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Does Folk Exist?

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Jack Blandiver 27 Aug 09 - 12:10 PM
glueman 27 Aug 09 - 12:42 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 09 - 01:24 PM
Little Hawk 27 Aug 09 - 01:34 PM
glueman 27 Aug 09 - 02:13 PM
Little Hawk 27 Aug 09 - 02:33 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 09 - 02:50 PM
glueman 27 Aug 09 - 02:56 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 09 - 03:13 PM
Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) 27 Aug 09 - 03:14 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 09 - 07:23 PM
Little Hawk 27 Aug 09 - 07:37 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 09 - 07:38 PM
glueman 28 Aug 09 - 02:27 AM
TinDor 28 Aug 09 - 03:05 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Aug 09 - 03:37 AM
glueman 28 Aug 09 - 03:51 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 28 Aug 09 - 04:10 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Aug 09 - 04:15 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 28 Aug 09 - 04:47 AM
glueman 28 Aug 09 - 04:56 AM
Jack Blandiver 28 Aug 09 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Ed 28 Aug 09 - 05:41 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Aug 09 - 05:45 AM
Jack Campin 28 Aug 09 - 05:47 AM
glueman 28 Aug 09 - 05:56 AM
glueman 28 Aug 09 - 05:57 AM
Jack Blandiver 28 Aug 09 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 28 Aug 09 - 06:35 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Aug 09 - 07:42 AM
Jack Blandiver 28 Aug 09 - 07:48 AM
Jack Blandiver 28 Aug 09 - 07:51 AM
Brian Peters 28 Aug 09 - 07:59 AM
Jack Campin 28 Aug 09 - 08:37 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Aug 09 - 09:05 AM
glueman 28 Aug 09 - 09:18 AM
Brian Peters 28 Aug 09 - 09:20 AM
Jack Blandiver 28 Aug 09 - 09:25 AM
Brian Peters 28 Aug 09 - 09:31 AM
Brian Peters 28 Aug 09 - 09:37 AM
glueman 28 Aug 09 - 09:39 AM
Jack Blandiver 28 Aug 09 - 09:41 AM
Stringsinger 28 Aug 09 - 09:51 AM
Brian Peters 28 Aug 09 - 10:19 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 28 Aug 09 - 10:23 AM
Jack Blandiver 28 Aug 09 - 10:37 AM
Jack Blandiver 28 Aug 09 - 10:40 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 28 Aug 09 - 10:44 AM
Leadfingers 28 Aug 09 - 10:56 AM
Leadfingers 28 Aug 09 - 10:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 12:10 PM

The world is bigger than your backyard, you know.

My backyard is a bit of sore point actually; a year on and all my Big Ideas remain unrealised - though I was out there the other day sorting out the bin-bags whilst listening to the Topic album of A L Lloyd's field-recordings of the Folk Music from Albania - a very fine slab o' vinyl indeed, but maybe the term Folk Music means something very different here, or maybe that's why the International Folk Music Council is now the International Council for Traditional Music whose remit is: to further the study, practice, documentation, preservation and dissemination of traditional music, including folk, popular, classical and urban music, and dance of all countries.

Anyway, nice to be accused of being so colloquial, ordinarily on this forum it's generally quite the opposite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Y_tuSsCXw


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 12:42 PM

"It's my emerging conviction that Folk Songs were written by master craftspersons..."

I share your conviction. Moreover, I believe the Folk Revival and all its works to be one of the longest cons ever perpetrated on music. It's pyramid selling on an unprecedented scale.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 01:24 PM

"It's my emerging conviction that Folk Songs were written by master craftspersons"
You told us some time ago that you didn't believve in research - so this 'emerging conviction' would be the result of ..... divine inspiration, guesswork , or what?
Perhaps you might be able to name one of these 'master craftspersons' - ifnot, why not?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 01:34 PM

"How many different ways are there to say the same old things?"


How many?

Oh, about 112,343,836,032,854,737, I'd say.

So I expect this thread will still be going years from now. ;-) Some of us will die before it's finished.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 02:13 PM

"You told us some time ago that you didn't believve in research"

I believe in research for dessicated academic subjects. Or a cure for the common cold.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 02:33 PM

Or a better mousetrap.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 02:50 PM

"I believe in research for dessicated academic subjects. Or a cure for the common cold."
Wasn't talking to you - I was addressing the organ-grinder.
I already know you don't do answers - let's see if he does
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 02:56 PM

"Wasn't talking to you - I was addressing the organ-grinder."

