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BS: Lets Create a Crater
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Subject: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: jimlad9 Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:05 AM Lets get 4 Cruise missiles with Nuclear warheads and send them to the following co-ordinates. Latt: 35.68 Long:52.32 A 25 Km crater would make Mr Ahm In me Denim Jacket think again |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Rapparee Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:47 AM Let's not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: kendall Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:52 AM We could make a parking lot of the whole middle east. They know it, and they also know that we wont.Just because we can doesn't mean we should. But, if we become desperate and our survival depends on it, all bets are off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Donuel Date: 26 Mar 07 - 10:29 AM Will April 6th suit you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Peace Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:19 AM "Lets get 4 Cruise missiles with Nuclear warheads and send them to the following co-ordinates." That may be the stupidest thing I have ever read on this forum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Peace Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:21 AM If it's a joke, then you're trolling and your humour is screwed up. If you mean it, you are screwed up. Either way, this is one fucked up thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:30 AM There is a huge power shift going on the world today. The power is moving from the west to the east. The East has all the cards so we should fold and go home. Why do we never learn that countries like Iran cannot be defeated by the means at our disposal. Truthfully, I am way past caring what happens to these nations. We have been giving ionto terrorists, blackmailers and bullies, now we are reaping the results. Let us ask ourselves what the hell the west is doing there ? Do we really think they will all become nice little democracies with justice for all, equality for women, freedom of speech, religious and ethnic tolerance. No, they won't, no matter what we do. Lets just leave them to their own devices,. I wish them well but nobody else should die over it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: skipy Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:31 AM If a thread is "fucked up" as you put it, then a nut will not fit on it! Skipy, with engineering head on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: jimlad9 Date: 26 Mar 07 - 02:35 PM Hiya Peace You sound like a load of laughs to me. How much do you charge to haunt a house?. Your friend Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Peace Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:32 PM For your house, nothing. It's already haunted with your own thoughts. That's enough for anyone. Fuck, man, you really need ghost busters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Peace Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:35 PM Fuck, Jimmy, you blithely talk about using nuclear weapons on people and think that is normal? Keriste. This is the second sick thread you've started. Piss on you from now on, asshole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: jimlad9 Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:39 PM Peace Please wash your mouth out with soapy water before your 14th birthday. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Peace Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:54 PM Dear Jim. Eat shit, asshole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Rapparee Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:17 PM Jimmy boy, it is painfully apparent that you don't know diddly-shit about nuclear weapons. They are not just great big firecrackers. Goodbye. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST,Canadienne Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:23 PM jimmy boy it's also painfully apparent you know shit about Peace who has a thousand times more humour and principles than you have braincells. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: skipy Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:44 PM Hi Peace, you sittin' on the fence again, or what? Regards Skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST,worker Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:19 PM Regardless if this is a joke or some latent shizoids idea of political science it exhibits the extreme in bad taste. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:04 AM "We could make a parking lot of the whole middle east." How do you really know they can't do the same back? MAD - Mutual Assured Destruction... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: skipy Date: 27 Mar 07 - 04:14 AM Like it or not, we need to stop them before they can. Skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Mar 07 - 05:16 AM So that's "Do unto others what you fear they might do to you if they thought the way you do, but make sure you get in first"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: skipy Date: 27 Mar 07 - 06:34 AM That's about the size of it, sadly. Skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Bee Date: 27 Mar 07 - 08:06 AM It saddens me to see people actually suggesting using nuclear weapons, creating '25 km. craters', making 'parking lots' of entire regions of the globe so casually, and as if it were a viable solution. Beyond the sheer immorality and horror of mass killing of men, women, children, and destroying entire ecosystems, there's the foolishness of it. Do you think there'd be no consequences? Do you know where the fallout would drift? Who would drink the resulting polluted water? Eat the irradiated crops? Do you think the rest of the world would ever forgive you? Chernobyl was a small nuclear accident, happened in 1986. Over 20 years later, the children for many miles around are still suffering serious health effects (leukemia, kidney diseases, respiratory problems), and there are a number of projects aimed at getting them out of the district for periods of time in order to give them respite from the poisonous environment they must live in. Quite a few of those children stay with Canadian families every summer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Bill D Date: 27 Mar 07 - 11:06 AM ....so....I once had a friend who was 'enamored' of weapons and thoughts of soldiering and harbored memories of age-old fueds and enmities.