Folk Against Fascism

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:33 AM

C

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:39 AM

"But throwing eggs is just plain stupid. It is counterproductive"

a waste of eggs as well!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:40 AM

T.t.C., I was being neither smug nor patronising and I apologise if that's how it came across. I shouldn't have started my posting with the word 'sorry'.

You have your opinion and I have mine. Whilst I agree with you about the potentially appalling efffects of the BNP obtaining any form of power, I disagree with you about preventing them from being able to organise or speak.
I have sufficient faith in the intelligence and commonsense of the majority of the British public to believe that they would never vote these Fascists into power.
Their appeal will only ever be to a minority.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

Now, call me naive, but wouldn't it be a good thing at grass-roots level if folk clubs and festivals were a little more welcoming to people playing/singing the traditional folk music of a more diverse range of cultures? I have spent various chunks of my life recording the music of various immigrant/refugee/asylum seeker people in this country, because I love folk music basically. To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest. I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues. The politics is the personal.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM

Paul Banjiman, with respect, your post is very troubling. I have known many people of average or even below average "IQ" who are great contributors to society. Conversely, Adolph Hitler had an IQ higher than Al Gore's. It seems to me that you are implying something that is very troubling.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM

I am delighted at the formation of Folk Against Fascism. And I must say that I was also very cheered to see the odious Nick Griffin and his nazi mate getting their comeuppance yesterday outside Parliament.
They did not look like steely jawed members of the master race as they fled in panic to their waiting car.Well done to the Unite Against Fascism supporters for confronting those vile fascists and no platform for nazis!
ifor

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:21 PM

"To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest"

Speak for yourself, and maybe, just maybe, it's time for some people to take off the blinkers and have a look around!! A good start would be to join the Folk Against Fascism facebook group.
and Folk Against Fascism not being inclusive..Oh come on...yeesh!!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:24 PM

My point is you're not dealing with "average" folks..........

You talking about the Greens? They're the furthest from the average in the set you quote!

The (mis)use of IQ data in this way is ironic in view of the fact that such measures have long been criticised for having racist overtones.

Regards
p.s. More seriously, of course, a little knowledge of the Normal Distribution wouldn't go amiss.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:30 PM

Riflerman: you said "speak for yourself" implying I am not interested in cultural diversity in traditional music. I think if you look at my post, you will see that it is a main, indeed an obesssional interest of mine. I was pointing out that it is not an interest shared by many folk club organisers, in my experience.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:31 PM

Big Mick, I'm implying nothing, merely posting the outcome of what I assume is validated research.

Your suggestion was not to insult the intelligence of average folks..... I was merely posting a clue as to where the BNP leadership aim their messages.

Please don't look for "isms" where they don't exist. As an ex mental health nurse I am fully aware of the value that all sorts of apparently "challenged" & "different" people can bring to society.

I don't think there was anything in my post above that questioned anyone's contribution to society.

For avoidance of doubt I'm not a Green or Lib Dem voter so claim no great I.Q. for myself.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:37 PM

For anyone interested (I don't think it's been posted here yet?), here's a link to the FaF MySpace page

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:38 PM

Personally, I'm not interested in much non-English folk song (apart from the occasional Scottish song and the very occasional Irish or American song - and I do do some contemporary stuff too) not least because if my ability to understand the lyrics is diminished by language matters much of the song is not truly available to me, and also because I deeply regret the lack of interest in traditional English song, but on the occasions that I have seen African or Asian or "influenced by" players in folk song sessions, they have always been very warmly welcomed.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM

Greg Stephens. "Now, call me naive, but wouldn't it be a good thing at grass-roots level if folk clubs and festivals were a little more welcoming to people playing/singing the traditional folk music of a more diverse range of cultures?"

