EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 01:52 PM

"trad free zone"

Absolutely not.
It's the sodding 'f'-word that's the problem.
It's now totally meaningless in its application to any old twee MOR crap produced by anyone who once lived next door to someone whose second cousin owned an acoustic instrument. Or an Aran jumper. Or a tankard. Or a new-age pebble.

Bin 'f*lk'. Trad is good. 'Young things' say so. Look at Shooting Roots.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Susan B
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 01:42 PM

But, Felicity, those of us who are a bit unhappy about this are not saying that "EFDSS can only be allowed to do/show/support 'old' stuff". My concern is that having a "folk free zone" re-inforces and perpetuates the notion that "folk" is anything old and boring that the young things would not be interested in. I, for one, would hate any definition of Folk to exclude the "now".

Perhaps a "trad free zone" event would express it better?

Susan B

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Felicity Greenland
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 12:46 PM

I think it is excellent to provide this zone. Lots of people are interested in making their own music and in taking such opportunities to share that experience. This is a salient aspect of 'folk music'. Zone participants, if they don't already, may realise by such events that they are part of a great big unpredictable exciting continuum - a (dare I say it) tradition.
You can't expect people to appreciate the real nature of folk or traditional music/song if you say 'well, in folk clubs it's OK to sing a 19th century incest ballad or a 1970s revival song but it's not OK to express your own experience of life now'.
In the end only the best songs endure, so I think it's counterproductive to say EFDSS can only be allowed to do/show/support 'old' stuff. The old stuff is, after all, the wheat remaining from the chaff at any given time.
'Now' is at least as important as 'the past' in the continuity of any art form or community activity.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,avrosimones
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:55 AM

"Quite what the EFDSS is doing hosting a session billed as a folk free zone is beyond me"

I can see why there are doing this - it's obviously to get some people through the door who would ordinarily never go into C# house and maybe get them interested in folk music. As friendly as all the people are at the folk club, it is pretty intimidating for a young person to go in there and play.

At least they're trying to get new folks in the door -even though it might be a bit bizarre to be labeled a 'folk free zone'.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:40 AM

Yes, the Gloworms Annual Ceilidh!
I was so busy banging on about the Faustus one that I forgot to mention this.
Sorry Gloworms.
Yes, so many reasons to go to C# and get your copy of Running Joak.
The old place is even geting blogged about nowadays.
It's only 35 years out of date when it claims I ran the 'restaurant'.
And we don't talk about that one occasion when I was let loose in the canteen. Do we?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: johnadams
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:12 AM

There's no policy attached to this - and certainly no conspiracy.

As the nice lady from Ambridge said, it's just young Sam Lee trying out an idea.

Should be a good day out and I'm specially glad to have the Gloworms playing the evening dance. The dance energy amongst their young audience has to be seen to be believed.

Saturday November 10th

EFDSS 75th Anniversary National Gathering and AGM

Booking Office opens for Ticket Sales on September 17th

PROGRAMME

10.00 - 10.45
Dance workshop for children with Jane Pfaff and Jeremy Monson
Free of charge

11.00 - 12.30
Folkopedia non virtual meeting

11.00 - 12.00
Appalachian Running Set with Tony Foxworthy. Music by Brian and Jannette Stewart and Michael Blanford
Free for Camden residents and members

11.00 - 1.00
DVD show: The Return of Albert, Anniversary Awards Evening, Royal Albert Hall performances and other archival films
Free of charge

1.00 - 2.00
Young members' forum: FutureofFolk@EFDSS
Free of charge

2.00 - 3.30
AGM for members and invited guests

2.15 - 3.15
Children's workshop with Jane Pfaff and Jeremy Monson
Free of charge

4.00 - 4.30
Lecture by Mike Heaney: Finding Treasure in the Archives
Free of charge

4.45 - 7.45
National Gathering with the Monday Musicians' Band & MC Andrew Swaine
Gold Badge presentation to Mike Heaney
Spots from Adlington Folk Dancers: C# Minors: Eynsham Morris Men: Scarborough Sword Dancers with Cyril Swales: Stone Monkey: Hazel and Emily Askew.
£8.00. £5.00 for unwaged and holders of student ID

5.00 - 6.00
Folk Free Zone: an open mike session for young singers and songwriters

7.30 - 8.30
Rattle on the Stovepipe Evening Concert
with Dave Arthur, Pete Cooper and Dan Stewart, Peta Webb and Ken Hall
£5.00. £3.00 for unwaged and holders of student ID