Mind that blood pressure now.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:13 PM

Don't interrupt while the adults are talking otherwise you'll be put to bed without any tea
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:14 PM

"It's my emerging conviction that Folk Songs were written by master craftspersons..."
- glueman
The EFDSS has them locked away in a largish garden shed somewhere in Hampshire grinding out the songs.....

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)
gnome sweet gnome


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:23 PM

Nope - guess he doesn't (do answers, that is)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:37 PM

Deprive me of my tea, sir, and I shall place a set mousetrap at the foot of your bed.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:38 PM

Beast


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 02:27 AM

It's self evident that fine folk songs are written by master craftsmen. There is sufficient DNA if one cares to look for it to discern a signature but in case anyone should imagine I'm hung up on the genius racket, folk songs are craft pieces, not windows on art. Auteur theories are generally over-egged but that doesn't mean they lack an essential truth, the smoking gun of responsibility.

What is counter intuitive is that they are products of 'the people'. Adopted and adapted certainly, appropriated, re-named and full of body-doubles but lacking a moniker to send a royalty cheque does not prove the tweakers are as responsible as the author. Most folkies understand this intuitively and find it unproblematic. A few still carry those C19th reformist agendas with them. Belittling flak from collectors won't stop me telling the truth. It means the trail's still hot.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: TinDor
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 03:05 AM

Yes and No IMO. Yes, based on the fact that every country, ethnic group and/or race has a "Folk" music no matter where you go in the world. When I say NO, Im basically saying that I don't think "Folk" music has any one style or sound.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 03:37 AM

"It's self evident that fine folk songs are written by master craftsmen."
No it isn't, or if it is, provide your evidence...whoops - you don't do eviidence, do you - rather, you much prefer to make unsubstantiated statements from your armchair - much safer that way.
The bulk of folk songs sung today (with the exception of the ballads) are 19th century; not too long ago in the grand plan, yet researchers have failed too come up with 1 composer of the standard repertoire.
In an area like West Clare, which had a large repertoire of ballads, native-Irish, Anglo-Irish and local songs composed within the lifetimes of the singers, researchers have failed to come up with 1 author; with the exception of a local poet in the 1920s who contributed 2 songs to the town repertoire (from a published collection). In spite of the quality and size of the local song repertoire no 'master craftsman' has ever been identified.
Travellers sang songs which must have been made within 5 or ten years of their being recorded, yet failed to identify 1 songmaker.
Researchers, particularly American scholars, Bronson included, have combed the collections and again have failed to do so.
Maybe they were looking in the wrong place - perhaps they should have stayed at home and stared up at the ceiling till the answer came to them, as you appear to have done.
It is nonsensical (and not a little arrogant) that people who have been involved in a music they recognise as folk, for many years should be asked to abandon everything they know on the word of a pair of clowns who make vaccuuous statements on the basis of.... well, nothing.
                                              WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 03:51 AM

Your position is based on an absurdity JC. To say the people wrote them is as nonsensical as saying nobody wrote them.
At some point they required a founding author, even if that writer's efforts have become debased (dressed up as popularised) by repetition. The stimulus for their adoption relies on the permeability and attractiveness of the original product.

To use a pop example Annie's Song is still the work of John Denver even when an unknown Sheffield Utd songsmith changed the words. The sensibility that inspired it is still recognisable and intact. Even when a bit naff, as in this case.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 04:10 AM

Just because an author has passed out of memory, doesn't mean they didn't exist. What of for example Lucy Broadwood's final comments on 'Poor Murdered Woman' (below)?

I know that I might well have to request further information on a song sung by another today, people very often don't mention who composed it or where it came from. How swiftly would the composer of "Streets of London" be forgotten, if there were no documents or recorded materials?

"Source: Broadwood, L, 1908, English Traditional Songs and Carols, London, Boosey

Notes:
Sung by Mr Forster, 1897.

Lucy Broadwood wrote:

    This fine Dorian tune was noted in 1897 by the Rev. Charles J. Shebbeare at Milford, Surrey, from the singing of a young labourer, with whom it was a favourite song. Mr. Foster wrote out the doggerel words, and had heard that they described a real event. Through the kindness of the Vicar of Leatherhead, the Rev. E. J. Nash (who questioned Mr. Lisney, a parishioner of 87, in Feb. 1908), the ballad has proved to be an accurate account of the finding and burial (Jan. 15th, 1834,) of "a woman-name unknown-found in the common field," as the parish Registers give it. Mr. Lisney, who remembered the events perfectly, said that the author of the ballad was Mr. Fairs, a brickmaker of Leatherhead Common. The Milford labourer's version of names, "Yankee" for "Hankey," and "John Sinn" for " John Simms " of the Royal Oak Inn, are in Journal of the Folk Song Society, Vol. i, p. 186. His obscure line in verse 5 has here been altered to something probably more like the original, for "the poor woman's head had been broken with a stick." The Milford singer gave it: " Some old or some violence came into their heads." This song is only one of many proofs that "ballets" are made by local, untaught bards, and that they are transmitted, and survive, long after the events which they record have ceased to be a reality to the singer."