(he was a genuine Scot...Armstrong clan)... I thought to try to lighten the air with a cute idea for settling conflicts: "Hey!", says I, "Lets just issue soldiers a bag of marshmallows and send 'em out to the battlefield and have them throw at each other! When you have 5 dusty, white spots on you, you're eliminated and have to sit down...the army with the last guy standing is the winner!" He looked at me quizzically for a minute, then nodded thoughtfully. "Yeah", he says, "that's a good idea, but it would never work in the long run. It would go ok until....", (and he grinned evilly).."...some guy like ME would come along and put a rock inside each marshmallow....and off we'd go again!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: skipy Date: 27 Mar 07 - 11:25 AM I'm NOT scaremongering or advocating nuclear conflict, but! try putting a few random words into google, such as:- nuclear attack iran or any simmilar bunch & read what you get. Watch out for April 6! Skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Bee Date: 27 Mar 07 - 11:44 AM Skipy, all I found was a lot of scaremongering, speculation, CIA 'sources'(who the hell would they be, eh?), Iranian and American rabble rousers, and as many dire references to April 6 last year as this year. What is: "Like it or not, we need to stop them before they can. Skipy", if not advocating nuclear conflict, or at least more preemptive attacks on countries which haven't got armies anywhere near your homeland? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: skipy Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:08 PM They are going to nuke Israel as sure as eggs is eggs! As for army in my homeland, oh yes they do! but not in a uniform! Skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Ebbie Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:34 PM Any Israel nuking would be a kama kaze project, and all nations know that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Peace Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:41 PM IMO, the whole Middle East would disappear and with the prevailing winds, I expect Afghanistan, India and Pakistan would receive large amounts of radiation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Wolfgang Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:42 PM Any Israel nuking would be a kama kaze project I agree. Such an attack would most likely be made by a suicide bomber for it would be more difficult to trace the origin. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Peace Date: 27 Mar 07 - 01:04 PM IMO, the origin will not matter. All that will matter is the fact. Israelis do not have the territory to trade for time to ensure they know where the attack originated. If they get hit, they will retaliate with massive response--because they will have nothing to lose. If their aresnal is as large as has been posited--between 100 and 200 nuclear warheads--each of their traditional enemies will receive about 10 missiles. Best people calm things down as opposed to escalate tensions.It's damned near impossible to get toothpaste back in the tube. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Mar 07 - 01:32 PM Peace, I agree, except for your estimate of the number or devices Israel has. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Amos Date: 27 Mar 07 - 01:37 PM The notion of initiating a global nuclear holocaust, which this would be, can only be born out of insanity. The notion that doing so is inevitable is insane. The notion that doing so is desireable in any way shape or form is psychotic, the last creak of a soul about to go down into embers for the last time. It would take a nutball to suggest it. Unfortunately, there are a good number of such about. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Mar 07 - 01:43 PM Amos, The problem with the whole idea of MAD is that it only works when all sides are sane. When any one of those who have the capability to use nuclear weapons is willing to die, and have his own citizens die, to inflict damage upon another country, the system INSURES the use of nuclear weapons by all parties who have the capability. But that seems to be preferable to the prevention of posession of nuclear weapons, such as attempted in Iraq and ( by the UN) in Iran, according to many here. I would far rather see a conventional war than the use of nuclear weapons by any side- the first use will be justification for further use by all sides. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Amos Date: 27 Mar 07 - 01:48 PM I beg to differ. When all sides are sane, mutual destruction does not enter into the discussion; the urge to destroy others is pretty much an insane impulse except when in actual battle for survival, phsyically and immediately. That's my opinion, anyway. YMMD. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Mar 07 - 01:48 PM I seriously doubt that any Muslim government is stupid enough or suicidal enough to fire a nuclear weapon at Israel first, since the Israeli response would be as Peace indicated. However, there is a danger that some suicide attackers would do it...not on behalf of their government, but on behalf of themselves...in which case the Israelis would hit all their traditional enemies in the region anyway. What would happen then would be an utter disaster for Israel, for the Muslims, and for the world. So let's hope it never happens. Preventing it from happening is damned difficult, because all it takes is a handful of determined individuals willing to lose their own lives who can get possession of one contraband nuclear weapon and then figure out how to deliver it to its target and set it off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Mar 07 - 01:52 PM "What would happen then would be an utter disaster for Israel, for the Muslims, and for the world." Agreed- which is why I would hope we endeavor to keep Iran from getting those devices in the first place- the less weapons grade fissile material available the better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: bobad Date: 27 Mar 07 - 01:55 PM "Preventing it from happening is damned difficult, because all it takes is a handful of determined individuals willing to lose their own lives who can get possession of one contraband nuclear weapon and then figure out how to deliver it to its target and set it off." A good reason, IMO, to stop Iran from making nukes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Ebbie Date: 27 Mar 07 - 02:09 