8.30 onwards
Open sing, say and play session led by Dave Arthur, Pete Cooper and Dan Stewart with Peta Webb and Ken Hall, members of Stone Monkey and Eynsham Morris. Bring your instruments and voices
Free of charge

8.30 - 11.30
The 6th Gloworms Annual Ceilidh with caller Cat Kelly.
Every year the Gloworms organise a ceilidh to get together with all the people they've played for and danced with during the year.
This year they're at Cecil Sharp House, and a great night it promises to be. .
There will also be some tasty extras including a spot from Stone Monkey
£8.00. £5.00 for unwaged and holders of student ID
Presented in association with the EFDSS 75th Anniversary Celebrations and National Gathering

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 11:26 PM

I didn't read all the posts and someone might have said this already, but perhaps they want to keep rap music and Gregorian chants out of the folk stages and give people a place to come to do other stuff because othewise they would do it where people were not as interested. mg

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:44 PM

"Quite what the EFDSS is doing hosting a session billed as a folk free zone is beyond me"

it was this bit I was replying to, nothing else...

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:39 PM

Oi, I didn't say that. The button did and I was quoting him.
And I said Swadding Songs were hiring the hall from the EFDSS.
For money.
Don't go overboard with assumptions before comprehending the attribution.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:31 PM

"Quite what the EFDSS is doing hosting a session billed as a folk free zone is beyond me"

ummmm....sounds like the EFDDS is being a bit more open-minded in their old age. God Bless'm

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:24 PM

Just noticed the button said this way up at the top:

Quite what the EFDSS is doing hosting a session billed as a folk free zone is beyond me

Can't see why.
For the past several years Peter Paphides and that bloke Bob out of St Etienne has run Swaddling Songs at C# and you don't get much more 'wyrd' or 'acid' or (insert prefix of choice) than that.

I suppose they pay the Kennedy Hall hire fee and their money is as good as anybody's.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:21 PM

SoH title...ummmm...sorry is this some sort of code?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:10 PM

What is this? Quote Unquote (BBC R4 literary quiz)?

OK, I do (sadly) know the answer.
These were replies to madlizziecornish posting under a variety of aliases.
As the original posting no longer survive, they may be a little difficult for a SoH title to comprehend but I think they are a fairly clear indication of their irrelevancy to the topic.
Her MySpace blog remains non-updated and hopefully will remain so.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 01:55 PM

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Diane Easby - PM
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:21 AM

Lizzie Cornish is not, unfortunately, the only knocker who's never been near C# House, still less have the faintest notion of what the EFDSS is trying to achieve, who is unable to draw a distinction between 'an ability to compose and play in the tradition' and a soft rock snigger-snogger.

Doesn't prevent her from placing foot firmly in capacious mouth though.




Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Diane Easby - PM
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:53 AM

"Dear" lizzie/ho ho/dear les,

Do piss off and update your MySpace blog.
Private Eye is waiting for the copy

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 01:33 PM

Wasps anyone?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 01:00 PM

Who has 'personally attacked' you?
I see no indication of your presence in he thread until you seemed to require an explanation of eceilidh.
This I provided with a link.
On Friday 18th there is to be one (as previously mentioned) with Faustus.
As the subject of the thread is the EFDSS 75th and this event is part of it, of what, precisely, do you complain?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 12:57 PM

Oi! Lay off, Countrylife. I don't do personal attacks, I was OBJECTING to them.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 12:40 PM

"on the subject of the thread rather than on the subject of personal attacks?"

stay on the subject of the thread fer goodness sakes, instead of indulging in personal attacks, every thread I've entered today seems to contain at least one personal attack...NOW LAY OFF!!!!

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 11:28 AM

Wrong thread.
There was an extremely silly thread a while ago from an orthographically-challenged person who was uncertain how to spell it.

eceilidh: The vertical expression of the horizontal intent.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 11:21 AM

"'eceilidh ' ??"

ceilidhs for dyslexics? *LOL*

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:46 AM

"is the way to attract that AUDIENCE", my second par should have read.

As you were.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:45 AM

Didn't see Ruth's post before putting mine up. Ignore me (apart from the bit about the two Jameses).

Nigel

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:43 AM

Can I add my tuppence worth, on the subject of the thread rather than on the subject of personal attacks?

I doubt C# House would attract many acoustic rock singer songwriters, just because of what it is and also because there are thousands of venues up and down the country where they can ply their trade - and they do! Here in Manchester you can't move for them. I would also see the term itself as a description rather than a put down - even though with a few very honourable exceptions most of those I've had the mispleasure to listen to have been pretty dreary.