By God, you could sing that if you had an air to it. I don't think the folk revival is quite as precious these days as it once was. But when I got into ethnic music in the early '70s, hardly anybody I knew was even remotely interested. It wasn't that they didn't enjoy listening to the stuff, it wasn't British and the folk revival was about celebrating British folk music. I wonder how many seeds those people sewed in the minds of future BNP leaders.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM

G. Stephens: "I was pointing out that it is not an interest shared by many folk club organisers, in my experience."

The implications of this comment in relation to the core issues of this thread, remind me so much of the charming (and equally stubborn) innocence of The Shire concerning the dangers of Mordor, prior to the Shire's scourging by Saruman.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:57 PM

(Half of my last message went missing in the ether. What I actually said was)
Rifleman: you said "speak for yourself" implying I am not interested in cultural diversity in traditional music. I think if you look at my post, you will see that it is a main, indeed an obsessional interest of mine. I was pointing out that it is not an interest shared by many folk club organisers, in my experience. I think it would make a great statement if places where folkies gather(eg the middle bar at the Anchor in Sidmouth) were a little bit more ethnically integrated, on occasion. Then BNP singingers turning up to infiltrate would get the point. In my own experience, wonderful evenings can happen if white liberal middle-class folkies invite Zimbabwean singers or Kurdish fiddlers to come down the pub and swap songs. I think this a practical and music-orientated way to make a political point and have a thoroughly good time while doing so.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM

I'd make a broad guess that JC & FaF would promote such notions likewise in any campaign stratagies Greg. Oureach of sucj kind,would be especially applicable with immigrant folk musics. Most of whom, ironically, seem to do a rather better job of maintaining their cultural traditions within Britian, than the English in particular have been themselves.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:17 PM

"The problem perhaps with such debates is what you could be debating isnt what they actually think nor stand for but a very much watered down (for public consumption) version of this, the holocaust denial, enforced sterilisation the more dangerous racist agenda will be kept underwraps."


I absolutely agree that this could happen ... if the anti fascist approach is to respond to the BNP's initiative.

On the other hand, if the Anti Fascist groups take the initiative and constantly ask these questions and demand evidence for the BNP's claims then that ensures that the right issues are kept in the spotlight.

The debate is not engaged in to be won in the eyes of its participants, but in the eyes of its observers.

Much as a prosecuting Lawyer does not argue to convince a defendant that he is wrong, but to convince a jury.

The Jury here is the public.

If the BNP are given opportunities over and over again to claim that anti fascists are undemocratic trouble makers it will seriously damage their campaign in the eyes of the majority of people watching from outside; the jury.

The anti fascist groups need to raise awareness of who the BNP really are and get the public interested.

Newspapers sell to the public, and they will print what they think will sell.

If the public are baying for answers at the BNP's heels the press will bay with them.

there is absolutely no room for 'passive' resistance. Resistance to the BNP must be proactive and pre-emptive.

It must also be effective - and shouting abuse or trying to ban them will not work, es[ecially now that they have equal political rights to all the other elected parties.

The effective response is to put them on the defensive.

Ask the difficult questions politely and clearly so they can be heard and understood with no ambiguity in a room full of hecklers.

Ask politely and clearly for evidence of their claims, stressing that without it you will be unable to verify them


Keep it simple, keep it calm and kick them off the moral highground.

Expose them for who they are.

learn their arguments - they all say the same thing - and you won't be rattled by their rhetoric.

Stick to the point - don't be distracted by attempts to change the subject.

Know where the exits are!!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM

Crow Sister: I am sure you are right about strategies and so on, they are, or soon will be,in place. But things like "strategies", in my experience, often just lead to big concerts with self-congratulatory line-ups, statements to the press, grant applications etc etc. All very well. But I was proposing something that individuals should do, street by street, pub by pub, club by club, festival by festival. You know, each person sweeps outside the house, the street will be clean. Don't wait for the council to send a team with a lorry.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM

"I was proposing something that individuals should do, street by street, pub by pub, club by club, festival by festival."