PM IMO Iran has a better record of not initiating war against other nations than do a number of its enemies today. So why name Iran? Far more sensible, imo, is to listen to Iran's concerns and take steps to see that they are addressed. An enemy made into a friend has a double effect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Mar 07 - 02:19 PM What if American or Israeli leaders had enough flexibility to propose a meeting and some direct talks with the leaders of Iran in some neutral location? Or in Iran itself? Would that not be a more useful tactic than trying to scare the Iranians into submitting to a list of foreign threats and demands? When you try to scare people, they usually get more defensive and more bellicose than they were before. Direct face-to-face contact between politicians who talk to each other as equal human beings can go a long way toward establishing mutual respect and defusing a crisis. Why has no one even proposed such a meeting? Too proud? Don't want to risk actually finding a solution??? Is the other guy not human enough to even talk to, for heaven's sake? It takes one person to decide to open a dialogue. Just one. Where is that one person right now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST,King David of Israel Date: 27 Mar 07 - 02:50 PM I'm right here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Peace Date: 27 Mar 07 - 02:52 PM Oy! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Mar 07 - 02:52 PM "It takes one person to decide to open a dialogue." Actually, it takes two- the other side must be willing to listen. Otherwise, it is hardly a dialogue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: kendall Date: 27 Mar 07 - 05:52 PM Little Hawk, do you remember what happened to Anwar Sadat? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Mar 07 - 06:17 PM Yeah...good example, kendall. That's kind of what I was implying. There are huge forces in play to prevent people from doing what would always be the most sane and sensible thing to do...to talk a situation over together and find a reasonable compromise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Teribus Date: 28 Mar 07 - 06:11 AM 1) "Any Israel nuking would be a kama kaze project, and all nations know that." - Ebbie, 27 Mar 07 - 12:34 PM 2) "Any Israel nuking would be a kama kaze project I agree. Such an attack would most likely be made by a suicide bomber for it would be more difficult to trace the origin." - Wolfgang. 3) "I seriously doubt that any Muslim government is stupid enough or suicidal enough to fire a nuclear weapon at Israel first, since the Israeli response would be as Peace indicated." - Little Hawk 4) "Israelis do not have the territory to trade for time to ensure they know where the attack originated. If they get hit, they will retaliate with massive response--because they will have nothing to lose. If their aresnal is as large as has been posited--between 100 and 200 nuclear warheads--each of their traditional enemies will receive about 10 missiles." - Peace. In the history of the world there have been hundreds of atmospheric atomic/nuclear weapons tests. There have been two instances of Atomic weapons being used in earnest. The target locations for those weapons were two Japanese cities, at no time subsequent to the attacks of August 1945 have those locations been anything else and today 62 years later they are thriving, bustling cities. So all indications are that for all this nuclear activity the world in general is no worse off. The scenario that terrorists are "given" two, or more, low yield weapons, which are then smuggled into Israel, is I believe a credible potential threat. This threat upgrades itself from being potential to being probable should Iran ever be in a position whereby it can acquire it's own home grown nuclear weapons. That would have to be the Israeli assessment given statements made in public and adoption of worst case scenario. Now pick your targets in Israel, Tel Aviv and Haifa definitiely. The subsequent loss to Israel would be catastrophic. I do not for one minute believe that Israel would just start throwing nuclear weapons about as Peace suggests, in the past when pushed to wire and in the face of tremedous provocation Israel has always been very reticent about taking life (Some on this forum may laugh but it is true, the imbalance in casualty figures comes from the practice of Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah militants to hide and fire from civilian areas to maximise civilian casualties in the event of any retaliatory action being taken by the IDF - such is the regard for the Palestinian people from the likes of Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah). Just taking Tel Aviv and Haifa the percentage loss of population to Israel would be the end. Who would they retaliate against? One word from Russia, or China would dissuade both Israel and the United States of America from doing anything. The middle-east is too important to be allowed to be turned into glass, too important to China, India and the "tiger" economies of the far east - that is where they get their oil from. The Iranians and the terrorists couldn't give a toss about the people killed (Arab or Jew), the terrorists currently use those same people as "human shields" as a Standard Operating Tactic. Gradually the dust would settle. The UN would once again do nothing, hamstrung by permanent members vetoes, and everyone would learn to accept life without Israel, and Mr I'm-in-a-denim-jacket, titular President of Iran could claim that he had a hand in wiping the "stain of Israel" from the Arab World. Eventually whatever was left of the "Palestinian People" would return. The middle-east problem will have been solved and we could all sleep safe in our beds - OR COULD WE?? World wide Islamic Caliphate anyone? Adoption and acceptance of Sharia Law? Consider it carefully remember what happened to Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Wolfgang Date: 28 Mar 07 - 07:05 AM Ebbie and I mean different things I guess. Ebbie's statement Any Israel nuking would be a kama kaze project, and all nations know that has a narrow and a wider meaning. Ebbie has meant (my guess) that no country would dare to attack Israel with nuclear weapons for fear of retaliation. I tend to disagree with this hope. That was the wider meaning. The narrow meaning (of kamikaze) is that the attack would be performed by someone who dies in the attack (a suicide nuclear terrorist). That is the meaning I agree with. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Mar 07 - 07:08 AM The Islamic world already had the making of at least 200 nukes ages ago - an Israeli forged documents to sell 200 nuke triggers to Pakistan - in the infamous 'Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation' days - who knows where they all are now? Hint: none were found in Iraq, that's for damn sure! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Amos Date: 28 Mar 07 - 09:51 AM So all indications are that for all this nuclear activity the world in general is no worse off. GeeeZUS, T, you sure have a blasé perspective on the decimation of human life. Incineration of mothers, infants, ruination of millions of lives... why, it's all water under the bridge, isn't it? Just, how do you say, a handy little precedent? In the end, Teribus, have you no conscience? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Teribus Date: 28 Mar 07 - 10:15 AM The attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki are water under the bridge Amos, simple matter of fact, horrendous as that might be, absolutely nothing I, or anyone else, can do about it. My perspective does however see the potential threat posed by a State like Iran armed with home grown nuclear weapons. Others on this Forum seem to be, not only unworried by such an occurance, but positively all for it - now that is what I would call a blasé approach to the subject of potential loss of human life. Now rather than trying to deflect and divert Amos. What can you see that makes the scenario I described totally unbelieveable? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Bee Date: 28 Mar 07 - 10:30 AM You might seem more concerned, Teribus, if you refrained from childish 'funnies' like "I'm-in-a-jacket", etc. The man's name is Ahmadinejad. "My perspective does however see the potential threat posed by a State like Iran armed with home grown nuclear weapons. Others on this Forum seem to be, not only unworried by such an occurance, but positively all for it - now that is what I would call a blasé approach to the subject of potential loss of human life." - Teribus My perspective is that in recent years the people being killed in great numbers have mostly been citizens of middle eastern countries. I don't much like the Iranian government, but I can certainly see why they might want something on hand to deter... oh, I dunno, maybe the Americans? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Amos Date: 28 Mar 07 - 10:50 AM T: It is not, sad to say, totally unbelievable. I also estimate it is less than probable. If you go around envisioning the worst catastrophes that might come about, and acting on that vision, you end up steering things in that direction. You get what you put your attention on. If you would spend as much energy forwarding the redeeming efforts of human life on planet earth as you do eyeballing the market in catastrophes, you would be building a better planet. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Donuel Date: 28 Mar 07 - 10:57 AM "So all indications are that for all this nuclear activity the world in general is no worse off" unless you take into account the 1000% increase in childhood leukemia and much larger earth effects due to nuclear weapon manufacture, testing and deployment. I have found that average people are far more likely to consider "nuking it all" when they have lost their homes, their family, their love, their hope. While canvassing the people in Love Canal NY I heard people say nuke it all fairly often. They had not only suffered the indignity of being poisoned or having loved ones killed, but also being abandonned by the banks who held the mortgage for their unsellable poisoned homes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: beardedbruce Date: 28 Mar 07 - 11:06 AM Amos, "The notion of initiating a global nuclear holocaust, which this would be, can only be born out of insanity. The notion that doing so is inevitable is insane. The notion that doing so is desireable in any way shape or form is psychotic, the last creak of a soul about to go down into embers for the last time. It would take a nutball to suggest it." There are those of us who feel that the present Liberal policies of NOT enforcing the UN resolutions, with force if needed, in regards to violations of the NPT, and prohibited WMD programs such as Iraq's, is encouraging the use of nuclear weapons by irresponsible nations and groups. So, IMO, YOU have presented a viewpoint that, IMO, is encouraging nuclear war. I suppose you think differently. Your present insistance in believeing that no-one but the US would use nuclear weapons, and thus no-one should take any actions to prevent other nations form illegally obtaining them is not a reflection of human nature, but your own desires. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: beardedbruce Date: 28 Mar 07 - 11:09 AM If you would spend as much energy looking at potential catastrophes, seeking to avoid them, as you do forwarding the redeeming efforts of human life on planet earth, you would be building a better planet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST Date: 28 Mar 07 - 11:27 AM It's true that there have been hundreds of tests of nuclear bombs. And a few hydrogen bombs. The thing is, they were not all tested in the same three day period. When Chernobyl happened, it was a monitoring station near Vancouver that blew the whistle less than 36 hours later. Now, imagine hundreds of Chernobyls all at once. We won't need electricity to see at night. We will all glow in the dark. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST,Peace Date: 28 Mar 07 - 11:27 AM That was my post. No cookie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Amos Date: 28 Mar 07 - 11:38 AM Dear Bruce: First, to the issue. I am all in favor of reducing or eliminating efforts to start up nuclear arms production by any nation. But I would offer that it requires a keen intelligence into how people work and what they respond to. Anyone who has traveled much would know that a Persian will not back down to bullying, but he will do anything for a friend. Anyone with any experience in a kasbah would understand that an Arab will not stand for -- or readily forget -- an affront to his dignity; but treated with the right manners, he can be brought to discuss anything. This is not unusual knowledge; it is pretty much human nature. It also requires a keen sense of what is actually happening, not a wholesale indulgence in panic mongering over the furthest-out worst-case possibilities. Second, as to your puerile inversion of my sentence, I respectfully request that you not do that anymore. Except at recess. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: beardedbruce Date: 28 Mar 07 - 11:48 AM "If you would spend as much energy forwarding the redeeming efforts of human life on planet earth as you do eyeballing the market in catastrophes, you would be building a better planet." Your opinion, which IMO is advocating NOT looking at the consequences of your action, nor at the possibility that humans will act other than as you desire. "If you would spend as much energy looking at potential catastrophes, seeking to avoid them, as you do forwarding the redeeming efforts of human life on planet earth, you would be building a better planet. " My opinion. Please note I did NOT say "more" energy, nor did I say NOT to forward the redeeming efforts of human life. "Second, as to your puerile inversion of my sentence, I respectfully request that you not do that anymore. Except at recess." Since I do not agree with your statement, and feel mine is a better expression of how a reasonable person, aware of human beings as less than gods, should think, I respectfully request that YOU do not tell others how to think. Except at recess. |
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Subject: Who are the losers? From: Donuel Date: 28 Mar 07 - 11:52 AM In my life I have noticed that the fight worth fighting is usually the lost cause. It is typically the liberation of a people from an oppressor or a system of destruction. It takes a loser to fight the lost cause. Bless the losers of this world and support their cause or we shall all of us lose our planet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Amos Date: 28 Mar 07 - 12:01 PM Oh, pshaw. This is all a swapping of opinions. I am simply requesting you write your own damn stuff. You missed my point. I am painfully aware of how far south human nature can go. But it is important to remember, I think, that one of the ways it gets there is by constantly searching for games of hardball and engaging int hem. The difference between "what is the worst thing that could happen" and "what is the best path toward improving the situation" is the difference between chronic antagonistic and combative approaches using force, and energetic positive dialogue. Your subscription to Big Stick policies as the PRIMARY line of relationship with the world is unfruitful. But do not think for a minute that I am unaware of what others can do. I simply think we need to be bloody smart about dealing with real issues, and the people who make them, instead of resorting to annihilation. Every single confrontation we have had, rightly or wrongly, is first a collision of ideas, and only then a collison in arms. What makes the distance between them? One factor is always obstreperous, stubborn, forcefulness. If we had aimed our efforts, for example, at actually dealing with the less-than-100 people who were the actual sources of the 9-11 catastrophe, we would be much richer and probably have been much more effective than we have been. Getting tough is useless if you do it stupidly; the present Administration is living proof of that lesson. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: beardedbruce Date: 28 Mar 07 - 12:16 PM Amos, "The difference between "what is the worst thing that could happen" and "what is the best path toward improving the situation" is the difference between chronic antagonistic and combative approaches using force, and energetic positive dialogue. " I see it as more between "what could happen if people continue to act as they have in the past" and "what would happen if everyone acts just as you want them to." One of the faults of the Bush administration, as well. The "best path toward improving the situation" may not be the one that that has any chance of occuring. Ther best path would have been for Saddam to comply- but given the loud screams by some when he was threatened with having to comply with the UNR, he was encouraged (by those most opposed to war) to actually have one, rather than comply. Thus, the "best path" was removed from possibility by those who would have been happiest had it been followed. "Your subscription to Big Stick policies as the PRIMARY line of relationship with the world is unfruitful." Not as the primary, but as a possibility that should be considered, along with other possibilities, and selected when both needed and justified by the situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Amos Date: 28 Mar 07 - 12:44 PM OK, Mister B. I'm all for a well-thought out backup position, intelligently planned and all that. There are SO many more creative ways to change minds, I tend to think of ALL violence as an extreme failure of imagination. No matter whose. I think it is a confession of extreme inability to manage things to be backed up against such a wall. But I know, historically that it does happen. If you review the history of how it happens, I suspect there are plenty of places where MUCH less effort would have turned things to a much better result. I am not sure what you are referring to about the screams against demands for compliance. As I recall, before the drums of war, the only complaint being voiced by the left wing was that the sanctions against Iraq were resulting in a lot of starvation of children. I think it is understandable to protest wrongful death, especially of children. Sure, you can fob it off by saying it was Saddam's decision and his problem. But that changeth the cruelty of it not a whit, and some folks just aren't cut out for cruelty. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: beardedbruce Date: 28 Mar 07 - 12:50 PM "If you review the history of how it happens, I suspect there are plenty of places where MUCH less effort would have turned things to a much better result." No argument here at all. But in some cases, when dealing with some national leaders, violence is the lowest cost- in lives and effort- method. One cannot rule it out without taking into account the cost, in lives and resources, of failing to use it where it is required. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: kendall Date: 28 Mar 07 - 01:08 PM To attack Israel with WMDs would mean certain retaliation. We all know that, but let's not forget, those suicide bombers WANT to die! How can we lovers of life and freedom deal with that mentality? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Donuel Date: 28 Mar 07 - 01:30 PM Confrontational military action is a possibility that should be considered, along with other possibilities, and selected when both needed and justified by the situation. That is why we have adopted the Nazi model of blitzkrieg invasion, massacres, torture.. of course these things are now shrouded in a language that makes them sound polite such as pre emptive, collateralism or rendition. I have known defense research scientists who tried to find psychological refuge from the damage they knew they inflicted on the planet and mortal flesh. Their self deciet began with changing the words they used in an attempt to change the meaning of their crimes and dispense the horror as mere possibilites. The politicians who conspire to use the weapons of mass destruction that defense contratcors were so kind to sell them use the same polite language for the unspeakable. Certainly there are examples of the current administration refraining from combat in liew of waiting or talking, but for the most part it has been gun diplomacy first last and always. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Donuel Date: 28 Mar 07 - 01:33 PM The winners will be those who do not nuke. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: beardedbruce Date: 28 Mar 07 - 01:36 PM "The winners will be those who do not nuke." Wrong again. In a situation with nuclear weapons being used by both sides, there are no winners- not even the bystanders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Wolfgang Date: 28 Mar 07 - 01:51 PM let's not forget, those suicide bombers WANT to die! How can we lovers of life and freedom deal with that mentality? (Kendall) That's the real problem. "You love life, we love death" is their war cry. Unless one force is far superior, those who are ready to die for their ideas will win. Maybe we have to learn to be ready to die for the idea of freedom. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Mar 07 - 01:52 PM "How can we lovers of life and freedom deal with that mentality?" Everyone loves life and freedom. They love to be alive and do things freely the way they think is the best way and the right way. They want freedom to live in their chosen fashion without outside interference. That is what all disputes end up being about. Now, in the course of such a dispute, certain people become desperate enough or bitter enough or angry enough that they turn to self-sacrificial tactics like suicide attacks. I know from my WWII history reading that there were cases of American and other Allied pilots who deliberately dove their aircraft into enemy ships (or tried to) rather than spending their last few moments trying to bail out or somehow escape. Any nation contains some people who will become impassioned enough under great stress in an armed struggle to take what amounts to a suicidal action. The Japanese are more associated with it, because their culture had established a long tradition of such self-sacrifice, and they did it in an organized way, en masse. Thus, the "kamikaze" missions were launched. The Russians also launched a great many attacks in WWII, massed attacks with infantry, that were essentially kamikaze-like in nature. At Stalingrad, for example, human wave attacks were launched by Russian troops into the face of German machine guns, and half those Russians didn't even have a gun! They were instructed to pick up a gun off a dead man when the opportunity presented itself. They died like flies. What did they do it for? The usual reason: They wanted to be free of domination by foreign forces. They loved their way of life and their freedom to choose their way of life better than they loved being invaded by some foreigners. This is always the case. All people instinctively fight for their accustomed way of life when they perceive that someone else is trying to take it away by force. Thus it is completely illusory, in my opinion, to speak of oneselves as "lovers of life and freedom" as opposed to some group of opponents one has. Everyone loves his life and wants to be free to live it as he chooses, as he is accustomed to. It's when he thinks some foreigner is taking that choice away that he fights. When he takes the fight to the other guy's land, then he is putting the other guy in the same dilemma, and the other guy will react the same way. He'll fight to the bitter end to defeat the foreigner. Why? Because he loves being free to live HIS accustomed way of life. All people love being alive, and being free to be exactly who they are. To not recognize this same impulse in one's bitterest opponents is to totally fail to understand their humanity...in which case you will no doubt find it easy to exterminate them without regret, I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: bobad Date: 28 Mar 07 - 02:30 PM "Everyone loves life and freedom." Another chapter from early Islamic history — serving as a lesson for today's Muslims at war against the West — is the concept of the love of death. This originated at the Battle of Qadisiyya in the year 636, when the commander of the Muslim forces, Khalid ibn Al-Walid, sent an emissary with a message from Caliph Abu Bakr to the Persian commander, Khosru. The message stated: "You [Khosru and his people] should convert to Islam, and then you will be safe, for if you don't, you should know that I have come to you with an army of men that love death, as you love life." This account is recited in today's Muslim sermons, newspapers, and textbooks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:14 PM "Who are these men that are so fond of death?" - The words of an enemy officer in reference to Cyrano and his Gascons, in Cyrano de Bergerac; a question that Cyrano quotes proudly in his latter years. "It is a good day to die." Battle-cry of some of the Plains Indian tribes. "Give me liberty or give me death." You know that one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:19 PM And then I could add this one: "Go ahead - it'll be the end of my troubles and the beginning of yours" - a cousin of my father's, to some thugs who invaded his home and were threatening to shoot him if he wouldn't lie face-down and let them tie his hands behind his back ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:56 PM And the motto of one of the New England states (Vermont?) is...? "Live Free or Die" And who was it who said...? "Give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry, I believe. And then there was the famous American Cold War slogan: "Better dead than red!" Like I said, everyone who fights is under the