C# House MAY attract some young songwriters who are rooted to some extent in tradition. There are no guarantees, obviously. The term folk free zone is a bit daft, though, for a folk event at a folk venue - may free-folk zone or even freak-folk zone would be more suitable and much more fun!

I'm not really detecting any animosity here to people writing original material (as long as it's any good) but I am detecting a lot of animosity to those people who don't like listening to maudlin, self indulgent 'sensitive singer songwriter' stuff. Personally, I blame that James friggin' Taylor. Or James Bl*nt.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:43 AM

Right...

As far as I know, this event, targeting young people, was dreamt up by Sam Lee. Sam is a great young singer who is currently employed by EFDSS (that's right, SINGER. If that tells you that the balance beteween song and dance is being redressed, good. And you only have to read any recent copy of the magazine to understand this as well).

Sam runs a folk club that targets young people: The Magpie's Nest, in Islington. He's had huge success with that, and if he thinks that a bit of gentle humour is the way to attract that, I for one am willing to trust him, because he KNOWS that audience.

That's aLL it is, folks: a bit of irony. And as has been pointed out, it is ONE event in a whole day of activity. AND there is an asterisk following the event's title, which reads: "not enforced". Geddit?


Blimey.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:11 AM

No, no you are getting it wrong with respect to DE. Just remember Garry and the sheep in 2 pints of lager and a packet of crisps

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:57 AM

Now it is relatively inexpensive to produce CD's festival bookers get dozens of records from ARSS.

They mostly sing their teenage diaries.

No wonder she knocked them. If the EFDSS wants to give them an hour great. Doesn't make their teenage diaries set to music any better.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:53 AM

"Dear" lizzie/ho ho/dear les,

Do piss off and update your MySpace blog.
Private Eye is waiting for the copy.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:31 AM

As a long time member of the Society I am in a position to warn people of the dangers of dissing an organisation with links to Sicily.

Our armed wing has strategies for removing those who oppose or mock the organisation that has crossed swords as its symbol. One strategy is to offer odd looking events. This is simply to provoke the kind of response we see above - people out themselves and we know where they live.

Their are people who have mocked us before and they have been "visited", they are now so nervous they have to tie their tankards to their clothing, adopt strange disguises involving beards and waist-coates and shiver and sweat at the sound of morris bells.

And, let me state the obvious - don't ever, ever misunderstand or underestimate the role and the work of Triple Agent Easby.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:21 AM

Lizzie Cornish is not, unfortunately, the only knocker who's never been near C# House, still less have the faintest notion of what the EFDSS is trying to achieve, who is unable to draw a distinction between 'an ability to compose and play in the tradition' and a soft rock snigger-snogger.

Doesn't prevent her from placing foot firmly in capacious mouth though.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 03:52 AM

If you are that concerned about the way that EFDSS is going, why not apply to be their new Chief Executive? The job description was included in the most recent magazine.

LTS

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Mo the caller
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 03:29 AM

I saw you Brian (along with a few others).

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 05:23 PM

Folkiedave

How many of the people who have contributed to this thread have read the magazine recently? It has changed beyond all recognition in the past few years and certainly now it is in full colour. This latest issue is the best I have seen in many years and I made a point of telling the Editor.

..and it's got a picture of me in the centre pages (along with a few other people). What more could ask?

(Sorry, but it's (probably the most fame I'll ever get.)

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 05:17 PM

How many of the people who have contributed to this thread have read the magazine recently? It has changed beyond all recognition in the past few years and certainly now it is in full colour. This latest issue is the best I have seen in many years and I made a point of telling the Editor.

It would be easy to change the image of folk music. Needs money or it will happen gradually. Since there is little money in folk music - then it has to happen gradually.

As it happens this event is part of a whole day and is one hour. There is a parallel session going on at the same time with sword dancing, rapper dancing morris dancing and singing from the Askew Sisters.

Since you are keen on attending go to that instead.

And if no-one turns up and it is a disaster (one hour in day long event of 13.5 hours)then they wont do it again. If it is a great success they will.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: CET
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 04:25 PM

Diane, judging by the title of the workshop, I doubt that any young musician with the slightest interest in the tradition would be welcome. That would tend to make their stuff "folk". It sounds like the event is likely to attract sensitive guitar players who just love singing about their feelings.