Sure Greg, I follow you. Though in relation to the idea of promoting such 'strategies' of outreach on a collective ground floor level, considering the general low level of current initiative in such undertakings (of which you speak), broader awareness raising arguably has to come before individual clubs, festivals etc. actually begin initiating such action by themselves.

I think awareness raising, including adopting approaches of the very same kind as you are describing, is indeed currently the prime purpose of FaF, thus I suspect we are essentially agreeing?

That all sounded far more complicated than it needed to ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM

Well said Lox :

"The debate is not engaged in to be won in the eyes of its participants, but in the eyes of its observers.

Much as a prosecuting Lawyer does not argue to convince a defendant that he is wrong, but to convince a jury.

The Jury here is the public."

Much as I laughed at the egg throwing, it does seem more use in the end to allow the public at large to hear the rantings of these evil people. Only then will the "jury" be able to judge.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:12 PM

Joan said there would be a web site.
Any news of this yet?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:28 PM

Well, we have a domain, and I understand that the website is under construction as we speak. These things take a bit of time! But it's on its way, I promise. I'll post news as soon as there is some.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM

Riflerman: you said "speak for yourself" implying I am not interested in cultural diversity in traditional music...

I was thinking anyhting do grandiose and pompous. All I WAS thinking about was actually

"maybe, just maybe, it's time for some people to take off the blinkers and have a look around!! A good start would be to join the Folk Against Fascism facebook group"

Did I mention "cultural diversity in traditional music" Nope!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:36 PM

Crow Sister

I think awareness raising, including adopting approaches of the very same kind as you are describing, is indeed currently the prime purpose of FaF

Actually, I don't think it is. I don't think they set out to instruct people on what sort of music they should play or promote.

From the Facebook group -

This group is being created to take a stand against the appropriation of folk culture by the BNP. They want to take our music. We will not let them.

The message I take is that we should play "our" music for the love of the music without fear of being accused of being right wing little Englanders. If we move away from it, we are just handing it over to the BNP without a fight.

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:56 PM

I suggest anyone here with a web site should say something about this. I've added to mine. This is not meant to be gratuitous self-promotion (I expect most of you know what we do anyway), but as an example of a way to help publicise FAF:
www.treewind.co.uk/mha
Comments for further improvement would be welcome.

I didn't link to the BNP's own site - not sure if that's wise or not.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM

Anahata, that's absolutely brilliant.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:08 PM

I provided links to both the myspace and facebook sites on a couple of my websites, that was done yesterday.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:38 PM

I'm not into either myspace or facebook, but this has my wholehearted support. Music, nor any other art form should NEVER be allowed to be used as a platform for the kind of evil distortions put about by filth like the BNP. I look forward to the website coming on line.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Surreysinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:54 PM

>These things take a bit of time!
LOL! 48 hours ... I come back from work to find that the FB group is now over 1000 strong in terms of membership. I call that rather impressive.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Anne Lister
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 05:00 PM

The "cultural diversity" argument is a toughie. Trouble is, our own culture (morris dancing, folk dancing, singing folk songs)has been so much the butt of stupid media comments over the years and we have become so afraid of expressing pride in our own country that this is precisely where the BNP and other fascist groups think of taking a stand.
I want the opportunity to stand up proudly for England (as well as Wales, Scotland and Ireland) without anyone assuming I'm a jingoistic moron. And I've written songs about that and if I found the BNP had attempted to take them on board I would instantly find ways and means to take legal action to stop them.
At WOMEX last year I was appalled to find that the majority of "world music" from the UK sounded like music from other cultures, (because it was - sometimes from people whose heritage was from other cultures but sometimes from musicians who clearly wanted to be from elsewhere)and that there was very little recognition that the UK has its own indigenous cultures. Note the plural.

I think everyone should be proud of their own heritage and background, and that includes us. I don't feel the need to include stories from other cultures when I'm storytelling, especially when the majority of children in our schools don't get exposed to the local heritage at any stage - because we're all trying so hard to be "multicultural" and avoid bias.

