Does Folk Exist?

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 10:14 AM

"Merit has nothing to do with definition"

From the horse's mouth. Are you still insisting definitions and processes don't evolve?

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 10:16 AM

Here goes again
When did I ever insist that definitions and processes didn't evolve - of course they do.
Won't hold my breath
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 10:18 AM

I still maintain that the term Folk Music has more than one meaning; and that there is a pragmatic usage not entirely inconsistent with even the most Orthodox Reading of the 1954 Definition.

As an essentially creative / improvising musician, my music is more informed by folk than it is by say jazz or rock. I sing trad. folk songs to improvised accompaniments on Indo-European folk instruments; I improvise on these instruments using traditional Indo-European rhythms & modalities. I also improvise when I talk using the common English language & structures thereof to spontaneously compose sentences in response to other English speakers. All life in improvisation - be it the fields, on the beach, in the kitchen or in the bedroom. Sun Ra spoke of music being a universal language; and improvising jazz musicians such as Johnny Mbizo Dyani, Don Cherry, Dudu Pukwana, and Ken Hyder spoke of their music in terms of being folk music, rooted in their respective cultures by way of an international awareness arising from the national, which is something Hamish Henderson spoke about. When I write my autobiography it will be called Perverted by Piobaireachd.

But once again I might groove on the objectives of the International Council for Traditional Music (formerly the International Folk Music Council): to further the study, practice, documentation, preservation and dissemination of traditional music, including folk, popular, classical and urban music, and dance of all countries.

Now that, I think, just about covers it!

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 10:59 AM

Spleen: "well-crafted", "tasteful", "workmanlike" bloody pointless, pedestrian, dreary bollocks

glue: If I could account for a single reason to stay out of folk clubs ... it's a fear of hearing Streets of London played on a guitar.

Amen to that - I stayed well away from folk clubs for years because I thought what I'd hear would be either SoL or self-penned SoL wannabes: nice, well-meaning, moderately well-written, moderately tuneful, moderately memorable, extremely dull. And when I did venture into folk clubs I did hear quite a bit of that*, but I also heard some really good singer-songwriter stuff (there is some) and some traditional stuff, which I liked and found I could do myself. Six years later I found my way to a venue where the music is mostly (but not exclusively) traditional, and promptly became the mild-mannered traddie fanatic you see before you now. Pip to world: Folk doesn't have to mean Streets of sodding London! There is another way! If I can save one novice folkie from six years of listening to Ralph McTell songs*, it'll all be worthwhile.

*To be fair, I never actually heard anyone do SoL in that time (although someone did once do quite a good parody).

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Diva
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 11:05 AM

Well it exists for me! Just back from Cullerlie and have spent a weekend listening to and singing with some of the finest singers in Britain and Ireland. Heard everything from Bothy ballads, muckle sangs, self penned wonderment from Adam McNaughton and Con O Driscoll and we won't mention the bawdry in the bothy!!!!!!! Suffice to say I have the first verse of the Nine Auld Hoors O Bythe from Danny Couper.   I think my mammy was a wee bit shocked but not surprised

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Diva
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 11:07 AM

And heard Margaret Spiers sing Bonny Lass o Fyvie to one of the tunes in the Greg Duncan which makes it a different song altogether......

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 11:16 AM

Nine Auld Hoors O Bythe

Now this I want to hear!

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 11:22 AM

Surely the grammar's wrong, shouldn't the question be

'Do Folk Exist?'

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 11:23 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 11:44 AM

The irony of all this of course is that, as many of us have stressed over and over again, the 1954 definition is in need of udating and improving - based on the information which has been gathered since its acceptance.
This is not to say that it can be used as a dustbin to dump anything that you happen to need a convenient label (or venue) for.
This will NOT happen while we continue to retreat into our own particular corners and slug away.
As it stands, flawed as it is, the original definition will remain in place and continue to be documented - warts and all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 12:13 PM

Surely the grammar's wrong, shouldn't the question be...