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 04:15 AM

There has never been a claim - as far as I am aware, that 'nobody wrote them' - I would ask you to point out who has made such a statement but you don't do that sort of thing, do you?
The original authors of folk songs are unknown, but that is beside the point. It is the process of acceptance, oral transmission, adaptation and change that give songs their 'folk' identity, not their authorship.
Produce the name of 1 master craftsman - if you can't why can't you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 04:47 AM

"It is the process of acceptance, oral transmission, adaptation and change that give songs their 'folk' identity, not their authorship."

So a song has to be appealing enough to the masses to fall into mass amateur imitations, much like a pop song such as Yellow Submarine? Albeit with the caveat that no-one remembers who wrote it, or what the *exact* words were when initially composed.

To use Folk as a noun dependent on those conditions, seems very much like the reification of a non-thing or abstract concept, into a thing that doesn't actually exist.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 04:56 AM

Now things get slippery. All we can say of the original authors are that they are 'anon'. That's a helluva leap from saying the songs are of the people.

"Don't interrupt while the adults are talking otherwise you'll be put to bed without any tea",

This unthinking juvenile says there is sufficient evidence of syuzhet and fabula in your average Child ballad to infer authorship. That may be a Georgian Gershwin or in might be a Victorian Stock, Aitken and Waterman but there is a narrator embedded within at a more elevated level than the pub singaround. The ballads do not suggest Chap A sings 'Johnny went to sea' into his ale and Chap B replies, 'Jimmy went a soldier-ing', they contain discrete and clear intelligences, plot and story development of a populist kind and the evidence for that is abundent.

The slight of hand occurs when Folk moves beyond 'author unknown' to 'the people' as a shorthand for the arcadian masses. The masses couldn't have written them, talented individuals who knew what people dug did.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 05:38 AM

WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE?

Stop your dementoring a moment there, Jim, and have a look at what I actually said back there. The evidence is the songs themselves; they remain Exhibit A - be they in the broadsheets, or else collected from the lips of the singers themselves. Songs don't write themselves - and they don't arise out of random human failings such as memory loss. I trust the one thing we can agree on here is that Traditional Folk Song represents the finest literature there is, vernacular or otherwise, in the English language. In many cases we do know who wrote them - we certainly know who wrote the sogs of Tommy Armstrong, and we know who wrote McGinties Meal an' Ale and countless others; songs which, if we didn't know of the authors, we would think of as being traditional. Tommy was well versed in the tradition; he wrote his songs to traditional tunes, and he is most fortunate that his genius is remembered along with his name - most others, it would seem, were not.

There are times me might well encounter a song as we would, say, some 19th-century oak wainscotting from the bunk of an old fishing smack and simply marvel at the craft and genius of the thing. This year, Fylde-goers can do this by attending Songs Next to The Harriet (in honour of the late, great, Matt Armour) to be held in the exhibition space where now resides The Harriet herself along with other choice exhibits all lovingly curated by the indefatigable Dick Gillingham. Though the craftsmen of such pieces never left their mark, we know we're in the presence of an individual master of his trade, capable of creating bespoke artefacts of utter uniqueness that are corporeal manifestations of a centuries old tradition.

Here in this DIY flat-packing age-of-convenience where I might take pride in a shoddy machine-cut Ikea bookshelf erected in a matter seconds, I might only pause to ponder when in the presence of a real piece of 18th / 19th century carpentry no matter how utilitarian. How I love to plunder antique shops, to pull out old dresser-drawers and marvel at the hand cut joints - the work of anonymous, long dead craftsmen who were part of an unbroken tradition of woodworking going back thousands of years (certainly if Kipling is to be believed in A Truthful Song). But no, we don't know their names, nor yet their biographies (much less those of the Victorian brickies who built the house I'm sitting in now, snug and warm even on this premature November morning at the back end of August, against the worst the Irish sea might hurl at it!) but we know they were there, because their works remain as evident masterpieces.

