BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 11:57 AM

Nevertheless, pdq, the fact that Limbaugh believes that the health care system in Hawaii is among "the best health care in the world", just goes to show how full of crap people like Limbaugh are when they say that government involvement in the health care system causes health care to become sub-standard. Hawaii has had their system for about 40 years, so if government involvement in their system was going to cause it to become sub-standard, it would have done so a long time ago.

The fact is that Hawaii has some of the best medical statistics in the United States. And it's because of the government's involvement that this is so.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 12:50 PM

Still, treatment for all kinds of ailments are unsurpassed in America, but they are so expensive that only the wealthy can use them effectively. They might eventually get around to treating a poor person--if the proper insurance is in place--but the care often comes to late in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 01:10 PM

Limbaugh is being stupid, as usual. There is a world of difference between the quality of advanced specialized treatments, often based on advanced technology, and the system of accessibility to the public. They are entirely different questions and get conflated because they are both "health care". We have some of the best technology and high-end surgeries in the world, yes. Our system of public availability to general health care is second-rate.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 01:16 PM

That's actually not the case in Hawaii, Riginslinger. Everyone has access to high quality medical care in that state. We would have done well to have used the Hawaiian system as our template. They get high quality of care for much less money there.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 01:41 PM

Universal (government-run) health care will work best when there is a...

       a reasonable-sized population (Hawaii has about 1.3 million people)

       there is a finite population (Hawaii does not have a neighbor that sends in its people)

       everybody contributes in some manner

       the entire region has above-average wealth

Hawaii has these qualities. Much of the U.S. does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 01:46 PM

It only takes the will to do it, and it can be done anywhere. That will is lacking at the governmental level in the USA, and that's because the government in the USA is a helpless hostage to corporate lobbyists.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 02:30 PM

pdq, you state those things as if they were facts, but they are not facts. You just made them up (or you copied them from someone who did).

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:34 PM

Digression re Hawai'i-

Hawai'i per capita income- US$39,000 approx., rank 10th
Honolulu Star Bulletin 2008 data.
Hawai'i has the highest per capita tax rate of any state, approx. $2800.
This provides education, health care and social services from the state.

Connecticut has the highest per capita income at $54,000 followed by Mass. at $49,000. The lowest is Mississippi ($29,000), followed by Idaho, South Carolina and Utah.

Hospitals in Hawai'i, including the US Military Services hospital, Triplett, allow their specialists to serve those who require their services.

Hawai'i does receive immigrants, from US Pacific Islands and territories plus mainlanders. Quite a number of US military retirees select Hawai'i because of services available, the pleasant climate, and many people of like background.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:46 PM

Per capita income for the whole country is, $ 46,400, which is higher than that of Hawaii. If we use economy of scale by putting everyone in the country into the same insurance pool, there's no reason why it couldn't work as well nation wide as it does in Hawaii.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:48 PM

It is unconstitutional to force people to but things they don't want.

Yo, PeeDee -

So I don't have to pay for several idiotic wars I don't want?

I don't have to pay with my taxes to buy subsidies to the richest 2% of the American population?

I don't have to pay for various military parephernalia that the military doesn't want, but the RepubliPols do to buy votes in their constituencies??

Good to know! When are you going to start protesting these several violations of the Constitution?

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:54 PM

the entire region has above-average wealth

The United States is the richest country in the world. Far richer than most of the other countries in the world which have universal affordable health pervision.

And I am still waiting for an answer to that question - "What were the Republicans doing all these years while they were in power, if they have any interest whatsoever in health care reform?"

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 04:57 PM

Good points, Greg F.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 05:01 PM

Let's try median houselod income instead.

Top Ten...

1   New Jersey   $70,378

2   Maryland   $69,545

3   Connecticut   $68,595

4   Alaska   $68,460

5   Hawaii   $67,214

6   Massachusetts   $65,401

7   New Hampshire   $63,731

8   Virginia   $61,233

9   California   $61,021

10 Washington   $58,078

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 05:46 PM

The fact is, if everyone in a nation shares the medical costs of the nation in an equal fashion, then everyone can afford it, because most people aren't sick most of the time. That's the way a single payer plan works, and that's socialism.

I pay less than $1,000 a year in Canadian taxes to support a national system like that, and that gives me free medical coverage to visit my family doctor or get treatment in any public hospital or medical facility. I call that one hell of a good deal!

How much private health insurance would I have to pay a year in the USA to get the same services? Hmmm? $10,000 or more?