We've been through that. My original suggestion was Does Folk music exist? - this became Does Folk exist? which makes perfect sense in terms of its usage. Grammatically it's like asking Does Jazz exist?, or Does Piobaireachd exist? or Does Ambient exist?, the answer to which is an unreserved affirmative. However if one asks does Folk exist as a musical genre in the same way that Piobaireachd and Ambient do?, the answer to which is, of course, Yes but only, it would seem as a Academic Antiquarian Category with Severe Qualifications or as a section in your local friendly HMV store. I'm ignoring here the Designated Folk Scene, which, right now, I hope, is a figment of my fevered imagination...

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 06:09 PM

lets get back to something interesting: Notts County.
ground capacity 20300,with a ground that size there is no way that in the long term they can compete with the big boys,however much money is thrown at them,what they will be able to do is buy a new wheel barrow,so they can wheel their pies around the ground without the wheel coming off.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 07:38 PM

But able to beat Forest's latest show ponies with the greatest of ease last Saturday. As you'll know it's not only Doughty's fortune that has seen good money thrown after bad. You still have debts to the local council, millions owed for stands going back years the club have no intention of coughing up, meaning all council tax payers are subsidising your team.
Realising they'll never see the dosh the council's latest scam is try to put both clubs in a new white elephant 'world cup' stadium so they can seize the waterfronts for whatever ego driven champagne junkets they can contrive.

Happily the old balance of dodgy council handshakes has been gone through like a dodgy lamb phaal by our billionaire backers, meaning the artist's waterfront impressions are disappearing from council chamber boardrooms faster than you can wiggle a thumb knickle. Expect men in bad suits to jump off Trent Bridge as Munto erase them from the picture.

Happy days indeed.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 08:32 AM

I reckon they will get promoted this year,they might even make it to the championship,which is great for the club,best of luck Glueman,I hope they do well.
last time they got to the top league was under jimmy sirrell wasnt it.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 09:03 AM

No, Neil Warnock, early nineties.

It'll be an interesting experiment, Premiership clubs have huge debts for interested parties to take on, Man Utd rumoured to be in the region of £1 billion in the red. Our lot were debt free and owned by the fans, although a few got carried away with the ideology and voted against the takeover.
Munto's backers are strongly believed to be the Qatari royal family, meaning Europe and the champions league would be the stuff of small change. Just a few divisions to win meantime. My folkie head baulks at the outrage but the people's game died with Bosman, The Premiership, Sky. Beam me up, Sheikie.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Diva
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 05:57 AM

Spleen Cringe....it is not for the faint hearted! The chorus is coorse in the extememe. But one man's coorse is another man's love song I suppose!

Folk exists because people are happy to turn up at events, be they festivals, singarounds etc and share songs and stories and tunes. Shared experience etc...I know there is a quote somewhre but I'm two years away from the books so someone else will have to supply it.

Stop fretting about the 1954 definition and get out there and sing

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 09:10 AM

Diva,
There are those who are just want to sing and play, those who wish to do to research and those who are happy doing both - all make a contribution and it's not for any of us to dictate what others should be doing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Diva
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:02 AM

It was not meant as a dictatorial statement. I have gone down both the academic route and the just sing route and I am very aware that folk are more than capable of making their own choices.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Kosmo
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:05 AM

my answer to the original question is going to be yes. But everyone is entitled to their opinion - my net opinion which I shall broadcast is that this thread is a bit silly.

Much love

Kosmo

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: agingcynic
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:26 AM

i've been told that folk music is a type of music that many folks simply won't listen to

that's also true of opera, and i'm sure opera exits. so it's likely that folk music exists as well.

i'm new to this site, but appreciate its philosophical depth

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 08:55 AM

i've been told that folk music is a type of music that many folks simply won't listen to / that's also true of opera, and i'm sure opera exits. so it's likely that folk music exists as well.

