a Catholic tradition that the Nazis stole and made forever evil. It is something imposed on us sheep-like Catholics post-Nazi era. That is what makes it so sickening to me. If there were a long tradition, and maybe there was that I am unaware of, of using that pose, and they wanted to reclaim it I could understand. But not imposing it on us with all its connotations. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:53 AM

Mary, I understand your discomfort, but I'm not sure that what you're seeing is actually a "Nazi salute." In many traditions, blessings are given with an outstretched arm. For example, in Judaism, both arms are often outstretched when the rabbi gives what is called the priestly blessing.   In this instance, the person's elbows are slightly bent, and his or her hands are open with the fingers spread, and the palms face the congregation. I imagine that this is true of many other raised-arm religious blessings. Whereas in the Nazi salute, the arm and hand are held in a rigid line, palm down, with thumb and fingers closed together. It could be that the intent was to have a "blessing-like" gesture but some people do it differently so it resembles the military salute. Hard to say without seeing it in person. If other people in your church have the same reaction, then it might be worth mentioning it to whoever makes the decisions about such things.

Aloha,
Mark

PS, For those who might be interested, when the priestly blessing is given by a Kohen (a descendant of the priests at the Temple in Jerusalem, who were descendants of Moses' brother Aaron), the hands are not separated but are held together in a particular posture, which symbolizes the letters of the name of God, and also represents a window through which the Divine presence is seen. Leonard Nimoy saw this gesture as a boy, and appropriated half of it to make the Vulcan "Live long and prosper" sign!

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: mg
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:57 AM

I would say it closely resembles the Nazi salute with the rigid arm. I haven't noticed what fingers were doing. Some people do not do the rigid arm. I don't do any of it. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 07:09 AM

I looked at the piccies.
Some might call it 'extending a blessing' - atheists would call it 'waving'.

Not a Nazi Salute.

1) Change your place of worship until you find one more compatible with your comfort zone.

or

2) Seek Professional Help.

or

3) You are winding us up.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Mooh
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 07:26 AM

'Thought you were equating the RC church with the Nazi party. I see now you weren't. However, being raised Anglican, it makes for good choir loft amusement. Sounds like a massive misunderstanding on someone's part.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: kendall
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 07:44 AM

I remember as a small boy in school we used to extend our right arm, palm down pointing to the flag and recite the pledge of allegience. Then, suddenly we we told that we were not to do that anymore, but we were to put our hand over our hearts instead. That was in the late 30's or early 40's.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 07:58 AM

Mary, the most sensible thing to do would be to ask the priest why. I feel you are putting us in a position to judge without any knowledge about what we are judging. If it was indeed the Nazi salute - I'd be out of there never to return (unless I felt I could do anything about it) but I think it far more likely you are missreading something.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: bbc
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 09:38 AM

Hi, Mary,

I was very surprised when I saw the subject line for this thread. Obviously, doing a Nazi salute in church would be considered inappropriate & abhorrent by the vast majority of people. Have you ever talked to the folks who make that sign & asked them what their motivation & intended meaning is? I am of Protestant Christian background & have worshipped in many kinds of churches. For the past 15 years or so, I have worshipped in Church of the Nazarene, an offshoot of Methodism. I also have friends who are Assembly of God. I have frequently seen folks raise one or both of their arms (bent or unbent) in response to singing during the service or something that the worship leader has said. To the best of my understanding & in my personal experience, this is a heartfelt response to what is being said, in the same category as saying "amen." It indicates that the person agrees w/ what has been said or sung. It is a proclamation of faith & a show of support to the worship leader. Sometimes, it is done quietly & inconspicuously; sometimes, it is more flamboyant. If the use of this gesture offends you, it may be appropriate to discuss it w/ your priest & the congregation; it may be appropriate to pray about it & see if you can come to peace w/ it. I think this expression is becoming more widespread as people move around & participate in various expressions of Christian worship. I hope this may help you. Feel free to PM me, if I can clarify this any more for you.

best,

Barbara (Protestant in NY)

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 09:45 AM

Garth Brooks got it too, as well as the waving, at his concerts. Maybe body language is just body language, used differently in different settings but outwardly looking the same. We do have a limited number of body parts to express a wide range of thought and feeling.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 09:47 AM

After a little more serious thought, I've realised that you may have stumbled into a group of English Football supporters that are only half pissed...

Not realy Protesting today...