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 07:24 PM

Median houshold income in the US in 2008 was 50,303. And economy of scale still applies regardless of whether we are discussing per capita or median income.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 07:39 PM

"...there is a finite population (Hawaii does not have a neighbor that sends in its people)..."


               That's a good point, pdq. Oregon tried to start a statewide health care program for poeple who couldn't afford insurance, and people with ailments poured into the state so quickly, it sunk they system. It's on life support now.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 08:06 PM

You obviously can't do it in just ONE state for that very reason. You have to do it simultaneously throughout the entire nation or it won't work.

Imagine if Canada simply opened its borders and provided free medical care to any American who wanted it!!!!!!! Man, we'd rapidly become a minority in our own land as 40 million or so Americans poured across the border...

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 08:07 PM

Are you sure about that, Rig? The Oregan Health Care Plan requires that those who participate must be residents of the state.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 08:39 PM

In Oregon, one must establish a domicile and a predominant physical presence in Oregon for a period of 12 months or more prior to the beginning of the term for which residency is sought.
A residence information affidavit must be filed.
All states have these or similar requirements.

The 'rush across the border' argument, within the states, or to Canada, etc., doesn't hold water.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 10:07 PM

It's working in Hawaii. But the bigger the pool of insured, the better it works and the less expensive it is for everyone, because the risk is then spread out over a much large pool. Bigger equals better when it comes to universal health care.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: GUEST,Bobert, lost somewhere in Georgia
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 08:08 AM

... well, not lost but...

Sorry to be late to this but very little time on motel computers... But...

...hey, Dennis ain't no dummy... He realizes that a vote gainst health care reform in Ohio is just another way of saying to his voters that he would rather be back in Youngstown workin' for Jimmy Trafficant flipping burgers at Jimmy's Big Burger...

Now the big question is this... Is the good in the bill worth it??? Well, time will tell... I donno... There is a lot of stuff in it that is mighty tastey fir the insurnace companies but then there are some regs they ain't gonna like one bit...

My own feeling is that it beats a blank... And I do hope that with it out of the way that Obama can get on with some other stuff that is desperately needed, such as immigration reform and an energy policy that works in the 21st century... I'm also real curious to see what the "deficit commission" that he has set up will come up with??? That will be interetsing to watch...

But like I said, time will tell just how much of the bill, should it pass, will need tweekin' later on...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 08:15 AM

"The 'rush across the border' argument, within the states, or to Canada, etc., doesn't hold water..."

          Of course it does. In fact, it makes it even worse. They move into Oregon to establish residency, and place demands on the welfare and public assistance system to stay alive until they can get on the health care system. It's a double whammy.

          That's why it could work in a place like Hawaii and won't work in a state like Oregon.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 10:15 AM

The 'rush across the border' argument, within the states, or to Canada, etc., doesn't hold water.

Of course it doesn't- but its nothing new. The Right has pisssed and moaned about the same thing with regard to Public Assistance, AFDC, etc.

Same old BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 10:36 AM

"Imagine if Canada simply opened its borders and provided free medical care to any American who wanted it!!!!!!! Man, we'd rapidly become a minority in our own land as 40 million or so Americans poured across the border..."


               You're exactly right, Little Hawk, and when people in the US worry about illegals running over the American border the media calls them racist. Fortunately, they do it so often about so many things the term has pretty much lost any meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 12:14 PM

People will always go somewhere else if they can get a better deal there...or if they think they can.

For instance, Amos goes down to Mexico to get his dental work done, and so do many other Americans. Why? Because they get a way better deal there, that's why. This works out well for both the Mexican dentists and the Americans who go down there. There are a number of forms of medical treatment (both conventional and alternative) in Mexico and various other countries which attract people from the USA and Canada...either because of the price or because it's a form of treatment you can't get in the USA and Canada, because it's been shut out by our medical organizations like the AMA.

Latinos try to get into the USA and Canada mostly to raise their standard of living, sometimes to escape oppressive regimes and other unpleasant conditions.

Similarly, there is a steady flow of Asians and Africans to more prosperous regions in Asia, North America, Europe, and so on.

Every country wants only so much immigration at any given time...enough to provide cheap labour...not so much that it destabilizes the society. Private industry in particular is very desirous of the cheap (and hardworking) labour provided by immigrants, who are usually more motivated to work hard than the domestic population is.

That makes it one hell of a complicated situation, doesn't it, Rig?