So I'm firmly with Folk Against Fascism, very firmly against the BNP and all it stands for (not mad keen on UKIP either, and have never managed to be a Tory) and I don't see a conflict of interests if I stick with performing and studying stories, music, dance and song from these islands. Doesn't make me racist to want to promote my own cultural heritage.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 05:48 PM

Greg,
Have you taken a look at the line ups for various Off The Tracks Festivals, Castle Donington, Derbyshire over the years?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM

My instinct is that the egg throwing was a set-up. During demonstrations of the Vietnam War in the US there were right-wing political operatives acting as rabble-rousers to incite violence.

A little history for some folkies here. The Left-wing movement of the US championed the
folk music collecting, archiving and the development of folklorists and folk song collectors. Pete Seeger spearheaded an approach to folk music which was ultimately the foundation for the commercial folk music revival in the US and abroad as well. Some would call that a political act. Although it involved some politics, it was more of a movement like what is being promoted here.

Actually, politics can't be separated from the arts any more than it can from any other expression or endeavor in life. Even the idea of anti-politics is a political statement.

The BNP is a dangerous right-wing organization that threatens real democracy. Like the
Operation Rescue movement in the US it could be a platform for violence. So far, it may not have crossed the line but it could easily become a so-called "terrorist" platform.

Folk Singer Against Fascism has venerable historical roots here in the US. We had People's Songs, Broadside Magazine, and People's Artists in New York. Paul Robeson was a champion of the political expression of anti-Fascism through song. Woody Guthrie was a songwriter who spent his life writing songs about anti-Fascism. Josh White, Leadbelly, Big Bill Broonzy and Richard Dyer-Benett supported left-wing causes in the early days to speak out against anti-Fascism. There is a strong connection with anti-Fascism in the roots of American folk music which was nurtured by the Left-wing in the Thirties and Forties and onward.

Like Operation Rescue, he BNP might be metaphorically in danger of "yelling fire in a crowded theater" which is an infringement of free speech.

More power to the FAF.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:27 PM

More power to the FAF.

And FAFing about could gain a whole new respectability!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM

I look forward to visiting the Folk Against Fascism website. And I hope that that website will include educational essays such as Frank Hamilton's (Stringsinger's) 10 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM post. Hopefully, readers' comments could be posted in response to an essay, similar to what is done on a number of blogs such as this one.

Here's another suggestion for the content of the FaF website-like that above linked blog, comments/essays/articles, it could have been posted elsewhere before being posted on the FaF website (or the FaF blog) or be cross posted on the FaF site and another site at the same time.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:00 PM

Hey George - When did you become Yorgos?

Whatcher mean- You always was?

I have enough problems with your surname. How come you can't have a good English name like Polakow or Mistry or Li or Abedoye or... :-P

On a more serious note, I do agree with Greg. I have tried my best to get a good mix at Swinton but only been sucessful with Tuup (Ghania), Orleck Dance Troup (Ukraine), Boat Band (Stoke) and some Greek bloke who sings wonderful songs, about anything and everything, in English:-)

The trouble I find though is the difficulty getting good world music at the same sort of deal we do for everyone - Ie - The door and raffle with the occasional subsidy from meagre club funds. I know I have talked to Greg about this before and the trouble is that I realy do not know how to get the music deriving from other cultures into our club. I do hope and pray that eventualy we will get floor singers and 'jobbing' musicians from other traditions in our mix. As has happened in other aspects of life, food being the prime example, surely we will eventualy get all cultures represented in the 'folk scene' (whatever that is). Won't we? After all, I genuinely believe that there is a general acceptance of other cultures to our shores, with the primary execption of those of the BNP persuasion. It is what makes English culture so strange!