Encouraging young songwriters is a fine idea, but why promote the foul canard that "folk" is antithetical to originality and musicianship?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 04:09 PM

if that is their aim ,I doubt if it will succeed,if Folk has a crap image changing the name will not alter anything ,what needs to be done is to change the image,that requires radical changes not cosmetic tinkering.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 11:12 AM

No. no. not sodding linedancing.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 11:08 AM

'eceilidh ' ??

Does that mean its online?

8-)

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 11:03 AM

As Blackadder said to Baldrick: 'Do you know what irony is?'
Baldrick: 'Er . . . it's like silvery and goldy . . . '

Doesn't it occur to any of you that the EFDSS is perhaps hoping to dispel the crap image 'f*lk' has among the public at large (like any old tripe performed with an acoustic guitar by people wearing jumpers and beards and tankards) and drawing in musicians with new ideas, an absence of outdated assumptions and an ability to compose and play in the tradition and reflecting peoples lives as they are in England today?

And the Knees Up eceilidh which forms part of the proceedings on Friday is absolutely nothing to do with D for D. Very much the opposite.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 10:53 AM

I was a 'Card Carrying Member' of the society for a number of years but let my membership lapse when my Local Committe organised a Dance for Dancers on National Folk Day - The day all memnbers were supposed to be carrying the message of Folk to the uninitiated !
For those not aware , A Dance For Dancers has NO Caller , and is only for those who know the dance beforehand !

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 10:23 AM

I must confess I've always found the EFDSS to be a bit of a strange organisation and for that reason have never got round to joining. I have always had the impression that strong factions within the organisation are much more interested in dance than song (and even find the song side a bit of an embarassment) - although the recent exemplary work of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library has gone some way towards redressing the balance.
Nevertheless, if I was a member I really think that this 'Folk free zone' thing would be a resigning matter - it's nothing short of a disgrace!

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: the button
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 07:06 PM

To be fair, it's only one part of a day-long event. But even so. Why have the only bit of it specifically for young performers as non-folk?

I also think Mike makes a very good point in his second paragraph.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 07:01 PM

I don't pretend to know much about the venue other than what I've read here, but it sure strikes me as a bit disingenuous and I agree with what Mike says. They'll be excluding a bunch of "folk" the younguns might really learn from and enjoy.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 06:54 PM

What on earth is the motive behind this strange piece of self-deprecation? Is it perhaps a pre-emptive cringe towards all those people who believe that anything labelled "folk" must be terminally uncool? If so, the stratagem seems unlikely to pull many of them in.   Turning one room in C# house into a "folk free zone" for one night won't decontaminate the old place sufficiently for style-conscious people with media-moulded tastes to feel safe in there.

Better stick to your guns Cecil! The F-word may be anathema to some, but many of us are still not embarrassed to use it in public. And if you really want to run an open mike night for aspiring young singer/song-writers (or rappers, or stand- up comics) – well, why not? There's a perfectly respectable case for describing all of these forms of self expression as "folk" arts. And if you accept that definition, why bother to proclaim a special folk-free zone for them? Let them come along and muck in with the rest of us!

Wassail!

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:32 PM

I've heard a joke like that before . . . .

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: the button
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:30 PM

Don't get me wrong, I've got nowt against songwriters, young or otherwise. I've even written the odd one myself.

Thing is, there's plenty of forums (fora?) for singer songwriters to perform their stuff. Quite what the EFDSS is doing hosting a session billed as a folk free zone is beyond me. Where's the f in EFDSS? one might ask. ;-)

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:05 PM

The point presumably is to bypass "what is folk?" and "is this folk?" - and an excellent idea too.

But why the ageism? - "young singers & songwriters"

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:02 PM

I agree with you Button.EFDSS are supposed to be promoting English folkdance and song,the music played on the night may well be this,but why not promote it as such,is folk music something to be ashamed of.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 01:31 PM

The Friday night (19 October) Knees Up ceilidh has Faustus, a band not fussed about what their music is called.
And the following Thursday C# hosts The Electric Proms, a tribute to Lal Waterson.
It all sounds better than usual for the venue.

Subject: EFDSS & 'Folk free zone'
From: the button
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 12:49 PM

I was somewhat surprised to learn that the EFDSS 75th anniversary celebration day will feature a "Folk Free Zone" session, billed as "an open mike session for young singers & songwriters."

Now, fair enough, there is another (longer) singaround-type session later in the evening. Still, it strikes me as odd to have such a session on such a day.

More details here: -

http://www.efdss.org/this_wk.htm#75th