Immigration is neither a good thing nor a bad thing in itself...it just depends how much of it you get at any given time, and how it is controlled and regulated.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 02:07 PM

Immigration is only a bad thing when it contributes to human population growth.

            So maybe Amos goes to a Mexican dentist for the purpose of preventing the dentist from coming to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 02:16 PM

LOL!!! No, he does it to save money. Also, of course, there are his illicit liasons with Chinga, but I'm not supposed to talk about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 02:27 PM

Well, I can certainly understand that...

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Genie
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 03:00 PM

Mark, yes, people without insurance can and do get treatment in hospital emergency rooms -sometimes even for things that aren't immediately life-threatening. But that does not mean that the hospitals don't hit them up for a huge bill afterwards.
If you're truly indigent, the hospital may just write it off as "bad debt," but if you have income and assets but don't have health insurance, for whatever reason, if you go to an emergency room you're going to be billed for the ambulance, treatment, hospital stay, etc. that you used. And that bill could be big enough to bankrupt you.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 03:18 PM

No matter, what the executive branch offers, in the way of 'favors'(read: bribes), or joy-rides on air force one, or appointing brothers to judge ships, etc. etc., Congressmen and Senators, were 'elected' to represent their constituents, and vote according to their(constituents) will, not be swayed by corruption. Being as there is a huge tax hike associated with this bill, before it is to take effect, and our 'so called 'representatives' are NOT voting according to the will of the people in the districts, from where they come from, this amounts to taxation WITHOUT representation! Same is true about voting along party lines, both sides of the aisle!!!

I've got a novel suggestion for our 'representatives'...How about doing what you were elected to do?....and quit being traitors!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 03:45 PM

You're forgetting who really got them elected, GfS! ;-) (the lobbyists who provided the money to blanket the media with the message...)

They would be betraying their major corporate funding sources if they obeyed the capricious will of the public, and such a betrayal simply cannot be allowed! (extremely sick humor) Whaddya think this is, a democracy???? A government OF the people???? Get real, buddy, this is America, where you get the best government money can buy.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 06:06 PM

Exactly right, Little Hawk, and that's why we have the insurance bill that we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 06:22 PM

I suppose it's true to say that the existing "health system" in America is an enormous disincentive to people wanting to go and live there, unless they are pretty desperate.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:05 PM

Yes, and they are desperate.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 11:47 PM

GfS, please show some documentation for your assertion about the tax increase.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 10:14 AM

""Our system of public availability to general health care is second-rate.""

Do you really think it's that good Amos?

Compared to what we get in the UK, I would have said lower than fifth rate.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 10:34 AM

It's really an astonishing situation with health care in the USA. Like Dennis Kucinich AND Michael Moore, I am in favor of this wretched bill passing....because it will make some improvements to a very, very bad situation by providing some regulation of the private health insurance industry...

So I hope it passes.

This does not mean people should not be aware what a terribly bad bill it is in most ways, because it forces millions of people to purchase private health insurance, which is simply scandalous. It's a direct attack on the freedom of choice of the general public in that regard. It's almost unbelievable. Although the bill does make some improvements here and there, it is basically a huge financial giveaway to the private health insurance lobby by getting them millions more customers, and it is their lobbying money and propaganda which has brought that about.

This is not an example of a democracy, it's an example of a corrupt financial oligarchy.

What the Republicans want would probably be even worse, because they would, I assume, do absolutely nothing to regulate the health insurance industry.

So what can you do when 2 sets of elected scoundrels serve a great financial oligarchy rather than serving the public who voted for them?

There is one other reason I DO want to see this bill pass. If it doesn't, the strength and viability of Obama's administration will be finished and there will be no further hope of anything useful getting done in the remainder of his term of office.

I think the reasons I've cited above are the probable reasons for Dennis Kucinich to have decided to vote for the bill. It's a case of picking the better of two very poor alternatives...better that this crummy bill should pass than that it should fail to.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: pdq
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 11:31 AM

"...a terribly bad bill it is in most ways, because it forces millions of people to purchase private health insurance, which is simply scandalous." ~ LH

Yes, and completely unconstitutional.

If the Feds can order you to buy an insurance plan and put you in jail if you don't comply, we can no longer count on the Constitution for protecrtion from tyrants. The great experiment in freedom, the United States, is gone, perhaps forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 11:46 AM

Shock, horror -- I find myself in agreement with pdq!?!

As I expressed on another thread, the far right and the far left are finding common ground 180 degrees from the center. What does this mean for US politics?