Likewise, I feel, with Traditional Folk Songs & Ballads (vernacular masterpieces all) the masters were very often the traditional singers themselves, as well-versed in their craft as any wheelwright, or else a veritable Jack-of-all-trades: a real human individual none-the-less, who not only made the songs, but made the songs their own by very purposeful & deliberate (but never gratuitous) adaptation to their own needs. Thus the songs existed in their Natural Environment, their true ecology, their original and Traditional Pre-Revival Context, which was as a fluid as an oral corporeal tradition can be - very often illiterate, as were many tradesmen, tinkers and the like, yet we might marvel at their genius now right enough.

In Traditional Music we might marvel at the compositions of Simon Frazer, Nathanial Gow, James Macpherson, Turlough O'Carolan, Blind Rory Dall O'Cahan and countless other creative masters of the craft both old and new, in full knowledge that someone, somewhere, somewhen, wrote these tunes we call traditional, and that someone else, somewhere else, somewhen else, adapted them. We can be sure that these people knew what they were doing - as told of in The Legend of Knockgrafton, where, bored with the song of the little-people, the hunchback Lusmore adds his own variant to make it more interesting, so pleasing the little-people with his musical skill they remove his hump. But woe betide Jack Madden! Who thinking to lose his own hump, ends up with two humps for his own efforts.

What else is a tradition but the mastery that can not only make things, but keeps on making them, improving them, passing such skills on to others who'll make their own improvements, or not as they see fit? What others call The Folk Process, I see as something a good deal more purposeful, and determined. Variations occur by way living morphology and deliberate transformation - which are most assuredly not the random by-product of some fanciful collectivity dreamed of by the gentry as the quaint consequence of an ill-educated peasantry who couldn't possibly know what they were doing, far less its true meaning and value. They knew right enough, and we have the songs to prove it.

Just ideas though - open, as I say, to discussion, though no doubt the The Folk Dementors will be out in force to tell me just what a jumped up and disrespectful clown I am for daring to say such things. I am, after all, only 48-years-old and have only been singing Traditional Songs for 35 years. What can I possibly know?


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 05:41 AM

To use Folk as a noun dependent on those conditions, seems very much like the reification of a non-thing or abstract concept, into a thing that doesn't actually exist.

Ooh! Just been on a logic course, or read a book, by chance?


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 05:45 AM

Anonymity is not a defining factor, just generally common to the songs we call folk.
They are 'of the people' however they started out, they became accepted as 'Norfolk' or 'Clare' or 'Lincolnshire' or 'Traveller'...... which is what we were told by the people who gave them to us.
Edward, Lord Randall and The Outlandish Knight were all "Travellers songs" according to the singers we got them from. Two of the most popular ballads in this area are Lord Lovell and The Suffolk Miracle (known as The Holland Handkerchief around here) - both of them, according to the singers, Clare songs.
It is these claims and the adaptation and absorption into the culture that makes them of the folk. Most of them have never passed through an 'author unknown' stage - they have survived only in the mouths of the folk, where they almost certainly originated.
We know, from a few accounts we have, that some of them were a group effort - one such being a Travellers song concerning a matchmaking which was made by a group of guests on the morning of a wedding. Within eight years of the event we got five distinct versions of the song and not one singer could give us the name of the makers.
Again you have failed to answer my question - if they were the work of master craftsmen, why is it that you can't provide the name of one of them?
MacColl's description at the end of 'The Song Carriers' is the one that rings the truest for me:
"Well, there they are, the songs of our people. Some of them have been centuries in the making, some of them undoubtedly were born on the broadside presses. Some have the marvellous perfection of stones shaped by the sea's movement. Others are as brash as a cup-final crowd. They were made by professional bards and by unknown poets at the plough-stilts and the handloom. They are tender, harsh,, passionate, ironical, simple, profound.... as varied, indeed, as the landscape of this island."
No, they are not the result of "mass amateur imitations", rather the compositions and re-makings of 'ordinary' people down the centuries; it is the familiarity with the subject matter that makes this 'self-evident'.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 05:47 AM

It's my emerging conviction that Folk Songs were written by master craftspersons

For a lot of music we can document in minute and excruciating detail why that isn't true. There is a gradation here: in the improvised modal music of the Middle East and India, there are no tunes at all: just cadential formulas and structural principles, which the player navigates differently at every performance. There is a slightly higher level of organization in the old-style bagpipe music of Hungary and the laments of the Csango of eastern Romania (probably originating in pre-Christian southern Russia, and still performed): there is still no real tune, but the player or singer assembles thematic fragments in a somewhat-fixed order (some are just used at the start, some come in the middle, some are used to finish with - a bit more complex than that).

