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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Amos Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:01 PM >"Thank you for calling the White House switchboard. Our new voice >activated system will help direct you to the proper office." > >"If you are calling to complain about the mishandling of the war in >Iraq , press one." > >"If you are calling to complain about the abuse of prisoners and the >White House's endorsement of torture, press two, and then say the name >of the torture site that you wish to complain about (and please note >for the sake of the voice mail system that it is pronounced Abu GRABE, >not Abu grahb)." > >"If you are calling to complain about illegal spying on American >citizens and the abuse of FISA laws, press 3, but do know that these >calls will be recorded." > >"If you are calling to complain about the disastrous mismanagement of >the hurricane Katrina recovery, please press 4, and your call will be >directed to the Federal Emergency Management Agency. If you wait for >more than 48 hours without anyone picking up the phone, hang-up and >send a letter. We have been assured that all letters will receive a >prompt reply within one year." > >"If you are calling regarding the administration's unwillingness to >enforce immigration law, press cinco, por favor, or direct any thanks >to your local chamber of commerce office, which can explain why we like >cheap labor that can't vote and where you may be able to find willing >illegal day laborers in your local area." > >"If you are Jack Abramoff or any Saudi prince, please call the private >line * it is always open." > >"If you are calling about the Medicare prescription debacle, please >press 6. If you are having a medical emergency, you should proceed >directly to your local emergency room, although please understand that >your health coverage may not pay for the visit and you can no longer >get out from under the bill by declaring bankruptcy." > >"If you are calling about the b allooning federal deficit or the recent >hike in the debt ceiling to $3 trillion, please press 7, unless you are >Bill Clinton calling to brag about the surpluses under your >administration, in which case we don't want to hear about it." > >"If you are calling to complain about the White House's efforts to >block stem cell research, please press 8, and then say the disease that >you are most concerned about that may ultimately be cured through >scientific research. If you are a scientist calling with new research >findings or important clinical data, please hang up, we don't want to >hear from you." > >"If you are calling to express concern about global warming and our >efforts to roll back environmental laws, please press 9, unless you are >a government scientist, in which case you are forbidden to talk without >first clearing it with the oil lobbyist we hired to screen and edit >your research. He can be reached at Exxon 4-2611." > >"If you are calling to complain about the President's efforts to >"privatize" social security, please press 1 and then the pound key, and >your call will be redirected to representatives at Merrill Lynch, who >will explain the virtues of putting all your savings in the stock >market." > >"If you are calling about the need for more prayer in public schools >or any other faith-based initiatives, please press 10 and Reverend >Falwell will be with you shortly." > >"If you are calling to lobby for more Supreme Court Justices who will >block a woman's right to choose, please stay on the line and the >President will be with you immediately." > >"If you are calling about all the tax breaks for the wealthy, press >*1 if you have ideas for more loopholes and are making more than a >million dollars per year; if you are earning less than a million per >year but have ideas for how you may help the wealthy, press *2; if you >are earning less than a million per year and ju st want to complain that >all the burden is now falling on you, please call back in a couple of >years. > >If you voted for President Bush and are now concerned that over 12% of >the U.S. population now falls below the poverty line while the top 1% >has wildly increased their wealth, please understand that we are not >laughing AT you*" > >"Press zero at any time if you would like to hear these options again. >Thank you for calling the White House. It is our pleasure to serve >you." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:31 PM So where does Virginia rank? If the right to work law is so bad, Why hasn't it drug Virginia down? I know where it has lead us. It has lead us to companies moving offshore. And this: Sleazy labor leaders live high on hog as members struggle to earn a weekly wage By DOUGLAS FEIDEN DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER I actually worked in a shop once that had an ex union business agent working there. He had embezzled money and taken bribes and could not work in a union shop. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:08 AM Well, O.G.... With Fairfax and Loudoun Counties being the two rcihest counties in the US, Virginia does very well... But I can tell you that if you go to Richmond, Roanoke, Lynchburg, Bristol you'll find abject poverty with folks still working for less than $6 an hour... That's the effects of 14(b)... Having worked as a social worker in Ricmond for many years, I know this personally... Now back to Katrinagate... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:05 PM Bobert can't say how much money the Bush administration should nave spent to prevent the death and destruction in New Orleans yet he keeps ragging about Bush cutting funding as if that is the cause. No amount of money would have prevented the destruction because it is a 10 to 20 year project to get the levees up to where they would withstand Katrina. The death was caused by the failure of the local government to evacuate the people as per their plan. Bobert says their plan was not funded. I say they had all of the rescources they needed to evacuate the people but they blew it. They piddled around worried about lawyers and what would happen to the tourist trade. You know like the Mayor in the movie Jaws? Despite the understanding of the Gulf Coast's particular vulnerability to hurricane devastation, officials braced for Katrina with full awareness of critical deficiencies in their plans and gaping holes in their resources. While Katrina's destructive force could not be denied, state and local officials did not marshal enough of the resources at their disposal... ...Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco –who knew the limitations of their resources to address a catastrophe—did not specify those needs adequately to the federal government before landfall. For example, while Governor Blanco stated in a letter to President Bush two days before landfall that she anticipated the resources of the state would be overwhelmed, she made no specific request for assistance in evacuating the known tens of thousands of people without means of transportation, and a senior state official identified no unmet needs in response to a federal offer of assistance the following day. The state's transportation secretary also ignored his responsibilities under the state's emergency operations plan, leaving no arm of the state government prepared to obtain and deliver additional transportation to those in New Orleans who lacked it, when Katrina struck. In view of the long-standing role of requests as a trigger for action by higher levels of government, the state bears responsibility for not signaling its needs to the federal government more clearly.... GWB blew it in the sense that he appointed incomptent people to manage the recovery. Here is what went wrong in a nutshell Bobert is going to be able to find a lot of stuff at that URL to prove his point but it also points out the failures of the locals. What I am trying to say is, why would Bobert try to put all the blame on one person when a lot of people are to blame? The reason is because Bobert has a personal grudge against GWB that affect his reasoning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:38 AM Yes, Bobert can say how much money should have been allocated and spent... What was requested, for starters... Both FEMA and the Army Corpes of Engineers got shafted... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:05 AM How much is that Bobert and what would it have accomplished in a 10 to 20 year project? You ignore any shortcomings of the local government because you are biased. "The Orleans Levee District -- responsible for most flood control in the city and armed with a $40 million annual budget and nearly 300 employees -- had branched out over the years to build parks, marinas, a cash-strapped airport and a dock it leased to a casino gambling boat. Critics and some former board members say the board had lost sight of its original mission." http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05329/612494.stm |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: freda underhill Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:19 AM Today is the one-year anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. Not only that, it's the six-month anniversary of when President Bush found out about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:29 PM Give up, Old Guy... Askin' me to project how allocatin' a certain amount of requested money over a 10 to 20 year plan is just plain juvilinistic debating... It'd be like me askin' you to prove that George Bush actually believes in God 'or askin' you how many years you ahve left to live... But seein' as you are holdin' a very weak hand I guess that these hypothetical riddles is about all you have left... Like I said... Give up, man... You are making a cvomplete fool out of yourself with these little games... Next thing ya' know yer going to drag out the "angels on the head of a pin" argument... Sheese... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:18 PM If the question is so easy, answer it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 02 Sep 06 - 07:44 PM Only after you tell me how many angles can dance on the end of a pin... It is a rediculous question which has no definative answer as it hypthetical beyond proof... That's why I can the question juvinilistic... What we do know is that both FEMA and ther Army Corpes of Engineers were grossly underfunded by Bush and we do know that the levees were breached and we know that FEMA wasn't up to the task... These are the issues... Not yer childish umprovable riddles... Oh, BTW, prove that you exist, Old Guy.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Barry Finn Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:31 PM Where is the sign that says "THE BUCK STOPS HERE". It wasn't just a local or state problem, it was a national problem which traslated means it's was a federal problem. And it's still afederal problem. Lay it at the feet of anyone you'd like but it was up to the top leaders of the government that failed & their top leader why it's still failing. A year latter & it's still a disaster zone. If not for all the charities, the goodness & kindness of the public sector NO might as well as sunk into the sea & still may head hat way if something else comes along. The governemnt needs to put their backbone & shoulder into this disaster & stop blaming others & leaving the mess for others to clean up. The victims, the locals & their local & state governments & the general public can't do this they have been overwhelmed right from the start. It's not just a matter of opening up downtown New Orleans & the French Quarter for the tourists & the buniness folks that should've been that last priorty. It's the victims that needed help right from before the beginning & they are still being victimized & are still in need of help. The Federal Government is not only not willing to get fully behind this but they also don't appear to care enough nor does it appear after a years time that they yet to posses the capabilities to take these resonabilities & duties to task. I'm here to tell you that the government is still sound asleep on a chair in a shoolhouse class room. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: toadfrog Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:51 PM The problem is, Bush and his followers believe we should: 1. Let the market take care of it, or 2. Charity will take care of it, or 3. It's all the job of state and local govts. Don't blame FEMA (it shouldn't exist anyway). It isn't that Bush is incompetent. Actually, his ideology says, what happened with Katrina is what should happen when there is a disaster. The idea is, all those people in New Orleans brought their own problems on themselves by being poor. The ideology says, poor people have problems because they "lack self reliance," drink, engage in sex or are otherwise morally inferior. And the ideology serves the purpose of protecting a constituency, the "haves and have-mores" from paying taxes. That's why they put a political hack in charge of FEMA. They don't think the government should help ordinary people when there is a national disaster. Don't blame it on Bush's supposed incompetence. He isn't incompetent, and those who suppose he is will repeat their mistakes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:59 AM Well said. both Barry and toadfrog... Yes, Bush knew what he was doing when he used the dough that was supposed to go into disaster relief to fund his SHS and *his* war in Iraq... Yep, FEMA has been nuthin' but Bush's slush fund... And I wouldn't mind it as much if he's just come out and say "Screw all of you. I stole this job and if you don't like, screw you too!" But Bush duidn't do this. After 9/11 he pranced around the country like some proud peacock, pumped out his chest and said over and over and to anyopne who would listen, "It's my job to protect the American people." Here's the *gate* part of Katrina*gate*... Bush lied to us... Katriona proved it beyond any shadow of doubt... No, drunk frat boy hadn't done the heavy lifting it takes to be president... Quite the oppoisite... Yeah, rather than running around baosting how good a job he was doing he should have been working... But work has never interested Bush too much... That is perhaps why every business he has tried to run has either failed completely or sold off before Bush could kill it... I began this thread way back last October when I made several arguments that as time has marched on have shown to be correct arguments... In other words, Old Guy, et al, the truth is out there and if I can get it right, so will historians... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:21 PM Bobert: Your hatred is showing up in the form of rhetoric. The Gov of Louisiana was the one bragging: "I believe we are prepared," she said in Jefferson Parish on Aug. 27. "That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about." By Lisa Myers & the NBC Investigative Unit Updated: 12:53 p.m. ET Oct. 11, 2005 Lisa Myers Senior investigative correspondent WASHINGTON, Oct. 8 — It was Gov. Blanco's first big disaster — and less than 48 hours before Katrina hit, she reassured the state. "I believe we are prepared," she said in Jefferson Parish on Aug. 27. "That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about." Story continues below ↓ advertisement Though experts had warned it would take 48 hours to evacuate New Orleans, Blanco did not order a mandatory evacuation that Saturday. "We're going to pray that the impact will soften," she said. Blanco and the mayor waited until Sunday, Aug. 28 — only 20 hours before Katrina came ashore — to order a mandatory evacuation, the first of what disaster experts and Louisiana insiders say were serious mistakes by the governor. "It certainly appeared that there was a lot of indecisiveness exhibited by the governor in the early stages of the disaster," says Louisiana State Democratic Senator Donald Cravins. A key criticism: the governor's slowness in requesting federal troops. She told the president she needed help, but it wasn't until Wednesday, Aug. 31 that she specifically asked for 40,000 troops. That day, in a whispered conversation with her staff caught on camera, the governor appears to second-guess herself. "I really need to call for the military," Blanco tells an aide. "Yes you do, yes you do," is the reply. "And I should have started that in the first call," Blanco adds. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9613133/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:48 PM Yeah, Old Guy, but Blanco has released over 100,000 documents and notes to back up what she was doing before, during and after Katrina... Yer guy, however, is doing his usual of claiming "executive priviledge" to hide anything he thinks might be harmfull... And for the record: For the unmpteenth time, I don't hate George Bush... I hate his policies, his poor work ethic and his lieing... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 05 Sep 06 - 12:22 AM I took a look at a few of those 100,000 pages of documents, not 100,000 documents and found jack shit. Did you take the time to look at them? "And I should have started that in the first call," Blanco adds. The hurricane made landfall 6:10 AM Aug 29th. Blanko did not ask for "everything you've got", A real professional term in itself, until 8:00 PM Aug 29th. The critical time to evacuate was Saturday and Sunday Aug 27th and 28th. If federal help was needed for an evacuation it should have been asked for even before that. So because of the mayor and Governor draging their feet, the evacuation turned into a difficult rescue with many people dying. Because the rescue did not go well, you want to heap all of the blame on GWB and exonerate the local, incompetent government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 05 Sep 06 - 08:19 AM You haven't answered why Bush won't come clean uin relweasing his documents and notes, Old Guy... And fir the record since when is "We need everything you've got" not part of her portfolio of documents... The Wsahington Post disagrees with you in it's article of December 4th, 2005 "Blanco Releases Katrina Records" by Joby Warrick, Spencer S. Hsu and Anne Hull... Tea, these professional journalist reviewed the released doecuments and according to them the sentence that you *claim* was not opart of the portfolio that included that request is in a memo to George Bush from Governor Blanco dated, August 29th... BTW, also in those documents is a complaint by Blanco on Sept. 2nd to the White House complaining that FEMA had not delivered on a promise to have buses to help with evacuation... Now why would Blanco have made a written complaint if FEMA had never made the promise??? Hmmmmmm??? That would have left the Bush apologists a major weakness in Blanco to attack... But they haven't attacked that specific so I can only assume that somewhere there is evidence that FEMA had made the promise... So, Old Guy, eiother you haven't taken time to review all the diocuments or the Bush apologist blog that you have read habve conviently left out some of the more damaging ones... Not too sure which one but I'd guess the later... Yeah, one thing that Bush apologists have become very adept at is leaving out parts of the story... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 05 Sep 06 - 10:02 PM The Gov. asked for 700 busses like they are hanging in bunches on grape vines. FEMA sent 100. Meanwhile where were the busses that belonged to the government down there? And just what documents were asked for and refused? My reading is not of blogs but CNN, NBC and such, even the WAPO when they tell the truth. Here are some documents for you to read about what the local government was up to during the disaster. You sure do like to make apologies for the local government in New Orleans. They only thing they did that you can point out is that they released 100,000 pages of documents that you mischaracterize as 100,000 documents. Take a look at this photo of busses belonging to the city taken on Aug 31 2005. These busses were not flooded and could have been used to evacuate at least some of the people from the Superdome or the convention center. The road was clear between the facilities. But no, "We need everything you've got", sit on your incompetent ass and whine to the federal governmet while your people suffer. Now blame that on GWB. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Barry Finn Date: 05 Sep 06 - 10:23 PM There's not even 50 buses in that picture & do you know what kind of buses they are & the shape they're in, No, but yyou have a picture & who's supposed to dive them? The School bus drivers who are trying to survive themselves? 700 were asked for, what happened? They sure had enough trailers sitting on standby that they left useless. The buck doesn't stop with a mayor or a governor it stops at the top. FEMA was to handle it, it was their baby, it was their job, it was that watch, it's a federal agency, it's the screw up of the federal government & who's in change? So Bozo who's been asleep at the wheel for far to long. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 05 Sep 06 - 11:34 PM The count is around 60 and there is another photo taken later that shows they moved around. That part of the city was not flooded. The evacuation plan for the city included using city owned busses to evacuate residents. It was not done. It was not even attempted. It was left to the Federal governmet by an incompetent local government. The smashed gate to the bus depot on Patterson Street in Algiers Point where Jabar Gibson broke in, took bus 0235, loaded it with evacuees, and drove to Houston. Nagin was arguing with residents and local officals about where to put the trailers. So they sat idle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 06 Sep 06 - 01:14 PM Those busses were used. They were used to evacuate people from Algiers [Nagin's neighborhood] that was not flooded while MSM had reporters wailing about the human deprivation, rapes and murders at the Superdome and Convention center across the river. Yes, those are the missing busses from the photo. Yes, that is a large group of people getting on the busses. Clearly, the busses were being used to evacuate people from Algiers. http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/124259.php |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 06 Sep 06 - 09:26 PM So what, Old Guy... Eve4ry time you take the 1% of the story and blow it up like a big circus clown baloon you get this "Hay6, I got you" attitude... Problem is that in a mamoputh federal failure rather than look at the big, big picure you take yer little 1% and find solist in it... You conviently don't answer the questions and arguments I make but pick yer little !% and defend that turf as it is the entire enchilada... You have done this for going on 800 posts now and have yet to mount any rebuttal other than trying to divert attention away from reality thru yer little puzzles and yer little 1% of reality that you so dearly hold onto as if it's yer life raft... Problem is that you will not answer why Bush decided to gut FEMA and why he went around tellin' folks that everythingwas cvovered and they were protected when he knew they weren't... Gov. Blanco has made offered sufficient documents to show that she indeed expected more from FEMA but that is outside of yer 1% comfore zone... Wake the heck up, Old Guy... The rest of the folks hereare lookin' at the 99% where the real story is... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:13 AM Bobert tries to cover up for the incomptency of the local government by beating his hate Bush drum. Meanwhile in over 800 posts he cannot justify the actions or inactions of Blanco and Nagin. "she indeed expected more from FEMA" Did she get everything she wanted from Santa? "Send me everything you've got" Send me 10,000 busses? I would expect the local government to implement their own evacuation plan. As I have just illustrated 60 +- busses in working order were used to evacuate people from Nagin's unflooded neighborhood of Algiers while people in the Superdome and the Convention Center just across the river, accessable via unflodded streets, were suffering and dying. 