As to freedom of speech. Yes, well. As well as the aforementioned crying of fire in a crowded place we should also remember that freedom cannot and should not cross the laws of the land. If that freedom of speech is inciting racial hatred it is already illegal. Anyone who cannot see the difference between freedom of speech and restriction of crime deserves all they get.

Anyway, off to join FaF right now.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:02 PM

And hopefully, there will be a Preview feature for comments-not that I would use it. LOL

Here's the corrected sentence from my post before this one:

"...like that above linked blog, [the policy of that site could be that] comments/essays/articles could have been posted elsewhere before being posted on the FaF website (or the FaF blog) or be cross posted on the FaF site and another site at the same time."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:05 PM

I find it a little sad that the minute I started talking about people being a little more welcoming to a spot of cultural diversity,we get comeback from people saying "What's wrong with sticking up for Brit folk?".As if they were opposites.Actually, the two are perfectly compatible. I referred to my own work in recording refugee/asylum seeker music in England. I don't expect many people to be familiar with what I do, but I can assure anyone that I have also been researching, publishing, promulgating,recording, teaching, performing and generally enthusing over indigenous local English music with considerable vigour since the 60's.And if you don't know my own music, you are probably familiar with people who have learnt tunes and songs off me. I love folk music. That's what I live and breathe.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:14 PM

Thank yopu Frank Hamilton.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: romany man
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM

a simple question the old "what is fascism" i could say i daily face racist remarks cos of me birth race,is that fascism?, I still cant find anywhere to graze my horses with tempory stables? yet people i share the present field with, (non gypsies) were granted grazing rights localy? is that fascism? when i go to my local shop, the staff wander about behind me but not others, is that it, yet how many of you have said the old, bloody pikey comment or bloody gypsies, how many of you have objected to sites being opened for us, perhaps thats it, how many of you would jump to defend your local romanies ? perhaps thats it, so i ask how many of you non romanies know the difference between romanies and non romanies, thats just one part. Who decides what is patriotic and what is fascist, anyone who can deny the holocaust is off thier bloody head,( but then so am i, and i got a certificate) how long will it be before the patriots are classed as fascists, sadly its a thin line in my opinion, what next folk against commies, or against rock and roll , im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism , a much greater number, cant stop it what can we do.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tyke
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:48 PM

All You Fascists

I'm gonna tell you fascists
You may be surprised
The people in this world
Are getting organized
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose

Race hatred cannot stop us
This one thing we know
Your poll tax and Jim Crow
And greed has got to go
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose.

All of you fascists bound to lose:
I said, all of you fascists bound to lose:
Yes sir, all of you fascists bound to lose:
You're bound to lose! You fascists:
Bound to lose!

People of every color
Marching side to side
Marching 'cross these fields
Where a million fascists dies
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose!

I'm going into this battle
And take my union gun
We'll end this world of slavery
Before this battle's won
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose!


Woody Guthrie

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:07 PM

Romany man, all those incidents were cerainly prejudiced, probably racist, they may or may not have been fascist.
   fascism is a political belief in having absolute power to order society as the fascists think fit. Which is normally to do with state control ( certainly not right wing, economically)elimination of other voices, and extermination of those who don't contribute. The word facism comes from the fasces, a bundle of twigs and an axe which was the symbol of power, including punishment and death, of the Roman magistrtates.
facism is not necessarily racist, in monocultures it finds expresion in highlighting some other ( any other) difference. If we were all of the same race, fascists would find other distinctions. Why? because inorder to gain absolute power they must invent an 'other' who is to be feared, whoo must be guarded against, which means the guardians must have full power. ( think Mc Carthy in the 50's and Bush's 'War on terror) This means, in the emergency state, civil liberties must be suspended, never to return.
Facism is an attack on us all, not just the Jews, blacks, communists, islamists who are taking the brunt at any one time.
Wishing you well , Romany Man, just don't call me Gorgoi.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:09 PM

romany man,

i have no problem at all with anyone who camps somewhere they shouldn't be as long as they have done no damage to the site and clean up after themselves.