Folk isn't quite the same as Opera in that it was only perceived to exist by those learned few who defined it as such from their lofty position of would-be erudition. Thus Folk is a theoretical construct founded on the flimsiest of pretexts with much of the evidence being falsified if only to prove a point. This situation is further compounded by those who having convinced themselves that Folk is somehow real, then go on to define it (see 1954 and All That) according to an immovable theology which only dangerous heretics dare question in fear of their very lives. Thus Folk Music is, somewhat perversely, no longer the reserve of The Folk, but of a highly specialised pseudo-academic race of Dementor-like beings who speak of a Holy Mystery known as The Folk Process, which in any case, as they'll tell you, no longer exists. Thus do they suck the very life out of the music, not content until it is all safely gathered in, cut, dried, stamped, indexed and filed away never to be heard by the actual Folk again, who in any case would rather be watching TV.

Meanwhile, out here in the real word, even Operatic Arias are sung as Folk Songs by The Folk. But don't tell the Folk Dementors that or else they'll suck your soul out through your arse.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: glueman
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 01:44 PM

He's not wrong.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 02:53 PM

And rage at the dying of the light.
Sorry about my interrupting the love-in; thought it might have been something interesting - my mistake
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 03:29 PM

Folk isn't quite the same as Opera in that it was only perceived to exist by those learned few who defined it as such from their lofty position of would-be erudition. Thus Folk is a theoretical construct founded on the flimsiest of pretexts with much of the evidence being falsified if only to prove a point.

You enjoy having all those imaginary enemies?

(I just discovered today just how close I've come to dying from this heart condition. I've got no intention whatever of measuring out the rest of my life in a series of Two Minute Hates, and I can't imagine why the fuck you want to).

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 05:49 PM

Enemies? What enemies?? You're right though, Jack - life - all life - is way too short for enemies. Here's wishing us all health, joy & longevity!

Hope all is well.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 06:01 PM

Just play the bloody music, if you can, dance to the music if you can, listen to the music, if you can, because that's all that's really important.

1954? That was the year one of my uncles was born.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Glorishears!

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 06:09 PM

"Thus Folk is a theoretical construct founded on the flimsiest of pretexts with much of the evidence being falsified if only to prove a point."

And speaking of evidence, where is yours for this grand statement?

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 06:13 PM

"This situation is further compounded by those who having convinced themselves that Folk is somehow real, then go on to define it . . . according to an immovable theology which only dangerous heretics dare question in fear of their very lives."

What planet do you live on? Your '1954 as Immovable Theology' is the biggest red herring I've ever come across in my merry ramblings through the Wonderful World of Folk.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 06:15 PM

Sorry, I should have put a smiley face after that.

:-)

;-]

etc.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 06:33 PM

What planet do you live on?

I took up residence on Planet Gong when I became a fully fledged PHP at the age of 13 - though I do take frequent trips to both Saturn and Kobaïa, all of which are about as far from the Wonderful World of Folk as you could wish to get, though I still might go there from time to time, 1954 issues notwithstanding - never did get the hang of time travel!

Have a Cup of Tea! Space is the Place!! Kobaïa Ïss De Hündin!!! Butter and Cheese and All!V

S O'P

PS - :-}

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 07:01 PM

"And speaking of evidence, where is yours for this grand statement?"
Don't bother Michael - this pair don't do evidence.
Sorry to hear of your problems Jack - good luck
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 08:40 PM

Does folk exist? This is a bit like asking, does "dark matter" exist. Without unobservable dark matter, current theory suggests that galaxies have insufficient mass to curl up as tightly as they do - they'd spin out. Similarly, I went to a folk festival last weekend, and although some persons, unnamed, would suggest I did not actually encounter any folk, it must have been present there somewhere, or the festival would not exist.

Last night, I watched a show about the Large Hadron Collider. What a machine! I'm pretty sure its purpose is to demonstrate the existence of the elusive FOLK, the last unobserved music among those predicted by the Standard Model. Now that's 3 billion Euros well spent!