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: bbc
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 11:35 AM

P.S. from bbc--

Mary, I remember seeing this gesture in churches long before I started doing it myself & I remember thinking about it at some length. I didn't want to do it to "go along w/ the crowd" & I didn't want to be seen as someone whose feelings had overwhelmed my reason. I only lift my hands in praise & affirmation when I feel that the Holy Spirit is prompting me to do so &, then, only in what I hope is a quiet, non-distracting way.

best to all,

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:39 PM

Mary, I think the world of you, but I am not sure what you are thinking on this one. To even label it as a Nazi salute defies logic. I am a Catholic, and I have never seen anyone do a Nazi salute. Just because something looks similar, doesn't mean that is what it is. Isn't a salute an expression of loyalty to a cause, philosophy, or leader? Because, as a military person, I happen to have saluted the same way as many of my enemies, does that mean we supported the same cause? You should ask the simple question as to what the intent is. If it is simply the ritual act of a blessing, that is how it should be taken.

I have attended Catholic Mass all over this country, and in several others. I have never seen anything that any thinking, rational person could construe as a "Nazi" salute, nor have I heard anyone mouth sentiments that could be in any way construed as giving honor or sympathy to a Nazi point of view.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 01:12 PM

Kendall, being quite ancient, I remember this. While reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, the right arm was extended toward the flag, elbow straight, fingers straight, and in line with the arm. This was the same as the Nazi salute, and that's why it was changed to placing the right hand over the heart early during World War II (I was in the Boy Scouts at the time, and they were real tight on the Flag Code and other such things [it has since become a pretty tight-assed conservative organization]).

Mary, unless there is something else occurring in the church you attend that would support some pretty strange things within that individual church, I think you're probably reading something into it that isn't really there. I attend a Lutheran church (irregularly), and the pastor, at the end of the service, extends her right arm (elbow slightly bent, palm toward the congregation) and bestows the closing blessing. I have seen other pastors raise both arms in a similar manner. I have also seen pastors bestow the closing blessing while raising both arms, elbows well-bent, palms toward the congregation, in a sort of "hands up!" gesture. I think this is probable just the style of the individual pastor or priest.

One robin doth not a spring make. Two robins, perhaps. Three robins, quite probably.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: GUEST,KT, not signed in.
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 01:24 PM

There are so many very good answers up there. To these, I would add only this. Usually, before the congregation extends their arms, they are gently invited or asked by the priest to do so as a means of support and blessing upon those for whom it is intended. For example, "Please join me in a blessing for so and so on their birthday." (or their anniversary or whatever)

It is an invitation to participate as a community, to bless and support one another. The positioning of arms and hands is in no way meant to reflect the Nazi salute. Although I don't know the history about why or how it was decided to include it as a current part of the celebration, it is clear that the intent is to allow blessing to flow through us to one another.

If it makes you uncomfortable because of the association you hold with that particular symbol, don't participate in the physical gesture. But don't allow your discomfort with the gesture make your miss the opportunity to "bless" the person in your heart.

KT

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 02:03 PM

Mary -

Where do you live?

...also, I don't think you should do anything that makes you uncomfortable, especially in church. Church should be a place where you feel comfortable, safe and "at home" with the congregation and the priest.

Maybe this is why I don't go to church at all.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: brid widder
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 02:32 PM

As a child at school we were instructed to raise our hands in this way to attract the teachers attention... to offer an answer to a question... to ask to leave the room! ... I started school 10 years after the end of the war... no-one ever suggested the gesture was inappropriate or Nazi... it wasn't!! neither is it when used in church... does your church express Nazi opinions... if so leave & go somewhere where you feel more at home... Nazism was... is aboout much more than arm gestures.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:00 PM

We used to stick our hands up at school when we wanted to ask the teacher a question. No one thought it meant we were Nazis...

As WYSIWYG put it "We do have a limited number of body parts to express a wide range of thought and feeling."

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:01 PM

Mary:

I was a Catholic for many years, converting to the religion as an adult. I never once saw anything vaguely resembling a "salute." I'm a spiritual mongrel, having grown up Methodist, mostly, then becoming a Lutheran after I left the Catholic faith, and am now a Baptist. A northern Baptist, thank you.

As bbc stated it so well, when people feel moved in the Spirit, they often will raise one, or both hands in praise. It's is done as an affirmation of a prayer, or a song, or a scripture and while it was never part of my culture growing up, it has slowly come to feel natural to me. But, it sure ain't a salute. If it was, it'd be a salute to Jesus, I think.. not to be confused with "Heil Hitler."