i am sure that you have often been tarred by the same brush as new age travellers most groups of whom i have ever met or seen i have dispised as troublemakwers, thieves and litterers, who make no effort to look after the site they are on or respect the locals wherever they find themselves.

we have a batteredvan and a poorly second hand caravan and we can arrord the caravan club here in the u.k, so why can't travellers who have big posh vans and posh 4x4 that pull them.

whenever we have stayed off site we have always made sure we spoke to the locals with respect and left no trace that we were ever there,as i am sure you do.

sorry for ranting at you when i know that it is not the romanys' fault but i get very angry at just the mention of the new age types.

typical example,, stainsby folk festival, it is only on a small feild and there are bins everywhere. in the mornings you will see o laod of glass bottles along with the metal lids right beside the bins....this is a cow field where the cows have been know to get the bottle tops stuck in their feet, very environmentlyfrindly i am sure.


oops i did it again i shall go before i get shot.. lol

take care romany man and be careful it is a nasty world we live in   x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:38 PM

greg stephens

I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues.

I'm sorry, Greg, but, speaking for myself, the prime motivation for being involved in a folk club is the music. The music for which I have a particular fondness is the traditional music of the British Isles with a preference for the folk music of England. This is an aesthetic/artistic statement, not a political one. I am more than happy to share my enthusiasm with anyone and everyone, regardless of race, colour or creed.

I do what I can to oppose racism to the point that I have been concerned for my own physical well-being (look through my Mudcat postings) but that is not why I commit my time to helping to run a folk club.

Are you seriously suggesting that folk club organisers should promote music that they don't find interesting just to cock a snook at the BNP?

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:48 PM

I am amazed at the response FAF has received in so brief a time. I have been guilty of getting into some fights with people from the trad folk scene in England. My apologies. Many people have joined ('become friends' on the Myspace site that FAF has). I wish to applaud people like Bryan, Ruth A and George P (who it seems wishes to be called yoghurt for some strange reason) and that takes courage. I posted the following on my own MySpace page:

"To my friends on Myspace:

There is a very important Myspace site I hope you will consider joining. Its name is

Folk Against Fascism

In the UK, there is a very dangerous group of people called the British Nationalist Party. They sleep with the likes of the KKK, Aryan Nations and other hate groups. Please consider giving them your support. The garbage hasn't gone away: it's still out there, and now it's getting elected based on lies, distortions of truth and intimidation. WE are stronger than they are--together. Please, let's show them that.

Bruce"

I hope it helps. I have always admired people with guts, and you folks have plenty of that.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM

Irene (Greek for 'peace'), my tub runneth over. I'll raise a pint to you (a drinking Yorgo). Seriously, thanks and well done.
My name will be reinstated in a few days, after the kerfuffle over MBSGeorge has died down.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:20 PM

"....fascism is not necessarily racist, in monocultures it finds expresion in highlighting some other ( any other) difference. "(Tug the Cox)

Fascism is "Dictatorsh[p of the Capitalists" according to GB Shaw (1922).

Put these two quotes together and a few more things emerge.

Fascism is a phenomenon of Capitalism - not something on its own. It enables Capitalism to operate without the 'trappings' of Democracy, Rights at Work, the Right to Strike, Rights to Protest - things that were RELUCTANTLY permitted to citizens and workers progressively over 150 or so years.

And we all know Western Capitalism is in deep trouble right now. Though the scapegoats picked on by a given Fascist movement may be racian ones, they may not be and one should be particularly aware that a Fascist partiy of today may spotlight its multi ethnic, and socially Liberal spectrum of supporters.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:24 PM

At this time Folk Against Fascism's Facebook page has 1,116 friends while the Folk Against Fascism MySpace page has 168 friends.