60 busses might not have done the whole job but it could have helped the worst cases at least. But Bobert will not comment on that because it does not jive with his hate Bush agenda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:37 PM Fir the umpteeenth time, Old Guy, ****I don't hate George Bush****!!! Is that too difficult for you to understand??? What I hate are his policies, his arrogance, his lies and his world vision... If he weren't a president who is bungling up so many things and just a guy down the street, I'd prolly enjoy sittin' back wid him and a few chilly ones... Pretzels (wink, wink..) for him, of course... Now back to the buses... In the released documents and notes of Gov. Blanco there is a document to the White House complaining that the buses that FEMA had promised hadn't been delivered... Now if the priomise hadn't been masde in the 1st place do you think that, given the criticism that Bush has gotten, that Karl Rove wouldn't have gleefully used this as another of his patented "Ah-hah, gotcha's..." in order to divert attention away from Bush's failures??? I mean, we're dealing with common sense here, Old Guy... This ain't rocket suregy, 'er nuthin'... Perhaps you'd like to explain why else Gov. Blanco wouldn't have registered this complaint with the White House if the proimise of buses hadn't been made??? Yeah, jus' answer that one, will ya'??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 07 Sep 06 - 02:26 PM Maybe the promise was made and not fulfilled. Blanco *said* FEMA promised 500 busses. They asked for 700 and FEMA *only* sent 100. Did the 100 busses do the job? If busses were so critical, why didn't they use their own. More importantly, why didnt they use them to evacuate the poor people with no transportation before the city flooded as per their own evacuation plans? You use things like a alleged unfulfilled promise by FEMA to obfuscate the fact that the first responders did not do their job that they promised the people they would do. Asking for things is a game to government bureaucrats. You want $100,000 so you ask department X for $300,000 and you get $50,000. You actually only needed $25,000 so you have to piss away the extra or you won't get anything the next time if you return it. I am sorry Bobert but for every thing you blame on the GWB administration justifiably, there are more things to blame on the local government justifiably. You just don't want to hear it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 07 Sep 06 - 06:50 PM See, Old Guy, you can't answer a question without asking one... That is proof positive that you are on the defensive here... Let's back up fir a minute and look at why there was a National Response Plan to begin with... In certain catastrophies the local and state governments might be overwhelmed... Let me ask you this question??? Who was going to drive the buses??? The usual school bus drivers who in many parts of the country are moms with kids in school??? Or the recently retired guy??? Where did they live, Old Guy??? See where we are going here, don't ya??? Yeah, here we had a city with major problems and folks trying the best they could to just get the heck out and you expect, all of a sudden, for the bus-driver-factory to just crank out a couple hundred bus drivers that don't have families and kids they are trying to evacuate... This is why we have an organization like FEMA in the 1st place... Just think about it, my friend... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 08 Sep 06 - 12:11 AM Bobert: Seeing as questions make you uneasy because you don't want to answer them for fear of proving you are full of it, I will not ask any more. I will just make charges and not accept anything to the contrary like you do. Maybe that will make you happy. On the Science Channel there was a documentary called Engineering New Orleans. It is on several times this week. Maybe you could watch it and actually learn something if there is any room left in your crowded memory banks. http://science.discovery.com/tvlistings/series.jsp?series=25219&gid=0&channel=SCI For one thing it states that the levees or more accurately flood walls, couldn't have withstood a cat 1 hurricane because they were in a kind of soil that allowed them to flop over very easily. The city was a goner no matter how much money was spent on the levees so that kicks the legs out from under your GWB cut funding and caused the disaster charge. The city is sinking 1" per year while the sea level [and river level] is rising. The very act of building levees keeps the land from building up with silt to match the natural sinking due to decomposition of organic matter and it lets the soil dry out and sink even more. Sooner or later the city will have to be abandoned. "Who was going to drive the buses???" the same people that were driving the busses that were evacuating the people from Algiers. The same people that were going to dive the busses in their evacuation plan. ...C. Ray Nagin Mayor MISSION STATEMENT The Office of Emergency Preparedness is responsible for the response and coordination of those actions needed to protect the lives and property of its citizens from natural or man-made disasters as well as emergency planning for the City of New Orleans... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 08 Sep 06 - 12:24 AM "To call an evacuation on Sunday morning when the storm was going to hit on Monday morning at 6 a.m. is just ... negligence," King said. "If he'd called it better than that he would have saved lives."City had evacuation plan but strayed from strategy By LISE OLSEN Houston Chronicle Cancer patient Earl Robicheaux, his immune system depleted by radical chemotherapy, lay in a hospital bed as Hurricane Katrina bore down on New Orleans. Trying to leave, he thought, seemed suicidal. But after four days in the hospital's reeking darkness, he escaped via a Black Hawk helicopter that landed on the roof of the University Hospital under heavy guard because of the threat of sniper fire. It was not the evacuation plan authorities had envisioned for its sick, its elderly and its poor. As the floodwaters recede, serious questions remain about whether New Orleans and Louisiana officials followed their own plans for evacuating people with no other way out. The mayor's mandatory evacuation order was issued 20 hours before the storm struck the Louisiana coast, less than half the time researchers determined would be needed to get everyone out. City officials had 550 municipal buses and hundreds of additional school buses at their disposal but made no plans to use them to get people out of New Orleans before the storm, said Chester Wilmot, a civil engineering professor at Louisiana State University and an expert in transportation planning, who helped the city put together its evacuation plan. Instead, local buses were used to ferry people from 12 pickup points to poorly supplied "shelters of last resort" in the city. An estimated 50,000 New Orleans households have no access to cars, Wilmot said. State and local plans both called for extra help to be provided in advance to residents with "special needs," though no specific timetable was prepared. But phone lines for people who needed specialized shelters opened at noon Saturday — barely 30 hours before Katrina came ashore in Louisiana. Many people from New Orleans ended up staying home or using a "last resort" special needs shelter state authorities and the city health department set up at the Superdome. Those who made it out of town initially found limited space. The state of Louisiana provided shelter in Baton Rouge and five other cities