impression that he is doing it for the same reasons: The lives and liberty of the people who espouse the values that HE has come to believe in. What he's most familiar with in other words. No one has any business saying that his people love life and freedom and somebody else's people don't, because it's total, absolute bullshit to say that. Everyone loves life and freedom. Some people will also make a fetish out of dying gloriously for their cause, but it isn't because they don't love life and freedom! It's because they have convinced themselves that their cause is the only one that really favors life and freedom, and they are willing to die on behalf of their community and their cause...so that others they love may "live in freedom" (as they interpret the word 'freedom'...). Such is the tragedy of human conflict, and ever has been. Not one blow that wasn't supposedly struck for someone's freedom somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST, Eb Date: 28 Mar 07 - 05:34 PM Connecticut, I believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Mar 07 - 06:06 PM Thought it was New Hampshire ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST, Eb Date: 28 Mar 07 - 06:15 PM You're right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Mar 07 - 06:42 PM Finally! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: number 6 Date: 28 Mar 07 - 06:52 PM So what. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Mar 07 - 07:51 PM So I feel validated as a human being and a contributing member of society, thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: number 6 Date: 28 Mar 07 - 08:09 PM Geez ... you don't have to feel that way. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Mar 07 - 08:37 PM "It takes a loser to fight the lost cause." Unless you are one of the 300... then they call you a hero... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Mar 07 - 08:44 PM "The Russians also launched a great many attacks in WWII, massed attacks with infantry, that were essentially kamikaze-like in nature. At Stalingrad, for example, human wave attacks were launched by Russian troops into the face of German machine guns, and half those Russians didn't even have a gun! They were instructed to pick up a gun off a dead man when the opportunity presented itself. They died like flies. What did they do it for? " A good many did it because they didn't want to get shot in the back on Stalin's orders... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Donuel Date: 28 Mar 07 - 08:44 PM good point. Losers are some of my greatest heros. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Mar 07 - 01:28 AM That's true, Foolestroupe. However, there was no lack of desire on the part of most Russian soldiers to fight the Germans and beat them, no matter what it took...and the Russians were short of guns, but not men. As for losers, everyone loves a glorious loser...as long as he's on their side. Look how much they venerate Davy Crockett and his companions for dying at the Alamo in what was really a very unnecessary sacrifice of 180 men defending a hopeless position which didn't need defending in the first place (although they say it bought some time for the main Texan army, and I'm sure it did...plus it gave them a rallying cry). When I was a kid I was CRAZY about Davy Crockett. Of course, who wasn't at the time? ;-) (matter of fact, even the Mexicans liked him back then when it all happened) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: polaitaly Date: 29 Mar 07 - 01:44 AM "Viva la muerte!" was the battle cry of the followers of Francisco Franco, in the Spanish Civil war. They were not muslim at all, but very, VERY christian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: jimlad9 Date: 29 Mar 07 - 05:36 AM Dear Fellow Catters I wish I had not started this thread. I did not intend to stir up a 'Hornets Nest' and upset so many good peace loving people. I am sorry that it caused Mr/Ms 'Tourettes Syndrome' Peace such grief,but I am sure if he asks the nice nurse on her next round she will increase His/Hers medication. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 29 Mar 07 - 05:46 AM Jim, Are you trying to tell us now that you are sorry to be a "Crater Creator"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: jimlad9 Date: 29 Mar 07 - 06:05 AM Foolestroupe Oh Boy ! am I sorry, I don't know where the place is that I put the co-ordinates for but my finger must have slipped. I meant to "craterize" a pub in Bacup where I got a bad pint one night. The following day the "world dropped out of my bottom".As they say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Teribus Date: 29 Mar 07 - 07:31 AM Bee - 28 Mar 07 - 10:30 AM Quite right Bee, the man's name is Ahmadinejad. Any prat who stands in front of an international gathering and advocates with all sincerity the "wiping from the map" of another country, deserves to be called far harsher and less "childish" names than "I'm-in-a-denim-jacket" or "I-made-a-denim-jacket". As to your perspective, Bee, it would seem slightly foggy and lacking in some important details: - In recent years, depending upon how you define "recent", the people who have been killed in great numbers have not mostly been citizens of middle eastern countries, but Rwandans, the people of Darfur, Albanian Kosovans and Chechens. - You also forget to add that given your perspective those people from the middle-east who have been dying in great numbers were being killed by people from the middle-east. - I don't much like the Iranian government either Bee, they have nakedly threatened other countries, and they are the greatest state sponsor of international terrorism in the world. As a whole they are a deeply troubling and potentially dangerous presence in the region, nothing about them indicates peaceful intent, or trustworthyness. In short, I regard them as being duplicitous lying bastards that I would certainly not advise anyone to turn their backs on. - The Americans on the other hand have not threatened Iran in any way shape or form. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Wolfgang Date: 29 Mar 07 - 07:48 AM But you must admit, Bee, that childish 'funnies' are fun to those who dislike a person and/or his politics. Why else would we have had so far seven threads with the word "shrub" instead of "Bush" in the titles and not only in individual posts. As long as for instance "BuShites" is used in this place without an admonishing comment, we are in no urgent need for comments when names of other politicians are disfigured as well. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Bee Date: 29 Mar 07 - 08:29 AM Wolfgang, I think that's childish as well, although 'Bushites' would seemingly indicate 'followers of Bush', and so a legitimate use. Teribus' 'I'm in a denim jacket', etc., is so far removed from the man's actual name that it isn't even recognizable, which is why I found it even more annoying than such things as 'Bu-Shites'. Personally, I think sticking cutesy names on powerful and sometimes evil people is a mistake, as it tends to make them seem cartoonish, and thus less powerful, which may be a small comfort to some, but to some extent masks the ugly reality. That's just my opinion. YMMV. Teribus, you are correct; I should have stipulated 'in the Middle East'. I am aware that many of those deaths have been caused by other Mid-Easterners. But if you think the US does not threaten Iran, you are deluded. The US may not have directly declared war, but they rumble menacingly close, as you well know, and as Iran well knows. The bellicosity of the US government is famous; it is obvious that they will pour more of their resources into war machines than into any other enterprise, even at the risk of destroying themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Peace Date: 29 Mar 07 - 11:43 AM That's not Tourette's, jimlad9. Plain and simple, I think you are an asshole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Wolfgang Date: 29 Mar 07 - 12:04 PM Bee, I don't really mind the use of "Bushites" though the normal English coinage would be "Bushists". I mind reading "BuShists". And yes, all that is childish. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Mar 07 - 01:04 PM Teribus "- I don't much like the Iranian government either Bee, they have nakedly threatened other countries, and they are the greatest state sponsor of international terrorism in the world. As a whole they are a deeply troubling and potentially dangerous presence in the region, nothing about them indicates peaceful intent, or trustworthyness. In short, I regard them as being duplicitous lying bastards that I would certainly not advise anyone to turn their backs on." Heh! Yeah, right...now replace one word, "Iranian" and add another phrase "and attacked"...any you have: - I don't much like the American government either. They have nakedly threatened and attacked other countries, and they are the greatest state sponsor of international terrorism in the world. As a whole they are a deeply troubling and potentially dangerous presence in the region, nothing about them indicates peaceful intent, or trustworthyness. In short, I regard them as being duplicitous lying bastards that I would certainly not advise anyone to turn their backs on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: GUEST,meself Date: 29 Mar 07 - 01:19 PM It's ironic that the Iranian president is being criticized for calling for Israel to be wiped off the map in a thread that commenced with a call for Iran to be made into a crater. And in a forum that has at least a couple of "humorous" songs on the go that are all about dropping nuclear bombs on Iran. Not too long ago, an American general made a bit of an apology for telling a Pakastani statesman that Pakistan would be bombed back into the Stone Age if they would not support the American and allied attack on Afghanistan. Gitcher program here! You can't tell the evil fanatics who love to kill from the peace-loving world-saviours withoucher program! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 29 Mar 07 - 06:46 PM "sticking cutesy names on powerful and sometimes evil people is a mistake, as it tends to make them seem cartoonish, and thus less powerful," Actually, for a long time many have said that the one thing power hungry dictators CANNOT cope with is ridicule. It IS the best weapon against them. I dare say you could find the attribution of the quotes if you want. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: robomatic Date: 22 Apr 07 - 12:35 AM I agree that the title of this thread is somewhat extreme but I don't take it seriously (whether or not the originator did). I think that Teribus' statement of 28 Mar 07 - 06:11 AM was an excellent statement of the situation, and the attacks on Teribus afterwards were cheap shots which did not accurately reflect the argument. We are in a situation where the nuclear cat is out of the bag and no one (except, to an extent, the United States) has made an attempt to put it in a cage. The day could come where some sort of mini nuke or dirty bomb could be used in a terror plot. We've already seen Arab on Kurd and Arab on Arab use of chemical weapons including chlorine bombs just in the past few weeks. I think there are more peaceful ways of dealing with Iran, but it is undeniable that Iran is under the Political authority of people who are the equivalent of Nazis. They administer justice on their own people with personal terror squads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Slag Date: 22 Apr 07 - 03:49 AM Hmmmmm. Peace, my friend, how are you doing? You've got to lighten up and ignore the chum. I agree with your sentiment but not your expressions! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Leadfingers Date: 22 Apr 07 - 05:56 AM Nearest I ever got to a Crater was the one in Aden , that was VERY Out Of Bounds when I was being shot at out there ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Leadfingers Date: 22 Apr 07 - 05:57 AM 100 !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Peace Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:43 PM CLONES: Delete the content of the post BUT LEAVE THE SENDER'S NAME. JUST TRY IT! It can't hurt. This is the third time I have seen this same thread get hit. Maybe there's something about deleting it that let's the spam 'machine' know to hit it again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Lets Create a Crater From: Donuel Date: 29 Apr 07 - 06:33 PM I saw a crater being formed on the moon back in 1975. I know exactly where to look for it if I had the newest high def scans from the most recent pictures of the moon just behind the horizon at the 10:30 position. First a large explosion made a fast moving halo from a central point, followed by a second explosion that was only 20% as large as the first. It took less 3.2 seconds for both ejecta explosions to erupt and fade. It was higly illuminated since it was just prior to a full lunar eclipse in May.
-Joe Offer-
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