This may reflect the fact that Facebook is more popular than MySpace, at least according to this article:

Facebook Overtakes MySpace as Most Popular Social Networking Site
BY LEE BAINS — JAN 27TH 2009 AT 3:35PM

"Undergoing a growth spurt of 127-percent over the course of 2008, Facebook finally overtook social networking giant MySpace by drawing 222 million users to Facebook.com in December. Facebook's first month to beat out MySpace was last April.

Not limited to the social networking arena, Facebook's success is impressive even in the most general category; Facebook.com registered as the Internet's seventh most popular destination in December, trailing only Web giants Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, AOL, Wikipedia and eBay."

http://www.switched.com/2009/01/27/facebook-overtakes-myspace-as-most-popular-social-networking-sit/

**

It should be noted that the Folk Against Fascism (FaF) Facebook page was launched one day before the FaF MySpace page. Maybe one of the reason why so many more folks signed on to the Facebook page rather than the MySpace page is that some people have both a Facebook and a MySpace page. Perhaps their reasoning is that if they sign up with one of these FaF pages, they don't have to sign up for the other. Or maybe the truth of the matter is that there really are more folk social networking though Facebook than through MySpace.

Personally, I like the aesthetics at MySpace better (I'm referring to the color backgrounds, the music sound clips, and the different types of friend photos -the logos, the moving pictures and more). Actually, I don't really use my MySpace page for social networking. MySpace seems to me to be a modern version of the custom of exchanging business cards. I launched my MySpace page to promote my website and to feature some creative videos of children that I find on YouTube. Because I like learning about different types of music and cultures, I purposely search for interesting friends throughout the world. And I admit that I often send friend invites to people and groups mostly based on their colorful, eye catching member photos. I enjoy visiting those friends pages, checking out their music, and learning about their cultures. MySpace is a cultural experience for me.

This has little to do with the topic of the thread except to say that I decided not to think of there being any competition between the number of people who sign up as friends with FaF Facebook and FaF MySpace. Maybe that's because if there were a contest, Facebook would win which means "my side" would lose. But I know that's not the point. It's just that this subject is so heavy duty, that my spirit wants to find some way to lighten up. And this was one way I thought about doing so-until I saw that MySpace was bound to lose. Now I'm pushing the "We're all in this together" slogan. That's why-with all due apologies to Rodney King-I ask "Can Facebook friends and Myspace friends get along?"

And I answer "When it comes to Folks Against Fascism-Absolutely!"

;o)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:13 AM

I am humbled by your remark, Yorgos. Best wishes to you.

Irene

(I don't mind the name, but I ain't getting the operation to go with it.)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 01:32 AM

The music for which I have a particular fondness is the traditional music of the British Isles with a preference for the folk music of England.

I agree entirely, Bryan, I have a particular fondness for English and Scottish Dance music in particular but would pose this question. When did it become English or Scottish and what makes it so? When I listen to some of the dance tunes are there distinct east European influences or did English music influence that of Romania or Hungary? Some of the tunes of the Scottish small pipes sound earily like those played by Bretons in France. Now we have influences from further east and west in pop, classical and folk so is what I am listening to really English anyway? I would give an overwhelming YES - Just as Chicken Tika Masala, French wines and, unfortunately, MacDonalds burgers are part of English cuisine.

Anyroads - back to the point. As club organisers we should not be just promoting music that we find interesting, but that that would interest a wider audience maybe? I don't think Greg is asking us to book acts just to cock a snook. But if we can help derail the BNP while booking acts representing ALL cultures of these isles then it is an added bonus:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM

"Actually, I don't think it is. I don't think they set out to instruct people on what sort of music they should play or promote."

Fair enough Snail, rereading my posts, I was jumping the gun somewhat there. Possibly based on thoughts drawn from prior threads on surrounding issues, and the fact that JC has a foot in a few camps which, I would guess, ideally means that there doesn't have to be any either/or approaches. For my own part, I'd guess that all options of awareness raising and encouraging inclusivity are possibilities. At least I would hope so.