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BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel
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Subject: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 18 Jan 07 - 07:08 PM 15 January 2007 Western Democracy's Achilles Heel Western liberal democracy is undoubtedly the best system of government to have evolved from humankind's 5000 year journey of civilization. Western liberal democracy, if measured by the liberty and freedom it provides its individual members, is unequalled. Yet, when it comes to post-modern Western Liberal Democracy, an ugly underbelly has emerged, and that is partisan politics at the expense of national interest. When, that partisanship reaches into the institutions of academia and the news media, then Western Liberal Democracy begins to look pretty fragile. Nothing has exemplified the point more in recent times than the raging debate in the United States over the Iraq Conflict. Daily, whether through blogs, MSM op-ed, MSM news, academia, or political parties, we are subjected to a steady blizzard of rhetoric that is completely barren of historic context and facts, military tactical context and facts, and short term historic context (who said what and when a few months ago). Politicians can literally spout and take positions then reverse them without much political cost. Worse yet, the single most important institution within a democracy for disseminating information, the MSM, suffers from selective amnesia or blindness when duplicity and hypocrisy occur among politicians. The key benefactor in this case is the "progressive" or "liberal" politician, as he is free to make declarations, policy announcements, and the like, then change course a few months later without facing the scrutiny of the media. The Liberal pundit would, of course, hotly dispute this claim. In the end the environment is such, that winning office by simply opposing anything the "other side" proposes becomes the modus operandi. On Iraq and Afghanistan, it puts opposition parties in the position of literally depending on military defeat in order to make political gain. Winning elections becomes more important than winning wars.
Your anonymous posts were deleted from several threads. If you wish to post at Mudcat, fill in the "from" blank with a consistent user name. Thank you. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 07 - 07:23 PM Everything makes sense within its own closed loop of tacit assumptions. But not outside that loop. Your loop of assumptions is a very narrow one. The cause you espouse is not what you think it is at all, and it is the author of its own and a great many other people's misfortunes. You are backing aggressors, thieves, and liars. The fact that some of the people fighting those aggressors are equally bad, as well as being Muslim religious fanatics, does not excuse the aggressors themselves. The people you're backing don't deserve to win. Neither do the Islamic fundamentalists they are fighting. Ordinary people suffering on both sides of the conflict wish you would both just go away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 18 Jan 07 - 07:31 PM You can easily broaden the loop by adding your thoughts of what might happen after the US retreats from Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,petr Date: 18 Jan 07 - 07:33 PM actually pre-supposes that youre in a true democracy. a true democracy would elect a president who got the most votes (period). (and the Americans tried to impose a similar bullshit electoral college vote system in Iraq, until Ayatollah Sistani put a stop to it. One person one vote.) oh bythe way your DECIDER (not even a real word!) has finally become a uniter. Many Republicans have joined up with the Democrats in criticizing his 'new plan'.. that coach fumbled the ball a long time ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 07 - 07:40 PM The same thing that happened after their retreat from Vietnam. They will be gone, which will be a damn good thing...and the country they wrecked for no good reason at all will slowly reshuffle itself into some kind of new status quo (if it doesn't fall apart into 3 pieces), and that will be tough on a lot of people there until it sorts itself out. In Iraq, it will be very tough on the Sunnis in particular, and probably pretty tough on the Kurds and Shiites too, but that is unavoidable at this point. Meanwhile, Americans will continue to speculate as to when the new Playstation or Nintendo comes out, who will win American Idol this time, and other such total BS, and life will go on. You're living in the latter days of the Roman Empire, my friend, you just haven't realized it yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,petr Date: 18 Jan 07 - 07:44 PM well actually some day the US will retreat from IRaq. (back in 03 Bush cowed the Democrats into a stark choice of an overthrow of Saddam Hussein and a state of indefinite peril... now.... its a stark choice of complete withdrawal and subsequent chaos in Iraq (more chaos that is, than Bush's war already created). even though the IRaq Study group actually recommends many policy choices besides a complete military withdrawal in the foreseeable future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,petr Date: 18 Jan 07 - 07:47 PM well I agree LH, although it could be more like the Greeks than the Romans. Athens' flowered after the disastrous Syracuse campaign. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 18 Jan 07 - 07:56 PM I have never fooled with a Playstsion or Nintiendo or watched American Idol. Perhaps you have. You provide a very narrow set of assumptions. Try again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:04 PM Iraq was not a threat to the USA. Iran is not a threat to the USA. It sounds like Dickey believes that Islamic fundamentalists ARE a real threat to the USA and to "democracy". Those were some of the assumptions I was speaking of. Are you aware, Dickey, that every great aggressor empire in history has motivated its people to support its aggression by convincing them that its next choice target of opportunity was a threat to their very way of life? The truth is the exact opposite. The Empire itself is a threat to other people's way of life, everywhere it goes. The Empire, at any given time, is simply that power which is predominant in money and firepower, and which controls the land, air, and sea lanes. That Empire, right now, is the USA. The only time one finds relative stability internationally is when there are 2 or more empires of fairly equal strength facing off in a standoff, and neither one dares to get too far out of line. The possibility of that sort of stability ended when the Soviet Union broke up in '89, and we have seen a more and more dangerous world ever since, because there is now no adequate check and balance out there against the USA's imperial ambitions in the world. But hey, one other possibility of relative stability exists, come to think of it, and that is when one great empire becomes so powerful, so totally dominant, that it basically takes over everything...or almost everything...and no one dares challenge it. Examples: The Pax Romana, and the Pax Brittanica (after the fall of Napoleon until 1914) This is what the leaders of America would like to achieve, a Pax Americana, but they're not going to. It's beyond their capability. China will become the power able to counterbalance and eventually surpass the USA, in all probability. Time is on their side. Do I want that? No. Not particularly. But I see that that is what is most likely to happen in the 21st century. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:05 PM I don't play those games or watch American Idol either. ;-) I was making a comment on society in general. Look around you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,petr Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:13 PM China wont become the next empire either, but it will be a multipower world, with the US, EU, India and Russia, but The Expansion of the EU actually has had a democratizing effect on its members, and discourages aggression - What is the second largest Muslim country after INdonesia. Answer:perhaps surprisingly , India. There are 150million Muslims in India and yet you dont see them participating in any terror network. Because India is (despite some of its problems) a Democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:26 PM India is also a country with deeply traumatic memories of Muslim-Hindu strife in the recent past which led to the violent breakup of the whole country into India and East and West Pakistan and Kashmir, and cost a great many lives. Indians are deeply afraid of religious strife within their community, and with good cause. The Muslims are a minority in India, and they would suffer the most by far from Hindu retaliation if any Muslim acts of terror were committed there. That, in itself, is a strong enough reason for them avoiding triggering such events. And yes, I think you're right that it will be a multipower world. North America/the EU/Russia/India/China So much the better. They may achieve a degree of stability and cooperation through mutual deterrence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:32 PM "Iran is not a threat to the USA." Perhaps you should do some reading here and broaden your knowledge base. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:38 PM I think that anyone who encourages Latin Americans to resist the USA's economic colonization and political domination of their countries, which has been happening for well over a century now, is on exactly the right track, and if Ahmadinejad does so, good for him. I'm not impressed by your link. Like I said, you are under the false impression that you Americans are the guys under attack here. You're not. You are the attackers. Anyone in Latin America or elsewhere who ever attempts to steer an independent course will be vilified by your politicians, demonized by your media, persecuted by the World Bank, and attacked by your CIA-sponsored goons and death squads, and quite possibly invaded by your military. And you will think it's all done in defence of your liberty and freedom. It isn't. It's done for money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:47 PM See, if I was a small country....any small country...I would try to get all the small countries in the world to band together to help protect each other from Imperial domination and aggression by any one huge power such as the USA, Russia, or China. You bet I would. To do so is not to oppose freedom, but to encourage it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Amos Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:50 PM Horrors -- Chavez claims Christ was a socialist. The NOIVE of da guy! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:55 PM Chavez is right. He was a socialist. Anyone with a genuine sense of compassion for all the people in a soceity is likely to eventually become a socialist. But don't tell that to people who've been brought up to equate "socialism" with the devil himself! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:16 PM You're full of shite LH. Do you think totalitarianisim is good? That's where Chavez is headed. Don't read the news whatever you do. It might educate you. Liberals talk about how their civil rights are being trampled on and how great socialisim is but in the end it takes away their civil rights. You have the right to flap your unknowledgeable jaws. What happens in Venezuela or Cuba when someone protests like you do? And before you talk about how great Cuba is, it's a shit hole. They are being supported by Chavez and owe him 800 million last time I heard. Should the US nationalize Citgo? If it's right for Venezeula to nationalize American companys, it should be right for the US to do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:28 PM I would think one could get a more accurate description of democracy's Achilles Heel by engaging in a short visit to The Nation of Aztlan web-site, and scanning the contents there. It seems they've concluded that people from Euorpean heritage in North America have either become infertile, or gay, or--in any event, they've quit having children--and the name of the game for them is to sneak over the border, have children in America so the children become citizens, and they can take over Congress one district at a time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:45 PM "shite"? You must be British. ;-) Well, mate, you are welcome to your opinion. I've been to Cuba and I've been to Mexico and I've been to Trinidad. I prefer the Cuban approach, all things considered. None of those places is nearly as safe as it is in Canada or the UK, but none of them got the favoured historical and social start in the last 200 or 300 years that Canada and the UK got either, and people forget little factors like that. Socialism has nothing to do with it. You can have totalitarianism with or without socialism...either way is simple. You just have a police state, that's all. That is totalitarianism, whether or not it's socialist. You can do it in a capitalist society too, with ease, just as easily as you can do it in a socialist society. You just pay the police well to beat up, torture and kill whoever you want them to. Canada is presently a mixture of capitalism and socialism, and it's certainly not totalitarian. The mixture of the two is what I like best, because you get the best of both worlds. Neither capitalism nor socialism are dirty words to me, but both can be used for good or evil...just like any tool can. Like a gun, for example. I do not compare what happens in any 3rd world countries with what happens in Canada, the UK, France, Denmark, Holland, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Italy, Belgium or other such developed and prosperous places, because people in the 3rd world countries have NEVER had the chance in life that people in the developed countries have had, and such comparisons are simply fatuous. They prove nothing about either socialism or capitalism. They do prove something about deep poverty, entrenched oppression by a tiny elite, and the lack of a strong democratic tradition to build upon. The thing that I object to about the Empire is that it works hand in glove with the tiny elite groups that oppress 3rd world countries. It always has done so. It probably always will, because the rich are naturally the friends of the rich...and that crosses borderlines. They go to the same parties, they deal with the same banks, they know each other well, and they work together for mutual benefit. Such was also true in the Communist world. Socialism and capitalism are equally easy to corrupt. All you need is a few corrupt people at the top. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Slag Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:51 PM LH. You have a bit of a loop problem yerself re Vietnam, to mention just one. For no good reason? There were plenty of reasons and some were actually good. They made sense at the time. You have to look at the "stiz em lieben". The French involvement, the decidely different and virulent form of Communism in the USSR, the, post WWII American mindset, dissemination of US atomic secrets, the Kennedy adminstration and then assination, etc. It all went into the shaping of the American mind, that and much more. Because something doesn't look "right" today doesn't mean it wasn't right for its time. This country and, I imagine, all countries are always screwing the little guy in some way. It's a global pecking order. Remember my post on "When Big Things Move"? It can't be helped. That's the nature of the beast. When "Big" ceases to be advantageous, as in the case of the dinosaurs, it will go away, one way or the other. In the meantime I choose to support my local superpower and encourage it to do what I believe to be doing right things such as promoting individual freedoms, free and open education, access for all, etc., i.e., things I consider to be core values of the US. It makes more sense than setting your jaw and being a contrarian, unless of course, you are trying to make a point. We don't always get it right and not everyone's motives are righteous or noble but the US does afford a high degree of freedom and personal liberty and many smaller countries which enjoy the same owe the same to the protective strength of this superpower. It's not time to man the lifeboats just yet LH. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:55 PM "Nation of Aztlan"??? My goodness! Well, they may be partly onto something...I have chosen to have no children, and 2 of my 3 cousins on one side of the family have had no children either...but it was by choice, not due to infertility. Other cousins of mine have had average about 2 kids per family. As the material security of people goes up, the birthrate tends to go down. This is an observable phenomenon. You don't see many North Americans having large families anymore. When 3rd world populations achieve a higher standard of living, they too will start having smaller families. They will become "us". How ironical. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 07 - 10:10 PM Yes, Slag, it did look different at the time, and I understand how it looked, but the French should not even have been in Vietnam anymore after '45. Vietnam should have been given its independence as soon as the Japanese left. They had fought for it and they deserved it. If Vietnam had been given independence in 1945 as the single nation it already was, there would have been no subsequent war there at all. That war was essentially a fight for national sovereignty against colonial rule, but that was not recognized by the USA. The USA chose to side itself with a Catholic Vietnamese minority in Saigon, a minority which had traditionally tended to work with the French colonial administration. That was an idea doomed to failure. The country is mostly Buddhist, and the Catholics were viewed as collaborators with the colonial regime. The USA-supported government was seen as an extension of the same colonialism as had existed under the French. It then became a civil war to reunite the country and eject the foreign presence. I appreciate our freedoms as much as you do, Slag, but I realize that they are the inevitable result of past tradition and circumstance in the places we live in. They go back not just to your Constitution (or mine), they go all the way back to the Magna Carta. We are lucky. We got born into prosperous societies with a democratic tradition already strong and functioning. Cubans, Trinidadians, Mexicans, Guatemalans, Iranians, Iraqis, Russians, Vietnamese, Afghans, Africans, most Asians...they're not so lucky as we were. And I don't think what we're doing in our foreign wars is helping them much at all. I think we're making it worse. That's why I'm in opposition to big power policy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Teribus Date: 18 Jan 07 - 10:11 PM Little Hawk - 18 Jan 07 - 08:04 PM "Iraq WAS not a threat to the USA. Iran IS NOT a threat to the USA." Definitive staements there Little Hawk - Now please, prove proof positive, that they are correct so that we can all sleep safe-a-bed at night. I am absolutely dying to hear the reasoning behind your thinking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 07 - 10:22 PM Maybe tomorrow... (grin) I'm gonna take a rest now. But quite seriously, there is no way I will ever prove anything to someone on this forum who is firmly wedded to the opposite opinion about something. We will both simply state our opinions, quote this or that source, remain convinced of what we believe, and life will go on. And I know that. That's the way people are. It's not my job to convert you to my way of thinking, it's just my job to express myself as best I can, same as you or anyone else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 18 Jan 07 - 10:46 PM Yes, they probably will become us, once they've taken over. In the interim, they're taking their marching orders from the Roman Catholic Church, which is trying to expand its contsituency. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Slag Date: 18 Jan 07 - 11:05 PM True LH. True Teribus. True Riginslinger. 20-20 hindsight is a great thing to possess. History tends to eventually reveal the mistakes of the past in a way that confirms our stance in the present. With Teribus, I am damned leary of Iran, regarless of their reasoning or purportments (it that is a word) and an unstable Iraq is no reason to drag out the party hats either. We may not be the most righteous nation but it's the only one I've got and I know how predjudicially much of the world feels about my citizenship. When you are in the fight, you've got to win the fight first. Then you can be magnanamous if you want. Otherwise, you're dead. And yes the RCC is doing its deadlevel best to evangelize and expand its constituency as are the JWs, the Mormons, the Baptists, the Pentecostals. I don't think the Zen Bhuddishts or the Hinnayanists are too big on evangelism but the Mahayannists have a big raft mentallity. All is Atman, all is Bhramin. We all promote our own reality and hope to make the world a more real place for ourselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: michaelr Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:31 AM I finally guessed that "MSM" probably stands for "Mushy socialist morons", or is it "Marx's stentorious multitudes"? Or perhaps "Max's stupid Mudcat"? It appears that we have another right-wing agitator in our midst. What do you want to bet that Guest, Dickey, after getting appropriate responses from Mudcat's eloquent liberals, will begin using personal attacks and virulent invective and ultimately self-destruct in an orgy of curse words? Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: kendall Date: 19 Jan 07 - 09:01 AM I was in Cuba before the revolution. THAT'S when it was a real shit hole! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Jan 07 - 10:27 AM My comments were not meant to be a slam upon our Latino brethren, Slag, but I'll happily offer it up as a slam upon the Roman Catholic Church and be proud of it. And I agree, all those other superstitions you mention are not better. The world would be a better place if everybody would just bring themselves to deal with reality, I say. But getting back to Latinos, if fewer Mexicans had left home, Lopez Orbador might very well have won the election by margins large enough that even the multi-national corporate shills wouldn't have been able to fudge the numbers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:44 AM But I think that Canada is great too, Guest! Even greater, in fact. That's why I stay in Canada. ;-) Regarding Cuba, I only say that it has been much better off under Castro than it would have been had it remained under Batista! And that's bloody obvious if you know what it was like under Batista. The USA would never have rescued the Cubans from Batista in a million years, because he played ball with all the rich American Mafiosos and industrialists, and that was the problem in a nutshell. Castro didn't play ball with the rich Americans. That's always the problem in Latin America...the most corrupt people in all those countries are hand in glove with the richest and most corrupt people in the USA, and one hand washes the other...while ordinary people suffer. That is not the fault of ordinary Americans. They didn't ask for it, and they didn't make it happen. It does not represent their dreams or their aspirations, and it is against their ideals of liberty and freedom. It's a betrayal of American ideals. Did you know that Castro greatly admired George Washington? Not surprising, really. They stood for essentially the same values. They both took on a great empire and won. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Jan 07 - 12:12 PM The huge difference between Castro, and now it looks like Hugo Chavez is, Washington served two terms and walked away from it. It must take a lot of balls to walk away from power that way; hardly anyone ever does it. And by the way, even though Castro refused to play ball with the rich Americans, he did play ball for the Washington Senators. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,M.Ted Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:20 PM Far be it from me to sidetrack this rehash of the ongoing MC political thrash, but I have a couple of comments on the original post, which was, in fact, lifted from a blog--Dickey, you should have included the poster's name--it is the least you can do when cut-and-pasting-- At any rate, the piece starts out with the idea that Democracy is headed down the tubes because, for some reason, politicians are putting political interests over national interest, and the major media are not giving a true picture of the realities of whatever--Since when is this new? This is the way things have always been--that's why they call it business as usual--the miracle of democracy is that it seems to carry on, nonetheless-- Then there is this: "For example, who openly acknowledges that a military strategy takes months or even years to unfold and to bear fruit or failure. Once a strategy is launched, it must run its course for some time before it can be evaluated" Anyone who has studied military strategy (or fought) knows that good military strategy pays off pretty quicky--it's the bad strategy that drags on for months and years-- And then there's this football analogy--"Imagine if you will a football coach who enters a game with a "game plan". For the first quarter his team holds the edge, but then in the second he discovers that the opponent is besting his plan by changing tactics. The coach then adapts his strategy to counter punch, and to regain the momentum. Now imagine that the crowd and journalists begin to crow and condemn the coach for "changing course" or for offering a "failed strategy" in the first place. Worse yet, some call him a fake for being optimistic about his original plan. Consider the ridiculousness of this situation; yet, that is precisely the reality we face in the West where the Iraq and Afghan conflicts have become politicized." That's pretty much happens--they even have a name for it, "Monday Morning Quarterbacking"-- Then there's this: "Who would've thought several years ago that the main function of USA troops in Iraq would've been to protect civilians?" The answer being, nearly everyone--The key criticism of the "Topple Saddam" push was that it would destroyed the government, and we, by default, would be forced to stay there til there was a stable, new government--which will happen, as the Arabs say, "InshAllah", when God wills it-- Finally there's this: "Yet, judging by the vapidity within the Western media and the shortsightedness of our adversarial political climate, I'd put high odds on the Islamic Fascists. They've got the will, they play by no rules while we must play by often ridiculous ones, and their religion gives them unity of purpose, something completely lacking in the Post-modern West." No one who knows anything about the Islamic world has ever accused the Muslims of having unity of purpose--a cursory study of their history will show that, even after the Sword of Islam conquered, it invariably failed to maintain it's dominions. Don't believe me? Consider this--the largest, and strongest institution in the Ottoman Empire was the Byzantine Church-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:03 PM So, we're back to churches again. And that seems to be Democray's Achilles Heel. What do we need to do to save it, throw out the deacons, of course. Modern day Turkey doesn't seem to take its direction from the Byzantine Church. We need to figure out how they got rid of theirs, and we can turn those same principles on the right-wing-religious-wakkos who are in control of the executive branch of our own government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:04 PM " the single most important institution within a democracy for disseminating information, the MSM," What's "the MSM" anyway? I asked Google, but the page of suggested links doesn't seem too informative. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:22 PM "It must take a lot of balls to walk away from power that way; hardly anyone ever does it." Damn right! One other who did it was Emiliano Zapata, the famous Mexican revolutionary leader from Morelos, Mexico. He walked away from being president of Mexico, because he discovered that the government apparatus around him was so corrupt that he could not get them to do much of anything for the general public as he wished them to. He was killed not too long after that by a trap set by Federal soldiers. Another was Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua. He peacefully submitted to the results of a democratic election, left office, and was still campaigning for the Sandinistas, last I heard. Another was Mikhail Gorbachev, who peacefully dismantled and walked away from the Soviet power structure. Tremendous guts and honesty in the case of all three of them, I'd say, just like in the case of George Washington. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:25 PM Okay, I looked it up. It's Methyl Sulfonyl Methane. There's even a Wikipedia entry for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Bill D Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:43 PM In the interests of accuracy,Gorbachev was quick-marched out of the Soviet power structure! He was held under effective house arrest at his Dascha, and TOLD that he would resign. He did....thus, he is still alive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:28 PM And as far as Daniel Ortega, he's just been re-elected to the presidency of Nicaragua. Ronald Reagan must be turning over in his grave; that is, if he can remember, and... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,M.Ted Date: 20 Jan 07 - 12:10 AM The Turks got rid of the Byzantine Church, Riginslinger, by forcibly expelling the Greeks--about 2 million of them, in and around 1923--this was the first "population exhange" of this century, communities were destroyed, families dispersed, and widespread horrors of various sorts were perpetrated. all in the process of casting adrift a people who had been transfixed for a millenium or more-- I sincerely hope that you don't advocate implementing that sort of action against people who hold religious beliefs different from your own-- McGrath--MSM is dismissive shorthand for "Mainstream Media"-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: katlaughing Date: 20 Jan 07 - 12:23 AM Not just the RCC: Church Is the Second-Fastest Growing Religion in the United States 18 July 2006 SALT LAKE CITY — The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the second-fastest growing church in the United States, according to the 2006 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches, published by the National Council of Churches. The Church reached 12,560,869 members worldwide at the end of 2005, with 5,690,672 in the United States. The countries with the highest membership are: * United States — 5,691,000* * Mexico — 1,044,000 * Brazil — 929,000 * Philippines — 553,000 * Chile — 539,000 * Peru — 416,000 * Argentina — 348,000 * Guatemala — 201,000 * Canada — 172,000 * Ecuador — 171,000 Anyone who really wants to know what it is like in Venezuela for people who actually live there, I would urge you to visit The Devil's Excrement. Observations focused on the problems of an underdeveloped country, Venezuela, with some serendipity about the world (orchids, techs, science, investments, politics) at large. A famous Venezuelan, Juan Pablo Perez Alfonzo, referred to oil as the devil's excrement. For countries, easy wealth appears indeed to be the sure path to failure. Venezuela might be a clear example of that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Jan 07 - 09:08 AM In the interests of saving the planet,Guest,M.Ted, we need to figure out a way of straightening out people with religious beliefs somehow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Jan 07 - 09:56 AM Why do I think this tired topic has been done to death long since? Once more with feeling: there is nothing wrong with religion per se. Much good has been done in the name of religion. And religion has been often abused--as has nationalism, socialism,--"National Socialism", anybody?-- etc. For those who insist on designating religion as the source of all evil--consider Stalin, Hitler, and Mao--between them, responsible for more deaths than any other people in history. Pray tell, in each case exactly which religion was being abused? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Jan 07 - 11:24 AM You should not have put Hitler in that list, Ron! (smile) The Nazis pandered to religion on every available occasion, got on particularly well with the Catholic church, invoked God as their guide, and ensured that every German soldier wore a belt buckle on which was inscribed the slogan "Gott Mitt Uns" ("God is with us"). Why people persist in depicting the Nazis as a "godless" cult is really beyond me...but you hear it all the time. Nonetheless, other than that, I agree with your point above about religion 100%. There is nothing wrong with it per se, and it is as much capable of being used for good as for evil. And here's another perfect candidate for your religion-free oppressors and killers: Pol Pot and the Khymer Rouge, who killed a larger percentage of their own population than any other movement I have ever heard of, all in the name of objectist dialectic and materially-based logic, as they saw it. They were totally against religion. Bill - You're quite right about Gorbachev's arrest, and I know about that. What I meant was that he freely broke down the rigid, authoritarian structures of the Soviet Union and allowed its diverse peoples to freely determine their own destinies, rather than using the traditional Russian oppressive force, violence, and power to keep the lid on. I regard that as having been a very courageous stepping away from centralized power on his part. Ortega's back? Great. Glad to hear it. ;-) Nice to see democracy actually functioning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Crazyhorse Date: 20 Jan 07 - 11:26 AM RD This topic won't be done until we're all free of this supernatural nonsense. If you want to believe in the supernatural fine but keep it to yourself. All the religions are busy recruiting, abusing children (brainwashing)as they do it; all, when they have the chance of power, abuse it. I can't prove there is no god, so I suppose I have to be agnostic but I certainly wouldn't want anything to do with the christian god who appears to be a sadistic, blood thirsty barbarian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Jan 07 - 12:35 PM No, Little Hawk. "Gott mit uns" was from World War I. Hitler only got along with the Catholic Church as long as they did not oppose him. Some did. Many Protestants also opposed him--some paid with their lives. Religion was not a big selling point for Hitler--except as a handy club to bash "Godless Communism". Hitler's religion, as far as it goes, was clearly German nationalism--specifically the need to avenge the disgrace of World War I's ending--and the need to find a scapegoat for it--Dolchstosslegende. Any argument there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Jan 07 - 12:44 PM Crazyhorse-- Believe what you want to. I don't consider myself religious in the least--belong to no church that I attend even once a year. Just interested in fairness--and against smearing entire groups who have not earned it--such as religious people, some of whom are on this forum. So sorry if it bothers you. There are plenty of religious people who opposed and oppose Bush's abuse of religion--and virtually everything he stands for--- including his criminally stupid Iraq war, which he justifies partly on religious grounds----to pick a purely theoretical example. And when it comes to intolerance--a major cause of the problems of the world--you may want to look in the mirror. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Jan 07 - 12:45 PM But is seems as though, just like who ever was running Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, Hitler saw a way to use the "useful idiot" aspect of people who went to church. Wasn't one of his programs centered around an attempt to resurrect Norse Mythology in an effort to form a kind of "Germanic Religion," that would allow him to control--or more completely control--more people? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Jan 07 - 01:04 PM ABUSE of religion. QED. As I said, anything can be abused. Argument? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Bee Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:33 PM Why do people who appear to have no interest in music come to a music forum and post their political views? Are these people paid to do this? Guest Dickey, are you at all interested in folk music, or blues, or bluegrass? If not, why aren't you posting on a political board? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM Bee-- People just like to stir the pot--just like to upset others. But Joe is onto "Guest Dickey". We'll see what happens now. And as far as I'm concerned anybody can comment on a topic--as long as they pick a handle--and stay with it. And anybody who opposes my view just forces me to hone my logic. All to the good. We're always free to ignore a posting--or to ask the poster what kind of music they like--which you've done. And some Guests, for some reason, don't like that question. Wonder why. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 20 Jan 07 - 03:25 PM Bee, It also seems self evident, wouldn't you agree?, that the existence of a separate BS section on a music oriented board, tends to the likelihood that non music topics are intended to be discussed. As for guest Dickey, I see only the usual desperate attempt of the republican fanatic to manufacture, in the absence of solid facts, a justification for the criminal behaviour of those who are unfortunately, currently (hopefully temporarily) in control of the US of A. "[You're full of shite LH. Do you think totalitarianisim is good? That's where Chavez is headed. Don't read the news whatever you do. It might educate you.]" Sorry Dickey, but when you have been here for more than a few days, you will realise that LH is a well educated, well read, and intelligent member of this forum, and generally well respected too. At least he can spell totalitarianism, as well as recognise, like myself, that the country currently most rapidly proceeding in that direction is in fact the republican led US of A. Geedubya has obviously chosen his role models rather poorly, as evidenced by many policies introduced by his government. Adolf Hitler- 1. Scared the Germans into espousing Nazism by using the Jews as bogeymen for them to hate and fear. 2. Justified the invasion of sovereign neighbour states by horror stories of ill treatment of Germans living in those states. 3. Removed the civil rights, first of the Jews, then of all citizens under the guise of National Security. 4. Carried out the invasions of those neighbour states, thereby precipitating a world conflict. Substitute Muslim for Jew, and WMDs for foreign bullying, Dickey! Remind you of anyone we know? George ("I've started, so I'll finish") Bush is infinitely more dangerous to the world than the Muslim leaders. After all, we know HE HAS WMDs. Hmmm! Maybe the rest of the world should join forces and do something about him. What d'ye think? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Jan 07 - 03:37 PM I would agree, Ron Davies, anything can be abused. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Bee Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:03 PM Don: yes, I expect politics and all sort of things to be discussed on the BS section - by the same people who post in the music section, or at least some of them and their friends. And of course, people drop into message boards to 'stir the pot' all the time, I'm well aware. However, to randomly show up on what is obviously a music forum, when there are scads of bigger forums dedicated to political discussion and start spouting cut and paste political views suggests the kind of dedication that comes with being paid to do so. It is a fact that there are people paid to post all sorts of things: praise of various products, for example, and yes, people are paid to elicit political responses in order to generate statistical and other kinds of information. Thus my question to Mr./Ms. Dickey as to whether they had an interest in music, because I am wondering, and would like to know, whether this is a person who came for the music and stayed to talk politics, or a person who's paid to be here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:11 PM But what point would there be to paying Dickey? What sentient being would stand any chance of being influenced by his canned tripe? (smells pretty bad, too) If you're going to pay somebody, surely you can do better than Dickey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Bee Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:19 PM I believe the pay is usually quite small, Ron. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:30 PM Bee- Well, I suppose you get what you pay for. LH-- Sorry, I shouldn't have said "No" in discussing Hitler and religion. I should have said "I disagree". I'm just too used to debating Teribus, Doug R and other giant intellects of that sort--and being rather direct with them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: akenaton Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:45 PM Crazyhorse....Is that you Shakey? My you've fairly changed your tune! Pleased to see that at last we've something to agree about..Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,M.Ted Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:08 PM I don't see that there is anything offense about having an unpopular opinion--I think it is unfortunate when you can't really defend it--in a certain way, making a poorly reasoned, badly explained, and obviously uniformed defense of one side of an issue really makes a point for the other side--hmmm... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Crazyhorse Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:15 PM RD, I'm pleased for you that you're not religious but I will argue against it as much as I'm able. If the supernaturalists believe that their god is so powerful why do they need special laws to protect it. By the way I had a pop at religion not the believers. I have no problem looking in the mirror, I am tolerant, I just don't tolerate intolerance which is what the "book" religions all preach. Ake What makes you think I'm shakey, whoever that is, apart from the, fairly obscure, musical connection. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 20 Jan 07 - 10:14 PM RD: Care to elaborate on this? From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM Bee-- People just like to stir the pot--just like to upset others. But Joe is onto "Guest Dickey". We'll see what happens now. Dear Joe: The reason I cut and paste things like this in their entirety is because the pages frequently go away and leave a dead link. Also it was a bit longer than my screen but my screen is 1280 x 1024 and I have my fonts set a little larger. I was under the assumption that your screen is a quite a bit larger. I started a thread named My take on Liberals with a cut and paste that filled my screen but it was still closed with no explanation. It contained no personal attacks. I made a post asking that it be restored and asking why it was closed and that post was deleted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:23 AM Sorry, Dickey. One screen is the limit on non-music copy-pastes. Most of the non-music discussions are of an ephemeral nature - they're "hot topics" today, but won't be in a week. Most likely, your link will last a week. If the article is too long, post a summary in your own words or an excerpt, plus a link. This is a forum for people to express their own opinions, not for simply copy-pasting information available elsewhere on the Internet. You may use copied information, but most of what you post should be your own. And if you participate in discussions here, we expect you to use a consistent user name, every time you post. I deleted a good number of messages that you posted anonymously. I reopened the "Liberals" thread. -Joe Offer |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:41 AM Ron, well, I semi-agree with you about the Nazis (in regards to religion) and I semi-don't. ;-) Hitler and the Nazis were very mystical, and that in itself is a form of religion. Hitler's mysticism was an odd blend of old Nordic mythical glories, mixed with Christianity, mixed with bizarre racial theories about "Aryans" and the Nordic people. Hitler wrote about Jesus in "Mein Kampf" and he said that Jesus was not the way people saw him at all, but that he was "a fighter". He meant that Jesus was one who would fight actively and use force to oppose what Hitler saw as "the bad people" and the bad forces in society. In invoking Jesus in that way, he was saying that Jesus was his ally and the ally of the Nazi movement! I suppose his conclusion that Jesus was such a fighter was based upon passages such as those concerning him driving the moneylenders out of the temple, and some of the more dramatic stuff in Revelations, most likely. Like many other people, Hitler must have read the Bible quite selectively, I would figure, cherry-picking out of it whatever suited him and conveniently overlooking the rest. Of course some church people opposed the Nazis (and were harshly dealt with for it) while others cooperated fully with the Nazi New Order, and still others kept their heads low and their mouths shut. Yes, the "Gott Mitt Uns" slogan of the German army may have predated Naziism, but it certainly was taken on seamlessly by the Nazi armed forces, regardless, so I would say that they took considerable advantage of conventional religion in motivating their troops. This was specially true on the Eastern Front where German troops were frequently reminded that they were fighting "godless Communism", and you had alluded to that yourself. (The SS, however, had a different slogan: I believe it was "My Blood is My Honor".) I regard the Nazis not as a non-religious group at all, but as an intensely mystical and religious group...although what they were really doing was building a brand new religion: one that elevated the German people to the status of "God's Chosen" (the Master Race) and Hitler to the status of God's Instrument on Earth, so to speak. They were divinizing "the Leader". It was a new and radical form of religion, in my opinion. Nazis were most certainly NOT instructed to deny the existence of God, they were under the impression that God was quite wholeheartedly in favor of what they were doing. I think that a lot of people simply label the Nazis as "godless", because they figure that anyone who is doing really such evil things as that must be godless... ;-) (in their opinion) It's not careful thought to arrive at that conclusion, it's just a snap judgement. But how about Pol Pot? A perfect example of your original point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Jan 07 - 09:02 AM So that mixes a little Isaac Newton into the mix. The reason Hilter went after the Jews with such vigor is because there was no way two groups of "god's chosen people" could occupy the same planet at the same time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:30 AM No, as usual, you've missed the point. Hitler abused religion--as I said. Religion itself is not to blame, much as you are determined to do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: John Hardly Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:35 AM If Western Democracy has an "Achille's Heel" it is that its freedom is only as good as its education. ...and that it has the capacity to vote for its own failure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:36 AM Thanx Joe |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Jeri Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:47 AM Dickey, when the copy/paste limits were first developed, there was a prohibition on pasting stuff - in effect, republishing it - and not saying anything of your own. Apparently, that's changed, but I think we should be a discussion forum, not a place to slap up posters. Of course, it once was a folk music forum, too, so simply re-posting news may be perfectly acceptable these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Stu Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:47 AM The Achillies Heel of western democracy is capitalism. In fact, in the rhetoric of modern politics the two words are interchangeable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:53 AM I'd disagree with you too, Stigweard. Is the West more advanced than the rest of the world? Is it capitalist? Why is there no connection? Why is China becoming more capitalist? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:14 PM I agree with JH, education is essential to keep democracy working. That would mean to me, teaching things that are actually real and provable. As far as capitalism is concerned, it seemed to work pretty well until whoever was running Ronald Reagan came up with the concept of a "free market economy," which has since developed into a monopolistic shell game. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:52 PM Yes indeedy, China is becoming more Capitalistic by the minute and therefore more prosperous and their standard of living is improving. In the far future, after the paralysis of Political Correctness sets in, they will at the mercy of other, previously third world countrys, which have come of age. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jan 07 - 01:41 PM Ron, perhaps I did miss your point, but if so, you are likewise missing mine. ;-) I agree with you 100% when you say: "Hitler abused religion--as I said. Religion itself is not to blame" Exactly. That's what I'm saying! Religion itself is never to blame for the wrongful things done in its name. It is people who abuse religion who are to blame for those wrongful things. Anyway my original point that started off our (yours and my) discussion was simply this: that you can hold up Stalin and Mao as leaders of atheistic movements which totally denied religion on principle and killed a lot of people while so doing...but you can't do that with Hitler or the Nazis, because they were not, by definition, an atheistic movement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:06 PM Let me see if I can come up with some Achilles Heels for western "democracy"... Okay... 1. All decisions are normally made on the basis of money rather than on the basis of achieving the overall common good (of people, the environment, animal species, etc.) THAT is the number 1 problem in the world right now. That is the greatest threat to all life as we know it. 2. the electoral sytem doesn't work properly anymore, because huge monied interests are controlling the political parties. This results in political parties that don't really represent the public anymore, and the public is helpless to do anything about it. 3. the main avenues of media information (TV, radio and print) are controlled by a few huge centralized monied interests as well, who have agreed pretty much on setting common objectives (profit and control). This effectively results in a public that is ill-informed and mainly hears a centralized pre-digested propaganda line rather than a genuinely open debate on important issues. 4. (a) the modern medical industry is geared more toward selling drugs and making money than toward finding cures and teaching people how to live a healthier lifestyle. 4. (b) the modern food industry is geared toward selling genetically engineered, processed, and chemically altered food that looks good and has a long shelf life! That same food has about 1/5 of the nutritional content per volume that food used to have only a few decades ago. So we are eating like pigs, but not getting proper nutrition from the food while we do it. This results in a North American population that is suffering record levels of overweight, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and other deadly illnesses. 5. the drug laws are geared mainly toward punishing people and regulating supply rather than toward helping cure addiction, reducing poverty, and educating people so they will be less inclined to get addicted in the first place. 6. In communities...we plan our communities more as if we were trying to make CARS happy than people! This is unwise. ;-) Again, it has to do with profit. (and sheer laziness) 7. We value money more than real things. (Money is a made-up thing that everyone has agreed to pretend is real, and now everyone is enslaved by it.) 8. We have created a military-industrial system that needs to keep producing armaments in order to perpetuate itself and employ all the people who are in it. We cannot justify building all those armamaments unless we have continual conflict or threat of conflict in the world. This means we have to find new enemies every time an old one ceases to be viable. And that, in a nutshell, is where this ridiculous war with the Muslims came from. It had to be arranged to fill up the vacuum that was left when the Cold War ended! Remember the "Peace Dividend" that we were all supposed to enjoy after the collapse of the Soviet Union? Ha! It never happened. You know why? It would have mostly put the military-industrial complex out of business....and that simply could not be allowed to happen, because those guys are NOT going to yield their control of this society. A new enemy will ALWAYS be found...or invented. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:17 PM The one that you missed is illegal immigration. People coming from the outside to remake the democracy in their image. Or at least in the image of the folks who are controlling them, and who don't want you to know who they are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:22 PM Yeah, for sure. There are probably several others that I missed too. It's a complex situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:24 PM That's a pretty special world you live in. This one is a little confusing though: "We value money more than real things" What do "We" do with this money that "We" value so much? Do we stuff our mattress with it and sleep good or do we spend it on real things? Fact is "We", which does not include me, have spent the money in advance for real things and are in the process of making the money to pay for them. I think the real problem is "We" which again does not include me, want more and more real things which results in an cycle of earning and spending. Fortunately I was never in that loop. I believe in working toward what you really want, not just attaining it first and then struggling to pay for it while discovering you need more. You are welcome to the rest of your sentiments and I respect them but it seems to me you would be happier as a Tibetan Monk sitting and meditating all day and chanting OHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ;-> |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:32 PM Those monks you speak of don't chant "OMMMMM" all day. They do so for short periods, maybe 15 minutes, twice a day. The rest of the time they work harder than most North Americans, breathe more effectively, think more creatively, exercise their bodies more effectively, and accomplish a great deal more on a personal level. But, hey, thanks for the compliment! ;-) My point about money is that it's merely a tool. It can be a very useful tool (as a means of exchange of goods and services), and I enjoy using it just like you do, but when it becomes the final arbiter of every vital decision then some very bad decisions end up being made. I'm saying that money itself (rather than what you can DO with the money) has become too dominating a factor in our collective decision-making process. And that's resulting in some very bad collective decisions. Would you agree? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Jan 07 - 10:16 PM I don't know about how hard all these monks work. I mean, look at a place like Tibet, nothing ever seems to happen there. The problem with money, it seems to me, comes about when a few people have gobs of it, and most people have hardly any. Which is where we seem to have been headed for the last several years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:42 AM I think the money involved in election campaigns is corrupting the election process and the functioning of government. George Soros would probably know a lot about it. Talking about some people having hardly any money and some people having gobs, I have seen this happen in familys. Like 3 brothers, the oldest and youngest of which are well off and the middle brother is always broke and begging the other two to "help him out" Any money given to him is soon pissed away and he needs more. The same upbringing, same parents, same everything. In fact, the father built three equal houses for them all free and clear. The middle brother sold his and pissed the money away. Then I have seen immigrants come here legally and live in a school bus grafted on the back of their liquor store and suddenly they have a nice house and they are driving Mercedii. Can you explain that in your rich get richer / poor get poorer theory? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:23 AM It isn't a theory, statistics will demonstrate. As far as immigrants running a liquor store, pretty much everyone I've come in contact with who run liqour stores make money. And if the middle brother is too intelligent to put up with the day to day bullshit of making money, the younger and the older will probably be better off--at least financially. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:46 PM Yeah that's it. Poor people are too smart to make money and all liqour store owners are rich. As soon as a legal immigrant steps on shore they are given a liquor store to run and that makes them rich. Got it. And the politicians that pander to the poor people and tell them they will give them what ever they need if they vote for them and thereby taking away any incentive for self improvement are pissing in the wind. Now I understand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: bubblyrat Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:08 PM The question we always ask in Britain is this----Given that most of the Free World"s crude oil supplies comes from,or passes through, the Middle East,can Americans honestly say that they would STILL have gone into Iraq had that country posed any threat to,say,the Free World"s supply of chocolate ??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: dianavan Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:13 PM Dickey - Statistics will tell you that a child born to a certain class will probably die in that same class. There may be some upward mobility but its usually through marriage. Of course there are exceptions but its not the general rule. btw - Politicians have very little to do with incentive. Parental expectations are far more powerful. Politicians can, however, remove road blocks and ease the conditions of poverty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:18 PM "I think the money involved in election campaigns is corrupting the election process and the functioning of government." And you are so right! See, we actually agree about a lot of things, Dickey, despite the fact that I'm not a "conservative". I think these labels, "liberal" and "conservative", at least as they are being used in the USA these days, are leading people badly astray and creating a useless controversy. It's true that some people are irresponsible and will squander any amount of money if given the chance, while others are frugal and hard-working and will do well if given the chance. That, again, is clear to both "liberals" and "conservatives" most of the time. I think that people's upbringing when they are children is vital to shaping their tendencies to use money wisely or foolishly...but perhaps in some cases it's an innate tendency of some kind that's in the person regardless. Immigrants from poor countries tend to work a lot harder because they had to deal more with hard realities while they were growing up and they're not so spoiled as North Americans. They are prepared to suffer in order to get ahead. People who are not prepared to suffer don't accomplish much. The same is true of someone learning to play a musical instrument. It takes hard work to get really good at it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: pdq Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:32 PM bubblyrat, The situation is Iraq is complicated. The problem with Hussein is that he used the enormous oil revenue to buy arms, including chemical and biological weapons. He waged war, killed his own countrymen, supported terrorism against Israel, and was an all-around piece of crap. The US had to stop him because of what he did with the oil-gererated billions, not because Iraq had oil. Not exactly the same thing. If Iraq were a dry desert with no oil, there would still be a few warlords trying to kill other warlords with knives and cheap rifles. Not a pleasant place to live, but not a real threat to the rest of the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:57 PM "Parental expectations are far more powerful." AHA! you have hit the nail on the head. Now how do the rich keep the parents of the poor from having high expectations for their children? And if Politicians can remove roadblocks and relieve the situation, why haven't they done so? Listen to Bill Cosby. He was so poor he didn't even know how poor he was. What roadblocks were in his way? Who held him back and took all his opportunities away? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: dianavan Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:33 PM There are always exceptions to the rule. I am one of them but like Littlehawk said it takes alot of hard work. I think sacrifice would be a better word than suffering but... The fact that I was able to better myself was a result of student loans (provided by the govt.)and sacrificing a good portion of my life to not much more than study. I did not have the support or encouragement of my parents. Sometimes I think my children suffered but they say they didn't even realize that they were poor, let alone neglected. Once you have your degree, you have to face a bunch of gatekeepers. These are the people who do not care about your education or experience and will give the job to a 'well-connected' relative of a friend of a friend before even considering a stranger, let alone a minority or an immigrant. Nepotism is a very big obstacle to success. It can be overcome but it takes a great deal of stamina and persistence. The gov. can provide incentives by providing adequate housing, medical and dental and education. The key word is not equality but "equal opportunity". The government should insure that all citizens have access to educational opportunities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:42 PM LH: I think the main diferentiation between a Liberal and a Conservative is that A liberal thinks government should do everything people won't do for themselves. A conservative thinks people should be in charge of their own life and bear the responsiblities of their actions. The problem enters when other people seek to prey on people who are not wise enough to keep from being preyed upon. Then the system of lawyers, courts, lobbyists and politicans selling out their morals to be elected, allow this to continue. I think the solution lies in education people up to the level that they can take care of themselves. Where they can resist the miracle diet pills, the get rich quick adds, the internet and phone fraud, the credit card traps and the appeals to buy the latest gizmo. Something most parents used to do but too few do today. I often tell my wife, a teacher, that schools should put personal finance, parenting and such things of a practical nature right in there with english, math, science etc. You can look right in the schools and see who will succeed and who will not by looking at their grades. Some of the poorest are encouraged by their parents, disciplined and do great. Others of the middle class are not encouraged or disciplined and do poorly. It is not necessarily the wealth of the family but proper parenting that is the determining factor. After 22 years as an educator, my wife can cite numerous examples. She is even teaching the children of the children she taught earlier and the grandchildren of some of her fellow educators. I also think everyone should be required to do some sort of public service in their late teens, even the sons and daughters of the politicians and rich folks but you know how far that would get in congress. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:51 PM I agree with you on the public service. But George W. Bush is famous for getting lousy grades. Of course his father was the president, and.. On the other hand, I guess he hasn't been very successful, has he? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: John Hardly Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:19 PM Who was Thetis and how did all of Western democracy fit into the river Styx? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:41 PM "I think the solution lies in education people up to the level that they can take care of themselves. Where they can resist the miracle diet pills, the get rich quick adds, the internet and phone fraud, the credit card traps and the appeals to buy the latest gizmo. Something most parents used to do but too few do today. I often tell my wife, a teacher, that schools should put personal finance, parenting and such things of a practical nature right in there with english, math, science etc." I agree with that, Dickey, and with most of your other points, only I'm a bit dubious about your first paragraph. My idea of what government should do is that it should do things that are simply too large (or expensive or unprofitable) for other people in society to manage, such as: set up an armed forces, a legislative system, a justice system, a legal system, a currency, and stuff like that. Then there's a taxation system. I think government assistance is also needed in areas like education, communications systems, transit systems, medical systems, environmental systems, and so on...that doesn't mean I think that ALL those areas should be run totally and exclusively by the government. I don't. But I think that some government involvement is probably necessary. Then you've got all the different levels of government: national, state, civic, local...all necessary to some extent. Government is just the collective efforts of a society to manage itself in a coherent manner through people it appoints or elects to do that management and through people those people hire. That doesn't have to interfere with individual rights or individual efforts at getting ahead in life, as long as those efforts are not illegal. I mean, heck, how could you run this society without the government? You couldn't. We're not living in log cabins in the wilderness anymore. I don't really buy your definition of "conservative" and "liberal"...although I know it's the definition that runs through the average conservative's mind when he hears those terms, but I think it's mostly mythological. I don't think most "liberals" want the government to have its hand in everything. Not by any means. It isn't that a liberal thinks government should do everything people won't do for themselves...it's that he thinks government must do those things that people simply can't do for themselves...and it's fairly obvious what those things are. Why have governments always raised and maintained professional armies? Because the ordinary public can't manage it! They don't have the time or energy or motivation to manage it, because they're too busy dealing with ordinary day to day life, and they also can't afford the military hardware to do it properly, even if they wanted do, which they don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:32 PM I agree that the government should do all of these basic functions of government. But I don't it should guarantee and income, food supply, housing etc. People need to work and earn their stuff or they do not appreciate them. Money is the prime example. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:51 PM "Who was Thetis and how did all of Western democracy fit into the river Styx?" All of Western democracy did not get dipped, of course. When it came time for the dipping Rush Limbaugh and his ilk were blowing hot air, so they remain undipped and vulnerable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: John Hardly Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:08 PM I never really cared for Styx. They were part of that era of sticky-sweet over-produced "rock and roll" that turned me off of pop music entirely. REO Speedwagon, Boston, Journey, Air Supply, even Queen... ...I could have done without that whole era. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:31 PM "People need to work and earn their stuff or they do not appreciate them." Definitely. I've seen plenty of examples proving that. I'm not in favor of giving people something for nothing, but I am in favor of a reasonable minimum wage law and stuff like that. I think it's in the fine tuning of how to react to things like homelessness, poverty, ghettos, and so on, that people get into these endless arguments. Something obviously needs to be done to correct such situations, but people have trouble agreeing on exactly what. And then, they always want it to come out of someone else's pocketbook, don't they? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:33 PM Frankly, it didn't occur to me to associate Styx with "rock and roll" music. My first inclination was to think of Dante. Getting back to what Guest Dickey was commenting on, however, if everyone had to work for money it would be a different world all together. The problem is, since the advent of Reagan, and just before the market crash of '29 too, capital has been concentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer people. And people with capital rarely know what it is to work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:46 PM " if everyone had to work for money it would be a different world all together" Whoah! No doubt about that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:53 PM "And people with capital rarely know what it is to work." You are speaking from experience I presume. I think the minimum wage should be $10 to give people more incentive to work. I definately don't want there to be poor people and I am sure the fat cats do not want there to be poor people. The only people I can think of that might want poor people is someone that can use them to get elected. However the poor people must do something on their own and make an effort. Listen to Bill Cosby. Have you ever offered a job to one of those homeless people? They run like the wind. I have had men approach me asking for some change so they can buy some gas because they ran out of gas. I tell them I have some gas and I will give them a ride back to their car and put it in their car. This was a sincere offer. They shut up and amble away. Then I will see them on the other side of the parking lot asking some one else for change. I go over and offer to give them some gas again that they go beserk. This has happened several times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:11 PM Okay, I've met a number of those people as well, and I don't consider them to be merely "poor people." The look and act like con men to me. And I would agree, Bill Cosby has a lot to offer. I worked for a guy one time who would hire winos off the street because he felt sorry for them, and they let him down every time, to a person. I actuallly felt sorry for my boss. But having said all of that, there's something wrong with American society when young, native born Americans can not hope to achieve what there father's were able to achieve because the world they live in is going backwards. At the same time, new immigrants see cutting onions in America as a brand new adventure. They are looking at the world through a whole different lens than the native born twenty-something. I submit, this is a problem that really needs looking into. b |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:19 PM There are a number of people around doing that scam you mention with the gas. I've seen it, but didn't fall for it. Yeah, the guy just keeps going around and seeing who will give him some money. Let's face it, there's a lot of petty dishonesty out there nowadays, but it could be much worse. For example: In Trinidad, where I have some good friends, kidnapping is a very common crime now. And I mean violent kidnapping. 3 men with guns showed up and kidnapped a family member of some of my friends down there out of her car in her own driveway shortly before Christmas, firing shots to break the car windows, since she locked the doors, and injuring her in the process. This is a smart professional lady with children and a family who need her. She has now been missing for over 30 days. The kidnappers contacted the family by phone within a couple of days and demanded a ransom, which is the standard procedure. I don't know how much they asked for...probably as much as they figured they could get. The ransom has been paid, but no sign of the victim yet. They may well have killed her, because she is a witness who could identify them, obviously, and they clearly don't care who they hurt in the process of getting their hands on some money. There were over 50 of these kidnapping incidents in Trinidad in the past year, and Trinidad is a fairly small island. The gangs who do it target local middle class and wealthy people. They often kill the person after getting the ransom. The police are remarkably ineffective in doing anything about it, because the Trinidad police are corrupt and dishonest. No one expects much help from them. People are scared of them, in fact. There's not a hell of a lot you can do except pay the ransom, cross your fingers, and hope your loved one will be released...and pray. The woman they kidnapped is a person who has done an extraordinary amount of valuable social service to people in her community in the past and is very well loved by her community. They don't care. They just want a bunch of money so they can go and buy ghettoblasters and cars and stuff. Why is there so much violent crime in Trinidad? Well...there's a tremendous amount of absolutely dire poverty down there, a great deal of unemployment, alcoholism, and broken homes, a police force that's almost as bad as the crooks, and politicians who either can't do anything about it or won't. Somebody pulls a stunt like that in Cuba, and he's dead...or locked up for good. The police WILL find him (or them). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:38 PM Gee, that sounds like what happens to people when they complain about the government in Cuba or Venezuela. R: Part of the problem is that they are told they cannot get ahead while the nastly old conservatives are trying to tell them they can get ahead if they keep their nose clean and apply themselves. They see this horrible distorted depiction of life presented to them by the entertainment industry ( I am not talking about folk music ) for the sake of profit and they think that's the way it is. They do a crime get caught and where are the consequences? There is a battery of lawyers, ALCU and doo gooders on their side and nobody on the victim's side. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jan 07 - 09:00 PM You wouldn't have that last part to complain about in Cuba, Dickey. ;-) Or the rest either. They enforce the law the way you say you want it enforced. And in Venezuela, they have had democratic elections, with more than one party participating, and Chavez has been elected twice now. Ain't it a bitch when the guy you don't want to win in a democracy does? They re-elected Ortega in Nicaragua too. Apparently, they don't think he's the devil incarnate. You've got a good heart, Dickey, but you've been misled by your government on a few things when it comes to foreign affairs, that's all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 22 Jan 07 - 09:23 PM Saddam Hussein was democratically elected so I guess you would be equally willing to move there or Venezuela. I don't recall my government telling me anything about affairs in Venezuela or Nicaragua. My government does not own the TV and radio stations like the Venezuelan, Cuban and Nicaraguan Iranian North Korean and Saddam governments. Unlike those countries where the Media have to tow the government line or be swatted like flies, the American media is free to bash the government which is all the fashion right now. Do you think that might have some bearing on the situatuion? What does the Canadian media have to say about your government? All good I hope. Otherwise it would seem like Venezuela, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, Nicaragua, Iran and Saddam's Iraq are superior to Canada. Suppose that someone in the Canadian government objected to something going on in the US and George Bush said Go to hell Canada. Wouldn't that be cute? Would it bring you over to the American side and make you hate your government? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,petr Date: 22 Jan 07 - 09:28 PM regarding your points on democracy LH Id say that 1+2 1. the almighty dollar rules 2. those with money influence the electoral process (whether its George Soros or the Oil men that backed Bush and Cheney) are essentially 2 sides of the same coin(if I can use that pun) ie. decisions that come down to the almighty dollar rather than the common good of everyone else. (and since the economic system has no accounting for external costs -that is 3rd party costs accounting for pollution, or climate changing green house gases, or the side effects of turning cattle into cannibal/carnivores by feeding them ground up meat -with subsequent effect on peoples health not to mention the british or canadian beef industry. etc) Ultimately thats not a weakness of democracy but a weakness of the market based economy that doesnt allow for such 3rd party costs. Point 3. Control of mass media by a wealthy few. I think that has changed quite a bit with the growth of the internet, and is likely to change even more- (most kids in their 20s seem to spend more time online than on tv - its definitely harder to have one common msg by a few wealthy corportations. point 4&5 and even 6 again are weaknesses of the economic system, not democracy, that doesnt place value on various 3rd party costs. BUt the market system does have a self correcting mechanism (which is even more effective when you have freedom of information such as the internet) ie. if people dont want to eat unhealthy food, like McDonalds fast food - eventually awareness goes up- sales go down and all of a sudden we have more demand for organic food. KFC and other fast food industries start getting rid of transfats etc. (I know its more complex than that along with a ways to go). One of the weaknesses of Democracy is long term planning. The Chinese politburo is planning 50 years ahead. Our govts only plan in 4-5 year periods until the next election - and when one party is elected they scrap everything and plan for the next 4 years. Regarding the point on how much should the govt. provide for the individual? Id say that if we were completely provided for - that would spoil us, - but this same applies to children of the very rich. Theres a billionaire in my province who publicly stated in interviews that the worst thing that one can do for his kids is to give them money. But when discussing this idea of govt. handouts to the individual one should look at the vast amounts of money given to corporations in subsidies and tax breaks. (Did you know Dickey that the US govt subsidizes the sugar industry with 4 billion a year - Americans pay 3x the world price of sugar, same goes for corn and for that matter the oil and gas industry - Right after Katrina, the oil industry in the gulf received 500 million to explore for oil in the Gulf of Mexico, why? one could go on and on - - also the idea that the free market should be allowed to function and the govt should stay out of the way is ludicrous- after all the major automakers didnt build the interstate highway system - but they sure encouraged it and make good use of it (while they bought and dismantled all the tram systems in the big cities). the last time we allowed market forces to govern themselves the US had the stock market crash of 29. All the talk about free enterprise and yet we always need to hear what Greenspan or Bernanke decide on what to do with interest rates. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jan 07 - 11:09 PM Yeah, the concept of a "free market economy" only works for Goldman Sachs and Wal-Mart executives. But the slaves to convention continue to think that's what we are working with. Maybe convention is the enemy. In any event, one has to wonder if it does any good to pontificate about these things in generalities. It would seem to be more productive if one were to pick out one or two obvious problems and concentrate on those. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: dianavan Date: 23 Jan 07 - 12:33 AM Dickie -"Suppose that someone in the Canadian government objected to something going on in the US and George Bush said Go to hell Canada." Didn't that already happen? Or was it the other way around? Good points, petr, its not about democracy so much as its about the market economy. Sorry to hear about your friend, Littlehawk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 23 Jan 07 - 01:04 AM Did it? If so was it cute? Did it make people turn against their government. Would you like it if your government owned all of the radio, TV stations and newspapers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:22 AM As a point of fact, the government has become almost irrelevant. Multinational corporations own most of the TV and radio stations, and the major newspapers. The public sations are the places the disseminate the most news-worthy information. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:43 AM It doesn't have anything to do with where I want to move Dickey. I have pointed out before that people in those 3rd world countries have NEVER had the rosy set of circumstances freely given to them that you and I were given at birth, merely by being born in the USA or Canada, in far more favorable ecomomic and social conditions. And they almost certainly NEVER will. I have no reason to want to move anywhere. I'm happy to be in Canada. Canada is safe, prosperous, and free. You have to assess each society's progress on the present and past conditions THERE, not here, and on what is possible THERE, not here. Cuba was far better off to be under Castro than if it had stayed under Batista. The Venezuelans who voted for Chavez (a majority of them) obviously think Venezuela is better off under him, and it is the poor who vote for Chavez. It is the wealthy and the middle class who don't like him. Most Venezuelans are poor. The Nicaraguans who voted Ortega back in obviously feel they are better off that way too. You weren't there. What do you know about it that they don't? Give up this tired old BS about me wanting to "move" somewhere, because it's absolutely stupid. Just reread this post whenever you feel tempted to say it again. You have got to get out of this cultural thought bubble you are trapped in where you imagine that everyone in the world has the same problems and opportunities and choices in front of them that you do. THEY DON'T! They are dealing with wholly different problems and choices, and they don't view America as their saviour, they view it as their exploiter, and as a rogue nation that attacks people. That isn't the fault of ordinary Americans, it's the fault of your government, which is simply a tool of a bunch of giant corporations and a military-industrial complex which doesn't care whose life it tramples on in order to make more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Your government constantly issues inflammatory rhetoric (delivered via ABC, CBS, NBC, and CNN) designed to get YOU to support its grotesque and illegal military interventions around the world. Your media criticize your government aggressively only when your giant corporate $ySStem is getting you all ready for an outer cosmetic change in the administration's face...meaning you are going to soon replace a bunch of gutless Republican corporate servant puppets with a bunch of gutless Democratic corporate servant puppets...and almost nothing will really change. Your elections are phony. Both of those parties serve the same corporate masters. If those masters decide the Iraq War is unwinnable, well then, they will use the media to crucify Mr Bush and his people for causing it and losing it, and they'll set about putting the next big game in motion, whatever that will be...and you'll swallow it, I'm sure. The Canadian media frequently criticizes our government (and thoroughly enjoys doing so, I might add...). So does the public. ;-) It's a popular pastime, in fact. Always has been. The USA has often told Canada to "go to hell" in so many words, but not with that much passion (like Chavez did to the USA), because the USA never really gets that excited about Canada. ;-) We're just not a place you guys can bother to get angry about. We basically cooperate with American plans for the most part, and besides, we're not important enough to get angry about. And that's a good thing. It means I probably won't see a US invasion of Canada before I die. Petr - Excellent post. You have described the $$$ problem perfectly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: John Hardly Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:38 AM "As a point of fact" Why is it that every time I read the above phrase, I know that I'm about to read an opinion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:50 AM Check it out. See who owns them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Stu Date: 23 Jan 07 - 11:54 AM "Is the West more advanced than the rest of the world? Is it capitalist? Why is there no connection?" Well, I suppose your opinion of what advanced means in this context counts here. We may be technologically advanced (but that's not just a western trait), but we have become morally retarded and had our intellects dulled by the soporiphic effects of living in a consumer society. We are unable to look after the most vunerable members of our society, let alone afford them the respect and dignity they deserve. We are unable to settle our differences with other societies in the world without frequent recourse to violence. We cannot curb our own insatiable greed even to save the planet for our children and grandchildren - look at the sales of SUVs and the amount of cheap air travel used to see just how much we give a shit about the world our own kids will grow up in. Advancement beyond the aquisition of material growth is not some ideological daydream, however - the fact most of us here are musicians shows it is possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:40 PM The Nazis were more advanced in most of the techniques of technology and mechanized warfare in 1940-41 than anyone else in the world. Did that make their civilization superior to all others? Only in their opinion. You know what you can do with such opinions, don't you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:00 PM LH et al. should read this book |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:36 PM It's by a guy named Strangelove. Should we wonder what his real name is? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:46 PM Looks like an excellent book, Omaar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:16 PM Riginslinger: Read his Acknowledgements section in the book and you'll figure it out. He's a good guy and one of my university professors. LH: Yes, it is. Strangelove used it in my New Media class. It's very scholarly, but very unorthodox and sometimes even quite funny. It was up for the Governor General's Award for non-fiction as well, though did not win it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 23 Jan 07 - 11:06 PM I did not say "superior". I said "advanced". I would say there are in fact objective measures of this--an obvious one being life expectancy. Where are the countries with high life expectancy? And the ones where more than just a few can afford both the time and equipment for such things as Mudcat? Is capitalism in these countries or not? The top country in life expectancy---interestingly-- a recent Mudcat target---appears to be-----------------------------Andorra. There is no question capitalism must be tempered by other forces. Bush's refusal to do this is one of his worst failures------of course it's a LONG list. It seems evident to me that the ideal situation is a combination of socialism and capitalism--as a good part of Western Europe now has. And this is reflected in life expectancies in Western Europe. Other countries high on the list include Japan, Australia and Singapore. But I see no evidence that any country which has completely jettisoned capitalism---which seems to be the goal of some posters here---is doing well in life expectancy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:04 AM By the way, there are elements of capitalism in Cuba today---and there will very likely be more when Fidel dies and his brother takes over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Stu Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:46 AM "It seems evident to me that the ideal situation is a combination of socialism and capitalism" I think you're right Ron, but socialism has become a dirty word (especially in UK politics) and I'm not sure if they even know what it is in the US. Interestingly, when you mix capitalism with communism you end up with a particularly nasty system such as the one emerging in China, where huge numbers of the workforce are treated as virtual slave labour by a corrupt ruling elite. The people have little or no state assistance and their land is taken off them by force whenever the government decides it's OK for someone to build there. There was a particularly depressing report on BBC 24 about the conditions Chinese peasants are suffering due to pollution from nearby factories. People are routinely tortured, subject to summary executions etc. Riginslinger made the point it is all quiet in Tibet - that's because the country has been essentially wiped off the map in an illegal occupation by China. All this illustrates the main failure of capitalism - it has no moral integrity. Communist China instigated the oppression of it's own people and invaded Tibet - capitalist China continues to act on these outrages with the full knowlege (and blessing) of the western capitalist powers. The fact Bush and B.liar fete China due it's being an enormous marketplace whilst waging a 'just' war against another oppressive regime shows the hipocracy and lack of moral integrity the capitalist system requires of our 'leaders' (MDs?). Try this link for more info: www.tibet.com |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:35 AM Visited the "Tibet" site. Things look pretty grim. It was Margaret Thatcher that made Socialism a dirty word in the UK, wasn't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Stu Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:24 PM Don't mention that effing woman to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:09 PM stigweard...Enjoyed bothof your posts . You're definitely on the right road....IMO...Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:53 AM I would like to know why China does not have to sign the Kyoto Protocol but the USA is criticized for not signing. China is currently the second largest emitter of greenhouse gases, and is expected to become the largest by 2030. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Jan 07 - 08:32 AM You've got to wonder if wars will be fought in the future, when one country pollutes, and the pollutants blow over to their neighbors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,petr Date: 25 Jan 07 - 11:34 AM why not turn that question around Dickey. a Chinese reporter asked some western politican - why should China be required to sign on now when the Western countries (USA Britain and Western Europe) were free to pollute for the past 200 years. because we created the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:46 PM Well, I figure that everyone should sign on now...I don't think it matters who caused it in the past. It's a common problem NOW, and everyone should try to be part of the solution....China included. (I hope you take note, Dickey, that I do not always disagree with you on priniciple just because you ARE Dickey! I would appreciate a similar effort on your behalf...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Teribus Date: 25 Jan 07 - 01:55 PM Regarding who should sign up to the Kyoto Protocol, it's all pretty irrelevant isn't it? It simply just does not work, there is not a single country that has signed up to it going to make any of the targets set and promised, because technology currently in use, national interests and growth simply will not allow the reductions required to make the targets set. For all of you in the United States of America, your President told you all of this about six years ago. The way forward outlined by the US was the correct road to follow - reduce emmissions by improved technology and alternative energy - then sell that to the emerging industrial powers of Brazil, India and China. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,petr Date: 25 Jan 07 - 03:58 PM it took Bush 5 years to admit America is 'addicted to oil' in last years address, he said it again this years SOU (but what was done in the intervening year). I'd say he realized that foreign dependence on unstable mideast oil is not good in the long term - and despite being cozy with the Saudis they just dont seem to be able to turn up the taps with a phone call after all. Oh and speaking about targets promised, do you think Bush 20% gasoline reduction is achievable? Dream on. (but at least hes starting to make some sense, or is it just throwing bones to the Democratic party to get his way on Iraq?