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 12:57 PM

It means that "Right" and "Left" have nothing to do with it, and are misleading terms which are being used to divide and distract people from what is really occurring, which is a form of tyrrany orchestrated by huge financial entities which have taken over the government through the simplest and most direct form of power on this Earth: the power of money.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:04 PM

I was afraid that's what it meant...

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 02:16 PM

Exactly right, Little Hawk. The financial forces driving this and many other things are not American at all, but are international. They have no concern for the US or the people in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 02:47 PM

Liberty (or should I say "freedom") for an individual (or juridical person) cannot properly include the freedom to oppress. A government can legitimately require its subjects to take steps for their own benefit and there are myriad (or should I say "legion") examples.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM

The Republicans are against anything Obama does mainly because he is a black president.
That's the hard truth. This despite the token Steele. This is why "birthers" exist. Republicans would never run a black candidate for president. Even Alan Keyes.

Their criticism of him as a big-government "socialist" is ludicrous. If anything, Obama
is an old-style Republican the existed before the GOP became radicalized with reactionary hotheads. He is not even as progressive as FDR was and certainly not a trust-buster
like Teddy Roosevelt.

Kucinich is a reasonable man and knows that the pressure on him to retain his seat
depends on this compromise but he has made it clear that he doesn't think this bill
is the best we can do as a country. I agree with him on this.

The only bill that makes sense for this country is a "Single-payer" system like they have
for every other civilized country in the world. In the meantime, the insurance lobby
continues to win the debate until enough Americans are hurting.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:30 PM

"The Republicans are against anything Obama does mainly because he is a black president."

I don't think that's really it, Stringsinger. I think they're against anything he does because he's a Democratic president. ;-) The fact that he's black is merely convenient for them, because it frightens a fair number of people in the Republicans' support base, but the key problem for them isn't that he's black...it's that he's a Democrat! If he (or she) were a white Democrat, they'd be against everything he does just as much as they are against Obama...specially if it were Hillary Clinton who were president. Republicans are rabidly hostile to Hillary Clinton above all others, and she's undeniably white. So is Al Gore, and they detest Al Gore.

Nope, the problem isn't that he's black at all, it's that he's NOT Republican. Now, the fact that he's black helps raise those old insecurities amongst Republicans, of course... ;-) It would also help if he had facial hair like Ahmadinejad or Osama and was butt ugly too, and it would help if he was an avowed atheist, a divorced man, a single man or openly gay...but you can't have everything, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:45 PM

The AMA has endorsed the bill, although with some reservations.
Changes can come in the future.
AARP, which sells insurance to old folks, also endorsed it, but they are an insurance company.
There is no way that health care can be extended without inclusion of the insurance industry.

Passage needed or Obama is through.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:51 PM

Yes, and that's the biggest reason why this thing needs to be passed. It would not be good to have a "lame duck" Obama presidency less than 2 years into a 4 year term.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 05:08 PM

People who don't buy health insurance don't get jailed! They get fined. Good grief!

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 05:19 PM

And then when they don't pay the fine they get jailed.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: pdq
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 05:30 PM

Interview with the President:
Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance?

...President Obama said that penalties are appropriate for people who try to "free ride" the health care system but stopped short of endorsing the threat of jail time for those who refuse to pay a fine for not having insurance.

"What I think is appropriate is that in the same way that everybody has to get auto insurance and if you don't, you're subject to some penalty, that in this situation, if you have the ability to buy insurance, it's affordable and you choose not to do so, forcing you and me and everybody else to subsidize you, you know, there's a thousand dollar hidden tax that families all across America are -- are burdened by because of the fact that people don't have health insurance, you know, there's nothing wrong with a penalty."

Under the House bill those who can afford to buy insurance and don't' pay a fine. If they refuse to pay that fine there's a threat – as with a lot of tax fines – of jail time. The Senate removed that provision in the Senate Finance Committee.

Mr. Obama said penalties have to be high enough for people to not game the system, but it's also important to not be "so punitive" that people who are having a hard time find themselves suddenly worse off, thus why hardship exemptions have been built in the legislation.

"I think the general broad principle is simply that people who are paying for their health insurance aren't subsidizing folks who simply choose not to until they get sick and then suddenly they expect free health insurance.  That's -- that's basic concept of responsibility that I think most Americans abide by," Mr. Obama said, "penalties are appropriate for people who try to free ride the system and force others to pay for their health insurance."

The President said that he didn't think the question over the appropriateness of possible jail time is the "biggest question" the House and Senate are facing right now.

{interview by Jake Tapper, ABC}