Somewhere beyond that we get two alternative lines of development. In the bagpipe dance music of 17th and 18th century England and Scotland, we get the same small melodic formulas reused over and over again in different combinations. There are probably hundreds of different tune names for 9/8 jigs and 3/2 hornpipes, but there certainly aren't that many distinct tunes: the usual structure of these things is in four-bar chunks, AXBY CXDY EXFY .... ad infinitum (they are very long), and it's quite common to find some of those bars recurring in many tunes. We don't have a melodic corpus here, we have a practice of improvisation by recombination (which must have been enormously useful when you had to accompany a dance that went on for a very long time). The other line of development is what you get in Hungarian song: tune families ramify into an immense number of variants with no identifiable central form, influencing each other and sometimes converging, with so much variation being introduced at every performance that you can hardly pin down such a thing as a "tune" at all, and often about all you can say is that the singer is setting the words to a melodic line in the local idiom. We get traces of that in the British Isles - who wrote the tune for "Auld Lang Syne"? Whoever it was, did they thereby also write the tune for "Comin Thro the Rye", which is almost but not quite the same? The idea of "writing" a tune make bugger-all sense in this situation.

Folk only exists because of The Revival; it's nature and continuity is defined by it

Yeah, like the kids I heard a few years ago doing the same playground games in the same Edinburgh school that Ritchie collected them from fifty years before were only doing it because of Martin Carthy. And the Black American kids Azizi hears doing the same ones must have learnt them from Dave van Ronk.

For fucksake, this is too silly for words.

It is nonsensical (and not a little arrogant) that people who have been involved in a music they recognise as folk, for many years should be asked to abandon everything they know on the word of a pair of clowns who make vacuous statements on the basis of.... well, nothing.

A-MEN to that.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 05:56 AM

Is patronisation the Dementor's weapon of choice. Read what people right FFS.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 05:57 AM

*Waits for advice on grammar, with added condescension*


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 05:59 AM

Wha-hey! Watch those Folk Dementors flap about! Sucking the life & soul out of the music as they spread their sorry message of despair and misery!

Don't you get it, Jack & Jim? These ordinary working men and women were the fucking masters - in many cultures, as Jack points out, they remain the fucking masters.

And if it wasn't for The Revival, Jack - you wouldn't even think of such things as being Folk at all - as, indeed, much actual Folk Culture isn't - not least by the Folk who are actually doing it.

Too silly for words? You said it mate!


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 06:35 AM

I think that it's grossly arrogant and condescending to characterise the thoughtful, knowledgeable, evidence-based contributions of Jim Carrol and Jack Campin as 'flapping about'!

Some of us need to learn that just because we've had a 'great thought' it doesn't automatically become a 'great fact'.Surely the armchair, make-it-up as you go along theorisers among us are the true 'flappers': where's your evidence?!!

Sits back and waits for the inevitable abuse ...


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 07:42 AM

"I think that it's grossly arrogant........."
Thanks Shimrod, but speaking for myself, I really have no problem having my contribution described as 'flapping about'. At last it gives the impression of a degree of activity which is more than cen be said of the armchair musings we are being treated to here.
We are still not being offered anything to back up the suggestions of Stan and Ollie, but then again, the horizon, from a sedentary position is extremely limited.
The evidence of the existence of folk song is overwhelming and it is, to me at least, self evident that the songs were the products of many people who composed and re-composed them.
There is also evidence that many of them were never even committed to 'hard copy', but remained only in the mouths of the singers.
David Buchan in his 'The Ballad And The Folk' suggested that the ballads never had fixed texts but were remaid on the spot by the singers, using the plot and established commonplaces.
The Travellers, who were universally non-literate (as well as being a major source of our folk songs), made new songs and carried the old ones in their heads.
Even the attitude of rural communities towards literacy was ambivilent, suggesting that the songs were held and communicated almost exclusively orally.
If you have any evidence of 'master craftsman', I would be glad to get it, but once again, I won't hold my breath
.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 07:48 AM

Sits back and waits for the inevitable abuse ...

I'll leave the inevitable abuse to you, Shimrod, who, in failing to appreciate the content of my posts, much less the spirit in which they were written, nevertheless feels the need to mock and sneer from behind the backs of far greater minds than his.