for a total of about 1,000. In the city of New Orleans alone, more than 100,000 of the city's residents described themselves as disabled in a recent U.S. census. Early mistakes Hospitals were exempted from the mayor's mandatory evacuation order. But at least two public hospitals, loaded with more than 1,000 caregivers and patients, had their generators in their basements, which made them vulnerable in a flood. That violated the state's hurricane plan but had gone uncorrected for years because the hospitals did not have the money to fix the situation, a state university hospital official told the Chronicle. The consequences came to bear in the images hours and days later: Elderly people dying outside shelters and hospitals that were losing power and, finally, their patients. Now, hurricane evacuation experts around the country are asking why New Orleans failed to prepare for the flood scenario from a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. "Everybody knew about it. There's no excuse for not having a plan," said Jay Baker, a Florida State University associate professor who is an expert in hurricane evacuations and is familiar with New Orleans hurricane studies. Tami Frazier, a spokeswoman for Mayor C. Ray Nagin, currently working out of Houston, refused to comment on direct questions this week or to answer several written questions sent via e-mail. She cited the need to focus on rescuing citizens and recovering bodies. Robicheaux, the cancer patient who was trapped in a downtown New Orleans hospital, said he thought the city "decided basically to let it ride." "When you're in a city like New York and there's a big snowstorm, you expect them to have plows. That's not the way it is here. There are no resources to stockpile supplies." Saturday evening, Hurricane Katrina had intensified to Category 4, with the possibility that it could strike land as a killer Category 5 storm. About 8 p.m., Mayor Nagin fielded an unusual personal call at home from Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center, who wanted to be sure Nagin knew what was coming. Still, Nagin waited to issue a mandatory evacuation, apparently because of legal complications, said Frazier. She said the city attorney was unavailable for an interview to explain. But Kris Wartelle, spokeswoman for the attorney general of Louisiana, said state law clearly gives the mayor the authority to "direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from any stricken or threatened area." "They're not confused about it. He had the authority to do it," Wartelle said. The mandatory evacuation order came at 10 a.m Sunday. Former Kemah Mayor Bill King, who has spent years trying to boost funding and organization for hurricanes planning in the Houston-Galveston area, said Nagin's decision to wait to order people out compounded the tragedy. "To call an evacuation on Sunday morning when the storm was going to hit on Monday morning at 6 a.m. is just ... negligence," King said. "If he'd called it better than that he would have saved lives." Special-needs evacuation The Chronicle reviewed Louisiana's Emergency Operations Plan, adopted in 2000. It calls for the establishment of specialized shelters for people with special medical needs. It also recommends that cities use public transportation to evacuate residents if necessary. The city of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan suggested people develop their own way to get out. "The potential exists that New Orleans could be without sufficient supplies to meet the needs of persons with special considerations, and there is significant risk being taken by those individuals who decide to remain in these refuges of last resort," it says. People who called for information on special needs shelters Saturday were directed to sites in Alexandria and in Monroe, La. — cities 218 and 326 miles away. The state scrambled to find 20 ambulances and some specialized vans to pick up fragile residents who needed rides. "There were transportation systems in place to take people out of New Orleans, which was the preferred solution," said Kristen Meyer, a spokeswoman for the Department of Health and Hospitals. But she's not sure how many got out. Some, including Lower 9th Ward resident Lois Rice, a paraplegic, became trapped in their homes when the floodwaters rose. She was rescued after using her air mattress to float into her attic. Florida, by contrast, for two decades has required counties to establish and maintain permanent databases of "special needs citizens," and arrange rides for people with no transportation. The state also has shelters established for myriad medical conditions. Florida emergency officials agree that last-minute planning simply doesn't work. "Unless you planned in advance, it would be a catastrophe," said Guy Daines, a retired Florida emergency manager who is considered an expert in specialized evacuations. In New Orleans, many people with special medical needs ended up at the last resort shelter in the Superdome. New Orleans' own special needs evacuation plan, however, says that shelter is "NOT TO BE INTERPRETED AS A GUARANTEE OF SAFETY, and the City of New Orleans is not assuring anyone protection from harm within the facilities that are being offered or opened for this purpose." "When I saw them loading special needs people into the Superdome the day before the storm, my heart was breaking," said Patti Moss, a Texas nursing professor who has developed a tracking system for such vulnerable citizens here. "They were in the path of the storm." Two of the city's hospitals dedicated to serving the city's poor, University and Charity hospitals, quickly lost power, according to Leslie Capo, a spokesman for the Louisiana State University health sciences department. After days in the dark, it took the National Guard, the U.S. Army and a Black Hawk to rescue Robicheaux. "We had been kind of left on our own and I thought, 'This is a fine thank you,' " he said. Planning for the poor In storm-vulnerable Jefferson Parish and New Orleans, the American Red Cross worked before the storm to promote a "buddy system" to encourage everyone without cars to find rides through churches and other organizations. But in an interview published July 18 in New Orleans City Business, Jefferson Parish hurricane planner Walter Maestri insisted New Orleans needed to do much more for those who didn't have cars. "New Orleans has a significantly larger population without means of transportation, so it's a much bigger problem for the city. ... The answer is very simple — evacuation," he said. As Hurricane Katrina approached Sunday morning, New Orleans officials advertised city buses would be used to pick people up at 12 sites to go to the "last resort" shelters. It's unclear how many buses were used. Planners decided not to use any of the New Orleans school buses for early evacuation, Wilmot said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 08 Sep 06 - 08:39 PM Well, Old Guy, just for starters, there are engineers who disagree with your Discovery Channel... And a lot of them are career engineeres who work for the Army Corpes of Engineers who propsed maintaince budgets prior to Katrina... These budgetes were funded by Bush at 20% or less... Now, this shouldn't be rocket surgery here but anyone with some level of understanding of maintanence programs should suspect that if the guy tells you it's gonna take a hundred bucks to fix somethin' and you give him 17 bucks and tell him to do the best he can with it that somethin' ain't gonna get done right... I don't even think this is questionable... Maybe you do... Maybe the Discovery Channel does but most folks who live in the real world don't... Now, had Bush chosen to fund the requests then we there would cwertainly be a lot less "gate" in Katrinagate... But he didn't... He was perhaps too busy with his politicin' and PR crap about "protecting the American people" to actuallyu "walk the walk"... But plenty of talk, taht much is fir sure... Lastly, if Discovery Channel is sayin' that N.O. wouldn't have withstoof even a Cat 1 storm with full funding of Army Corpes of Engineers then I would expect that they have found some so-called "don't-worry-be-happy" engineers cut from the same cloth of Bush's so-called scientists who think that global warmin' is some kinda political trick being perpetrated against Bush and his boyz... And lastly, Old Guy... I haven't ver backed away from your or anyone elses questions so get off yer high horse on that one... Just quit yer little sophmorish debating terick of answering one question after another with a question of yer own... It really weakens yer positions... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Barry Finn Date: 08 Sep 06 - 09:26 PM Hi Bobert I tried that on repairing my chimney. The bricky said it wuld coast 400 dollars, I gave him $40. When the 1st freeze came I tried to light the fire but the the wood was wet & when I looked up chimney I saw that the inside of the walls above the roof was coated over in ice I called him & he said he did his best but there just was enough left of to buy any mortar & even if there was it wouldn't have covered the cost to lay them it. SO hey says "when the ice thaws watch out for the 1st blow the bricks will probably all come down". This is a lot like Bush's "No Child Left Behind" act. It's the fault of the parents, teachers, principals, the town, the state, the Governor, the Mayor, even Congress who passed it & lastly the kids. But it's NOT Bushes fault when he under cuts it & won't grant the money asked & promised. SINK OR SWIM has, is & will be his continued policy & that's what happened. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 09 Sep 06 - 08:45 AM Yeah, Barry, if it ain't a shiney new war or a campaign donor gettin' greased Bush writes checks like man with no arms... Tell ya what, I'm gettin' real tired of payin' taxes to this guy to waste... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 09 Sep 06 - 11:53 PM Bobert: You are still maneuvering around the fact that the state and local governmnet did not order a mandatory evacuation Saturday morning like they should have and they did not follow their own plan. And if a chimney project takes 10 to 20 years, how much money would take to do it in 5 years?? You can complain I keep going back to the same question but all ya have to do is answer it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 09 Sep 06 - 11:59 PM This looks like is from tha artical you got the 17% number from: "If the Army Corps capabilities for the SELA program had been fully funded, there is no question that Jefferson Parish and New Orleans would be in a much better position to remove the water [after the flooding] on the streets once the pumps start working," says Hunter Johnston, a lobbyist for Johnston and Associates who worked to secure the money. It is too early to tell, however, whether the additional funding would have prevented the levee breaches and overruns that have flooded New Orleans. Scientists, journalists and public officials have been warning for decades that New Orleans could not withstand a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. Even SELA, which was started in the mid-1990s after flooding caused billions in damage, was designed to protect against smaller storms, though planners said it would reduce damages of "larger events." "If you had engineered everything in America for a Category 5 hurricane, you could not have built anything," said Jimmy Hayes, a former Republican congressman from Louisiana, who now lobbies for federal funding. "There is never enough money." According to Michael Zumstein, a Corps official working to drain New Orleans, both of the major levee breaches in New Orleans were caused by more water than the Corps' current plans, even if funded, could handle. "It's just the law of physics, that's all," he said, noting that the system was designed to withhold a slow-moving Category 2 or a fast-moving Category 3 hurricane. Katrina was a Category 4 storm when it hit land Monday morning. He said an unexpected break at the 17th Street Canal occurred 700 feet south of a bridge where the Corps recently completed a troubled construction project. Flooding also occurred on the east side of New Orleans, in the St. Bernard Parish, an area that environmentalists have long warned would be susceptible to flooding because of a poorly designed canal built in the 1960s that joins the Mississippi River to the Gulf of Mexico. Since 1998, local politicians have been demanding that the so-called Mississippi River Gulf Outlet be closed, in part because it was allowing saltwater to destroy marshland, increasing the danger of a storm surge. Both the Clinton and the Bush administrations have been slow to respond to those demands, and earlier this week, the storm surge topped levees, flooding the parish, said Zumstein. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 10 Sep 06 - 08:59 AM Oh contriare, Oldster... First of all, the "gate" in Katrinagate isn't about whether or not a fully funded 20 year program would have or would not have protected NO from a Cat 4 or Cat 5 storm or even if it would have protected NO from an occasional thunderstorm... You keep going back to this same red herring as if it is the Holy Grail but it really has nuthin' to do with the Bush failures... And, in case you have not been keeping up, Katrina has long been demoted to a fast moving Cat 3 storm which, depending on which engineer one happens to have in his corner is something that a fully funded maintenace program might have held back... No one can say beyond a xshodow of doubt one way or another... What we do know, and this is why the "gate" in Katrinagate is: 1. Bush gutted FEMA. 2. Bush gutted the Army Corpes of Engineers maintance budget. 3. Bush ignored his own National Response Plan. 4. Bush ignored Michael Brown's warnings that thwe "big one" was coming. 5. Bush ignored Gov. Blanco's requests for federal help. 6. The Bush administration didn't order federal resources until 36 hours after Katrina left NO. 7. Bush had to be flown over the area just so that he could believe that Katrina wasn't some practical joke that folks were playin' on him. Yeah, Oldster, Bush can run but you can't hide... He absolutely blew it... And now he's been caught... This ain't about Nagin 'cause this was a regional disaster and the National Response Plan orders federal intervention in regional disasters... Bush had plenty of warnings... Historians will get this one right no matter how hard the Bush apologists work at their revisionism... The facts are right here in plain sight... Ain't no burying 'um... Ain't no circumventin' 'um... Ain't no hidin' 'um... In the words of Walter Cronkite, "That's the way it is." Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 10 Sep 06 - 11:41 PM Democrats demanded the formation of DHS. Democrats used GWBs reluctance to form DHS as talking point in their campaign. Democrats then demanded that FEMA be included in DHS, thereby weaking their capabilities. New Orleans and Louisiana Government are rife with corruption. Local Governments mismanaged money for levee maintenence and construction. Mayor Nagin ignored their own evacuation plan. Mayor Nagin called for a mandatory evacuation 20 hours before thew hurricane struck. Eeven after the call for mandatory evacuation he did not evacuate people who had no transportation. Nagin said that the governor had asked for 24 hours to think over a decision when time was a luxury that no one, especially refugees, had. Blanco's call for help (we need averything you have) were not specific and came too late. Bush's reduction in the budget was not what caused the flooding. The very same article that Bobert got his "measly" 17% from stated the leves would have failed even with full funding. "both of the major levee breaches in New Orleans were caused by more water than the Corps' current plans, even if funded, could handle." Poor levee (flood wall) construction was what lead to the breaks and flooding and they could not have withstood a Cat 1 huirricane. The flooding caused people who were not addressed by the late, not as per plan evacuation to die. Bobert uses rhetoric as a crutch for lack of factual content. Bobert refuses to collect information from any "news" source other than the Washington Post. If you point Bobert to something that might expand his horizons, he does not even look. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 10 Sep 06 - 11:50 PM Mr Bobert: If FEMA had not been incorporatd into DHS, would the city have been flooded and would people have died? ___ Y____ N If GWB had not cut the Army Corp Of Engineers budget, would the city have been flooded and would people have died?? ___ Y____ N If Mayor Nagin had called an evacuation on Saturday morning and followed their own evacuation plan to get everybody out, would people have died in the flooding? ___ Y____ N If Blanco had called for help earlier, would help have arrived in time? ___ Y____ N |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Sep 06 - 08:59 AM First of all, Democrats did not "demand" that FEMA be either demoted or gutted... That is what Old Guy wished had happened so that his argument would hold up but that's not true... In other words: False... And what difference does it make if the the DHS was an idea that was pushed by the Dems??? This is another typical red herring that has nuthin' to do with Katrinagate... Oh Lousiana is rife with corruption??? Have you taken a look at the Halliburton/Bectel/Exxon-Mobil/Merck?etc owned Bush administartion??? Makes all the states combines look like a Boy Scout troop... Since when is "send everything you have" being made the day that Katrina was just making landfall, too late??? Date of request: August 29th... Another false Old Guy arguement... Lets see what othefr outright falsehoods there are in Old Guy's list of particulars... A fully maintained levee system couldn't have protected against a Cat 1 storm: Which global-warmin'-ain't-happening engineer has said that, Old Guy??? You must have had to dig real deep to find him or her... Talk about rhetoric!!! Phew, here we are pushing 800 posts and the original positions I put forth from spending a week in Google searching and over a 100 pages of articles from over 20 different sources and here Old Guy thinks it's mje that doesn't have the facts??? Well, all I can say is, "Don't Bogart that joint, my friend.." you are so smokes up that you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on yer old Guy arse... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 11 Sep 06 - 12:22 PM "that's not true... In other words: False. John Kerry campain ad: "John Kerry fought to establish the Department of Homeland Security. George Bush opposed it for almost a year after 9/11." If FEMA had not been incorporatd into DHS, would the city have been flooded and would people have died? ___ Y____ N Brown said that, on the day before the storm hit, he asked Blanco and Maj. Gen. Bennett Landreneau, head of the state's National Guard, what resources they needed. "The response was like, 'Let us find out,' and then I never received specific requests for specific things that needed doing," Brown told The New York Times last week. "Which global-warmin'-ain't-happening engineer has said that, Old Guy??? " Watch the discovery channel documnetary Engineering New Orleans and you will see. Flood walls toppled over from the force of high water. they were built in light clay and should have gone much deeper. In the words of Michael Zumstein, a Corps official, "both of the major levee breaches in New Orleans were caused by more water than the Corps' current plans, EVEN IF FUNDED, could handle." The documentary acknowledged that sea level was rising so it did not deny global warming. And Bobert is the one with the mouldy old stash box, not I. ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:08 PM Click here Bobert and you can hear about the failure of the levees |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 11 Sep 06 - 08:57 PM You made the statement that Dems ***demanded*** that FEMA be demoted, oldster... You ready to admit that you are wrong on this one??? As for what Brown was doing, does old Guy deny that he was trying desperately to get his boss on board in mobilizing resources??? No, Michael Brown was on the phone two days before the hurrican hit landfall tellin' Bush that this one was going to be the "big one" and askin' that Bush take it seriously in terms of a federal response... That was Saturday, the 27th, Old Guy, but Bush was intent on finishin' out his vacation and headin' out to California for some politicing... As for your link to the levee system, I'll read it later since it's probably the same old car4p... You know, some so-called engineer who Fox has found in a bar that disagrees with the rest of the engineering community... The guy probably still believes the earth is flat and that globval warming is a joke but I will read it and get back to you later... Maybe much later since I'm getting packed to head down to North Carolina for 5 or 6 days to help my sister-in-law do some work on a cabin and then play a party this Saturday... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 12 Sep 06 - 01:16 AM That NC Cabin gig sounds like fun. New York Times: Democrats were among the original and leading proponents of a cabinet-level DHS http://frum.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjYxZjI3N2Q1NTc3MWU1Yjk0MjZiZjc1ZWY5MWRjMjI= After 9/11, Democrats demanded that the federal government take over airport security. I'm sure their motives were wholly public-spirited, but it may not have escaped their attention that federalizing airport security would expand the ranks of their supporters in the public-sector unions. Republicans objected, but the Dems prevailed. To prevail, though, the Democrats had to rebut the GOP's best argument: the fear that civil service rules would prevent the government from ever firing an inept screener. No problem!-said the Dems at the time. Obviously people in vital front-line positions like homeland security have to be subject to strict discipline. Six months later, the Dems proposed the creation of a vast new Homeland Security department. Many Republicans doubted the wisdom of regrouping departments rather than reforming them. Surely it matters less whether the Coast Guard reports to the Secretary of the Treasury or the Secretary of Homeland Security than whether it is fit and ready for its new role? But Democrats insisted. The policy case for the new department might be weak, but the political case was overwhelming. The Democrats might be divided over military action in Iraq and a crackdown on terrorist support groups here at home, but they can always unite on the need for another gigantic bureaucracy. And again, the Republicans gave way |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:21 PM Your source is not ***news*** but ***editorial*** comment, Old Guy... That don't cut it... BTW, I use ***news*** sources and can't find any cerdible ***news*** source that supports yours, or your editorial writers, claim that the Dem "demanded" that FEMA either be demoted or gutted... This is the issue here, not airport security or the size of the bureaucracy... Ya' gotta keep up with the facts and the argument, Oldster, and quit this wanderin' off course... ***grin*** Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Barry Finn Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:36 PM Geeze Old Guy, do you get it backwards & jumbled, sometimes. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:52 PM Bobzilla back for more? Did ya miss me? DHS and making FEMA part of DHS was the brainchild of the Democrats. So you are saying FEMA can be put under a brand new agency and shre resources with 22 other agencies with out loosing any effectiveness? Are you saying that FEMA would have been ineffective even if Democrats had not demanded that it me made part of DHS? If that's not the problem, why are Democrats saying to make It a separate agency again? Stupak Calls Again for F.E.M.A. Removal From D.H.S. WASHINGTON – Congressman Bart Stupak (D-Menominee) said the mismanagement and fraud related to Hurricane Katrina cited recently by the U.S. House and Senate are additional examples of why the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) should be removed from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and made into an independent cabinet-level agency. "Hurricane Katrina and her aftermath killed 1,321 people. It's estimated that about 2 million people were displaced and more than $150 billion in damage was caused," Stupak said. "Testimonies from management, witnesses and even staunch supporters of the President are calling it as they see it – the Administration had the information they needed to prevent much of the outcome and failed miserably." In September 2005, immediately following the devastation caused by Katrina and the subsequent mismanaged response, Congressman John Dingell (D-Dearborn) introduced legislation to remove FEMA from under DHS. Stupak signed onto the bill stating that under the proposed legislation disasters, like Hurricane Katrina, would be better managed by an independent agency focused solely on emergency response and assistance. The bill would move FEMA out from under DHS to an independent department of its own where the top executive would have cabinet-level accountability and report directly to the President. The bill would also create two deputy administrators; one would be assigned to man-made disasters and the other assigned to natural disasters. Each would be required to have significant experience related to their positions. Dingell critiqued DHS for "shifting FEMA's focus and funding to terrorism at the expense of natural disaster management." Last month, Stupak toured devastated parts of New Orleans and Southern Mississippi. In his role as Ranking Member of the Energy and Commerce Committee's Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee, a hearing was held in New Orleans on the status of health care since Hurricane Katrina. "Even now, almost six months after Hurricane Katrina there is not a viable health care delivery system in New Orleans where emergency room care means waiting in an ambulance for up to four hours or in the emergency waiting room for nine hours. The health care delivery system in the gulf region remains broken," Stupak said. Stupak continued, "If a picture is worth a thousand words, visiting the devastated area is worth ten thousand words. It's sad to think that some of the deaths could have been avoided with better planning, coordination and notification. We need to separate FEMA from DHS and within the new FEMA we need leaders with specialized experiences with natural disasters not political opportunities." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 18 Sep 06 - 07:40 PM Duhhhhhh, Oldster... I don't think anyone is arguing that FEMA should continue to be a demoted and underfunded program... So what is your point exactly??? Why not go back to tyrying to find a credible ***news*** source that backs up yer argument that the Dems "demanded" that FEMA be demoted and gutted... This is the heart of the issue... And, no, I didn't miss you one bit 'cause between my wife and her sister's family they had me workin' 'round the clock right up to Saturday and then I had to play music at their big party... I'm beat... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 19 Sep 06 - 01:03 AM Bobert: It seems to me that you were claiming that FEMA could have been in corporated into DHS with no problem if it was done right and that was not the problem. I said if that is not the problem, why are Democrats wanting it to be changed back like it was. Which news source do you consider credible and why does it have to come from a news source? They can slant things in different ways. Do you want one that slants it your way? I am going by statements by democrats like: "John Kerry fought to establish the Department of Homeland Security. George Bush opposed it for almost a year after 9/11." Lieberman, Specter, and then-Sen. Bob Graham (D-FL) proposed new legislation on April 11, 2002, to create a cabinet-level Department of National Homeland Security, Joe Lieberman's bill 1449 |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 19 Sep 06 - 01:31 AM Oops 1449 was by Bob Graham. 2452 was Joe Lieberman. S.1449 Title: A bill to establish the National Office for Combatting Terrorism. Sponsor: Sen Graham, Bob [FL] (introduced 9/21/2001) Cosponsors: Sen Bayh, Evan [IN] - 9/21/2001 Sen Collins, Susan M. [ME] - 4/18/2002 Sen Durbin, Richard [IL] - 9/21/2001 Sen Feinstein, Dianne [CA] - 9/21/2001 Sen Mikulski, Barbara A. [MD] - 9/21/2001 Sen Nelson, Bill [FL] - 9/21/2001 Sen Rockefeller, John D., IV [WV] - 9/21/2001 S.2452 Title: A bill to establish the Department of National Homeland Security and the National Office for Combating Terrorism. Sponsor: Sen Lieberman, Joseph I. [CT] (introduced 5/2/2002) Cosponsors Sen Cleland, Max [GA] - 5/17/2002 Sen Durbin, Richard [IL] - 5/7/2002 Sen Graham, Bob [FL] - 5/2/2002 Sen Reid, Harry [NV] - 5/7/2002 Sen Specter, Arlen [PA] - 5/2/2002 |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Barry Finn Date: 19 Sep 06 - 01:36 AM Sen Lieberman's not a dem. never was. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 19 Sep 06 - 08:43 AM No, Oldster, what I have been arguing for almopst a year now is that Bush gutted FEMA, used it as not much more than a slush fund to divert money to the DHS and his war in Iraq... And while he was doing this he was going around the country boasting that it was his job to "protect the American people"... What Katrina showed is that Bush hadn't walked-the-walk... The American people weren't all that protected afterall... Had Katrina not been a natural disaster but a terrorists attack Bush would have been in no better position to "protect the American people" than he was when Katrina hit... Bush was bluffing and praying that nuthing would come along that would expose his weak flank... This might have been excusable had it not been for 9/11 when it became apparent that the federal governemnt needed to be better prepared to handle disasters... But what Katrina showed is that not only was the federal governemnt in no better position to respond to disasters but it was less positioned to do so!!!... Hmmmmmm??? How could this be??? I mean, we were told that 9/11 was a wake up call, weren't we??? From what we saw in the federal response was that Bush had snoozed thru the poast 9/11 period... Now we have millions of right wingers, who probably have no other reason to support Bush other than the tax cuts they enjoy, trying to make Bush's failure's in being prepared for Katrina, a Democrtaic proplem??? I still don't get it, Old Guy... Amd please spare us your ***unsubstantiated opinion*** that the Dems "demanded that FEMA be gutted and demoted"... That dog just don't hunt... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 19 Sep 06 - 08:36 PM No Bobert: You are ignoring the fact that DHS and making FEMA part of DHS is a brainchild of the Democrats. If they had kept their whiny mouiths shut, FEMA would have stayed the same. You try to blame the faisco solely on one person because you are too blinded with hate to see anything anybody else did. Because of your insecurity, you have to have a boogey man to blame. Sure Bush screwed up but it was some screw ups in a series of screw ups by Democrats, Republicans, state and local government, corrupt local officials andcorrupt companies that goes back years and years. You start your research wherever it is most convenient for you and stop it when you have reached you pre planed conclusion. Then the steel doors on your brain slam shut and that is it. Your mind is like a bunker that you can take refuge in while the truth is beating on the door. |