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 08:49 PM

I have a friend who smokes a lot of dope because it eases his medical problems and relaxes him. I decided to ask him the incredibly profound question, "Does Folk Exist?", and see if he could help me out, because I admit that it has me totally baffled.

So I asked him, "What do you think? Does folk exist?"

He stared ahead for awhile. I took several deep breaths and waited. So did he.

Then he spoke!

"Ahhhhhh.................?"

A brief pause.

"Ahhhh...did you say somethin'?"

"I just asked you if folk exists."

(very long pause) (more breathing)

"Ahhh.....you wanna toke?"

"No thanks. Just tell me what you think about if folk exists."

"Folk?"

"Yeah."

(looooong pause)

"Heavy, man. Fucked if I know." (he blew some smoke and we watched it rise to the ceiling where it formed in the shape of an Angel)

"This is some good shit."

I am still no wiser than I was before. Nor is he, come to think of it. ;-)

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 02:53 AM

Be Well Jack. I always appreciate reading your erudite comments onlist. One of my cats is currently on my lap rumbling and clawing it's way through my epidermis, it is apparently very good for the heart.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 04:29 AM

Evidence? Try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuqhEix8lGY

1929 footage of some jolly EFDSS revival types demonstrating English Traditional Dance (including Rapper) in America. Watch out for the Received Pronunciation... Surreal but wonderful!

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 04:40 AM

And where is the faked evidence and dishonest theorizing in that clip?

Are you saying that people with the wrong accent musn't participate in folk dance?

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 05:24 AM

I say you chaps, jolly nice weather for a spot of the old rapper dancing, what?

Still, nice to see the Flappers & Bright Young Things of the 20's weren't just doing the Charleston & jitterbugging. Reminds me of a track on And Now it is So Early (ultra rare LP of Bob & Carole Pegg singing Sydner Carter songs which can download entirely gratis - cover at & all - from HERE) called Up at the House of Cecil Sharp; sung to The Floral Dance, a stripper recalls her days dancing to the autoharp at C# house, whereas now she dances in Soho with nothing but a python on...

Honestly, Jack - watching this just underlines how utterly bogus the whole thing is. When the dancers start disappearing in the sequence beginning 1.45 we move into realms of the truly surreal, but no more surreal than these gay young fellows dancing a dance which even at the time was the traditional reserve of hard working miners embittered from the strike of a few years earlier. The classical violin accompaniment only serves to underline the absurdity. Thus Folk is, in effect, the bourgeois appropriation of Traditional Popular Culture by way of preservation - which is rather like preserving birds by shooting them for the taxidermist. Personally, it makes me want to vomit, but then again I'm pretty much an old school Class War Anarchist at heart, feeling that Folk Music is best defined by the working class people who do it (or not as they wish), not by some higher definition couched in the lingo of the intelligentsia.

A fascinating history though - and stunning cinematography on the part of the cameramen - but methinks my visits to the Wonderful World of Folk are becoming less & less the more I realise just what a pup we've been sold here.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 05:40 AM

Ah yes. But I like pups!

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 06:26 AM

I still haven't seen the clip (this computer can't do YouTube) but what you're describing is a not very competent performace in poor taste. That does not mean the people doing it had hegemonic ambitions.

There are lots of other examples of poor taste in revival performance. The first ones I'd be tempted to put up against the wall are Clancy-Brothers-style performers of Irish music who turned an art form of community celebration and solidarity into a a spectacle of barely sublimated macho thuggery, but really I'm quite content to leave it to history to gently cover them with feminizing veils of dust.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 06:48 AM

Actually the dancing is rather good, which is besides the point. Whatever the case, I urge you, Jack - you really need to see this film! The setting is a winter woodland rather reminiscent of the Golfers story in Dead of Night - strong monochrome contrasts, very stark and atmospheric. I think the clips are un-edited rushes, hence the false starts and re-shooting from different angles and various disappearances. If you've seen Ring AKA Ringu (Hideo Nakata 1998) it has the flavour of Sadako's VHS footage! As already pointed out, 1929 is very early for sound-film - The Marx Brothers would have only just done The Cocoanuts (sic) at the time when all the cameras had to be in wooden boxes because of the noise they made - shooting through glass, you can see the reflections in many of the scenes! The sound here is pretty good too.