This isn't about evidence - the evidence is the songs themselves - no question there. Rather, it a matter how we might interpret that evidence in the light (or otherwise) of the fact that The 1954 Definition and related Doctrines (such as The Holy Folk Process) has become a Question-it-at-your-peril Theological Absolute which sits as a headstone on the grave of a Folk Revival which has not only failed Traditional Folk Song, but in so doing shamefully misrepresented it, resulting in the somewhat desultory status amongst other British Cultural Treasures that it enjoys today.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 07:51 AM

If you have any evidence of 'master craftsman', I would be glad to get it, but once again, I won't hold my breath

Okay. Try this, Jim:

There is also evidence that many of them were never even committed to 'hard copy', but remained only in the mouths of the singers.
David Buchan in his 'The Ballad And The Folk' suggested that the ballads never had fixed texts but were remaid on the spot by the singers, using the plot and established commonplaces.
The Travellers, who were universally non-literate (as well as being a major source of our folk songs), made new songs and carried the old ones in their heads.
Even the attitude of rural communities towards literacy was ambivilent, suggesting that the songs were held and communicated almost exclusively orally.


That's evidence enough for master craftsmen for me!


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 07:59 AM

glueman: "there is sufficient evidence of syuzhet and fabula in your average Child ballad to infer authorship."

I must admit I had to Google "syuzhet and fabula" to have a clue what that sentence meant - it might have been clearer to us plebs had you used nice simple synonyms like "story" and "narrative".

Many Child ballads exist in scores of variants. A given ballad may be set to tunes with wildly differing melodic or rhythmic structures; possess several alternative refrains; tell its tale using substantially different texts; tell subtly different tales using substantially the same text; be virtually unrecognizable from one version to another, save for the general plotline or a couple of key stanzas. Moreover, Child himself found analogues of many of his ballad types in European and Eastern folktales, and some ballads are clear descendents of medieval romances. These pieces did not originate, fully-formed, at some identifiable point in time, and stay that way. There was no 17th-century Dylan or MacColl churning out ballads we could point to as THE definitive versions.

Suibhne wrote: "Variations occur by way living morphology and deliberate transformation - which are most assuredly not the random by-product of some fanciful collectivity dreamed of by the gentry..."

This is a travesty of current understanding of song evolution. Nobody said that individual singers didn't improve songs deliberately - quite the opposite. We do have a plethora of mondegreens to demonstrate the 'Chinese Whispers' theory of evolution by accident, but there's plenty of evidence too of ingenious individual creativity.

"Likewise, I feel, with Traditional Folk Songs & Ballads the masters were very often the traditional singers themselves"

That's what I feel, too, Suibhne - where, if not from individual singers, did all those wonderfully varied tunes come from? It's also precisely what I understand by the term 'Folk Process' that you like to vilify. To pass off all that creativity (maybe not 'collective' but surely 'sequential') as the work of a an elite class of bygone songwriters is to rob the working class singers you so admire of their due credit.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 08:37 AM

David Buchan in his 'The Ballad And The Folk' suggested that the ballads never had fixed texts but were remade on the spot by the singers, using the plot and established commonplaces.

That's rather exaggerated. Buchan was bright and imaginative but died too young to grow any common sense. He'd have fitted in fine here. (How old would he be now? - younger than me, I think).


At some point they required a founding author, even if that writer's efforts have become debased (dressed up as popularised) by repetition.

Seen the original version of Ye Jacobites by Name? Would you rather hear or sing that than the folk-processed one Burns popularized? Same goes for the majority of broadside songs - they are nearly always improved by a few decades of editing by oral tradition. Try The Wild Rover for another one.


The 1954 Definition and related Doctrines (such as The Holy Folk Process) has become a Question-it-at-your-peril Theological Absolute which sits as a headstone on the grave of a Folk Revival which has not only failed Traditional Folk Song

Big words and flashy rhetoric don't make gratuitous insults true and don't make the imaginary enemies they're aimed at real.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 09:05 AM

The songs were the products of many hands and mouths in any one given community.
The implication of 'master craftsman' is that they were a product of one gifted individual, which is certainly not the case.
Apart from anything else, they were by no means all masterpieces, even if some of the poorer ones survived for one reason or another.
However, we seem to be making some progress as SO'P now seems to be accepting the exisance of 'folk' raher thaan attributing it to the imaginations of academics and collectors who, despite their shorcomings, got off their bums and took a look for themselves
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 09:18 AM

"it might have been clearer to us plebs had you used nice simple synonyms like "story" and "narrative".

It might have been, but I'm buggered if I'm going to pander to the neurotic 'worthy illiterate' one moment 'scathing historian' the next bi-polarity definitionists cover their track with.

So far as I can tell the collector's position is 'you can't find one author so everyone/ the people wrote it and I'm their emissary on earth' jibberish. I've seen nothing but time-served self-promotion or bald opinion to underpin this tulipomania and as such my opinion is as good as anyone's. If the tradition is indeed some kind of cumulative manifestation of unworded society, its story machinations go beyond any compound narrative form I'm familiar with anywhere in the world so on balance, I'm sticking with the idea unknown clever folk wrote the originals.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 09:20 AM

"...a Folk Revival which has not only failed Traditional Folk Song, but in so doing shamefully misrepresented it, resulting in the somewhat desultory status amongst other British Cultural Treasures that it enjoys today."