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:41 PM Whenever politicians set a prospective objective like that, they KNOW they're not going to make it in all probability, but they have to set a figure that sounds....(cough, cough)...well...impressive. Right? A figure that gives the impression they are serious.... And that's all Bush is doing. He's doing the usual thing. And that's what those who set up the Kyoto Protocold were trying to do as well...they were simply setting an official objective as something to aim toward. Any effort in a postive direction is better than no effort, is it not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Teribus Date: 25 Jan 07 - 09:00 PM "it took Bush 5 years to admit America is 'addicted to oil' in last years address," Petr are you actually serious!!! The whole damn world has known that America has been 'addicted to oil' for the last fifty years. Now you bloody well tell me why it has to be down to GWB to carry that weight. The US's dependency on oil is NOT down to who ever governs the country it is down to the population of that country and their personal preferences - True?? Kyoto is a complete and utter dead duck, because it relies on constraint and current technology that immaterial of the best will in the world will not deliver the required result. That has got nothing to do with Brazil, the USA, India or China, Kyoto is totally ineffective. It will not work, abandon it and go for something that will. Be realistic, look at the problem and come up with a solution that works, don't phaff around with something that sounds good but is totally unattainable. For Christ's sake address the problem, and instead of blaming everything in Gods creation on GWB, come up with a realistic solution just for once in your lives. One thing that marks "socialists" out from everybody else in this world is that for "socialists" it's always somebody else's fault. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:08 PM Actually, Jimmy Carter was well on the way to solving America's dependence on oil, with programs aimed at developing alternative sources of energy, but the Ayatollah Khomeini campaigned to get Ronald Reagan elected, American voters fell for it, and we've been totally subservent to the Middle East ever since. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:30 PM So PTR what kind of arrangement would you condsider fair? Let China continue for 200 years while other countrys have to cut their emissions? "International Energy Agency report shows China will surpass US in 2009, nearly decade ahead of previous predictions, as biggest emitter of main gas linked to global warming"http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50B12F83A5B0C748CDDA80994DE404482 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Teribus Date: 26 Jan 07 - 05:18 AM Riginslinger - 25 Jan 07 - 10:08 PM "...the Ayatollah Khomeini campaigned to get Ronald Reagan elected, American voters fell for it, and we've been totally subservent to the Middle East ever since." So subservient that you get less than 25% of daily oil consumption from the region, the vast bulk of that 25% coming from Saudi Arabia. I liked the bit about Ayatollah Khomeni campaigning for Ronald Reagan, that gave me a good laugh. Post-1973, the US and the West in general started looking elsewhere for their oil requirements. All this oil that the US is in Iraq supposedly "stealing", to all intent and purpose Iraq disappeared from the international oil export scene sixteen years ago, its absence was not even noticed. If the United States of America wants to become less reliant on foreign oil, it is the population of the USA that has to change their ways, not the US Government. The latter may be able to give a lead and show the way, but it is only the people that can implement the change and bring it into effect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Stu Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:01 AM "The way forward outlined by the US was the correct road to follow - reduce emmissions by improved technology and alternative energy - then sell that to the emerging industrial powers of Brazil, India and China." Thatcher's right bollock would be proud of you Mr. T! Rather than attempt a new way of thinking and try to introduce a more responsible way of looking at the world you suggest flogging more Western junk to the world's latest capitalist upstarts. This attitude illustrates the fundamental problem facing a world that is struggling to come to terms with global climate change - that this is a marketing opportunity and an excuse to up the shareholder's dividends rather than the time for the human race to realise we are part of an ecosytem that needs looking after and protecting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:15 AM Let's take care of the ecosystem and the nuclear threats from Iran and NK will just go away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:27 AM Let's see, Teribus, when were the hostages realeased from Iran? Why, it was on Ronald Reagan's Inauguration Day, wasn't it? And when Congress finally got the backbone to cut off funding for the war(s) in Central America, where did the Reagan Administration go for funding? Iran, of course. The percentage of oil going to America from Iran really isn't an issue--if you believe blow-hards like Milton Friedman--because if America buys it's oil from Saudi Arabia, the folks who were buying from SA will just go to Iran. And you're right, the American people need to initiate a change to reduce dependence on foriegn oil. But that is just what Carter was doing. The oil moguls in the Middle East didn't like it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Stu Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:45 AM "Let's take care of the ecosystem and the nuclear threats from Iran and NK will just go away." Brilliant! The myopic viewpoint of the right-wingers always brings a belly-laugh. Let's not take care of the ecosystem and it won't matter what Iran, NK, BK, ITV or Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all get up to because they will have more pressing matters on their mind . . . Methinks thou taketh the pisse Dickey-noggin! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:35 AM Kind Sir: Let's not worry about nukes from Iran and NK. When we are dying from radiation, it won't matter where we have an eco system or not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,petr Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:27 PM hey dickey guess who helped Iran with its nuclear programme in the first place, (Im all for stopping nuclear proliferation myself- but lets put it into perspective) .. Before 1979, when the Shah was in power, Washington strongly supported Irans nuclear programme. Today the standard claim is that Iran has no need for nuclear power, and therefore must be pursuing a secret weapons programme. "For a major oil producer such as Iran, nuclear energy is a wasteful use of resources," Henry Kissinger wrote in the Washington Post last year. Thirty years ago, however, when Kissinger was secretary of state for President Gerald Ford, he held that "introduction of nuclear power will both provide for the growing needs of Iran's economy and free remaining oil reserves for export or conversion to petrochemicals". Last year Dafna Linzer of the Washington Post asked Kissinger about his reversal of opinion. Kissinger responded with his usual engaging frankness: "They were an allied country." In 1976 the Ford administration "endorsed Iranian plans to build a massive nuclear energy industry, but also worked hard to complete a multibillion-dollar deal that would have given Teheran control of large quantities of plutonium and enriched uranium — the two pathways to a nuclear bomb", Linzer wrote. The top planners of the Bush administration, who are now denouncing these programmes, were then in key national security posts: Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Stu Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:31 PM "Let's not worry about nukes from Iran and NK. When we are dying from radiation, it won't matter where we have an eco system or not." Touché! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,petr Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:25 PM hey Teribus, where did I say that the US population (or anyone else) didnt know that America is addicted to oil? ... your comment.. The US's dependency on oil is NOT down to who ever governs the country it is down to the population of that country and their personal preferences - True?? absolutely true. But you make it sound as if the Administration in charge has NO control over energy policy. (ARE YOU serious?) there are CAFE emission standards - sure its hard to set those - because there is opposition from the Auto industry as well as the auto unions, but the govt can and does set those standards. (and basically since the oil glut in the 80s those havent changed very much) There are other efficiency standards such as airconditioners - - cheap airconditioners/energy hogs overloaded the system in a heat wave, but poor people are more likely to spend money on a cheap a/c than one that costs more but more efficient. Its up to the govt to set those standards. back in 2001 Cheney gave a very telling speech on energy - which indicated to energy analysts that he didnt have a clue about energy. he said 'we are in the midst of an energy crisis' referring to California (although much of the crisis was actually caused by his and Georges buddies at Enron). The telling sentence; "conservation may be a sign of personal virtue, but it is not a sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy" was ridiculous. What stopped the blackouts in California? CONSERVATION. people cut back, and used less power and the problem practically disappeared overnight. its ridiculous from a business standpoint as well- rather than calling it Conservation/ if you look at it from an Efficiency standpoint it makes good business sense to reduce energy costs and get more value for your money. also back then they reduced spending on alternative energy research and now (after 6 years) theyve turned around and are funding all sorts of alternative energy plans, such as ethanol, cellulosic ethanol plug in hybrids. I applaud the Administration on this but it's something they could have done years ago. it doesnt take a genius to realize that a lot of the Western world oil supply comes from OPEC nations. (After the first oil shock of the 70s the west responded by developing non-opec supplies such as the North Sea etc. by the mid-80s the Saudis finally figured out the power of the market by increasing the supply and putting a lot of non-opec oil out of the market.) the non-opec oil became important again when the price went up in recent years (which is why Russia, and Alberta are flush with money now) eventually the easy non-opec oil is not going to last forever. so it makes sense to start planning alternatives. (basically with a 60mpg vehicle OPEC is irelevant) the fact is that the middle east and the persian gulf was always strategically important for the US, (Carter made his speech in the 70s) and even back in the 53 the CIA helped overthrow a democratically elected govt in Iran - |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: dianavan Date: 27 Jan 07 - 03:50 AM From Wiki - "the per-capita emission rates of the developing countries are a tiny fraction of those in the developed world. Following the principle of common but differentiated responsibility, India maintains that the major responsibility of curbing emission rests with the developed countries, which have accumulated emissions over a long period of time." Kyoto emphasizes per-capita emission rates which allows developing countries to progress and urges developed countries to stop being such energy hogs. It would be an excellent place to start. Oh, and Dickie, CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) is my favorite radio station. I actually think that the programs are excellent. I wake up to it every morning. Its far better than the sensationalism and advertising of private stations. Why don't you just put on your polyester, eat your MacDonald's breakfast and go for an exciting adventure at WalMart. When you get home, you can order a pizza and watch t.v. in your trailer down by the river. Oh, and don't forget to honk your horn for Bush. Be a good little consumer and quit trying to convince Mudcatters that you have all the answers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Jan 07 - 10:07 AM But consumerism is just part of the problem. World population growth seems like a bigger issue to me. And if all these illegal aliens now arriving from the Third World to industrialized countries turn into Americanized consumers--as it seems they are destined to do--the planet will turn into an inhabitable rock very quickly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:33 PM And of course, one of the ironies in this irony-infested topic, is that several nations in Western Europe are in fact already hardly contributing to the population problem at all--some are even barely replacing themselves. And within some countries what population growth there is is by people whom the "natives" of those countries consider little short of aliens. In fact some people in Western Europe--and some in the US, I believe-- consider this very phenomenon Western Democracy's Achilles' Heel--to return to the topic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:50 PM As material security goes up, the birth rate goes down. So...the long term answer to reducing the population explosion is to increase the material security of the poorest populations in this world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:03 PM LH--Dead right. But then the question becomes, as Ringinslinger has pointed out, how to prevent them from becoming-- as put in the felicitous German word-- Konsumidioten. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:12 PM I agree with LH as well. The problem is what to do in the interim. It seems to me that the industrialized countries need to control their borders until conditions in the developing nations can be made better. The Bush policy of refusing to cooperate with family planning programs in Third World Nations doesn't help. Also, to Ron's other poin. I am one of those people who see runaway immigration as the Achilles Heel of Western Democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:19 PM I don't believe anybody is in favor of "runaway immigration". But, in the US for instance, there are now at least 12 million illegal immigrants. It seems clear to me that they should be given a path to citizenship--without leaving the country. A path to citizenship is not just waving a wand-- it is not "amnesty"---but it is a process with a tangible, legitimate, and attainable goal for these immigrants. Also, if it were possible for more immigrants to LEGALLY enter the US, it seems reasonable that the problem of illegal immigration would ease. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:25 PM petr: A little background for you: WASHINGTON, June 11, 2003 - Fifty years ago, President Dwight Eisenhower suggested that nuclear technology should be used to help others develop peaceful uses for atomic energy, provided that the recipients of this technology agree not to use it for military purposes. His vision led to the creation of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and IAEA safeguards later gave rise to the Nuclear Nonproliferation Regime, enshrined in the Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT), which came into force in March of 1970.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Jan 07 - 02:07 PM I would not encourage a "path to citizenship" for immigrants here illegally, and would not encourage additional immigration. It seems to me that the overall problem is population growth, globally, and anything that can be done to discourage such growth should be encouraged. President Eisenhower, looking back, seemed to have a much firmer grasp of reality than the political leadership America has been able to muster since that time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,petr Date: 27 Jan 07 - 06:12 PM good does the US agree to use nuclear power for non-military purposes Dicky? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Jan 07 - 06:16 PM Ringenslinger-- It's a done deal. 12 million illegal immigrants are here now. You have a choice--either a path to citizenship--or they will never come out of the shadows. They would have no incentive to get things like insurance--if they drive. Would you like to be hit by an illegal immigrant without insurance? And if they were citizens they would pay taxes--as of now they can use emergency rooms--which your taxes pay for. And on and on. And if there it were possible for more immigrants to enter the US legally, the border patrol could concentrate on what it should be doing---stopping drugs entering the country, stopping possible terrorists--and not wasting their time--and your money--trying to stop people coming in who want to do jobs Americans don't want. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Jan 07 - 06:23 PM "And if it were possible for..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Jan 07 - 10:51 PM Ron, I'll address you comments in reverse order. I don't think the border patrol should bother with drugs. Their business is immigration. If they concentrated on people, they'd be more apt to catch a terrorist if one should pop up there. Drugs should be legalized, totally. If they weren't illegal, they would have very little value, and nobody would bother bringing them into the country. Illegal aliens do not do jobs Americans don't want to do. They do jobs for wages Americans can't afford to work for. They also do a lot of jobs that simply don't need doing. People in California used to mow their own lawns. And it's not a done deal. The authorities need to go after people who hire illegals. In my book, the board of directors of Tyson Foods ought to be in jail. If you made it impossible for illegals to find work here, they'd quickly discover it's cheaper to live in Mexico, or wherever, and go home. Frankly, I don't care if they carry insurance or not. If they are not allowed to have drivers licenses, they should be stopped for driving without one, and if they don't have proof of insurance, get them out of the country. The one piece of legislation that does need to be passed, is a measure clarifying that segment of the 14th Amendment that allows children born in this country to be granted automatic citizenship. If that were done, a whole bunch of illegals would quit showing up at the emergency rooms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:00 AM ptr: "good does the US agree to use nuclear power for non-military purposes Dicky?" If the US did not have any nuclear capacity and another country was going to provide it to the US then the US might have to agree to such. But when the US is providing it to another country, I think it has every right to put conditions on the deal. Remember Bubba Clinton's deal with North Korea? Here is some background material. The situation does not parallel the Iran situation but it bears reading. I am not your enemy am I? Ringslinger. I am with you on illegal immigrants. Bush is wrong to advocate Amnesty. Also his decision to ignore the fact that his two appointees put 2 border agents in prison while the illegal alien drug smuggler got amnesty which allows him to sue for $5 mil, Sucks. Too bad his ranch is not on the border. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Stu Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:30 AM The whole question of illegal immigration exposes another of capitalism's many faults. The people who are coming to your country, whom you talk about in such inpersonal terms are attracted there (and here in the UK as woth the rest of Western Europe) by the lifestyle advertised by our societies - they want to buy into the 'American Dream' or simply a better life. The one advertising says they can get in America or Europe. - they see big cars, iPods and all the other consumerist junk we spend our lives accumulating and they think I'll make them happy. And whose to say they're wrong? Many of these people live in utter poverty. Their governments either can't look after them or don't care. These people cannot get drugs for their sick children as large drug companies won't release the licences. People struggling for food see a nation of lard-arses and realise there is more than anough to go around if you're on the right side of the fence. "If they concentrated on people, they'd be more apt to catch a terrorist if one should pop up there." Do you actually believe this? That terrorists are infiltrating the US in the guise of poor south americans? Is the the rationalé for having armed civilain militas patrolling your southern borders? Have the Neo-cons so managed to scare the shit out of the US population they buy into this sort of rubbish and they will believe anything they are told? I find some of the talk here disturbing - a fortress mentality that from the outside looks isolationist at best but has far more sinister undertones. Here in the UK the demonisation of 'Asylum Seekers' as they are called is a product of far-right propaganda (which does appear in some sections of the mainstream press), and carries racist connotations. But this illustrates the ultimate failure of capitalism, the fact we cease to consider our fellow human beings with compassion - people trying to get a better life become 'them' - the unnamed enemy - the hordes amassing around our borders ready to destroy our cosy little worlds. Economic migration is going to be one of the greatest problems facing the Western world in this century, and unless we are willing to embrace ideologies other than materialism and consumerism, and unless we begin to consider those who want the same quality of life the priviliged west enjoys with understanding and compassion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Stu Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:31 AM Gawd my spelling is awful. Sorry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:17 AM Stigweard, I must have stated it badly. No, I don't think many people fear terrorists crossing the southern border. But the poor people crossing there, I think, are a bigger threat to the planet, in the long run, than the terrorists. I would probably feel differently about it if the populations in the countries they are coming from was going down. It's not. We have people migrating from places that are hopelessly over crowded, to places that are not-quite-yet overcrowed. That's the problem. The Neo-Cons, depending on how you describe them, are perfectly happy to allow this migration to continue. Human life is perfectly expendable to them. They welcome Latino Immigrants into the armed services. In fact, a number of the recruits are coming from that segment of the population at this point in time. I don't think you can talk too much about Neo-Cons without getting into the welfare of Israel, however, so I won't go on with this. And I agree with you completely. Economic migration is probably the biggest concern of the Western World, now and into the future, and probably the entire world as events move forward. Compassion, it seems to me, could best be put into play by helping under-developed nations improve conditions at home, so the most talented members of their societies are not encouraged to leave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:34 AM As a case in point, I heard on the radio the the population of Nairobi, Kenya is well over 2 million people, but there is no water distribution or sewer system there. If you had a rapidly rising population under conditions like that--and I think they have--it's a perscription for disaster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Jan 07 - 11:18 AM Ringinslinger-- You are showing disturbing tendencies of xenophobia. The root of it is what you have noted--any child born in the US is automatically a citizen. But, far from being a liability, this is a US strength. If you don't believe that, look at France--where, without this provision, there is now a large and growing young underclass, mostly Moslem, who feel they have no stake in the success of France--since they are not now citizens--and it's unclear if they will be. How many riots by immigrants, first or second generation, has the US experienced recently? And how about France? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Jan 07 - 12:33 PM I think the riots we are about to experience, Ron, will be conducted by people who are being displaced by immigrants. The actual problem, though, didn't seem to develop untl after the 1986 amnesty debacle, when people began to come over the border for the sole purpose of having their child born on the American side. Growing populations were a strength at one point in time, like for instance when Napoleon would happily sacrafice thousand of troops to establish even the smallest gain on the battlefield, but things are simply not that way anymore. Too many people is a huge liability. Part of China's economic success has been the result of their "one child" policy. Granted, it has caused other problems, but controlling growth has been economically beneficial. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Jan 07 - 12:45 PM Ringenslinger-- You have a low opinion of Americans' general tendency to dislike civil unrest. Would you participate in such a riot? Or do you know anybody who would? I think your prediction is hyperbole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: able Date: 28 Jan 07 - 12:46 PM The Achilles heel of democracy is itself. Everyone has an opinion and desparately wants everyone else to accept it. Only 10% of the people are classified as intelligent and everyone still has an opinion, I hate to say it but I suspect we are living in the last days of the western world, if you don't believe me, just have a good long look at tv. That's where the white male is portrayed as a buffoon, idiot and moron. If he is the poor bugger who is the glue on the fabric, then maybe it's time we did throw the towel in. My family lives on both sides of the border(due to some unpleasantness in 1776), even so, I won't comment as if I were an American. But, it does seem to me that people tend to dwell on the negatives and disreguard the small things that are rotting away the society that we live in. People make a country great, people also destroy a country, all we have to do is decide which side of the fence we want to be on and proceed accordingly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:59 PM It occurs to me to mention this: Every system has an Achilles Heel built into itself by its very nature. This is the same as to say that every system has a given lifetime, just like every living thing does. It begins with much promise, matures to full capability, reaches its glorious prime, and then begins to develop cracks and weaknesses which become much more notable as it ages, until they bring it down. Eventually it passes away and is replaced by something else. This was true of Egypt, Rome, Greece, Persia, Dacia, Scythia, Thrace, Phoenicia, Sparta, Carthage, Dahea, the Khymers, ancient Imperial China, Imperial Russia, the Soviets, the Aztecs, Imperial Spain, the Napoleonic Empire, the Nazis (who were VERY short-lived!), it was true of anyone you care to name. Their very strengths, when pushed too far became their fatal flaws, and brought them down! Why should it be any different for us? People are just complaining because they don't like the aging process when it happens on home ground. ;-) (And I remember well with what casual arrogance my circle of young long-haired friends referred to retirement age people as "old farts" back in the heyday of the 70's....Ha! We have lived to eat our own words.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:07 PM Ron, I think we are seeing civil unrest everytime the Minutemen go to the border, or show up at a rally in an effort to influence people. And each time they have a new rally, more people show up. So yes, I think it's happening and it's not hyperbole. Re: the rise and fall of empires: when it happened to Rome, China, and Greece, the people involved must have thought--at least to the extent that their life times would let them--that the whole world was changing, either up or down. The difference is, this time it really is the whole world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:14 PM It's affecting the whole world more than it used to, no doubt about that. And yes, I'm sure that people did think "the whole world" was changing back in those former times, when a major change occurred in their status quo. To the Greeks, for example, Alexander's empire pretty much was the whole world, as they knew it at the time....with some unknown bits lurking out at the edges somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Jan 07 - 06:58 PM The "Minutemen" had best watch their step--if they break the law, there are enough people on the other side of the issue to see that the law is enforced. Look at the case of the 2 border agents who shot an unarmed man in the back---then covered up the crime. There is sentiment to let them off the hook, since the man they shot was in fact illegal, and a drug smuggler. But to not enforce the law against these 2 agents would send a terrible signal to honest agents who themselves obey the law. And, by the way, the 2 agents appear to be Hispanic---as does the man they shot. Face it, there are at least 12 million illegals now here---and it is just not smart to deny them a path to citizenship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:43 PM Well, Ron, we disagree. I think allowing them a path to citizenship after having broken the law in the first place to get here would send a message to everyone from Mexico to Argentina that illegal entry is the way to get what you want. I do agree with you, however, on the Minutemen. I've read accounts that some of them are going armed now, and that's the worst mistake they can make. If somebody does get shot, no matter the circumstances, they'll be blamed, and they'd be very had pressed to clear themselves in court. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 28 Jan 07 - 08:09 PM "2 border agents who shot an unarmed man in the back" One of them shot a fleeing and armed illegal alien drug smuggler that abandoned his van with 743 pounds of marihuana in it and fled on foot for the border, in the ass after a scuffle. Then he picked up his shell casings and did they did not make a report. The wound was not severe and the illegal alien drug smuggler was still able to get away The maximum penalty is 6 months suspension for not reporting the discharge of a weapon. He got 12 years and the other border agent got 11 http://rohrabacher.house.gov/news/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=50972 http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_4141562 "I shot," he said. "But I didn't think he was hit, because he kept running into the brush and then disappeared into it. Later, we all watched as he jumped into a van waiting for him. He seemed fine. It didn't look like he had been hit at all." Seven other agents were on the scene by that time. Compean had already picked up his shell casings. Ramos did not, though he failed to report the shooting. "The supervisors knew that shots were fired," Ramos said. "Since nobody was injured or hurt, we didn't file the report. That's the only thing I would've done different." "Ramos, an eight-year veteran of the U.S. Naval Reserve and a former nominee for Border Patrol Agent of the Year" Keep on reading It gets better: http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=173258&Disp=14&Trace=on Snow followed up after the press briefing by faxing 12 pages of comment about the case of the border guards, including the statement from U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton, Hmm...Is this, by chance the same Johnny Sutton who is close personal friends with the Bush family? The same Johnny Sutton that was intimately involved in the Bush reelection campaign? And the same Johnny Sutton involved in the House of Death travesty? Come now Mr. Snow, your credibility is already lacking. http://www.narconews.com/houseofdeath/ In the case of the House of Death mass murder, a piece of that evidence has found it's way into the sunshine. The complicity of U.S. government law enforcers and prosecutors in the torture and murder of a dozen people at the house at 3633 Parsioneros Street in Juarez has been the subject of continuing Narco News reports since April 2004. http://narcosphere.narconews.com/story/2007/1/6/213919/8689 http://narcosphere.narconews.com/userfiles/70/ICE_Letter.pdf |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:10 PM Ringenslinger--- If you don't allow them a path to citizenship--which definitely should include an English proficiency test--such that their English can be understood, for instance---you are perpetuating an underground society which will not pay taxes, for instance, but will use services. They will have--and deserve to have-- medical treatment, for instance. Treatment from emergency rooms is by far the least efficient way to get it--and very expensive for taxpayers. And if they are illegal, that's the way they're likely to get it. You seem to have the attitude that these immigrants would rather be illegal than legal. I doubt it strongly. It's unlikely that a flood of poor people from Argentina north will jump at the chance to be illegal immigrants-----if there's a way to do it legally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:13 PM Ah, my friend Dickey-- RohrbacherHouse as the source. Right. Couldn't get any more objective than that. Do you know who Rohrbacher (sp) is? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:31 PM Dear Ron: I cited several sources. One of them was http://rohrabacher.house.gov It looks like an offical document from the US House of representatives to me. I beleive Rohrbacher is an elected member of the US House of representatives. However the judge and prosecutor were Bush appointees. Please read the links or not. If you see anything that is not true let me know. Usually I read all of the pros and cons and sort out what I believe to be true and what is not. The more I read about this, the dirtier the whole deal looks. Amicably, cordially and respectfully yours, Dickey |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:38 PM They are coming illegally now, and there are ways to do it legally now. It's a lot easier to do it illegally now, especially if we throw up our hands and make them legal every time there are a large number of them. That's what was done in 1986, and that's what Bush is proposing to do now. If anything happens to put an illegal alien in jeopardy the ACLU and the Southern Poverty Law Center jump right in the middle of it, in spite of the fact that these people are clearly not Americans. Bush, of course, is in it to assure big corporations an endless supply of cheap labor. This drives down the value of labor here, and weakens traditional Democratic constituencies. Though the Dems. seem content to take up the cause of the illegals as well, which probably makes less sense than anything. Dana Rohrbacher is trying to get the two agents pardoned. His brother is intrumental in putting out watering stations for illegal crossers. There doesn't seem to be a lot of consistancy on this issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:57 PM Dickey-- The unarmed man was an illegal trying to smuggle marijuana into the US. So that makes it just fine to shoot him in the back, eh? As a fine upstanding US citizen you're feeling nostalgic for the good old days of lynch law, perhaps? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:50 PM Dear sweet Rd: You must be a Bushite in sheeps clothing because you are with him and his appointees on this. Do you believe the agent was unjustified in shooting the illegal alien drug smuggler in the buttocks with a shotgun? Yes or no? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Jan 07 - 11:17 PM Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be a semantical difference between shooting him in the back and shooting him in the ass. I didn't realize the agent was using a shotgun. You've got to wonder what size of shot they use. I don't know how they could have shot the guy with a shotgun and not have known he'd been hit. Still, it seems to me the agents were punished way beyond any kind of infraction they might have been guilty of. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 29 Jan 07 - 01:16 AM Technically it was in the back up his ass. It is hard to shoot somebody in the front of their ass. The agent thought he missed because the guy just kept running and escaped in a van that was waiting for him. I was under the impression that police were allowed to shot at someone that is escaping, resisting arrest by fleeing. Not necessarily to kill but to disable them. If they are facing the police, the police are not allowed to shoot unless threatened with a gun. The agent thought he saw a gun. Do they have to wait until they are shot before they can shoot? They seem to be of Latin heritage so it was not racial and one of them was nominated for agent of the year. They were railroaded or made examples for some unknown reason and the smuggler was given immunity in return for nailing them and now he is suing for $5 million. Maybe Roherbach is a crook but if you read those links you will be surprised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 29 Jan 07 - 09:57 AM Dickey--- Bushite--not likely, Even Bush--like a broken clock--can be right once in a while. And I have said before that he is right to pursue a path to citizenship for all illegal immigrants. This is not "amnesty"----and need not be an easy path. But they must have an opportunity to become citizens. Any other choice is totally stupid--or un-American------or both. Perhaps, to get rid of the illegals, you would like to sanction a huge increase in government spending (as a good conservative?) to vastly increase the Border Patrol-- or perhaps a network of informers (a la Gestapo). Or perhaps you prefer vigilante justice--the "Minutemen" being empowered to apprehend anybody they feel should be arrested? If not, exactly how would you like to deal with the problem? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:57 AM Dickey--I checked out the websites. I have no reason to think Roherbach is a crook. I think he's radically misinformed on a number of things, but not a crook. I agree completely that the border patrol agents were simply doing what they thought to be their job, and they were blindsided by political elements who have an agenda, but who are not disposed to let the general public know exactly what that agenda really is at this time. The Minutemen are not engaged in vigilante justice, because when they see an illegal border crosser, they simply report the sighting to the authorities, much like anybody else might report a hit and run accident or a mugging. Again, I think Bush is wrong on this issue. The solution is to come down hard--very, very hard--on the employers of illegal aliens. Once we see a few CEO's in jail, the problem will begin to go away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:24 PM ":A few CEO's in jail...." Dream on. I have no particular affection for Home Depot or Walmart--to name 2 possible targets--but to envision their CEO's--or any others-- in jail for hiring illegal immigrants is, shall we say, a stretch. Politically, ain't gonna happen. On to Plan B. Hope you have one. Furthermore, be careful what you wish for--you may get it. If all 12 million illegals went back to "country of origin" overnight, you'd be hard hit financially---inflation would go through the roof. Good to know that wouldn't bother you. Or don't you think it would happen? There is no solution which would be fair--or practical--other than a gradual process making these illegals citizens. Also, regarding the case of the illegal immigrant smuggling marijuana into the US---you're absolutely right there are "political elements who have an agenda". But these "elements" are your boys--Tancredo, Rohrabacher, et al. The agents who shot at Aldrate-Davila, the illegal in question, knew they had broken a number of border patrol policies. So they gathered shell casings, discarded them in a ditch, and filed a false report. As the US Attorney for the area put it, the agents "shot 15 times at an unarmed man who was running away from them and posed no threat. They lied about what happened, covered up the shooting, conspired to destroy the evidence, and then proceeded to make up and file a false report." Why is this not so? Are these agents above the law--since you don't like their target? If you let these agents off the hook, what message does that send to honest agents? Or perhaps that doesn't bother you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:33 AM I would like to send them all over to Ron's house and let him support them. He could invite His buddy Bush over to help him out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:58 AM Dear Mr Bush appologist: "So they gathered shell casings, discarded them in a ditch, and filed a false report." The whole Quote is from Johnny Sutton: "Convictions defended On the other side, the White House, U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton and other government officials insist that the agents' convictions were justly deserved. "They shot an unarmed guy who was running away from them," Sutton said Thursday. "They lied about it. They covered it up. They picked up their shell casings. They filed false police reports."" http://www.narconews.com/Issue38/article1374.html "A recently retired, high-ranking DEA official is calling on Congress to investigate the role played by a U.S. Attorney in the cover-up of an informant's participation in mass murder in Ciudad Juárez, Mexico. The DEA official, Sandalio Gonzalez, is pointing the finger squarely at Johnny Sutton, the U.S. Attorney in San Antonio, Texas. He claims that had Sutton taken action sooner in the case, more than a dozen people might still be alive today. As a result, Gonzalez says Congress must act now to get to the bottom of what Sutton knew, and when he knew it." "U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton Is Plugged Into Power Johnny Sutton, the U.S. Attorney in San Antonio, Texas, who now finds himself in the hot seat over the ongoing cover-up in the House of Death mass murders, is well connected to the seat of power in this country. Sutton has close ties to President George W. Bush as well as to U.S. Attorney General and possible Supreme Court candidate Alberto Gonzales – who is no relation to Sandalio Gonzalez, the former high-ranking DEA official who is calling for a congressional investigation of Sutton's actions in the House of Death case. Veteran DEA agent Gonzalez has accused Sutton of retaliating against him for blowing the whistle on U.S. law enforcers' complicity in the narco-related murders of a dozen people in Ciudad Juárez, Mexico. Sutton, a former assistant district attorney in Harris County, Texas, hitched his star to the Bush political machine in 1995, when he was named the Criminal Justice Policy Director for then-Governor Bush. He served in that post until 2000, when Bush was elected president. In the wake of Bush's victory, Sutton was named associated deputy attorney general at DOJ in Washington, D.C., and also served as a policy coordinator for the Bush-Cheney presidential transition team. In late October of 2001, Sutton was appointed by Bush to serve as U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Texas in San Antonio. The U.S. Senate confirmed the appointment a month later. So Sutton does indeed have friends in high places, including his current boss at the Department of Justice (DOJ). San Antonio native Alberto Gonzales also skyrocketed into the big time on the coattails of the Bush machine. Like Sutton, Gonzales also practiced law in Harris County (Houston) prior to joining Gov. Bush's staff. Gonzales served as general counsel and a senior advisor to Gov. Bush while Sutton also was on the governor's staff as a legal advisor. After Bush was elected president in 2000, Gonzales was upgraded to White House Counsel, a position he held until February of this year, when he became the major domo at DOJ – and now is even considered a candidate for the U.S. Supreme Court Justice vacancy being created by Sandra Day O'Connor's retirement. Despite the allegations about a cover-up in the House of Death case, Attorney General Gonzales recently appointed Sutton to the post of vice chairman of his Advisory Committee of U.S. Attorneys, which plays a key role in determining DOJ policies and programs." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:59 AM Dear Ron: The following undercuts your evidence, muddys the water and disproves your case because the trial was unfair: El Paso Times Article 10/18/2006 "...The problem was that the jurors were under the impression that a hung jury was not an option. Gourley, a special education teacher, and Torres said that the foreman of the jury told them that Cardone would not accept a hung jury. Woods said she heard the same statement but could not remember which juror said it. "Essentially, when they saw they could not convince the majority in favor of voting guilty, they conceded their votes, believing that they did not have the option to stick to their guns and prevent a unanimous verdict," Stillinger wrote in the motion. Gourley said he thought the foreman was relating something he heard directly from the judge and when he found no mention on hung juries in the court's printed instructions, "I had no reason to doubt the foreman," he wrote. After the trial, Gourley told the media that he felt pressured by other jurors who wanted to resume their normal lives after more than two weeks of trial. He also said he thought 10 years in prison was a grossly inappropriate punishment for the agents. "Had we had the option of a hung jury, I truly believe the outcome may have been different," he said. The third juror, Woods, wrote, "I don't remember exactly what it was that made me change my vote to guilty on these charges, but I know I was very influenced by my belief, based on the other juror's statement, that we could not have a hung jury. I think I might not have changed my vote to guilty if I had known that was an option."...." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:28 AM Where did they find jurors who were that stupid? As far as political elements who want to see these illegal aliens become citizens, so far this discussion has completely ingnored the other side, La Raza (the race), Lulac, the Mexican-American Legal Defense Fund (MALDF), the Souther Poverty Law Center (which never made any sense to me) and the more militant groups like The Nation of Aztlan. These groups want to increase their political base for the sole purpose of bringing more power to themselves. The George W. Bushites simply want an endless supply of cheap labor, while at the same time bringing down the value of traditional American labor. Left leaning political groups think they will develop into allies like Lorreta Sanchez, who herself would probably join the militants if their numbers increased. As far as the economic inflation element of the whole thing, I think it's greatly overblown. There were people lined up to take the jobs left by the people who were deported after the Swift raids, and the last time I was in Fresno, CA, there was a firm that sole grape harvesting machines that was going out of business. Nobody would buy them because the value of labor was just too cheap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:27 PM The Achilles Heel of the west are the nuclear power plants. In the US this week the NRC allowed the nuke corporations to pass the buck/cost of security onto the federal goverment. Too bad airlines didn't get that deal. What this means is that no defense or security will be forthcoming for US nuclear plants. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:23 PM I agree with Slinger that GWB and the Republicans want cheap labor for their big business campaign contributors so they allow the invasion to continue, underfund the INS and the Border Patrol, handcuff them so they can't stop the invasion. They send the National guard symbolically and won't allow them to guard anything, just watch the invasion. The Democrats want more votes from Latinos so they to buddy up to the Illegals with promises of amnesty and citizenship. Why not spend those billions for the fence on enforcement of the existing laws. It's all lose/lose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 31 Jan 07 - 10:21 AM What amazes me the most are the "so called" environmentalists. The driving element behind population growth in North America is immigration, and illegal immigrants and their offspring are the biggest part of that, yet most of the people who claim to be concerned about the environment are the same folks we find championing the cause of the illegal immigrants. It seems like a pretty simple equation to me: More people = more demand on resources. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:19 PM So? The environment doesn't stop at the border. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: pdq Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:19 PM The extinction of plant and animal species in Mexico is just as tragic as the extinction of US species. Trouble is, specific areas in southern California and southeastern Arizona are absolutely unique. These habitats are being destroyed by the population explosion, almost entirely from Mexico. There are invertebrate species that are already extinct, ones we have never even found or named. Discussions by Northeast US residents about bird habitats and reduction in the population of large mammals seems to ring hollow, when the same people have nothing to say about plant habitat destruction or invertebrate extinction. No big eyes, no Bambi Syndrome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:01 PM Yes, of course, the environment doesn't stop at the border, but an American citizens ability to do anything about it is, at least, diminished once it crosses the border. And pdq makes a good point. Everybody seems to be concerned about polar bears right now, but the food chain runs both ways. Invertebrate species are just as important as any other in the big picture, just not as noticable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,petr Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:07 PM speaking of the environment and the border - whatever happened to all the water from the Colorado river and how much of it gets to Mexico. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:17 PM Well, you're right about that, guys (pdq and Rinslinger). The problem is simply the age-old one recently expressed by Chongo: "Almost everyone moves mainly in emotional directions. They cherrypick whatever facts or rumours they can find that support their emotional biases. They ignore or deny or dance around the edges of what don't support 'em. And the really funny bit is this: they ALL think they are bein' totally objective while they do it. Chimps, I am sorry to say, are much the same. Gorillas are even worse." Liberals and conservatives are both equally guilty of this habit, and you will find them both sending very contradictory messages with their comments on a variety of hot issues. To put it another way: Unconscious hypocrisy and conflicted thinking is everywhere, but people don't normally notice it unless it's being done by someone else that they disagree with about something. ;-) They absolutely don't notice it when they themselves are doing it...unless they have gained through much life experience a keen and wry awareness of human foibles, including their own. Mark Twain, for example, was so good at spotting that kind of thing that I suspect he could even catch himself doing it and laugh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:50 PM Of course, cherrypicking facts is a little different than cherry picking rumour--like, say, yellow-cake uranium from Niger. And people who are doing this in what they consider to be the best interest of the public, have a little higher ground to stand on, it seems to me, than people who are doing if for profit. Like meat packers who hire illegals to they don't have to pay payroll taxes and livable wages. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:56 PM I would tend to agree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:22 PM Ringenslinger-- "meatpackers they don't have to pay payroll taxes and livable wages....." However if you were in favor of these illegals getting livable wages, you'd be in favor of their becoming US citizens--then they could not be exploited as easily. So then you agree with me that these illegals should be given a path to citizenship--without leaving the US. Right? Since, after all, you're only interested in their welfare. Right? Dickey-- Regarding the case of Mr. Aldrate-Davila. I note with interest that while you try to impugn the reliability of Mr. Sutton (with no proof), you do not deny the truth of what he said about this case. Your character assassination of Mr. Sutton will do no good. After all, he's not alleging he saw the entire incident. But an honest agent turned the other two in. If you don't agree with the truth of what Mr. Sutton said, exactly what part of his statement do you take issue with? Let's have some specifics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:27 PM pdq-- Oops, your hypocrisy seems to be showing. Would you care to tell us how a wall between the US and Mexico would help plant and animal species? Or are you against the wall? (In which case, my humble apologies--and welcome to the world of reasonable people.) But please enlighten us. Inquiring minds need to know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Ron Davies Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:33 PM As I've said before, a much better approach would be to gradually make the 12-million-plus illegal immigrants-- we now have--US citizens. And to make legal immigration much more available than it is now. That would cut down on mad dashes through ecologically sensitive areas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: GUEST,Dickey Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:26 AM Ron: I have no objections to his statement. I don't believe they had a fair trial. Do you believe they had a fair trial? And I am against building that wall. We need to spend the money on hiring the personel to enforcing the existing laws, process immigrants, speed up the imigration process and increase the quotas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 01 Feb 07 - 07:57 AM Ron, "However if you were in favor of these illegals getting livable wages, you'd be in favor of their becoming US citizens--then they could not be exploited as easily." I don't see how paying decent wages has anything to do with citizenship. What I think is, if American bussineses had to pay illegals the same wages they would have to pay anybody else, there would be no reason to hire them. Making them citizens simply increases the likelyhood of population increases. Furthermore, if all American industry had to pay living wages with benefits, they'd be motivated to find better means of production. With slave labor, they don't need to do that. Also, I would agree, building a wall is a stupid idea. It would cost a lot of money, wouldn't work, and would be an environmental disaster. But runaway population growth is an even bigger disaster. And streamlining the immigration system would contribute hugely to that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: folk1e Date: 01 Feb 07 - 08:26 PM There is a direct coralation between family size and levels of education / happiness quotent! The answers are therefore fairly obvious:- Free borders up to allow reasonable access to greater wealth. Allow greater access to higher education. Provide assistance to any country that facilitates eather (or both)of the above! Reap the rewards of an economy benifiting from motivated free labour and a burgeoning accademia! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 02 Feb 07 - 07:14 AM And that might work, if you didn't have power brokers like the Pope, for instance, and Pat Robertson telling people to "go forth and procreate," and "ingorance is bliss." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: folk1e Date: 05 Feb 07 - 07:37 PM "Ignorance is bliss" eh...... how do they know! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Western Democracy's Achilles Heel From: Riginslinger Date: 06 Feb 07 - 08:22 AM They're ignorant! |