There is an innocence here I admit, but one born of a definite social privilege which seems to under-write the Folk Revival at every turn. This is the sort of thing that feeds back into education, making it into Wavlore as Our Own Good English Country Dancing, which is the very last thing it is. It complex for sure, but ultimately rather fascinating, as is this uniquely, and singularly, beautiful document - however so unwitting, or random, that beauty might be.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 06:53 AM

"Folk is, in effect, the bourgeois appropriation of Traditional Popular Culture by way of preservation"

What you are describing there is not 'Folk' but 'Folk Revival' as prescribed by Cecil Sharp (to what extent the more recent revival conforms with your description is debatable). What you call the "higher definition couched in the lingo of the intelligentsia" actually concerned itself precisely with (your words again) "Folk music [as] defined by the working class people who do it".

I had hoped that this thread had finally spluttered its way to oblivion, but it's exhibiting Rasputin-like resilience. How many different ways are there to say the same old things?

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:33 AM

Folk only exists because of The Revival; it's nature and continuity is defined by it, much less the concepts thus engendered. It remains, therefore, largely illusory, unlike Opera which is a self-evident cultural phenomena with a faultless historical provenance. The best we can say about Folk is that it is a contemporary / post-modern re-imagining of traditional material the true nature of which has yet to be fully understood or yet even appreciated. And with all the Folk Dementors currently sweeping around the place it looks unlikely that this will be happening any time soon...

Looking forward to seeing your show at the Fylde anyway!

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:39 AM

"Looking forward to seeing your show at the Fylde anyway!"

It will be brutally Dementorist (or, possibly, Demented).

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 08:08 AM

Believe you me, I get called the King of the Folk Dementors around here... Now there's an idea for a t-shirt!

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 09:51 AM

Or maybe it is demented...

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 11:18 AM

Folksongs are accessible to everyone. They are like national parks, public works, beaches etc.
When a written song is proclaimed as a folk song, chances
are, it isn't. The folk process works against copyright laws that rewards a single claimant for "intellectual property". No one owns a folk song.

It's important to separate the folksong from the folksinger. The folksong emanates from a sub-culture ie:
Appalachian, Blues, work-related groups like cowboys, coal miners, prisoners on chain gangs etc.

A folksong undergoes changes and becomes a "variant".
Maude Irving's "I'll Twine Midst the Ringlets" from England becomes A.P. Carter's "Wildwood Flower" in America.
The folksong changes to adapt to a new environment.

There are songwriters who make "folklike" songs, that is,
songs that are in the style of traditional folk songs.
Tom Paxton, Phil Ochs, Woody Guthrie, Dylan......

When a folklike song surfaces it is often confused with the
authentic folksong. "Over the Rainbow" may yet become a folksong (which would not make Yip Harburg happy) because
it will undergo changes that adapt to new conditions.
(Barbara Allen will find herself walking the highway home instead of a cowpath.)

Rock and Roll is a record company designation and not a folksong one. The labels are often produced after the music is created. Pop music is written for the marketplace. Folk music is preserved for the public trust
or if you like "the Commons", (a term that will not please
Libertarians.)

If a song survives and becomes more significant than its author/composer than it is likely a folksong. If it reflects the values of a cultural subgroup, then it is likely a folksong.

You can't write a song and automatically call it a folksong. If a song falls in the forest and no one
is there to listen, is it a folksong? Nahhh!