If you're suggesting that, had it not been for the Folk Revival, traditional song and music would be part of the English cultural mainstream, you're in fantasy land. Singers like Bob Copper and Walter Pardon, quite independently of any Folk Revival, made conscious efforts to preserve the old songs they loved because the songs were being ignored or ridiculed by their peers, even as far back as the 1930s.

You've made the assertion more than once on this thread that the Revival misrepresented or falsified the actual tradition. The revival is certainly not without faults or existential contradicitons, but where's the evidence of widespreaed falsification?

So, Bert Lloyd tarted up a few songs (as did Baring-Gould and others going back to Thomas Percy)? But the revival documented thousands of songs whose provenance is unquestioned.

So, many revival performers didn't spring from the cultural stock from which their songs arose? But they didn't claim to be. Just enthusiasts discovering a treasure trove.

What the revival did do was to give a platform to a swathe of outstanding singers and musicians from the rural working class and traveller communities, in order that their talents could be more widely appreciated. It also made available recordings which preserve (one hopes, in perpetuity) the songs and music of those communities.

Which part of that is a "con" or "misrepresentation"?


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 09:25 AM

To pass off all that creativity (maybe not 'collective' but surely 'sequential') as the work of a an elite class of bygone songwriters is to rob the working class singers you so admire of their due credit.

Please read what I said back there, Brian. I'm not talking of an elite class, any more than a blacksmith, farrier, cooper, carpenter or joiner could be said to have belonged to an elite class. I see the singers themselves as being the time-served working class masters, they are makers & transformers of these songs; a cultural tradition of highly skilled song-making - just as the brickies who built my house were highly skilled, likewise the carpenters and cabinet makers who made the furniture I often drool over in museum of wonders that is The Preston Antiques Centre. No doubt they have their modern counterparts, but I don't see much evidence of it in this day and age; likewise in the craft of folksong-writing - there are exceptions, as I've noted, but the rule, it would seem, as with flat-pack furniture, is nothing to be proud of; certainly when compared with the poetic genius embodied in Traditional Song and Balladry*. So the credit goes to the supremely gifted individuals who were the working-class song-makers of yore - people like Tommy Armstrong etc. - to the carriers, and the singers. Of course, there are lesser talents at work, and random mutations, and any amount of more rustic treen floating around which is just as beguiling.

* Personal taste, of course, but as a Hoary Old Traddy allow me my prejudices. I am now 48; a year older than Peter Bellamy was when he died. This is humbling, and strange - especially I'm still amongst the youngest in Folk Clubs, Festivals and Singarounds! A Queer Do and no mistake...


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 09:31 AM

"I'm buggered if I'm going to pander to the neurotic 'worthy illiterate' one moment 'scathing historian' the next bi-polarity definitionists cover their track with"

Ah, so baffling us with obscure jargon from a school of Russian literary criticism wasn't an attempt to claim the academic high ground, then?

"So far as I can tell the collector's position is 'you can't find one author so everyone/ the people wrote it and I'm their emissary on earth' jibberish."

Which collector said or believed that? Yet another straw man.

"my opinion is as good as anyone's"

The reason I was hoping this thread had died. All arguments countered with "Because I Say So".


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 09:37 AM

"Please read what I said back there, Brian. I'm not talking of an elite class... I see the singers themselves as being the time-served working class masters, they are makers & transformers of these songs"

Please read what I said back there, Suibhne. It's glueman who's still talking about "unknown clever folk". There's nothing in the above I would disagree with, and nor - I suspect - would some of your other adversaries here.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 09:39 AM

Fine Brian 'the people' didn't write it. We are in agreement. It was always nonsense as an idea, it's counter-intuitive and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

This slipperiness about definitions is grotesque. Anon is anon and nothing should be read into that anonymity. It doesn't open the door to every Tom, Dick and Harry, it's the work of specialists.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 09:41 AM

If you're suggesting that, had it not been for the Folk Revival, traditional song and music would be part of the English cultural mainstream, you're in fantasy land.

Maybe I am at that, Brian - but sometimes it's nice to dream - to wonder how things might have been... I am, however, a realist. And in any case, with but few exceptions, my love of Traditional English Speaking Folk Song in no way endears me to what is done in the name of The Revival, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 09:51 AM

I reject the idea that folk music is a manufactured entity in the minds of certain people
who have a cultish view of it on Mudcat.