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:27 PM

Hi, Mary -

It's an ancient, traditional symbol of extending a blessing, used in the Catholic Church for at least a millenium or two before Hitler was born. However, before the Second Vatican Council in the 1960's, blessings were usually given only by priests. As Mark Cohen said, the tradition of extending blessings dates back far before the time of Christ. Somehow, the universality of blessings got forgotten in the Cahtolic Church during the Middle Ages, and it was usually priests who gave blessings. In the restoration of the ancient liturgy that took place during and after Vatican II, it was recognized that we all should ask God's blessing on others - and so lay people once again began to use this gesture.

I was blessed by our parish in this way when I was commissioned as a delegate to our diocesan synod. That blessing from the whole community meant a lot to me, much more than a blessing that came just from a priest.

And no, it has nothing at all to do with Hitler. It's an ancient tradition that has been restored. So, not to worry, Mary.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 09:21 PM

There are many very subtle nuances in the extending or raising of the arms - they go back so far that the great apes share some of them.

The angles, and there are many possibilities of different orientations are important.

I find signs expressive - being female and having curved limbs the rotation of the arm from the shoulder is probably more distinct - I think it proves that females communicated more even before they could use words.

The civillian Nazi salute was quite distinct in the straightness of the arm, projecting forward from the shoulder and slightly inwards, palm down hand flat - so when looking at the person being saluted the saluter sees the hand over the head - implications of adoration, homage owed. It was also quite extended in time - at rallies it seemed to be held for many minutes.

Notice if you ever see film of Hitler acknowledging the crowds how he keeps his elbow down close to his ribs, hand raised up so he views the masses over his hand, indicating his separation, difference, and control. I once heard it described as 'namby pamby'- though the describer saw my point when I remarked that there seemed to be no one sniggering. No one would dare.

Simply extending the right hand up and out is not a Nazi salute, and perhaps holding the out held hand as though pouring something from a cupped hand over the people it is directed towards should indicate the true spirit of the gesture in church.

I feel it is not right to allow an entire repertoire of gestures to be tarnished by association with one particular and very precise salute.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 09:40 PM

Why must a raised arm be forever copyrighted by the Nazis? What if they had customarily shaken hands? Would we all have to stop doing that too? The swastika is an ancient symbol that was used long before the Nazis, and they turned it the other way. Is a swastika itself evil? Is a raised arm evil?

If they are not consciously emulating Naziism in your church, Mary, then they are not emulating Naziism at all. You're judging the book by its cover, in my opinion.

But if you just can't stand it because of the emotional associations that you feel over it, then I guess you have a problem, and you may have to go to another church to solve that problem.

You know, just because Hitler happened to co-opt a bunch of old cultural symbols that had been around for ages (the Roman salute, the Roman Eagle standards, the Swastika symbol, the Nordic legends, the German Cross, etc, etc, etc.) does not mean that those symbols belong exclusively to Hitler from now till eternity or that they are inevitably associated with evil.

Really, for heaven's sake...do you honestly think your church is trying to give the Nazi salute??? They're making a gesture of blessing.

I resent Hitler being given a permanent monopoly (in various people's minds) over a perfectly good gesture which was around long before the Nazis were ever heard of or dreamt of.

What's more important, Mary? Outer form or inner intention? What would Jesus have said about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 09:49 PM

Mary ... you are wise to ask this question. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 10:36 PM

I bet people were discussing stuff like this back in the days of the Spanish Inquisition too...only it was "imps of satan" they were looking for then, not Neo-Nazis. Every age has its own boogeymen that it obsesses over...going by the outer form, and NOT the inner intention, because it's so much easier to sieze upon outer forms than to actually look within a person for what's really there.

I hope I reincarnate next time in a time and place far distant where nobody has ever even heard of the fecking Nazis! I'm sick of it. It is used as an excuse to cover up and justify other iniquities, to launch new wars and atrocities, to persecute new targets of opportunity.

The people presently ruling in the White House are far more dangerous to the World at this time than the Nazis (given that the Nazis are basically defunct as a power base in this World)...and their chosen outer symbols are the American flag, the American Eagle, the US Marine Corps, the White Star, the US dollar, and stuff like that. Judge them by their intentions and actions, NOT by their outer symbols. Any symbol can be used for good or for evil with equal facility.