The term "folksong" itself is a designated one redefined by
the musical marketplace to sell recordings to a target audience. This doesn't invalidate the folksong origin.

Again, it has to be accessible so that anyone can learn it,
sing it, use it without financial penalties or having to deal with its author/composer/publisher.

A pop songwriter or even a topical songwriter can write a folksong if it becomes 1. changed, 2. survives generations,
3. renounces ownership of intellectual property.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 11:37 AM

Frank, thank you for that concise description/definition of 'what folk is' - a breath of fresh air after all the puffed-up verbiage that has accumulated under this thread (and others like it).

"Folk only exists because of The Revival; it's nature and continuity is defined by it, much less the concepts thus engendered."

Here SO'P demonstrates once again that in all his rambling posts about 'what folk be' he is really only talking about folk music in England. The world is bigger than your backyard, you know.

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 11:42 AM

It may not suit your sensibilities, but real folk song still exists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf51iRBIXG4

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 11:55 AM

It's my emerging conviction that Folk Songs were written by master craftspersons steeped in a creative tradition of Popular Versification which though being long dead to us is a cunning I feel many of the singers had - including several Coppers, the occasional Cox and Larner - and even A L Lloyd and an E MacColl - and most definitely a Mr Kipling and likewise a certain Mr Bellamy, Mr Carthy etc. Others have tried, and failed - Bob Pegg's worthy efforts, likewise those of Dave Cousins, remain obvious parodies as awkwardly ill-at-ease as Robert Burns efforts in this respect. Our very own Ron Baxter has the knack for sure - a mysterious hand-crafted cunning somewhat anomalous in this modern off-the-shelf machine age, but which nevertheless lingers, in pockets, here and there.

An emerging conviction as I say - taking shape as the years pass and certain things occur to me. Whilst I'm an Evolutionist who does not believe in Intelligent Design, I don't hold much with the Folk Process, which presupposes that collectivity takes precedence over the essential idiosyncrasy by which Traditional Song is most effectively manifest and conveyed. Also, I think maybe there just isn't the time to account for the variations as being random consequences of human failings. I detect a creative convention, a genre of such, as vibrantly ingenious as Jazz, or Country, or Pop, or Sit-com writing (the Ballads of our time?). But Keep Away ye Folk Dementors! Swoop not upon my soul for these are just a few ideas, in the offing as it were, open to discussion, and almost certainly off the record...

Subject: RE: Does Folk Exist?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 11:59 AM

This all reminds me of David Hume's remark, on seeing two Edinburgh women in contention across the street from the windows of their respective tenements, that they would never agree, as they were arguing from different premises.

1954 definition? Yes, that's folk.
Bob Dylan? Yes, that too, and Woody Guthrie.
Cowboy yodelling? Yup.
Men in lederhosen and feathers in their hats slapping their thighs? Ja.
Fairport Convention? Well, they use folk, as do Vaughan Williams and Bartok.
Irish sessions? I think so.
Klezmer? Depends how it's done, there might be a clue here.
And lots more.

I think Sweeney's film clip was a bit of a case in point: clearly staged in a studio for the cameras, trying to show the form of English rapper dancing, not its original social context, a bit prissy by modern standards. The original dance probably survived quite a few social contexts.

So there are at least two sides to folk (probably six, otherwise it would't hold water)- the form of the music, and it's social context. Some musics, like the Irish session, have changed their social context radically in living memory, but so seamlessly that few noticed it. Apart from the instruments getting better (and more expensive), the music hasn't changed much.

I suspect that few Blues singers have experienced the chain gang (though some I've heard would certainly have been improved by it), but then relatively few ploughboys had spent seven long years carrying half a ring round the world, and only a few early 19th century Scottish grandmothers had experience of reiving. One of the things that makes it 'folk' is that it can adapt and appeal to new contexts- quite often evolving on the way, as from the high tragic ballad to the playground skipping song.

It's a spectrum, which gives hope to Over The Rainbow's chances of becoming Trad.