I see it in a larger context as music that is made for people of varying views to
participate in it. There are those of us on Mudcat who don't see folk music as
a precious museum piece or an elitist hobby.

The idea that it is a rarified form of scalp collecting for a privileged few is abhorrent to me.

It seems to me that this is an idea that is fostered in certain circles in Academia.

Folk music for me will always be a vital and flourishing aspect of music accessible
to all and an alternative to the marketing of music on a popular level.

There is maybe not a monolithic "Tradition" as you hear about in certain circles
but there is indisputably a historical significance to what we call folk music that
is distinguishable it from manufactured contemporary songwriting. There are
"traditions" (plural) which engage the vitality of this form of musical expression.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 10:19 AM

"David Buchan in his 'The Ballad And The Folk' suggested that the ballads never had fixed texts but were remade on the spot by the singers, using the plot and established commonplaces."

As Jack Campin suggested, Buchan's theory doesn't find too many takers these days. However, it's interesting to note that when Frank Proffitt - a farm worker, carpenter and road mender in the mountains of North Carolina - sang a version of Child 68 that he'd heard as a boy to Frank and Anne Warner in 1959, he told them that "in trying to recall the way the song went, it is possible I use a rhyming word of my own here and there".

His 'Song of a Lost Hunter' is a version of 'Young Hunting' (prefaced by a lurid, necrophiliac 'backstory'), told in stanzas many of which differ significantly from other versions of the ballad found even in the same state. So it does seem as though Proffit recreated the ballad at least partly in his own words - although whether he did this "on the spot" when the collectors arrived is doubtful.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 10:23 AM

Ed: "Ooh! Just been on a logic course, or read a book, by chance?"

I rarely read many books these days as it happens, but I did go to school and I learned me some mighty fancy words (of over two syllables!) there too. But thanks for your interest anyway :) x


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 10:37 AM

I agree, Frank. One* of the reasons I don't wring my hands too much over the death of the Traditional Folk Song (any more than I do at the passing of the skills of traditional craftsmen) is because out here in the real world real folks are still playing real folk music - irrespective of genre. I love Traditional English Speaking Folk Song, but that's just something I sing for the hell of it - the magic of sitting in filthy back rooms of filthy old pubs getting pissed drinking filthy old beer from filthy old glasses and merrily roaring a few filthy old chorus with a bunch of filthy old like-minded souls.

At its best, it touches passers-by very deeply, convincing me of an enduring potency, if not authenticity, but that's just a hobby of mine. I have questioned - and continue to question - the extend to which this stuff ever permeated society as a whole much less the extent it does so now. But as it stands, it is a pragmatic means of a very purposeful Entertainment, and so to that end alone I will sing the old songs, and listen to others doing likewise. Seldom however, will I buy the product.

Like folklore, real folk music is done in complete innocence of it being folk music. This has always been the case, and remains the case away from a revival that only concerns itself with folk as genre rather than as the universal human phenomenon it is now, and always has been. Where there is folk, there will be folk music, just not that sort of folk music. To hell with it. I'm passed caring. The important thing is to play what you will. After all, as Duke Ellington said, there's only two types of music anyway - good and bad.

S O'P, 3.30pm GMT, listening to The Clemencic Consort's Play of Daniel.

* Of course there are others, but being entirely subjective they have no relevance here.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 10:40 AM

His 'Song of a Lost Hunter' is a version of 'Young Hunting' (prefaced by a lurid, necrophiliac 'backstory'), told in stanzas many of which differ significantly from other versions of the ballad found even in the same state.

Why does this sentence make me drool with anticipation?


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 10:44 AM

"In Traditional Music we might marvel at the compositions [...] in full knowledge that someone, somewhere, somewhen, wrote these tunes we call traditional, and that someone else, somewhere else, somewhen else, adapted them. We can be sure that these people knew what they were doing - as told of in The Legend of Knockgrafton, where, bored with the song of the little-people, the hunchback Lusmore adds his own variant to make it more interesting, so pleasing the little-people with his musical skill they remove his hump. But woe betide Jack Madden! Who thinking to lose his own hump, ends up with two humps for his own efforts."

Lovely analogy SO'P. And I so wish I still had the storybook I recall this tale from too.. As even now, a relative newcomer to folk - and with no axe to grind of my own, I must say I'm finding the heretics reasoning on these discussions, increasingly persuasive.


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 10:56 AM

If Folk doent exist , there are a LOT of Festivals through the year and round the world that celebrate a Non Existent thing !


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Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 10:57 AM

600


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