Look how the Christians have used the cross in the last 20 centuries...for good and for evil...

The Germans used the cross too. It was (and is) their main national military insignia. A black and white cross. Where do you think that came from? It came from the Christian religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: maire-aine
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 11:28 PM

I hope you will talk with the priest or the person leading the service. That's the only way you'll get to the bottom of the issue. I have seen occasions where the congregation was asked to stand and extend their hands toward someone who was being blessed for some special reason. But it was something that doesn't happen very often.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 12:11 AM

And what will you do if you find out that it is not a Nazi salute?

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Jeanie
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 05:01 AM

Here is the "On-line Guide to Charismatic Body Language", as observed in the ever-so-slightly irreverent and very tongue-in-cheek Christian website, The Ship of Fools, by Rev. Gerald Ambulance

I thoroughly recommend the outpourings of the "Rev. Gerald" (and his co-writer Stephen Tomkins). His book "My Ministry Manual" is hilarious, especially his tips on writing modern worship songs. Only for those who approve of humour allied to worship. Be warned !

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 06:40 AM

This is not a nazi salute it is a way in which a blessing is signified in many churches.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 06:58 AM

"...they go back so far that the great apes share some of them."

Like beating your chest at the "I Confess".

........................

Maggie Thatcher used to do "keeps (his) elbow down close to (his) ribs, hand raised up" as a way of silencing interviewers. It works quite well in other situations - for example, when you don't want to be stopped by someone inspecting tickets, or are trying to go somewhere that is sort of not open to the public. Not always, but surprisingly often - it more or less says "this is all sorted out already - don't delay me".

If I was a ticket inspector, I'd be inclined to insist on a strip search of anyone who tried it on me. (What a horrible thought with Maggie Thatcher...).

It's also something glove puppets go in for, for reasons of anatomy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Blues=Life
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:09 AM

Mary, I was at my daughter's school the other day, and that evil teacher had 24 5th graders doing the Nazi salute. Oh my God, she should be fired! What? Oh, they just knew the answer?
Never mind.










I wouldn't be worried about the church. I'd be worried why you automatically connected an upraised arm with Nazism. Check your own eye for logs, before worrying about specks in others.
:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 10:29 AM

Say forty sieg heils my child, and sin no more....

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 12:56 PM

LOL! Best line yet...

How the hell can people still be this scared of a political movement that was beaten and bombed into smoking wreckage 59 years ago in the rubble of Berlin and has less credibility today with 99% of humanity than OJ Simpson does?

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: mg
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 01:13 PM

It exists like a recipe exists. The cake might be crumbled into dust or bombed to bits. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 01:23 PM

I agree with Jon about asking. If something seems incongruous, it makes sense to do that. Symbols and symbolic gestures often are passed down years and adopted, and what they mean to one particular group is more important than assigning meaning based on what another group used them for in the past. You may choose not to use the gesture yourself, but if it's sybolic to what a group of folks, it just makes sense to find out what it's symbolic of to them, or you may wind up believing things about them that aren't true.

I once went to a party when I was in Korea. It was on the rooftop of an apartment buildings, since space is at a premium and rooftops are often residents' common areas. I looked around at the town below and saw many huge, bold swastikas painted on buildings and signs. I thought "Wow...I didn't know there were so many Nazis in South Korea!" I didn't automatically BELIEVE it though, because it just didn't seem to make sense. I asked, and was told the symbol marked Buddhist temples. The arms of the symbol pointed in the opposite direction from the ones on a swastika. I could have gone on insisting they looked too much like swastikas and been bothered every time I saw one, but I couldn't have done anything about them. The Nazis got the swastika and the salute from somewhere else, anyway. The Ku Klux Klan seem to like crosses, but I don't think Christians are going to give those up without a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: mg
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 02:50 PM

I repeat. This is not a practice that as far as I know has been in usage in the Catholic church. It is new probably in the last year or so to me. I have been Catholic my whole life. I never saw it pre or post Vatican council. If you see these people at church, and you see clips of the old war films, you could not tell the difference. I would be all for reclaiming or keeping something that had meaning. It has no continuous historical meaning. maybe they did it centuries ago but they haven't done it in my lifetime. I am not in any way suggesting they have any Nazi inclinations. It is one of those sensitivity things. Why do something with those connotations when it is not something you have always done? Why start it? Use another body part in a less offensive manner. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 03:19 PM

If they do not have Nazi inclinations, then what is the problem? Children in school use essentially the same gesture when raising their hand to indicate they have the answer to a question (as someone else pointed out). It's a pretty basic and natural movement, after all, for a human being to make with their arm.

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 04:28 PM

You're absolutely right, Mary. The Catholic Church is a subversive neo-Nazi organization that intends to lead the world to Hitler. It's all a subversive plot, and the world will soon be taken over by Nazi priests and nuns who arrive in black helicopters, singing super ugly songs and goose-stepping with outstretched arms. It was a good place in the days of your childhood, but it was taken over by Nazi spies after World War II. Soon, it will take over the world and bring it to Hitler.

Don't bother asking a priest for an explanation. He'll only lie to you and tell you the extended arm is an ancient symbol of blessing that has been used for millenia. He'll say the gesture has always been used by priests in giving blessings, but that it hadn't been used by lay people in the last few centuries, until it was restored recently. See? That proves he's a Nazi! All lies!!!

There - are you happy now?
If you are, then I have to say I'm very disappointed in you. I think you need to do some serious thinking, and it really would be a good idea for you to talk with a priest or other parish leader. You have a lot of misconceptions to let go of. Open your mind and spend some time studying the history of Catholic rituals and symbols. Almost all of the "new" practices are restorations of ancient traditions that had been practiced for centuries and forgotten in the Middle Ages. Those "ugly" songs that use scripture texts for lyrics are a good example.

-Joe Offer, who must be a heretic because he has a Theology degree from a Catholic seminary-

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: bbc
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 06:27 PM

Mary, I'm sorry you feel that way. I feel quite sure the folks at your church don't intend to be offensive. If you don't want to ask them or the priest for input, perhaps you should consider why you are reacting so strongly to this phenomenon. I suspect that the negative feelings you seem to have about it will affect your ability to worship there. We can rarely change others. Good grief! It's hard enough to effect any changes in ourselves. If you can't get past this, you could consider leaving that church body. Chances are, though, you will see the same gesture elsewhere at some time. I hope you can resolve this, for your own emotional & spiritual good.

best,

Barbara

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 07:07 PM

Mary, when I was working at a classical music radio station a few decades back, I received a phone call from a listener who exploded all over me. He sounded like a somewhat older man, which he was, and he had a fairly thick German accent. He had taken extreme offense at a piece of music I had just played.

He told me that he was Jewish, and he had barely escaped death in one of the concentration camps. Because of the painful memories invoked by his surroundings in Germany, his homeland, he emigrated to America as soon as he was able. Now, he told me, I had invoked those painful memories again by playing a piece of music that he knew to be one of Hitler's favorites.

When I finally identified which of the selections I'd played that afternoon that he was talking about (when I asked him, he insisted, "You know which one I mean!" But I didn't), I had no luck at all in trying to explain to him that that particular piece of music had been in existence long before Hitler had, and it had nothing really to do with Hitler or the Nazi regime. He was not mollified and he continued to be furious with me.

This was on a Sunday afternoon and I was alone in the station. I suggested that if he had any complaints to lodge against me or the music programming of the station, both the station manager and the program director would be in Monday morning. He did call and he talked to both of them, and neither of them were able to satisfy him either. The end result was that we lost a listener. He said he would never again listen to our station because we played "Nazi music."

The piece of music in question was a Beethoven piano sonata.

God knows what he might have done if I'd played the Siegfried Idyll by Richard Wagner or Ein Heldenleben by Richard Strauss. Hitler liked Wagner and Strauss even better that he liked Beethoven.

Because someone perceives an association between two different things, it doesn't necessarily mean that an association of significance between the two actually exists. I'd suggest that rather that worrying about it, you should express your concerns to the priest and see what he has to say.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 07:08 PM

By the way, keep in touch. I'd be interested to hear what he says.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nazi salute in church
From: mg
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 07:22 PM

I honestly do not understand this response. This is a gesture that is not done anywhere else in my lifetime. It has one meaning and only one in the culture I am in and that is Sieg Heil. Maybe other churches do something similar. Maybe in the distant past Catholics did something similar. And it is not how you raise hands in school. We raised them straight in the air and could not prop up our elbows or wave them. There are some sports incidents using this gesture and they are taken to task I believe. I am astounded that after all the years of sensitivity training and political correctness, which I am never accused of, that almost everyone thinks this is nothing. mg